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- [00:00]
A
Hey, it's Howie Mandel and I am inviting you to witness history as me and my Howie do it. Gaming team take on Gilly the king and wallow. $267 million gaming in an epic global gaming league video game showdown. Four rounds, multiple games, one winner, plus a halftime performance by multi platinum artist Travie McCoy. Watch all the action and see who wins and advances to the championship match against Neo right now@globalgamingleague.com that's globalgamingleague.com everybody. Games.
- [00:36]
B
All right, listener. We are living in an incredibly dangerous time where we are told if we criticize something, we see with our eyes, read or hear with our ears, that somehow we are bigoted. And this type of suppression of speech and free thought is incredibly dangerous. And here to discuss this with me is my friend Jason Stanley. He is a professor of American studies and philosophy at at the University of Toronto's Monk School. He is the author of several books including Erasing History, How Fascists Rewrite the Past to Control the Future and How Fascism Works. And for everybody in the New York area, he has an event in Brooklyn on March 26th. And I think now is the best time on the planet to go support experts, actual smart people, and that actual smart person. Professor Stanley, how are you today?
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A
Good. How are you, Jennifer?
- [01:33]
B
Hanging in there. Talking with you and having this community helps a lot because I think it's important that we feel a sense of unity and togetherness, that we're not insane. But I want to talk to you about what's happening with Israel. It really bothers me that there is a lot out in Western media right now that if we criticize Israel and the actions that they are taking, that somehow we are anti Semitic. This is very disturbing. You and I texted about this and we decided you needed to come on to talk to my viewers about this. Please enlighten us about what's going on here.
- [02:12]
A
Yeah, I mean, this is the agenda of the state of Israel and it seems bizarrely to be the agenda of the Trump regime. And let's be clear, by any stretch of the imagination, to equate criticism of Israel with antisemitism is anti Semitic. That is antisemitism. Take the International Holocaust remembrance alliance definition of antisemitism, which is very restrictive. We all criticize. Definitely bans certain kinds of legitimate criticisms of Israel, one could say. But let's look at it according to this restrictive definition. Calling criticism of Israel antisemitic is anti Semitic. It says holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the State of Israel is antisemitic. So it is. If you say that criticism of Israel is anti Semitic, what you're saying is that, well, if you criticize Israel, you are criticizing Jews. So it's anti Semitic to say that if you're criticizing Israel, you're criticizing Jews, you're being anti Semitic. In other words, here's a shock. The Trump regime is anti Semitic. Here's another characterization of anti Semitism. Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide than to the interests of their own nation is anti Semitic. Well, pretty much every American administration in my lifetime has been anti Semitic according to this definition. They constantly tell us that we Americans, that our primary and chief protector is Israel rather than the countries whose passports we hold, rather than the countries in which we live and to whom we have a primary allegiance. So, unsurprisingly, this entire campaign, Israel, it's obvious why Israel is waging this anti Semitic campaign against we Jews in the Diaspora, against we Jews who live outside of Israel and have other nationalities, because they have their own. They're a foreign nation who has their own interests in mind. They don't care about us Jewish people who live in America or who live in Canada. They want us to come to Israel. So they don't. They're anti. They're by the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance. They're anti Semitic. And let's be clear about who is advocating for these anti Semitic policies that are in the interests of the state of Israel. It's Christian nationalists. What are the interests of Christian nationalists? The interests of Christian nationalists are to make the United States a Christian nation, to make me and my family into foreigners in our own nation.
- [05:22]
B
Yes. And I grew up in a Christian nationalist state. And they're rapture preppers. I mean, their plans for Jewish people are inherently anti Semitic because you were to be in Israel so that Jesus can come down and say, you on my team. And if you say no, I'll pass. You're going to burn in hell forever. But this is what's so horrific about Benjamin Netanyahu, who is a war criminal. This man is a homicidal maniac that we're told we cannot critique. And here is, I think, one of the more dangerous spokespeople in the United States, which is Jonathan Greenblatt. And I think he is doing more damage to Jews worldwide and to independent thought and to intellectual inquiry than hardly anybody out there. And here he is conflating criticism of Israel, meaning it's criticism of Jewish people, which leaves People like you and all of the Jewish people in America, completely unsafe. Play the clip.
