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- [00:00]
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Jennifer
Every time there's an election. Yeah, caravans, migrants, always. They're all these criminals are coming across the border.
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Paola Ramos
Trans migrants. Yeah, that one. That one's the best. So it is y. They're going to eat you. Yeah. Yeah. All right.
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Jennifer
Paula Ramos is an Emmy award winning journalist, contributor for Ms. Now Telemundo and author of Defectors the Rise of the Latino Far right and what it means for America. She also hosts a podcast with her dad, Jorge Ramos, called the Moment, and she joins us today on ihip News. Paula, did I say it right?
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Paola Ramos
You got it right, actually, yeah.
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Jennifer
Oh, good, good. That's one of my favorite because where I come from, it's Paula.
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Paola Ramos
I know. Paola, Paula, all sorts of things. So you did very well.
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Jennifer
Okay, great. I think what we have to and we don't cover this that much, but there are segments of the United States where we have people that are here and they're not going anywhere. We have an Arab, Muslim population. We also have this fabulous, growing, multicultural Latino population that I love that I think is just such an asset to America and This voting block is not a monolith.
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Paola Ramos
No.
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Jennifer
And everybody's jockeying for their vote. Everybody's trying to understand. So Trump got 46 of Latino voters in the 2024 election. What do you think?
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Paola Ramos
He's one Latino man. He won that vote.
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Jennifer
What do you think they see in him?
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Paola Ramos
I mean, so right before the election, right before November 2024, when they asked most Latino voters, do you think that Donald Trump is talking about you when he's insulting immigrants? Like, do you think he is criminalizing you? The majority of Latino voters said no. The majority of Latino voters did not make the connection between Trump's words and them. And so I think now fast forward to where we are. I think a lot of people are coming to terms with this idea that regardless of how many generations you've been in this country and regardless of how American you feel in Trump's America, you don't belong. Now, that doesn't mean that that's a vote for Democrats at all, which I think that's where Democrats get it wrong. But what it does mean is that that 48% saw something in Trump. And I think, I mean, we can get into the what it is, but I think the, what I always remind myself is that to be Latino or an immigrant does not make you immune to anti immigrant rhetoric. It does not make you immune to anti blackness, does not make you immune to transphobia, which was also a big issue. And the, the painful journey of assimilating in this country and wanting to belong so badly in the, in group, like, that's something that we go through a lot in our own home countries is, I think in Trump they saw power and they saw an entry point into whiteness. They saw themselves as part of a group because they didn't want to be cast with those other bad immigrants. They wanted to prove to this Trump world that they were not those bad guys. So there's, it's, to me, it goes beyond politics. There's a lot of psychology there. There's a lot of pain.
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Jennifer
Okay, so let me ask you this. Now, we have, we're going to have a generation of people just from these close to 18 months where children's memories are going to be hiding. They're going to have a memory of their parents sitting them down and saying, you can't go to school today. Or they're going to have a memory of coming home from school and a parent is gone. And we're going to have, we have victims of bigotry in the legalized systemic targeting. It's called the Kavanaugh Rule. Judge Kavanal, he doesn't like his name associated with that, which is why I like to bring it up every chance I can get that you can pull somebody over who looks or sounds Latino. So after that, after you, these, this group has fallen prey to the horrors of systemic targeted.
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Paola Ramos
Yeah.
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Jennifer
Racism. Where do you think this leaves Latino voters? And again, I know they're not a monolith, but this is really targeted racism.
