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- [00:01]
Kiana
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. I'm Kiana and I leveled up my business with Shopify. Once I figured out that Shopify was a thing, I never turned back. I can create a site with my eyes closed. Shopify thinks ahead of us, you know, and it thinks about the customer more than anything. Every day I'm thinking about some other new business, but Shopify is doing it to me because it's so easy to use. It's like, I can't stop. I'm addicted. Start your free trial@shopify.com.
- [00:56]
Interviewer / Host
All right. Joining me today on IHIP News is one of my favorite, favorite Instagram follows. His name is Lucas Bean. He is a behavioral researcher, creator, and podcast host, breaking down the psychology of power, politics and human nature on the Lucas Bean Podcast. And he joins me today on IHIP News. Lucas, how are you today?
- [01:19]
Lucas Bean
I am great. And it's such a pleasure to be on the show.
- [01:22]
Interviewer / Host
Thank you. So no matter where he is or who he's talking to, and of course, the he I'm referring to there is Trump.
- [01:29]
Lucas Bean
Yep.
- [01:30]
Interviewer / Host
He cannot get over his obsession with Barack Hussein Obama.
- [01:36]
Lucas Bean
Play the clip during the presidential fitness test. But others. And then we had the Obama administration. Wonderful, wonderful person. Barack Hussein Obama. Have you heard of him? We had the Obama administration, which phased out this wonderful tradition of physical fitness. Thank you, Barack, very much. Great job. Okay. All right. Crazy.
- [02:00]
Interviewer / Host
What's the psychology of this obsession with what I.
- [02:06]
Lucas Bean
The analysis. The. The analysis I've looked at, or at least the research I've seen, is he. I mean, obviously it's. The number one thing is scapegoating. Right. He's basically scapegoating Obama, and then that scapegoats the entire, basically entire black culture. That's the number one thing. But number two is what happened when Obama got elected is that they. He broke what they call the psychological wage of whiteness, where basically poor, white conservative people were taught for, like, hundreds of years that people were, you know, basically, even though you're white, you're better than the. Your neighbors because you're white compared to the person, your neighbor who might be black or the person that's Hispanic, that's your neighbor, you are better than them even though you're just as poor as These people. So Ed dubois called it the psychological wage of whiteness. But that got broken when Obama actually became president. They can no longer say you are better than a black person because the black person, a black person now like basically has the highest office in the land. So that broke the whole thing. That's why they go crazy for Obama because they're thinking, oh my God, I no longer have that feeling of superiority because the, their black people actually now maintain the highest office like highest office in the land. So kind of like breaks things.
- [03:35]
Interviewer / Host
And even Megan Kelly a couple of months ago on her podcast Lucas, she said we haven't felt the same since Obama was president. She said it out loud that it broke them. And here's an interesting nuance to that. So to the poor white person that found permission structure and a superiority structure in Trump to compensate for their lack of income. Trump trust fund baby fails forward all the time. And so do you just think this is just incredible jealousy in Trump, his personal obsession with him?
- [04:13]
Lucas Bean
I think it is. I mean he knows he can never be Obama. Like let's be honest, he was a statesman, he was well spoken. Obama was an amazing president. Probably the bet. Definitely the best president of my lifetime.
- [04:25]
Interviewer / Host
Same.
- [04:26]
Lucas Bean
And yeah, exactly. And we know that and everybody knows that. And Trump who is a, a person who is hum, like literally walks around in a, a bucket of shame and humiliation in his head every day, all day. He basically can't take the shame and ridicule that he is giving himself because he knows he'll never be the man Obama is. So he thinks I need to attack him over and over and over again. That's how I win. That's what his father, Fred Trump actually like instilled in his like psychology. Like you're a winner, so attack, attack, attack and never admit you're wrong. And it broke him. It made him into that narcissistic person and he's totally focused on someone who, hey, let me tear everything down this guy did because he is, he's like literally the man I could never be.
