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- [00:01]
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- [00:35]
Host 1
The tongue talking faith leader of the White House is the biggest net and she has an office in the West Wing. And Jennifer, I don't know if you've seen this, but it's bananas. Play the clip where I go, God rules.
- [00:52]
Faith Leader (clip)
When I walk on White House grounds, God walks on White House grounds. I had every right and authority to declare the White House as holy ground because I was stand there and where I stand is holy.
- [01:06]
Host 2
To say no to President Trump would.
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Host 1
Be saying no to God.
- [01:11]
VRBO Advertiser
And there.
- [01:11]
Host 2
And I won't do that.
- [01:12]
Faith Leader (clip)
We are in a spiritual war right now. Let every demonic network that has aligned itself against the purpose, against the calling of President Trump. Let it be broken, let it be torn down in the name of Jesus. You want me to tell you what my thoughts are? The thoughts of the King of Kings, the thoughts of the Lord of Lords. I'm downloading heaven.
- [01:34]
Host 1
Okay, enough. I can't take it anymore. What about that?
- [01:38]
Host 2
Sadly, I've seen this and I've even seen one where she starts intermittently talking in tongues while throwing the Bible up and down. This form of Christianity, you know, is the thing that I speak out against a lot. It is a cult, it is a, an anti intellectual mechanism that abuses children. You have children that have been told that they were born bad and they need saving and that if they don't get saved, they're going to be tortured in hell forever. That is abuse. That is a form of abuse. If you went to a therapist and you said to your therapist, my husband said to me that I was born bad, but I have to tell him every day that he's my savior. And then, and if I don't do that, he's going to torture me forever. Your thera therapist would say you need to call 91 1. Like this is a very serious thing. But because it's religious, everybody excuses it. And you have all of these children that have this torment, absolute torment in their mind that if they masturbate, that if they have a lustful thought or that if, you know A child meets me and I'm an atheist, that I'm going to go to hell, then they would cry over that. Mind you, I'm probably a lot more Christlike than their Christian relatives. And so it is this, this is a very dangerous thing. I mean, it's funny to kind of look at, but I, being somebody who was not indoctrinated in this, I can tell you the people that I know that went through this, present company included, have been tortured by this. It is a torture to be indoctrinated in this cult because you think everybody is bad and everybody needs saving. And furthermore, did you hear all the narcissism in that? Wherever I go, God goes. That Christian narcissism that is taught in this form of evangelical Christianity coincides completely with the idea of American individualism. That's why these two make such good bedfellows. And I just think this is, this is a uniquely American problem. No other first world country has this kind of batshit religion in it. None.
- [04:01]
Host 1
Well, and I think the Christian narcissism completely coincides and enables the demeaning of people, the demeaning of immigrants. It's easy to say, because I'm so special and I'm chosen, I can demean other people. I mean, it happens, you know, for me, like culturally, people around me. But you look at the big picture and you have all these mega church evangelicals that are able to say, I don't care what happens to these people because they are so narcissistic and feel so entitled because of their faith. But another thing that stuck out to me in this was that you have to obey Trump because it's like obeying God. So to me, that's a red flag that she's signaling to people. You have to go along with whatever Trump does because he's now God. And so being raised in that, I'm like, isn't that idolatry? Aren't you putting Trump in the form of a God? And a lot of these MAGA people are willing to excuse, and I, white evangelical MAGA people are willing to excuse Trump. Porn stars, Playboy bunnies, dehumanizing people because they think he's chosen from God. And this just completely wraps into that all with the Christianity label, enabling all of it. I mean, to me, knowing people, loving people that are, that are in on this, it hurts me. It hurts me so deeply that there able to completely justify all this with Trump because he's chosen from God.
