MAGA's Worst Nightmare Exposes Trump's Lies; His Plan Implodes

Summary

IHIP News Podcast Summary

Episode: "MAGA's Worst Nightmare Exposes Trump's Lies; His Plan Implodes"

Date: July 26, 2026
Hosts: Jennifer Welch & Angie “Pumps” Sullivan
Special Guest: Julian Shapiro-Barnum

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Overview

In this upbeat, candid episode, Jennifer Welch and Angie Sullivan bring on viral personality Julian Shapiro-Barnum—creator of "Recess Therapy," host of "Outside Tonight," and author of How to Grow Up Without Becoming a Grown Up. Together, they delve into the realities and joys of being raised in a queer family, the coded bigotry weaponized against non-traditional families by conservative politics, the role of comedy and queer joy as resistance, and the importance of intentional, activist community building. Through Julian's stories—both funny and deeply personal—listeners hear firsthand what it means to thrive in a world often hostile to difference.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Introducing Julian Shapiro-Barnum: The “Conservative’s Worst Nightmare”

• [01:30] – [03:04]
  • Jennifer delivers an irreverent, “trigger-warning” intro for Julian, lampooning how right-wing media would supposedly panic at his bio: “He is bisexual and he was raised by 5. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5—gay [parents].”
  • Julian jokes back, “When I was... around high school, we started to joke that, like, I was a conservative's worst nightmare. Raised by big gay family. And I work with kids.” ([02:32])
  • Banter about AI characters and pronouns, transitioning into the “five gay parents” story.

2. Life in a Big Queer Family

• [03:57] – [08:35]
  • Julian narrates his family history: “My moms were Nicole and Lauren. They met in law school... asked their friends, my dad's, a gay couple... Michael was the sperm donor to both.” ([04:02]-[05:45])
  • Three households, siblings, and logistics: "Until I was 11, I would actually go between three houses every week... My parents just did, like, put so much effort into feeling like a cohesive family unit." ([06:10]-[06:24])
  • On being a rarity: "I've met maybe one to three other people my age who have had similar family structures." ([06:24])
  • The core emotion: “It’s just a lot of phone calls... that's the most I've ever talked about my family... But my family has defined my life. It's something that I've always just been unbelievably proud of... It's just my normal.” ([07:44]-[08:14])

Notable Quote:

• “I don’t have any frame of reference for what it’s like to have straight parents or two parents.” – Julian ([08:10])

3. Facing Bigotry and the Myth of “Traditional” Families

• [08:35] – [11:45]
  • Jennifer highlights the intentionality of queer family planning: “...Gay people really want to have these children. This isn’t a drunken one night stand... This is a very intentional parenting.” ([08:35])
  • Criticism of “traditional family values” as bigoted code: “That is just coded bigotry... to diminish you, to diminish your mothers, to diminish your fathers.” ([08:43])
  • Julian recounts activism: “A huge part of my childhood was going to marriage equality protests... My moms took me and my siblings to Washington... We protested as children for my parents to have the right to get married... Even now, you can only have two legal parents.” ([09:44]-[10:23])
  • Emotional reflection: “There’s this, like, picture... of my mom... She’s like yelling and my T-shirt says ‘bad law’ on it. And it was just like... from such a young age, we were just like, fighting for very basic rights for her.” ([10:41]-[11:02])

Notable Quote:

• “We raise kids to believe that their voices matter and can make change... I think to be an adult is to believe that your voice does nothing.” – Julian ([32:22]-[32:43])

4. Comedy as Resistance: Launching "Outside Tonight"

• [12:01] – [19:11]
  • Discussion of the right’s fear-driven attacks on late-night comedy and queer representation.
  • Julian’s show origin: “Outside Tonight is a project that I started in 2020... It was Covid... put a desk and some chairs on the street one night... and I would just go, how are you doing right now?... But everyone was opening up to me.” ([13:38]-[14:26])
  • The motivation: “Not to save late night, but because at its core, sitting outside and talking to people spoke to me in a deep way.” ([14:53]-[15:03])
  • Democratizing late night: “I wanted to do away with the studio model... which to me is about censoring. I wanted... anyone just walking down the street... can walk up and get the show.” ([15:18]-[16:09])
  • “Outside Tonight is super queer. It has a very clear belief... The bodies we put on the show, the space we’re taking up with the show—you know what we believe.” ([17:45]-[18:07])

Notable Stories:

• Hosts loved the “gay dog competition” episode: “Owners made the case their dogs were gay and voted on the dog’s gayness... I loved it.” ([16:41])

Notable Quote:

• “A way to be political is to normalize the culture around queerness—100%—and to platform queer voices and say... look, we’re happy.” – Jennifer ([18:07])

