The Dark Side of NDEs: Terror, Rescue, and Redemption

Summary

Imagine Heaven Podcast with John Burke

Episode: The Dark Side of NDEs: Terror, Rescue, and Redemption
Release Date: March 26, 2025

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Introduction: Exploring the Abyss of Near-Death Experiences

In this compelling episode of the Imagine Heaven Podcast, host John Burke delves into the unsettling realm of hellish near-death experiences (NDEs). Building on his expertise as the author of the New York Times bestseller Imagine Heaven, Burke seeks to understand the prevalence of terrifying NDEs and their implications on faith, science, and the mystery of the afterlife.

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Personal Accounts: Descent into Darkness

Howard Storm's Descent into Hell (00:47 - 05:21) Howard Storm, a former atheist and tenured college professor, recounts his harrowing NDE triggered by a severe medical emergency in France. Initially confident that death was "unplugging a computer," Howard finds himself plunging "lower and lower into nothingness" [00:47]. His descent is marked by intense anxiety and pain, aligning with the biblical concept of hell. At [01:40], he expresses a profound sense of abandonment: "It's almost like there's an absence of hope, there's an absence of love, it's the absence of God."

Paul Ojeda's Struggle in the Abyss (05:21 - 31:09) Paul Ojeda shares his vivid encounter with malevolent beings in a gray, featureless void. Despite heightened senses and initial feelings of vitality, Paul quickly confronts the brutal reality of a hellish realm. At [10:39], he describes his torment: "They were taking pieces of me... the most horrific prison scene imaginable, only worse." Paul's resistance through prayer marks a pivotal moment in his experience, highlighting the power of faith even in extreme despair.

Penny Whitbrodt's Torturous Journey (25:51 - 30:24) Penny Whitbrodt’s NDE begins with peaceful moments next to her sister’s car but soon devolves into a nightmarish descent through a black tunnel. By [30:24], Penny realizes her presence in hell: "I know I've died and I'm going to hell." Her struggle symbolizes the inner turmoil and self-justification that can lead individuals into spiritual darkness.

Additional Testimonies: Randy and Erica's Horrors (43:36 - 64:46) Randy, a CEO, and Erica, a nurse, provide further accounts of their encounters with demonic entities and unimaginable suffering. Randy describes a race against eternal damnation, culminating in a dramatic rescue by what he believes to be Jesus riding a white horse [57:37]. Erica’s experience involves gruesome assaults by demonic figures until a divine intervention calls her back, reinforcing the theme of redemption.

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Analysis: Prevalence and Implications of Hellish NDEs (31:09 - 78:23)

Prevalence of Hellish NDEs John Burke explores the statistics surrounding hellish NDEs, citing varied studies. While Dr. Long suggests less than 2% of NDEs are terrifying, other sources like the Handbook of Near Death Experiences report up to 23% of experiences being distressing. Burke emphasizes the likelihood of underreporting due to shame and trauma [10:39].

Theological Insights: Choice and Free Will Burke discusses the theological implications, asserting that hell was not created for humans but for fallen angels who chose to reject God’s love. He references C.S. Lewis, stating, “There are only two kinds of people in the end. Those who say to God, thy will be done and those to whom God says, in the end thy will be done” [62:53]. This underscores the belief that hell is a result of personal choice rather than divine punishment.

God’s Mercy and the Power of Prayer A recurring theme is the transformative power of prayer and turning back to God. Experienced NDErs like Howard Storm and Penny Whitbrodt recount moments of desperation leading to divine intervention. At [65:21], Burke highlights how calling out to God results in rescue: “When people call out to God for forgiveness, Jesus rescues them.”

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Redemption Stories: From Darkness to Light (78:23 - 82:24)

Transformative Journeys The episode underscores the profound changes individuals undergo after experiencing hellish NDEs. Figures like Paul Ojeda, Howard Storm, and Santosh transition from fear and despair to dedicated faith and service. Their testimonies illustrate the redemptive path available to all, regardless of past beliefs or actions.

Scriptural Parallels John Burke draws parallels between NDE testimonies and Biblical scriptures, such as the Parable of the Prodigal Son and passages from Revelation. These connections reinforce the notion that divine love and redemption are accessible to all who seek them, echoing the universal message of forgiveness and eternal life.

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Conclusion: Embracing Choice and Divine Love

John Burke concludes by emphasizing that hellish NDEs serve as a stark reminder of the choices individuals make regarding their relationship with God. He reassures listeners that God’s mercy offers a pathway out of fear and condemnation through sincere repentance and faith. The episode encourages embracing God’s love and making conscious choices toward goodness to ensure a place in eternal heaven rather than fearing hell.

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Notable Quotes

• John Burke [00:00]: "Do people have hellish near death experiences? And if so, how prevalent are they?"
• Howard Storm [00:47]: "I'm now down, descending lower and lower into nothingness. And I just keep falling and falling and falling."
• Penny Whitbrodt [00:54]: "It feels like somebody grabs me and drops me in this outer darkness and I start racing down this black tunnel."
• Kyle Hubbard [01:16]: "One study done of people who reported near death experiences and 23% actually had hellish experiences."
• John Burke [10:39]: "But if near death experiencers are telling us the truth, that is the most deceptive lie you could ever swallow."
• Randy [57:37]: "He was so loving and kind and merciful that he rescues them."
• John Burke [69:15]: "Jesus is running to you like that and he embraces you when you turn back to him."
• John Burke [82:24]: "We have nothing to fear when we know what God has done for us and we've accepted it."

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Final Thoughts

This episode masterfully intertwines personal NDE testimonies with deep theological analysis, presenting a thought-provoking exploration of hellish experiences and the redemptive power of divine love. John Burke effectively bridges faith and personal revelation, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of the darker aspects of the afterlife while providing hope and pathways to spiritual salvation.

For those intrigued by the complexities of life after death and the interplay between choice and divine intervention, this episode serves as a profound resource, encouraging reflection and spiritual growth.

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For more insights and stories, consider subscribing to the Imagine Heaven Podcast and exploring previous episodes.

Transcript

[John Burke]

Packages by Expedia. You were made to be rechargeable. We were made to package flights, hotels and hammocks for less Expedia. Made to travel. Do people have hellish near death experiences? And if so, how prevalent are they? And why would a loving, all powerful God allow such a place to exist? Is there anything we can learn from these to help us be better people today? Well, I'm John Burke, author of the New York Times best selling books Imagine Heaven and Imagine the God of Heaven. And this is the Imagine Heaven podcast.

[Howard Storm]

I'm now down, descending lower and lower into nothingness. And I just keep falling and falling and falling.

[Penny Whitbrodt]

It feels like somebody grabs me and drops me in this outer darkness and I start racing down this black tunnel. And so as I'm going down, the next thing that comes to my head, oh my God, I died and I'm going to hell.

[Paul Ojeda]

The people encircled me and kind of started leading me as we journeyed. I'm aware I can't see anything anymore. It's pitch black.

[Kyle Hubbard]

One study done of people who reported near death experiences and 23% actually had hellish experiences. So not every near death experience is blissful.

[Howard Storm]

At this point, I'm feeling more and more anxiety, more and more pain than even I felt on my worst day alive. There was no doubt in my mind the hell of the Bible. This is where I am. This is where I'm going to be forever.

[Penny Whitbrodt]

It's almost like there's an absence of hope, there's an absence of love, it's the absence of God.

[Paul Ojeda]

So I said, I'm not going any further. And they said, oh yes, you are. So they started to tug at me and push at me and then that became biting and tearing and they were taking pieces of me.

[John Burke]

In my study of these hellish near.

[Santosh]

Death experiences, I am impressed.

[John Burke]

What a high percentage of people go on to make positive changes in their life. They become better people. They learn to fear, guilt, anger, those negative things they were dealing with in their life before they had that experience.

