← Imagine Heaven Podcast with John Burke
Imagine Heaven Podcast with John Burke
Marine’s Life-Changing NDE: Instant Freedom from Guilt and Trauma
01:16:43
Mike Lewis lived for years under the weight of horrific things that had been done to him - and what he had done to others. Shaped by childhood trauma, buried shame, and a constant sense of condemnation, he believed God could only be disappointed, if...
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- [00:02]
John Burke
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- [00:30]
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- [01:01]
John Burke
Have you ever felt shame, condemnation, felt dirty, stained? Kind of like God must be just disgusted with you because you keep screwing up or you've just gone too far. Was that really how God feels about you? Well, today you're going to find out as you hear from former Marine captain Mike Lewis, who had some terrible things done to him and he did some horrible things and he thought, you know, God probably couldn't stand to have him in his presence. And then he had a near death experience. He was shocked. Well, I'm John Burke, author of the New York Times best selling book Imagine Heaven. And this is the Imagine Heaven podcast. Hey. Well, welcome, Mike Lewis. I wanted to just before you share, you know, I always think it's, it's helpful for people to realize that what you're sharing might sound really wild. And that's, and that's why people are so reticent to share what you know, often they say is more real to them than this life has been, but also to just realize that, you know, so many of you sharing this, you have nothing to gain sharing it. You don't, you don't need to. Mike is actually a former captain in the Marines, so an officer in the Marines, then after serving in the Marine Corps was an engineer for Boeing. After that career ended up shifting to EMC software where he was in charge of business development for about $250 million of product a year. And now he is semi retired, which I understand it's like you think you're going to retire, but you're busier than ever because he has two patents and one patent pending. But Mike reached out to us and I got to hear some of his story, and I can't wait for you to hear it because I think it's going to really help in all of life. I think Mike has a lot of wisdom because of the things and the difficulties even that he's been through. So, Mike, thanks so much.
- [03:15]
Mike Lewis
You're welcome, John. My pleasure. Absolutely. So good to meet you.
- [03:20]
John Burke
Well, and dive in, you know, if you don't mind. Kind of take us back to setting up some of the, some of the challenges you had growing up and then the challenges in marriage and then what kind of led up to the NDE and the major shift that happened in your life.
- [03:35]
Mike Lewis
Exactly. That's, that's a good chronology. You know, it's difficult to even mention now, but it's been dealt with and fully put to bed by the living God, our father, for sure. But I was molested at the age of six by a trusted, you know, supposedly trusted family acquaintance. It wasn't repeated, but it was, it was enough to, you know, kind of set me off on a, on a course of developmental abeyance.
- [04:04]
John Burke
Oh, yeah.
- [04:05]
Mike Lewis
When things, you know, kind of traumatic like that happen to a young child, it kind of stops development in certain areas. Because at that age, I mean, what do you do with that? You don't, you don't know what to do with that. You don't have any skills around that. You know, you're just, you know, you're just kind of like fresh cement, you know.
- [04:25]
John Burke
Well, yeah, and I, you know what's so sad? I mean, Mike, I, I have interviewed four near death experiencers in the last couple months who have had tragic abuse, sexual abuse, and they were all men.
- [04:41]
Mike Lewis
Oh, wow.
- [04:41]
John Burke
And I think people don't realize, you know, many people know one third of women reported have been sexually abused, but almost the same amount number of men. Now, it used to be 1 out of 10, but I think it's, it's just increasing. But of course, men don't want to talk about it. You know, I mean, women don't either, but.
- [05:06]
Mike Lewis
Well, you know why men don't talk about it? Because, you know, big boys don't cry. That was another distortion I grew up with was, you know, big boys don't cry. So in other words, you're, you're not supposed to feel or show emotion. Not long after that happened, I started having this just terrible nightmare. I've said to My family, just, you know, my wife and just a couple others that. I must have had that stupid nightmare like a hundred times, John. It's the only thing that I can remember all the details about other than my near death experience.
- [05:44]
John Burke
What was.
- [05:47]
Mike Lewis
Always started the same. I'm heading up this stairway to like a rooftop, but it's dark and I know something is behind me. And I turn around and look and for lack of any better terminology, I look back and I see these two little forms, these two little demons, these two little dark things, and they're after me. And I'm running to the top of the steps and I get to the roof and I look out across into the field and I see this farmer on a tractor and he's pulling a plow. And right then he stops and. And he gets down and looks and I can see that he has plowed up a bunch of bones of dead people. And right then I'm. I look to my left and there's like a chest on the roof. And I go over and open it and it's full of bones. I. I was just scared of death or scared to death. I don't know what it was, but I started wetting the bed and I started having these terrible stomach cramps. My parents were. It was driving them crazy because I'd. I'd have these sessions of stomach cramps curled up in the fetal position on the couch on a Saturday morning when I should be watching cartoons. Right. And I'm crying, you know, and this is like the age of six or seven or eight right in there.
- [07:16]
John Burke
Wow.
- [07:16]
Mike Lewis
Yeah.
- [07:17]
John Burke
And, you know, it's so common though, because, you know, there's even a book. Your body keeps score. Right.
- [07:24]
Mike Lewis
And.
- [07:26]
John Burke
And your body does. Your body tells you things that are going on in your soul and emotions, even if you're told to shove it down.
- [07:35]
Mike Lewis
Right.
- [07:35]
John Burke
And. And, you know, I think. I think what's difficult is I think to some degree, God gives us protections as young children when we don't know how to deal with things. And so we. We dissociate or we. But in time, you got to deal with them in a healthier way than just shoving them down. Right. You.
- [07:55]
Mike Lewis
You do, but the skills and the abilities to do that don't come until later and only then if you're fortunate. Right. A lot of people go to their graves with this. Oh, that happened a long time ago. It's no big deal. It's history. You know, they want to keep it buried.
- [08:10]
John Burke
Yeah.
- [08:11]
Mike Lewis
Much unknown to them at great expense of their emotions.
- [08:15]
John Burke
Yeah. And probably their relationships.
- [08:18]
Mike Lewis
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Because I don't want to run to the end of the sermon here, but after my transformation, I learned and saw and understood my true self for the first time. Prior to that, I would have said, well, that's just the way I am, which was an ego. It's a false self that develops when you have a lot of things going on that distort your views of relationships. You know, sex, marriage, business, money, you know, name it. Right, absolutely. So anyway, that's kind of the backstory of a lot of kind of pain and suffering. And so as I move, you know, to move on kind of into the more mature years of my life after. After my OCS and after graduating with my commission, I took some time off, a little bit of leave time, and got marri and. Which resulted in the birth of two of my wonderful three children. But I was still that old, compromised man of uncharacter. I was lacking character. I just, you know, there were some good things about me, I would say, but there were some things that were not healed, not fixed, not clearly worked through. And as a result, I compromised my character and my marriage and myself. Even if it was just once, it could be a thousand times in the same result, which ended up basically after about three months of just internal torment. I went to my wife at the time and I said, look, I've got to talk to you about something because I don't know what is going on with me. I don't know what is wrong. I don't know why I did this, but I did. And I. And I got to. This is either going to make our marriage stronger than it ever could have been, or it's going to grenade it.
