Accept Your Parents’ Limits with Bruce Springsteen

Summary

IMO Podcast Episode Summary: "Accept Your Parents’ Limits with Bruce Springsteen"

Podcast Information:

• Title: IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson
• Episode: Accept Your Parents’ Limits with Bruce Springsteen
• Release Date: June 11, 2025
• Guests: Michelle Obama, Craig Robinson, and Bruce Springsteen

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1. Introduction

In this heartfelt episode of IMO, Michelle Obama and her brother Craig Robinson are joined by the legendary musician Bruce Springsteen to delve into the complexities of adult-child relationships with absentee or limited-engagement parents. The episode centers around a listener's poignant question about navigating a strained relationship with her father.

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2. Bruce Springsteen's Relationship with His Father (00:00 – 05:26)

Bruce opens the conversation by sharing a deeply personal story about his father:

Bruce Springsteen (00:00): "I loved my father deeply throughout my entire life...He looks at me and I said, well, you did the best you could."

He recounts a meaningful interaction during the last decade of his father's life, emphasizing the importance of understanding and accepting his father's limitations. This foundational story sets the tone for the episode, highlighting the emotional challenges that come with parental absenteeism.

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3. Listener's Question: Alex's Struggle with Her Father's Absence (06:50 – 32:34)

The episode introduces Alex, a 24-year-old from Oakland, California, who grapples with a distant relationship with her father post-divorce. Her father seldom visits, opting instead to maintain a separate family unit, leaving Alex yearning for more involvement in her life.

Michelle presents Alex's heartfelt plea:

Michelle Obama (06:50): "...my dad doesn't reciprocate. What makes this hardest is that I love spending time with my dad as much as he's hurt my feelings."

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4. Insights and Advice on Accepting Parental Limits (09:17 – 17:19)

Bruce Springsteen empathizes with Alex's situation, drawing from his own experiences with an absentee father afflicted by mental illness:

Bruce Springsteen (09:17): "This is a tough position to be in... How do you accept someone you care about giving you less than what you need from them?"

He emphasizes the necessity of honest communication while recognizing that some relationships may remain irreparable despite one's efforts.

Michelle adds:

Michelle Obama (12:33): "It’s a vulnerable position that Alex has to be mature enough to put herself in."

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5. The Importance of Being Present as a Parent (19:15 – 37:01)

The conversation shifts to the broader theme of parenting, with both Michelle and Bruce underscoring the significance of everyday moments over material provisions. Michelle introduces the concept of "parenting is pennies in the bank," stressing that small, consistent acts of presence can profoundly impact children's lives.

Michelle Obama (21:08): "You’re never too poor to be a father."

Bruce echoes this sentiment, sharing his journey to prioritize family over work:

Bruce Springsteen (33:35): "I had to put my work more in perspective...I'm going to make the kids breakfast and take them to school."

He credits his wife, Patty, for helping him balance his career with his responsibilities as a parent.

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6. Mental Health and Seeking Support (45:17 – 53:22)

Addressing the stigma surrounding mental health, Bruce discusses his own path to seeking therapy as a means to cope with personal and familial challenges:

Bruce Springsteen (46:14): "I was totally embarrassed... but it was simply working... I was getting better."

Michelle highlights the importance of mental health support for both parents and children, advocating for increased openness and assistance.

Michelle Obama (48:04): "We are impacted by the world around us... It affects us, our souls and our minds."

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7. Conclusion: Healing and Moving Forward (50:02 – 53:22)

As the episode winds down, Michelle and Bruce offer comprehensive advice to Alex and listeners alike:

• Acceptance: Recognize and accept the limitations of your parents without self-blame.
• Communication: Maintain honest and direct conversations to express your needs and feelings.
• Seek Support: Engage in therapy or find supportive communities to navigate emotional challenges.
• Be Present: Emulate the "pennies in the bank" philosophy by cherishing and investing in daily interactions with loved ones.

Bruce concludes with a touching reflection on reconciliation and the enduring impact of meaningful acknowledgments:

Bruce Springsteen (40:15): "And that was, in a funny way, that one small acknowledgment of the truth made an enormous, enormous difference to me in my life."