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Paola Ramos
I think there's, there's like three different scenarios that I see. Number one, I think maybe you can see a similar story to what we saw in Arizona under Joe Arpaio. I remember those days of like SB 1070, right, where you had this entire generation of Latinos that grew up watching their parents being criminalized and stopped and deported and self deported. And then what happened? Right. That generation of Latinos, many of whom were US born or many of whom were dreamers, then became the organizers that helped transform Arizona into a purple state. And so there's a lot to learn from what happened in Maricopa County. You can have that scenario. What I'm also seeing are, and this is a sad part that we never talk about, there is a group of Latinos, some US Born, many that live in mixed status families that have had enough, that have been living in the shadows not just under Trump, but also under an Obama administration and a Biden administration, in previous Democratic administrations that promise comprehensive immigration reform time and time again. And I cannot tell you the amount of conversations I've had with people that wake up every day and say, is it time to go? Do I self deport or not? And I follow many of those people that are packing up their bags and, and choosing to go. And the sad part is, is that there's something very liberating about saying, I've had enough. And there's something dignified of that choice, at least when it's your choice. So that's also happening. And then I think you have the other scenario. I am, which I can sense from organizers that are finally kind of still feel mistrust with both parties, but feel a sense of belonging in a sense of they're finding their voice in this anti Trump world because they somehow, and I think you and I feel the same way, they somehow understand that it's worth fighting for, that going back to this idea like that this multiracial, multicultural, pluralistic coalition is worth fighting for, and that it is the only hope to get to that, you know, more just version of this experiment that we're all living In. And so I see those, those three scenarios. You know, I'm, I sometimes I feel like I'm the most cynical person on earth because, you know, I, I'm, I cover a lot of these stories, but oftentimes, and my dad reminds me like, you know, there's something that connects all of us Latinos. Whether you're a Trump supporter or not, someone in your family somewhere, someone believed that it was worth it to come here because of whatever we left behind and told us that it was worth fighting for here. And you know, my dad is cheesy. I believe him sometimes. And I, you know, but it's, it's, it's a fascinating, fascinating community. And what drives me is there's curiosity because we don't know the answers.
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Jennifer
Okay, so think, let's think about it in terms like this, because everything you're saying is really thought provoking to me because I, I feel like in order for us to get through this fascist, abusive takeover that we're all living through right now, we have to build really strong coalitions. And I firmly believe with every fiber in my body that none of us are free until all of us are free. I know that by picking on and bullying and marginalizing trans people, that leaves Latinos vulnerable, it leaves women vulnerable, it leaves everybody vulnerable. So I think we can leave no one behind. When survivors of the Holocaust or their descendants came to the United States, they historically went to civil rights marches and marched with black Americans. That was the lesson. Like, you know, first they come forth. How do you see the Democrats? Because that's, I hate the two party system, but it is what we have. And I think the Democrats are the best vehicle to that we can get to stop upending the need of corporations and lift up universal human rights. How did the Democrats get this message to like the Latino electorate, this linking of universal human rights? Because I do know there is a component of this that Latinos historically are probably Catholic and maybe culturally conservative. Yeah, maybe.
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Paola Ramos
Lena Reagan said all the time. No, Reagan was always the one that was like, well, Latinos are conservative, they just don't know it.
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Jennifer
They, they, I mean, they might historically lean towards patriarchal tendencies, maybe lean towards some homophobia.
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Paola Ramos
Yeah.
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Jennifer
Because, you know, the Catholicism is such a ubiquitous presence and evangelicalism now.
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Paola Ramos
Yes. So Latinos and I know you, you talk about this all the time.
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Jennifer
I hate the Bible thumpers.
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Paola Ramos
I've heard. I too am an atheist. But anyways, but, but that's so, it is interesting because Latinos are the, have the highest rate of conversion to Evangelicalism more than any other group right now. And, and I think you kind of see an interesting story there when, when I talk to, when someone's interviewing Latinos now, whether you recently arrived here or they're migrants, they're mixed status families. And you ask them like, what's one of the first things you do? And when you, when you come to a country that, that still feels unfamiliar, oftentimes they find a church. They find a church because it's their way to community. Community. And then what happens inside those churches completely transforms one. So of course there's, there's, you know, people find community, they find solidarity. But I have spent so much time in, in these churches that sort of insert these very problematic pastors. We know that story and that then transform, I think, this vulnerability into a polit. And I've seen it time and time again. I spent so much time in the Rio Grande Valley and in Arizona and in California. I've seen the pastors, I've been inside those rooms and I see the way that they turn this vulnerability into a political message that is all about the right and the wrong, all about this fight between good and evil. And, and I see, I see the way that, that transforms even immigrants into, and to suddenly then seeing their own and being like, well, no, those other immigrants, no, they're the evil ones.
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Jennifer
Is this intentional? Are they? Because the right wing evangelicals have been organized for a very long time and they know how powerful this binary, you know, emotional Blackwell is. Are they intentionally targeting?