- [10:30]
John Burke
Well, was it adultery? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [10:34]
Mike Lewis
Just, I mean, one evening and. But you know, you know, and it's funny how when you're an egotistical person, you're like, ah, she doesn't like me anyway. You know, you justify the dumbest things and you justify your actions because the ego will never tell you that it's wrong. It's always right. And you know, what's good for me. Well, that's what makes it right.
- [10:58]
John Burke
Right.
- [10:59]
Mike Lewis
If you get in the way of me getting what I want. Well, that's how I define wrong. I mean, that's. That's kind of the fabric of morality today.
- [11:08]
John Burke
That's kind of the. That's. That's kind of the core of sin. Nature. My will be done on earth and heaven.
- [11:15]
Mike Lewis
Yeah, yeah, well said. So. Well, what happens when you Pull the pin on a grenade and you let go of the spoon. You know, there's a thing on a cold, a spoon. It doesn't go shrapnel until you let.
- [11:27]
John Burke
Yeah, it.
- [11:29]
Mike Lewis
So for the next basically 18 months to two years, I kind of lived in hell, I'll just put it that way. Which was just kind of more. It's almost like I had created the environment that I grew up in. And that's, you know, people, you know, more subconsciously than any, you know, we create the situation that keeps us in our comfort zone, even, you know, albeit a distorted one.
- [11:54]
John Burke
Yeah.
- [11:55]
Mike Lewis
You know, because supposedly that's, you know, where you've always lived. And so anyway.
- [12:02]
John Burke
Well, and sometimes I think people recreate that traumatic childhood subconsciously trying to work it out.
- [12:12]
Mike Lewis
Absolutely.
- [12:13]
John Burke
Yeah. But if you don't realize that you, you keep re. Traumatizing yourself, you just keep pulling the trigger, man.
- [12:19]
Mike Lewis
And, and yeah, and that's exactly what was happening. But. And she had every right to, you know, to put a chair through the wall. Right. And to, you know, to feel the way that she did about me and to say the things that I heard, basically nightmarish, awful things for almost two years. But in my mind I'm like, you deserve it, dude. You stink. You know, you suck. Look at what you've done.
- [12:46]
John Burke
I mean, talking to yourself.
- [12:47]
Mike Lewis
Talking to myself, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
- [12:50]
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- [13:53]
Mike Lewis
You know, it was then that I began to ask myself, John, some, some really hard questions. I can remember standing on the front row at Church. And I'm like, you know, singing praises to the Lord because I was a believer, you know, but it was like, who do you think you are? You're up here singing praises to Jesus and look what you just did, you know, you rotten human, you know, you sinful, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, I'm like, golly, I don't even know who I am really. Why, why would I do that? And then, you know, John, I started, I started, like I said, I started asking myself some really hard questions and I began to look backwards in my, in my history of relationships. And they were a wreck. All of them, pretty much, you know, on the female side. That just terrible. Just, you know, no abuse or anything ugly like that. Nothing outside the decent boundaries. Just dysfunctional though, you know, I might have loved someone, but I had no idea how to love them, right. And so I began to see that. And then all of a sudden I began to see other things further back, like into my childhood, like some of the things that we just covered. And then, you know, the six year old thing, and I'm like, oh, why am I thinking about that? You know, I, that was a long time ago, you know, And I started kind of trying to make excuses and then that's when I started to break out in, into hives just a little bit here and there. And then the divorce began, the proceedings of that and I moved out into a, out of our home, into a one bedroom, crappy apartment with a mattress for my furniture. I was not able to see my kids and tuck them in. Every night.
- [16:02]
John Burke
Yeah, just devastating.
- [16:05]
Mike Lewis
It was not good. And, but I was like, you brought it on yourself, dude. Way to go. And so that began kind of compiling all those ugly things. And as, as it progressed, I ended up with these like quarter size blisters from my ankles to my armpits. Just this raging histamine reaction to the point to where I thought I was going to die. I mean, what is it called when, like when Christ shed drops of blood, sweat, drops of blood, and hematosis, I.
- [16:51]
John Burke
Think, coming out of his skin because of the stress.
- [16:54]
Mike Lewis
Yeah, I think it's called hematosis. And I felt like I was on the verge of that. And so just to kind of insert this, I was digging into the Bible as my refuge. You know, the world, when you're, when you're going through a period of great suffering, I mean, frankly, abject suffering and despair, the world is at the ready, man, to hand out seven ways to numb yourself, right? Oh yeah, you know, pornography Alcohol, drugs, you know, pick your poison. Oh, you know, Mike, you shouldn't be going through this here. The world just wants to basically bury you with its goodwill, which is ill will, unbeknownst to most who turn to that. And I said, absolutely not. I was almost, like, demanding of God, I want to know the truth. I want to know the truth about me. I want to know who I am. I want to know Christ. I want to know you. I want to know nothing but the truth. Everything else, I don't want to have anything to do with. And so, I mean, I. I can't even tell you how long it was before I even got a tv, let alone turned it on. I dug into the Bible, my new King James Version, which I still have from way back when. And ultimately, the. The hives just. They got so bad. Like I said, I. I thought that I was about to. To die. I couldn. I couldn't sleep. I could barely put on clothes because it was just. I was just on fire from the inside out. And so I actually went into an emergency, kind of an urgent care there, and I got into the doctor exam room, and I took my shirt off, and his eyes about popped out of his head. He goes, I have never seen a case of. He said, poison ivy, poison oak or poison sumac.
- [19:00]
Odoo Advertiser
What.
