PIERCE BROWN on Red God, BookTok, and the World of Red Rising

Summary

I'll Read What She's Reading: PIERCE BROWN on Red God, BookTok, and the World of Red Rising

Date: November 12, 2025
Hosts: Reggie, Kennedy, Mikayla
Guest: Pierce Brown

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Episode Overview

The hosts welcome Pierce Brown, bestselling author of the Red Rising series, as their first-ever male guest. The episode dives deep into Brown's writing process, his feelings on BookTok, rapid-fire bookish preferences, fandom and adaptation discussions, and advice for both readers and writers. Brown shares insight into the creation and continuation of Red Rising, details his unconventional writing habits, addresses fandom anxieties about the upcoming Red God, and leaves listeners with plenty of memorable quotes and laughs.

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BookTok & Social Media: Navigating Modern Book Culture

Timestamps: [00:44]-[06:42]

• Joining BookTok:
  Brown, with good humor, describes being "summoned" to BookTok by prominent creator Brandon. Despite calling himself a Luddite, he realizes the importance of connecting with readers on current platforms:

  • "We live in the 21st century, so it seemed right to be on BookTok, lest I be a relic of the past." [00:55]
  • He limits engagement to Thursdays to maintain discipline and avoid getting hooked on dopamine from constant notifications.

• Impact of BookTok:
  The hosts note Brown's books have gone viral on BookTok. Brown attributes this grassroots success to word-of-mouth:

  • "Books are still really grassroots, right? They find a way." [05:26]
  • He reflects on the chain reaction of readers recommending books, crediting platforms like BookTok for expanding his audience.

• “Boy books” vs. “Girl books": Discussion critiques the practice of gendering books, with Brown pushing back:

  • "I like Twilight...I guess I'll always just read whatever comes across my desk. I think there are so many gatekeepers and trying to say, this is a book for you, or this is not a book for you... I think people are reading. It’s a great thing." [04:47]

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Rapid-Fire Questions: Brown’s Bookish Preferences

Timestamps: [06:45]-[17:41]

• Star Wars or Dune?
  "Dune. Star Wars was written very much taking Dune in mind... I'm gonna go with OG Dune." [07:06]

• Game of Thrones or Lord of the Rings?
  "Lord of the Rings is myth, you know." [10:17] Brown shares memories of listening to Hobbit audiobooks with his dad.

• Favorite Red Rising Characters:

  • Mustang or Victra? "Victor. I actually have a crush on Victor, which is kind of weird because I made her up." [11:12]
  • Ragnar or Sephi? "Ragnar." [11:56]
  • Sevro or Cassius? "Sevro. Cassius is a very special character...but Sevro is that unruly child within who rejects the world before it can reject him." [12:04]

• Physical books or audiobooks?
  "Physical." [14:04]

• Sci-fi or fantasy?
  "Sci-fi fantasy. That's what Red Rising is. It's what Dune is, you know?" [14:10-14:17]

  • Offers nuanced thoughts on blending genres and why fantasy myth resonates most with him.

• Animated or live-action adaptation?
  Prefers live-action, explaining strategic and emotional reasons, but notes both forms could coexist if the franchise succeeds:

  • "If Denis Villeneuve can't satisfy everyone, no one can..." [16:08]

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Writing Process, Outlining & Dealing with Pressure

Timestamps: [18:06]-[29:36]

• Favorite Book in His Series:
  Currently, Dark Age is his favorite for craft and experimentation:

  • "It was a book engineered to piss people off." [18:38]
  • Ranks: Dark Age, Golden Sun, Lightbringer, Red Rising, Iron Gold (but says this order changes with his mood).

• Hardest Book to Write:
  "The one I'm currently writing." [21:59]
  Notes the difficulty grows as the world and expectations expand.

• Outlining Approach:
  Often outlines, but usually discards outlines and lets story and character instincts take over:

  • "When I feel that insincerity in a story, it's difficult to cling onto that outline..." [25:26]
  • Prefers writing by emotion and revisiting/rewriting based on feeling, not strict plotting.

• Handling Writer’s Block:
  Uses a mix of time away, hard work, and creative exercises like word webs (e.g., write a word, build associations) to generate inspiration:

  • "It's about relaxing and not taking it too seriously. If you take it too seriously, you'll never get words out." [28:48]

• Pressure from Fans:
  Brown appreciates loyal, eager readers but insists on taking the time needed:

  • "There's this expression that words are like bullets out of a gun. Once shot, you can't take them back." [30:27]
  • "There's no one that wants Red God out more than me. Right?" [31:32]

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Red God: The Hat, Death, and Emotional Resonance

Timestamps: [32:47]-[36:36]

• The "Death Hat":
  Explains his tradition of randomly selecting characters to die from a literal hat (named 'Deus Ex Machina'). He confirms use of the hat for Red God:

  • "What the hat dictates, the hat gets... it’s my sorting hat, if you will." [34:33]
  • "Yes, I have pulled out of Deus Ex Machina for Red God." [35:18]

• Describe Red God With a Song:
  "Nine Inch Nails’ Hurt. Or Johnny Cash's Hurt, whichever." [36:50]
  —instantly raising host anxieties.

• On Making Readers Cry:
  While not his intention to manipulate, Brown feels validated when his writing emotionally connects as intended:

  • "It affected me...it’s a lot of validation realizing that it affected people the same way." [37:24]
  • He recounts the pain of writing particularly harrowing scenes, like Hangar 17B, and notes the importance of respecting a character's arc, even if it hurts readers (and himself).

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Character Safety, Death, and Consequence

Timestamps: [39:28]-[47:43]

• No Character is Safe:
  Brown admits certain deaths are harder (“the worthy guy was a hard one” [40:00]), likening the emotional ripples of character death to real-life loss:

  • "You miss writing them...they’ll never inhabit scenes again, create that unbalance." [40:06]

• Consequences in Storytelling:
  Critiques stories (like Marvel) for lacking real consequence:

  • "It’s stories that lack consequence in violence or consequence in decisions that are some of the hard for me to invest in..." [44:02]
  • Praises Harry Potter for its mature exploration of loss.

• Reflections on Grief & Character Development:
  Death breeds depth:

  • "I think it really progresses a book or a story when there is a death, even though we hate it. We hate it, but we love it at the same time." [46:35]
  • Strong emotional moments enhance the value of early scenes when those characters were still alive.

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The Art of Callbacks, POVs, and Managing Complexity

Timestamps: [47:43]-[54:12]

• Maintaining Continuity:
  Brown doesn’t keep a master document—he relies on emotion to track and tie arcs, sometimes referencing back for consistency:

  • "It's really just a feeling in my gut, and I wish I was better at taking notes...that's my ADD, like, or ADHD, technically, and unfortunately, that shows up in my process." [51:48]

• On Sevro:
  Surprised by Sevro's popularity, Brown reflects:

  • "Sevro is the middle finger...the conscientious objector...the punk that...readers feel lies within them...he says things that you wish you could say..." [52:23]

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Adaptations & Fan Casting

Timestamps: [54:12]-[73:38]

• Fan Casting:

  • Names Paul Mescal (normal People) as an ideal young Darrow, Oliver Reed as Lorn if time travel allowed, and is open to lesser-known actors for authenticity.
  • "I would love to just see like, actors, actresses that have really nothing behind them...so they can really just like commit to the Red Rising." [71:08]
  • Discusses the importance of energy over physical resemblance, especially in a post-racial world.

• Potential Issues with Adaptation:
  Jokes about the possibility of disliking the actor cast as Darrow and loving the one as the Jackal:

  • "What if the actor we get to play Darrow, what if he's just an asshole? And I'm like, and I hate this guy. And I'm, like, alienated from my own creation..." [74:00]

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Current Passions: Life Beyond Writing

Timestamps: [74:56]-[77:19]

• Gardening:
  Brown’s current obsession is shaping his trees with a prized Japanese nata blade.

  • "I've just been getting all sorts of...hacking at my trees. And it's really fun." [75:22]

• TV:
  Recommends Alien Earth for its thoughtful transhumanist themes.

• Reading Habits:
  Morning reads: Seneca's Letters to a Stoic—"It's really fun to get in the head of someone who's, you know, 2,000 years gone..." [77:22] Current fiction: Between Two Fires by Christopher Buehlman (a medieval horror novel).

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Recommended Reads for a Red Rising Slump

Timestamps: [79:05]-[79:53]

• Joe Abercrombie's The Blade Itself**
• Dan Simmons’ Hyperion**
• Classics: Lord of the Flies, The Count of Monte Cristo—the latter shaped Red Rising deeply:
  • "Monte Cristo is just the best book ever...it’s so good." [79:53]

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Favorite Lines and Fan Moments

Timestamps: [62:05]-[65:15]

• Most Surprised by Fandom Love:
  "'Shit escalates.' I was surprised that readers connected to that so much." [62:23]
• Knew It Was Good:
  Victra’s Lightbringer monologue about motherhood and vengeance:
  • "When Victra said the line...must have been a man who wrote the line that hell hath no fury like a woman scorned..." [63:05]
• Chills-Worthy Dialogue:
  Hosts praise the cinematic energy and emotional punch of Brown’s dialogue:
  • "Your writing is just, it’s meant for the screens. It really is." [65:15]

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Closing Reflections & Humor

Timestamps: [73:47]-end

• Fun & Self-Aware:
  Brown jokes about having a professional relationship with a future Victra actor and the possible emotional fallout of adaptation casting.

• Honest About Process:
  The conversation remains open and vulnerable, with Brown unafraid to share the messiness, worries, and passion underpinning his work.