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Paola Ramos
Yeah, because they can't survive without Latinos. Now. Do they want them in? That's a different question. But they know when, when Donald Trump launches his Evangelicals for Trump campaign in 2020, where does he go? He goes to Miami. He goes to Miami, Florida. He doesn't go to any other sort of, you know, white county. He goes to Miami, Florida and he goes into one of the Miami's largest evangelical churches because they know that they have, they need a percentage of Latinos in order to survive and in order for this like, white supremacist coalition to survive, they need them and they're there. And so, you know, the, the every single evangelical coalition, you have these like white pastors doing these like mass, you know, programs along, along the southern border. Like I've seen them. And so, you know, I don't know enough to know if there's, if there's like a real genuine calling for them to want them in. But what I do know is that white supremacy does not survive without a percentage of Latinos and then what's interesting too is that these. You're going to have to help me with the pronunciation. Tele. Tele. No, I can't do it.
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Jennifer
Televangelist.
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Paola Ramos
Televangelist. Yeah, certain words I can't say. So the, the. I've seen these. Televangelist programming now switching into Spanish language in Texas and, and suddenly they're. Yeah, yeah, no, and it's happening. And if you go to Texas, you're doing it on purpose. It's strategic.
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Jennifer
Totally.
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Paola Ramos
Yeah.
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Jennifer
God, that is terrible. I mean I had, you know, I've seen how they do this in the Bible Belt. I see how they do this in rural America. I see how they have made this a part of community. And then, and then somebody's whole ethos boils down to church and patriotism. And I see firsthand because I grew up in, in, you know, suburban Oklahoma City and know how strong of a pull this is. And so the right wing white supremacist Christian nationalists have been so targeted. You know, they made abortion an issue. They've targeted gay marriage, they've targeted trans. And it's interesting, the Latino, what do they, what do, does the Latino community know about Stephen Miller? They know who he is.
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Paola Ramos
No, but it's funny. No, I mean, so I keep thinking, and among my friend of circles were always like some Latina must have broken his heart. Like something must have happened totally. I think in that high school in Santa Monica. Like something must have happened because since like he has been dreaming of this moment. Yeah, he was in, in high school. Right. Since he was literally like writing the, remember, like he was literally like writing letters in his high school essentially saying that janitors, the Latino janitors were there to like pick up his trash and that they weren't doing it and that those other Latino students around him, they had to assimilate. So he's been like dreaming up this moment forever. But going back to, to this like, you know, white supremacist thing in 2022. One of the things that Stephen Miller does in his group, America first or America Legal first, they go into Spanish language counties in, in Colorado and they're specifically spreading out Spanish language flyers with transphobic messaging and, and, and wrapped into kind of this like Christian messaging of the right and wrong, which is it all goes back to this like, you know, divine calling of like this is our calling. And I think Stephen Miller, not to give him enough too much credit, but I think they're all betting on this idea that you, that you really pointed out, which is that there's something about this Christian and transphobic message that would trigger a moral panic that is familiar among some of us Latinos. Right. That grew up in these colonized countries where these gender norms were very much ingrained and the lines between state and church have always been very blurry. And that something about this transphobic, like Christian language would work. And it did. And it did. It worked very, very well. Because beyond the religious aspects, what that language does, which is the same thing that anti immigrant language does, which is the same thing that fear mongering does, it essentially inspires a sense of disgust. Right. And the disgust is the, is at the heart of what allows a human to dehumanize the other. Right. Like if I find you disgusting, like I'm not going to see you as a human. And that's what the transphobic messaging does very well among us. And the anti immigrant message is the same thing. But it's all to me. And that's why, like when I write these books or when I, you know, when I try and make sense of the things I talk to scientists and psychologists, because it's not politics. Right. It's the feeling. Yeah, it's, it's all about this like visceral feeling. It's just discussed.
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Jennifer
You think there's. I've read this before. This isn't my original thought. There's a bargain that is pitched to people like to. Let's talk about the rural white triple trumpers.
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Paola Ramos
Yeah.
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Jennifer
The bargain for them is these are capitalists with no capital.
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Paola Ramos
Yeah.
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Jennifer
But the Republican Party says if you vote with us, here are immigrants, trans people and gay people and black people that you get to demonize. We're going to give you a permission structure. So now to the Latino community is it, here's the bargain. You come to us and then here is who you get to be better than these gay people, these trans people. Because this is back to the psychology, and I agree with you, a lot of this is psychological. It's in these powers, really nefarious powers, know this and they know how to tap into this weakness. And in, in the face of the Democratic Party not standing up against genocide, not standing for universal human rights, it leaves this vacuum.
