Why Would God Let Children Suffer? Crystal McVey’s NDE Reveals a Surprising Answer

Summary

Imagine Heaven Podcast with John Burke Episode: Why Would God Let Children Suffer? Crystal McVey’s NDE Reveals a Surprising Answer
Release Date: June 10, 2025

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Introduction

In this profoundly moving episode of the Imagine Heaven Podcast, host John Burke delves into one of the most challenging theological questions: "Why would God let children suffer?" Drawing from the powerful near-death experience (NDE) of Crystal McVeigh, a schoolteacher from Oklahoma, the discussion explores the intersection of faith, personal tragedy, and the mysteries of the afterlife.

Crystal McVeigh’s Background and Struggles

Crystal McVeigh opens up about her harrowing childhood, marked by severe sexual abuse from the ages of three to twelve. Raised in a small Oklahoma town, her early exposure to church provided a fragile anchor amidst her suffering. At eight years old, Crystal was baptized in multiple denominations, seeking salvation from her torment. However, despite her spiritual efforts, the abuse persisted, leading her to question the very existence and nature of God.

Crystal McVeigh [06:08]: "By the age of eight, my sexual abuse started at the age of three, about between three and four. And so at the age of eight, when it was continuing, I was ready to be saved from that."

As Crystal grew older, the cumulative weight of her abuse eroded her faith. By twelve, she faced the painful reality that perhaps God was either non-existent or, worse, indifferent to her suffering.

Crystal McVeigh [05:45]: "At the age of 12, when the baptisms in my mind hadn't worked, I felt worthless... When I became a mother, I began to hear a quiet voice that told me the only way to solve this issue was to go to an abortion clinic."

The Turning Point: Crisis and NDE

In her late twenties, after enduring tumultuous marriages and raising four children, Crystal faced a life-threatening medical crisis. Diagnosed with acute pancreatitis following an endoscopy, her body failed to filter pain medication, leading to respiratory arrest.

Crystal McVeigh [15:09]: "Yes, everything. My breathing stopped. My heart went out of rhythm."

This critical moment became the catalyst for her NDE, during which Crystal confronted her deepest questions about God's nature and presence amidst suffering.

The Near-Death Experience

Upon her clinical death, Crystal recounts a vivid journey into what she identifies as heaven. She describes a realm suffused with indescribable light and the presence of angels, which she recognizes as her guardian angels—beings who had guided her earthly life unbeknownst to her.

Crystal McVeigh [17:04]: "I remember everything very vividly about that day. I remember opening my eyes and seeing my mom sit at the foot of my bed, and her back was towards me... I remember knowing that I wasn't breathing."

In heaven, Crystal experienced a reality that defied earthly perceptions of time and space. She felt an overwhelming sense of peace devoid of fear, her body liberated from the constraints of physical pain.

Crystal McVeigh [16:16]: "I have been terrified of death my entire life. Like, biggest fear was death. How is it gonna happen? When is it gonna happen? Is it gonna hurt? What's it gonna be like? And instantly, this peace overwhelmed me, comforted me, and there was no fear."

Confronting God and Finding Answers

The crux of Crystal's NDE was her profound encounter with God. Standing in the divine presence, she was enveloped in tangible love and confronted the residual questions of her earthly pain.

Crystal McVeigh [29:15]: "I remember falling to my knees and putting my hands up, and then I couldn't even stay on my knees. I went straight down to my face. And it was out of a reverence. It was out of a love. And instantly as I went down in front of him, I remember I just started crying."

Rather than receiving instant answers to her initial questions about God's goodness, Crystal was shown a deeper understanding of divine love and the role of free will. God communicated with her without words, offering a comprehensive perspective on her suffering and the broader human experience.

Crystal McVeigh [32:54]: "He explained how he gave humans the gift of free will. And if he interferes to help me, then he's also interfering in another human's free will... He does not interfere with the free will that he has given humans."

Revelations and Healing

A pivotal revelation during her NDE was the understanding that her suffering was not a reflection of an unloving God but rather a consequence of human free will. God’s perfection lies in allowing free will, which enables genuine love and moral choices, even though it permits the existence of evil inflicted by humans.

Crystal McVeigh [50:40]: "He healed me, you know, he freed me from the inside out."

This realization liberated Crystal from a lifetime of shame and self-blame, replacing it with an unshakable belief in God's enduring love and presence.

Crystal McVeigh [50:40]: "He healed me, you know, he freed me from the inside out."

The Path Forward: Living with Understanding and Purpose

Upon returning to life, Crystal emerged transformed. Her NDE instilled a profound sense of purpose and forgiveness, particularly towards those who had inflicted pain upon her. She emphasized that while earthly life remains fraught with challenges, her experience assured her of eventual reunion and the fulfillment of divine justice and love.

Crystal McVeigh [56:54]: "He is love. Like I never understood that until I met him, until I stood there, everything through him."

Key Insights and Conclusions

1. Free Will and Divine Love: Crystal’s experience underscores that God’s allowance of free will is fundamental to authentic love and moral agency, even though it permits suffering.

2. Eternal Knowledge vs. Temporal Understanding: NDEs provide a glimpse into a reality where time is non-linear, offering answers that transcend human temporal constraints.

3. Healing Through Divine Encounter: The tangible experience of God's love during NDEs can facilitate profound personal healing and a redefined sense of self-worth.

4. Enduring Relationships Beyond Death: Crystal’s assurance of eternal connection with her children offers comfort to those grappling with loss and the fear of separation.

Notable Quotes

• Crystal McVeigh [16:16]:
  "I have been terrified of death my entire life... and instantly, this peace overwhelmed me, comforted me, and there was no fear."

• Crystal McVeigh [29:15]:
  "I remember falling to my knees and putting my hands up... Instantly as I went down in front of him, I remember I just started crying."

• Crystal McVeigh [32:54]:
  "He explained how he gave humans the gift of free will... He does not interfere with the free will that he has given humans."