[Penny Whitbrodt]

I get to this place of desperation where I cry out to the Lord and all of a sudden the spirit of the Lord comes down and I feel the presence of God.

[Paul Ojeda]

And in that place I heard a voice. The voice said, pray to God our Father, who art in heaven. I remember like these phrases out of prayers. The people around me absolutely can't bear it. They would retreat further and further away.

[John Burke]

You know, after studying close to 1500 cases of clinical death and resuscitation, hearing many near death experiences that are heavenly and wonderful, but also many hellish indies. I'm convinced that we can't just take the good and ignore the bad. We've got to make sense of these hellish near death experiences. And now maybe you've stumbled upon this podcast and maybe you're agnostic or atheist. Maybe you're like I was when I was a skeptical engineer and you're thinking, oh, these NDEs, these are all brain based. It's just something happened in the brain. I would encourage you to go listen to podcast episode one where I show why brain based explanations do not make sense of the evidence. But having said that, I wish hellish NDEs were not real. I would rather not talk about this. I mean, who really wants to talk about hell? But at the same time, if this is real, if near death experiences are pointing us towards something that is real, then what I realize is the most loving thing I can do is to talk about it. Because I'm convinced nobody has to go there, that heaven or hell is a choice, as we'll see. And so I, I hope you'll stick with me through this. I know it brings up a lot of questions and we're going to try to wrestle with some of them, but I think it's important to understand what they can teach us. I'm not doing this to make some sensationalist video or scare tactics or other things I'm sure people will say I'm doing. I'm trying to show the great love and mercy of God for all people and the deceptive nature of hell. And it is deceptive. I was deceived growing up. I mean, my friends and I thought, hell is a joke. God's a joke, Hell's a joke. It's going to be a raucous party, you know, like AC DC sang about in highway to Hell, right? You know, going down, party time. My friends are going to be there too. I'm on the highway to hell. But I'll tell you, if near death experiencers are telling us the truth, that is the most deceptive lie you could ever swallow. You know, Howard Storm was a tenured college professor. He was an atheist, and he was taking a group of students on an art tour through Europe. They were in France when his lower intestine ruptured, spilling toxins into his stomach cavity. After eight hours of trying to find a surgeon who could operate, he died. Now, Howard thought, when you die, it's just unplug the computer, it's nothing. But I want you to listen to what he experienced.

[Paul Ojeda]

I awoke from that And I felt wonderful, unlike I'd ever felt in my entire life.

[Kyle Hubbard]

Wait, so you knew you died and suddenly you felt great?

[Paul Ojeda]

Well, I didn't know I died. I just. I had been unconscious, and now I feel great, you know?

[Kyle Hubbard]

And where were you standing?

[Paul Ojeda]

Next to the bed, upright. And I. The first thing, I was like, why do I feel so good? I just felt the worst I'd ever felt in my entire life. I mean, I couldn't breathe. And now I'm like Superman. And my eyesight, my hearing, my taste. And I'm, like, feeling the floor, the linoleum floor. And I can feel every little dimple in the floor with the bottoms of my feet. Like, my feet are, like, more sensitive than my fingertips. And I can hear the buzz of the fluorescent lighting in the ceiling. And I notice that my peripheral vision is greatly expanded. And my depth of field is, like, without any limitation.

[Kyle Hubbard]

You still don't know you're dead.

[Paul Ojeda]

No.

[Kyle Hubbard]

And you feel alive. You feel.

[Paul Ojeda]

I feel more alive than I've ever felt in my entire life.

[Kyle Hubbard]

And your senses, you said, are heightened?

[Paul Ojeda]

Yeah. I mean, this world, ever since this experience has been kind of a disappointment because this world is sort of dreamlike compared to the reality that I experienced in this. And I heard people calling me in English, kind of nicely, you know, howard, Howard, come here. Come here. So I go over to the doorway of the room. And in the hallway is gray. It's very unclear, like a terrible black and white TV picture. And there's men and women standing far away from the light of the doorway. I said, I'm sick. I need to have surgery. I've been waiting all day for a doctor. And they said, we know all about you. Hurry. Come with us now. We can't wait any longer. Come, come, hurry. And I'm thinking, okay, they've come. They've come to take me to the doctor. This is great, you know.

[Kyle Hubbard]

So you think you're going for the surgery?

[Paul Ojeda]

Yeah. And the people, as I left the light of the room going into the hallway, encircled me and kind of started leading me in this direction as we journeyed. And there's no sense of time in any of this. So when I make time references, it's only for the purposes of trying to make a rational, sequential story out of this.

[Kyle Hubbard]

What do you mean, there's no time?

[Paul Ojeda]

I had a keen sense of time because I'd been a teacher all of my life. I was very aware. I don't have that sense. I have no sense of time in this place.

[Kyle Hubbard]

But you still didn't know where you were.

[Paul Ojeda]

Not a clue. At first I thought I was in the hospital. But as we walked in this grayness with these people around me, I became aware that this hospital was not this big because we've gone miles and miles and miles now. And we were up on the third, we'd started on the third floor. We never went up or down downstairs or anything. No features, no walls, no ceiling. Just grayness.

[Kyle Hubbard]

But you're walking on real ground.

[Paul Ojeda]

Yeah.

[Kyle Hubbard]

And you're feeling things.

[John Burke]

You're alive.

[Paul Ojeda]

You feel real, more real, much more real than I feel at this moment or any other time in my life on this earth.

[Kyle Hubbard]

And these people, did you see them?

[Paul Ojeda]

As the grayness got darker and darker, they moved in closer and closer. But initially they stayed far enough away from me so that I couldn't see them. All else I could see was that everything was gray about them. And they seemed to be wearing, they appeared to be wearing hospital outfits, which was V neck shirts with short sleeves and unadorned slacks.

[Kyle Hubbard]

So they kind of look like the hospital staff.

[Paul Ojeda]

Yeah, they looked exactly like hospital staff. And as we went, it got darker and darker and they came in closer and closer and more and more of them were around me. And now as I ask them questions like, where are we going? How much further? Things like that, they started to become more rude and say things to me like, shut up, don't ask questions, you'll find out. You don't need to know. Keep moving, keep moving, move it. You know, like that. And I'm like getting pretty intimidated. That becomes fear, that becomes terror. Now this is over a journey of miles and miles and miles. Eventually, it's so dark I'm aware I can't see anything anymore. It's pitch black. And I figure, I'm done, I've had it. And so I said, I'm not going any further. And they said, oh, yes you are. You've got further to go.

[John Burke]

Packages by Expedia. You were made to be rechargeable. We were made to package flights, hotels and hammocks for less Expedia. Made to travel.

[Paul Ojeda]

And I said, I'm not going. And so they started to tug at me and push at me. And I had played football and wrestled in high school, so I knew how to play that game, you know, and, you know, taking hits and giving hits wasn't a problem. So I'm like trying to fend them off by punching and slamming them. And they're pulling and tugging at me. What they were doing was just playing with me toying with me. And at first it was pushing, kicking, pulling, hitting. And then that became biting and tearing with their fingernails and hands. And they were taking pieces of me. And there was a lot of laughter, a lot of very foul language. And then they became more invasive. There has never been a horror movie or a book that can begin to describe their cruelty, because their cruelty was purely sadistic. I know that they got nothing out of it. It was simply something to do. And I'm very aware that they were so empty, so without compassion or feeling for me, that it was just amusement for me to scream and yell and fight back. And the less that I had the strength and the ability to fight back, the less interested they were in me. Eventually, I was eviscerated. I was. I definitely lost one of my eyes. My ears were gone. And I'm laying on the floor of that place. And I just want to say that the emotional pain of what they had done to me was worse than the physical pain. The physical pain was pain from head to foot. Just solid, horrible, acute pain. On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 total didn't begin to match. What I felt on the inside was, you know, having been taken down to nothing. I mean, the worst things that you could possibly imagine had happened to me and more. And in that place, I heard a voice, which I identify as my voice, except that it did not come out of my throat, off my lips. But I do feel. It's strange, but I feel like it came out of my chest. This voice said, pray to God. And I thought, I don't believe in God. I don't pray. The voice said, pray to God. And I thought, I don't even know how to pray. I couldn't pray if I wanted to pray. The voice said, pray to God. And I thought when I was a boy and had gone to Sunday school, we had been taught prayers. What were those prayers? So I'm searching for anything that I remembered as a child. And the first things that I come up with are like the Gettysburg Address, Shylock's speech in the Merchant of Venice. The quality of mercy is not strained. The Pledge of Allegiance. And the Pledge of Allegiance was good because there was the God mention in there, which led me to Our Father who art in heaven, which is all I could remember. So as I'm trying to remember these things, I'm muttering this stuff, trying to find something that sounds vaguely like a prayer. Anything that I can remember. Because I don't know. I mean, I now know that prayer is talking to God. But at that time, I thought prayer was something that you'd been taught and memorized and recited, but you couldn't find.