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Paola Ramos
Exactly. Well, yes, but also if you, if you take a step back and you look at who Latinos are today versus like who they were, say when, like when my dad was like starting Korean and in the United States we've changed so much. Right. Like the majority of Latinos right now are. The majority are us born, the majority speak English, not Spanish. It's third generation Latinos are the fastest growing segment among us. And so what that means is that we are so much more Americanized and assimilated than when people think. I think there was a story, you know, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago that really centered our solidarity among this like immigrant story because it was, it was closer to us and it made sense and we were community, we were a tribe. But that kind of is disappearing, no? And we are more American. Like my siblings, my brother barely speaks. I mean my dad hates us. Like he barely speaks Spanish, right? Like, so all this to say that I think Trumpism also bets on that idea that there is a small segment and a growing segment of Latinos that are so Americanized that, that they too can sort of buy into the US versus them gain, to your point. And it is true. And then on top of that, I do think that there are certain kind of like psychological and like historic things that we have as Latinos that we never talk about, right? All the racial baggage that we carry from Latin America, like, it's so complex, right? Like we come from countries where like the Spaniards and the colonizers, institutionalized caste systems, right? Where, where we have been taught to, to, to sort of see ethnicities and race and in very problematic ways. Like we, we do this like racial dance all the time. We've our countries, we come from places where we can like reclassify race and always claim whiteness not because of the Europeans. Like, I can't say the amount of times that I've interviewed like right wing Latinos from the proud boys like Enrique Daria, all these guys. Yeah, what's going on with that? Okay, so Enrique Dario, when you talk to Enrique Dario, he'll tell you, well, I'm 60 black, right? Because he's a black Cuban man. And that's their way of shielding themselves from being called racist. But then he always says 40 European, right? And that's. That is typically when you think of like the right wing, like Ladino Manosphere, the entry point into these like white supremacist bubbles is always this like European Eurocentric direct lineage that we get to claim. And they always do that. And that is literally their way into that bubble. What's going on to get that deal? Nothing. He's still a loser. No, no, but that's because I think,
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Jennifer
I mean, because I think about this with like Clarence Thomas. I think about it with Pam Bondi, you know, and she just had her image taken off the justice thrown in the trash Can I think about it with Scott Besson? I think about it with Tim Cook, I think about it with all of the, that think that they are the exception because I growing up in white suburbia, white, I went to a public high school and there was hardly any diversity. I mean hardly any. I know these white supremacists. I know them. 50 years I spent around it. I know that there is the same way that they judged Barack Obama, whose mother was from Kansas, Kansas, a heritage American, if you will. I know that Enrique of the proud boys. I know what they think. I know they're going to call him a W E T, B a C K because I've heard it my entire life. I know that they see him as somebody, well, we'll get this Hispanic to do it because we can get him to do this job cheaper.
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Paola Ramos
That's exactly it.
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Jennifer
I know the way they view him.
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Paola Ramos
That's it. And that's. That's it. So I was, I was in Miami when Trump pardons the, the proud boys and pardons the January 6th insurrections. And I was there for Enrique Dario's welcome party, like literally, right? So I was, I was not only I was with the party, I was at the party, of course I was at the party, but I was, I was in the press, right? But I, I was covering the day before this Latino insurrectionist pardon watch party that they were hosting as Trump was being inaugurated. Some people were even wearing their like court ordered ankle bracelet and they were all waiting to be pardoned. And I saw it. And then they were waiting for Enrique Dario's release. And the story will make sense in a second, but essentially Enrique Dario, you know, Trump pardons him, Enrique Dario gets to Miami where he is essentially seen as this like anti communist hero known as the martyr, when that's the way that he was received. He comes down, there's like all these, you know, photos of him in the airport. He finally has a press conference. What I found interesting is that Enrique's sitting there, you know, with his like little glasses and he was always this like tough guy, but joking. He says, well, you know, maybe Trump is going to call me because maybe I'm going to get a job at the White House, maybe I'll go to D.C. and they're there in that voice. And I've covered him for a long time there, there was something in me that said, oh, you really believe that you will be called like, you really believe that he likes you, that you're in the, in group. No one has ever called him. He's still in Miami. And that's the story of a lot of these people that in the Proud Boys, Enrique saw a boys club that made him feel cool. And then suddenly the Roger Stones of the world call him and Trump calls him because they need a Latinos for Trump warrior. And then he becomes radicalized by that power, and he feels cool. And then he becomes the literal soldier that enlists everyone to go into the Capitol. And then he serves the longest sentence than anyone else. And now he's lonely. He has nothing. And it goes back to what you said in 2020, when Trump loses the election. All the proud boys look at Enrique Daria, and the white men say, the west belongs to the white race and the white race alone, and we owe nothing to you. And they kind of, like, turn their backs on him. And it's exactly what you're saying. It's all a game. It's all a power game. Totally. Yeah.