5. Queer Joy & Joyful Resistance

• [19:07] – [21:08]
  • Jennifer and Julian agree that showcasing joy is a radical act: “To show joy and fun... That in itself is a radical act, especially at a time like now.” – Julian ([19:07]-[19:11])
  • Julian gives a heartfelt shout-out to Roman, Jennifer’s son, who worked behind the scenes on Outside Tonight—describing the importance of positive, welcoming, and inclusive workspaces. ([19:17]-[20:20])

6. Recess Therapy and Kids as Truth-Tellers

• [21:08] – [26:09]
  • Clip from “Recess Therapy,” highlighting kids’ honesty and insight.
  • Julian: “I love working with kids so much... It’s only parents I ever have issues with.” ([21:43]-[21:54])
  • On interviewing politicians and kids together: “They offer such simplified solutions to really complicated issues... Kids just see right into the humanity of it. They don’t see all the bullshit.” ([24:03]-[24:51])
  • Anecdote: Julian narrates the surreal experience of being at a real press conference with toddlers and politicians, and the positive impact of putting kids at the center of political conversations. ([24:53]-[25:58])

7. Maintaining Joy in a Hostile Political Climate

• [27:43] – [30:37]
  • Jennifer presses Julian on how to maintain optimism and joy in a nation riddled with reactionary attacks and justices being rolled back.
  • Julian: “All you can do sometimes is put it out of mind... sometimes you have to just have joy.” ([29:01])
  • Community is key: “You have to have your coalition and community of like-minded, brave and powerful people... My sister is a community organizer... We’re all working toward this vision of the future.” ([29:08])
  • Joyful resistance: “Proliferating joy and queer joy. That is resistance. That is a powerful act. And not letting all of that hate silence your voice... The second that does—that’s losing.” ([30:02]-[30:37])

Notable Quote:

• "Joy and fun—in itself, that's a radical act, especially now." – Julian ([19:11])

8. Julian’s Book: How to Grow Up Without Becoming a Grown Up

• [31:00] – [34:32]
  • Julian introduces his new book: “It’s all about how to use the philosophies and the mindset of children and bring it into your adult life... I started taking notes and collecting essays... why I think adults would be happier if they acted more like kids.” ([31:23]-[32:08])
  • On activism: “There’s a whole chapter about how the way kids stand up to injustice is something to emulate... We need to be as confident as kids.” ([32:08]-[32:43])
  • On family: “I am who I am because of my parents. They just put all of their love and support into me and my siblings... It feels hard to fail when you have such a strong support system.” ([33:50]-[34:30])

Notable Quote:

• “If you ever go to court, don’t assume I’ll represent you. Depends on what you did.” – Julian quoting his mom ([35:00]-[35:13])

9. How to Connect With Julian

• [35:41] – [36:09]
  • Julian’s socials and show info: @julianmsb, How to Grow Up Without Becoming a Grown Up, "Outside Tonight," "Recess Therapy," "Celebrity Substitute."

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Memorable Moments & Quotes (With Timestamps)

• “I was a conservative’s worst nightmare: raised by a big gay family. And I work with kids.” – Julian ([02:44])
• “It just is my normal... I don’t have any frame of reference for what it’s like to have straight parents or two parents.” – Julian ([08:10])
• “That is just coded bigotry... to diminish you, to diminish your mothers, to diminish your fathers.” – Jennifer ([08:43])
• “A huge part of my childhood was going to marriage equality protests... fighting for my parents to have the right to get married.” – Julian ([09:44])
• “The fact that we are all working together gives me hope... it’s a balancing act.” – Julian ([29:08]-[29:54])
• “All you can do sometimes is... just have joy.” – Julian ([29:01])
• “Proliferating joy and queer joy... that is resistance.” – Julian ([30:04])
• “I am who I am because of my parents... It feels hard to fail when you have such a strong support system.” – Julian ([34:04]-[34:30])
• Julian, to Fox producers: “Fuck you.” ([36:14])

---

Recommended Segments

• Julian’s Family Story & Queer Family Life ([02:32] – [08:35])
• On the Bigotry of “Traditional” Values & Activism ([08:35] – [11:45])
• Outside Tonight: Comedy as Joyful Political Resistance ([13:38] – [18:07])
• Recess Therapy & Kids’ Take on Politics ([21:08] – [26:09])
• How to Grow Up Without Becoming a Grown Up: The Book ([31:00] – [34:32])

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Tone & Style

The conversation is open, irreverent, and unapologetically political with frequent moments of humor and warmth. The dynamic between hosts and guest brings out both personal vulnerability and sharp social commentary—delivered always with a sense of hope and community-mindedness.

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Final Thoughts

This episode is both a celebration of queer resilience and an incisive critique of the reactionary, fear-based politics trying to erase hard-won progress. Julian’s stories and projects (from viral kid interviews to democratized late night and now a book) are recurring touchstones for how joy, activism, and visibility can be powerful forms of resistance in the current climate.