• Crystal McVeigh [56:54]:
  "He is love. Like I never understood that until I met him, until I stood there, everything through him."

Final Thoughts

Crystal McVeigh’s story is a testament to the resilience of faith amidst unimaginable suffering. Her NDE offers not just solace but a compelling narrative that bridges the gap between human suffering and divine purpose. John Burke expertly navigates this complex dialogue, providing listeners with both emotional resonance and theological insight.

For those seeking comfort and understanding in their own struggles, Crystal’s journey illuminates the possibility of finding peace and purpose through divine encounter, even in the darkest of times.

Tune in to the Imagine Heaven Podcast to explore more stories that bridge faith, science, and the profound mysteries of the afterlife.

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Note: Advertisements and non-content segments have been omitted to focus on the core discussion between John Burke and Crystal McVeigh.

Transcript

[Teen Advocate]

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[Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids]

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[Crystal McVeigh]

When I died at the age of 33, I died with a lifetime of secrets and shame that went with me. Things that I had never told anybody, especially the sexual abuse that I endured as a child from the ages of 3 to 12. I always thought, you know, if he's real, I've got some questions for him. What kind of God are you? Where are you? How do you love a child and watch that kind of abuse happen? When I died and when I found myself in this beautiful light with angels standing to my left and the presence of God to my right, and I turned to face him, I fell straight to my knees and then went straight to my face and I cried because he touched me, knowing who I was and who I had been. And he wrapped this love around me and I put my hands up and I said, why?

[John Burke]

You know, one of the most challenging accusations that atheists and skeptics level against God is God. If you claim to be this loving father who is all powerful and you claim we're your children and you love us, how in the world could you allow so much evil and suffering for your children? Well, if you've ever asked that question, today you're going to hear a very interesting answer from Crystal McVeigh, who I interviewed, who grew up with a tremendous amount of abuse in her life. And then she got to ask God that very question during her near death experience. Well, I'm John Burke and this is the Imagine Heaven Live series. I'm doing this in between seasons of the Imagine Heaven podcast, which is based on my New York Times best selling book, Imagine Heaven. And so if you haven't watched the episode one through ten of the Imagine Heaven podcast, I hope you'll go back and do that. But in between seasons, I wanted to let you hear from some of my past live interviews that I've done, the full interview. And like I said, today I'm interviewing Crystal McVeigh. She's a schoolteacher in Oklahoma, grew up with a tremendous amount of evil done to her. And you know, I'll tell you, being a pastor for so many years and watching what people can do to other people and especially little kids, and it does just, it breaks your heart and it makes you wonder, God, where are you? What are you doing? And she always wanted to ask God that question. And then during her near death experience, she had a chance listen to what she discovered. Crystal, thanks so much for joining us today.

[Crystal McVeigh]

Thank you for having me. It's nice to see you again.

[John Burke]

I see your teacher board behind you.

[Crystal McVeigh]

So you're still teaching, huh? I teach English to students all over the world.

[John Burke]

Oh, that's awesome. Well, why don't you start in just giving us a little of the background of your story because I think it's really important in setting up really why you had that question for God.

[Crystal McVeigh]

Sure. So I was born and raised in a small town in southwest Oklahoma. The question wasn't, do you go to church? It was, what church do you go to? And at 8 years old, I heard the altar call and I was down at the front before the pastor could even finish. And at 8 years old, the words that caught my attention were, if you accept Jesus, he will save you. And what nobody knew at that time and what nobody would know until I was well into my 30s, was that what I needed Jesus to save me from was years of sexual abuse that I had been enduring. And so I was baptized in my.

[John Burke]

Church by the age of eight years.

[Crystal McVeigh]

By the age of eight, my sexual abuse started at the age of three, about between three and four. And so at the age of eight, when it was continuing, I was ready to be saved from that. And I can remember going into the water that night and coming out and feeling clean, because that's what God does. He makes us clean. But the world has a way of reminding us or bringing that dirt back to us. And as a child, I didn't realize that Jesus was saving my eternity. And so because the abuse continued, I continued to be baptized. And by the age of 12, I was baptized four times in three different denominations. So, I mean, I was running the gamut. I was going to find the one that was going to work. And unfortunately, at the age of 12, when the abuse continued, I knew that I had a choice that maybe God wasn't real or worse than that for me was maybe he is real and he just doesn't love me.

[John Burke]

Well, first of all, I'm so sorry that you went endured that. I mean, it's horrific and I can. I mean, it makes total sense that that would be the conclusion you would come to. And I know you know, knowing a little bit of your story, it led you down a difficult path as well. Tell us a little of that.

[Crystal McVeigh]

Yes, sir. At the age of 12, when the baptisms in my mind hadn't worked, I felt worthless. And I often say that when you feel worthless, you act as if you have no worth. And so I had been taught at an early age that my body was not something to be treasured, that I was not something to be treasured. So I was pregnant with my first child by the age of 17. And at the age of 19, when I found myself pregnant again, terrified for my family to know because they had stood by me through my first pregnancy, I began to hear a quiet voice that told me the only way to solve this issue was to go to an abortion clinic. It would take me almost 20 years before I would tell a soul about that day. And I can remember walking into the clinic that day, John, and looking across the street and seeing people holding signs. What I needed that day more than anything was I needed somebody to come and hold me. I have never felt more alone. And when I left the clinic that. That afternoon, I remember thinking, well, you've done it now. Like, if he's real. If he's real, he would never love someone like you. And that's how I lived my 20s. Married and divorced at a very young age. By the age of 23, I had two precious babies and a failing belief that God was this good, loving God. I believed more of the scary God, the vengeful God, the one who would punish. When I would go to church, John, and they would talk about God as a loving father, that just didn't compute for me. My parents were divorced. My father was out of my life because of the divorce. We saw each other once a year, twice a year. My stepfather was. Had some drug and alcohol issues, was very abusive due to hurts and pains in his own life. And so a loving father was not something that computed with me at all. And that would be how I would live through my twenties until I met and married the first Christian man that I had ever dated when I was 28 years old. And that's when my relationship with God actually started to change.