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Jennifer
Let's talk shift gears about the lady that she did the rally in Miami and she's salsa dancing. I will vote for Donald Trump. And then fast forward, and it's really sad, and I don't enjoy human suffering. Like, I don't really like triple Trumpers.
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Paola Ramos
Yeah.
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Jennifer
I don't want to hang out with them, but I don't want them to die, and I want them to have health care. All right, so this lady, she is, you know, I mean, it is high times she's campaigning for Trump. She's having salsa rallies, and it is just, you know, all grins and giggles. And then fast forward into Stephen Miller's machinations of his plan to deport 100 million people so he can have an easier route through the emergency room. Somebody she loves was deported, and she's on camera snot slinging and crying. Speak to.
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Paola Ramos
Yeah.
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Jennifer
The Latino voter who believed that they were the exception and then somebody they love.
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Paola Ramos
Oh, yeah.
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Jennifer
Has been happening everywhere, separated or damaged. And where. What is going on with her now? Is she still a Trumper?
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Paola Ramos
You know, so I, I was just in Miami. I am. And so in Miami, it's interesting, right, because in Miami, you have the heart of Trump's Latino coalition, which are Cubans and Venezuelans, and many of them truly, truly believe that they were untouchable. Right. I cannot tell you the amount of Cuban voters who, who are the most loyal Trump voters out there. How now, for the first time ever, they're now being impacted by immigration. Like I am. I have text conversations, and I'm on the phone with. With this one Cuban woman who voted for Trump rallied for Trump, campaigned for him. Her husband is, who is also Cuban, was detained, and it was then deported to Cuba. Which is just like, the hypocrisy there, Right. Of like, you vote for this man who promised to be the liberator. No. Of the communist regime and then sends your husband to Cuba, and now this, this Cuban man is now essentially in, In Mexico. And so that is happening everywhere. No, these, These, these Trump supporters that are realizing that they, too, are being racially profiled and that they, too, have family members that are now impacted. And, and it's very hard for a Latino to not know someone that is being impacted. So the question is, now what. I, I do think that there is some type of, of remorse. Right. Like, I, I do. This woman that I talked to, she doesn't just feel guilty, she feels a lot of shame, a lot of shame. And, and to the point that, like, you know, she's bullied online, and people are like, why do you know, you deserve this is, I think, now what's interesting for Democrats. Right. That I'm also kind of seeing the way that they're organizing. That's the moral question for them.
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Jennifer
Right.
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Paola Ramos
Do you bring them in? Are they welcomed back in? Or are those already, like, if you already voted for Trump once and you believed in that message, can. Can you bring them in? And I don't think. I don't, I don't know that they figured that out. No, I don't. I'm not, I'm not sure.
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Jennifer
I think the answer to that, Paula, is. I think accountability is important.
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Paola Ramos
Me, too.
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Jennifer
And I think that if a, a Latino person, and I understand the dynamics of trying to navigate the United States and the racial structure of it.
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Paola Ramos
Yeah.
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Jennifer
And even though I'm a woman, my skin, my accent, everything has put me, you know, ahead in a lot of ways in this country. And if a Latino person found. Because both parties have failed us and they found some sort of home. 77 million Americans did when they voted for him. But the message from that is, I screwed up, and here's why. And like, recently, I'll tell you, you know, I, I realized that I contributed to a lot of this. I voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016.
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Paola Ramos
I worked for her in 2016.
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Jennifer
Yeah. You know, I, and, and, and I, at the time, I remember my son called me a centrist, and I was like, I'm not centrist. You know, I'm so liberal in all of these things. And I don't dislike Hillary Clinton. I agree with her probably on 90 of everything but I lesson is I was able to vote for Hillary Clinton because I was a wealthy white woman. I didn't have to worry about working class Americans that didn't have health care, that didn't have dental care, that their wages weren't going up because my wages were going up.
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Paola Ramos
Right, right.
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Jennifer
And so there's an accountability that I think is important. And I think the answer to a lot of this is we all have to be engaged politically and have robust conversations. Yeah, about all of it.