---

For more from Julian:

• Instagram: @julianmsb
• YouTube: Outside Tonight, Recess Therapy
• Book: How to Grow Up Without Becoming a Grown Up (out August 4th)

---

Listen for:
Joyful resistance, radical acceptance, and the empowering force of queer community—even inside MAGA country.

Transcript

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[Car Buyer]

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[Carvana Advertiser]

Limitations and exclusions may apply. See our seven day return [e-mail] all right.

[Interviewer]

To the Fox News producers. To the Newsmax producers. To Breitbart. To Libs of TikTok. I would like to issue a trigger warning regarding my next guest. He is bisexual and he was raised by 5. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Gay.

[Interviewer]

He was raised in the crime ridden, hellscape, socialist mom, Donna. Stan. Brooklyn woke Sharia out the wazoo. He is also the host of Recess Therapy, Celebrity substitute, the new YouTube hit sensation outside tonight. And the author of a new book called how to Grow up without becoming a Grownup that comes out this August 4th. Please welcome to I've Had It Weekend. Julian Shapiro Barnum.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Julian, that was the best intro I've ever gotten.

[Interviewer]

Well, you know, these Fox producers watch me.

[Car Buyer]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

All the time. And so I had to issue a trigger warning because you are what they warn everybody about.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

So when I was a. So, yes, this is true. I have five gay parents.

I was raised by three moms and two dads.

And like, when I was, you know, around high school, we started to joke

that, like, I was a conservative's worst nightmare.

Raised. And even now, like, raised by big gay family.

And I. And I work with kids.

[Car Buyer]

Right.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

I know.

[Interviewer]

If you could have only shown up with, like, blue hair.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

I know.

[Interviewer]

I should lean in, maybe a bunch of, like, pins.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

They're really.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

They're really my pronouns.

More.

[Interviewer]

What are your pronouns?

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

You know, I'm going to disappoint.

[Interviewer]

He, him, mine, or she?

[Child]

Her.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Look at us. Sis, let me ask you.

[Interviewer]

Let me ask you a question.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Please do.

[Interviewer]

We were talking about this on our other podcast the other day. An AI actress or actor?

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Sure.

[Interviewer]

I do not think an AI character should get human pronouns. I think an AI character.

[Child Interviewee]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Is an it.

[Child Interviewee]

It.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Well, I don't even.

Look, let's just. Let's.

[Interviewer]

I don't think we should humanize the robots.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

I don't want to even get that far with it. I don't want. I. Look, I have a BFA in acting, and it wasn't fun to get. I don't think we should even entertain the AI actor thing.

[Interviewer]

I agree.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

I think it's boring.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

I think it's hard to look at. And I agree. Let's not give them pronouns unless they ask for it.

[Interviewer]

No, no. I don't think we should be subservient to these robots, but I want to dive into the five gay parents.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Let's do it.

[Child]

Okay.

[Interviewer]

Let's do roll call. Start.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

You want the story?

[Interviewer]

I want the whole story. It's fascinating.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

So here's how it happened. Okay, so my mom's Nicole and Lauren. They met in law school, and they were a couple, a lesbian couple, no less. And they wanted to have a baby.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

And so they asked their friends, my dad's a gay couple, Michael and Lauren, if they would be the sperm donor

to each of them.

And so they had me and my

brother and sister, Ellis and Shay.

And then when I was 2, my moms broke up and they met other women and they raised. So when I was a kid, there

were six parents, but there was an amicable uncoupling, and there's really five.

But so from, like, you know, 2 years old to 11 years old, I was raised in Park Slope by six

gay parents, me and my brother and sister. Okay, Brother and sister. Gay also.

[Car Buyer]

Really?

[Interviewer]

So big genetics are strong, right?

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Can't get rid of it.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

But.

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Okay, so lots of questions. So the mom. What were the mom's names?

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Nicole, Sophia and Lauren.

Dad.

[Interviewer]

Lauren also Lauren.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Exactly.

[Interviewer]

Okay, Nicole, Sophia and Lauren. So when they approach the gay male couple, how do you decide who gets whose sperm? I mean, that's like, fascinating to me.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

You know, I always like to imagine what that conversation was like. I've asked them about it and I, you know, I, I don't 100 know what happened, but I like to imagine that they, like took them out to a nice dinner and they were like, hey, you know, so like, also we'd like, love, love to have your sperm and also the unagi role, but I think, I think it was actually a multi year conversation. And my one dad, Michael, was the

sperm donor to both of them, both my mom.

So my brother and sister and I have the same dad.

And we were all raised as siblings together.

[Interviewer]

Okay. When you say you were all raised together, I picture like this hippie, gay, like, commune where they're basket weaving and doing things like that. What does that mean?