[Kyle Hubbard]

One at that point.

[Paul Ojeda]

Well, I found the Lord as my shepherd. And then I found. Later I found. Yea, though I walked to the valley of death, thou fear no evil. Stuff like that. And Our Father who art in heaven. I remember, like, these phrases out of prayers and I start to mutter this stuff, and the people around me absolutely can't bear it. And so in language that has never been heard in this world, obscene, filthy, vulgar language, they're saying to me, the content of which is there is no God. Nobody can hear you. And now you are going to really be hurt. You think what you experienced so far is something. Wait until we've got for you now if you don't stop now. This made me want to pray more because for the first time I was able to hit back at them. The prayers were like clobbering them. And I also noticed that the more I muttered and tried to articulate anything that had God in it, like Glory, glory, Hallelujah, Judge Goes Marching on, they would retreat further and further away. I mean, I could do this by hearing, not by sight. And that's how I knew they were backing off.

[Kyle Hubbard]

So you think that this was hell, the beginning of the.

[Paul Ojeda]

On the road to hell. On the road to hell.

[Kyle Hubbard]

So that's kind of a troubling thing about your story is that initially in your near death experience, you felt great. You felt more alive than ever.

[John Burke]

Is that right?

[Paul Ojeda]

Mm.

[Kyle Hubbard]

And you had a welcoming committee and they seemed nice and friendly.

[Paul Ojeda]

Mm.

[Kyle Hubbard]

So what do you make of that?

[Paul Ojeda]

I believe that one of the chief characteristics of evil is that it is a consummate liar. It wouldn't know the truth if it came up and bit him on the rear end. Evil is not going to come. Your evil welcoming committee is not going to come to you looking scary. They're going to get control of you and take you to Crime scene two. That's. Crime Scene one is where you die and where you go with them. Crime Scene two is where they want to take you, and that's where they're going to really get you.

[Kyle Hubbard]

So you think there is more to. More to it than what you experienced?

[Paul Ojeda]

Oh, there's lots, lots more. How do you know that? I know. I mean, they told me. They promised me there was a whole lot more.

[Kyle Hubbard]

So you're laying there and you start to piece together these prayers, anything with the word God in it. And what happened?

[Paul Ojeda]

Well, they left me alone. So now I have Eternity, time without measure. To think about my situation. And I, I thought about my life as a son to my mother and father. I had failed them. My father and I had no relationship. And my poor mother, because my dad and I not speaking to each other, she was, you know, we couldn't have much of a relationship. I hardly ever saw her. I had very poor relationship with my sisters. I had not been a good husband to my wife. And you can use your imagination to figure out what that means. But that's true. That's all true. I had not been the father to my kids that I should have been. And I knew I hadn't because I was busy. I was trying to be somebody, you know, like the football games and the band concerts and the choral concerts and the theater performances that could all wait because I was busy being important. And I realized that I belonged with these people in this place. The only problem was, is I didn't want to be with those people because I knew that the only way to survive in this world, if you don't want to be a victim anymore, you've got to be meaner, crueler than they are. You've got to be the victimizer and not the victim.

[John Burke]

Well, you'll hear the rest of Howard's story a little later, but I want you to notice several things. First of all, Howard said these people told him there's much worse that they're going to take him to, like, their levels of, of hell. And we'll explore what that might be and what some of those might look like in a little bit. He also said that these people were kindred spirits. In other words, he didn't think they were demonic. He thought they were people just like him on earth. But in that place, you devolve, you become worse. Because think about it. Without the love and light and goodness and kindness of God, because there is no God and all that comes from God. And without that, people devolve because these are people who have said, God, stay out. And he does. And so this place is the place where the creature plays God, you know, says, I'm God, my will be done. And so like Howard talked about, it's, it's a fight to rule. It's dominate or be dominated. And it's really like the most horrific prison scene imaginable, only worse. Because notice, Howard also said it's a heightened experience. So if you've, if you've been listening to my other podcast, you know that heavenly near death experiences, all of them say they're in this new body with with greater heightened senses. So everything is increased. The beauty, the wonder, the, the, the feeling of everything is, is magnified. But what that means is that here on Earth, we're only getting a, a muted taste of heaven, of all the goodness and love and kindness and beauty. But we're also only getting a muted taste of what hell would be like. All the suffering and evil that's possible. And I believe actually God is doing that in his mercy again, giving us a chance to choose what is good and right, to choose love, to choose God. But I believe that starts to help answer some of our greatest questions of God too. Like why would a loving God allow this? But what if what he's really doing is allowing so much less in a, in a merciful desire to have us never choose that? Well, how prevalent are these hellish near death experiences anyway? And I need to start by reminding you, you know, near death experiences are very common, like millions. The Gallup poll in the 80s found that 1 out of 25Americans has had a near death experience. All kinds. So that's roughly 4%. In 2019, the European Academy of Neurology reported a study done across 35 countries, and they said that 10% of people had near death experiences. It's millions either way you look at it. And what are the hellish percent? Well, Dr. Long, who you heard in the opening video, he would say it's less than 2%. And he says that because his figure comes from the website that he designed, the NDRF websites, the largest database of people who share their near death experience story and those who willingly shared their story. If he does runs a study, less than 2% report hellish stories. Now I hope it's that low. I, I really do. But other studies challenge that figure. Like the Handbook of Near death experiences, reports 12 different studies involving 1369 subjects and said 23% reported NDEs ranging from disturbing to terrifying or despairing. And then that 2019 European Academy of Neurology study across 35 countries that Dr. Konziella did said, however, unlike previous reports in which near death experiencers were almost always associated with peacefulness and well being, we found a much higher rate of people stating that their experience was indeed unpleasant. Almost half of all near death experiences were labeled as stressful. Okay, so wide range, 2% to maybe 50%. But here's the thing. Ultimately we don't know the percent. As Dr. Pim Van Lommel, who's a cardiologist and NDE researcher from the Netherlands, said, such a terrifying NDE usually produces long lasting emotional trauma. So not surprisingly, it's known as a hell experience. And the exact number of people who experience such a frightening NDE is unknown because they often keep quiet out of shame and guilt. So the truth is, it's probably underreported, whatever the percent, but honestly, the percent doesn't matter. The reality is, if these are real, we need to understand that, well, what do we do about it? How do we avoid it at all costs? Right? And what can we learn from this? You know, Jesus actually talked about heaven about 160 times, according to the eyewitnesses who write about his life in the gospels in the New Testament. But he talked about hell around 60 times. And he talked about it because really as a warning, because God does not want anyone to go there. In fact, Jesus said this in Matthew 18, it is not my heavenly Father's will that even one of these little ones should perish. So it's given as a warning in love. God's will is that no one would choose hell. And as we'll see, it's a choice. Peter in the New Testament says, God is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. And repentance, that word literally means turning back to God. And. And it's really that simple, people turning back to God, as you'll hear in these stories now, indie ears describe these different hellish realms or places. Scripture talks about some of them, others not as much. One of them is the void or the outer darkness. Listen, as Penny Whitbrodt and Paul Ojeda both describe this void or this outer darkness. And you know, during her near death experience, Penny found herself in her sister's car. Her sister was driving from another city when she heard that Penny had gone into anaphylactic shock. So Penny doesn't realize she's. She's dead. She finds herself in her sister's car, and she's later able to describe everything that she experienced.