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Paola Ramos
About all of it. Yeah, you're right. And I think the, one of the questions that I think is dividing the party and I think it goes back to the kind of like the Hillary and Bernie division or tension will be the ICE question, like, do you, do you want. And I think candidates will be forced because one thing is to rally behind immigrants now. And now suddenly everyone cares about the raids. But then the moral question for the party will be like, do you abolish ICE or not? And I think that's going to be kind of what, you know, where, where you see the courage or not. Because what the data shows you, and this is what like progressives are talking about, what the data shows you is that that messaging doesn't work. The polishing eyes, it doesn't work. That's, that's, that's like the, the numbers that I've seen is that the data shows you that people don't want or don't feel comfortable with that language, that they want a sort of broader, like, you know, we want a comprehensive immigration reform type of messaging. However, what the organizers will tell you is that they know that the right thing is to abolish ice. Like that is the North Star. Right. Like that as an institution, as a history of ice, like it is corrupt. No, take it down and start over with the vision that you want. So that's to your point, like, do you do the safe thing or do you do the right thing? And what strategically do you need to do the sort of, the politically right thing in order for this long term goal. I am of the belief, like you, particularly now when so many people feel politically homeless and like these like bargaining chips like you, you, you, you fight for weight. Of course.
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Jennifer
Because I feel like I don't know
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Paola Ramos
that they'll do that.
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Jennifer
I, I don't know either because I feel like, you know, focus group politics, the Democrats are so disciplined on that.
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Paola Ramos
Yeah.
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Jennifer
And I feel like it, it feels like right now when I hear corporate dim talk, I just want to go, shut up.
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Paola Ramos
I know, I know.
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Jennifer
Stop It, I know even something.
- [31:16]
Paola Ramos
Yeah.
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Jennifer
How do Latino voters. Or is that abolish ice or is it just as, as nuanced as it
- [31:23]
Paola Ramos
is when you get to the, the last, the lot. I'm with you completely. The last, you know, numbers I saw from, from political consultants is that they're not with it. But I, I also, you know, I think this is where like the Harris campaign really failed. I think, I think in, in 2024, they also bet on this idea that if, if they too were hard line on immigration, if they too somehow tried to like out Trump, Trump at the border and be the ones that were like, you know, but we actually mean it, that, that would resonate with Latinos and it didn't. So I think we spent, you know, time talking about Trump. But the truth is also that there is this deep, deep, deep disillusionment among so many Latinos that are so tired of being promised the same things and that have nothing to hold on to. Right. Like no real vision from Democrats. And I think they want more. They desperately want more. And I don't, I don't believe that the, that this like anti Trump movement is enough.
- [32:20]
Jennifer
No, it's not. Not even, not even.
- [32:22]
Paola Ramos
You need, you need more. Of course not. You need more. You need a vision. And that's where I go back to these like, stories that are heartbreaking, which is the decision to leave or not. Right. And the numbers show you that for the first time in decades, there are more immigrants leaving than coming. And I don't think we understand as a society, like the profound long term effects of what it means to have generations of immigrants that then go home and that then tell the other family member like, it's not worth it anymore. Right. Like that American dream that like drove everyone here, like, that's gone. Like, I don't think we've wrapped our heads around like, what that means and how that can like transform this country. And that's, that's what I see too.
- [33:01]
Jennifer
Okay. I also. Last question. I just want to ask you about this. So the Republican messaging and you see it every time there's an election.
- [33:08]
Paola Ramos
Yeah.
- [33:09]
Jennifer
Caravans, migrants, always. They're all these criminals are coming across the border.
- [33:14]
Paola Ramos
Trans migrants. Yeah, that one, that one's the best. So is. Yeah. They're gonna eat you. Yeah, yeah.
- [33:21]
Jennifer
So I live during all of this time in Oklahoma, not that far from the border. I mean, it's, you know, there's Mexico, Texas is a big state, but we have a huge Latino population in Oklahoma. And it's fantastic. I Mean, I love, I worked as an interior designer for 25, 30 years. And so my, as glamorous as that sounds, the majority of my job, I'm on a job site and I worked with immigrants every single day, the same cruise, house after house, project after project. People that I now know have known for two decades that are my friends.
- [33:56]
Paola Ramos
Yeah, yeah.
- [33:56]
Jennifer
I never experienced any sort of mass immigrants running around with guns and buses being fairly close to the border. I never experienced any of this. Is, is that it is?
- [34:12]
Paola Ramos
Of course it is.