- [06:25]
A
Look at what happened in the days after the US And Israel launched the military operations against Iran. I mean, whatever your views on the conflict might be, and reasonable people can hold very reasonable differences, what happened next was not about policy. It wasn't about geopolitics. It was about blame. And the blame, as it so often does, was placed at the feet of who else? The Jews. For some, they pointed fingers at the Israelis, who they claimed whispered a few too many times in President Trump's ear.
- [07:18]
B
Okay, that's good. President Trump admitted that Benjamin Netanyahu convinced him to go to war. And so this conflation right there where he is trying to emotionally blackmail somebody who is politically engaged and watching what's happening in the world, when you see Benjamin Netanyahu, a video of him pathologically lying, super cut. Over 40 years, Iran's going to have a nuke. Tomorrow, Iran's going to have a nuke. In a month, Iran's going to have a nuke. And then after he finally convinces Trump, the most idiotic US President, to do this, when he finally convinces him, he says, this has been my dream come true for 40 years. And then this guy, Jonathan Greenblatt, wants to tell us that we can't believe what we. What these people are telling us, what Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu have told us that they colluded to do this illegal, horrific war where I would think, if Jonathan Greenblatt were so all about human rights, does he mention the little girls that were shot with a Tomahawk missile? Does he mention all the kids that his Benjamin Netanyahu kills with impunity? And it seems to me like this feature of IDF mission where people get killed in schools and in hospitals, it is a feature, not a bug, of their military provocations. And it's coupled with all of this horrific, dangerous propaganda that leaves you realizing, holy shit, Jews are going to be so unsafe because of this dangerous propaganda.
- [08:59]
A
First of all, let me say that right now my principal concern is with the people being bombed by the United States and Iran and Israel. So let me just state that clearly that my concern is with who we are killing. But obviously this makes us unsafe. And look at what Jonathan Greenblatt said. Jonathan Greenblatt said that people are collectively blaming Jews. That's anti Semitic, to blame Jews for the actions of the State of Israel. But who's responsible for connecting? Who's responsible for antisemitism? Who's spreading antisemitism? Jonathan Greenblatt is the primary spreader of antisemitism in the United States today. He's the one who connects my people with Israel and with Bibi Netanyahu, who has been in power for almost as long as Vladimir Putin. This is not a democracy. This is, at best, competitive authoritarianism. So Bibi Netanyahu is not a Democrat. He's part of this cabal of autocrats, Putin, Trump and some others. And this is not a democracy. We're partnering with. We are full partners with Israel in a war. And Jonathan Greenblatt is going around saying, you can't say that. You can't say that we're under the influence of a foreign nation. Look, I am as pro Ukrainian as you can get. I have a position at the Kyiv School of Economics. I go to Ukraine every year to support the people of Ukraine in their battle against this war of aggression by Russia. But this is a war of aggression. This violates international law. Now, its targets are, well, Lebanon is a kind of bystander target. The people of Lebanon to this, of course, Hezbollah not. But the people of Lebanon are. And it's obvious that Israel, which is, let me point out, a foreign nation, Israel, is influencing the policy of the United States, deeply influencing. Now, of course, Israel has long been influencing the policy of the United States. But this is a particularly egregious example. And what Jonathan Greenblatt is saying is you're not allowed to say that. Now, if you look at on pain of being accused of anti Semitism, when he is the one connecting my people to a genocide, he's connecting my people to massive human rights violations. I'm a German Jew. My great grandfather was the cantor at the Vesadenstasse Synagogue between 1912 and 1938. And the rabbi was Leo Baeck, for much of that time was Leo Baeck. And Leo Baeck wrote this book, the Essence of Judaism, where he said or pointed