← Imagine Heaven Podcast with John Burke
Imagine Heaven Podcast with John Burke
A Special Message: Connecting Into God's Presence
00:42:37
In this special episode, John and Kathy Burke explore how the way you imagine God--His heart, character, and attributes--shapes every part of your life. The thoughts you hold about God are the most important ones you have, because they influence how...
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- [00:02]
A
Well, welcome. Today on the Imagine Heaven podcast, we are talking about my favorite topic with my favorite person, Kathy Burke. Glad you're back. We did one episode together, but we are, I think we're talking about the most important and yet at the same time, underappreciated topic, which is how do you imagine God's heart, God's character, God's attributes, and specifically how he sees you and how it affects you? Because I'm convinced that probably more than anything else, the way you think about God affects you for better or for worse. And not many of us think about that maybe hard enough. Like, how do I get better at accurately imagining God the way, the way he really is?
- [00:56]
B
And I, and I want to say too, that when we do understand God and His love and goodness the way he really is, and that we have access to him through the Holy Spirit in us, it's not hard to reflect his love and goodness in the world.
- [01:13]
A
Yeah, it does, because he. He changes you as you see him, the way he sees you. And, and that's why I'm excited about having my wife of 37 years join me for this. She's also, you might not know, but my editor, my first go to editor, she's been partner in ministry for the whole time we've been together pretty much. But she's also an author in her own right. So I write and she edits my books. And then she wrote the Imagine heaven devotional in 2018, which got great reviews and I helped, but really edited her. And we're excited that this week, this new Imagine the God of Heaven Devotional is being launched. She really did the lion's share of crafting the devotionals. So you have been on this journey. You've met many of the 1500 people that. Near death experiencers. Yeah. And, and one of the things, you know, that people will sometimes say is, you know, why would we incorporate near death experiences into a scripture study of reflections on God? You know, which is, which is what really you've done here is take an aspect of God's character, something that the scriptures talk about, his sovereignty or omnipotence or love, and then also show not only what the scripture says, but what near death experiencers who've experienced that characteristic have said about it. And then a reflection. And some people, you know, would say, we've got the scriptures, we don't need to listen to these near death experiencers. Let's, let's talk a little bit about the why of that.
- [03:08]
B
Well, for me, I have actually been a Christ follower. For a very long time, as long as I can remember and have loved living by the truth of scripture. And it's solid and I can know and depend on it. But there's just something about hearing from these people that now with the modern medicine, they actually can be resuscitated and share that just makes it all come to life in a fresh way for me. It has, I have to say, and even talking to these people, and I've interviewed some too myself, it's just amazing how encouraging it is and how much it blesses me to have that tangible explanation of what they've experienced make these scriptures come to life.
- [04:02]
A
Yeah, and I think, you know, as I've said before, I don't think we need what near death experiencers say to know God, to follow God. He has revealed all we need. In, in the scriptures, it says in Deuteronomy 29, 29, you know, the things of God, of this, this law has been made known to us so that we might follow God, but the mysteries of God belong to him. And you know, so there are mysteries that we don't fully understand yet. I think, you know, it's kind of like adding color to a picture. So the black and white words of scripture are completely true, but what these people are doing in telling us their testimony, and I think they're just their testimonies like any other, but they're adding color to the picture that Scripture gives us of just the wonder, the wonderful, amazing character of God.
- [04:57]
B
And I also think that sometimes it's nice to have something put you into that right brain, into that creative space as you're thinking about these things.
- [05:11]
A
You mean right brain, left brain?
- [05:13]
B
Yeah, like, like reading and understanding just. I don't know, for me, it, it's, it just adds a lot to have that picture to then experience the truth of Scripture.
- [05:30]
A
Yeah. And she's talking about how, you know, left brain is typically more analytical, you know, you know, the, the just think about it. Right brain, more feeling. I mean, it's not that simple, but. Yeah, but just that that sense of the heart of God can come through in a way that, you know, maybe just hearing the words and just thinking about the words doesn't hit you in the same.
- [05:52]
B
Yeah, it helps you feel it and it helps you really take it to heart. And.