[Yin]

And I just started feeling not normal. My limbs went cold and I'm like, I'm going into shock and I just passed out. I just stopped breathing. So I hear the code call. I wake up and I'm above me. I'm watching the scene, and I don't know, it's me in the bed and I see everybody coming in, like filing in really quick. And as they're filing in, they're kind of shoving my husband out and they got the crash cart. I hear the tongue blade snap open. And that's what they use. They put it in your mouth and put the breathing tube, ET tube down your throat. And then when I come to, I'm in my sister's car. And so I know something's not right because I don't have normal mass. I don't feel that I'm sitting on the seat or that it's pressing on me. And I didn't want to scare her because it's pouring rain. It's dark. She's driving like a fiend. And I'm like, what is she doing out? And it's late, and it's pouring rain, you know, And I thought maybe something had happened to the kids. And. And so she pulls over at a gas station under a canopy, and she puts her hand in her purse, and I lean forward, and she's got this mismatched, wrinkly outfit on. And I'm like, what the. What is she wearing? Did she, like, get dressed out of the laundry basket in the dark or. And she pulls out her phone and she types in, hang on, kiddo, I'm coming. And then I'm out again. And then when I wake up, I'm in the void. And so I'm in the void. I'm suspended. I don't know where I am or how I got there. I had no idea where I was. I didn't know if I was alive or if I was dead. I just knew I was in this really dark place. I had no idea how big or small it was because it was pitch black. I'd never been in any place that dark. But I still had that mental image of me just kind of in the air, not. And I couldn't feel anything against me, or I wasn't lying down or sitting or standing. I just was suspended there, and I couldn't move. And I'm really, really claustrophobic in that way. And that would absolutely freak me out. I'd start panicking, and then I'd go back in the deep sleep. And I just keep doing this, and I start wondering, you know, I'd wake up and I'm like, you know, maybe I'm dead. You know, maybe that's what happened. Maybe I got really sick or something and I died. And I'm like, but this is it. This is where I'm going to be. Because I wasn't sure about heaven.

[Penny Whitbrodt]

It was funny, but when we get out, Lillian knew a bunch of Colombian drug dealers. And I remember that I was told, don't go to that place. It's really bad. And Lillian said, that's where we're going. And so she introduced me to a whole bunch of really bad people.

[Kyle Hubbard]

Were they dealing or.

[Penny Whitbrodt]

Yeah, they were obviously Colombian drug dealers.

[Kyle Hubbard]

Dealing what?

[Penny Whitbrodt]

Cocaine.

[Kyle Hubbard]

Cocaine, yeah. So is that what you guys were doing?

[Penny Whitbrodt]

That's right, yeah. And so we were addicted to cocaine. Lillian obviously worked in a cabaret and she sewed, and, you know, she was into all that. And so I got out and obviously we were a bad combination. We just got worse. We're sitting there, we're doing a plate full of cocaine, and Lillian looks at me and she begins to tell me. She says, paul, God is going to use you to speak to many people. He's going to use you to pull people out of the darkness and bring them to the light.

[Kyle Hubbard]

You're about to do a plate of cocaine.

[Penny Whitbrodt]

We're about to do a whole plate full of cocaine. And I look at her and I'm like, I don't think so. And she's like, no. She says, God's got a calling on your life. You're going to do great things for the Lord. Well, shortly after that, as I'm doing the plate full of cocaine, I have an overdose. As I have this overdose, immediately the ambulance comes. They pick me up. And all I remember is that they're loading me up into the back of the ambulance and I hear this voice that says, just give up. At that point, I just thought, you know, if I die, it's all going to come to an end. The pain and the suffering and everything that I'm dealing with in this world, at least it'll stop. As I give up, all of a sudden, I find myself that I am no longer high. I wake up and it feels like somebody grabs me and drops me in this outer darkness. And I start racing down this black tunnel. It is the darkest, darkest that I've ever seen. I mean, it's just pitch black. And I just remember a free fallen as an endless free falling.

[Kyle Hubbard]

And you're not high anymore?

[Penny Whitbrodt]

I am not high. I definitely know what's going on and where I'm at. And I'm shocked because I'm just like, what happened? That's when I realized I died. As I'm going down, the next thing that comes to my head is, oh, my God, I died and I'm going to hell.

[Kyle Hubbard]

How did you know that?

[Penny Whitbrodt]

I knew that because as I'm going down this tunnel, it felt like there was a pulling away from God. I don't know how to explain it other than it felt like being cast out into outer space. Like this place of void and emptiness and So I just felt like I was just being pulled away from everything, including God. And as I'm going down this tunnel, as I'm racing down the tunnel, I start to tell the Lord, well, I think there's some kind of mistake here because, you know, I've never killed anybody. I've never robbed a bank. I've never done anything major that I think, you know.

[Kyle Hubbard]

So you're basically making your case.

[Penny Whitbrodt]

Yeah, I'm like, you know, God. I'm not. I mean, I know it's bad, but I wasn't really that bad. And the only person I really heard it was pretty much myself. And so as I'm making all these justifications why I don't deserve hell, it seems like it starts going faster and faster.

[John Burke]

Paul said the more he tried to justify, the faster he started dropping. And you know, this is kind of a consistent commonality with near death experiencers. They, they tell me that on the other side, you cannot hide from the truth. On, on this side of reality we can justify and rationalize and be very deceived. But there you see it as it is. And Howard and Penny and Paul all told me, I knew that this is what I had chosen, choice by choice, I, I had locked myself out from God's love. But that's not the end of the story. So stick with me and you'll see. You know, Jesus talked about this outer darkness many times. Once when the Israelite leaders were rejecting him, they were seeing him do the miraculous and saying he's doing it by sorcery, by demonic power. And yet then this Roman centurion, this, this gentile, non Jewish, pagan, you know, guy puts great faith, great trust in Jesus. And Jesus reminded all the people that God is calling people from all nations. And here's what he said in Matthew 8. And I tell you this, that many Gentiles or non Jewish people will come from all over the world, from east and west and sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob at the feast in the kingdom of heaven. But many Israelites will be thrown into outer darkness. There, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. And some just describe this void or this outer darkness. Others describe another realm, kind of like hell on earth. You know, some indie eaters, they find themselves still in the realm of earth and yet chained to what possessed them in this life. Alcohol or drugs or an obsession to control others, unable to satisfy these endless cravings. Now the scripture teaches as well that there's a spiritual realm in the unseen dimensions around the earth. Revelation says the ancient serpent called the devil or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world was thrown down to the earth with all his angels. And right before Jesus went to the cross to pay for all our sins, to forgive us all, he said, now the ruler of this world will be cast out. And I. If I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people to myself. So we see that Jesus taught that there is a spiritual realm around us, an unseen realm ruled by evil, and that God is allowing evil to rule only for a time, but. But we can still choose God's leadership instead. It's a choice that he lets us make. You know, Dr. George Richie had an NDE in 1945, and he claimed that Jesus took him on a tour of what he said seemed like levels of hell. And then he took him to see heaven. And he saw a scene much like what Howard endured with. With people out on this plane abusing each other in, in every imaginable way. Then he took him to this just normal earth scene, a city factory. And there was a guy standing over another one, still barking orders at him, though that guy didn't even know he was there. Another scene where a group of women were standing around smoking, and one woman was begging for a cigarette. And the other woman went to light her cigarette. And the begging woman, ravish, ravenously tried to snatch it, but her hand just went right through it. Another scene where a man's walking down the street and his mother is right by his side, just hounding him about. About how he should never have married Marjorie and how he needs to take better care of himself. And then he sees another scene of people in a bar desperately trying to grab a drink, but. But unable, you know, these people invisible to the living, but permanently wrapped up in their affairs. And Richie had this thought hit him. Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. And here's what he said about it. Those words of Jesus from the Sermon on the Mount sprang into my mind now like an electric shock. Perhaps these insubstantial people, the businessman, the woman begging cigarettes, this mother, although they could no longer contact, the earth, still had their hearts. There did I. To be cut off for all eternity from the thing they could never stop craving. Surely that would be a form of hell. Well, Dr. Richie returned, and he returned to follow Jesus. And in fact, he started what is now today known as the modern day Peace Corps. And he turned out to be the first near death experience reported. I want you to listen, though, as Kyle Hubbard describes Seeing a similar thing of, of people unable to find what they crave in a level of the earth and then other levels as well. When he died of an alcohol overdose.