- [19:00]
Mike Lewis
What have you done to yourself, son? And I said, doctor, I haven't been off the blacktop in six months. There's no way, you know. Well, he says, we've got to get you admitted and get you on antibiotics. I'm like, no, no, I'm. I'm not. You know, there's the kind of the Marine attitude, right? I can deal with this. You know, I'm made of steel, right? So I said, just, you know, give me a shot or something, you know, to soothe the pain, something to ease the itching and the burning, and I'm home. So he gave me a shot. I don't know if it was cortisone or a steroid or whatever it was, and a prescription for some stuff that did kind of ease the pain. But as soon as it wore, it was a topical. It was like a vino or something like that. And I ended up. I couldn't even eat. When I got home, I was just so tired, so exhausted, and just fighting this raging war inside of me that I got down on my knees beside my mattress and I put my head on the floor as I had done before. I'd only been living there for a few weeks, though, when this happened. And, you know, I'd only been living in the apartment for a few weeks. And the next thing I know is what our conversation here is really all about. After, After I got down on my knees and I started to pray. I clearly fell asleep, as I had many times, except for this time. All of a sudden I find myself in what I've always described as a cobblestone train station. It's nothing but street pavers, you know, red, red buffalo bricks as my dad used to call him. He was a mason. I learned masonry as a kid. I'm in this cobblestone train station and I'm standing there next to who was my best friend at the time. And I turned to him and I say, steve, wouldn't you love to meet Jesus Christ face to face just once? Just once, man? And right then when I said that, I was instantly transported to this, this amazing meadow. It was. And I was standing at the foot of a body of water that began at my feet and it stretched out and up all the way to the horizon. And on both sides of this body of water was just this amazing green, like perfectly groomed bright pastures. On both sides, just smooth green, illuminated like grass. But I don't know if it was grass or not. And, and, and it was, it was light. There was light everywhere. The whole place was illuminated. There wasn't any kind of shadow. There wasn't anything like that whatsoever. But there, but there was no sun. There wasn't a, you know, a star. There's no sun, there's no moon. It's just daylight, but a very bright, brilliant daylight. And as I, I'm noticing these things and I look down at my feet and this water, it's like alive, but it's like a river, but it's not moving. It's like. I've always referred to it as liquid mercury. If you've seen mercury, liquid mercury, it's shiny and silvery and it doesn't have to move or do anything. But it's like this alive thing, this water. And on, on both sides of the water, kind of what made the banks that held the water in were these perfectly cut, three foot rectangular shaped, excuse me, limestones. And they're all, you know, laid in parallel to one another and perpendicular to the water. And they stretch all the way to the horizon as well. And as my eyes follow them all the way to the horizon, that's when I noticed way, way out there on the horizon. In fact, the horizon seemingly was the curvature of the earth. When I looked to the point to where the water met the sky, you Know, it's. It's kind of like if you stand in a road at the foot of a hill and you look at the road, it kind of narrows as the further away it gets and then it touches the sky. Well, that's what this was like, but it was way out there and I saw this tiny figure and I instantly, in my mind, I mean, I couldn't see who it was, I couldn't see the face. Nothing that would tell me visually, you know, who or what it is. But in my mind I'm like, that's Jesus.
- [23:51]
Odoo Advertiser
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- [24:52]
Mike Lewis
Oh my. It's like you just knew instantly. Instantly. There was no question.
- [24:58]
John Burke
And Mike, is this. So is the vividness or the reality of this the same or different than that? I don't know what you call it. The vision where you're seeing your friend. Was your friend still alive?
- [25:19]
Mike Lewis
Yes, he was. He was still alive. And I've puzzled over that, John, because that beginning and the way this ends, which you'll see, is very similar. But so there's been times when I've thought, well, okay, was that part of this? Was. Was I dreaming? But in my dreams I was saying, I want to meet Jesus. I want to meet him so bad. I mean, my heart just yearned for him.
- [25:49]
John Burke
And did it, did it feel like a dream?
- [25:52]
Mike Lewis
No. No, it didn't. The beginning and the end both were all part of the same experience, I have to say. Excuse me. So, yeah, it's all one experience. And so knowing what dreams are like and how if you're lucky, you can remember three seconds of it and 10 seconds later you're like, oh wait, what was it? You know, it's just gone. It's, it's not part of memory whatsoever. That's what's so amazing about my experience is that it, it was, it was so real that it's, it's like permanently embedded in me, in my, in my memory, in my mind. It's like all the details that I'm going to give, that I've given in, that I'll continue to give, they're as vivid as they were when it occurred 32 years ago when I was 33 years old. It's like it happened an hour ago. It's, it's just crazy how it is, but it's just, that's just the way these things are, you know.
- [26:59]
John Burke
Well, and that is common with near death experiences that they, they, they commonly say when, when they start to remember it, it's like they're re experiencing it and sometimes they get overwhelmed with emotion. But also some, some have told me, you know, what they've realized is it's the memory is not stored in their brain because it physical body, it's stored in their soul.
- [27:24]
Mike Lewis
Soul. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And you know, just a quick comment on the soul I've learned, I think it was one of the many questions that I asked Christ and we'll talk about that. You know, I said that I think I must have asked him 733 and that's a very relevant number. I'll tell you more about that. But that many questions in like a microsecond, a nanosecond, a picosecond, way down the decimal point. Right. And in fact there's no way the physical brain can, can go that fast. There's not here but there, Right, Absolutely. And so, but over time, those questions that I asked that have been answered have kind of been meted out over time to me through scripture study, through, you know, speaking and teaching, whether it's in schools or you know, theological seminary or an orphanage, you know, at the prison that I've ministered to for all these, all those great truths, to all those great answers, they just, it's, it's just been amazing how they have come back to me. But at the right time when I really needed, you know, some, that piece, you know, information and we'll, we'll talk about that.
- [28:42]
John Burke
Well, keep going. I'm sure some of my questions are in those 733, so maybe I can finally get answers Good.
- [28:50]
Mike Lewis
I'm looking forward to it. I love the challenge. So I see this figure, and I instantly know in my mind that's Jesus. And I'm like, as soon as I said that, John, as soon as I said that's Jesus, he starts coming towards me. And I noticed, even at that great distance, I could see that he was wearing a long white garment head to foot, and that he was one foot off of the water and that he is six feet tall. Exactly. And I'm like, well, that's a perfect seven feet. You know, why else, you know, he wouldn't be two inches off the water. He would be one foot because he's six foot, and that makes seven, you know, divine number. Right?
- [29:38]
John Burke
You just knew that.
- [29:39]
Mike Lewis
I did. I just knew that. It just was there.
- [29:42]
John Burke
Interesting.
- [29:43]
Mike Lewis
Yeah. And as he continues towards me, I'm just watching. I'm just transfixed on him. And I start seeing more and more detail. And when he's within 10ft of me, I begin to, like, think, oh, man. Okay, so I am a very rotten human. I do not deserve to be in front of him. I don't want him near me. He shouldn't come near this thing that I am. And I began to feel this amazing love. And the thing that is most profound for me was the level of acceptance that I experienced as it just washed over me and through me. It was. It was exhilarating. It was life changing. It was something. It was at a level that you, we can't experience on. On this earth. You know, I know how you love your children. I know how I love mine, and. And I know how we love our grandchildren and. And my wonderful soulmate. But even that love and that level of acceptance, it's just not possible to exist here in the physical. It can't. And why it can't. That's a whole other conversation. Right? But I know you've heard that. You know, just trying to put it into words is difficult enough. There aren't words. You just have to use what you know. You know, in this physical existence of ours, and the love and acceptance that was washing over me, it just like, it bathed me. It was like baptism, you know, in a way I'd never been baptized before. And. But then again, I started thinking, but my sin, Lord, you know, I was like, but, but, but, but. And he said. I heard him say, in my mind, my work is complete, Michael, and your suffering under the bondage of sin is paid for. And right then, as I was seeing all my sins, like, in a pile, right then I Was thinking about those sins that he had just told me were all washed away. And like he said to the Pharisees, well, like it says in scripture, and Jesus knowing their thoughts. He knew my thoughts. And I saw him tilt his head and he smiled, and he put a vision into my head of me as a child sitting at the dinner table and a loving father sitting across from me. And that child reaches for the salt shaker and on the way, accidentally dumps over his milk on the table. And, you know, that's what you do when you're a kid. It's like, oh, my gosh, I'm in, like, so much trouble. And he laughed. The loving father on the other side laughs and he goes, michael, I've got this. I can't tell you what that felt like. It was so.