[John Burke]

So I know, you know, you told me your. Your big question, like, you literally would say, well, if. If I ever. If God is real, if I ever see him, I'm going to ask him. And it's the question everybody asks, right?

[Crystal McVeigh]

Yes.

[John Burke]

What was it?

[Crystal McVeigh]

I wanted to know what kind of God Are you? What kind of God would have allowed a three year old to go through what I went through? And not only me, but one in four girls are sexually assaulted by the age of 18. I wanted to know, if you're so loving, where were you? And I really started to question him as a father when I became a mother.

[John Burke]

Mm. Yeah. And that makes total sense. I mean, and I think that is why it is the number one question. And part of what drives people away from God the most probably is when, you know, when we experience the evils of this world and then we're like, okay, where are you? If you. If you love me so much? So all that changed, you said, the day you died, why don't you take us, Take us to that day. What happened? Tell us why? What went on from there?

[Crystal McVeigh]

Sure. So my husband and I had been married for five years. We had just welcomed our twins, Willow and Micah, earlier that year. The twins were born four months early. And so I depict in my book just the struggle I really had with God during all of that, not knowing if our twins were going to survive. Was this punishment, you know, for what I had done as a teenager. So I wrestled with all of that. And we came home with the twins after being in the hospital for about four and a half months. And I just developed breathing issues, which later were diagnosed as just some anxiety. But at the time, we didn't know.

[John Burke]

I'm sorry, I don't. I don't mean to interrupt, but I've read, you know, I've read your book, and you've got to tell, okay, the baby. Tell how? Yeah, how many times you tested God, and he comes here and still not enough.

[Crystal McVeigh]

And this is. This is who I am, right? And so I can remember trying to get pregnant with the twins. And I said, okay, God, I'll know you're real if we get pregnant. And so we went through IVF and we got pregnant. And then I said, okay, well, know you're real if it's twins. And so I think week five, we had our ultrasound and they started counting babies. And I can remember my husband, who's the most gorgeous black man, you know, you'll ever see, and he turned as white as me and just said, please stop counting. And so they stopped at 2. And I remember going home that evening and going, no, this was a coincidence. I'll know you're real if it's a boy and a girl. So we found out we were having a boy and a girl. And what was happening was I was setting up these Hurdles for God to prove to me that he was real. But the problem was, is that if he was real, it didn't answer the biggest question that I had in my heart. And I was almost afraid for him to be real, John, because then it goes back to, where were you? And so sorry. Gets me every time, talking about my babies. And so I said, okay, I'll know you're real if one has blue eyes and one has green. My husband has dark brown eyes. You know, it's recessive, usually in the male genes. And so when the twins were born, they were born weighing two pounds each. We weren't sure that one or both would ever come home with us. And it was 12 days before we could hold them. And Virgil and I had actually quit praying on the exact same day. Virgil's prayer ended with, father your will be done. And my prayer ended with, I will hate you for the rest of my life if anything happens to my children. I mean, so clearly, we're on two different spiritual. And so I held Micah that morning, and just for a second, he opened his eyes. And I held Willow later that evening, and she opened her eyes, and Micah has the most beautiful green eyes or blue eyes. And Willow's eyes were blue or green. I'm sorry. And I can remember just looking. And I have pictures of their eyes. I keep them on my. On my computer to remind myself. But what happened in that moment was.

[John Burke]

Like, so God answered your prayer, which he, by the way, just as a pastor, I wouldn't advise that.

[Crystal McVeigh]

Right.

[John Burke]

But let me say this, though. At the same time, I've also seen that God knows what we have gone through and meets us in ways that will speak to us, to let us know that he does love us. But, I mean, it doesn't take away, though, that struggle. Right. And that's what you still felt.

[Crystal McVeigh]

Yes. And it added so many questions. And I say that I had God right there, and I just let him slip through my fingers because I just allowed myself to believe that it was just coincidental, you know? And so six months after we had gotten home from the hospital, my twins were 10 months old. I went in for a routine procedure, an endoscopy, where they put the. They'll put a tube and just to check for some breathing issues. And I woke up with acute pancreatitis. Like, everything that could have gone wrong, and the procedure went wrong. So they hospitalized me for a few days and said, you know, this is all routine. You'll be here for three or four days on a pain pump. And Then you'll go home. And I was about an hour away from my home, and I can remember waking up two days into the hospital stay, and I remember calling my mom and saying, please come be with me. And I remember saying, I'm dying. Like, I'm dying. And I remember her saying, stop being so dramatic. Be there shortly. And so she got to the hospital, and a few hours after she was there with me, I went into respiratory arrest and coded. And so for me, the experience is so much different than what my mom experienced.

[John Burke]

So your heart stopped beating?

[Crystal McVeigh]

Yes, everything. My breathing stopped. My heart went out of rhythm. What had happened was my body just could not filter the pain medication that I was receiving, and so it just sent me into respiratory rest. So I remember. I remember everything very vividly about that day. I remember opening my eyes and seeing my mom sit at the foot of my bed, and her back was towards me, and she was reading a magazine. And I remember instantly knowing that my heart had just stopped. And I remember knowing I wasn't breathing.

[Teen Advocate]

Use of flavored tobacco by teens is a crisis. Tobacco companies use flavors like cotton candy, watermelon ice, and cool mint to hook kids like me. They seem harmless, but they aren't. Addiction to nicotine sets us up for a lifetime of health problems. Organ legislators can do something about it. Passing Senate Bill 702A will keep flavored tobacco away from kids. But there are just a few short weeks left for lawmakers to act, take action to protect kids like me. @ flavorshookorgankids.org paid for by the Campaign.

[Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids]

For Tobacco Free Kids Action Fund.