- [05:57]
A
Yeah, you know, the other thing that I think is important is to realize that we all put God in a box. You know, we have to because we're finite. So God is infinite. What does that mean? We don't have a clue It's a mystery way beyond us. Right. You know, we all put God in a box and we have to because we're finite. And so what I think these near death experience stories do is help us take what scripture says and help expand our box. You know, help us imagine better what God is really like. And you know, imagination is something that is a gift from God. We're supposed to imagine. Sometimes people think imagination means imaginary. And of course that's not true. Imagination is tied, I believe, to faith. You know, if you think about it, we are created in the image of God and part of that image is that we can create. But creation starts in the imagination. I can imagine building a home and I can imagine, draw the pictures from what I have in my mind and then it can come to be. And so imagination is a gift from God that helps us put our faith in God. You know, Hebrews 12 says faith is, is the assurance of things unseen or the conviction of things unseen.
- [07:27]
B
The assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen.
- [07:31]
A
Yeah, exactly what she said. So I think, I think that's part of why, you know, near death experiences, I believe, are to be interpreted through the lens of scripture, not, not the other way around. And I've written extensively in Imagine the God of Heaven about why that is. But on the other hand, it can be a great gift to help us understand God and imagine God and like Kathy said, help who God is and how he feels about us. Connect to the heart a lot better. So let's talk about God's heart. You know, in, in Imagine the God of Heaven devotional, some of the devotions talk about the mystery and the majesty of God. So things that, that are, that are kind of hard to, hard to comprehend. Some of the unseen things, even like prayer, like, how does prayer work? I know you, you really liked that devotion. You wrote my.
- [08:36]
B
One of my favorites to study.
- [08:38]
A
So give that as. Talk about that. Give it an example.
- [08:42]
B
Okay. I have some notes here. I'm new at this. It's not in my wheelhouse. The podcast thing here, John's a pro, so I'm going to be reading some readings. Fine. So, yeah, like with, with the whole thing with prayer, it's fascinating to me that many of these ND ears actually saw prayers going up to the throne of God and that just. I love that because it's enhanced my prayer life as I pray for people to. It's. It's like an active faith prayer where I'm visualizing my prayers going up to the throne of God and it Gives me that confident, hopeful expectation that it will move the hand of God. And.
- [09:36]
A
And he hears everyone.
- [09:37]
B
And he hears everyone.
- [09:38]
A
Yeah. That's something I think we don't really conceive of. We kind of think, well, if I didn't get what I answered, then he didn't hear. And. And Scripture says that's not tr. Also, many of these people.
- [09:52]
B
Yeah. And. And one of the ones I love, of course, focuses on the power of a mother's prayer in particular, I think a parent's prayer also. But we shared about Steve Kong, who died from an overdose. And he attributes the fact that he was saved in his case from hell. From going to hell. He was finding himself on the way there because his mother, who was a Buddhist at the time, actually called her Christian friends to come over and pray because she knew the things she was doing. And I think she even.
- [10:33]
A
Well, he had smoked a death bowl.
- [10:35]
B
Yeah.
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A
And then. And then committed suicide.
- [10:39]
B
Yeah.
- [10:39]
A
Hearing from Sad. Yeah. What he thought was the Buddha that if you'll take your own life, I'll reward you. And it turned out to be a demonic trick.
- [10:51]
B
Yeah. Yeah. But he had. He said that he. He knows that it was the prayers of his mother and the people that Christian friends that she called that saved his life. Ian McCormick, too, you know, he died from the box. Jellyfish stings. And where was he?
- [11:15]
A
Mauritius.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Okay. And he remembers all of a sudden he had a vision of his mother telling him to pray the Lord's Prayer. And he said that. Just that vision of his mother praying. And then he.
- [11:37]
A
And his mother was.
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B
And his mother was praying.
- [11:39]
A
God woke her up at the same time.