- [33:11]
John Burke
It was like Jesus was saying. Was saying, you. You're still trying to focus on your mistakes, your sins, all that. Yeah, but I've got this. I'm like, I'm a good, loving father who. I can clean up your little spill. I've. I've done it. I've paid for it.
- [33:31]
Mike Lewis
Yes. And I. By no stretch am I trying to minimize sin and the power of sin. The wages of sin is death. It was death to my marriage. Yeah, it's proof, folks. Sin is for the wages of sin, of death. But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Right. As the scripture says.
- [33:53]
John Burke
Well, and you know, Mike, I think what. What. What people sometimes don't realize is the way evil works. And I've seen this as a pastor for 30 years.
- [34:04]
Mike Lewis
Oh, yeah.
- [34:05]
John Burke
Evil will take someone's brokenness and wounds not dealt with, pushed down, usually from generation to generation. Yeah. And convince them that if. If. If I use this little boy for my pleasure, he'll never remember. It's okay. You know, it's. It's. It's just. It's not a big deal.
- [34:28]
Mike Lewis
Right.
- [34:28]
John Burke
And so evil use that friend to wound you.
- [34:33]
Mike Lewis
Right.
- [34:33]
John Burke
Then starts to condemn you. Well, it's your fault.
- [34:37]
Odoo Advertiser
You're.
- [34:38]
John Burke
You're horrible.
- [34:39]
Mike Lewis
Oh, boy.
- [34:39]
John Burke
You know, you're. And out of that condemnation, then suggests, just like you said, what? Well, here's a path to ease that pain. And starts to steer you down paths.
- [34:50]
Mike Lewis
Oh, yeah.
- [34:51]
John Burke
That then cause more damage and destruction. And the reason I point that out is because, you know, God does not condemn us. You know, Romans 8:1 says, there is no condemnation.
- [35:03]
Mike Lewis
Therefore now, no condemnation, no condemnation for.
- [35:06]
John Burke
Those in Christ Jesus.
- [35:07]
Mike Lewis
Amen.
- [35:08]
John Burke
And so, you know, when we do wrong, you're right. There are consequences. God just wants us to turn back to him for forgiveness. And he's. He's already paid for it. We're forgiven. He doesn't want us to live in that shame and condemnation.
- [35:24]
Mike Lewis
No, no.
- [35:25]
John Burke
And I think, you know, that was probably a bit of what he was.
- [35:28]
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- [36:31]
Mike Lewis
Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, again, I. Like I said, I don't want to minimize sin. But, but in that moment, in that moment, John, it was as, as I experienced that and him, just the combination of all that going on at that very moment. First of all, I began to realize, or at least I felt like I was the only. He made me feel like I was the only person that that existed or like ever existed. It's a crazy feeling. It was absolutely unbelievable, but yet very believable because it was so true. That's how great his power is. His power, the power of Christ is so beyond our comprehension that he can make all 8 plus billion humans on this earth. And there's probably more to come before it's all over. He has the power to enable each and every single one of us to feel like we're the only thing that matters to him. How about that?
- [37:43]
John Burke
It's amazing.
- [37:44]
Mike Lewis
It's amazing.
- [37:46]
John Burke
And I've heard that, I've heard that so many times.
- [37:48]
Mike Lewis
Oh really?
- [37:50]
John Burke
Well, yeah.
- [37:50]
Mike Lewis
Really?
- [37:51]
John Burke
Yeah, yeah.
- [37:52]
Mike Lewis
It's so true.
- [37:53]
John Burke
And, and it's. I had not really thought of that until I could kept hearing again and again, near death experiencers saying almost verbatim what you just said, wow, what, what did, what did Jesus look like? Was he. I'll show you like a, like a man.
- [38:13]
Mike Lewis
So I'm, I'm kind of a, an amateur, maybe even a novice in my studies. And speaking about the Shroud of Turin. Oh, I, I will tell you from my own personal experience and knowing what I know, especially after Segundo Pia in 1898 took the first black and white photograph of the Shroud. He. He nearly dropped the plates when he developed them in his dark room. Because what was on his plate was not a negative. It was a positive because the image on the shroud is a negative. Now go figure that one out. You know, the Stirp guys, they could not figure that out. All these scientists. Right. John Jackson, whom I've, I've spoken with actually out in Colorado. But I'll, I'll tell you, I don't want to digress. Here, here, here is. This is who I saw. That is a, that is a, an artist. That is a painting, a drawing over the image that's on the Shroud of Turin. You can see some of the, some of the telltale that, you know, like the blood stains from the crown of thorns that are on the shroud in the rivulet right here.
- [39:28]
John Burke
Right.
- [39:28]
Mike Lewis
That, that is, that is who I was standing in front of. I saw him. And no one will ever change my mind. It's.
- [39:36]
John Burke
Well, you know what's so fascinating, Mike, is I, I did another podcast with a friend of mine who had a near death experience. She was Jewish, she grew up Jewish in an atheist home where her dad every night told her, you're, there is no God, your life is worthless. Jesus Christ is a hoax.
- [39:58]
Mike Lewis
Right. I saw that one. I watched that one.
- [40:02]
John Burke
And she, and she said that when she saw the most recent. So, you know, I talked about the most recent evidence of the Shroud of Turin.
- [40:15]
Mike Lewis
Yeah.
- [40:16]
John Burke
You know, because I had, I had, I dismissed it because. Well, because they had carbon dated it to the 1500s.
- [40:25]
Mike Lewis
Yeah, yeah.
- [40:26]
John Burke
But.
- [40:26]
Mike Lewis
But what has been 98 and 1326. Some. Something like that Right in between there.
- [40:32]
John Burke
Is that right? Yeah, it was. Yeah. So what, what they've recently discovered is that, you know, there was a fire and you can see the burn marks.
- [40:41]
Mike Lewis
Oh, yeah.
- [40:42]
John Burke
And when they sampled the cloth, they sampled it, they've realized from what's been basically nuns repaired some of the burns on the edges.
- [40:58]
Mike Lewis
Yeah.
- [40:59]
John Burke
And so they were sampling cloth from the time of that fire. So they've sampled other bits of the cloth and it went back to the first century.
- [41:07]
Mike Lewis
Yep, yep. Ray Rogers, who used to be one of the biggest protagonists of the authenticity of the Shroud, later, before, as he was dying of cancer, he rescinded all that he said. And he proved through some electron microscopy that those edges contained cotton in them and that those had been instead of linen, instead of flax. Yeah. The herringbone weave and the material being flax, that the shroud versus.
- [41:41]
John Burke
Yes.