out, man is in the image of God. We are created in the image of God, all of us. Leo Beck My tradition is the German Jewish tradition. Haskellah, Moses, Mendelssohn, in that tradition, we are universalists. We stand for social justice for humanity. And Jonathan Greenblatt is attacking the entire tradition that my great grandfather and family stood for. So when I see that people say German Jews, they got what was coming to them. They were passive victims. My grandmother went into Sachsenhausen and saved hundreds of people because these were her fellow countrymen, Jewish labor union activists, and she saved them because they were her fellow countrymen. She was not Some sort of weak victim. German Jews had some of the highest achievements of human civilization, and then they faced European antisemitism that said that they. What did Hitler said? Hitler said Jews were a nation within a nation. They were really loyal to something else. Well, what are we being told now? That if you criticize Israel, if you point out the very clear fact that Israel is pushing this anti Semitic narrative, that if you attack it, you're attacking Jews, you are buttressing the worst form of antisemitism in history and you are connecting us to massive human rights violations, something which violates the essence of Judaism. Throughout the 20th century, Jews have been at the forefront, have been partners with other groups and their partners. Many of us are partners today with the Palestinian people, defending the Palestinian people and associating us with a regime that is led by an autocrat that is clearly committing atrocities. That is an apartheid state that discriminates in its laws and certainly in its practices against other people because they do not share an identity that is not consistent. I don't want that identified with my people. I don't want that connected with my people. And let's be clear. What the ADL is doing is setting up antisemitism. They are pushing anti Semitic tropes and they're using my people, my identity, to attack democracy and democracy, universal human rights. Those are the things that made us Jewish people free. We suffered 1500 years of antisemitism in Europe. We had the most brutal treatment possible. And the times that have freed us, the times that gave us most freedom were when liberalism and universal human rights gave us rights again. After World War II in Europe, we had rights again. We had equal rights again. And so when I see this person attacking liberalism in the name of Judaism, I ask myself, when have the Jewish people been protected by attacking human rights? Human rights have been the things that have saved us. They protected us from the Nazis and they defended us from the groups that came in that protected us, protected us in the name of liberalism. Our brief moment of freedom and liberty in the 19th century and early 20th century was because of universal human rights. And here we have the ADL attacking the very thing that freed us.
- [16:18]
B
It's really stunning because I believe very firmly in universal human rights, which is why when I see people on the right like Tucker, Carl Carlson or Marjorie Taylor Greene that are criticizing the United States, that are criticizing Israel, but then Marjorie Taylor Greene has a sign outside of her office that says there are only two genders. And Tucker Carlson, three weeks ago was on his podcast referring to gay men as F a G G o ts. And so I can deduce from that that this person quantifies which people are important and which people aren't. And that's not good enough. That that means you're going to leave a group off to the side that's going to be vulnerable. And the way I see it right now, when I hear there's a rise in anti Semitism, I agree, I've seen that. But I also think it is intellectually dishonest to not say there is also a massive rise in anti immigrant bigotry. And these people are being put into camps, served food with worms, some of them are being shot. People are dying in detention. And this seems to be. That should be the top news story. And somebody that John, like Jonathan Greenblatt, should be screaming at the top of his lungs to fight this injustice. But instead, there's always this desire to quantify which human rights rank them in order. And that's always just a huge red flag to me about who you can trust in this fight.