• Invitation for a Future Reunion:
  "When I get it locked in, we'll have to do another one of these." [82:40]

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Notable Quotes

• On BookTok & Reading:

  • "I can be a Luddite all I want...but we live in the 21st century, so it seemed right to be on BookTok, lest I be a relic of the past." [00:55]
  • "Books are still really grassroots, right? They find a way." [05:26]

• On Writing & Fan Pressure:

  • "There's no one that wants Red God out more than me. Right?" [31:32]
  • "Words are like bullets out of a gun. Once shot, you can't take them back." [30:27]

• On Killing Characters:

  • "What the hat dictates, the hat gets. It's my sorting hat, if you will." [34:33]

• On Consequence in Story:

  • "It’s stories that lack consequence in violence or consequence in decisions that are some of the hard for me to invest in." [44:02]

• On Writing Dialogue:

  • "I too have a problem sometimes with the way characters talk in books that they’re just so wordy, you know...in movies how they'll leave a lot up to the actor or the directing..." [65:15]

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Episode Highlights

• Pierce Brown is candid, self-deprecating, and funny, demystifying the writing process and the pressures he faces.
• The hosts foster a warm, conversational book club mood—no question is too silly or personal.
• From “the Death Hat” to distinguishing Red God with “Hurt,” the episode is full of inside jokes, gentle fandom ribbing, and meta-commentary on authorship, fandom, and story stakes.
• Pierce’s advice for patient fandom and his passionate defense of genre inclusivity ("boy books/girl books" are marketing myths) stand out.
• There's a palpable excitement among the hosts and guest for adaptation potential—and the chaos and nerves that come with it.

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A must-listen for Red Rising fans, aspiring fantasy/sci-fi writers, and anyone curious about the backstage reality of their favorite stories. Whether you’re new to the series or a longtime Howler, this episode’s blend of industry insight, fandom fun, and Pierce Brown’s trademark wit makes for a standout conversation.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to. I'll read what she's reading. I'm Reggie.

[C]

I'm Kennedy.

[A]

And I'm Mikayla.

[B]

And today we have the man, the myth, the legend, and the man responsible for all of our therapy bills. And also the first man on the podcast, Pierce Brown.

[D]

What? What? I'm the first man on the page. I appreciate the honor, ladies. Thank you.

[C]

Oh, good.

[B]

I know all the ladies are going to be excited.

[C]

It's an honor to have you.

[D]

We're honored in your space. I appreciate it. That's a lot of fun.

[A]

It's the end. Yeah. We're excited.

[C]

We had.

[A]

We had a question. We just want to start off with a bang. You finally decided to join Book Talk. Welcome. How. How has that been? How's the experience been so far? What's up?

[D]

Chaotic. Chaotic. Yeah. Fortunately. Fortunately, I have an interpreter who's helped me understand Booktok quite a bit. But Brandon. Brandon summoned me, so I had to appear. And I realized there was a lot of readers on there that I hadn't connected with before, so it seemed to make a lot of sense. And I can be a Luddite all I want and pretend like my existence is analog, but we live in the 21st century, so it seemed right to be on Booktok, lest I be a relic of the past. So it's been interesting, though. I. I try to stay off it for the most part because how did I say? The last thing I need is another dopamine addiction. And that thing is just like. It's like an IV of dopamine. And so, yeah, I. I get on on Thursdays to comment, and then I get off. And I get on on Thursdays to comment. I get off.

[C]

Oh, so what you're saying is everybody needs to tag you on Thursdays?

[D]

Got it.

[C]

You heard it here first Thursdays.

[D]

Anything else? Yeah, I have an hour to do it. I have to stay disciplined that. Otherwise, you know, I got a TikTok like, four years ago, maybe, and the algorithm figured me out so darn fast that I was like, it's scary. I know. And the last thing I need is another. Well, one, it made me feel not that special that it could. And then two, I realized that I already had enough distractions, so.

[A]

Mm.

[D]

Yeah, but it's fun to be on there. It's fun to get to chat with some of the book. Book talkers. Like, I did an interview with Smitty, which was a lot of fun, and I think he was like the. The first. First person I followed on there. So that's fun.

[A]

Oh, cool.

[D]

Instagram gets so chaotic as well. But, you know, I have like 15 following 15 people on tick Tock, so it feels very civilized. A new beginning.

[C]

Well, and your books have taken Book Talk by storm.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Fortunate in that. Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. I think it's a lot of. Because of podcasts like yours or book talkers like you guys. Who found it. I'm not sure when you found it. Was it recent or has.

[B]

Oh, man, it's been.

[C]

I. I read Lightbringer last Christmas, so you ruined my Christmas season, unfortunately. But yeah, I picked it up in last year and then I got these two to read it. I said, you have to read this. You know the term, like boy books? Have you heard about that on Booktok?

[D]

Yeah, I've heard that. Only recently, though.

[C]

Yeah. You know, I feel like you kind of get intimidated, but yours is such a good gateway drug into that whole quote, boy book area. And so, yeah, got these two to.

[A]

Read it and I don't know, I think I read it. I started Red Rising October last year, I think.

[B]

Yeah, because you were reading.

[C]

Yeah, you did. October because you.

[D]

You.

[C]

I was Mustang for Halloween and you dropped it. You told me that you were. You had started it. Yeah, that's right.

[D]

Mustang for Halloween. Did you go institute Mustang or post Institute?

[C]

Institute.

[B]

Yeah, it was pretty sweet.

[A]

It was really cool.

[C]

No, I wish.

[D]

Okay. So what do you all think?

[C]

Yeah, we didn't have that kind of budget.

[D]

No, not. Maybe next time. So what do y' all think about the term of boy books? Like, do you guys feel like that's an apt term?

[C]

Not necessarily. I feel like it makes things way more intimidating than it needs to be.

[A]

Yeah. I feel like there's this Persona around it that it's like a little bit more higher fantasy. And I think people do get intimidated by it, but I think people miss out on, you know, the subtle romance stories and the subtle rip your heart out that people think you're not going to get with the higher fantasy. But I don't know. I think it's been really great. I think we've all kind of started to dip our toes in it, especially like Brandon Sanderson and Joe Abercrombie.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

The complexity is just so much better. Your brain has to work a little bit more, which I appreciate.

[D]

Well, that's interesting. Yeah. I don't know if I like boy books, girl books. I don't know, because how they qualify, because I, like, I found Twilight. I don't know, like 15 years ago and was like, holy. This is, this is. This was like cracked in my brain. I didn't love the sequels quite as much, but Twilight had some dark magic about it that lured me in. So I guess I'll always just read whatever comes across my desk. I think there's so many gatekeepers and trying to say, this is a book for you, or this is not a book for you, or this says higher fantasy or lower fantasy. And I don't know why people need to create those barriers of entry. I think people are reading. It's a great thing.

[C]

Doesn't matter what you read. Yeah, yeah.

[D]

And if you can. If you can come over to the boy book side, whatnot, you know, and you have someone, you know, introducing it to you and saying, I know how you think and you'll love this and that's great. I mean, that's honestly how I've always found books is through people that I respect recommending something, you know, and I think that's the fun thing about books because you can have these huge, you know, marketing campaigns for movies and such, but books are still really grassroots, right? They find a way. Look at my book. It's 11 years old somehow, and it's still finding new readers. And I find that very, very fun thing about the book world.

[C]

Well, it's so cool about the rise of booktok as well, because I've heard about so many books that I never would have heard of if it wasn't for these creator. Creators give these books shout outs and you do trust them because you've found that you like other books that they've read. So it's just. It's a chain reaction.

[D]

Yeah, it's a chain reaction. That's what I think has been the most fun to see in Red Rising. Catch on Booktok is seeing that chain reaction because I've always had like a pretty 50, 50 split of female and male readers. At least my publisher thinks I have. But so it's funny for like book talks find it and for new people to find and think it's a boy book. And I guess it is, you know, in some respects, but very happy y' all found it. So thanks for having me on.

[C]

We're happy to have you.

[B]

Yeah, we're so grateful.

[C]

It's kind of crazy. And this will kind of lead into our rapid fire section. So I have. I had never seen Star wars in my entire life. And then I read Red Rising and I said, oh, wait, maybe I do actually like sci fi. So then me and my husband started to watch Star wars together. So first, rapid fire question. Star wars or Dune?

[D]

Dune. Okay, Star Wars. I love Star wars, don't get me wrong. But Star wars was written very much taking Dune in mind. Dune came out, what, 62, 63. Star wars was written less than 10 years later. You know, it came out in 77, but it was written with the Jedi were initially called the Jedi. Bindu, which sounds very similar to the Bene Gesserit, is very much like Dune. The Force is very much like the voice. So I'm gonna go with OG Dune.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Do you enjoy the movies?

[D]

I do, yeah.

[A]

You like the movies?

[D]

Which ones? Dune or Star Wars?

[A]

Dune. Sorry. Dune.

[D]

Oh, yeah, I love them. I mean, heck, I grew up on, you know, that really cheesy dune from the 1980s, I believe, the David lynch once. And I even found a lot to love there because I was like Kyle McLaughlin from Twin Peaks. And so that was always fun for me. Then Sci Fi had this Sci Fi Channel had this amazing 2001, maybe 2002 Dune miniseries, which my sister and I just loved. And this is always something my sister and I like. We're very different people, but we always had joint obsession over Harry Potter or Dune or these big sci fi fantasy worlds. So we watched the heck out of that. And then Denis Villeneuve doing it. Yeah, I love those. I mean, I. That's like ripped out of. It's ripped out of my mind's eye. It's like. It's like exactly how I wish it had always been done. Kind of, you know, operatic scope and the feeling of like this alienated feeling because it's so kind of grim and bleak and nihilistic, yet there's such human components to it. I love it.

[A]

Yeah, they're really so good.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

My husband did fall asleep in it, but don't hold that against him. I liked it. He did fall asleep, unfortunately.

[A]

But I feel like we all have to confess, I don't think any of us have read them. No, no. But we have watched it.