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

It means so we had three households. Each couple had their own house. You know, as couples often.

[Interviewer]

Were they close to each other?

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Yeah. All Cobble hill and then two in Park Slope.

[Carvana Advertiser]

Okay. Okay.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Until I was 11, I would actually go between three houses every week, which I think probably was a lot. I think it felt normal at the time. But then I moved to Philadelphia when I was 11 and I think it was a little bit. It was nice to take a step

back and kind of settle down.

But my siblings and I would do family week activities as the whole family. And my parents just did, like, put so much effort into feeling like a cohesive family unit. And I think, you know, at this point in my life, I've met maybe one to three other people, other people my age who have had similar family structures. Like, there really aren't that many kids out there who have this. But the, the kind of unifying thread there is like, I think my moms felt like the odds were stacked against them, like they were trying this family experiment.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

I think it felt so important to succeed.

[Interviewer]

And empowering.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Exactly. From like a personal level, from like the world was against some level. And I think they just needed to show that a family like this could work and did.

[Interviewer]

Okay. And then when the moms were pregnant, were they pregnant at the same time?

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

No, my. My siblings are two years younger than me.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So were they pregnant the same time then?

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Oh, they're twins. So me.

And then two years later, my other mom got pregnant.

[Interviewer]

Gotcha. Okay, so what is the dad's name? Is this sperm donor?

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Michael?

[Interviewer]

Michael can really shoot it.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Yeah, he was. He was moving. He was moving and grooving.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Way to go. Shout out.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

To shout out.

[Car Buyer]

Michael.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Shout out, dad.

[Interviewer]

Shout out to those strong swimmers. Okay, so you have.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

That's the most I've ever talked about my family.

But last.

[Thrive Cosmetics Advertiser]

I love it.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

It's amazing. Last thing I'll say about it is, like, you know, I. My family has been something that, like,

has defined my life.

It's something that, like, I've always just been unbelievably proud of and like, excited about because I think I'm. Yeah, I know it's unique, but like, people are always like, what was it like? What was it like?

It just is my normal.

[Child Interviewee]

Right.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Like, I don't have any frame of

reference for what it's like to have straight parents or two parents.

And I think that's like, maybe my big takeaway from it is like, I think people from the outside in are always kind of like, man, that's so interesting.

But it, like, wasn't some fantastical, crazy thing.

Like, it was, you know, like, I do have five parents.

It's just a lot of phone calls, right? It's just a lot crazy.

[Interviewer]

It's that many more people to love you. And I've often thought that gay people. It's really intentional family planning. 100 gay people really want to have these children. This isn't a drunken one night stand and you're like, oh, I'm broke, I'm a train wreck. I just did a bunch of blow. Right? Like, this is a very intentional. Yeah, parenting. And when you hear Maggie speak about traditional families, because I always say that is just coded bigotry, 100% to try to make families like yours feel less than and to diminish you, to diminish your mothers, to diminish your fathers and say that you are not acceptable. And how do you feel when you hear this talk in this rise of all of these quote unquote traditional family values, especially juxtaposing that when you look at Trump, who has three baby mamas, five kids banging porn stars, Elon Musk, God only knows how many. I mean, that deadbeat. So how do you. How do you feel and how do your moms and dads feel when they hear that?

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

So, like a huge part of actually talk about it in my book.

There's a whole chapter about this.

But, like, a huge part of my

childhood was going to, like, marriage equality

protests and, like, was marching. And like, my moms took me and my siblings to Washington. We, we went to city hall. Like, we protested as children for my parents to have the right to get married and for the right for our parents to be recognized. Like, even this is something that we're still dealing with. But, like, you can only have two legal parents. I can only have two legal guardians. So, like, my dad had to give up his legal guardianship of me so

that my other mom could adopt me.

But, like, that's not the case.

That's not the reality of my family.

So, like, I. My entire life has been steeped in this, like, fight for the mainstream to

recognize my family as a family.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

And like, so on one hand, like,

this is nothing new.

Like, it's just been there the whole time. There's this, like, picture that at times can make me cry to look at of my mom. It was like in the. In the New York Times or something. It's. I'm like 5 and my mom has me on her shoulder and she's like, like, yelling and my T shirt says bad law on it. And it was just like, from such a young age, we.

We were just like, fighting for very basic rights for her.

And I just. It makes me emotional because I'm sure

it was so comforting to have a

kid, like, love her that much. I don't know.

Like, I'm sure that was really comforting.

But anyway, like, it's just been the norm and.

And I'm sure it's going to be

the norm for the rest of my life, but, like, it just does.

I, like, can't even comprehend it.

[Child]

That.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

That's kind of my. It's like that's. I'm sure that's how so much of this feels where it's like we look at the right calling for basic human

rights to be stripped and like, I just can't. It just feels like a lack of understanding of humanity.