- [05:19]
Interviewer / Host
A lot of people link it to, I mean he was clearly there's a track record of Trump's racism and white supremacist default setting. But the White House correspondents dinner, when Obama, you know, that's what they do. When Obama jabbed at Trump. Trump cannot be self deprecating at all. And that was something that just, you know, he felt humiliated sitting there. That a black man that was living in the White House, sleeping in the, on the linens, eating off the China Humiliated him. Because Trump always wants to be with all the cool kids. Like, the MAGA crowd is not his first choice of people. He wants to be approved by. He wants to be approved by the Hollywood elite. And he's never quite been able to do that.
- [06:03]
Lucas Bean
Yeah, he's always wanted to be in the in crowd. And the only way for him to, I mean, in his mind, he's basically, it's him against the world. Imagine that. He can't trust even people in his family. He can't trust anybody that's, like, around him. That's his worldview of the world. So, like, everybody he's not able to trust. So he had to, like, take the lowest level, basically. I'm not going to say they're the lowest level, but they're pretty, These, his followers are pretty depraved. And these followers are so toxic. Like, this was his last chance to be cool. They all worship him. Like, now he actually has a chance of, like, then pointing these people's rage at all the people that never accepted him. So theoretically, he is getting even with these people psychologically, like, and physically getting even with these people, pointing all of these people at them. And now he's the cool guy. Now he's in charge. So it's really, it's really a toxic cycle of, like, scapegoating. I mean, it is. I, I don't know if I'm allowed to say fascism, but it is basically a fascist. I mean, this is what's going on right now. We have.
- [07:11]
Interviewer / Host
My upcoming book is called Not Today Fascists.
- [07:13]
Lucas Bean
Yeah, I love that, by the way. I love it. I can't wait. Yeah, it's. It's so cool. That's a great book. I can't wait to read it. So, yeah, it's definitely. I have a video out on YouTube, actually talks about, like, I, I broke it down into like, four phases of like, is this fascism? And we, I answer it with the, In a way, I answer it with the viewer and it basically explains, like, yes, we are in a fascist government. So unfortunately.
- [07:37]
Interviewer / Host
What do you make of him? That I don't know if it's late stage dementia or just his give a meter is just completely broken or a combination of the two. But airing the grievances with the children that he was talking about the Nobel Peace Prize with them. He was talking about, you would have been dead in two weeks if I hadn't invaded Iran. And then he's Barack Hussein Obama. And he says it all that way with kids, with literal kids. What do you make of that type of lack of self awareness and appropriate nature of how unprecedential and honestly, like, that's not how an adult should, in a position of power, should behave around children. What was your take on the optics of that setup?
- [08:25]
Lucas Bean
In my mind, when I saw that, I was, I just was like, this is just what a narcissist does, right? They're, they're both, they're both really the strongest person, the smartest person in the world, but yet they're the most victimized and aggrieved people in the world. Right?
- [08:42]
Interviewer / Host
Right.
- [08:42]
Lucas Bean
So like you, you can never like, it's either one or the other. I'm awesome, but I'm also the most aggrieved. Right. And it's like always like, I'm a victim, I'm the best, but I'm a victim. And it's basically the heel, if you really think about it, the heel in like WWE wrestling does exactly the same thing. So that kayfabe, that's why they bake like kayfabe into like whole theatrics of what they do also with like the sparkles and like what's her name? Kirk there who comes out like Erica Kirk comes out with like sparkles and stuff. The same thing's going on, right. They're all, it's like everybody's against them, but they're awesome. But everybody's against them. And it's. And so called a collective narcissism is what like his followers are under too. Right. So everybody thinks they're special now because Trump told them they were special and they are all now going, wait a minute, how? And then basically it's a. Do the most aggrieved people because you won't recognize how special they are. So they're upset about that. And they're like super special. And they have like some inside tip knowledge that the deep with knowledge of the deep state. So Trump is the same way. And he basically projects onto other people and his insecurity, like trying to convince, he's always trying to convince people that he is the aggrieved person and he's the best. And it's like, it's his voice that his father kind of like instilled in him. You can't break that. His father destroyed him and made him this narcissist that he is.