[D]

Yeah. They're tougher reading. They're not quite. They're much more idea books than they are ripping narrative yarns, particularly as the books go on. The first book is really a planetary ecology book. And if you're going in there expecting an adventure novel, you'll be kind of disappointed because much of the action and much of the violence isn't shown. And I think that reflects Frank Herbert's experience with war. He was much more interested in the political science side of things and exploring, you know, the danger of messianic figures, which, you know, I'm not going to tell you more about when it comes out. But he's much more interested in political science side of things and the science side of things, and that definitely reflected in the books.

[B]

Very cool.

[A]

They're just really. They're really thick books.

[C]

Yeah, they're a little intimidating for a little time.

[D]

Yeah, I had, I, I get intimidated by them as they go on. Like, I, I've read a little bit past the fourth one. I, I read, I think, to the fifth one and then I, then I had to tap out too, so. And they're some of my favorite books, so I definitely empathize.

[C]

Okay. Game of Thrones or Lord of the Rings?

[D]

Lord of the Rings.

[A]

I think that's the only correct answer.

[D]

I love Game of Thrones, but Lord of the Rings is myth, you know.

[A]

I love Lord of the Rings.

[C]

I've only. I've only seen the Hobbit movies. I've only seen the Hobbit. I know.

[D]

Oh, my gosh.

[C]

I know.

[B]

Lots of homework.

[D]

They have such audiobooks. My dad and I, we do a lot of cross country trips. When I was a kid, we have this old hobbit cassettes, and I used to go to sleep to them. They were just my childhood companion listening to the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings on cassette. And I actually found. I found they were in this, like, delivered in this, like, box with said that has this burned imprint of the Hobbit on it. And I actually found that the other day and sent it to my dad and he said, oh, my God. So it's like, yeah, it's. I have to go. I have to go. Lord of the Rings.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

That's so sweet.

[B]

All right. Mustang or Victra.

[D]

Victor.

[C]

I thought you were gonna say that.

[D]

Yeah, I love Mustang, but I actually have a crush on Victor, which is kind of weird because I made her up. So, like, what does that say?

[C]

That's not weird.

[B]

It's fine about the power weird.

[D]

But Victor's so cool. You know, Mustang, she's so cool. But Victor's so unapologetic that sometimes a character, in order to be a good person, has to be an uninteresting character. And I think Virginia toes that line much more so than Victor, who's all id. She's just this walking, talking kid who does so many things that I wish I could do. So definitely. Definitely Victor.

[A]

That's a good answer.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

All right. Ragnar or Sephi?

[D]

Ragnar.

[B]

Good answer.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

Severo or Cassius?

[D]

Oh, Severo. Severo. Cassius is a very special character to me, but he also annoys the heck out of me. Severo. Is that how to say it? That unruly child within who is at war with the world and rejects the world before it can reject him. And I very much, very much felt that at certain points in my life. Whereas Cassius is more so. You know, Cassius has all the. The hallmarks of what the world approves of, and his journey is certainly a worthy journey and certainly interesting to me. But Cassius represents a lot of things and a lot of values in the world that I don't appreciate. Whereas Severo and that Councilman underdog is someone I'll always choose their side.

[C]

I think most of the fandom would agree with.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Sure is pretty, though. Sure is pretty.

[A]

Sure is. Yeah. Okay, people getting.

[D]

That was an interesting science. Yum, yum, yum.

[B]

We love Cassios.

[A]

What can we say we do? We love the good fan art.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Bringing the characters to life, it's. It's great.

[D]

He's the jaw that sets the bar.

[A]

People getting a tattoo in honor of your books or naming their kids after your characters.

[D]

I'm gonna say naming the kids, naming the kids tattoos. Believe it or not, tattoos are easier to get rid of.

[C]

Oh, yeah, Just a little.

[A]

So you want the more permanent thing?

[D]

Yeah, I want the permanent thing. I want the permanent thing.

[C]

Okay.

[D]

Well, I will say sometimes they name a character before the character has that Daenerys Targaryen moment. That can be a little interesting.

[B]

Yeah, I bet. Physical reading or audiobooks?

[D]

Physical.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

Sci fi or fantasy?

[D]

Sci fi. Fantasy.

[B]

Okay, I'll take that.

[D]

That's what Red Rising is. It's what Dune is, you know?

[A]

That's true.

[D]

Yeah. And if it really got down to it, if we're talking classic sci fi or classic fantasy. Classic fantasy. I do love classic science fiction. My books veer pretty far away from classic science fiction. Unless you're talking like, you know, John Carter of Mars type, but the Robert Heinlein, Asimov stuff that I grew up on, I really, really love it. But not this. It's not that romance and fantasy that I've had since I was a kid did. Yeah. Fantasy has always been the myth that I appreciate the most.

[C]

Okay. Animated or liveaction adaptation?

[D]

Live action.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Say the same.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah. I don't think we've all been like, go ahead.

[A]

Sorry. We just all have been debating on whether we would want to see Red Rising in a cartoon animated adaptation or a Live action. Besides your answer. We know your answer, but we've been arguing about what we would prefer to see.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And what was the consensus?

[C]

I originally said, like, arcane style animation because I was obsessed with arcane.

[D]

That was quite good. Yeah.

[C]

But then I watched Star wars and I said, you know what? I think I'm gonna go with live action.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And especially with the budget, you could do like, very epic.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

I also just really.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I just want to see the characters come to life. I don't know with like an actual person, but I know that's really hard because you have such an idea in your brain, especially probably you, about what the characters look like they're build, especially with the different colors. So I bet that can be tricky.

[D]

It can be tricky. And no matter how you do it, you know, if you did it live action, people are gonna say, that's not the actor I had in mind. If you do it animation and say, that's not the art style that lends itself best to the Red Rising world. It's a wonder of books is we each are the directors in our own mind, you know, and so it's always gonna be different than what you suppose. I think that Dune is a great example. Right. Yeah. Several different iterations of Dune. A lot of different video games of Dune. Even then Denis Villeneuve's iteration of Dune, which I think will. Will be most people's iteration now. But it. There was even sections of the fan base of Dune that were saying that, complaining about Denis Villeneuve's take. And I'm like, if Denis Villeneuve can't satisfy everyone, no one can, because I think he's a master. So, you know, there's always going to be that different interpretation. I do think that neither a live action nor a animation precludes you from having the other, so long as they're successful. I do think that a live action adaptation, if it is successful, then leads to an animated adaptation more easily than an animated adaptation leads to a live action. So strategically, it doesn't make much sense to go. If there's the option of having a live action. Doesn't make much sense to go with the animated first, because then it becomes a rights issue. And from a business standpoint, just how these things work. It's better to do it the other way. That said, really hard to make a good movie, huh? So.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah. So like the whole thing is, yeah. Get someone to even say they'll make the movie, put the money behind it. Well, then you got to make it good. So That's a whole nother bag of tricks.

[B]

We have all our, our. We've got a lot of faith.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

So we do appreciate it. I appreciate it. I'll need it.

[B]

All right. I don't know if you will be able to answer this question, but we have to ask, can you rank your books?

[D]

Oh, wow. In terms of how much I like them, I think that very difficult. You know, you asked me this, next week it'd be different. You asked me in a month it'll be different. But currently Dark Age is my favorite. I think I experimented the most in it. I think I learned how to do multiple POVs better in it. I think that it shows the biggest jump in my writing quality. Also. It was a book engineered to piss people off.

[B]

Well done there.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, you know, I think Dark Age, Golden Sun, Lightbringer, Red Rising, Iron Gold for me maybe, but that'll change. Iron Gold, there's other times where it's like way higher up on the list where it's like number two. Because Iron Gold is much more of a spy thriller than it is a space opera. Dark Age is unequivocally a space war opera constructed to have elements of World War II as well as Vietnam in it, as well as, you know, many other military campaigns. Lightbringer, however, then often takes the top spot as well. If I'm in an optimistic mood because of, you know, Dark Age challenges you to see how, how, what depths you can sink to in the reading and the experience and what depths I'm willing to challenge the reader with. And then Lightbringer brings back so much of that nostalgia of the earlier books while also pulling you out of the dark hole that, you know, I shoved you in with a, with the steel toed boot and proves that, you know, endurance like that. The line that Virginia said to Darrow, endure, my love, endure, proves that there's hope at the end of the darkness and brings back a lot of the, how would I say, feelings I had in the earlier books. So I think that each one has, has its virtues and it really just will shift with my mood. Dark Age and Light Bring and Golden Sun. Golden sun are very special to me though, because I definitely took shots with them. Like the books like the Red Rising, for instance. It was very difficult to get published as you know, this about me. But it was my seventh book. I'd written six before then, couldn't get representation and so no one wanted to buy a, you know, 200,000 word book from like a first time writer. And no one wanted space operas weren't selling. And so Red Rising was created to get published. Was created because I'd faced so much rejection before. And I finally wrote the book that I wish existed, but at the same time, it wasn't done. With my head in the sand, I was looking at what was getting people publishing contracts, and lo and behold, that's the one that worked. Right. But then golden sun was me just being like, all right, now here's the space object that I've been just, like, lusting over. And so just throwing people head on into that space opera was a lot of fun. So it was very much. Both were kind of seismic shifts in my writing style, I think, and how I approached writing.

[C]

I think when I finished golden sun, that was the most surprise I have ever been reading a book. Yeah, the ending of that, it blew my mind. It was crazy.

[D]

That's so fun. I love hearing that, because my editor didn't even know what was gonna happen at the end of the Golden Sun. I. It actually ended kind of happily at first, and he asked me to take another shot, and it just said, basically, this ain't. This isn't very good. And so I was like, oh, I'll show you.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And that's how we got the ending. We got.

[C]

Yeah. That ending is incredible.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

I appreciate it.

[B]

So is there. Of your books, is there one that was the most difficult to write, always.

[D]

The one I'm currently writing?

[B]

Okay, that's a good answer.

[D]

Yeah. You know, each time I go in with a new plan, a new strategy, and end up somehow always fighting my own demons in the trenches with a knife and always being like, how did I get here? I had such order and organization, and yet, lo and behold, I'm in my neurotic self again, trying to figure out this monster I've created.