- [11:41]
B
Yeah. Was heard by God. And the reason why he survived this one. I love Ivan Tuttle. He. I'm going to read. Read it. He credits his mother's prayers for saving his life. He said that. Well, he was having a really hellish NDE after taking drugs and partying for days. He said. But then he said, I heard a voice. So he's having. He's in the near death experience. He said, I heard a voice like a mighty roar of thunder that said it's not his time yet. His mother has been praying for him since he was a little boy. You must release him now. I made a promise. The voice said, my mother had prayed over 28,000 times for me and it was her faithful prayers that saved me. That just really moves me as a mother and should move us all. Just as people call to pray for others that God really does hear and.
- [12:48]
A
They reach his throne and the meditation I remember, you know, was the, was a passage in Nehemiah. When they, when they cry out to you again, you'll hear from heaven. And in your compassion you'll. You delivered them time and time again. And so it's, you're saying that's the scripture that goes with that to help you start to picture that. And I remember another one too of where the near death experiencer reported that God hears every prayer, every single one made from the heart. And we don't always see it answered the way we would think because he's taking everything and everyone into account.
- [13:26]
B
And, and also that scripture about in Psalm 56, 8, you keep track of my sorrows. You've collected all my tears in your bottle. You've recorded each one in your book. Gary Wood, Dr. Gary Wood saw the bottle, so did Randy Kay filled with our tears. So it's just, I don't know, I just find that super fascinating, very comforting and really powers me to want to continue to. In expectant faith.
- [14:02]
A
Well, and to picture God as one who cares and does hear and we can trust him that he does hear. I think that's part of what this does. It helps us trust him more that, okay, even though I don't completely understand how it's working out, he is hearing, he does take into account, you know, maybe you, maybe you're praying for something. Then you have, it's been a decade and you haven't seen anything happen and you're like, well then he doesn't hear. But that's, that's not, that's not the truth. And sometimes it takes time and he's working with the free will of many other people. You know, one of the ones that, that is in here that, that I really loved about that just shows the mystery and majesty of God. Things we can't, that are unseen is about God's omnipotence. So I think it was, I think we called it sovereign overall or something like that. But you know, you read that in scripture about God is the omnipotent all powerful God, like Isaiah 46, he says, I am God, there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say my purpose will stand and I will do all that I please, what I have planned and that I will do. And you know, I mean you, you know, you, you read that and you can imagine a lot of different things. You know, one might be that, well, I don't like your plan because I don't like the way Things are going right or, you know, things still feel out of control or scary or confusing and it's hard to trust God. And so, you know, in. I remember in that devotional we, we were talking about several people who had been through all kinds of suffering and crisis and yet when they died and were in God's presence, it all made sense. So Mark Madonna was one of them. He was actually 16. In a house fire. He lost his mom and his younger brother. He rescued his two, he was the oldest. He rescued his two other brothers and, and he got, excuse me, he got so badly burned in the fire that he had burns over 65% of his body and, and in the ambulance or actually was in surgery about 10 days later, he died. And here's what he said. He said he's in the presence of Jesus with his mom and his brother and his grandfather who had passed away. And he said this. The euphoria, the happiness, the laughter. As quickly as I could think of a question, the answer was there. And the answers were so simple, so joyful and so clear. I thought, oh yes, of course, that makes complete sense. It all fits together and makes perfect sense. And I'm right where I should be and things are just the way they should be. It's all going to work. It's all going to be okay. And you know, the, the point of the devotional that Kathy wrote in there I love is that God is not bound by time. He sees not only all that was and is, but also all that is going to come. He sees how it will work all together. And when you hear from these near death experiencers that one day we will understand that God not only was sovereign and in control, but he really did work everything for the good of those who followed him and loved him. That can help us trust today. And that's what I love is, you know, you really did a great job of helping us think about how does this, so how does this characteristic of God's sovereignty apply today?
- [17:55]
B
I think it, for me, when things just seem really hard, it's like knowing that he's. He sees the victory, he sees the solution, he sees how it's worked out and we know it's for our good. We love him and are in line with, with what he's with him in our lives. We know that it gives that comfort. It's reassuring to me.
- [18:30]
A
Yeah.
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B
And it just helps you take that next day of the hard thing. Right. Because.