[Howard Storm]

Listen, I went into a spiral of depression and it led me to active alcoholism. At 21 years, I thought I was going to die in this addiction. My dad checked me into a hospital and the second night that I'm there, I was waiting for the next beat of my heart and it didn't come. And my vision instantly went black. I realized that I had died, but I was still thinking to myself, why am I still conscious? The experience went to me being in a different room and surrounding me are people who are just in a frantic, hurried panic state, looking for drugs, for alcohol, looking for any substance that would suppress the anxiety, the fear. The next level that I realized, I went to a different room. And this was a dark room. And there was a. What I describe as like a grandmother figure looking at me. And there was enough light in the room where I could see half of her face in the light. It was like the most beautiful, angelic, warm, loving feeling. But then when she turned and you could see in the dark side of her face was the most grotesque, demonic, flesh eaten image you could imagine. On the other side, behind a door in that room, there was this cacophony of voices and they just sounded demonic, they sounded evil and they wanted to kill me. The thought comes into my mind, since I'm in hell, I'm going to be here forever. I might as well get right with the devil. If I start saying what he says, if I start believing what he believes, maybe there's a place of authority for me down here. I'm now down, descending lower and lower into nothingness. What felt like about five minutes got me to a point where I realized, okay, there's probably nothing down here. And I'm suspended in nothingness. At this point, I stop falling and a thought comes into my heart. Just one word. And so I yell yes, into nothingness. As soon as I do, I'm instantly back on the hospital bed. But this time in the hospital room, there's tangible peace in the room. And I see written on the wall a Bible verse. It's the verse John 3:16. And it was glowing. It was white hot. I describe it as the color of lightning. After that, I remember kind of being in a. A heavenly glory or a day is for a day what felt like in the hospital. And then kind of the reality of where my body actually was and how I learned how to live life. Was with the crutch of alcohol. And so I realized, okay, my body's actually in a not a good spot. And I have to now learn how to live life sober and free and learn how to live life for this God who I said yes to and who gave me a second chance.

[John Burke]

You know, as you'll begin to see, this is the common theme of these hellish near death experiences. The God of the second chance, that whenever someone calls on his name, whenever someone cries out to him, he is so loving and kind and merciful that he rescues them. You know, Kyle saw one level of this hellish realm where people were jonesing for alcohol or drugs, trying to get it like it's their God. That's what they loved most and live for most. And if we never give our lives to God, we never invite him to come in and to break those chains, then do we stay chained to them into the next life? That would definitely be a form of hell. And then he saw other levels. And Howard was told that there are much worse places. Some near death experiencers talk about the pit or the lake of fire, and they call it a pit or an abyss, a dark abyss. But many also see fire. And I'm going to be honest with you, like, even as a pastor who knew and taught the Bible, I thought this was a metaphor. How can you have darkness and fire? Fire lights the darkness. So I thought it's just a metaphor. But then I interviewed more and more near death experiences, experiencers describing this both coexisting in this unearthly realm. And, you know, Jesus talked about those who would reject God's loving will and ways right to the end. And he says, the k King God, the king of the universe, will turn to those on his left and say, away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. So the scriptures teach something like this. But now I want you to notice something very important. This hell was not created for people. It was created for the fallen angels. That's what Jesus just said. Prepared for the devil and his demons. And that is very important. It's an important key to understand why hell, even ex. If God doesn't want anyone to go there, it wasn't created for us and we can choose other. That's what God's grace is all about. That's what God's forgiveness is offered for. Listen, as Santosh, a Hindu man who grew up in India, described being led by this brilliant divine light, this God of light, to see the holy city of God. And in some of the earlier episodes, if you watch them, you heard him talk about that, just like John describes in the book of Revelation. But then he was also shown a vision of hell. And I might add, many of these see both a reality of heaven and a vision of hell. And they're told to go back and tell people like Santosh knew I have to tell the truth about the kingdom of heaven, that I'm seeing the holy city and hell and the reality of God. Now, Santosh, when he saw that, he thought there is no hope. And then he sees God on his throne. And yet when he calls out for forgiveness, because again, he sees all his good and all is bad, he feels compassion and mercy from God and God sends him back and he actually realizes everything he experienced was there in the Bible, and he becomes a follower of Jesus. Yin, a Buddhist woman from Laos, describes her experience in this place called the pit or the abyss. But listen also to how her rescue happened.

[Erica]

So I looked on my left, and what I saw down below was so scary, even scares me even to this day. What happened to fall enormous depth in darkness. And at the end, where I'm going to fall is a lake of fire. That's what I'm going to fall.

[Kyle Hubbard]

You're seeing this down to the left.

[Erica]

I'm seeing on my left below there where I'm going to fall. I want to enter into the kingdom of heaven, but I can't. I cannot go back where I came from because I said, no, no, once I leave this world, there's only one way ticket. You cannot go back. So my only option was to fall into that lake of fire.

[Randy]

And coming from Laos, pretty much everyone was Buddhist. And there are, of course, different types of Buddhism, but the Buddhist tradition that we embraced was very much relying on ancestral worship. Growing up, we always. I was taught that Christianity is the American God. So I didn't even know how God was really. The truth is that he's for everybody but us. You know, for us growing up, it was, this is the American God. Continuing that on. In my teenage years, you know, I felt like the only way that I could be myself was to find friendships that obviously just led me down the wrong path of alcoholism and drugs and just any. Just escape, Just anything that I could do to escape. Yeah, I was 20 years old. I was in college, living off campus, you know, with a couple of roommates. I was in a very toxic relationship. I just was dumb. I didn't know how to escape it. And I just remember I. I looked in the mirror and I. And I Didn't. I didn't know. I didn't believe in God. I didn't have a relationship with the Lord because what I shared, just the whole belief in the different spirits and Buddhist tradition and then also trying to embrace other religions too. I looked into New Age. I looked into witchcraft. Like, I was really searching. So I looked in the mirror and I said, God, I don't even know if you're real, but I just. I hear that you are. I've had experience that, you know, maybe you are. But I said, God, I heard that, you know, if you are real. I heard that if you commit suicide that you go to hell. I just said, I don't care because I am hurting so badly. I feel like this is hell on earth. I hate my life. I would rather go to hell. I don't care anymore. And I. Bottle of sleeping pills and any medication that I had, and I realized I was dying. And what happened was. I don't know the timing. I don't know how long it took before I got to that state. But after taking the pills, I remember feeling like I was losing consciousness. And what I saw was. I could see myself slipping into a different realm. It was like I was. It was like my spirit was leaving my body and I was entering into a different spiritual existence of. I saw. I literally with. I, like, I visually saw this. I saw this. These bars come over me and bars come under me. And I knew I was going. I was about to be enclosed in a cage, like all bars from the top into the bottom. And I was about to be enclosed. And then at the same time, I heard. It was like this low chanting that I just had this knowing that it was demonic voices. And it was just like. Just a really low. Like. Like I can't even do what they. What I heard it was just like this low, like, chanting, murmuring. And I. I knew I was like, now I'm hearing it. Now I'm hearing this other realm. It was like fear came over me, absolute fear. Gripping ear rising fear. And so I'm hearing this chanting. I'm seeing the cage and I'm. And I'm going into, like. And I knew it was a black abyss. I knew I was going there. And so I. What was happening at the time was I was. I would slip into that and from fear, like, oh, my gosh, I'm going into this place, you know, this horrific, horrifying place. Come back. You know, I was just like, trying to tell myself, like, no, come back. Come back. So I called my therapist and I just, I called him on the phone and I said, this is what happened. This is what's going on. I know I'm dying. On my way to the hospital, I just, I cried out and I said, God, I am so sorry. I said to you, I would rather go to hell. And I see hell is real. I see it's real now. I didn't really believe it, John.