[Crystal McVeigh]

And I have been terrified of death my entire life. Like, biggest fear was death. How is it gonna happen? When is it gonna happen? Is it gonna hurt? What's it gonna be like? And instantly, this peace overwhelmed me, comforted me, and there was no fear. And with the last little breath I had in my lungs, I said I love you to my mom. And then I closed my eyes and instantly opened them and was standing in heaven. I just. It. Every time I talk about it, it just takes me right back there. And so, you know, I say that instantly I woke up heaven.

[John Burke]

What? I mean, tell us a little bit of what. Where.

[Crystal McVeigh]

Where were you?

[John Burke]

What did you see? What happened?

[Crystal McVeigh]

Sure, for me, everything happened simultaneously. But on Earth, we have to tell things in a sequence. And so I remember experience.

[John Burke]

You experienced time being different, and.

[Crystal McVeigh]

Yeah, yes, I experienced no time like that. I remember knowing that there was no rush. It was as if there was no time. Everything was flooded to me instantly. All knowledge, which I do try to remind my husband occasionally that at one point I actually did know everything. Thank you very much. All knowledge. He just laughs. But, you know, all knowledge was downloaded instantly. I knew where I was, I knew who I was, which I say I was still crystal. I was still the same crystal that had just died in that hospital room that the doctors and nurses were performing CPR on to bring back. And yet I was the most perfect version of myself standing in this light. No negativity whatsoever was attached to me. And I can. Yeah, go ahead.

[John Burke]

Yeah. I just wanted to mention, you know, for some people listening, that what you just said is a commonality and something that the Apostle Paul, I think, writes about in 1st Corinthians 13. And as I mentioned, I think Paul had one of these near death experiences that he recorded. Acts 14 and 2nd Corinthians 12. He talks about being taken up into heaven and he says, you know, in First Corinthians 13 that, you know, right now we see in a mirror dimly, but then we will see face to face, then we will fully know, just as we are fully known.

[Crystal McVeigh]

Yeah.

[John Burke]

And it's like you said, you experience that.

[Crystal McVeigh]

Yes.

[John Burke]

And Paul also says, though, that he heard things people are not allowed to tell.

[Crystal McVeigh]

Mm.

[John Burke]

Which you've told me when you came back.

[Crystal McVeigh]

Yep.

[John Burke]

You don't still have all that.

[Crystal McVeigh]

Right.

[John Burke]

Which I'm sure Virgil uses to remind you with. Right. Yeah. You didn't get to keep that.

[Crystal McVeigh]

I remember all of the knowledge being flooded. I remember knowing that I was the same me that had existed. And I use the word, I say I was the same me that existed for all of eternity. And. Whoa. I had some backlash from was saying that. And I had never read the Bible, John. I had grown up in church, but I had never read the Bible myself. And when I came across the verse that said, for I've known you before I knitted you in your mother's womb, that is the me that was standing there, the me that he created before I became the human form of myself. My spirit is what was standing in front of him.

[John Burke]

Yeah. Because I've heard you guys say that. And I was trying to piece it together with how does this fit with what the scripture says? But I thought about, well, if we are created in the image of God and come from the mind of God, who created us before time, and you're experiencing God in a timelessness and connected to a knowledge and understanding, then it's just different than we experience ourselves now. We experience ourselves through time.

[Crystal McVeigh]

Yes. And that Was. What was so different about this experience was, you know, here I teach my students about our five senses. But there it was as if I had a hundred senses, a hundred different ways to interact with the universe and the reality around me. And I remember knowing that that was actually my reality. It was almost as if my earthly life is the dream state and this heaven that I was standing in was actually my real reality. Which gives me the sense of when people say they've gone home, they've gone home to be with the Lord. That's exactly what I mean by that was my reality. That was my home.

[John Burke]

I wonder. I wonder. And it has. I. It has to do with nearly 90%.

[Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids]

Of kids who vape say flavors are why they do it.

[Teen Advocate]

A lot of the flavors that I've heard are like peach, mango, watermelon. It makes it seem like more childlike and innocent. Oh, if I try this once, it won't be that much of a problem. But then eventually it becomes a problem.

[Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids]

It's time to restrict the sale of flavored tobacco products in Oregon and protect our kids from nicotine addiction. Urge lawmakers to pass Senate Bill 702A. Take take action at flavorshookoregonkids.org, paid for by the Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids Action Fund.

[John Burke]

Something I'll explain that my postulation or postulating what is this life? Is that the life we were created for, the eternal life we were created for, is a hundred x and then we get put into this world and it goes down to five. Five senses. Right. So it's actually a very limited experience, it seems to me, of both heaven and hell. Like a temporal, time bound experience of both.

[Crystal McVeigh]

Yes, very much so. I remember feeling very free also without the restraints of my physical body. I can just remember just feeling so light and free instantly. And let me describe what I saw was I described myself as standing in a tunnel. But when we say tunnel, we think of like this darkness. But the entire tunnel was made of the most gorgeous light that I could ever describe. And not just a light that you could see, but a light that communicated a light that I could feel that I was connected with. And then I had two angels that were standing in front of me and to my left. And they didn't look to me like angels, like I would depict with like big wings and halos. Actually, to me, they. I could see the silhouette. They were human, like. And the one on the left was a little bit taller than the one on the right. But what I saw was like, almost, if you look At a light bulb. And you can see the outline of the light bulb, but you can't see what's in it because of the light radiating off of it. And so that's what I saw with the angels.

[John Burke]

So there was light coming out of them, is that what you're saying?

[Crystal McVeigh]

Yes. And what I would come to learn is that this light source that was running through me and around me and radiating off of the floors of this tunnel and radiating off of the angels was the. Was his source. It was God himself. And I remember instantly being so excited to see my angels.

[John Burke]

How did you know they were angels?