- [05:35]
Host 2
But it's familiar because here's the, here's the link between the two, Trump is an authoritarian. This form, this cult, is an authoritarian cult. It is complete obedience. It is blind obedience. You see people like, I know people that are really, really religious that will not stand up against bigotry because they feel like they have to be obedient to the bigot and it prevents them from having conviction. So there's always this deferential treatment to these structures. But the link between that woman and Trump and evangelical Christianity, it's authoritarianism. That is an authoritarian cult. Trump is an authoritarian. All of that is familiar. Trump's a grifter. All of these mega churches, they're not there to help people. They're there to grow and make money. They are abusing their parishioners every single week and they're serving up hate and bigotry and a message of white supremacy while they have a photoshopped photo of a white Jesus Christ hanging in the church when actually he was a brown skinned Palestinian and all of that. There are some churches in the world and in the United States that preach this type of social justice. This lady. No, that doesn't, that's not what she's into. She's into this complete blind obedience. And people who have that level of obedience towards those structures excuse everything. They excuse everything in the name of obedience, which is authoritarianism.
- [07:16]
Host 1
You're so right about that. And I'll tell you, growing up in that, I didn't see that until we started having conversations like the authoritarian, authoritarian through line in religion and the mega church. Religion and Trump. I, I didn't see that, but it is so clear to me now. Okay. Another thing that I see a through line is all this grift that Trump does, he's constantly grifting, begging for money. These emails that are constantly, you have to save me. I have a deadline. Give me, you know, $200, $300. I grew up in churches where that happened. I grew up in churches where you had to give a certain percentage of your income or you were disobedient. So I think that feels familiar to people too, like, completely grossed out. If I got an email begging for money from someone that I support, I would be turned to with the emails that he says, oh, I love you, I love my followers, all that shit. But they dig it because they're used to it.
- [08:16]
Host 2
It's familiar. And I mean, if you go to, like these mega churches, if you go look at their websites like the ones in Oklahoma, it's all about expansion. It's, it's a business. And the reason that the founders Excluded churches from tax. The reason they're tax exempt is because they're supposed to be charitable. And the, the Bible belt states in this white evangelicalism. That is where the KKK flourished in this form of Christianity. So it has, it's important to remember that at the base of this form of evangelicalism is racism. It is overt, sustained, systemic racism. And they control people through, you know, purity culture, through sex, you know, the, the, the binary decisions of gender. But these religions and the, the for profit nature of them is such a link to me with Trump because when Trump first came to the scene growing up, I always wanted to fit in. In high school and junior high with some of my religious friends, everybody went to church. It was a huge part of the culture. But I wasn't ever indoctrinated. So I would go with my friends. And I was so turned off by. If you're not indoctrinated in it, even as a teenager, you can see it. And it was like this Bible thumping, you know, everybody's terrible people, only God can save you. All of this messaging I'd never heard before, like that you're born broken. Like, I was like, that's kind of weird. Weird. You're born a baby broken. You know what I mean? Like, that's a weird thing to say about an infant or a toddler. That's so weird. And then the, when the plates would go around and the begging and the, that start Bible thumping. And I had friends, my parents were upper middle class, but friends. Whose. One friend of mine in particular, her mom worked at ups. She was working class, really nice woman. She went to this crazy ass church. She was always giving him. This is in the 80s, like 20, $40. There's a lot of money back then. And she didn't have that kind of disposable income. And she would always put that money in the tip jar. And this preacher was wearing, his wife was wearing like a white mink coat, looked like Tammy Faye. And I remember just thinking, go, this is a total scam. This is. And my poor friend was tortured by all of this. She's tortured about, she had a crush on somebody. She fantasized about French kissing him. My first high school boyfriend, his dad was a Southern Baptist preacher. Mom caught him masturbating one time, grounded him for six months. We his, he was the person I lost my virginity to. And the guilt and all of this that he had was something I didn't have because my parents were like, look, when you get hormones, this is what happens. This is what Consent means. This is what protection means. It's not our business. It's just our place to tell you this. And I was educated about it. But out of all of my religious friends, I was the last to lose my virginity. Not that that matters. And I don't believe in purity culture. I don't think that means anything. But I just think this whole thing, people are so damaged by it and the relationship that these, this stuff, like Trump with his daughter and Ivanka, all of that's familiar. When I think about the religious people that I've known like this, it's this weird sexualization of women and even their daughters. And it's just. It's just a weird cult. Evangelical Christianity is a cult that abuses children. These children are abused. The fact that they believe that people they love are going to be tortured in hell if they don't believe the same way they did. That is abuse. That is psychological abuse. Nobody talks about it. It's just there are niche groups out there that do. But you've had to come out of all of this, and I think your story is so important because the torture that people feel about this is really, I mean, life short. And they're worried about, like, fantasizing about making out with somebody when you're a teenager. That's. Embrace that. That's being a kid worried about having a few partners in college. Embrace that. That's the human experience. Go get your slap and tickle on. Go figure out what your kinks are, you know?