- [10:09]
Interviewer / Host
And it's interesting you talk about the collective narcissism because not only did Trump give a permission structure for maybe his lower income, poorly educated, he brags about, I do great with the poorly educated. Not only did he give them a permission structure for racism, making that bargain, you're not going to ever be rich, but you get to feel superior to these black and brown people. Also. I feel like he gave a permission structure to these oligarchs that seemingly tried to keep their grievances in check a little bit. They tried to be socially polite. And now you have a class of billionaires in the United States. If you get on Elon Musk's Twitter page, he's a trillionaire, all right. You would think that he was a black man trying to make his way through segregation in a pre segregated United States of America. Bill Ackman, he. These people and, and they write it out, they go on interviews and they are so aggrieved. So I feel like he unlocked a permission structure on the low end of the economic chain, but he's also given a permission structure for this abject, unhinged narcissism. There's this one billionaire rhino. Tell me his. He, he's made all this money and he's on Twitter all the time calculating his erections and posting about them. What's the guy's name? Brian Johnson. Yes, I know who he is. Like now they're all like, okay, we can just be as crazy as we want because at least Trump is always going to be a little bit crazier. The permission structures on both end of that is very fascinating to me that he's unlocked and just how there's a collective unhinged nature of personality disorders on full display that are being normalized every single day.
- [12:02]
Lucas Bean
Yeah, I think Brian. So Brian Johnson, totally under. He's a, he's a different kind of character. He's, he's more of like a, you know, he was a tech founder. That's where he got all his money and, and basically exited. Exited a business and then became like this like health hacker. Right? He's trying to live forever. I believe that that's the guy you were talking about. He's a little bit different. Don't get me wrong. He's just as Narciss. But yeah, I think, I think when you say you Trump gave permission for these people to be who they really are rather than being polite anymore. They don't, they're not asking for permit for permission. It's like an ace. It's called asymmetric norm enforcement. So they want, they want to not follow the rules and they want all of us to follow the rules. And it's like every authoritarian like power that's ever come into power throughout history has had this asymmetric norm enforcement, and they want all of us to be like, yeah, everything's okay. We. We want to, like, worship us. We're the billionaires. In a way. It's kind of putting in. It kind of put into our society already because people already worship, like, Elon Musk. People already worship, like, Jeff Bezos. They talk about them like they're the smartest, most genius people in the world, when really, you know, a lot of them. No. No offense to them. A few of them actually got quite lucky in certain situations. So even. And even worse, like, Elon Musk is a. Is an immigrant, and yet he is against immigrants, which is fascinating. He was actually an illegal immigrant for a while.
- [13:34]
Interviewer / Host
Yeah.
- [13:34]
Lucas Bean
And he moved to. I believe he. He went to Stanford and then dropped out and then was not legally supposed to be in the United States for years and years and years. So. Yeah, I just think it's interesting that they. They have this asymmetric norm enforcement of, like, yeah, I'm gonna. I want you guys to follow the rules, but, you know, for me, what rules? Like, rules don't apply, and you need to, like, worship me. And, you know, it's like, hey, all the prices are going up. Let them eat cake.
- [13:58]
Interviewer / Host
Right?
- [13:59]
Lucas Bean
And we know what happened during the French Revolution when, you know, people say, let them eat cake. Right? So eventually the mob. The mob will come for you, unfortunately.
- [14:08]
Interviewer / Host
So, yeah, kind of like that came from Mike Pence. Trump support is falling, reaching as low as 32% in some polls. What is the psychology behind the hardcore MAGA cult who will never leave him, no matter what he does? Shoot somebody on fifth Avenue.
- [14:27]
Lucas Bean
Yeah.
- [14:27]
Interviewer / Host
And still loving.
- [14:29]
Lucas Bean
You know what? From my research, I. I'm gonna say that these. There are some. These, like, four dark psychological traits that make up his, like, fanatical base. And they are the. The. It's called the four Tetrad. It's basically like, pure narcissists or, like, people high in narcissistic traits. Machiavellianism and psychopathy. And the last one is everyday sadism. And these people. There's a lot more of these folks in the United States that have, like. They don't classify. They don't fit into, like, the exact perfect box of, like, oh, I'm a narcissistic. Narcissistic personality disorder. But they have, like, really high narcissistic traits that make them really bad people. And same thing with Machiavellianism. Same thing with, like, psychopathy. They're very high in psychopathy. They're very high in narcissistic traits. And what I noticed about these folks is that from my observation, at least, and I've known thousands of them, I'm from Connecticut, so go figure, right? These. These guys, like, they can never be wrong. I noticed that, like, it never. Before Trump, they could never admit they were wrong about anything. So, like, imagine a person who can never admit they're wrong and then getting involved in something that's like a cult, because, like, let's be honest, like, the Trump movement, the MAGA cult, is like a cult, like a real deal.