- [41:42]
Mike Lewis
Cotton didn't exist back then. Yeah. And. And not only was there cotton, but he showed where it interrupted at the edges of the herringbone. It interrupted the weave and said that they had been rewoven into.
- [41:55]
John Burke
Well, and the other thing is that they don't. We do not have a technology that can produce a, like you said, that image, a three dimension with three dimensional information.
- [42:09]
Mike Lewis
Yes. From the inside out and it analyzer that. Right.
- [42:14]
John Burke
Yeah.
- [42:14]
Mike Lewis
When John.
- [42:15]
John Burke
So anyway, we could, we could geek out on this, but.
- [42:17]
Mike Lewis
Oh my God.
- [42:19]
John Burke
What I find though, so fascinating is I just see God just kind of like pouring on the evidence for anybody who really wants to see.
- [42:30]
Mike Lewis
Yes.
- [42:31]
John Burke
In, in our day and age. It's like he is pouring out like, you want more? Okay, here's more, here's more. And I think as evil is increasing its destructive, you know, attack and trying to turn people away from God. Like God's going, okay, here's more, here's more.
- [42:52]
Mike Lewis
Yeah, but he doesn't ever counter attack, kind of.
- [42:54]
John Burke
Yeah, but he doesn't ever overwhelm our free will. If we really, if we really don't want him, we don't want to know. There's plenty of things to go. Yeah, well, what about this? What about this?
- [43:07]
Mike Lewis
What about skeptic? Right. I've often said it's easy to be a skeptic. All you have to do is not know anything about the subject. Right.
- [43:16]
John Burke
Well. And you know, I've always said there are two kinds of. There's two kinds of skepticism. There's a skepticism where you're like, you know, I want to understand. I don't want to just blindly believe. And I think that's healthy. You know, it's like doubting Thomas. It's, you know, he healthily, you know, Jesus, didn't. You know, you're, you're such a bad person because you, you, you doubted. There's, there's skepticism that will believe if it's given evidence.
- [43:42]
Mike Lewis
Right.
- [43:42]
John Burke
But there's skepticism that just wants to find reasons to already confirm what they already believe.
- [43:49]
Mike Lewis
Yes.
- [43:50]
John Burke
That's, that's cynicism. That's a whole different thing. Yes. Anyway, we Digress. And is Jesus, he's. Is he wearing a robe or what's he.
- [43:59]
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- [45:02]
Mike Lewis
That's a great question. I thought it was at first, when I first looked out to the horizon and saw him. And as he got closer and closer and closer, like even when he was within 10ft of me, when things began to really happen, you know, I was still kind of just seeing it as a garment. I always call it a garment. But as he got closer because he got within three feet of me and that's when we really began to communicate. But before that, as he was moving from about 10ft to within my body space, I noticed that he was wearing a garment of light. It looked like a white robe from way out. But as he got close to me, I could see. I've said this over and over again in my mind and to the few people that I've shared this with, it was like his garment was made of trillions of tiny little light particles, each one possessing every light of the known electromagnetic spectrum. You know, the seven colors of the rainbow and then some. I don't even know what the colors were, but I was like, that is not cloth. And I'm like, well, yeah, you're, you're not on earth right now, dude. It's light. I was like, just, it's just an incredible thing, you know, it's kind of like when you're thinking about something and the light bulb comes on, you know, it's like, wow, he's, he's, you know, Wearing a garment of light. How do you do that? You know?
- [46:42]
John Burke
Well, and, you know. You know, I don't want to keep interrupting, but it's so amazing to me because a Jewish woman in Australia described the same thing, and she didn't even know he was Jesus. She just knew he. She knew he was a man or with all the wisdom of the universe. And she said, I could just sit at his feet forever. And she said, but what was amazing is he was wearing a garment woven of light. And I just kept thinking, how can a garment be woven of light?
- [47:15]
Mike Lewis
Yeah.
- [47:16]
John Burke
Isn't that wild?
- [47:17]
Mike Lewis
Yes. That's awesome to hear. I didn't. I've never heard that. I've never. I've never heard that in all the NDE books I've read.
- [47:26]
John Burke
Well, and there's. There's a scripture that's. That talks about how God wears. He wears a garment of light.
- [47:33]
Mike Lewis
Wow.
- [47:33]
John Burke
I mean it.
- [47:34]
Mike Lewis
Yeah.
- [47:35]
John Burke
I'm not sure if it's Job or. Yeah. Clothed in light.
- [47:39]
Mike Lewis
Clothed in light. Absolutely, he is.
- [47:43]
John Burke
Well, keep going. I don't want to keep interrupting.
- [47:45]
Mike Lewis
No, you interrupt as much as you want. This is. This is your show, man. And so. So I'm looking at him, and after he puts that vision of the loving father with the little kid who, you know, made the mistake of dumping their milk and that. It's. You know, it's okay, Mike. I've got this. And I know this might sound, you know. You're a preacher. Teacher. I'm an ordained Christian minister as well. I preach and teach mainly in a prison. But I'm going to say this. And because at this moment, it was like. At that moment, it was like I could see that it felt like sin didn't exist anymore. And because Christ paid for it with his life, you know, with his. With his suffering, it's paid for all sin, past, present, future, done. He's not going to do it again, you know, And. And that was going through my mind, and. And it was. I think that's divine knowledge. You know, I didn't possess that. I just was able to see that. And it's mankind that keeps sin alive. Right. You know, which is awful. But we do. I mean, because of our fallen nature. It's unfortunate is no excuse, but that fallen nature is, you know, the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak, you know, as the scripture says. So I felt that. And that's when I began to realize fully that he and I were communicating without saying a word. And I can tell you, I had never thought of this. I Wouldn't think ever. Even though I was really digging into the Bible cover to cover a couple of times prior to this happening. I mean, I was going through it so fast, I mean like in two weeks, because I had it on cassette, I'd go through the Old and New Testament, all 66 books, 39 and 27, from Genesis to Revelation in just a matter of a few weeks. So I had already been through it a couple of times and I, I just knew that my, my sins had been forgiven and I had not ever read or even had any thought that the language in heaven is thought through. All of the studying that I had done, I had not ever come across that. And maybe it's in there and I just blasted by it really quick. But I began to think after my near death experience, just in the days right after I began to think about that and I was like, wow. So the language in heaven is thought. It's a thought language. There's no dialect, there's no. Because if there was dialect, it creates division. Well, I speak English well, I speak Russian well, I speak this, this, blah blah, blah, all the, I don't know, thousand languages of the planet. But in heaven there's one thought and it's instant. When you think of something to ask him, the thought is instant, his read is instant and his response is instant. In fact, it seemed like, you know, being kind of computer geeks as we are, it was like with an ever increasing baud rate that we began to communicate. And it was so fast and so just voluminous that again, in our physical brain, in our physical existence, I mean we can think things pretty quick, you know, in a five minute conversation. I've heard it said that 400 different things, thoughts can go through a person's mind. While it was way beyond that because of just how it is now. You know, people say, oh, telepathy, I don't care, you know what folks want to label it as? All I know is that we were communicating and the lips weren't moving because think about it, you know my definition. Using one word to describe one thing in our language can be something completely different in another language. But everybody's looking at a cow. But the way your language and word describes that cow can be, have different, you know, subtle differences to it. Whereas if everybody of all these different languages are looking at a cow, what are they thinking? Cow. I see it. You know, the image is a cow. They're not thinking the word that describes it. So anyway, that's how thought language works in heaven. It's instant. And it's. You can go as fast as you want because Jesus can keep right up. I mean, he was like, is that all you got, Mike? Give it all to me, man. I'll answer it all, you know.