[C]

But, I mean, it works, obviously.

[D]

I just wish it worked with. With me getting more sleep and, like, faster sometimes. But, yeah, it works because I put something out that I don't love. So it'll eventually work, but sometimes getting to that point is quite a lot of frustration. But I'd always say the. I'd always say the book I'm currently writing easiest to write was, weirdly, golden sun, actually probably Red Rising. Red Rising is the easiest thing. Golden Sun. And as it got more complicated, add more characters and more. More readers, more expectations. It feels sometimes more like a managing a world as opposed to forging boldly into a world and exploring things for myself. That's the fun of it. Writing for me is, you Know, just seeing where the story takes me and seeing what ideas excite me. But there ends up being quite a lot of bills to settle when you're having a story as vast as this one's become. So I'd say that as they've gone on, each one is progressively harder than the last.

[C]

Now, I think in an interview you said you don't outline. Is that still the case? You don't necessarily outline?

[D]

Yeah, I tried outline, like. So I outlined. I outlined. I've outlined pretty much every book, you know, in Sometimes, like, my lightbringer outline was 28 pages, and then I ended up just, like, chucking it because I hated it, you know, So I, you know, I outlined for Red God, that I ended up chucking it because I hated it. So it's not like I go in with no plan. You know, I definitely have the idea of what I'm doing, and usually it adheres closely to that. But the problem I find with outlines is there it's a bit disingenuous, particularly when we're doing an immediate first person perspective. Immediate first person perspective. It feels as though there are. How to say that I am making a character do something often at a juncture in the story, and it feels decidedly unlike them. And I can't rationalize that sometimes. And so then I'll realize my outline is flawed because, yeah, I'm making them behave in a way that's inherently not them, just for the convenience of the story. So outlining sometimes becomes difficult when I feel that sort of insincerity. Insincerity. Insincerity, yeah. Yeah, I almost did insince. Insincerity. When I feel that insincensincense. Sincerity in a story, it's difficult to cling on to that. That outline. That said, I'd say that once I have a first draft that kind of looks like my outline, I can. Then. Then I become, like, actually an athlete. I can, like, see the pacing, I can see the opportunities. I can see seeds I put and make them come to germination later on in the story. And I really enjoy writing second and third drafts. First drafts are abysmal. For me, though, outlining was even less fun because I'm like, having to decide these things without being emotionally in the story. And it's.

[B]

Yeah, that would be challenging.

[D]

Very. Logic, like, is that right, brain? Is that right? Right. Logic's right, brain, Right?

[C]

Yes, I think so.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

We'll say it is. We'll say it is.

[C]

I think creative is left brain.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. The logic side of things. But I'm a very emotional writer, and so, like, it's difficult for me to believe in my own outlines often.

[A]

So what do you do when you find yourself in, like, a writer's block? Is there a way that you feel like you can get out of it, or is it always different? For every single book?

[D]

It's different. There are certain. Certain tricks I've learned, I suppose. You know, one of the best things you can do is leave it alone for a little bit and then come back to it and just work. The problem is, when you're in a writer's block, you'll trick yourself into thinking that you'll come up with the solution when you're not looking at it. And sometimes that is true, but often what really solves it is hard work and sitting there, it's, you know, kind of suffering through it because. And finding the moment of inspiration. Once you're forcing something, it's kind of like, you know, when you're. You can't decide between something on a. On a menu, when you're ordering dinner.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Story of my life.

[D]

And then all of a sudden you're like, oh, like, the pressure makes you have to decide or whatnot. And as soon as the waiter's leaving, you're like, no macaroni and cheese. Yeah, like that. You kind of just got to get on the page and start working on it. And then the pressure of it will. Will figure it out for you, because otherwise you'll have, you know, you'll just be indecisive. And sometimes you need to be decisive by just getting on the page and seeing look comes out. But some of the tricks I've learned, like, I do word association games sometimes. So I'll write down seven words called word webs. So I write down seven words. I usually start one word, and then I write seven words that I associate with that word. Say that I put down jar. And then I think, like, I'll put down lightning or lightning bugs or jam, and I'll do seven words off that word and seven words off that word, and all of a sudden, I'll have a huge web of words, each one of which is kind of logically linked to a tone and helps me just get the creative juices flowing by free association. And so it's just lighting up different parts of your brain. And I find that that's sometimes helpful for getting out of my own head and just, I don't know, Electric. Shocking my brain a little bit and getting inspired.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

So that can help sometimes.

[B]

Oh, very cold.

[A]

Yeah, I've seen that before.

[C]

I don't know why they did that in, like, middle school. Yeah.

[D]

Is that a thing?

[C]

Like an English class they have. You do.

[D]

I think it came. I don't know if he created it, but Ray Bradbury, I think, in his On Writing, talks about it.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

I think that's where I got it from. I'm not sure. I'm not sure exactly the genesis of it, but. But yeah, it's. And it's also a trick that they do for the military. Sometimes they teach you to, like, free association. Like, that you'll think of. What is it? Think of ABCs, go through them and then think of, like, an animal or an item, like alligator, you know, bat, and just keep going down. And what it does is makes your brain bounce around so much you're not staying on one thought. And so you're not just a hamster spinning a wheel. You're moving around and then your brain relaxes.

[C]

Okay. I do that sometimes when I can't fall asleep. It's like a random word association game that I play in my head and just whatever word comes to my brain and then I fall asleep. But I mean, but, I mean, yours is not to fall asleep. But. No, but.

[D]

But it's. It's to help make your brain relax. And that's kind of. Yeah, right. I'm trying to make my brain relax because otherwise, sometimes the difficulty is that your ego is engaged when you're writing. So you're trying to. Oh, I'm trying to seem smart or I need a twist to be here. Or I'm, you know, trying to seem like a good writer, so I'm throwing in a lot of adjectives or whatever. When you. You just gotta relax and see what's interesting. And. Yeah, so it's really about relaxing and not taking it too seriously. Because if you take it too seriously, you'll never get words out.

[B]

Nice.

[C]

Well, the good news is, if you get it out and you don't like it, you can always scrap it. Like you have done in the past.

[D]

Yeah. Yeah. And I have to remind myself that every day. Because if I have a bad riding day, it's always because I was taking it too seriously.

[C]

The good news is, is I feel like the fandom's patient. They know you're working hard.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

They.

[C]

No, we're patient. We're patient. We trust you.

[D]

I appreciate that. I appreciate that.

[B]

I hope we can appreciate. Yeah. I feel like people are always begging for authors to just quickly release these books because they're like, I need to know what happens next. But I can really appreciate you trying to keep. Help us practice our patience, because it just makes. Yeah, yeah. But it just. It shows in your books. Like, even though I'm foaming at the mouth for Red, God, I'm like, you've posted a few times. I've seen where you're like, I just want it to be perfect.

[A]

And.

[B]

And I feel like that's the most important thing as a reader that you should be appreciating from an author.

[D]

So, yeah, they often. There's this expression that words are like bullets out of a gun. Once shot, you can't take them back. I the same way, particularly since I've been working on this for such a long time that it's more than a decade of my life, and when I shoot this bullet out, it's gone, and I won't get to it again. And I want to make sure that it's the. You know, that I really love that bullet once it's gone. You know, if I'm wishing that I'd taken more time, I'm wishing that because I didn't want to get, you know, berated for being slow or something like that. If I felt any pressure and it listened to that pressure, then I know that in the long run, I'd be letting myself down, letting the story down, and letting the readers down in the long run. So I appreciate people when they're eager for the next installment, but I think if they put a little thought into it, they would realize that negative reinforcement is probably not the best way to go about it with retrospective. Yeah. Writers who are sensitive, you know, like, when have you ever done something better because someone is, like, telling you, do it or do it faster.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah, good point.

[D]

And the Navy SEALs have an expression. Slow, Fast is slow, and slow is fast. Or, no, slow is smooth, and smooth is fast. And so I think of that a lot. And, you know, hey, I know some of these guys like Rothfuss and George a little bit, but Roth was more, so. He'd love nothing more than have that book out. Trust me. Yeah. There's no one that wants Red got out more than me. Right.

[C]

I'm sure you want to get back to your life.

[D]

Yeah, I'd love to. I'd love to have a life. Yeah. Great. Yeah. Yeah. And honestly, it's like carrying around a monkey on your back. It's like, I. I literally became a writer because I didn't want to have, like, you Know, homework. I mean, like, homework is my least favorite thing. I was terrible in school. Now I feel like I have this giant assignment all the time, and I'm just like, oh, my goodness. But my graders. But my graders. My graders aren't. Aren't just gonna put it on a report card. My graders are gonna talk about it online. So this has to be good, you know?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Pressure.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Now we don't ask.

[D]

Well, that's why I have Thursdays.

[C]

That's why you have Thursdays.

[D]

That's why I have Thursdays.

[C]

One hour. One hour. He has one hour to himself on Thursdays.

[A]

Everybody.

[B]

Give the man a break.

[D]

Putting that stress down.

[C]

Now, we don't want to ask you too many questions about Red God, but I feel like our listeners would be mad if we don't. So our first question is for people who may not be super familiar with the Red Rising lore. Can you tell us about the hat that you pulled out of? And can you also tell us if you pulled out of it for Red God?

[D]

Okay, so there's been various points in the story. My story focuses a lot on warfare, and I believe that my story is fundamentally anti war. And one of the bad things about war is it's capricious. It's random. War or death is just a giant with scissors cutting at random. You can have the best person die by stray bullet. Right. Same time you want the story to be rewarding and not everything for shock value. But in order to create that sense of randomness, I reached in the first book, a junction where I had to have a character die. So I put every character but one character and then drew out the name at random. And I looked at the name, and I realized that, like, I didn't have to kill this person. But then I didn't have readers. I didn't know people would love this character. I was just like, well, you know, no one's going to read this anyway. Might as well stick to my. My agreement with myself. And I killed that character. Lo and behold, it becomes everyone's favorite character. But. But to keep that tradition, I've done it several other times during the story, and it has been inconvenient at times because sometimes that character. There's plans with that character. Yet what the hat dictates, the hat gets. It's my sorting hat, if you will.