Like, I don't have anything nuanced to say.

It just doesn't make sense to me.

[Thrive Cosmetics Advertiser]

Right.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

It just feel. They don't. They. It's.

It's complete bigotry.

[Interviewer]

It's complete bigotry. And I think that the conservative male is a very scared person. These people are scared of books, libraries, drag queens, comedians, late night talk shows, everything.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So they've gone after, as you know, Stephen Colbert has been sacrificed for the ego and for the fears of these submissive men. I call all of the sycophants that circle the President the submissive wives because they could put class for the trad wives with how they don't stand up for anything. And with late night being such a political thing right now, Jimmy Kimmel, Stephen Colbert. And Trump gets his feelings hurt very, very easily by late night. Comedians that joke about presidents, and that's a part of the American experience. All late night hosts do this. They dabble into politics, they make you giggle. Both sides, you know, are. The joke could be on both. So in this climate, you have started a new late night show called Outside tonight. And for my listeners, it's on YouTube. And he films all over New York in a different location. And I think this is a really brave moment to embark on late night because it's not just late night right now. This really is a much bigger thing because this regime is attacking comedy, particularly late night television. So tell me why you wanted to do this. And then also, is that voice of the regime always kind of monitoring everything that we're all doing? I'm sure. High Fox. Hi, five gay parents. Sorry, but tell me about it. Tell my viewers about Outside.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Oh, my God, I have so much to say.

And yes, let me. Let me synthesize my thoughts. But okay, so basically, like, outside tonight is a project that I started in 2020, kind of that summer during BLM. I come. My background is in comedy. I come from theater. And that summer, I was looking for a way to just, like, connect with people. I felt like it was Covid. Everyone was protesting. I felt, like, so isolated and, like, scared and alone. And so I put a desk and

some chairs on the street one night

and put on a show called how

are you doing right now?

Not the smartest name, but anyone could

sit, and I would just go, how are you doing right now?

And, like, that was the show, but it, like, everyone was opening up to

me, and we were talking about politics. We were talking about, like, humanity.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

And I got a bunch of my friends involved, and we filmed four of those episodes. And I was like, this is the

best thing I've ever done.

I wasn't good at it, but it

made me so happy.

I went back to college. I did my senior year of college. I almost didn't because I like doing

the show so much.

Then I started interviewing kids, and that

turned into my career.

But the whole time, I was like,

I need to do this outdoor late night show.

Not because I was like, I need to save late night, or because of any, you know, delusions of grandeur. Just because at its core, sitting outside and talking to people spoke to me

in such a deep way. It resonated.

Then, like, two years ago, I was like, oh, I think I can do this now. I think my career is in a place where I have the resources to enlist the people I need to help

me make this and now we're doing it.

The whole idea behind it is like, I wanted to do away with the studio model, which clearly is all about control and has become like a way to censor. I wanted to do away with the studio itself, which to me is about democratizing a medium that has always been

very inaccessible to the public.

You know, late night as a genre

was all about bringing the entertainment industry

into your living room.

Like, that's why it was created.

But like, we don't need that anymore. Like the entertainment industry is everywhere.

You can get it all the time.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

So I wanted to create a show that like anyone just walking down the street, if you hear music, if you hear people talking, you can walk up and get the show. And not just that it's celebrities, but

also just like everyday people being on the show.

It was this. I was like, how can we create

like a democratized version of late night?

I think that's what's more interesting right now. Instead of this like top down, this is what's happening in culture. It's like, let's create culture. Let's like, let's show my favorite pieces

of culture, my favorite people in comedy, in music.

So it was just like it was a reframing instead of like, this is what's happening in the entertainment industry. It was like, this is happening in

my corner of the entertainment industry.

[Interviewer]

I loved the one that I watched. You did a gay dog competition and listener. The owners brought their dogs out and they made the case like as to their dogs were gay and they voted on the dog's gayness. I mean, that kind of stuff is just so fun. I loved it.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

But. But like, to that point, like, I think there are people who are talking

about the state of politics or like say state of the industry. That's not what I meant to say.

But there, there are people who commenting on politics in late night, so. Well, like that is a genre that is a side of late night. And there are people do it who

are doing it better than I could.

Another part of late night is the

like variety comedy show.

[Child Interviewee]

Right.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

My issue is that it's either super political or completely apolitical. I feel like the comedic side of late night used to have a clear political voice to it, but has lost that, I think, because it's either you're like completely far left or far right, or you're appeasing to everybody.

You're completely down the middle.

I was like, how can we create an alt comedy, lefty late night show? Like outside Tonight is super queer. It has like a very clear belief to it. We're not like spoofing the news, talking about the news, but like the bodies

we put on the show, the space

we're taking up with the show, like you know what we believe. And I think that is powerful in its own right.