Michelle reinforces the message that it's never too late for parents to reconnect meaningfully with their children:

Michelle Obama (39:53): "Never too late. And the acknowledgement can be something as small as I see you."

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Key Takeaways

• Understanding Parental Limitations: Accepting that some parents may never fulfill all emotional needs is a crucial step towards personal healing.
• The Power of Presence: Small, consistent acts of presence can have a lasting impact on children's well-being.
• Mental Health Matters: Seeking therapy and addressing mental health openly can bridge gaps in familial relationships.
• Open Communication: Expressing feelings and needs transparently fosters better understanding and potential reconciliation.
• Self-Compassion: Acknowledge your own worth and emotional experiences without internalizing parental shortcomings.

This episode of IMO serves as a compassionate guide for individuals navigating complex parent-child relationships, offering both personal anecdotes and practical advice to foster healing and acceptance.

Transcript

[Bruce Springsteen]

I loved my father deeply throughout my entire life. The last 10 years of his life. He was able to see my children and we had one interaction that made the world of difference to me. Patty and I were going to have our first son. And daddy came down and visited me one day and we were living in Los Angeles and just knocks on my door. He says, my dad doesn't tell me he's coming. Comes down from San Francisco, he comes in, wants a beer, it's 11 in the morning. I give him a beer, I take one for myself and he looks at me and says, hey, you know, you've really been very good to us. I says, yeah Pa, it's my pleasure. You know, it was you guys, the house and I wasn't very good to you.

[Michelle Obama]

Uh huh.

[Bruce Springsteen]

He looks at me and I said, well, you did the best you could.

[Michelle Obama]

This episode of IMO is brought to you by Progressive Insurance and Pinesol. Well, I have the special honor of having one of my dear friends join me for this conversation. He needs no introduction. Cause everybody knows this dude. 20 time Grammy winner, hall of fame, all of that. Blah, da da da da. The one and only Bruce Springsteen. Thank you for being here and taking time off your tour. You're in the middle of touring.

[Bruce Springsteen]

It is my pleasure.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, yeah. Last time I saw you was on stage in Barcelona.

[Bruce Springsteen]

That's right. And you did an excellent job as a backup singer.

[Michelle Obama]

May I say, say that one more time just for the.

[Bruce Springsteen]

You did an excellent job as a backup singer. That was tambourinus.

[Michelle Obama]

I think I worked the tambourine pretty good.

[Bruce Springsteen]

You did.

[Michelle Obama]

That was a surreal experience. Being on stage with you, singing our hearts out. That was a real honor, a lot of fun. And I told you about this. You play for three hours.

[Bruce Springsteen]

What else can I do?

[Michelle Obama]

You could do two. You could do, but you play for three hours non stop, non stop. I mean, you don't talk much. No, you, you sing through and move through the whole thing. It's incredible to watch you perform.

[Bruce Springsteen]

You put the pedal to the metal from first note to last.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, yeah. And blow everybody out of the water. And the other thing I love is just the diversity of your crowds. I mean, you've got folks in their 80s and 10 year olds singing every note, every lyric.

[Bruce Springsteen]

That's pretty. It's amazing, you know, and what can I say? With my best friends every night and been doing it for 50 years with the same guys. That's a magic act right there.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, there's a little bit of magic, but there's a Little bit of truth. And look, everybody knows you as the great Bruce Springsteen, but you are truly one of my favorite people as a person.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Aw, kid, Kid.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, I mean, I say this behind your back, I say it to your wife, but, you know, you're just the real deal. You are. You are a solid man, a solid human being.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Thank you.

[Michelle Obama]

I've seen you as a. As a caring husband, as a loving father, and you just became a grandfather.