[Crystal McVeigh]

Because I knew everything. Remember, I told you I had no questions. I knew that I had known them. Not on this. On this life, not on this Earth. I knew that I had known them for as long as. As I had been in existence. I use the term guardian angels because that's the closest I can really think of to explaining it is they were mine. These two that I met are only mine. They're not yours. You probably. You have your own. And I knew that they had been with me, you know, through my entire journey. It's almost like when you go to take a class or something and they assign you a mentor, you know, that kind of follows up and sticks with you. That's kind of like what they were for me here on Earth. I just didn't know that they were there. And I remember that they were excited that I could finally see them and hear them. And I just remember loving them so much, John. Like these. They have to be my very best friends, you know, like to love me and know me better than anybody on this earth does. They were so excited. And we began to talk, but it was not with words. It was all through feelings and thoughts. And we stood there and just talked for what felt like the longest time. And I was just, like, rambling a mile a minute, you know, trying to get everything out. You think I talk a lot as a human. Whoo. You should have seen me when I didn't have to use words. And so just the way that we communicated was so vastly different from anything that I had ever imagined.

[John Burke]

And so you're talking with them, and I think, you know, again, for some. Some of the things you. You say. And when I heard, I would initially go, wait a second. You knew them, you know, for eternity. What does that mean? You know, because we come into existence and. But again, and I don't know, but is it. Is it that you are. You are experiencing a timelessness, and so we can only Talk. The way I like to describe it after listening to so many of you guys try to describe it, is that it's like trying to describe three dimensions to two dimensional creatures.

[Crystal McVeigh]

I always say, well, there's this another language.

[John Burke]

Yeah. Like you can only go forward and back and side to side and you're trying to explain, well, but there's an in and an out, there's an up and a down, and they're like, that makes no sense.

[Crystal McVeigh]

That was the hardest part for me, John, was when I did come back, having that kind of communication and that kind of knowledge and then coming back into my human form that could not express. Like my daughter to this day, she's 11 now, and she'll say, mom, tell me again about the colors you saw. And I'd say, well, honey, I can't describe them because we don't have them here. You know, like, she'll go, we'll try to explain what it looked like. I said, baby, there's no color on this earth that I could even compare. I mean, that's how hard it is to explain things.

[John Burke]

Yeah. And I've talked about how it's, you know, the colors of earth are the, are the breakdown of the light spectrum of the sun, but the colors of heaven are the breakdown of the light spectrum of God. Of the glory. Of the glory and the light of God. So you said that was the light. Did you experience the presence of God?

[Crystal McVeigh]

I did. And so as I was speaking with the angels and we were talking, I became aware of a presence to my right, which I know had been there, but my awareness just came and I turned to face this presence and immediately my spirit recognized him. I say, like, I didn't meet God. I recognized him. And so this goes back to us talking about, well, how do you say you existed before you existed here? Well, I was standing in front of the entity that created me. I mean, can you imagine? And as soon as I faced. And I describe him as light, and there's another word that I wish that I had more detail because it's not any kind of light we've ever seen here, but I saw him and I fell straight to my knees. And I remember this is, this is pivotal to me because I raised my hands. Now, I've been raised mostly Baptist and Methodist, and we didn't raise our hands in church. I had never praised like that. In fact, I was the person in church that when they play another song, I'd be like, okay, another song. You know, like I was, I know.

[John Burke]

You know, some, some People talk about how, you know, gosh, we'll just worship God forever in heaven. And I'll tell you, I mean, I know even as a pastor, I'm like, oh, a church service forever. It's like.

[Crystal McVeigh]

Yeah, that's the funny part is so you understand where I was, who I was. And I remember falling to my knees and putting my hands up, and then I couldn't even stay on my knees. I went straight down to my face. And it was out of a reverence. It was out of a love. And instantly as I went down in front of him, I remember I just started crying. And he wrapped me in this tangible light, this tangible love that, I mean, I could feel. And I went back to. If God was real. Let's just go back to walking out of the clinic that day at 19 years old. If God is real. I had some questions. One, what kind of God are you? Why are you so punishing? Why are you so vengeful? Where. Where are you? You know, I had become a mom of four children. How could you say that you love me and yet stand by why, while horrible atrocities were committed, you know, to such an innocent child? And as I raised my hands and I opened my mouth, I said, why didn't I do more for you? And I'm so glad that God allowed me to remember that, John, because in that moment with all that knowledge flooded into my spirit. And we talked earlier about, you know, did I have a life review? I would call that my life review that in an instant, the only question I had for him was one of regret. Why didn't I do more for you?

[John Burke]

So that's probably confusing to people.

[Crystal McVeigh]

Yeah.

[John Burke]

You know, so you got to go. You got to go deeper into that. What do you mean? So you. What were you feeling? What were you seeing? What were you understanding that instead of. You're saying. Instead of the question you had always said, if I could ask God, yeah, I would, you know, kind of.

[Crystal McVeigh]

Yeah.

[John Burke]

Why did you allow this? You ask a different question. But how did that.

[Crystal McVeigh]

Why did I. Yeah, I think because. And I'll take you through the rest of the process, because, like I said, I tell the story in a chronological order. However, it happened simultaneously. Right. So I tell it in an order. So one of the reasons that most likely I said, why didn't I do more for you? Was because all of the questions that I had had were answered instantly. The minute that I arrived in my spirit form, I had no questions. You could have asked me how God was created. I think I might have been able to tell you, you know, like any kind of question. So any of those questions that I held inside had already been answered to my spirit.

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[Crystal McVeigh]

However, I remember him not saying anything, but yet we were talking the entire time, again with that communication, without words. I remember being in awe of him. And here was the funny part. I remember reaching my hand out because I could not get close enough to him, and yet he was all around me. He had enveloped me with himself, almost as a cocoon, a blanket. And I remember as I was trying to get closer, even, I said, I could worship you for all of eternity. Now, that is not something that Crystal would have ever said, because four songs in church and I was kind of done. And here I was saying I could lay and worship you for all of eternity.

[John Burke]

Well, and I think that's a great. It's a great point that's helped me understand what true worship is, you know, because people say to me, as a pastor, they'll say, what kind of egomaniac is God that he demands our worship? Well, it's not like that at all. It's more like if you are so overwhelmed with joy and love and, you know, like, what do you do with it? What do you do with it except kind of shout for joy? And it is more like that, right?