- [34:13]
Jennifer
I mean, but is it like the numbers of. Because if you talk. I always knew when I was talking to somebody that watched Fox News because they'd be like, you know, this immigration problem, like, you live in a gated community. That's all why every house is a cracker, a saltine cracker. Like, were the numbers so much higher with Biden?
- [34:33]
Paola Ramos
They were high. Yeah. There, there were a lot of.
- [34:36]
Jennifer
What about deportations?
- [34:38]
Paola Ramos
There were not as high. It, it is true that there was a high, high influx of asylum seekers coming in, but the way that the media talks about it help our economy. Of course it did. But, but, but, but this is why, like, and, and when I'm on TV and, and when our colleagues are on tv, like, I'm so careful with the language. Right? One thing is calling it, and even MSNBC sometimes would call it this way. One thing is saying there's a border crisis. The other thing is saying there's a humanitarian crisis. Right? One thing is saying, and that's, and that's so important because, yes, there were hundreds. That is true. There were hundreds and thousands of asylum seekers that were coming from insane asylum
- [35:14]
Jennifer
system,
- [35:16]
Paola Ramos
not criminals, but people that in this country have a constitutional right to seek asylum. And that is true. There were many. And it was mishandled. And the, in the Biden administration mishandled it, not for the reasons that Trump will tell you, but for the reasons, because it was not framed as a real humanitarian crisis. And that's what it was. And so, you know, it's, and that's why it's, it's very, you can call them illegal aliens or you can call them undocumented immigrants. You can say it's a border crisis or a humanitarian crisis. You can say that they're criminals or that they have a legal right to seek asylum. And, and, and yes, it was a mess. But Trumpism thrives often fear mongering. You know, it thrives off those images. It thrives off, you know, telling everyone that the danger is imminent, that it's in your backyard. It's about to be here. And to be fair, what was interesting about living in New York during that time is that for the first time, New Yorkers that suddenly saw asylum seekers in the streets were faced with the reality, okay, so, so what does it mean to be among immigrants that need help? And sometimes the answer wasn't what you thought it was. Remember that Trump made a lot of interest in New York. He really did. And so I think, you know, one thing is to talk about it and the other thing is to be exposed to it like you are every day. Right. And to, and to, and to really understand what you're talking about and to find the real empathy and curiosity in you to want to understand and to not be led by the fearmonger, which is true. So easy. And so, you know, I, I, I think now the interesting question is, like, now that the fear mongering is gone now, now, now that finally Americans of all walks of life have been exposed in their front yards with the raids and with who immigrants really are, which are family members and their dads and their moms and their children.
- [37:06]
Jennifer
Yeah.
- [37:07]
Paola Ramos
That might, might change the conversation perhaps. Again, I'm cynical because we've been here before. Yeah, yeah. People cried when family separation happened. The whole country was morally outraged. And then we went back to Trump. So I'm always, I'm very cynical.
- [37:20]
Jennifer
I don't, I honestly don't blame you. We've elected this man twice by other rising, specifically immigrants and living in, in the state that I did the majority of my life. I know how powerful it is to scapegoat. I know people who triple trumped ladies that I know, rich white ladies that I raised my kids with.
- [37:43]
Paola Ramos
Yeah.
- [37:43]
Jennifer
That probably thought, oh, Jennifer's a nut. She's a crazy atheist liberal. And then I get these text messages, thank you so much for speaking out for immigrants. My housekeeper's husband was deported.
- [37:55]
Paola Ramos
Right. I think it feels different now.
- [37:57]
Jennifer
You know, and so, I mean, as grotesque as that is that, that that's what made them get there. I do think, you know, when I think about that little boy Liam.
- [38:09]
Paola Ramos
Yeah.
- [38:09]
Jennifer
With his beanie. Yeah. And the little ears on that. And I, I think about the importance constantly of connecting all of us. Universal human rights. Don't leave anybody behind. Don't trust politicians that, that try to leave something behind. And I think your point, and I'd never heard this before, Paola, of calling it a humanitarian crisis. The propaganda that we're sold all the time and the way things are labeled.
- [38:38]
Paola Ramos
Yeah.
- [38:38]
Jennifer
Is really, it's the soft bigotry.
- [38:43]
Paola Ramos
Yeah, yeah.
- [38:44]
Jennifer
You know, that, that really sinks in. It's kind of like when people call sexual abuse evidence.
- [38:51]
Paola Ramos
That's. Right.
- [38:52]
Jennifer
Child porn or kitty porn.