[C]

Sorting hat of death.

[D]

Yeah, the sorting hat of death. And ironically, it was a hat that had on it. Deus ex machina means God out of machine. God out of machine is an expression that comes from Ancient Greek stagecraft. Back in the day, a lot of the Greek plays end with a God coming in and so solving things or resolving things at the end or metting out justice. And it would be usually an actor being lowered down by a pulley system. So God out of machine. And nowadays it's used as a, you know, to clarify or to typify a writing trope where something is just solved miraculously. So, ironically, that was the hat Deus Ex Machina. And yes, I have pulled out of Deus Ex Machina for Red God. So awesome.

[C]

Okay, great.

[D]

So there is a fantastic. Well, right now I'm trying to figure out how much that screws up my story, so we'll have to see. Yeah, yeah, that makes me nervous. This is a problem, because that outline I talked about definitely did not factor in. Factor in.

[C]

Yeah, but that's just it.

[D]

That's why I like. I like wrestling with these books for a while because, like, in Lightbringer, you know, I ended up throwing out 400 pages and restarting the book because I was like, this doesn't feel right. And, you know, I had a severo POV for much of that. Much of that. 400 pages. Not all of it, but much of it. And I realized that we can't be inside Severo's head. Severo is an enigma, and if we're doing first person present tense from Sevro, it ruins a bit of that enigma. And I thought that that actually was a disservice to the character and the overall story. So I had to start over. And I. That's why I'm also hesitant to give, you know, clarification sometimes on when Red God will be done, because it'll be done when I'm happy with it. And I might, you know, I might find out, like, this sucks. These 200 pages suck. And I like. And I just can't fix them. And I believe that the Sunk Cost Fallacy. Just because I put a lot of work into it doesn't mean that it should stay around. So, you know, we'll see. But yes, the how to Death was used.

[B]

All right, great.

[C]

Great. Keep me up at night. Okay, if you had to describe Red God as it is right now using one song, what would it be?

[D]

Nine Inch Nails hurt. Oh, okay. Or Giant Cash is hurt. Whichever.

[C]

You're just like, hey, I'm scared. I was already scared, and now I'm more scared.

[A]

I'm, like, so nervous.

[D]

Your anxiety only encourages me to write more.

[C]

I mean, do you. I mean, is it Fun. Like, do you love seeing. I feel like as an author, it would be like, not. I don't want to say fun, but like, when you see people post on social media that they're sobbing to your books, is that like a compliment to you? You know what I mean?

[D]

Yeah. I mean, it can't ever be the intention.

[C]

It's.

[D]

If it's the intention, then I feel like readers are canny enough to realize when I'm manipulating them. And so I don't do it to manipulate, but it is a sign of something that when it affected me that I wrote, I wrote it. It's a. A lot of validation realizing that it affected people the same way, because you don't often know. You can't know what will land and what won't land. But, you know, Hangar 17B, for instance, was like, atrocious for me to write. I was just like, oh, like a lodestone in my chest the entire time. And the entire time I was thinking, like, oh, like, especially upon rewriting and really spiffing up the scenes that came before, I was like, it doesn't have to be like this. I can avoid this fate. But at the same time, I knew that my desire to do that, that that voice in my head was telling me that it was a scene that worked. Right. And it's kind of like when you're re watching a movie and you're like, maybe it'll end differently this time. Yeah, maybe. You know, maybe serious black woman make it.

[C]

Wait, what? I'm just kidding.

[D]

I re.

[A]

I re in the middle of reading right now.

[C]

Yeah, I'm in the middle of rewatching and reading them, and I kind of forgot things that happened. But, yeah, she's past it. Yeah, I'm past that.

[D]

You know, I think. I think spoiler spoiler alerts have an expiration date.

[C]

Oh, absolutely.

[A]

Yes, they do.

[C]

I have to tell you that I read Hangar 17 being a public sauna, so that was really fun for me.

[D]

Kudos to you being able to.

[C]

Well, I could quite. I got to about middle and I said, okay, I think I know where this is going. I need to close this book and finish it at home in the privacy of my own home. So. But I mean, you've had me crying in a lot of public places like airplanes, the gym, parks, coffee shops.

[D]

I've seen my books in public before, and it's always a nice little thing for my ego, but if I see my book in public and someone's sobbing, I will just be so happy.

[C]

Go to an airplane I'm sure you'll.

[B]

Show up and read Red Gone on your front porch.

[D]

Perfect.

[B]

That's what it takes.

[C]

Just kidding.

[D]

Perfect.

[B]

So one thing I really appreciate about your books is that you. You make it as if no character is safe. And I really like that. Is there. I mean, I like it, but I hate it at the same time. Is there a character? You don't have to say who, but is there a character that was the hardest to let go?

[D]

Yeah, Well, I mean, I don't want to ruin things for your readers, so I'll say a certain someone who is found worthy in the end.

[C]

Okay, that one was really hard. Oh, stop, stop. Okay. Yeah.

[A]

Ow.

[D]

Because often. So you'll just find you just miss them in the scenes. You just. You miss writing them. I don't know if you guys have ever dealt with death in your personal life, but the hardest thing I found with death is sitting in their room afterwards and seeing the clothes they'll never wear or the items that no longer have meaning because they'll never wield them. You know, that's very hard. I find that most with the characters I miss, it's that they'll never inhabit their spacecraft again or they'll never inhabit their clothing again, and they'll never inhabit scenes again and create that unbalance. Because with the Killing, you look at why, like, Marvel doesn't kill off characters, really. They just, you know, bring them back. They don't kill them off, like, because it's such a careful balance. So, like, in, like, imagine Guardians of the Galaxy, you take out Rak the Raccoon. How. How unbalanced does their crew feel now? And so dealing with that as it goes on is very interesting because. Because I'll realize I've taken out a character that gave perfect balance to a crew and then have to deal with that lack of. That lack of balance. But that also lends itself well to the storytelling because the characters are also having to deal with that lack of balance. Right. And it affects. It affects everything. So I'd say the worthy guy was a hard one.

[A]

Yeah, you're gonna make a stack of mad now.

[B]

Speaking of crying, where's the tissues? So I would like to know, what is it like when you're writing these scenes that are so hard and you know that are going to rip your readers apart? What is. Give us a visual. What are you doing when you're sitting down to write?

[C]

What does it look like? Are they.

[A]

Oh, no. Are you laughing? You're like, my readers are gonna cry.

[D]

Like a cup of Your tears just being like, yes, yes, 10 new bottles. I'd say, I'd say a lot of times it's me trying it out and. Because I'm not sure if it'll work. And then those pivotal scenes become sometimes the easiest to write because you're like, oh, my God, it's working. Oh, my God, it's working. So there's a certain mad Gl glee and the fact that it's working. She's like, you sit back and then you're like, what have I done? You know, so it's like, it's. You guys ever seen Breaking Bad?

[B]

Oh, yeah, I'm re watching it right now.

[D]

It's like, yeah, I just rewatched in the world. So good. But there's this point.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Walt realizes that he just likes it. That he just likes it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right? And so Walt, I look at him as like the cleverest cockroach. Like, you just can't leave the bone too long. Girl crazy. Create mischief, right? A lot of times he'll create the mischief because he can, and then sit back and just feel all the human emotions of, like, guilt and, and second guessing himself. But in the moment, he's just excited that he can do it. And sometimes that's the case because writing a book is so hard for me, that I'm just so excited that I can do it. And then you really sit back and you're like, oh, no, was that the right choice? You know, and then you fret. Yeah, like, have I pushed the readers too far? Would they rebel and say, I'm doing this just to piss them off? You know? Is this abuse at this point? I don't know.

[A]

I feel like your books have ruined Marvel for me. And I literally just put that together when you pointed out that they don't kill off characters. And I think when I watch a Marvel movie, I'm expecting someone to die and, like, create this big impact. And I think your books have ruined things where characters don't die. Because I feel like it's not as big of an impact if they just come back miraculously.

[D]

You know, you have to come back and then they, they have to be saved by their former crew. And you spend a whole movie, like, bringing them back from the dark side, you know, and then the next one starts up, everyone's plucky again. Yeah, I, I, I feel the same sense of severance from Marvel. I liked it a lot when I was younger and I still do. Like, certain, certain storylines, like Captain America ones are still great for me. And I've always loved the X Men to like a crazy degree. But I'd say that it's stories that lack consequence, consequence in violence or consequence in decisions that are some of the hard for me to invest in. Because the characters, then what's happening is they're just restarting it. And it feels a bit like Groundhog Day. Like, am I. Am I learning some, some of the greatest things that have stuck with me in literature and movies, but like, you know, storytelling are the, are the endings that make that ache, you know, the thing, the injustices that will never be corrected or righted. Right. And I, I think those stories inherently mean more to us. I think it's one of the great strengths of Harry Potter is how it was, you know, a book written to be accessible for children, yet it carried stakes of adulthood, real life. So it's kids thrust in. They're in this really cute school setting, this amazing wish fulfillment, but then they're having to face realities of life and adulthood and learn how to deal with grief. And, you know, if you're not doing the full spectrum of human emotions, it's difficult to believe in that world and invest in the same way. I think. Not to say there's not a place for Marvel films, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

But as I get older, that place shrinks quite a bit.

[A]

Yeah, well, I feel like as you get older, you happen to have this life where you tend to see more death. And I feel like you realize how much of like a ripple effect it can have on like characters or even just in your own life. And so I think you can almost relate more. And it's honestly great for a character development to see how a character's death is going to like ripple affect them, either in a negative way or in like a positive way, you know, dealing with like grief. And I just think it really progresses a book or like a story when there is a death, even though we hate it. We hate it, but we love it at the same time.