[John Burke]

Right.

[Howard Storm]

Yeah.

[Kyle Hubbard]

And you know, I've interviewed many people who have had hellish near death experiences. One of the things they said that it sounds like you just hinted at.

[John Burke]

Is that the worst part is the.

[Kyle Hubbard]

Absolute knowledge that there is no hope.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Kyle Hubbard]

Did you experience that?

[Randy]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And that's why I cried out in that moment. Because I said, God, I'm seeing this now. And now I see it's real and I don't want to go there. I mean, I'm about to be caged up for eternity and tormented and just. And then, you know, as I was saying, it was just like. I knew it was demonic because of the fear. I can't even explain to people, that gripping, paralyzing fear that came over me that you don't want to be there. So I just cried out to God and said, not that I want to be alive, but I don't want to go there. If you could do anything for me, please, I don't want to go there. I am so sorry. God, I just. I just thought I was so sorry.

[Kyle Hubbard]

After that. First taking the pills, having this, these hellish experiences as you're, as you're in and out. Then you recovered and went home?

[Randy]

Yes, so I recovered. I went home and I was exhausted from being in the hospital. And I remember laying in my bed. I'm going to take a nap. I laid in my bed and I had this out of body experience. My spirit left my body and I was in my. I was. I can explain this. I'm laying down in my bed and my spirit just went right through the mattress. I felt, I felt being sucked in through the mattress. And then I was now going down, down, down. I just remember thinking I was going down. I could feel like, just quick, fast. It was, it was like a speed, lightning speed, just like going through the layers of the earth. But I'm actually seeing, you know, the core, the mantle going through the earth, just going straight down.

[Kyle Hubbard]

And is it, is it dark?

[John Burke]

Is it.

[Randy]

Well, I mean, just through, through the layers you're just, you're just seeing like gravel, you're seeing dirt, you're seeing, you're just, you're just noticing the, you know, how the Earth is. So I. I wouldn't say it was necessarily dark. It just was like, oh, that's interesting. I remember studying this, never being able to see this up close. Like, that's wild. Yeah. How would anyone be able to see that?

[Kyle Hubbard]

You are aware that you are not in your body, you were dead or something.

[Randy]

I knew I was not in my body because I felt being stuck. I felt like I left my body and I was stuck through the mattress. And now I'm on this other journey. On this other journey. So I'm noticing.

[Kyle Hubbard]

And you were dropping.

[Randy]

Yes, I was dropping. I just was dropping straight through. I'm going, you know, if you look. If you look at the earth, you're going through the earth very fast, very quick, rapid lightning speed. Like, everything was happening just so fast. And so I'm going super fast. And then I drop into what I just knew. I was like in the center of the earth. And I was like, okay, just trying to comprehend, like, where am I now? And so I drop into this black pit is how I explain it. And so I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm back in hell. Like, I remember thinking I was going to hell just a day or two ago, and now I'm back there because I. The familiar blackness. And so what I share with people is like, you know, people talk about a black, you know, dark night, but I mean, I just remember thinking, like, how could anything be so dark? Now I've dropped into this. Like, I kind of just dropped into this pit, that black pit. And even though it was so dark and you can't see anything with your eyes, you just. You just have a knowing. So I just had this knowing that there were these beings all around me. And I just knew that they were the demonic beings where we're chanting from before. And it was just. They communicated by thought. So obviously it's not us talking, it's just one thought after another thought to the first thought that just jumped out that just. I knew that one said was, you're right, God isn't real. And then another thought, you're right, God does not love you. And then another. It just. It was like one thought after another thought. And it was almost like their thought just bounced on me. And I heard it, and I had a choice, and I had my choice was, was I going to believe what they were saying? And something within me, just something within me just said, you cannot partner with. These are lies. And you cannot partner with.

[Kyle Hubbard]

And I can almost guarantee you that was the voice of God.

[Randy]

Yeah, because.

[Kyle Hubbard]

Because my friend Howard Storm, who was a tenured college professor, he hears a voice coming from within, pray to God. And he was like, I don't believe in God. How am I going to pray to God? I don't even know how to pray, you know?

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Kyle Hubbard]

And the voice kept saying that, and when he finally started to, they backed off.

[Randy]

Wow, that's fascinating, because you literally. Because as you said, even though I wasn't a Christian at that time, something inside me said, don't partner with that lie. And so I knew I had to say the opposite, even though I didn't even know I believed it. So I just started just to come back and say, no, God does love me. No, God does care about me. I just knew I had to say the opposite. And so as I was saying, and just my thought or whatever was coming out of me to fight against these lies of God does love me, he does care about me. As I was saying that, right above me, this right, like, broke through that dark abyss. Broke right through, like, just tore open right above me. And I really believe it was Jesus. I couldn't see anything, but what I saw was a horse. I saw a white horse. And I believe it was Jesus riding on this horse. It was just this bright light that I couldn't see a face.

[Kyle Hubbard]

You saw a person on the horse, but it was a brilliant light that was coming out of him for sure. Just what was that light?

[John Burke]

Like?

[Randy]

He was so. He. It was like. It was just the brightest light. It was white shining, brightest light ever. You can't see a face or anything. I just remember just being absolutely shocked and astounded that something came through, because I thought we just went through that entire earth down into the middle. How is this being coming through, like, breaking forth? How is that even possible? You know, I thought I was so far down and exactly like your friend, like, swooped me up and it just rescued me from that. It was just like a lifting, you know, of my being with him.

[Kyle Hubbard]

And why did you think that was Jesus? Since you had no context for that, really.

[John Burke]

Right.

[Randy]

You know, I. I don't know. I mean, because I just thought, you know, you hear about him being the rescuer. I just. I just really believe that it was Jesus, you know that, because I was like saying, God got us for me. And so I believe that he sent son, you know, that he was sending a son to help me that was saying, no, God is real. God does care about me. So I just. I really believe it was Jesus.

[Kyle Hubbard]

Well, and what's wild is, you know, in the book of Revelation, Jesus is coming to, to, to rescue and to save on a white horse. In the end. In the end, right?

[Randy]

Yes, on a white horse. Exactly. And so next thing I know, I'm being lifted up. I was rescued and now I'm going the same way. I came straight down the same speed I was now going back up, I'm back to seeing the layers of the earth. I'm like, okay, this is the way we came. Interesting. Wow, back up. And I thought I was like, okay, I'm rest now. I'm just going to be dropped right back into my bed, into my room, into my college, you know, apartment. And no, I was passing up my house, I was passing up the streets of Milwaukee. I was.

[Kyle Hubbard]

And you could see, you could see your house and the in Milwaukee going as you kept going up.