[Interviewer]

Don't you think, Julian, that sometimes a way to be political is to normalize the culture around queerness 100% and to platform queer voices and say, you know, look, we're happy. We are normal functioning people. Regardless of what you hear on Fox News, regardless of what you hear on your Instagram or TikTok feed. There's a whole world out here that exists. And you can either tune in, if, if we terrify you, then you don't have to watch it because as I mentioned, and this has been scientifically proven, conservatives are very fear based people. So somebody like you scares them very much. But I think that that is a more important part of what we have to do in this era is normalize the culture of acceptance. And not just acceptance, but radical acceptance. Really radically accepting people where they are. Unless you're a Trumper, no acceptance.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

I think, yeah, I think it's just important to show like joy and fun

and that in itself is a radical act, especially at a time like now.

[Thrive Cosmetics Advertiser]

I know.

[Interviewer]

Genuinely, I know.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Can I shout? Can I do a major shout out? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Your son Roman worked in the art department on Outside tonight and went be above and beyond. He, he brought his A game. He showed up and worked so hard. We, we were filming on the street in the Sun. We filmed nine episodes in a month and he was like mvp. Everyone loved working with him. He was so wonderful.

He talked a lot about how he had never worked on a set before

and you would never have been able to tell. He, like, really just was such a

highlight and we loved working with him. And everyone said he looks like me, which was very funny.

Everyone would call him Little Julian.

[Interviewer]

That's what he said.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Very funny.

[Interviewer]

He said that sometimes when they were setting up the, you know, camera angles, I'd say, Roman, for me, Julian, because y' all are the same.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

But he just was like such a joy to work with and he's so professional and I think just will add to any place he is and you

should hire him if you're watching, you

[Interviewer]

know, thank you for saying that. He had the best summer. He loved working with you.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

It was hard work.

[Interviewer]

Yes, it's hard work. And I think that, you know, workplaces, whatever the person at the top, whatever they set as the mood that trickles down. And so he had the best experience. He had so much fun. Thank you for having me.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Of course.

[Interviewer]

Okay. I want my audience to get to know you more. The people who know you know you. But as we all know, there are all these little corners of the Internet, and I have my little corner here. And you have a show that went completely viral called Recess Therapy, and it's massive, massive on social media. And I want to play my audience a clip of you interviewing. Interviewing Rihanna. Let's check the clip.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Miles, what's like the best way to make a new friend?

[Child Interviewee]

I actually just wander around until somebody wants to play with me.

[Car Buyer]

Really?

[Thrive Cosmetics Advertiser]

Oh.

[Interviewer]

Because, you know, you're the prize.

[Child Interviewee]

I don't really know how to do it, but I wander around. That's just what I do.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Have you ever lied before, Miles?

[Child Interviewee]

Like a few times.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Rhiannon, have you ever lied?

[Child Interviewee]

Never.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Not once.

[Carvana Seller]

Right?

[Child Interviewee]

Only maybe white lies don't lie anymore.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

It's all

[Interviewer]

so the. That is a huge, huge hit. And I just want to ask you, do you like kids?

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

I love working with kids so much. I, I genuinely do. I, I. All kids, all kids. It's only parents that I ever have issues.

[Interviewer]

See, I'm more a case to case basis.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Oh, really?

[Interviewer]

Kids? Yeah.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

No.

[Interviewer]

What do you do when you have an kid?

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

I don't work with them again. No, I really, you know, it's, it's funny. Like with, with Recess Therapy, it's like

five to ten minute interviews with my

other show, Celebrity Substitute, which is where I go into a.

We work with the Department of Education.

We go into a different school every episode, and we have a celebrity come teach for the day. I don't meet those kids until the morning.

And that's a real toss up because it's like I show up at 8am

and I meet 12 kids and I like, I'm gonna then be with them

for like, five hours. And that's always like a personality.

[Carvana Seller]

Oh, yeah.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Toss up.

But it's like I have to love

them for them to love me.

[Child]

Of course.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

And so it is this, like, labor of love. And I feel like whenever I meet them, it's less about, like, me liking them and more about me, like, desperately

trying to get them to like me.

[Carvana Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So Zoron deployed your skills. This is one of my favorites. So earlier this year, you were at a press conference where the mayor unveiled his child care plan alongside toddlers and were there as a member of the press, and you asked very important questions to these little New Yorkers let's play.

[Carvana Advertiser]

This clip

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

is a shark.

That's honestly such a good one.

[Child Interviewee]

Is a goat.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Oh, and a goat.

Thank you all for your answer.

[Child Interviewee]

And my favorite one is a gold snake that can move. It has gold eyes and it had. And it has a long tail, A super, super duper tail. And it can snap cars and crash the cars and those two cars can get fired.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

So just to make sure I'm getting all that. That's a golden snake with gold eyes and super long.