[D]

I think you're very right. I think it makes me treasure the moments I have with characters more. So if you look at Lightbringer, it really makes. And some of the people you lose in that book, it really makes you reflect on how special the moments were in the other books where they weren't at conflict with each other. And you know, when, when they're reviewing old Institute tapes at the end, it really makes you feel these characters are like, with you because you're like, yeah, I didn't know that was the summer of our lives. I Didn't know this. Golden days. Right. And I think that we often see that in our own lives. And then upon rereading, I think it makes those earlier moments more powerful as opposed to, you know, some stories where what happens later on diminishes the things that came before. I think that if the characters are able to reflect on the loss and then the importance of those earlier moments, it actually helps make those first books mean more, as opposed to, oh, that didn't matter, because it's going to end this way. It actually makes those moments in the light special and frozen in time.

[C]

Well, I think one of your strongest things about you as an author is I feel like you have the best, best callbacks and tiebacks to your previous books. I remember finishing Morning Star thinking that this was the most perfect trilogy to ever exist on planet Earth. And I was like, why? Why is there more? This was perfect all up. Oh, no. But then I read more and I was like, okay, this makes sense. And the ending of Lightbringer, I just felt like it was so perfectly ended with that callback. How do you. I guess my question is, how do you keep track of it all? How do you. How are you able to do that with multiple point of views across all of these books?

[D]

For me, and this is one of the difficulties, I think, because you're right to. You're right to focus on that. On that question. It's a good question. I don't do it logically, like why the outlines are tough. I do it from feeling. And so that's why. That's why sometimes, and these later books have taken longer, is because I have to, like, feel with the characters. And when I'm feeling it, I'll remember it. And of course, there's a lot of, you know, going back and looking at what was said and what was done. And to be honest, it's, you know, it's over a million 200,000 words that it gets in the final. But for that, I've written probably 10 million words, you know, and what ends up making there, Sometimes I'll have false memories of things that got excised from the book and didn't make it into the final draw draft. And that's actually the trickiest thing, but it really is feeling the characters and where they are on and they're in their evolution. And I think that that's. That's the kind of writer I am, much more so. And that's perhaps why it feels different, hopefully, from other books, because I. I don't know if that's I. I know there are other writers like that, but I feel like that is part of the integral difference is there's a certain. There's a certain linear evolution expected in book characters, often progression. Right. Just because they've evolved past their anger in one book doesn't mean they've solved the problem and are no longer going to relapse. What I found in real life is, like, if you've ever had an alcoholic in your life or an addict of any sort is the incredible amount of false summits where you think that they've beaten the beast, and then like, two years later, they're back at this, in this direction, and you're like, I thought we were past that. It's that sort of expectation we have sometimes thinking that. That everything should be linear. And I feel like books and movies and TV shows give us that progression sense. Right. But one of the things I like doing with the characters is making them relapse in certain ways. Sometimes from grief, sometimes from anger, sometimes from frustration or whatnot. And so there's. It's not like a logical plan that I have for those moments. It's a lot of times just feeling where they are in the story. And it's one of the reasons that I didn't like the Severo pov. It gave us too much insight into his why he does this thing. The concept with Sevro is all these insulting, horrific features about himself. Smelliness, his nastiness, his foul mouth. All these things are like defense mechanisms to prevent us from seeing what's inside. So then why can I. How can I show you what's inside? No, I can't show you what's inside. Sevro's narrative is about what he allows you to see from the outside. Right. And if I just all of a sudden show you in it, then that's six books of character progression where then I devalue the character. So it's about Severo's growth, is about how much he'll let other characters, and us as. As those characters, because they're reading through their perspective, see of him. So it's like. It's really just a feeling in my gut, and I wish I was better taking notes. I wish I could say that I have this, like, master document. I don't. And I think that's okay. Slow down the mind. Writing each book, I was like, you know, this time I'll be organized. And it never happens. It's my. I'm add, like. Or adhd, technically. And unfortunately, that shows up in My process.

[C]

It's so funny. I told these two when they first started your books. I was like, you need to have a note on your phone with every single character and like a description of them, who their political alliances are. Just keep track of everything because you're going to want to remember everything.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

You know, if they have brothers, they're coming into the story. And you're.

[C]

So kind of along the several lines. Are you surprised that your readers have like, latched onto him or like, why him? Are you surprised by that?

[D]

I was surprised initially, but then I suppose it makes sense. I think that Severo is. Severo is the middle finger. Severo is the conscientious objector. Severo is the punk that I think that particularly readers feel lies within them. And he says things that you wish you could say or encounters the, the social systems that you encounter and is like that. And it's very difficult sometimes. There's a lot of cost to saying that in real life. But Sevro is able to do it. And I think that we feel as though he's this special little unicorn because he, He, He's. He's in many ways personification of our own disagreement, of our own. Objection. Right. And so I think that that's why he's really found a place in the readership. I will say I didn't construct him that way. He just, I. He grew to be that and I grew to understand him more so. But it was never meant to be like that. He was meant to just be colorful. Right. But I think that he's, you know, he's. He's abdicating the values that the rest of us, like Cassius, that Cassius and the rest of modern, the rest of society holds dear. And he's like rejecting them because he doesn't fulfill any of the values. He doesn't meet any of the values that, that the world values, rather. So I think that in many ways we want to protect him. We feel a little bit of ourselves in him, perhaps, and think that when he's beaten from down, it feels like a defeat of the idea, because you can send like the idea itself. It feels like a personal defeat in a way that it doesn't with other characters, because Darrow and these other characters are larger than life and Severus is doing his darn best with a lot less natural gifts than anyone else has.

[B]

Well, there's so many characters that I love from your books. If you could pick one character from your books to spend a day with.

[D]

Who would it be Victor, but I'm not going to get into details.

[B]

All right.

[D]

Oh, my God.

[A]

That's fine.

[D]

Although, you know, sans that, I think it would be. I think it would be. Mickey'd be a hoot. Mickey would be a hoot.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

I'd love to see, like, just a little bit of the world through his eyes Or. Or quicksilver. He'd be that great fairy godmother I've always wanted.

[A]

How do you think, Sevro.

[D]

I mean, you. I'm sure you have your answers.

[C]

Hmm.

[A]

I know who I would avoid.

[C]

Who would you avoid?

[D]

The jackal.

[C]

Who would you avoid?

[A]

I say it.

[C]

I have. I think I know who you're gonna say.

[A]

I. I really struggled with this character until the very last few chapters. Darrow.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

I don't know why. I really had a bone to pick with Daryl.

[D]

That's fair. There's a lot. There's a lot of reasons not to meet Darrow. Run over you.

[A]

That's true. I'm a little scared of him. Maybe that's why. I don't know. Who do you guys pick?

[B]

I might say Victor.

[C]

I don't know why I'm feeling this. I mean, I would say they're probably Mustang or. I don't know why she came to. I don't know why, but Lyria.

[D]

Interesting.

[C]

Yeah. I don't know. I feel like she's kind of not.

[A]

Slept on, but a little bit. I. Yeah. I really kind of love her character a lot.

[C]

I mean, I would love to say Severo, but in reality, I would not want to spend time with Severa.

[D]

The several.

[A]

I might.

[D]

Tough. Several would be tough. Like, you'd have to be, like, a night out with several. Maybe.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

But, like, I'm not having several in my house.

[C]

No, no, no.

[D]

Not a house guest. Right. Stinky Ragnar Be.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Actually, I think you, like, just say some stuff and, like, hopefully let me climb him.

[B]

Yeah. Because he's, what, like, seven concert.

[D]

And, like, just have him hold you during the concert.

[A]

Get on his shoulders.

[B]

Just a big teddy bear. Yeah, I like that idea.

[D]

There's no threats in the world that can bother Ragnar, so you're, like, infinitely safe. Be great. And it's not starting anything.

[B]

That's a great one, too.

[D]

You know, like, Darrow would just go off on a crusade or something. He'd be like, I just wanted Starbucks, you know?

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

I think I would pick Victor, too.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

I feel like. I feel like Victor would have the most interesting, like. Like, how would I say it. Escapades. She'd just be like, let's go do this. Oh, I never thought about writing zebra before. She's like, I'll help you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I feel like I could learn a thing or two from her.

[C]

But also, while we're on the topic of Victra, there's a very specific scene that I can't really say exactly what happens, but hopefully you can kind of catch the vibe of which scene I'm talking about.

[A]

All right.

[C]

That will forever be ingrained in my memory.

[B]

Badass.

[D]

Yeah. I was just like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Right before something else happens that, like. Yeah, yeah. You know?

[D]

Yeah. I just. Pretty cool. She's pretty cool.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[A]

I can see why you have a crush on her.

[C]

I have a crush on her.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Her maternity armor is one of my favorite things I put in there because I just, you know, I grew up on so much of the fantasy art, having, like, you know, the woman with the cut off midriff sections and stuff. And I just love. Like, Victor'd have no time for that and, like, the idea that she wouldn't go to war because she's pregnant. Like, no. She'd have maternity armor built. She's a trillionaire.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

She's an aggressive, homicidal trillionaire who has three kids and a fourth on the way. She's going to war.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

Belly armor.

[A]

Yeah. Do you not feel afraid of how several would act? Oh, yeah. With you having a crush on Victor?

[D]

I do, I do. But fortunately, I think Victor can take several. She said I was off limits. Severo would adhere to that. That said, you know, when I was making my choice, I didn't. I didn't inherently think that. Now I'm a little worried. Yeah. I feel like Mustang would be good company, though. I feel like Mustang would be, like, the most civilized company.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

She would make me feel really dumb, though, myself.

[D]

Like, Victor. She wouldn't be worried about our feelings.

[C]

No, no, no.