- [18:36]
A
Doesn't mean it's not hard.
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B
Doesn't mean it's not hard. But it helps trust, you know, that someone sees the, the, the way it's going to be good.
- [18:45]
A
And we're bound by time. God's not. Yeah, yeah. You know, some of, some of the devotions are really designed to help expand our box in relation to God's personhood, his personality and how, how personal he. He is. Talk about some of the ones in that realm that you liked.
- [19:08]
B
Of course, my. I love them all. I mean there's 60 attributes we talk about in the book, but I have to say them. The, the motherly love. The motherly love part.
- [19:19]
A
Yeah. We've all. We've heard of the fatherhood of the father Father and. Yes, but most people don't think about that. If, if, if humans are created in his image, male and female, he created.
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B
Them.
- [19:34]
A
Maternal, maternal aspects to the heart of God.
- [19:37]
B
And he actually himself really does draw that out in scripture several times. That the maternal aspect of his own character. He compares himself.
- [19:50]
A
Isaiah 66, I think he compares himself.
- [19:53]
B
Yeah. As a mother comforts her child, so will I comfort you. There's, there's a lot of other scriptures as well.
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A
Jesus, I wanted to take you under my. Like a mother hen, cares for her and protects her chicks, but you wouldn't let me.
- [20:07]
B
That's when he was feeling that, oh, I wanted to do this.
- [20:10]
A
Yeah, he.
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B
That's.
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A
He was being rejected. Yeah.
- [20:13]
B
To me in that passage, it's like a mother who just knows what's best for her child. And you just, you are like a mother hen and you just want to protect. But sometimes you have to let that child make the choices that they're going to make and love him through it. Right. That's what I hear that verse saying.
- [20:31]
A
Yeah.
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B
But some of the, the near death, near death experiencers, they even said it was. He felt like a mother. He felt like, like I'll, I'll read about God's comfort. Felt like one gal, Mickey, when, when she died. I'm, I'm not going to read the whole thing, but I will read. When she said he, he told her it was time for her to go back because her time had not yet come and she was really upset about it. So she would begin pleading with him. She says, I was crying and begging so loud that I suddenly felt God's arms come down. And he lifted me off my feet and cradled me as a mother cradles her baby against her breast. He rocked me and held me in his arms. And I just think that is just really moving.
- [21:23]
A
And that was God the Father on his throne.
- [21:26]
B
He just he took her like, like a mother. And then also, you know, Howard Storm, and you've written about him quite a bit. He also talked about how when he called out, cried out to Jesus to save him, and when he was on his way to hell or experiencing the hell, outskirts of hell or whatever, that when Jesus came, he talked about how he held him close like a parent who had just found his long lost child. He said he held me and caressed me like a mother with her baby. He held me close and stroked my back. And I just, I just think that's a beautiful, beautiful picture. And of course, in scripture he does say, this is one of my favorites. God himself says through the prophet Isaiah, he said, or when the, when the, when his people said, the Lord has deserted us, the Lord has forgotten us. He said, never can a mother forget her nursing child. Can she feel no love for the child she has borne. But even if that were possible, I would not forget you. I've written your name on the palms of my hands. That is, that is pretty clear. He's comparing himself to, to a nursing mother.
- [22:52]
A
So with a little child.
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B
When you asked about the personal qualities and what touched me as a mother, I have to say, as a mother and a grandmother who.
- [23:03]
A
Yes, well, and, and so there, and there are devotions on the fatherhood of God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, understanding, you know, these, these various aspects of the, of the heart and character of God revealed. But some of these, like maybe that you've never thought about. You know, I remember when Howard told me his story, you know, he, he, he had, he had blasphemed God and cursed Jesus and tried to convince all his students it wasn't real. And then he finds himself in this hellish place, cries out to Jesus kind of as a last ditch effort, and he comes and he saves him. And Howard was bawling like a baby while Howard, while, while Jesus was holding him close. And then he said, just starts to rub his back and it is the most. And, and this is, this is the power, I think of daily meditating on one aspect of the reality of God's heart and God's character, you know, and that really, that's why we wanted to write this devotional. Not just to learn it and think about it, you know, and some of the other books I've written, you just read it and it's like, wow, that's cool.