[Bruce Springsteen]

That's right.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, and you, you work at it. You know, I don't think it's magic. The loyalty that your fans and your band members show you. That's not magic. That's work. Because that's who you are.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Yeah. If you want the stability and if you want the depth of those lifelong friendships and partnerships, you know, you're not gonna get it without working at it. You know, when I was young, I said, oh, you know, I said, well, I got really good at playing the guitar. I should be great at being a partner for someone. And I realized, oh, wait a minute, I spent thousands of hours learning the guitar.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Bruce Springsteen]

And finally I realized, hey, I gotta put the time in. And, you know, we got three great kids, and Patty and I are both, you know, we came out of complicated families. And so you get the great reward of seeing your children unburdened by a lot of the toxicity that you had to work your way through. You know, what is your goal? Your goal is, let me work my way through this so you won't have to let your sins be your own for your children. Let them have their own mistakes. Just don't make my mistakes over again.

[Michelle Obama]

But it's a rare thing. I mean, it's rare that people don't pass their stuff on. And that's one of the things that, that's why I marvel at you and Patti and the work that you all have done because you, you learned those lessons. You and Patty have been couple mentors for me and Barack for quite some time.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Whoa. All right.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, yeah. You know, watching you guys do the work, getting advice on how to keep those lines of communication open, you got two powerful people in you and Patty, you know, your own powerhouses in your own right. And merging those lives together for all those reasons, you were the perfect person to be here to discuss this wonderful question from one of our listeners. Her name is Alex. She's 24 year old woman and she is struggling with the relationship with a father. But I think our listeners would love to hear some of your wisdom on the challenge that Alex is facing. So let's listen to the question.

[Alex]

Hi, Michelle. My name is Alex. I'm 24 years old, and I live in Oakland, California. My parents divorced when I was a young kid, and I've always had kind of a complicated relationship with my dad. In middle school and high school, I saw my dad every week as part of the divorce schedule. But as an adult, his life is almost completely separate from mine. We talk on the phone kind of every couple of months, but I see him only every year or two. He remarried my stepmother while my sister and I were still pretty young. And now my dad and stepmom and two step siblings are kind of their own family unit, while my sister and I really feel more like they're cousins who get invited in only occasionally. My main issue with my dad is that I just really want him to visit me in Oakland. I've lived here for three years, and he's not come to see me once. I'd love him to meet my boyfriend and my friends and my cat and show him the life I've built for myself. He says he will, but he just doesn't come. I've told him directly how I want us to be more involved in each other's lives, but he does not reciprocate. What makes this hardest is that I love spending time with my dad as much as he's hurt my feelings. When we're together, it's so easy. We love the same things, and he makes me feel like the smartest version of myself. When we argue, it's only over how I want him to give more of an effort. I'm worried that now that I'm an adult, we'll just grow further apart. And I kind of know he won't really be the parent I need him to be. So my question to you is, how do I move forward from this? How do you accept someone who you care so much about giving you less than what you need from them?

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. You know, I feel for Alex, but I think her question. Unfortunately, there are a lot of young people, a lot of people who are struggling with this father dynamic all over the. Not just all over the country, all over the world. You know, kids trying to figure out how to build those relationships with fathers who aren't there. Can't be there, choose not to be there. So I know that a lot of listeners can relate to where Alex is. But, Bruce, why don't we just jump in? What do you think?

[Bruce Springsteen]

This is a tough position to be in, and I kind of grew up with an absentee father in the house. You know, my entire life was sort of waiting for him to shine on me in one way or another.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bruce Springsteen]

I didn't. When you're young, you know, you don't realize that's. I don't think that's going to happen. He wasn't. He simply wasn't well enough. He was. My dad struggled with a lot of mental illness and. Which we didn't know until. Because it's the 50s, we didn't know until much later. But as a child, it was incredibly, incredibly painful. And she's only 24. And at 24, I was still struggling with all of this. But she's in an interesting position because she says that her father lights her up when they're together, but doesn't seem to want to take the full responsibility of a parent, you know, so you're sort of left between a rock and a hard place, you know, how do you accept someone you care about giving you less than what you need from them?

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Is that a thing that you do? You know, I mean, I would tell Alex that it's not just her burden that's right to bear. It's a tough thing trying to get a grownup to do what's right by a kid who's just developing.