- [17:49]
A
Jonathan Greenblatt is a fascist. So, you know, that's what he is. So, you know, and he shills for fascism and he uses my people's identity to shill for fascism. We're not fascists. Who in the world appointed the ADL as anti fascists? And they were using that. I mean, you know, I mean, I don't know if it's Jonathan Greenblatt, I don't know if it's long baked into the structure of adl, but whatever is happening with the adl, that's a fascist organization right now, they're in danger. And as you say, they're trying to switch the narrative from fascism, from xenophobia, from anti LGBTQ laws, attacks from Islamophobia. They're trying to intentionally shift the conversation. And on whose behalf are they trying to shift the conversation on behalf of a foreign nation? And I don't get it. You know, we're allowed to talk about Russia's influence. Why talk about Israel's influence? And then you look at. You look at the discourse in the mainstream media, not you. One reason I wanted to come on this podcast is you tell it like it is, and you are protecting Jewish people by so doing. But why can't we mention. If you don't mention Israel what Greenblatt is saying, you mention Israel, the ADL will come after you. So you better talk about this war of aggression where the United States is fully partnering with Israel, not just like, in some theoretical way, not just by buying them bombs, as we've always done, supplying them with munitions, but by fully partnering with them. What Jonathan Greenblatt is saying is, if you mention Israel, then we will go after you. Now, you cannot talk about this war without mentioning Israel. It makes no sense. It's an emperor has no clothes moment, right? I mean, you listen to the media and like, well, the, the, the cause for the war. It's very mysterious why we're doing whose benefit, nobody's benefit. It's. It's really unclear. It's perfectly clear who wants Iran to be a failed state. Reason backwards from the goals of this war. They're make Iran a failed state in what? Whose country's interest in that is that? It's not in the interest of Bahrain. It's not in the interests of a bunch of places. They're saying it's in the interest in. It's in the interests of one country. It's in the interests of Israel, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia. They want stability in the region. Israel wants to be surrounded by failed states. But you're not allowed to say that. And anyone, any coverage that doesn't mention Israel as one of the primary causes. I don't deny that Trump is doing this for domestic reasons as well. But if you can't mention Israel, you're not talking about the war. And we have to hold the media to account for that. We have to make sure, like it is. Watching American media right now is surreal. Because it's surreal.
- [21:15]
B
It's insane. Did you see the interview with the governor of Pennsylvania, Josh Shapiro? And he was on Pod Save America. And those guys are. I like those guys, they're independent voices. But they ask him about Gavin Newsom's statement that there's an apartheid state with Israel and Palestine. And they asked Josh Shapiro, and he goes on this word salad answer. And he goes, well, and it's nuanced and we have to provide space. And it's. This is why people cannot stand politics right now. And there's a fear of everybody descending in denialism. We need politicians and Experts that say 100%, it's an apartheid state. All of these organizations we're 25 deep in, they all agree. The science is in the conclusion is there. Shut the fuck up and let's move on to the next thing. But when you have people that argue facts, I think that is so dangerous. And that's what fascism does. That drives me the most crazy is it allows the electorate to argue facts. Is climate change real? Do vaccines cause autism? All this shit where we dismantle expertise. And then you have a governor of Pennsylvania who cannot admit the obvious. It is a layup question and he can't admit it. And then he tells the audience that. It's so nuanced and it's so difficult to understand. And I bought into that for a long time, Jason. And it's really not nu. Nuanced. It's really not hard to understand. It is an apartheid state. Benjamin Netanyahu is a war criminal. It is a genocide. They are massive human rights violators. They are buying off both political parties with influence. All of those are facts that should not be disputed.