[A]

But sometimes we kind of need that.

[D]

Yeah, sometimes. But must I, like, be, like, a great life coach?

[C]

If she was a normal human, she would be a life coach for sure.

[D]

She's always taking the. Actually. She's one of the few characters always takes the emotions of others into an actually, like, into effect, like, all right. Into her thought ahead in her decision making. Everyone else is pretty, you know, selfish to a degree.

[C]

Which I guess since we're talking about Mustang, I have to commend you because in a book that you wouldn't think is super romantic. I have read some of the most romantic lines in your books just from your characters. Thank you.

[D]

That's nice.

[C]

Yeah, it's. It's kind of crazy.

[A]

Yeah. Are you practicing to say that to other.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Is those lines like, what you pull out on a date?

[D]

Well, if I could pull. If I could pull it off on a date with a straight face, maybe I would.

[C]

But then they read your book later.

[A]

And they're like, oh, wait, this is recycled material.

[D]

You know, here's. Yeah, right, Exactly. I feel as though modern life makes us so skeptical of sincerity that books that are this big can be like, in terms of the ideas thrown around and the stakes. You can say things and mean them that you might mean in real life. But we're so jaded. You think about if anyone does something sincere on social media, you know, how many percent of the comments are going to be jaded and rip it apart. And I think that we've just conditioned ourselves to be. To lose the capital R romance, you know, and in a book like this, it's fun to. When you're dealing with, you know, the destruction of worlds and armies on the march, the characters are emboldened to be more sincere. And that's one of the things I like about the genre.

[C]

Yeah. I read so many times, and I'm like, oh, why can't my husband say that to me? But it's okay.

[D]

I think it's also because, like, if you look at it in guy culture right now online, I think that there's this big, like, how to say they're almost like mourning, not having a cause, not having a war to march off to. Now, granted, there's a lot of bad things that can come with that, but I think that modern life robs us of the same sort of binary purpose we used to have, and without a big conflict or a big cause, you know, you yearn for meaning. And so I think that a lot of the. How do I say, the men would do the things to prove that they have those feelings for you, but, you know, without the Vikings invading their, you know, your neighborhood, how can they prove it? You know?

[C]

Yeah, we're not in a space war.

[D]

Yeah. Your husband might not say that stuff to you, but he would definitely go to war for you. You know what I mean?

[C]

Yes, absolutely.

[D]

And that's the funny thing. We're just conditioned not to. Not to be. Not to put it into words in the same way, because it feels. It feels insincere.

[C]

We're on the topic of lines. Do you have A specific line that you have personally written that you knew was going to be good. And second part to that question, do you have. Is there a line that you're surprised that your readers have really loved?

[D]

Sure. Shit escalates. I was surprised that readers connected to that one so much. The one that I wrote that I knew was good. I'll just use Lightbringer as an example. When Victra said the line, it must have been a man who wrote the line that hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. To imagine scorn being the utmost misery a woman could suffer. What would I think? What would he think of a woman who's seen her husband sold off like chattel and her child. You know the rest. They come for our children, Virginia. Don't fear for me. Pity them. I wrote that and I was like.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

That'S why she's so cool.

[D]

I was like, pictures dropping bars. Yeah, that one. That one I. That one. I see.

[A]

But it's fine.

[D]

Yeah. But then some of the pithier ones, like a lot of sabros things like. Just like. Like what is it? Escalate some of his insults like. Like just because I'm pocket sized. Expel like milk and warm cookies. Like lines like that. I was like, people like that cool. You know, like the one I wasn't sure about in the last one was like Lyria and the ham. When several.

[B]

Oh, I was just gonna say that.

[D]

Caught her getting the ham. And I wasn't sure if that was. But I'm so glad it did. Like, you know, touch my hand or don't touch my. Don't touch my. Yeah, I'm not sure about.

[C]

They always land.

[A]

They always land.

[D]

I also like the really one when Darrow at the end of Morning Star is facing off with Cassius and he's about to. Right when he's been rescued and he says expect me. And then jumps off the. The. The. The building. And I just love that line. Expect me. Cuz I hadn't heard that's.

[B]

Yeah, that's a good one.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

I need to start using that.

[A]

Excited.

[D]

It's so menacing. He's got like two bodies and he's like expect me. And then like swan dives.

[C]

Just like the.

[D]

That dude means it. That dude means it. Yeah.

[C]

Imagine that in a TV show. Yeah.

[D]

Epic.

[A]

Yeah. I feel like you write lines that would translate well to a script.

[C]

Like full body chills.

[A]

Because I feel like sometimes we read books where like if that was an actor said the lines that is written down, we'd Cringe out a little bit. But I feel like your books, they would land really well and they wouldn't be like cringy. They're just epic. They're epic lines. And so I can see them like translating well to a screen and like just chills like Kennedy said and not being cringed out. I just, yeah, your writing is just, it's meant for the screens. It really is.

[D]

Yeah. I, I, I've always, you know, I grew up loving movies. I think that that's kind of reflected in the books themselves. And I, I too have a problem sometimes with the way characters talk in books that they're just so wordy, you know, And I appreciate in movies how they'll leave a lot up to the actor or the directing to deliver something. Whereas in a book sometimes they'll just be talking and like, no one talks like that.

[B]

Like, no one would say this in real life.

[D]

Yeah. And also like, yeah, like someone gets like three paragraphs to explain themselves. Like, when do people ever give anyone three paragraphs to explain themselves?

[A]

No, no one.

[D]

Exactly. Especially like I, I heard this statistic. I, I don't know if it's still true, but I read this like a while back, but it says like the average pause in a western conversation is less than 0.5 seconds in the interchange of information. When I stop talking, then when you start talking, less than 0.5. Whereas in Japanese culture it's, it's like probably, I think it's like eight times longer. Oh yeah. And I always thought that to be very interesting and I sometimes think about that in. And I'm not sure that statistic is still true. I imagine it is because of the different cultures. But I sometimes think that in books as well, you know, sometimes like you're reading a book and it's like, it's like every, every interchange is like 4 second pause and the person comes back with a perfectly eloquent thing. We're in real life to be like, you know. Yeah, that would be like their opinion, you know, So I try to do that. So I appreciate you noticing that.

[A]

We do. Okay, well, we're kind of talking about movies. Do you have any fan cast for your characters? Like, is there any actors that you feel like would be able to portray, portray your characters really well, or is that an impossible task for you?

[D]

It's a difficult task because the, how would I say it? You know, I wrote the first book in 2012, 2011, and then, you know, got published in 2014. So the actors had a lot of them aged out of It. Right. So there was various actors at various times which I thought would be quite good for it and yet are now too old. Right. What was that guy in Normal People? What was his name?

[C]

Oh, it's. What is the girl's name? Hold on.

[A]

The girl's name is Paul Mezcal.

[D]

Yes, yes. Yeah. For a while I thought Paul Mezcal would make a great Darrow. He's too old now. Right. But I always thought he had that kind of. That inner intensity that's necessary. And also he's not. He's not stereotypically handsome. He's handsome in his own way, which I think. I think there's a temptation to cast everyone to be like CW pretty. But I think that's a mistake. I. I like interesting faces more so, you know, someone who's kind of off kilter handsome like him, I thought would do well as Darrow. But again, they age out.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

So I've never really had anyone particular in mind. The only actor that I did always have as a fan cast in my head was Oliver Reed as Lorna Arcos. If you've seen Gladiator, he's the mentor figure in Gladiator.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[D]

You know, incredible, incredible stage actor. And I, you know, he obviously passed away before I started writing it, but I always imagined Oliver Reed as Lorna Arcos. She's got those big kind of like butcher meaty hands, you know, very kind of stout and surly and obviously drinks like a fish. But otherwise I'm kind of curious. Do you guys have any? I'm always open to good ideas. Yeah.

[C]

I mean, I made a TikTok once and people told me it was bad.

[D]

Oh, no.

[C]

So I'm trying to remember. I did cast. Do you know Barry Keegan? Yeah, Keoghan. I did say him as Severo. I don't know why.

[D]

Yeah, he's got some of that weird internal madness going on.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

The scene was like. Yeah. And then did you see. I can't remember the actor's name. Did you ever watch Dark Matter on Apple tv?

[D]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

The main character that.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[D]

As who?

[C]

As Fitchner.

[D]

Oh, that's an interesting one. Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

Who else did I cast? Oh, I did.

[B]

Didn't you say I did Austin Butler as Cassius?

[D]

I mean, you know, he is pretty enough.

[C]

And then I did.

[B]

Mustang, the girl on Songbird.

[C]

And she was on Euphoria, Hunter Schaefer. Oh, and then there was another one.

[A]

I can't remember.

[C]

I can't remember.

[A]

Anyways, I feel like I also get really hooked on. This is a spoiler Red Darrow vs Gold Darrow. And so I'm like, how, how do you do that?

[C]

I don't know.

[A]

If you got to do some like cgi like Captain America.

[D]

It'S probably the best.

[A]

But I feel like.

[D]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

See like, you know, a smaller version of an actor and then goals of 2025.

[B]

There's a lot we can do. There's a lot we can do.

[D]

We did that. Captain America, I think I'll you tell thought worked pretty effectively. And that was what, 2011 or something?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's been a minute.

[C]

But I mean, Marvel CGI has just really gone downhill from there. So, you know, you never know with cgi.

[A]

I also, I feel like with your books, I feel like I love to see lesser known actors and actresses because I don't. I feel like, you know, when they're well known, they get attached to characters or like past work. And I would love to just see like, actors, actresses that have really nothing behind them. So they can really just like commit.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

To the Red Rising.