[Bruce Springsteen]

No. I think one of the most difficult things to do is realizing that relationships have their limits. Sometimes there are simply no great choices. We all want to love our parents at the same time. There are irretrievable relationships. There are relationships that simply are not going to function. The thing that I found was helpful even with my father's illness, and it sounds like she's done this, but it's worth reiterating that, communicating honestly and directly as you can to with that person. When my father got very ill, he got lost. I had to go find him in Los Angeles, brought him back home, and the only thing I could tell him, I said, look, dad, you know, you have to understand that mom needs you. I need you in my life. And I tried to be as directly as I could with my father in letting him know how important he was. And just in my heart and in my soul, you know, and hope that he would be able to respond to that.

[Michelle Obama]

And that's a brave thing. It's a bold thing to ask a kid to do. And I still see Alex at 24 as a kid.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Yeah, right. 24. You're a kid.

[Michelle Obama]

You're still a kid. And to be able to look someone that you look up to in the eye and tell them and admit to them that they've hurt you, you know, and to even admit that need. Right.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

That's a vulnerable thing. That's a vulnerable position that Alex has to be mature enough to put herself in.

[Bruce Springsteen]

That's right.

[Michelle Obama]

But I think what you're saying is true that by doing that, even if it's tough, it's an unburdening for her so that at least she's on record. You know, as uncomfortable as it may make her feel, it's important for her well being to have it stated plain and to not assume that he understands, to say those words out loud, that.

[Bruce Springsteen]

That's right.

[Michelle Obama]

I need you and I'm hurt when you're not here.

[Bruce Springsteen]

That's right. I know that was. It was. It was valuable for me. And I think that helped my father understand his own value, which was a problem.

[Craig Robinson]

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[Bruce Springsteen]

Really, you have to lay it out there. And in doing so, she's showing more maturity than her dad and make an effort to understand. He remarried, he has another family. You can look at like your previous family is a failed family in some way. And that can bring a lot of guilt, a lot of your own sense of failure. And he needs the maturity to understand that she has this beautiful daughter. And.

[Michelle Obama]

You don't just get to walk away.

[Bruce Springsteen]

No. You got to be accountable, you know, you signed your name on the dotted line, you know.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. So you said. You used the term when you described your father as he was absentee in the home. They're the people who just disappear. They don't show up. But you make a point that there's also. There's also an absence that can be felt when people are there.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

And that can be just as painful.

[Bruce Springsteen]

People write you out of the picture using a variety of devices. One was, in my case, my dad was quite a drinker, you know, and. And that took up a lot of his time. He was busy doing that a lot.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bruce Springsteen]

And one of the things that Patty taught me was she says, listen, you can't just be here, you gotta be present.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Bruce Springsteen]

I used to think, well, wait a minute, I got a song to write. I'm thinking these great thoughts.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Bruce Springsteen]

You know, come on, you're gonna get in the way of my great thoughts, you know, And I learned that like, well, if you got a good song, it'll be there tomorrow, you know, but the kids, they're gonna be gone. They're not gonna be there tomorrow.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Bruce Springsteen]

You know that relatively quickly. They rush through your life and even if you remain close to them, they're out the door and they're leading their Own lives. Now, I always remember I had a discussion with my oldest son at one point where I felt that I had taught him, like, if I asked him to do something, I had signaled him that I wanted him to say no. If I asked you to do something, you know, it's always, maybe later, dad, or maybe this. I think I taught you to do that.

[Michelle Obama]

You mean just spending time together?

[Bruce Springsteen]

That's right. Because.

[Michelle Obama]

So he started playing back for you. The response.

[Bruce Springsteen]

That's right.

[Michelle Obama]

Be unavailable.

[Bruce Springsteen]

That's right.

[Michelle Obama]

Right. This is what we do. Dad wants to play ball. Well, you know, this is what my dad says.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Maybe later, you know, So I realized that parenting is pennies in the bank. It's that time when you were working and you didn't want to stop, but you did. That made a huge difference to me because if I'd have failed, I always felt if I'd have failed with my kids, I would have failed tremendously in life.