- [12:40]
Host 1
Right.
- [12:41]
Host 2
It's just, it's. It's such a controlling cult. And at the core of it is this demand of obedience. Right. The pastor demands obedience, the parents demand obedience. Nobody ever bucks the system because it's the through line is all the authoritarianism.
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Host 1
Yeah. And in going back to, you know, racism being this, one of the central tenets of white evangelical Christian. So is misogyny.
- [13:06]
Host 2
Oh, yeah.
- [13:07]
Host 1
I mean, white men, White Christian men are supposed to control everything. And when I was doing my deconstruction of faith, I realized how much they use sex to control women and men growing up. But women, primarily women, like guilting women, like, you can't have sex before marriage. And I mean, just, you know, I thought I was going to hell when I had sex outside of one of.
- [13:35]
Host 2
Your main, like, I always hear you say this when we're doing these shows is.
- [13:38]
Host 1
That really gets you.
- [13:40]
Host 2
Is the. The patriarchal aspect of the Bible. It seems like when you say that, I can tell like you that that was really crammed down your throat. And I Feel like that in finding your own voice, not a voice that your mother forced onto you. Right. A life that they scripted for you, but in finding your. The person that everybody here knows that's the one that gets you the most is the patriarchy. And I want you to expand on that.
- [14:07]
Host 1
Okay. I think probably my aversion to it is, number one, I grew up in a house where the mom made all the decisions, was completely the brain trust of the whole thing. But she would sit there and say, I'm so glad that your dad is the leader of our household. But that's a mixed mess. Like, this man has never completed a sentence in, you know, 60 years marriage. And then another thing, I was sold.
- [14:29]
Host 2
A bill of goods.
- [14:30]
Host 1
If you're a good wife, if you are a good mother, then you don't have to worry about the things that other people do because you're chosen.
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Host 2
Was that language using? Was that using. Was that language used? Chosen?
- [14:46]
Host 1
Absolutely.
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Host 2
Your mother would tell you you were chosen.
- [14:50]
Host 1
No, no. In terms of being at church, like, if you're at church and you worship at this church, you are chosen. They say that absolutely from a very young age. And so if I did everything I was supposed to do and I checked all the boxes, then I wouldn't have, you know, these problems. I could be a mom and a good mom and a good wife, that kind of thing. And then what you realize is over 50% of the time that is a lie. And in so many situations, it is the female that has to take all the responsibility, financially, emotionally, mentally for a child. And so I view that as so dangerous because I don't want other girls that are following this script. Like, my life is going to be like this and I'm going to be a good wife, and I'm going to do all that. That, you know, not trad wife, but a version of trad wife that, you know, you don't have to worry about those things. And the reality is you do have to worry about those things. It is so important to have your own money. It is so important to be financially independent. And I had to learn that such the hard way. My aversion to it is that they're selling a line of bullshit that is so obviously bullshit and that I've experienced the bullshit. So that's why I think it hits me harder, is the lived experience of the failure of it.