[D]

I'm glad you said that. That's, that's. That would be my preference as well. I don't think that. And I think what I prefer them to be lesser known simply so they can inhabit the role better. Right. Also so it'll be easier to deal with. But. Yeah, but mostly so they can have it. The role. You know, I think that the Hunger Games had a great. They had a very rare situation where a rising star melded perfectly with a character. Because Jennifer Lawrence was known in Hollywood, but she was known for Winter's Bone and one other thing. And it just was the perfect timing. You don't often have that. Right. But I agree. And I also think that a lot of the conversation focuses on actors that you think leads look like the character in your head. But I'm also, I'm more of the. I'm more of the. The more interested in someone who will inhabit the character. Like, yeah, walk into the room and you're like, holy moly. That's. That's exactly sev Rose vibe. You know, it can be a little surface level if you're just trying to make them look like the characters I described. Right. Particularly if we're talking about a book that's supposed to be post racial. Right. So it's supposed to be post racial. So it's difficult for me to think that we should only have, you know, a Caucasian actor in mind. For Darrow, for instance. I think it's much more about does the person feel like them? Right.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[D]

And I think that that's particularly important to me when we go down that path. You know, it's finding the one to walk in the room, and you're like, that's Victor energy, you know, Much more so than matching the light description I gave in the book, you know?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Are you gonna have a hard time not having a crush if you're on. You're an actor. Actress. That is big trap.

[D]

I will have a. I will have a perfectly healthy and professional relationship with this. Yes, obviously.

[A]

Obviously.

[D]

Yeah. No, for sure. Probably, like, it'll probably be like, as soon as. As soon as they get, like. She gets, like, the Julie eye armor on, I'm like, oh, no. Yeah, like, when the actors be the actor.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

But then they cut the hair the right way and then, like, saying lines, I'd be like, oh, boy, I'm in trouble. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. Maybe that could be your love story.

[D]

It could be. It could be.

[B]

Write it yourself.

[C]

Yeah, but what if.

[D]

You know what? Be a funny love story. You know, Go ahead.

[B]

No, sorry. Go ahead.

[D]

Oh, no. I don't know. I was just trying to dig myself out of that hole.

[A]

I'm sorry I put you in that hole. I apologize.

[D]

I never thought. That's definitely a question I've not been asked before.

[C]

Hey, there you go.

[D]

Good job.

[B]

Someone read fan fiction.

[D]

The real one I've started thinking about is, like, what if the actor we get to play Darrow, what if he's just an asshole? And I'm like, and I hate this guy. And I'm, like, alienated from my own creation, and he's yet out there being, you know, like, on posters and stuff, like, Darrow, Andromeda. And I'm like, this guy sucks. You know, I don't want that.

[B]

You never know.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

The guy that plays like the Jackal ends up being, like, the greatest dude ever. And I'm like, can we trade? Yeah, can we trade?

[A]

Well, you just make sure that doesn't happen.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

You got some power.

[D]

I'll do my best.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, we really appreciate the time you've taken to speak with us. It truly means the world. So thank you. I think you're like, the most anticipated guest on the podcast. They're gonna lose their minds. So we just want to end with a few. You guys feel.

[C]

Yeah. Good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just few fun questions before we. We close this interview, but first question is, do you have, like, a current obsession? Like, I know you don't have a lot of time, but is there Like a TV show. You're loving a video game, a hobby that you're into. I know you're into gardening. I've seen that on your TikTok.

[D]

Sadly, no video games. Gardening is pretty much my passion right now. I just got this.

[C]

I love that.

[D]

I wish I had it in here, but I just got this new device called the Japanese. It's Japanese, nada n a T A. And it's meant for trees. And it's this. This gorgeous blade that I got. I'm excited to use to trim my trees with. So that's a blade, huh? Yeah. So I've just been getting all sorts of. Because I've done gardening for a long time, but I'd never. I never, Like, I'd never. How did I say? Honored my trees with, like, perfectly shaping them. And so now I'm out there just like, whenever I have free time, hacking at my trees. And it's really fun.

[C]

Who would have thought Pierce Brown has a green thumb. Yeah.

[D]

Yeah. Well, that's. There you go. There we go. So that's. That's pretty much my main fascination there. And the only TV show I'm watching right now is Alien Earth, and I'm really liking that. Written by Noah Hawley, who did the Fargo TV show. And I think it's got a lot of interesting stuff going on, a lot of transhumanism discussion. And basically, you know, who will win in the race for immortality? Will it be cyborgs, which is a human with cybernetic attachments? Will it be Synynths, which are AI constructs in synthetic bodies? Or will it be hybrids, which are human consciousness in a synthetic body? And I think it's okay.

[B]

Interesting.

[C]

Yeah, I need to watch that.

[D]

It's really fun. And the. The actors on it all do a great job. The main concept is, you know, a new. A new tech guru has. His idea is to put child. The consciousness of children into adult bodies. Adult synthetic bodies, because he believes that children have the unlimited potential for creativity. And so he wants to create immortal children. And I don't know, seen that done that way before. So it's pretty interesting.

[B]

Very cool. All right, well, do you have time to read? Do you have a book? Like, are you ever have. Always have something to read Right now.

[D]

I was like, what?

[C]

Can you read us a story?

[A]

Can you read us Red God?

[D]

Actually, yeah, I'm reading. I have to read. So if I don't read, reading is my therapy, pretty much. So I am reading Seneca's Letters to a young Stoic or Seneca's Letters to a Stoic. Right now I'm reading. So I read that in the morning. Mornings often. Like to get my head straight, which is basically. Seneca was a old philosopher. Well, philosopher, but a man of letters who was writing to a pupil of his. And just like, you know, literally he'll have a letter about. On reading and it'll be a five page letter talking about his philosophy around reading. Or it'll be like on good or on virtue or on Marcus's villa. Just talking about a Marcus's villa. And this is really fun to get in the head of someone who's, you know, 2,000 years years gone and see how similar humans or how little humans have evolved since then. So Seneca in the morning right now. And then I'm reading Between Two Fires, which is a medieval horror movie, a horror book that was actually recommended me by Callie Hart. Oh, yeah, Silver Authority. We. We.

[C]

Yeah, I have. I have that on my shelf.

[D]

Oh, well, we. Yeah, we found out we're. We were neighbors so we got a beer like a couple weeks ago and she recommended Fires. And I'm really enjoying it.

[A]

Oh, that's so fun.

[C]

Yeah, that's all my tbr.

[D]

Which one?

[C]

I just bought it the other day, actually.

[D]

Quicksilver.

[C]

Well, we did. We read Quicksilver for a book club.

[A]

Yeah, we did.

[C]

But Between Two Fires.

[D]

Okay. Yeah, I'm really enjoying it so far. Far. It's really. I said the plot's yet to kick in, but the writing is pretty darn good.

[C]

So if you had to recommend a book to someone to read after they finish your books because they're going to be in a reading slump, what book would you recommend to get them out of the Red Rising slump?

[D]

Oh, I almost always recommend Joe Abercrombie. I think that it's. How to say it. There's similarities in some of the stuff we talk about, but in a much different way. And, and so I always recommend the Blade itself oftentimes, you know, if they're. They've not read classic sci fi or it's not really classic sci fi because it's from the 90s, but Hyperion by Dan Simmons.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

They're one of my favorites. Or even like Lord of the Flies or Count of Monte Cristo, some of the ones that really gave me inspiration for Red Rising.

[A]

So yeah, those are both great books.

[D]

Monte Cristo is just the best book ever. Like, I was the first like, I don't know, that was the first like epic literature book I read. I think I was like 12 and I was like, oh, My goodness, this is good. It was, you know, such a monumental undertaking for a 12 year old. But the book, it's just such a ripping yarn and. Sorry, I sound like an old man ripping yard, but it really is. It's so good.

[A]

Oh, well, this has been so fun. Thank you for your advice on what to read after the Red Rising slump. I know a lot of our listeners are currently reading Red Rising, and so they're gonna need that after for sure.

[D]

We didn't do too many spoilers for them and our code worked really well.

[C]

I think it'll be okay. Yeah, we might have to just. Yeah.

[A]

Put it in the show notes.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Skip, listen at your own risk.

[A]

Yeah, listen at your own risk. I mean, it's hard to not.

[D]

It's hard.

[B]

Yeah, it's hard.

[D]

I know.

[A]

I know it's hard.

[C]

It's hard. Especially with the way Red Rising starts.

[D]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[D]

It's like, how do you sell that?

[C]

We get 60 pages in. And I was like, did he really just do that?

[D]

Yeah. The funny thing is I had IO as a character before I had Darrow as a character. And it was. Darrow came from having. So Iyo was the first character I had in the Red Rising world. And so if you think about it until, like about 45 pages in, she's the only character who shows agency. It's her book. She's the only one whose decisions affect other people. Darrow's just kind of along for the ride, and IO is deciding everything. And Darrow came from knowing what would happen, you know, in the first pages of the book. Because I was inspired by Antigone, the group of Sophocles play. And I was curious what was. What happened after Antigone's fate? And so that's where Darrow came from. So it's really funny. But it is hard to pitch the book without, like, ruining. Not ruining, but spoiling the first, like, 40 pages.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Well, I'll never forget, like, where I was when I read those. Like, I remember texting Kennedy and I was like, I'm on page, like 40, whatever. And I'm like, I'm already sobbing.

[C]

So it's a reflection of how the rest of the series goes. Yes. Yeah.

[A]

It really sets the pace. Yeah.

[D]

The most I get is what's wrong with me or what happened.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, we love whatever's wrong with you.

[A]

It's fine.

[D]

Appreciate that.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

I feel like I have allies here.

[B]

Oh, yeah, we got you. We got you.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, thank you so much. Again. We really appreciate it, and we will just, you know, be on pins and needles for the next. However long we have, but, you know, no pressure.

[C]

Take your time.

[B]

Take your time.

[D]

When I get it locked in, we'll have to. We'll have to do another one of these.

[C]

Love Nothing. Yes.

[B]

It would be our honor, so thank.

[C]

You for the time, and it would be our honor.

[D]

Great host. I feel like we're just chatting over beers, but.

[C]

Oh, thank you so much.