- [24:19]
B
But, well, but books are really, really good.
- [24:22]
A
Well, but, but I, but I think.
- [24:25]
B
They'Re very application, but I think I.
- [24:27]
A
Get, I get excited about it. Because I, you know, I edited this book and I. I did it about three at a time. So I would, I would kind of experience it as a daily meditation, you know, a daily reflection. And it really does help you go deep in understanding not only the way God views you, what God's really like, but also. Okay, and what difference does that make? Because it does. It makes a huge difference in the way you, you view God. You know, one of the ones that, about the personal nature of God that I think I liked and it impacted me the most was the one we called it the intimacy of God. And the, the scripture that day is Psalm 63. And this is a psalm of David. Oh God, you are my God. I earnestly search for you. My soul thirst for you. My whole body longs for you. Your unfailing love is better than life itself. How I praise you. That's Psalm 63. 1:3. And, and you know, so, so here's the thing. Like, so we read that and it, it doesn't necessarily connect. It's kind of like, okay, David, well, your whole body longs for God. I don't get that. And we go on about our business, right? But what if we really sat with that and realized, wait, maybe David knew something about God that I don't fully comprehend, you know, that, that there is something about the intimacy and love for God that if I really did understand, I would long for what he has to give. Like you would long for the. The thing or the person you love most. And interestingly so, some of the near death experiencers report that Cedric Pazegna, who. Who is now a Catholic, a Catholic priest, but before he became a Catholic priest.
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B
Passionist priest.
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A
Yeah, yeah, really, really talking about the cross and the effect of the, of the cross. But he talks about, he calls it the scary intimacy of God when he was in this near death experience of how close God wanted to be. And he was not walking with God at this point. He had done a lot of things wrong and he was just beginning to. To come back to God. But here's what he said. Despite all that, he's standing there before the throne of God. Jesus, he said, had his arm around him like, like a friend or a brother, holding him close. And he said, God's care and affection for me were not conditioned on my goodness. Rather, there was such powerful, pulsating goodness radiating. Radiating from God that I was. It was overwhelming. God's love is an energetic passion. God's love is affectionate. It's very intimate and personal. I realized that not only Did God love me? He was in love with me. And what I mean is that he knew me through and through and still had his heart set upon me. I was overwhelmed in the intensity and intimacy of God's love. God is obsessed with us.
- [27:52]
B
That's sweet.
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A
Well, I mean, it's sweet. I wouldn't use that word, but it's.
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B
Sweet that God is obsessed with us.
- [28:01]
A
Well, I think it is powerful when you realize that God is the love that you and I have craved and always wanted. That no human relationship, and as close as a human relationship can be, still we let each other down, we fall short. No one fully knows us the way we want to be known. We don't fully give that to others the way they need it or desire it. But there is a love like that. And the reason we crave it is because there is something to meet that craving, that, that thirst. And so I think letting your, your heart and your mind soak in that will change you. And that's powerful, right? I mean, when you really realize if God feels that way about me, why wouldn't I trust him with everything and why wouldn't I want to know him more?
- [28:58]
B
That's good. I like that.
- [29:00]
A
So. So some of the devotionals relate to just personal living, kind of doing life with God and others daily as we reflect on the character God and then how we do life with God. One of the ones I know that, that you wrote about is how God is a righteous judge. How does that relate to things today?
- [29:24]
B
I think when we hear God is a righteous judge, immediately we're like, bad, you bad. You know, he's a righteous judge. By that we also mean we are not a righteous judge. We are not righteous judges. Right and righteous meaning right, good, goodness, righteous, not, not stringent necessarily.
- [29:48]
A
And yes, arbitrary.
- [29:50]
B
Yes, he is also a very right and wrong. Yes. I'm not saying that, but I think when we think about it, sometimes what I was trying also to. To write about is that we're not the righteous judges. But how often do we just take. Take that role upon ourselves? All the time.