[Michelle Obama]

I like what you said, that parenting is pennies in the bank. And that just resonates because I think of, you know, I think of my upbringing and I talked about it a lot. You know, we were working class, poor working class family. Father was a city worker. He did not make a lot of money. He did not have a title. He was not famous. He wouldn't be on a regular schedule. We could go for a week and not see him because he was working a shift. But when he was present, he was present in very small but meaningful ways.

[Bruce Springsteen]

That's wonderful.

[Michelle Obama]

Something as simple. You know, I recall like the special treat before dinner, if he was there or after dinner, was that we get him to play a game.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Any kind of game. You know, a tickle game, a card game. And it just felt like such a treat that this big important man who had all this responsibility.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Got on the floor and played with us.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

He delighted in our presence.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Yeah. That's wonderful.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, and what I tell a lot of parents is that a lot of times we work for money and things, because especially if you're poor, you think, well, if I could give my kids more, we could live in a bigger house. If I could put them in the best schools, if I could give them the nicest sneakers. Right, right. That that is going to replace it. But it's the pennies in the bank that matters. And everybody's got some pennies. You know, kids don't need the stuff. They just want the pennies, you know, Very important. And I think a lot of men lose sight of the fact that a Lot of what they're working towards is just their goals and ambition, you know, And I think men should have that. I think everyone, men, women, people, have to have their own lives and their own ambitions, but have it and say, that's for you. But your kids, they just want pennies.

[Bruce Springsteen]

They want the pennies.

[Michelle Obama]

They really do.

[Bruce Springsteen]

They do. Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. You're never too poor to be a father.

[Bruce Springsteen]

No. To give, you know, time and attention, you know, artists, the worst. The worst. So self involved, you know. Oh, my God. You know, you get so caught up in your own. Your own inner world, you know, because that's where you sought refuge, you know, when things weren't working out when you were younger, you sought refuge in this inner world.

[Michelle Obama]

I think the point you're making is that, you know, it's easy to get lost in the grandeur of your life.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Exactly. Of yourself.

[Michelle Obama]

Of yourself.

[Bruce Springsteen]

I had to deal with a lot of the grandeur of myself.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. You know, because that's the thing everybody's taught to pursue, you know, it's like that's the brass ring. And that's why parenting is a. Is a. It's a group sport, big time. And I think Barack is just like you, is a tremendous father, doing it in a lot of grandeur. Right. Yeah. You're the commander in chief of the United States of America. And so finding that. That balance of, you know, when you've got the nuclear code in your grasp and world leaders calling you and big, important, heavy decisions coming at you every day and valets and AIDS and on and on and security and, oh, it's just all grandeur. Trying to wipe all that stuff away and leave it at the door before you enter. Before he would enter the residence of the White House to sit at a dinner table with his two daughters and only talk about them.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Right.

[Michelle Obama]

It was important for both of us, for me and Barack to carve out that time in those eight years when our girls were in their formative years, you know.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

They lived longer, Malia and Sasha, in the White House than they've lived in any house.

[Bruce Springsteen]

That's amazing.

[Michelle Obama]

They were formed in that house and around that table, in that residence. And it took a mighty effort to leave the grandeur at the door and to just be there and talk about fifth grade and, you know, even in.

[Bruce Springsteen]

My job, you know, it's like, hey, you're on the road. You're king. You go home. Hey, you're the chauffeur, you know, and making that transition can be funny, you know, and everybody has Some version of that, you know, that you need to transition into your domestic life and to be able to transition into your domestic life and to understand who you are there and to identify it, you know, I think. I know in my case, I had a hard time dealing with domesticity, period.

[Michelle Obama]

What do you mean by that?

[Bruce Springsteen]

I was such a spoiled child. Even though we grew up lower middle class, working class.

[Michelle Obama]

You were adored.

[Bruce Springsteen]

I was, yeah. Period. Somebody, you know, I was. I was. The artists are all the same. One person tells them they're the second coming of the baby Jesus. The other person tells them they're not worth a dime. And they believe both of them. And it sets up a dynamic that puts the fire in the furnace, you know, for the rest of your life. But in Alex's case, it's very difficult. I think she has to find out if her relationship where their father is truly retrieval, if he can respond to her needs. And he's got to step up and be accountable.