[Crystal McVeigh]

Yes. And that is exactly what it felt like. That is why I couldn't stay on my feet. I couldn't stay on my knees. Remember hearing this song? I can only imagine the first time that I had to come back, you know, and the part where it said, in your will I stand in your presence, or to my knees will I fall? And I'm like, oh, no, you go straight to your face. Like, I had just never been in. I had never experienced such love, such goodness. And so I can remember in that instance, as I was laying there worshiping him, I talking, I looked down the end of this tunnel, and I could see that at the very end, it became very bright. And like I said, I didn't really have any questions. I knew that that was the entrance to heaven. I didn't see any big gates, but once I noticed it, he said, once we get there, you can't come back. And he showed me in that moment my children, all four of my children, they were 13, 11, the twins were 10 months old.

[John Burke]

So you were, you were seeing your kids currently?

[Crystal McVeigh]

Yes.

[John Burke]

And the end of that tunnel. So I talk about there a border or a boundary that we, yes, you know, on. Did you have any sense of what that was?

[Crystal McVeigh]

I just knew that once I crossed it, that's when, when I noticed it and I knew that that was the entrance to heaven, which people say, well then why do you say you were in heaven? I was like, well, I don't know what to call this place. It was with God and it, to me that's heaven.

[John Burke]

And I do think that's a. I don't really have the answer after studying a thousand of these cases that. Because sometimes God. One person I interviewed a couple weeks ago said Jesus told her, you haven't died yet. But clinically she was dead dead. Right? And so what is this? And you know, I kind of postulate that it is something in between and that crossing over. And importantly, I think it's why we can't, we can't say we know what the afterlife is like just from near death experiences.

[Crystal McVeigh]

Right?

[John Burke]

That's really where we have to go to. Well, what is God revealed through history, through Jesus? Because you guys are validating the God of Jesus, right? I mean, is that who you experienced?

[Crystal McVeigh]

You know, and that's what I tell people is they'll say, but you didn't see Jesus. And I said, I didn't see him in his human form. But the way that I explain it, my husband explained the Trinity me year the Trinity to me years ago. And it's the only way I've ever been able to explain what I experienced is, is that if you're holding an egg, you're holding one egg, but it's made up of three separate parts, but yet all three parts are their own entity. And yet they create the one egg. And so to me, that was what I experienced. I experienced the Trinity. I was raised a Christian. I absolutely believe that Jesus was who he said he was. And when I go back and read his words, the God that he speaks about is the God that I met. And so no, I didn't see him in his human form, but I interchange God and Jesus a lot when I tell my story.

[John Burke]

So go back, you were saying, so God says to you, you can't go beyond that and still go back. And then why did he show you your kids?

[Crystal McVeigh]

So as soon as I saw the entrance, the end of this tunnel that we were in, he said, once we get there, you can't go back. He showed me my children. And in that instance, he reminded me of a time when I was sitting in church. And because I went to church my whole life, right. I just didn't believe anything that they were saying. So.

[John Burke]

That'S not awesome. I guess that's Oklahoma.

[Crystal McVeigh]

Yeah, it was. Like I said, it wasn't.

[John Burke]

Have a hard enough time. Have a hard enough time getting people who do believe to come to church, much less those who don't.

[Crystal McVeigh]

I know. And here's the thing. Like, they did an interview years ago on 700 Club, and Pat Robinson called me a former atheist. And honestly, I've always known. I've always known he was real. What I doubted was that he was good enough to love me, right? And so really, that was my struggle through church. So he reminded me of a time that nobody else knew about where our pastor was talking about, that we are to love God above all else, that we are to love God more than anything. And I remember in my head telling God, if you're real, I'd never love you more than my kids. And you think about. And remember I said becoming a mom was really what also sparked my struggle with God. Because here I've experienced what it feels like to have a child and just the links that you would go to that you would lay your life down, you know, for them. And so he showed me that the plan for their life, all of their lives, was perfect. So I say that here, and it doesn't make any sense, because the plan that he has for each of our lives is perfect. But what he showed me was that his perfection does not mean that we will not have sorrow and hurt and tribulations and that things will not be done to hurt us. His perfection is that in the end, no matter what, he takes it all and uses it for good, for his glory. And that's something that we will never understand until we are standing with him again, you know, in eternity.

[John Burke]

But you saw that. You experienced that.

[Crystal McVeigh]

And I did. I experienced it through the life of my four children. And something very pivotal that I remember was I knew that I was not truly leaving them, which I think that this is really important for anybody that's watching that has lost someone that they are very close to or parent who's lost A child or a spouse. But I knew that I was not really leaving my kids. I knew that I was leaving them physically, but that I was going to experience every moment of their lives with them. Almost more so, in a way, I knew that I wasn't gonna miss a thing, and I knew that I was going to see them again. And so people have said, well, how do you know you were gonna see them again? How do you know that they were going, you know, to even go to heaven? And I said, well, because God told me. I don't know what else to say. You know, both my older kids had a relationship with the Lord. My babies were babies. All I know is that God told me we were all going to be together again.

[John Burke]

Well, and some might hear that almost like. Like there's no free will. But you. You told me you experienced something different even with that talk. Talk about that.

[Teen Advocate]

Yes.

[Crystal McVeigh]

And so in that moment, you know, I. He said, you can go back and be their mom or you can continue with me. And I remember looking at my kids, and I remember looking at him and I said, I want to go with you. And so that was the first time in my entire life that I truly chose God above all else. Like, I know what that feels like now. When I came back, John, and told that story, my older kids were like, wait, what? Like, you chose not to come back? Yeah. And so I've explained. I mean, just the love, the love that we have for him, John, it surpasses the love you have for your children, your grandchild. Can you imagine loving something more than her?