- [30:11]
A
It's. It's happening all over in our society.
- [30:14]
B
He's a good judge. He's goodness in love. We often aren't.
- [30:18]
A
Of course, the. I don't remember the scripture exactly that went with that 1st Corinthians 4 where Paul says, judge nothing before the appointed time. Wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and expose the motives of the heart. And at that time each will receive their praise from God. That's 1 Corinthians 4, 5. Jesus said, Judge not lest you be judged. Right? And I think the way we can better do that and our society needs it in spades, right? I mean it's, we are, we are judging each other all over, all the time, social media, politics. And you know, if you don't think the way I do, you know, I'm, I'm condemning you. And the reason God tells us not to do that is because we're not, not righteous in our judgments. We don't know everything. I Remember Ron Smotherman, Dr. Ron, when we interviewed him, I don't know if he's in that particular devotion. He's not. But he said when he was there before this God of light who was all powerful, he knew this was the triune God. But he said one of the characteristics that was just so clear and is that God was a judge that you would want to go before because you would know it would be correct. That's the way he said it. He said there was no doubt he would be the right decision on everything. And so no matter what, you would want him to decide because it would be right. And I think that's the, the part of it that seeing God that way then helps us.
- [32:03]
B
The devotional actually is more focused on the fact that we need to leave the judging to God and how we are not the righteous judge. It's Mother Teresa who said if you judge people, you don't have time to love them. And we do know that we're called to love people. That is something we're called to do. And so I love that that quote by her. But some of the, the near death experiencers that we used to illustrate the fact that we are not the righteous judgment, only God is, is. When Dean said you'd be surprised at who you'll see in heaven, he was really surprised. He was talking about his Aunt Barbara, that he had her in a whole different place. And he said there was Aunt Barbara shining a big smile of pure joy and she was in heaven. I wasn't expecting, expecting that somewhere in her life she must have made a decision for Jesus. I don't know when it happened, how it happened, but Jesus did. And it didn't matter if I knew, it mattered if he knew. I think many of us will find people there we didn't think would make it to heaven. And then Dean goes on to talk about how he does. When you were talking about putting God in a box, he says he thinks we put God in a box. And that Jesus wants, He, he wants everybody with him and he will go to every extent that they be there. We, we can only judge based on limited interactions with people. But God knows the heart. He knows where they've been. He knows what just. He knows the heart. And so I just. Actually you even had an example that you brought into this one having to do with trees.
- [33:58]
A
Oh yeah, yeah. Well, it was just a way to think about, you know, our judgments and how they can, they can be off. And the analogy is imagine a tree, you know, a six foot tall tree that's, that's grown over the last five years from five feet to six feet. Right. And you know, think about a person who, you see, who you know seems like this incredible godly character and they go to church and they serve and they're, you know, they're, they're kind and all this. And then you see another person who seems immoral. They're, they struggle with immorality. They're, they're, you know, what you might call bad. Right. And yet the reality is maybe God knows that that person, you know, who was the six foot tall moral tree grew from five feet to six feet. Meanwhile, the one foot person that seemed bad in our judgment has gone from 6 inches to 1 foot in the same amount of time. So who's really grown the most? The one who grew 20% that looked righteous or the one that grew a hundred percent but still doesn't look the same as the one who started from a completely different place. And the point is we are all starting from different places and only God sees the heart and the momentum and how far they've come as well. And so it helps us, I think, just let go of our judgments and trust God to judge.
- [35:45]
B
Yeah, that's good.
- [35:46]
A
You know, one other thing about that scripture is that I like to point out is it says, wait for God to come, he's the righteous judge, and then he will reward us. And I think so many times people think of God as a judge who's going to punish, but God is also a judge like the judges at the Olympics who reward those for a race well run. And I just think we often forget that.
- [36:15]
B
Yeah. And I think, I think too having that attitude toward people that we are to love them and we don't know how far they may have grown. Right. That actually brings out more of God's goodness from them, I believe.
- [36:33]
A
Yeah.
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B
And it actually helps them grow more, you know, rather than take a judgment stance upon them.