- [16:13]
Host 2
Yeah. And I remember when you were going through that, the breakdown of your marriage, the lack of exit strategy, none was so debilitating for you, and you were an Attorney?
- [16:24]
Host 1
Yeah. A divorce attorney.
- [16:27]
Host 2
Yes. And you had abdicated all finances and everything to this man. And I remember we listener, we used to chain smoke cigarettes all the time. We're sitting on my front porch and she just, she couldn't. Like, she was like, I did everything right.
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Host 1
Everything.
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Host 2
I did everything I was supposed to do everything that you were taught. And so when you see the Erica Kirks and these women that are pushing onto a new generation, what was pushed onto you, it feels so personal.
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Host 1
It does, yeah. It's a visceral reaction.
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Host 2
That's why I think you're such a good messenger for number one. You've seen firsthand how women are abused in marriages and now having a no fault divorce, which is what MAGA wants to take away. I think it's a really important messaging. But I just, I remember when, you know, the ship started sinking, how just dumbfounded you were that prayer didn't work.
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Host 1
Dumbfounded were like no exit strategy, no ability to cope, no ability. I just wrap my head around I.
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Host 2
Did everything I was supposed to do.
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Host 1
How many times did I say I did everything right? You said 500 million.
- [17:34]
Host 2
I remember one time you said, I thought God was supposed to put barbed wire around me. And my. This imagery, this like spiritual warfare imagery. And I remember I looked at you, we were smoking, I was like, why do you think you're supposed to get barbed wire around you and your kids? And you looked me dead in the eye and you go, well, because I think God just likes me more than he likes other people. And I said, are you hearing yourself? I believed it.
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Host 1
I mean, that's what I was raised to believe.
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Host 2
You know, what's so crazy?
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Host 1
That's why it's so dangerous.
- [18:08]
Host 2
This is what something that I think is so interesting that people need to talk about more. You're smart, you went to law school, you passed the bar, you had a law practice. And so that requires a ton of critical thinking. And then when it came to, you know, about 10 years after all of that, the barbed wire sentence and being preferred, and that's not a pump saying this is a religious thing. It is. It's fascinating that the religion can suspend critical thinking. And I think to maga, because it has the same authoritarian structure that religion does, it suspends their critical thinking. So the people in the culture, Trump is presented as a messiah, not supporting him. You know, you have all of these horrible things that are going to happen to you transgender for everybody. They're coming to get you. The immigrants are coming together and eat your pets. All this, that, that, that, that authoritarian true line through line, it suspends critical thinking just like it did for you, a very smart person. But you were just indoctrinated in this one thing and you couldn't critically think about that. And this is where they. You, if you critically think about it, you're a blasphemer.
- [19:27]
Host 1
Right? Yeah.
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Host 2
Which is so manipulative.
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Host 1
It's a, it's a trick.
- [19:33]
Host 2
100. It's, it's. That's so manipulative. And that's.
- [19:36]
Host 1
You question it.
- [19:37]
Host 2
That's kind of what Israel is doing right now. I was just gonna say criticize the government of Israel. Then they call you an anti Semite. And so they try to, you know, hold everybody hostage with that. There's so many links to all of this. And I think that thing that our listener can take is if you're a member of a group that doesn't allow for criticism, it could be a cult.
- [20:02]
Host 1
Right.
- [20:02]
Host 2
You know, evangelical Christianity is when they freak out because you criticize it, that's a, that's a signal because everything should be open to criticism, further inquiry, further questions. And this idea in Pump's case of a patriarchal marriage, that the man has to do everything, you're not allowed to question him. There's all of these through lines with that, and it leads to what's happening with Israel. So those are kind of the red flags. But I also think we have to watch for, you know, groups of people where critical thinking gets completely suspended. The good news is you're a big critical thinker now.
- [20:43]
Host 1
I had to learn it like 35. All right. Like this video. Subscribe to our channel.