And crash cars.

[Child Interviewee]

Yeah. And they, and they get fired.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Thank you for your answer.

[Interviewer]

So.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

That was insane.

[Interviewer]

That is so cool.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

I, I've, you know, obsessed with our mayor.

[Interviewer]

Oh my God, he's like incredible.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

The best.

I just, I was just listening to his interview with the Daily and he's just like so well spoken.

Anyway, I've worked with him a bunch of times.

I've had AOC on my show. Like, I love talking with kids and politicians about the state of the world. I think they offer such simplified solutions to really complicated issues. I think they're able to like see through bullshit really easily. Like to them, these like really partisan issues that like have been overthought and like overcomplicated. Kids just see right into the humanity of it and they don't, they don't see all the bullshit. Like they're just able to be like, no people should have this because they deserve this. So I've had a lot of having like Zoron and AOC on and Brad Lander. Like it's brought me so much joy

having those conversations with kids.

But that was such a crazy moment

because it was a real press conference, brought these kids out and I'd never been to a press conference before and I was like, oh my God, am I ruining this whole thing? But it was so cute.

[Interviewer]

No, it was so cute. And I think it's. He's done such a good job governing. I think when he brings out these kids and he shows you. This is something we want, Governor. Yes, the government to provide universal pre K. And this is what these kids look like that live in the city. You know, it's really difficult for most people. Now granted, there's cultists in this country that would go, those kids, our parents are lazy. But the majority, the overwhelming majority of us see that and think, yes, their parents work hard. They work maybe harder not to pay

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

for child care, but for high quality right, child care. Like, I think what he does such a good job of time and time again is just like kind of what

I was saying the kids do is

like, not making these basic things, issues, like making things obvious and like, of

course buses should be fast and free. Of course people shouldn't pay more for rent. Like, of course there should be free child care. Like, they're just so matter of fact.

And I think having the kids there

was such, like, a brilliant way of illustrating that.

He also makes it fun. He's.

[Interviewer]

Yes. Yeah, he makes it fun. He's an A plus. What do your moms think of Zoran?

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

They love him. They.

[Interviewer]

They.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

They don't. They live in New Jersey. But they're very charmed by him.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

My mom, when we had AOC on

the show, my mom never comes to the shoots.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

But she was like, I have. You have to let me come. She was like, I just have to meet her.

And my mom came to the shoot

and she stood, like, far away and just watched. And at the end, she went up and she shook her hand, and it was like a really big deal.

[Interviewer]

She's so proud.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

So proud.

[Interviewer]

It's incredible. You know, I always say that I know a lot of women. I'm from Oklahoma City originally, and I know a lot of women who have the luxury of saying, I'm just not political. And these are white women that are married and their husbands do well, and so their bank account and their complexion excludes them from having to give a shit about politics. And so when I think about your moms and their fight for social justice in raising you and your siblings, the twins, how personal that is, and how every person should have the right to marry whom they want, breed if they so choose to procreate. And this regime is really trying to backtrack on all of that stuff. So combining, like all of this joy, you're a very joyful person. You come in here, you sit down, you're happy. You live in Zoron's New York, which a lot of times you don't feel the MAGA stuff in New York, it's

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

a safe haven, right?

[Interviewer]

But it's. But it's there. And as. As we are all trying to navigate, and my listeners kind of go through this too, is we're all trying to navigate our place as Americans. And as you sit down and you make this really joyful outside denied, or you. Or you interview those adorable kids and. And then there's this incubation going on over here where everything that your mother's fought for and the Harvey Milks and all of the progress, and particularly if you look even to black Americans, the dismantling of the Voting Rights act that has taken place. All of the joy that people on the right feel about taking those rights away from families like yours. How, how do you reconcile that and how do you still maintain joy at the same time?

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Wow. You know, I, I mean, honestly, I think that there, like it's two things.

Here's my, here's my honest answer.

I think all you can do sometimes is

put it out of mind sometimes,

which is a privileged thing to do. But I think sometimes you have to just have joy.

[Interviewer]

I agree.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

I think that's an important thing to do. But then also like you have to have your coalition and community of like, like minded, brave and powerful people who are working together to fight against that. Like everybody in my community. Like my sister is a community organizer and runs a mutual aid group called we the People. Like the people I surround myself with. Like we are all working towards this vision of the future that isn't that. And I feel like the fact that we are all working together gives me hope as well. So it's, it's, it's a balancing act.

[Interviewer]

Do you think Outside Tonight and it being queer, do you think that that is a joyful form of resistance?

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

100%.

[Interviewer]

You think?