- [52:48]
John Burke
Well, you know what's fascinating is some. It seems like some people like immediately, it's like questions and answers. But others, and I'm asking, maybe it's like you start to get it. Like, I can ask a question, he'll answer right away. I can ask another. I can ask another. And then it. And then it, like you were saying, increases the baud rate.
- [53:10]
Mike Lewis
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It was like, it got. It got so fast. It was like this amazing download of a Cray supercomputer, man. I mean, we had one at Boeing. It was what we used for a flight test. And it just kept getting faster and faster, and I was loving it. I was like, man, this is amazing. I'm loving this. And it just got to the point to where I just didn't want it to end because just he is the source, right? I mean, everything is. Is right in front of me and. And I'm tapped into it. In fact, I've said to. To my wife many times, it's like, eventually it got to the point to where it was like my mind was resided in his and his was in mine, you know? I mean, it really felt that way. It got to the point to where it was. It was like this interconnectivity that was just getting tighter and tighter and broader and faster, and I didn't want it to end. And the next thing I know, in my experience, as we're communicating like this, he comes over to my left and lowers his right hand. And I instantly reached down and grabbed it. And when I grabbed his hand, I looked down because I was thinking, I wonder if we're going to float above the water like he did when he came here. And I looked down and we are. We're both a foot off the water, and I'm like looking right through my feet. It's like I'm looking right through my feet and I'm looking right through the water. I'm looking right through this. This liquid mercury, this. This gold silver river. I'm looking right through it, and it's like the universe is there or below it or. I don't know. I just. I looked into infinity or something. When I looked straight down, I looked right through our feet, right through the river. Right?
- [55:13]
John Burke
What do you. What do you mean? What are you seeing?
- [55:15]
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- [56:16]
Mike Lewis
Just. It was transparent, I guess. You know, I was expecting to kind of see, you know, like a river of water or you know, a solid that would reflect, you know, like normal, like here. But I. Instead I looked right, I just looked right through it and it was like looking into space. You know, you look up at night.
- [56:38]
John Burke
And all you like with stars and galaxies and.
- [56:41]
Mike Lewis
Yes.
- [56:42]
John Burke
And you could see that through the water.
- [56:44]
Mike Lewis
Yeah.
- [56:45]
John Burke
How fascinating.
- [56:46]
Mike Lewis
Yeah, it was crazy, but it was what I saw, you know, it's. It's what I saw. And then instantly when I grabbed his, his right hand with my left, as soon as I grabbed that and looked down, we were both a foot off the water and we started to go, to go forward and right, right across the water, right towards the, the curvature of the earth, right towards the horizon where the water met the sky, where he came from. We're headed there. And as we're going along, I mean, it began to speed up actually. And I always say this happened at about halfway, I'm guessing, because the distance, I don't know. I can't really quantify it.
- [57:38]
John Burke
Did you have a sense of where you were going or why?
- [57:43]
Mike Lewis
I had a sense that I'm going with him back to where he came from, wherever that was like going to heaven, I think. So I, I was in, I was kind of in heaven or, or, you know, 2nd Corinthians 12:2, where Paul talks about. I knew a man about 14 years ago, was taken up into the third heaven, into paradise. That's, that's where I think I was.
- [58:07]
John Burke
That's, you know what's interesting though. And again, I don't want to digress too much, but I find that some near death experiencers have an encounter and it's not too heaven, but sometimes Jesus calls it the waiting room. And they call it a room of light with insubstantial walls. Others, they find themselves in the galaxies in outer space, right? And then he says, you can come on with me to heaven or you can go back. And I wonder sometimes, even as you described that it made me wonder like, is this something that he kind of, it's kind of like he's, he's creating this, he's materializing this, this pathway to heaven for you. The reason I say that is because there's this other guy, this neurologist who is being stabbed to death, sees what he called this infinite corridor of light and boom, God's there from wherever he came from, you know, And I don't know, I just ponder, wondering. So I wonder if, I almost wonder if like he was like, okay, we're going, let's. He's taking you to heaven.
- [59:28]
Mike Lewis
He knew I wanted to go. He knew I wanted to go. Because, you know, like I said right before I knelt down before my mattress that night, I. I felt like I was going to die. And in ways, John, I kind of wanted to. I was like, done. I'm like, I was at that point of like, just total exasperation with like everything in my life.
- [59:53]
John Burke
Well, and you know what, you know what's so amazing is that your sin and the condemnation and shame you were feeling and all that stuff from all those years building up was literally killing your body.
- [60:07]
Mike Lewis
It was.
- [60:10]
John Burke
And what Jesus showed you is all these things in a pile that have now just been wiped away from the. As far as the east is from the west.
- [60:19]
Mike Lewis
Oh, that's a great analogy.
- [60:21]
John Burke
Well, so as you're going along this, is that when you're having these questions and answers downloading.
- [60:30]
Mike Lewis
No, that kind of ended when I, when he came to my left. I think he, you know, Christ seemed to me that he was kind of good with where we were at, I think, or something, because he comes to.
- [60:45]
John Burke
Me, I'd be like, hey, I just got 733 questions. I just got started.
- [60:50]
Mike Lewis
Yeah, really?
- [60:54]
John Burke
Were you able to bring any of that back? Because I know many times people say I knew these answers, but I, but he didn't. He veiled it. I wasn't allowed to bring it back.
- [61:04]
Mike Lewis
One of the things, one of the questions I remember that came Back to me later, was, okay, what runs this miracle machine called the body? Is it the brain? Is it the heart? Is it a combination of the two? He said, no, it's your soul, Michael. He says, the body, the flesh, is weak. It's. It's powerless unless the soul inhabits it. And he was like, show me a body without a soul, and I'll show you a dead body. Right? And I was like, yeah, but the brain. And he kind of inferred that the brain is kind of like a cpu. It's like a computer. The soul is the operating system. It tells the brain how to make your kidneys function and how to make your liver filter your blood and your bile creation and marrow in the bones and red blood cells and white blood, cel and thrombocytes, urethracytes. Right. All leukocytes, all the above, you know, miracle machine. So, of course, it takes something incredibly powerful to run this miracle machine. And also, it shows not only how powerful the soul is in that respect, John. It has the ability, the knowledge, the wisdom to run the. To run the body. It also has the power to live for eternity. That's kind of a powerful thing, you know, I'm just saying, you know, so.