- [15:51]
Interviewer / Host
Totally.
- [15:52]
Lucas Bean
So these folks are, like, they're very toxic, can't be wrong, and they will burn everything down in their lives for these people, for. For Trump. And that is a problem because, you know, even after World War II. I don't know if I'm allowed to even say this, but after World War II, when, like, the Nazis were defeated, there were fanatics that would not. Dental one really talks about this that much in history, but there were fanatics that would just not give up. And they fought to the last man. A lot of these Nazi, like, SS guys, or they took the, you know, the other way out. But they knew what they did was unforgivable. So instead of, like, owning up to all this stuff, they, you know, they basically fought to the last man or they took a different way out, like I said. So theoretically, you can't stop some of these, like, sycophantal, like, people. They're gonna be there no matter what. The only way that Trump, I think the Trump cult falls is when he is no longer in office. And those fanatics will do crazy stuff, but, like, it's a very, you know, it's like 20 million of his followers. I would say 25. And this is just my estimate, right. 20 to 25 million of his followers are, like, fanatics, and they totally are. Yeah.
- [17:08]
Interviewer / Host
I think in researching for my book, Not Today Fascists, I think there is a link with a lot of these followers. I'm from Oklahoma, in the buckle of the Bible Belt, and so lots of evangelical Christians. And I have found research that shows that if you are of an authoritarian religion, and evangelical Christianity is a very authoritarian religion, black and white worldview. Everything in the Bible, 100% of it is true. Noah's ark, earth 6,000 years old, virgin birth, the whole nine, you. And if you were to think anything critically about that, that's blasphemy. So it's very authoritarian, and there's a cruelty to it. There's a cruelty to telling a young brain that might say really flooded the earth and then all these animals got on the boat and floated around. No, you can't think that God's testing your faith. There's a cruelty to that. And a lot of these parents in that are, that are members of authoritarian churches are also authoritarian parenting styles.
- [18:09]
Lucas Bean
Yes.
- [18:10]
Interviewer / Host
And so the psychological soil is so primed for these people. For Trump, the biggest question I get, I moved to New York now, is why do these Bible thumpers, why do they like Trump so much? And for me, growing up around all of these extreme evangelical Christians, I mean, they're just almost like in a state of religious psychosis all the time. They feel like they have to recruit everybody. I was an atheist. I mean, I'm a. On every prayer list you can imagine was an atheist. I am an atheist. And constantly, you know, being proselytized to. For them to jump on board with Donald Trump made perfect sense to me because in all of the times that I was recruited, Lucas, I would go to these churches and the pastor was just like, Donald Trump had the, you know, the hair, the suit, the rambling talking. I alone can fix this. I can do everything right to me, the through line in that. And when you look at the numbers of how evangelicals showed up for Donald Trump, I mean, you're looking at the highest group of support for him. I think there's a component in American culture where we still have a crazy Christian problem, not a Christian problem. If to my listeners or your listeners who are Christian light, you're not trying to change, you know, recruit people and take their money and all of these things, that's. That's your faith, that's your own spiritual journey. But this crazy Christian problem that America has, the pro life folks, the second Amendment folks, the. We all have to help the billionaires accumulate wealth, Our pastors also accumulating wealth, There seems to be a really big through line there that people are able to go on board with. Somebody that believes in forgiveness without accountability, because that's what evangelical Christianity is. Jesus, forgive me. Poof, you're forgiven.