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

I think. Well, that's the thing. It's like kind of the end of the last thought is it's like fight, but also enjoy yourself and create and create. And then also like proliferating joy and queer joy. And that is resistance. That, that is a powerful act. And like not taking that for granted and like not letting all of that

hate silence your voice at all or ever.

And the second that that does that,

that, that's losing to some extent.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. When I watched some of your shows Outside Tonight, which comes out every Wednesday.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Every Wednesday.

[Interviewer]

Every Wednesday on outside tonight on YouTube, I thought, you know, these are great ways of resistance. These are great ways to actively feel joy and resist in the middle of what we're all experiencing right now. And you have a book coming out.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

This is my book, how to Grow up without becoming a Grown up.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

This book really is. As we were having this conversation, like everything that we were just talking about.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

It's all about like how to use the philosophies and the mindset of children and bring it into your adult life. I believe that like the way kids.

Sure.

Like the whole idea is that like, yes, I did recess there.

I've been doing recess there for five years.

I've interviewed upwards of 6,000 children in

the past five years.

And the things they say are Brilliant

and hilarious and sweet and cute.

And if you want to hear those

things, you can watch the show.

But at a certain point, I started to feel like the more impactful thing was the way they were moving through the world and the way they were navigating their friendships and their anger, and really, the way they were living was

more interesting to me.

So I started taking notes and collecting essays, and basically, I, like, put together my hope for a compelling case of

why I think adults would be happier if they acted more like kids.

I have a whole chapter in here, basically, about how I think the way kids stand up to injustice is something to emulate. My whole thought process behind it is that, like, we raise kids to believe

that their voices matter and can make change.

We raise kids to believe that, like, these very small things, like recycling and like, going to a protest can change the world. And I think to be an adult is to believe that your voice does nothing. I think a lot of people start to feel like, oh, my God, these issues are so big that there's, like,

nothing I can do to change anything.

And I think that is losing. And I think we need to. We need to be as confident as kids, because I think then we train

ourselves

to do little things, and little

things grow into big things.

Like, kids are so willing to go

out and pick up trash.

And, yes, that is so small, but they are willing to do anything. And I think training yourself to have the idea, translate it into action, and

then once you're in the habit of that, those actions can grow and grow and grow versus doing nothing at all.

[Interviewer]

Right. And how much do you think your mothers and fathers informed your plight to do this kind of active, joyful resistance during this time? Like, your mother's fought the good fight where she has you and she has her fist up so that you could resist in a really joyful way because you exist. She fought to have you, and so now your resistance is more joyful than. Than theirs probably was back in the day.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

I am who I am because of my parents. I feel like they just put all of their love and support into me and my siblings growing up and, like, believed in me at every single stage

of my life, through and through. Like, I have never not felt like they didn't support me.

And I feel like that has just bolstered me to this place where, like, all I have is their support now. And so I feel like I can

go out and try anything and believe

myself and do anything, and I know that they have my back. So I do feel like they like, they filled my cup up so much that I can kind of like, you know, it feels hard to fail when

you have such a strong support system, is how I feel.

[Interviewer]

And I think that. I think that's what the best parenting is.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

It is.

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

It really is. I think that the joy that I've experienced from the LGBTQ+ community is one of the best parts of my life. Especially when I lived in Oklahoma and everybody was so homogeneous. And so the LGBTQ plus community was something because I'm not religious, not Republican, and I felt more at home with them. It's just universal, radical acceptance.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

But my mom always said, mom's a lawyer, okay?

She says, if you ever go to court, don't assume I'll represent you. Said it depends on what you did.

[Interviewer]

Is she a criminal defense lawyer?

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

She's a family court lawyer, so it

wouldn't really make sense for her to represent me anyway. But she doesn't have my back.

[Interviewer]

Unless you knock somebody out.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Exactly. Well, then maybe she'll help me out. Yeah, my mom let me censor myself. No, I won't. My mom always was like, if you ever get somebody pregnant, just have it. I really want grandchildren. And I was like, mom, not ready

to have kids yet.

[Interviewer]

Julian Shapiro Bonham. Tell the I've had it community how they can find you all of your shows, where they can sub and where they can follow you on social media.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

All right. Hi, everybody. Thank you so much for listening. I'm Julian Shrew Barnum. You can follow me @julianmsb on Instagram. You can check out my book, how

to Grow Up Without Becoming a Grown

up on, you can Google it or there's a link in my bio. If you want to watch my late

night show, it's called Outside Tonight. If you want to watch Recess Therapy, it's called Recess Therapy. And if you want to watch my other show where I have celebrities teach at public schools, it's called Celebrity Substitute. I need to take a break soon, but I'm not going to because I love doing what I do.

[Interviewer]

Julian, thank you so much. And to the Fox producers that had to watch this for content.

[Julian Shapiro-Barnum]

Fuck you.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, fuck you. Fuck you, little twats. All right, Julian, thank you so much.

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