- [62:39]
John Burke
Yeah, that's. That's. Well, I've always. I've always wondered, you know, like, our soul seems to be the. Almost like the energy that forms the physical body around us continually. And. And I've. And I've pointed it, you know, to the reality that our. Our cells are being there. Our cells are dying and being repl. Cells all the time. People don't realize this, but 10 years from now, you are not the same body you were 10 years ago.
- [63:10]
Mike Lewis
Very different.
- [63:11]
John Burke
All your cells have been replaced.
- [63:13]
Mike Lewis
Absolutely.
- [63:14]
John Burke
So what keeps you being you.
- [63:18]
Mike Lewis
Right.
- [63:19]
John Burke
Well, or. Or even, like, I've wondered, and I don't know if this is true, but. Like phantom pain, like when someone loses a leg.
- [63:25]
Mike Lewis
My sister has lost her leg.
- [63:28]
John Burke
Oh, I'm so sorry.
- [63:29]
Mike Lewis
And I have a marine friend that lost both of his above the knee.
- [63:34]
John Burke
Well. And you know that they experience it.
- [63:36]
Mike Lewis
They experience.
- [63:37]
John Burke
And the problem is they still feel that their leg is there, even though it's not physically there.
- [63:43]
Mike Lewis
Yeah.
- [63:44]
John Burke
And there's pain.
- [63:45]
Mike Lewis
That's pretty amazing. Yeah, that's.
- [63:47]
John Burke
And I wondered the same thing. Like, is that the soul saying something's wrong? I don't know. You know, I mean, so we're.
- [63:55]
Mike Lewis
Excuse me. So we're. We're traveling at a never increasing rate again. Kind of like the baud rate thing. We're speeding up and speeding up and speeding up. And we're at what I always said, we're about halfway. And something catches the corner of my eye and I turn and look. And when I turn to my right and look, it's. It's the beautiful blue marble of the Earth. Like you would see it from space. Like we've seen from, you know, the astronauts taking photographs, looking back at the Earth on the way to the moon and others just in orbit and stuff. And I see that and I kind of. You know how you kind of squint? I kind of did that and that. I. All of a sudden I'm seeing buildings and cars and people and streets and sidewalks and telephone poles and bridges. And I'm like. I say in my mind, oh, look, Lord, it's the Earth. And John, right when I said that, I was instantly back in that train station, the cobblestone train station where it all began. And I looked to my left because I'm like. I'm wanting to see him. Like, okay, this had to be real. I know it's real. Where's Jesus? I turn to my left. Excuse me. And when I do that, when I turn left, I'm looking in the window just, oh, probably 20 yards away. I'm looking in the. In the first story window of a. Of a hospital or a clinic or something. I'm looking right through the window into a patient's room. And the patient there. There is a. Would appear to be a doctor at the foot and a doctor at the head, both wearing long white garments. I've since then, kind of changed my perception on. On those two individuals. I don't think they were doctors. I think they were angels. I think. I think they were my guardian angels. My wife says I've retired about 10 because of the dumb things I've done in my past.
- [66:04]
John Burke
They just gave up.
- [66:05]
Mike Lewis
Oh, yeah. They're like, okay, I'm out. Okay. Somebody take this dude, will ya? You know, like. Like when I look down at my speedometer on my. My superbike, and it says 181. And I thought, you know, I should probably slow down. I'm on a highway here.
- [66:20]
John Burke
Oh, my gosh.
- [66:24]
Mike Lewis
Yeah, one of those. So I'm looking in the window and I see these two very tall figures that looked like physicians in long, you know, kind of those white smocks that they wear, but they were taller. And so, like I said, I've kind of changed my perception on that. And as I'm. As I'm looking in that window just then the physician or the person at the foot pulls the sheet over the body of the person in the bed. And in my mind I think I say that person's dead. Right. When I do that, the person in the bed raises up at the waist, sits up in bed, the sheet slides down, they turn and look at me and it was me. It was me that, that was. I was the dead person in there. Wow. Right then I woke up on the floor. It's 3:30 in the morning. When I looked at my digital clock. 3:33 to be exact.
- [67:40]
John Burke
Interesting.
- [67:41]
Mike Lewis
I'm on the floor still. My legs are asleep, I can barely get off of them. And when you have a mattress for your bed, it's about that high off the floor. I just rolled into bed just right off the floor.
- [67:55]
John Burke
How long had it been since you.
- [68:00]
Mike Lewis
I got down on my knees right around 9:30. That's about when I was, would go to bed. It's still, I still go to bed about that time, about nine.
- [68:07]
John Burke
So it'd been about six hours or so.
- [68:09]
Mike Lewis
Yeah. And like I said I was. I could have been asleep for a while before. I don't know, maybe after, for a while.
- [68:19]
John Burke
But so cure. You know, I'm so curious because so many of the, of the details of what you were describing in the near death experience, even, even like when you turned and looked at the, the earth.
- [68:34]
Mike Lewis
Yes.
- [68:35]
John Burke
And it was like you could zoom in, you had telescopic vision. That's another, that's another commonality or this, this idea of what I think was Jesus prayer, his last night on earth, that they might, that they might be one. Even as you are in me, Father, and I am in you, may they be in us. You know, or like when Paul says we have the mind of Christ. That experience of. Because I've heard that often that it was like Jesus was in me and I was in him and there was this oneness even though we were still separate.
- [69:07]
Mike Lewis
Right.
- [69:07]
John Burke
So all those, all those things like line up. The interesting, different thing to me is this, I don't know what to call it. Almost like this vision. So what do you think that, what do you think that beginning and ending part was about?
- [69:28]
Mike Lewis
Well, the beginning is where the first things out of my mouth, I'm in the purest part of my heart and soul and mind and strength, which is what Christ says is the first commandment. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul and with all thy mind, with all thy strength. This is the first commandment. The second is likened Unto it. Love thy neighbor as thyself. There's another reason to know yourself.
- [69:55]
John Burke
If you hate yourself, you're gonna not love your neighbor very well.
- [69:59]
Mike Lewis
You're gonna hate your neighbor too, probably.
- [70:01]
John Burke
Yeah.
- [70:02]
Mike Lewis
So. Yeah. So that was me earnestly, honestly saying in my heart of hearts, Jesus, I want to know you. I was seeking him. And I was. Every time I opened the scripture, every time I hit play on the cassette player in my car when I was traveling, you know, across the country for business or whatever. So that's that piece. The other piece is even more dramatic later because that told me that the old mic is dead. He's gone. He's been put to death. Right. God put a bullet in my ego.
- [70:44]
John Burke
Right.
- [70:45]
Mike Lewis
Basically because a few days later, John, there were some railroad tracks near where I lived at the time. And I started going out on the tracks and just following them and just praying and meditating as I walked. I found myself coming around the bend and in this wooded area was an old cemetery. And it had. It was so old that it had limestone headstones. And if you've ever seen really old limestone headstones, they fade with time. And some of the letters kind of blackened. I don't know if it's a form of fungus or an algae that grows on it, but it does. And so I stepped off the track and walked into this small cemetery and I continued to pray. And a voice said, turn around.