[Randy]

Exactly. Everything now was getting smaller and smaller. What I saw ahead of me was, I knew it was heaven because I was heading to this place. And what I can share is I saw the beautiful radiant light, like what I can say, like forms of angels, but I really couldn't see their full face. I just saw like the forms of angels. And what I can really recall was the most beautiful singing in a language I've never heard, but I knew was angelic singing. See, that was a contrast to the demonic voices I heard that brought fear and that brought me, you know, that terrifying experience. This was beautiful songs and singing of angels that immediately just washed over me with unconditional love and peace and hope. And then I remember thinking a sadness because I didn't get a chance to say goodbye to my family. I had a terrible relationship with my family, but I wanted to at least say goodbye. So when I had that thought, I heard and I knew it was the voice of God. I heard a tangible voice say, it's not your time. And right when that voice released those words, I drop right back.

[John Burke]

You know, Yin calls on God to forgive her and to rescue her and then, and she's trusting in his love for her. And who comes into this dark pit, this abyss. She says it was Jesus, you know, and Jesus on his white horse, just like it says he's coming back, you know, in, in, in the end. On a white horse. Now here's what these hellish near death stories have in common. When people call out to God for forgiveness, Jesus rescues them. And you know, the Jewish prophet Joel said this. He said, but everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. And Paul in The New Testament quotes Joel saying the same thing, that because of what Jesus has, has done, God is willing to forgive anyone who turns back and, and wants it. Whether Buddhist or Hindu or Muslim or atheist or Christians who are just Christian in name, but they've never really given their lives to God. All who call out to God for salvation, Jesus saves. Now how do you explain that? That I am showing you people from around the world and I've interviewed 70 of them. There's 70 of them in the book Imagine the God of Heaven and they are testifying to the same reality. But Jesus said this. He said it was written long ago that the Messiah would suffer and die and rise from the dead on the third day. He said this to his disciples after his resurrection. He said it was also written that this message would be proclaimed in the authority of his name to all the nations, beginning in Jerusalem. There is forgiveness of sins for all who repent. And again repent just simply means to turn back. So God, God forgives and rescues every person whose heart turns back to him, who cries out to him. And why? Because he's already paid the price of his justice. When Jesus died on the cross once for all time, for all people. And he wants all people to know this because he wants all people to have confidence of being right, related to him, right standing with him when we, when we turn back to him and accept what he's done for us in paying for our wrongs through Jesus. And by the way, that's all God needs, is a heart turning back. And that's what these people have in common. When they turned their heart to the one true God, they were rescued. And even if they didn't know who was rescuing them before they discovered he's the Savior of the world.

[Erica]

When I died, when I went, I found myself in a place and this place was, was like a butchery. I, I found myself lying down and there was a big window on in that same house. So now four men jumped in. They were having very tall teeth and very tall nails. And sometimes one ear would be here and another one up and it was very terrifying. So now one was having a bucket, another one was having an axe, another one was having a sword, another one was having a psychopath and they started trying to cutting me, cutting me, cutting me.

[Kyle Hubbard]

So you think, was this a hellish place?

[John Burke]

Were these, what were these?

[Erica]

I was feeling so hot, as if I was put into a fanac of fire of like more than 100 degrees. So now before it brings it down to cut me. So that very Same window. A person entered wearing a white garment with the sandals, you know, holding his hand, you know, showing them to me with these very big holes into his hands. He told me, I died for men. You are among those I died for. Never deny it again and tell this to everyone.

[Penny Whitbrodt]

And so as I'm making all these justifications why I don't deserve hell, it seems like it starts going faster and faster. And so when I realize that there's nothing I can do to turn it around, I get to this place of desperation where I cry out to the Lord, as I cry out to the Lord, and I say, God, I need you. I mean, there was a desperation like, God, I need your help right now. If you don't come and get me, I don't know how I'm going to get out of this. And all of a sudden, the spirit of the Lord comes down and I feel the presence of God.

[Kyle Hubbard]

How did you know?

[Penny Whitbrodt]

I knew because there was a sense of peace that came down right beside me. I mean, remember I told you there was black and there was voidness and it was just emptiness? Well, the emptiness went away. All of a sudden when God comes next to me, I feel his peace, I feel his love, I feel his presence.

[Paul Ojeda]

And as I'm thinking about there's no hope, there's no way out, and I am in the bottom of the pit of hopelessness and despair and self pity, whatever in that. This memory comes of myself as a little boy sitting in a Sunday school classroom singing Jesus loves Me. And I could see myself vividly. So innocent, so sweet, so naive. But I had put that all away behind me, beside me, and denied it all and mocked it all and.

[Randy]

And.

[Paul Ojeda]

Now all of a sudden, it was all I had. I had nothing else. I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel of what might be possible. So I thought about that too. And I thought, why would he care about me? Even if he is, why would he care? He must hate me. I'm so sorry. And I thought, enough of this. I'm done. I don't have anything else. Jesus, please save me. And when I said that, I saw light, tiny little speck of light. And it very rapidly got very bright and came over me. And I saw out of the light, hands and arms emerge out of this impossibly beautiful white light. These hands and arms came out and they reached down and they touched me. And when they touched me in that light, I could see me. And all the gore and I was roadkill, all that gore began to just dissolve. And I became Whole and much more significantly to me than was the physical healing, was that I was experiencing a love that is beyond, far beyond words. I've never been able to articulate it, but I can say that if I took all my experience of love in my entire life and could condense it into a moment, it still wouldn't begin to measure up to the intensity of this love that I was feeling. And those arms went on me and healed me. They went behind my back and he picked me up as if it was no effort on his part. He just gently picked me up and held me up against him real tight up against his chest. So there I am with my arms around him, his arms around me, and I am bawling like a baby, and I am slobbering and snotting and drooling with my head buried in his chest, and he starts to rub my back like he wasn't saying, there, there, but it was just like a mom or a dad with a child. And I knew, I don't know how I knew, but I knew that he loved me very much, just the way I was. Later in this experience, we did a life review and he made perfectly clear, clear what he did not like, and I can safely say despised, hated, detested about what I had done with my life, but he always loved me.

[John Burke]