- [20:08]
Lucas Bean
Yeah, it's unfortunate. And in my research as well, it backs up your research. So it's basically, you know, these folks did come from toxic, abusive, authoritarian households where it's get. Go along to get along. And there was a dynamic of like, scapegoating that was involved. So they would always have a scapegoat in this family dynamic. They would always have like, the golden children who just like, went along to get along. And those golden children, those People who did fall into line. And by the way, Donald Trump falls into this category too. Not to feel sorry for Donald Trump, but he was in a family like that as well, where his brother was scapegoated, and he witnessed his brother being scapegoated, and his brother died at like, 42 years old of alcoholism because he was so distraught from the way he was abused by his father and stuff like that. So their authoritarianism makes perfect sense. So. And then also having very comp. Like having a simple answer, but which this. Which is what the Bible has always done. Right. When we didn't have enough science, the Bible was always there to give you, like, really simple, straightforward answers to complex problems. And when you have a straightforward answer to a very complex problem, people feel, like, comforted by it. When really the pro. The answer is, like, multiple things, right. And you can't just answer it with this black and white thinking. But everybody wants a shorty. Like, that's why the Bible was around, right? We. We needed answers to, like, why was there a solar eclipse? Because of God. Why did my life get screwed up? Like, why did a horse run me over? Oh, because of God. Right. It's God's will, you know, like, don't forget about Satan.
- [21:45]
Interviewer / Host
He's a big power player in that whole theology as well.
- [21:48]
Lucas Bean
He is, Yeah. I agree. The funny thing is, like, and also what I also find interesting is, like, they're pro life, but if you look at the Bible, like, literally, God killed everybody on earth and genocide put on. Yeah. And put. I mean, everybody on earth except for Noah and the. The animals. I got onto the ship. So it's like, so wait, you're pro life, But I think it's more like you're pro birth, but you're not really pro life. Let's go to war with people. I don't know. I find that. I find that really interesting as well. But, yeah, the authoritarian part is that these folks slide right back into the black and white thinking because Trump offers them the black and white thinking that was given to them growing up as kids. So it's like it fits perfectly. Oh, my God. This is just. And that's why they call him Daddy. Like, have you seen the shirt to say daddy Trump, Daddy's home, Stuff like that. I made a video about this. Like the. I have, like, probably like 50 videos on the psychology of, like, the authoritarian parent and these guys. Yeah, and that's what. That was one of the videos. It's like, daddy's home. It's like you're an Adult talking about a, like you're a 40 year old guy talking about like an 80 year old man. Yeah. They want Trump to be their, their, their father that finally accepts them. That's what I've actually taken from this. And I'm. I don't know about you, but I was a black sheep as a kid. I grew up with like three brothers. I was like scapegoated like crazy, which made me impervious to cult mentality. Like, I'm always like, yeah, I don't agree with you. Like none of. I just don't, I don't know how I don't fall into it, but it's so hard for me to even, like, this is why I started making videos by the way, is that I didn't understand how people could get sucked in to worshiping anybody. Like, I mean, I get the religion thing. I'm a recovering Catholic. I gave it up when I was like 15. But people, people just want simple answers to complex questions. And that's what religion gives them. And before we had science, like that's all we had. Right. So I think it makes sense. But still, like, they will, these people will only change when the cult starts hurting them personally. And gas prices, like, it's hurting them grocery prices, it's hurting him, which is reducing his support every day and to the most. The people who had really nothing going on in their lives, no community, no nothing, they were just like, trump is my WWE wrestler. He's the heel. Like, it's there. It's their Andre the Giant, right? It's their Hulk Hogan. When Hulk Hogan turned like dark Hulk Hogan. I don't even know wwe, but I know enough that they love the heels of like wrestling and that they're. It doesn't affect them until it affects them. And then that's when they start, they start having second guesses. So.
- [24:37]
Interviewer / Host
Okay, final question.
- [24:38]
Lucas Bean
Sure.
- [24:39]
Interviewer / Host
I have noticed that I say that Trump is in his deathbed confession era. He is, he. He can't help but narrate what his intentions are about things and what he really thinks. Whereas a lot of autocrats like Putin, he keeps it all very close to the vest. He never shows his cards. Well, Trump is a grandstander, a bluster blow hard, all of the things. And he just seems like he is always talking about how attractive he thinks men are. And I don't know if you saw this incident at the UFC fight. And he bends down to the racer and he's patting his leg. Not the racer, the fighter. And he's like, you're too good looking to be fight. You're so good looking. And on the campaign trail, he was talking about the size of Arnold Palmer's penis. And he simulated with striking familiarity, giving a microphone a blowjob. And then it's, you know, look at this good looking guy. He's so good looking. And then you sign, just, you know, just going after mom. Donnie, I have a theory that in within the MAGA movement, this breed of toxic masculinity is to mask some bi curiosity or homo curiosity among these men. Because straight men don't have a problem with having to prove their masculinity. They don't need to. It's not something like, well, I'm straight. You know, somebody's talking about being straight all the time. You're like, they're gay. I mean, shut up.