- [38:54]
Paola Ramos
Yeah.
- [38:54]
Jennifer
You know, and that goes on and on and on. And there's a dehumanization to all of this type of propaganda.
- [39:00]
Paola Ramos
Yeah.
- [39:00]
Jennifer
Okay, so last question. What do you think the Democrats message? Is it. Is it specific to Latinos, is specific to immigration? What is the message for the Democrats moving forward in the midterms?
- [39:17]
Paola Ramos
I mean, I think there's a lot to learn from. From Zoron. Right. Like, totally. So much to learn from him because. Because he. He was. And I know, you know, you know him, but he. He was, he was capable of. Of. Of doing, I guess, what, you know, he, I meant them. He was capable of. Of getting the, The Trump supporters and getting the Latino immigrants and the Muslim Americans. Like, he, he was able to build a coalition based on a sense that everyone is worthy of belonging in a place. Right. And like, that is. You know, then you can get into the immigration stuff, but there's no, no one is left behind. And you don't even have to, like, call people out. But it is. It is like, everyone is worthy of this thing, of this dream.
- [40:00]
Jennifer
Even the universal child care. If your child's undocumented, they're still getting. Everyone can get a lunch.
- [40:05]
Paola Ramos
Sure. And you can. And if you. And I. You know, I'm not a. I'm not a political strategist, but I do believe in, like, if you feel inspired, right. Like, if you, if you feel like, you know, it's. It's what I felt when I was graduating from college here in New York and I worked to. And I went to go work for Barack Obama. Like, I felt. I felt it.
- [40:25]
Jennifer
Yeah.
- [40:25]
Paola Ramos
Right. And people ask me all the time, like, what does it mean to be a Latina or Latino? Like, I don't know, but I know that it's a feeling. Right? Like, I know it's like, it's something that I feel when I walk into a space. I don't know how politicians think about us, but I know that it's like, it feels good. And I. And I think that's. It's like going back to, like, a feeling of, like, man. Yes. Like, I, I can get with this. I don't know. Maybe next time I'll have a better answer, but I know.
- [40:48]
Jennifer
No, I. I think that, you know, we. We often say, like, oh, I'm not. And I'm not a political Strategist. But my podcast has gotten super popular because I think political strategists have kind of failed us when we look at how did we lose Trump twice? Two competent, educated women with experience and resumes that are out of this world. And so these are conversations for us to lean into other people perspectives other than just this boring focus group polling.
- [41:21]
Paola Ramos
Yeah.
- [41:22]
Jennifer
Type stuff. And I think that, you know, I was so happy to have you on because the Latino, Latinos are here. They are a part of America. You know, you hear now people are talking about, we can't have Sharia law and these Muslims all over the place. Arab Americans are here. Muslim Americans are here. They're not going anywhere. Latinos are not going anywhere. Stephen Miller can try all he wants to, to deport 100 million people. It's not going to happen. He's going to deport some and he's going to kill some. That's going to happen.
- [41:50]
Paola Ramos
Oh, yeah.
- [41:51]
Jennifer
But these policies are widely unpopular. And so I just. Every chance we can build coalitions and, and connect us all, because I really believe we're all so connected. I do too.
- [42:02]
Paola Ramos
And that, and you know, one, one of the things that I learned the most when I report in Latin America, and particularly the feminist movement of Latin America, what is interesting to study about them is the way in which all of the different struggles are intertwined and woven in together. Right. Like I've been covering people that are protesting and then those are the women that are then literally running the, like underground abortion networks. I've seen them like wrap abortion pills to send them to the southern border. Those same organizers are then the lesbian organizers that are part of the LGBTQ rallies that are then the ones that, that have like, you know, their cousins and aunts connected to the crisis of the disappeared women. And so there's something to your point of like, the way that these struggles are like, intertwined and like, how do you get all of these organizers to, to go back to that universal value that you see a lot in Latin America, despite the kind of, you know, the pendulum swings there, which are insane. You know, from like anti colonial movements to fascism. The constant is that like real, real profound, like universal value that unites this resistance movement. It's, it's fat. I love, I love going there to see that.
- [43:15]
Jennifer
I love it too. Paola Ramos, thank you so much for coming on. I hope that I can have you on again. We're both in New York now.
- [43:22]
Paola Ramos
I know. Now. Yeah. Welcome. Officially.
- [43:24]
Jennifer
Yes, thank you, thank you.