Jesus told a parable of how God is like a father whose son took his inheritance and ran away to what would be our modern day Vegas and squandered everything on loose living, wild living, partying. And he gets to where he's in poverty and, and he has to eat with the pigs. And he realizes, I'm gonna go beg my dad to take me back as a servant just so I can eat. And it says that while this prodigal son was still far away, the Father saw him and ran to him and he embraced him and he said, my son was dead and now he's alive. He was lost and now he's found. And he said, we've got to celebrate. And Jesus said, that is the heart of the Father toward you. It doesn't matter how far you've run, it doesn't matter how bad it's gotten. God runs to you like that and he embraces you when you turn back to him. Isn't that amazing? You know, that's exactly what Howard experienced. And Jesus said, in the same way, there is joy in the presence of God's angels. When even one sinner repents, when one person who has turned from God turns back to God. You know, think about this Paul the cocaine addict, Swadik the Muslim, Howard the atheist, Kyle the alcoholic, Yin, the Buddhist woman. All of them came back from their near death experience and not only became followers of Jesus, they all became pastors. They all devoted their life to helping others know and follow God. Why? Because it was that real. Not just of hell, but the reality of God's goodness and love. That's what motivates them. Even Santosh and Penny, both of them, they came back and, and they started following Jesus. You know, God says he entered into our. Our suffering. He suffered for us out of love. He. He did it so that we can be rescued from, you know, the traps and the evils that we get sucked into. You remember, Kyle saw that verse. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. See, God has made a way that anyone who wants God's love and forgiveness can have it. It's as simple as a choice. And he wants everyone to know it's as simple as a choice so that we don't live in fear of condemnation or live in fear of hell, but we instead are confident of eternal life. Jesus said, my sheep listen to my voice. I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life and they shall never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand. Have you put your trust in him? You know he's good. Are you following him? Because that is the simple choice that makes sure that we don't have to fear hell ever. Because our eternal destination is with God. No one can snatch you out of his hand. Okay, but how could a loving God who is all powerful send people to hell? You know, that's the question that, you know, atheists and agnostics and even Christians ask. So I want to quickly try to cover some of that. And I've covered a lot more of it in the book Imagine Heaven. We would be here a long time if I tried to go into all of it. But first you need to know, God did not create hell for people like we said before. It was for eternal angels. And see, angels were created not in time, but in eternity. So they too were created with a free will, just like we have been. And when they said, I don't want God's will, I want my will, I want to rule, I want to call the shots, well, that was an eternal choice, which means there's no Such thing as a second chance in eternity. Second chances are time bound. It requires sequential time. And so God created a realm where he allowed the fallen angels to rule apart from God. But the other thing we have to understand is God does not send anyone to hell. They choose to reject God. C.S. lewis, the Oxford scholar, said it this way. There are only two kinds of people in the end. Those who say to God, thy will be done and those to whom God says, in the end thy will be done. All that are in hell choose it. I tend to agree with what CS Lewis said and I think there are many nd ears who say the same. Lewis also said this. I willingly believe that the damned are in one sense successful rebels to the end. That the doors of hell are locked on the inside. In other words, that that hell is not God locking people in out of his presence, but people locking God out. And his justice is to give them what they demand. But why you say, you know, couldn't God do it some other way? I've come to believe no. And it gets a little complicated. I can't go into all of it. But think about it this way. If God is love and God created creatures who could love God back, which we were created that way. I think the angels were too. That requires freedom of choice. Choosing either to love God and follow him or to reject God's love and to go our own way. And hell is the only place where God stays out, where God gives creatures what they want. If they say, I don't want you, God, I want to rule, I don't want you to rule. Heaven, on the other hand, is where God finally does rule, where his will is done and everyone does his will. And I believe all this helps us understand so many questions of God. Like how could God allow so much evil and suffering on this earth? But as you've seen now, it's actually the opposite. What we experience on Earth is a greatly reduced amount of evil and suffering, but also the good and the beauty. We get a little taste of heaven and a little taste of hell. And this is the time of choosing. You know, what will we choose? Will we choose to realize that what's wrong here is that God is missing God's will and God's ways are missing. That's why Jesus taught us to pray. Father, your will be done on earth through me as it is in heaven. And we're to pray that because that's not what typically happens on Earth. And God allows this for a short time on this planet because unfortunately it's not. When we experience all the good gifts from God, all the love and the beauty when we're, when we have wealth, you know, that God allowed us and created us to be able to have. We don't typically turn to him in gratitude and say, who can I go thank? No, we say, I'm good, I don't need God. And so unfortunately, it's the pain of hitting rock bottom. It's the pain of realizing something's wrong and why all this evil and suffering. Then we finally look up to say what's missing, what's wrong. But God is pursuing us right to the end. As nd ears say, telling Howard, pray to God, telling yin choose the truth. God does love you. Now that leads to another question. Can people get out of hell? Well, I don't think we can conclude that from NDEs. And here's why. Near death experiences commonly say one consistency is they they knew they came to a, a border or boundary they knew they couldn't cross and still come back to earth. In other words, these NDEs are not crossing over into either eternal life or eternal death. The Bible talks about both. There's something in between. And I think that's why they still can make a choice because they're still somehow tied to earth time, because they are coming back. But when people choose to reject God, it grieves him. You know, God, God cares and it grieves him greatly. In fact, listen, as Erica who's a nurse who had a near death experience and then Randy who's a CEO, how they actually experienced God's grief when he showed them the reality of people rejecting him.

[Swadik]

I was looking at it from an aspect that time didn't exist where I was. So it was totally different than how we view it as humans and just really admiring and loving this moment. Then all of a sudden I feel this feeling that I haven't felt this whole time with God in all of these lessons. I feel this tremendous amount of sadness. And at first I didn't know where it was coming from. I knew it wasn't coming from me. And then as soon as I have that realization, I feel it's almost as if you were a parent and you lost all of your children at once. They all perished. I can't imagine that I'm blessed. I've never had a child that's perished. But that's what it felt like to me. It was so powerful. And then I understood it was coming from God, that feeling of sadness. And I remember looking at God and saying, God, why are you sad? And those Glasses appeared in front of me again, the ones that he made me put on for the life review. The ones that were the size of a vehicle, that I said, it's impossible, God. I can't put those on.

[Kyle Hubbard]

And this is to let you see through his eyes?

[Swadik]

Yes. And God said with me, all things are possible. And God said to me, erica, hand in hand with the gift of life, I give free will. And that's when God explained to me what that really meant. You see, he loves each and every one of us. Not just Erica, not just John, but each and every one of us. If we are living and breathing. We are his creation, and he loves us all that much that his sadness was for the ones that were left behind. And I looked again and I could see some of the souls weren't lifting off. And I came to understand that love connection that we choose to have with God was the fuel, the life force that lifted them off. Having the love connection with God, choosing that, it's free will. But because God loves each and every one of us, so much free will means God doesn't choose for us. God gives us that gift to make the choice if we wanna have that connection, that love connection with our Creator or not. And so that's why he was really sad, is he was grieving for those that were choosing not to have that connection.

[Santosh]

And Jesus was in both places by my side, and he was there. And then Jesus opened up a space where I could see into the world and I saw a cityscape where people were walking and they were just as I would in a cityscape with coffees, you know, going to wherever their destination was, their office or what, and they were just going about and the presence of the Lord didn't seem to be upon them. And the creation that God was pouring forth and Jesus was speaking forth as I had for most of my life as an agnostic. They just. It wasn't. It was not being received by them. They were just going about their ways. And I asked Jesus about that, and he said the separation that he felt from them, those who could not hear his voice grieved him. And then I heard. I heard what I can best describe as a funeral dirge, a sound of moaning through heaven. And it was the cry of the Lord for the lost, for those who had been separated from him. And I know, and I knew it because I felt his heart. He was grieving for them.

[John Burke]

I mean, do you see it? God grieves over those who he created to be his children and yet would reject him. And that in his love he would allow them to, because love requires it. But that's also why God was willing to enter into our suffering, to take the bullet for us. He was crucified on a cross to remove every barrier between you and me and God, except one, our free will. You know, in pride we can say, I don't need you, God, I'm good, or I don't believe and I don't care. Or in humility we can say, God, I want what Jesus did to count for me. I want your love, I want your forgiveness. Come lead and guide my life, life. And it's that simple. You know, I know this has been maybe a troubling podcast for some of you. You know, maybe it's been also, in a weird way, enlightening and hopeful because you, you didn't realize, you can be sure, you know, that heaven is your eternity and, and that you don't have to fear or worry about hell. And, you know, that's why as a pastor as well as a researcher, I'd like to just end this a different way. I'd like to pray. So would you let me and just, I'd encourage you just, you can pray along with me if you want. God, thank you that you are giving testimony to yourself all over the world and that even though we see not just the heavenly, wonderful, beautiful, near death experiences, but also these hellish ones. Thank you that you have assured us that you love every person like your own child and that there's nothing you wouldn't do for us and that that is exactly why you entered the world in a form we could relate to through Jesus. So, God, maybe some people didn't ever realize that and they want to be sure that they will be with you in eternity, that hell will. There's nothing to fear for them. And if that's you, just tell him right now in your heart, he knows your heart. Just say, God, I, I want your forgiveness. I want your love. I want what Jesus did to count for me and God, thank you that you do. You do come to do life with us, to lead us and guide us so that we can be more of that source of light and love that you are to the people around us. Help us to be that in Jesus name we pray. Amen. Well, I hope that this has been at least enlightening to you and I hope hopeful as well, because really, if you understand it, it is, we have nothing to fear when we know what God has done for us and we've accepted it. Well, if you would, I would encourage you to subscribe if you're enjoying these podcasts, or go back to and listen to the other ones. By the way, I'm going to do these in season, so I only have probably a couple more podcasts and then I'm going to take a break. I'm writing a new book, so I'm going to take a break until season two, so be sure to subscribe so you'll know when season two starts. Also, hit the like and the bell and all that, and share it with with your friends. And until next time, be blessed.