- [22:59]
A
Yeah, I mean, if Israel is not engaging in apartheid, then the term has no meaning. So, you know, I mean, so now, now I think that there are various moves people make. They're like, well, every country is a settler colonial state. Started as Canada, as United States is. But Canada and the United States are not right now doing a genocide against indigenous people. They're not right now doing those practices that they did in the founding of our nations of Canada and the United States. Right now, Israel is doing to Palestinians the existential crime that the United States and Canada did to their indigenous people. We like to think that we wouldn't do that right now. So the question is not what happened at the Nakba, what happened at the founding. That's a move people make to deflect criticism. Right now we are watching a genocide of indigenous people. Right now we're watching what happened on the Trail of Tears. So it has nothing to do with the past. We need to stop these actions right now. And it's just like it is beyond surreal. Again, just to repeat myself, the American media is like Russia right now. Like the head scratching. Why are we doing this? In whose interest is this? When everyone and everyone is scared of this anti Semitic conflation of saying my people are connected to the actions of this apartheid state run by a genocidal autocratic maniac, when my people are actually. Hitler took us as synonymous with universal human rights. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the most anti Semitic document of the 20th century, says we are responsible. We Jewish people are responsible for liberalism. The connection between liberalism and Jews is not only within Jewishness itself. It's central to really our lives, our traditions, our safety. It's why we were attacked. So I'm just not seeing why. And then this is supposed to be a free country where we see even democratic governors not stating obvious facts about foreign nations. This is a foreign nation. Why is it that you're allowed to say oh, Russia is Russia, which is an evil country right now. Why is it, you know, people condemn Russia as a foreign nation for interviewing. Intervening in our politics? What I mean, it is. And then when you have that kind of complete distortion of reality distortion, when you're not allowed to say the emperor has no clothes, then, then you can't have democracy. You literally can't have. You can't have public discourse based on truth. Propaganda involves not just saying true things, it involves omitting true things as well. So what we have in the United States is a complete propaganda environment and propaganda machine. The ADL is central to the cogs of that attack on democracy. They're central to propping up fascism. Because what they're doing is they're saying, we can only have a propagandistic discussion in this country. We cannot state obvious truths. And then we see a lot of the mainstream media people. You can see why this completely distorts the discussion of Iran. Who's out there talking about Iran? People. Head scratching. What's going on? Here are seven different theories as to this mysterious thing that's going on.
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B
Right.
- [27:36]
A
In other words, we can't have a public discussion about our own actions as a nation.
- [27:42]
B
And this is why I want to have you on. Because this notion that's being pitched to the American people, that Jewish people all believe this one thing is so intellectually dishonest. And more than that, it's dangerous. And so I want to highlight your voice and other voices within the Jewish community as the. As to the dangers you face because of this propaganda. Tell my listeners about your event in Brooklyn on March 26th.
- [28:10]
A
So the paperback edition of my book Erasing History is coming out. This book was published in September 2024 in anticipation of what we were going to face. And it's about the attack on history, the attack on perspectives, including Palestinian perspectives. I talk about the history of that attack, the wiping out the claims that members of the Israeli government do that there are no such thing as the Palestinian people, and the attack on black history in the United States. So Erasing History comes out in paperback today. And this is its launch event with Nicole Hannah Jones, and it's at St. Anne's Church in Brooklyn. And Nikole, Hannah Jones is the ideal person to be speaking about the attack on history. Her work, her work is really a contribution to American patriotism. She's saying part of the. It's central to the tale of American democracy. The actions of black Americans are central to the successes of American democracy. They're central to the story of progress that we as a nation have made. And then she was attacked for being anti American. Why was she attacked for being anti American? Because she was saying black people had agency in America's progress and ideals. So it's not going to be like a book launch event where she asked me questions about the book. It's really going to be an event where I ask Nicole Hannah Jones about her experiences. And we have in this fascist attack on black history and her role in the historical moment today, which I believe is very central. She's mentioned in these executive orders and she's a target of these initiatives. And it's going to be a discussion about the inside workings of the attack on history and the attack on factuality that we're discussing today with one of the central targets of this fascist attack, Nicole Hannah Jones.
- [30:26]
B
Jason, you are so brave. I love it. I love that she's mentioned in these executive orders and you're not going to obey in advance and you'll continue to preach our free expression, our free speech, and call a spade a spade and cut through the propag. I think it's so important. I think voices like yours, experts telling us what is happening here is so important. So thank you. You know, you're welcome. On my podcast, anytime. When you're in New York next week, let's collab in person again. Let's run it back.
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A
And thank you for what you do.
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B
Thank you, J.