[John Burke]

You know, I think what I have come to realize over the years is that all the love I have for my children, for my wife, is derivative. In other words, I have nothing. I have no love. Love comes from God. So I'm just getting to taste a little bit of what real love is. And so that's what you're. Yes, and it's probably. I've probably come to that because I've talked. I've heard so many of you know that. And it's all right in the Bible, right? Yeah, but somehow it's hard to grasp.

[Crystal McVeigh]

It is. It is because we go back to the free will. And so instantly, the vision of my kids was gone. We continued towards the entry point into the heaven realm. God walking on my right, my angels to my left, up ahead of me. And the entire time, God and I are just, like, talking. I mean, just everything.

[John Burke]

What are you talking about?

[Crystal McVeigh]

I don't.

[Teen Advocate]

I don't remember.

[Crystal McVeigh]

But we never stopped. And like, people that know me go, that sounds familiar. Like, she never stops talking.

[John Burke]

So, okay, so I have a question, because were you. Were you getting new information and knowledge as you were going on talking?

[Crystal McVeigh]

I mean, we spoke the entire time. Like, the entire time. But remember, I really didn't have any questions because I knew it all, like, well.

[John Burke]

And again, I think it's so hard to. Because I've struggled as a pastor with some of you guys saying that, because I'm like, well, only God knows everything.

[Crystal McVeigh]

I knew everything I needed to know.

[John Burke]

Well. And I think that's what I've come to conclude is like. Because I've also heard people keep talking about, well, you keep learning because there's, you know, I mean, the exploration of heaven and God's creation. You didn't know yet what you hadn't seen, and yet there's still stuff to see.

[Crystal McVeigh]

Yes, I know everything. That's what I knew. Everything to the capacity that Crystal needed to know that questions that Crystal had, you know?

[John Burke]

Well, and that's why I think it does tie right into what Paul says in First Corinthians 13, that we will, you know, know fully as we're fully known. It's like all those questions. Yeah.

[Crystal McVeigh]

Yeah. Well, we continued to walk towards the end of the tunnel, and as we got closer, I noticed this little girl up in front of me. And she was so different than anything that I had seen in this realm. She was fully human. And I would say she was 3 or 4. She wore this white, like, frilly dress with little yellow flowers. And the yellow from the flowers would prism, you know, with him with his light all around. And she had this little basket, and she would dip it into the light and then dump the basket out. And the light would just cascade like water. And the thing that got me, though, is that she would throw her little head back and just laugh this laugh. And I remember instantly knowing, like, she's mine. You know, like, if you're gonna stake claims to something like that, she's mine. And I remember loving this child so much, and I started just trying to get to her as fast as I could. And the whole time I'm just watching her play and smile. And something started to happen to my spirit. I started to. It was almost as if my spirit spirit was being blown up like a balloon, but with love. Like, I've never felt love like this. And as I got close to her, I remember saying out loud, I'm going to explode because I could not take one more bit of love for her. And I was okay with exploding into a million pieces because I couldn't take my eyes off of her. And I remember right before I scooped her up, I just wanted to scoop her up in my arms and tell her how much I loved her and how precious she was and valuable she was and how. How perfect she was. And right before I got to that point, I was almost like I was wearing glasses. And God removed the way that I was viewing her from me. And I stopped, and I looked back down at her, and I recognized her immediately, and I recognized her as me. And in an instance, everything. You know, God explained everything. He said, I have tried to tell you this your entire life. I have tried to show you your entire life. You know, it was one thing to say, I love you, but he allowed me to view myself through his eyes. Because at the age of three and four, when the sexual abuse began, when the evil came in, and all through those years, until I was 12, when I would call out to him and say, where are you? And then the main question, like, if you loved me so much, why would you let that happen? What he showed me in that moment was that he does not interfere with the free will that he has given humans. That he was with me when I called out, that every moment of my life, he never left. When I was in that dark room every Thursday night, He was there. I had felt alone my entire life. But to know that this God, who could have not even looked upon what was happening to me, not only looked upon it, but sat with me so that when I went through this earthly pain at the hands of another human, that I did not do so alone. And the other thing. I'm sorry, John.

[John Burke]

Well, I just. I think people might be thinking, like, well, so what? You still went through it. How did that help?

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[Teen Advocate]

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[Crystal McVeigh]

I don't know exactly how he. Word for word, how he explained it to me, but he explained how he gave humans the gift of Free will. And if he interferes to help me, then he's also interfering in another human's free will. Whether our free will is not just for us to do good things, you know, we do not so great things because of our free will. And if he interferes with that free will, then we become nothing more than puppets, you know. And so what he explained to me was that was not hurt at the hands of an unloving God. I was hurt at the hands of a human that was experiencing, you know, or dictating through their own free will.

[John Burke]

Well, and going against God's will.

[Crystal McVeigh]

Yes, exactly. And that was the other thing, is that free will and God's will, our ways and his ways, they're so different. That's why the perfection, when I say he said that he showed me our lives are perfect. If you would have told me that before I experienced him, I would have had a lot of things to ask you. What's so perfect about this happening or that. But what he did in that moment was he freed me from a lifetime of shame. Because a lot of victims, especially of childhood, you know, sexual abuse, you take it on, it becomes. It became to me a part of my identity. It became a darkness, a voice constantly in my mind telling me how worthless I was. I deserved it. I was bad. Something was wrong with me. And what he did in that moment, John, was something that therapy had never been able to do for me. And he healed me, you know, he freed me from the inside out.

[John Burke]

In what way?

[Crystal McVeigh]

And in the way that bad things can continue to happen in my life. But what they cannot do any longer is take away the belief and the knowledge that I know that God is a loving God, that he is a loving father. That was the thing I wrestled with my entire life, John, was, if you're such a good, loving father, how can you, or where are you? And he showed me, I'm with you.

[John Burke]

And so that that healed your sense of identity?

[Crystal McVeigh]

Very much so.