- [71:45]
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- [72:46]
Mike Lewis
I just heard it in. In my mind. I turned around and there was a gravestone and the last and the only name on it was Lewis. That's my last name. So that was like I had in my NDE experience. I saw that my old self was gone. And then in my physical, conscious mind in life, I saw, maybe I'm drawing a conclusion because I want to, but I saw the name Lewis on that headstone when I turned around, and it was just kind of more confirmation, you know, Jesus saying, okay, Mike, just so you're sure about this, you know, you're, you know, the old guy is gone.
- [73:34]
John Burke
I've died. And now so it's no longer I who live, for my old self has been crucified with.
- [73:43]
Mike Lewis
I am crucified with.
- [73:45]
John Burke
Christ lives in me.
- [73:46]
Mike Lewis
I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me. And the life I now live, I live by the faith in the Son of God who loves me and gave himself for me.
- [73:55]
John Burke
Galatians 2:20.
- [73:57]
Mike Lewis
Amen, brother.
- [73:59]
John Burke
Yeah. Yeah, it's beautiful. I mean, and, and, and it's, and it's hard to understand if you haven't gone through it, that the dying to self is actually the path to life. It's the, it's the path to freedom. It's the path to peace and hope and joy. And that don't just come from your circumstances or you're trying harder. They come from the Lord.
- [74:25]
Mike Lewis
Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, John, before, Before you and I, you know, had had this conversation, I thought, okay, if John asked me to summarize in one sentence what I learned through my whole experience prior to the nde, during and after, how would I summarize that? And I wrote it down, but I don't even have to look at it. Abject suffering led me to true salvation.
- [75:02]
John Burke
Well, I hope you enjoyed our conversation. We covered a lot of thoughts and ideas, but the most important that I really want to drive home is this. Romans 8:1. So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. You see, no matter what you've done, no matter what's been done to you, don't believe the lies that you're too dirty, you're too far gone, and let those keep steering you away from connection to God's spirit. You know, that's what happened to me when I was a new follower of Jesus. I kept screwing up. I mean, I was in a lot of bad habits. And I would, you know, swear that I would stop. But what I would hear every time I did it is that man, you're such a screw up. God doesn't want to hear from you until you can get your act together or you've had too many strikes, buddy. You know, God. God is disgusted with you. But here's what that does, is it drives you away from the very one who can help you grow and change and evil lies about how God feels about you for this very reason to get you to stay away from God. But here's the reality. He will never leave you. But if we don't understand this, and we don't understand, you know, what, what Jesus showed and said to Mike, we get on this, on this sixth cycle, you know, and this is what would happen to me. I would want to do God's will, and I would vow that I would do better. And then I'd screw up again, and I'd feel shame and condemnation, and I would vow to try even harder. And I would try harder, and eventually I'd fail again. And then I felt even more condemnation, which drove me further away from God. I thought he didn't want to hear from me, so I would just kind of ignore him, which only made me keep on that cycle, screwing up even more. And you know what, you guys, Paul, the writer of the New Testament, of a lot of it, understood this. You know, right before he says there's no condemnation. Look at what he admits. He understands what we've been through in Romans, chapter seven, starting in verse 15. I don't really understand myself for what I want for I want to do what is right, but I don't do it. Instead, I do what I hate. Oh, what a miserable person I am who will free me from this life that's dominated by sin and death. See, we get in these habits. We get in habits of learning a certain way, living a certain way, disconnected from God's spirit. And those habits literally get established in our flesh. That's what the Bible calls it, in our bodies. Right? Your body keeps track.
- [77:59]
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- [77:59]
John Burke
It really has a memory of a lot of things. You know, my philosophy professor, when I. When I was doing my master's degree, Dr. J.P. morland had a great analogy. He said, it's like a bad golf swing. I don't play much golf, but when I do, I slice regularly. And you don't want to do that if you don't know about golf. And if I just do my natural thing because I learned golf the wrong way and that. That got sewn into my body, my body remembers how to slice. I don't even have to try, which would be great if golf were scored by the highest number of strokes, but it's not right. So to develop A righteous golf swing, all right? In other words, a right swing that allows me to hit it where I want, right down the, the middle of the fairway. I have to practice new habits until they get sewn into my body or established in my mind and my body. And that's exactly the same as it is with, right, living with, living according to God's loving will and ways. You know, we get in these bad habits, they don't just stop automatically, you know, when you decide you're going to follow Christ, they automatically keep reminding you of those old things. So your temper just flares, you just get impatient, your eyes just look, your mind just goes there, your impulses just react because it's all sewn into your body. But just like a bad golf swing, that too can change. And here's where it starts. Paul goes on in Romans, chapter seven. The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus, why he did this. It goes on to say, so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us. In other words, we could fulfill the intent of the don't do this, do that. Those who no longer follow our, our sinful nature, in other words, no longer follow the way our bodies got wired, but instead we follow the Spirit. So in other words, don't let failure and, and sin, even though you may keep doing it, don't let it drive you away from God, whose spirit can help you actually develop a new swing. See, he's like, he's like the life coach who wants to help you develop a new swing, new spiritual habits as you follow him daily. And when you understand how he feels about you, even when you fail, you'll get up again, grab his hand and keep failing forward and you'll grow. See, here's the amazing truth that Mike experienced. Ephesians, chapter 1, verses 4 and 5. Even before he made the world, God loved us. God loved you and chose you in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. God decided in advance to adopt us, to adopt you into his own family. I mean, it's incredible, isn't it? And here's the thing, you guys, it was true for Mike before the near death experience, and it's true for you. Jesus has already paid to wash, clean anyone who wants it. He makes us holy. Holy just means set apart. So we're not the same. We're set apart for God, for God's family. And he sees us now without fault. He sees you as blameless and without fault. Now it doesn't mean you are blameless and without fault. I'm not blameless and without fault. What you have to understand is if you've ever just turned your heart to God and told him, you know, I want your love, I want your forgiveness. I want what Jesus did to count for me. Well, it does. It's done. Just like Jesus told Mike. It's already been done. You know, you. You don't have to keep pain and so we don't need to keep stuck in our sins or our regrets, staying stuck in the past. It's been paid in full. You owe nothing. If you've accepted what Christ did for you, the only thing you owe is the debt of love to follow the One who loves you most day by day and he'll never turn away from you. And he loves you like crazy. So stay connected to God's spirit daily, just like we talked about at the end of the last episode. And he, like a good coach, will help you develop new habits and grow into the person you were intended to be. It's amazing to think about. God really doesn't hold stuff against you, so do life with Him. It's the best way to live well. If you've enjoyed this episode, please share any of these episodes with others that you think will be helped by them. And if you want to go deeper, you know to see of the about 1500 near death experiences I've studied and how they the commonalities of them align with the Bible, go check out the Imagine Heaven audiobook. Until next time, be blessed.