- [36:41]
A
Absolutely. You know, one other that I think shows applicational part Is the. The one on forgiveness, the devotion on forgiveness, that God is a forgiver, but he also wants us to be like him and forgive, you know, and we know Matthew 6. Jesus teaches us to. For in the. In the Lord's Prayer to pray, forgive us our sins, which he says he will, as we have forgiven those who sin against us. And of course, Jesus goes on to say, you know, God's serious about that. And, you know, in the devotional on that, we. We tell Tony Davis's story. Tony Davis is a gospel recording artist who was on the streets of LA just minding his own business. Got shot five times by an LA gang, teenagers. And it was an initiation. You had to kill someone to get into the gang. And here Tony is, bleeding out on the streets. He leaves his body, he goes up and he sees the City of God and is overwhelmed, you know, with the love of God. And he hears, it's not your time. And of course, like most, he begged, begged God to stay. But God said this to him. There's a message I need you to deliver to my people. A message of forgiveness and triumph over tragedy. And Tony continues to. To beg God to. To let him stay. And again, he heard Tony, I need you to deliver this message to my people. So Tony revives. He's in the hospital. He had been dead for 30 minutes, so they're about to do a tracheostomy, which means they. He would never sing again. And he was a professional gospel singer, so he. He traveled around singing gospel. Gospel music. And he was. He would never sing again. And they were also. They were going to have to amputate his leg. And he's just sitting there, just like, lord, why did you bring me back to this. What's. What's left of my life? And he said a loving presence entered the room. And he heard one word, forgive. And Tony said, his. His reply was, you've got to be kidding. Look at what they did to me. God, I've never. I've never hurt anybody. I've never shot any. I've never even held a gun. They shot me for no reason. They've taken my life from me. And again he hears, forgive and I'll make you whole. And finally he did.
- [39:25]
B
He.
- [39:25]
A
He let it go. He remembered how Jesus has forgiven even those nailing him to the cross. And he said, help me. And he. He let it go. He forgave them. And today, not only does he walk, his leg was not amputated, but he sings. It's amazing, miraculously. And it's just a Testimony that God is a forgiver, but also he takes seriously how he wants us to be forgivers just like he is as well. And that many times when we fail to, when we hold on to that unforgiveness, it blocks something that God wants to do in our lives potentially. So I thought that was a. Yeah, a really powerful, really powerful one.
- [40:10]
B
Yeah.
- [40:11]
A
Yeah, it is. Well, any last things that you want to say to our listeners about Imagine God of Heaven devotional?
- [40:21]
B
Well, not so much about, necessarily about the devotional, but I would just say that God loves everyone. Every human he created with extravagant love, everybody listening with extravagant love, and every person is a. Is a masterpiece according to God. And understanding his heart toward us in that way is just so important in being able to have peace and joy during, during some dark times as we're in right now. But we can have that because he alone can give us that. That peace when we really understand how important we are to Him. And so that's what I want to say.
- [41:11]
A
Well, and, and I will say as well, I'm really, I'm really excited for you guys to hopefully, you know, take some time to meditate on these truths of God. You don't need, you don't need this book. In fact, I would, I would advise you to be in the scriptures way more than anything I write or Kathy writes. But if we can help you imagine God more clearly and in a way that doesn't just connect with your head, but also your heart so that it lives out in your life, that's. That's what we're devoting our lives to doing.
- [41:43]
B
Oh. A kind of fun thing that we were reminded of is we actually read the audiobook.
- [41:51]
A
Oh, yeah, we traded.
- [41:54]
B
I read the odd numbers and he read the even numbers. So some people like to listen more than they read, but kind of fun.
- [41:59]
A
If you like to listen instead of reading, you can get it on an audiobook as well or at the library.
- [42:06]
B
The library should have copies too. Not the audio, but it'll have the print copies.
- [42:11]
A
Yeah, I don't know. Haven't checked, but maybe so. Well, anyway, this has been fun. Thank you, Kathy, for joining me. And we will see you in the next episode of the Imagine Heaven podcast. And until then, be blessed.