[John Burke]

And the shame that went along with the abuse that you realized was not his will. You know, it's why I'm, you know, I often remind. And even during the series, you know, the application of this series is Jesus taught us to pray. Father in heaven, holy is your name. Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Meaning his will is not done on earth. Not unless we choose to be the conduits through which it can be done.

[Crystal McVeigh]

Yes, I completely agree.

[John Burke]

And that he gives us free will so that we can love God. You can't love without free Will, you can't force love.

[Crystal McVeigh]

Right. And that was the other thing that brings me to this is so growing up, I. Well, I love Jesus, right. I wanted to know everything about him. God scared me. Literally scared me to death. I viewed him as angry, vengeful, judgmental, very terrified of him.

[John Burke]

So you. Meaning you separated God and Jesus?

[Crystal McVeigh]

Yeah, yeah, as a child.

[John Burke]

Okay.

[Crystal McVeigh]

God scared me. Jesus was somebody I wanted to. Without that free will, I would not have been able to choose him on my own account. People often will say, you know, why do we face so much, you know, evil or darkness here? How do we. How do we recognize or be able to choose God without, like, the ying and the yang, you know, like.

[John Burke]

Well, without our ability to write, you can't.

[Crystal McVeigh]

You have to have a choice.

[John Burke]

You can't freely choose to love someone if you can also freely choose not to.

[Crystal McVeigh]

Exactly. And that's what I remember. That's what I take out of this whole process is what he reminds me of, is that I do love him. And, you know, in that moment, I remember and somebody said to me, they said, you know, I just knew when I was reading your book, I just knew that God brought you to heaven to meet your child. As much as I can't wait to hold that child and scoop that child up and tell them how much they're loved, you know, I just look at people and say, no, God brought me to heaven to meet his. I had no idea that I was his, you know, that I belong to him. And. And that's something that we have to hold on to. And I'll just touch really briefly, but, you know, 10 years later, you know, life goes on, and me having this experience does not make life perfect. When Two years ago, when my husband, who suffers from PTSD and is an army veteran, tried to take his own life. You know, you talk about calling out to God and saying, where are you? I know he's there. I know he's good. And I still wrestle, you know, so when we know it doesn't make our.

[John Burke]

Lives perfect, I think that's actually very encouraging because it helps people realize that even though you've had this experience, when you're back in this world where God's will is not done and it is veiled. And I. And I personally think that what we are going through is a limited experience of what we were created for, but we are experiencing a taste of heaven and a taste of hell because now is the time of choosing, and our free will and our choices do matter. But the whole message of Jesus Is God so loved every one of us that Jesus came and paid for all our wrongs? Yes, we do wrongs, but God loves us so much. He made it so simple that any who want him and turn back and you know, really truly want his forgiveness. Heaven's a gift. And did you experience that's what you experienced?

[Crystal McVeigh]

Very much so. I touch on a couple of points in the book. Right before I died, we were going through a lawsuit with somebody who had business deal that had gone wrong, had left, you know, a significant amount of money on us to pay. So we're in the middle of lawsuits. When I came out of my experience, the first thing I told my husband was to drop the lawsuit, that we would pay the debt. And so Virgil say, okay. That's when I knew like she was telling the truth, you know, because I was very selfish human being. The other thing that changed was harbored no hatred in my heart for the person, people who had hurt me. In fact, I began to pray for these people because I cannot fathom even my worst enemy, the person who's hurt me. I don't really have any enemies anymore, just the person who's hurt me the most. I want that person to experience the eternity of God. Like that's how life changing he is.

[John Burke]

I guess, because you realize he is what's missing.

[Crystal McVeigh]

And he. He is love. Like I never understood that until I met him, until I stood there, everything through him. Like you were saying, we can love. I love because you first loved me, that his love funnels through us. I've never touched love. I felt love, but on this earth I've never touched it. But with him, I touched the face of love. And it's just, I can't even imagine one person not getting to experience that.

[John Burke]

So, Crystal, we need to wrap up. But you know, as a wife and a mother of four kids, and here we are in the midst of coronavirus. You know, a life where things don't all always go right. What would you say to parents today?

[Crystal McVeigh]

The number one thing that I hold on to is that I don't have the right words, but that he is with us. Even when we feel John, that he's not. Even when we feel completely alone, he's with us. And more than anything, he is in the midst of all of this and that he loves us more than we could ever comprehend. But the biggest, biggest thing that I take away from him is that this is not it. This is just our beginning, like the best is yet to come.

[John Burke]

Well, that's a great way to Wrap it up. Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us. Really, really appreciate it, Crystal.

[Crystal McVeigh]

Thank you, John.

[John Burke]

Blessings. Well, I hope you were inspired by this Imagine Heaven Live series interview with Crystal McVeigh. Her story is both incredibly tragic but also incredibly inspiring because we all have those questions. And even though we might not have the full answer on this side of eternity, to hear others and I've heard many like her say, in God's presence, it all made sense. Now how it all made sense, I still can't put it all together. And yet what we can know for sure is that God does not do those evil, horrible things, but he does allow us to have a free will. And one day he will bring justice. And to all who turn to him, he'll bring redemption. So I hope that inspires you, like Crystal, to live with forgiveness and to live bringing God's love and goodness to to the world because that's what's needed to combat evil. Well, if you want to dive deeper into near death experiences and the Bible and how they relate, you can read Imagine Heaven or Imagine the God of Heaven or go check out the Imagine Heaven podcast. And until next time, be blessed.

[Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids]

Nearly 90% of kids who vape say flavors are why they do it.

[Teen Advocate]

A lot of the flavors that I've heard are like peach, mango, watermelon. It makes it seem like more childlike and innocent. Oh, if I try this once, it won't be that much of a problem. But then eventually it becomes a problem.

[Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids]

It's time to restrict the sale of flavored tobacco products in Oregon and protect our kids from nicotine addiction. Urge lawmakers to Pass Senate Bill 702A. Take action at flavorshookoregonkids.org paid for by the Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids Action Fund.