- [26:05]
Lucas Bean
Exactly.
- [26:05]
Interviewer / Host
And so I, I. And living in the Bible belt, you know, and having a lot of gay friends. Grindr is just full of married MAGA men. Full of married. It's epidemic. And this is why Grindr crashes all the time, where it's Turning Point. Charlie Kirk funeral, Republican National Convention. Have you done any research on this? Like the Lindsey Graham of it all, Thou doth protest too much.
- [26:30]
Lucas Bean
Yes. And I love that, I love that phrase. I, I use it all the time. Yeah, it's fascinating. There was a 96 study about this where they tested like the most like a bunch of, they had a bunch of like volunteers show up and the guys who are like the most homophobic, the most angry, the most like rage filled about basically like gay people, they put them in a study and they like scanned their brains and scanned like basically all of their, like, basically all their body reactions, like sweat and everything like that. And they showed him like gay porn. And like 50 of the guys who were actually the most homophobic were the ones that like reacted to gay porn. It was crazy. And then the, the guys who were, that were not homophobic, only like less than 25 of those guys, like were reacted to gay porn. They're just like, yeah, okay, whatever. So you're right. I mean there is definitely like scientific evidence that these guys, like, especially Trump, let's be honest, like Trump. And any guy that's like, oh yeah, look at this guy, he's real handsome guy. Like first, that's obviously insecurity. And he knows, he's like, man, that's a really, he can't, he doesn't have a filter because I believe he's like in a narcissistic collapse right now. Anyway, he's getting old, so he can't, like, keep up that vigor that he feels like he needs to have. And he knows he's like, I think he's also, you know, very ill. So he sees other virile men. He's like, oh, this guy's really good looking. But also there is that extra piece of him that the filter's gone. And he's just going, man, that's a good looking guy. He really does have a jealousy and a kink probably where he's looking at these guys going, I'd like to, you know, have my way with that guy. I mean, at the end of the day, I think, I think you're right. I think you're right. And Lindsey Graham. Are you kidding me? Of course. And the same way Johnson, like all those guys.
- [28:18]
Interviewer / Host
Yes, Very.
- [28:20]
Lucas Bean
They seem very. Oh, we're against that. That's against my beliefs. Not really. Dude. I think if we hooked you up to that same study, you'd be one of the 50% that's like spiking like, oh, yeah, really? So trans people, like, that's the, literally
- [28:36]
Interviewer / Host
the reason this study, Lucas, there was a study about trans porn hot spots. The number one place in the entire United States of America that consumes the most trans porn was a. Is a place called Lawton, Oklahoma. And Lawton is just a redneck, military, Trump style, Deep red county. Deep red. The people that are probably like, I don't like this woke ideology. I'm not voting for these woke liberals and these sharia law people whacking off wieners, they're the ones consuming all the, all the trans porn. And so I think that's just a fascinating, a fascinating component I have on our show a lot. She's a premier. The premier leading scholar in authoritarianism and autocrats. And she said the through line in all of this, all of this all through history is homophobia. Yes, it is the through line that connects all dictatorships, autocracies, et cetera. Lucas Bean, I am so happy that we finally collabed. I love your Instagram videos and I want everyone to go follow Lucas and we'll put your how to follow you on the screen here.
- [29:51]
Lucas Bean
Thank you.
- [29:51]
Interviewer / Host
But I like that it's not so intellectually lazy. I mean, it's easy to just kind of make fun of these people, but there's actually a psychological reason and a lot of us are just really broken and now we have enough science to help us get better.
- [30:05]
Lucas Bean
Yeah, there's a psychological reason for that. So there's no doubt about it that's
- [30:09]
Interviewer / Host
what he always says. You guys go follow my friend Lucas Bean. Go subscribe to his podcast, the Lucas Bean Podcast. Thank you so much, Lucas.
- [30:17]
Lucas Bean
Thanks for having me.