[Craig Robinson]

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[Michelle Obama]

Alex, you know, at 24, it's not too soon to do some analysis.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Not at all.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, because she definitely is in a situation that could mess her up. It could impact her emotional mental health, her feelings of self worth if she doesn't get some help working through these feelings, even if it's not with him. Because like you said, her father may not be capable of giving her what she needs. And she's got to figure enough of that out. But then if the answer is no, she still is gonna need some help to deal with that hurt and that rejection. And what I would say to Alex is that that's real, you know, you are not crazy.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Yeah. That's important.

[Michelle Obama]

For feeling pained. Your father's actions have done some damage on you. And if he can't admit it, then I want to hand her that because she's not only dealing with his rejection, which is one thing, but the fact that he started a whole nother family.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

That he. That he is fathering.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Right.

[Michelle Obama]

That's an incredibly hurtful thing to watch and experience for her and her sister, for the kids that were left behind.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

And I think it's a disservice to not let young people know when they're in a crazy circumstance.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Absolutely.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, it's like, I want to be like, alex, it's messed up.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Your father is wrong. You know, he is the adult. He has failed you, and it's not you.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Well, that's very important. I think when you're young, you know, and I did this myself, is like, if I'm being rejected, well, I must have done something wrong.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, that's right.

[Bruce Springsteen]

I'm insufficient in some way. I'm not enough. I don't deserve to be loved. I don't deserve to be parented. You know, I just assumed that that was true.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Bruce Springsteen]

And carried that with me for a long, long, long time. You know, a long time.

[Michelle Obama]

What do you think were some of the biggest changes that you made once you said to yourself, I gotta be more present?

[Bruce Springsteen]

Well, a lot of it was I had to put my work more in perspective.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, say that one more time.

[Bruce Springsteen]

I had to put my work more in perspective because I realized that I was so fundamentally uncomfortable in so many real life situations that I was taking my job, expanding its hours so that it took up most of my day. I was used to this putting an enormous amount of time into someplace where I was comfortable emotionally and mentally, which was basically in the worlds that I was creating. I had to step out of that and put that in perspective. In other words, okay, guess what? I'm only going to work from 12 to 6. I'm not going to work after 6:00.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Bruce Springsteen]

And I'm going to get up at 6:30am I'm going to make the kids breakfast and take them to school and do that every day.

[Michelle Obama]

Pennies in the bank, you know, so.

[Bruce Springsteen]

And these are things which I would not have done without Patty being there to support me and explain to me, hey, man, you're screwing it up. And not only are you screwing it up, but you yourself are gonna miss it.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Bruce Springsteen]

If you don't get up in the morning when the kids are at their best, you are gonna miss it.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. And you lose those years. They go by so fast. Barack didn't struggle in the way that you did. But, you know, with a busy schedule, I used to, whenever I thought he wasn't doing enough, I'd start singing Cats in the Cradle in the silver Spoon. Cause that song is so profound, you know. When you coming home, son? Don't know when I was like, you're gonna look up and the girls will be gone, you know, because there is a little window that parents don't understand of time when your children even want to be bothered with you.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Well, listen, they're going to be gone and they are not going to be taking you with them.

[Michelle Obama]

That's right. You know, that's right.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Your time and your ability to influence their inner life and their spiritual life and their emotional life will have come to a close. And if they walk out that door without taking you with them, it's going to be a tremendous loss in your life.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, and that kind of foresight, I don't think a lot of people think about, like the pennies in the bank investment when they're young. And you do still have some influence over their emotional and spiritual and intellectual being. And to know that they come out on the other end as adults whole, able to raise whole grandkids and how that frees you up later in life so that you can really enjoy your life and not worry about your adult kids screwing up because you weren't there when they needed you. You know, I mean, isn't it really a wonderful thing to be at this stage to have three beautiful adults who are out in the world contributing and you can now have a full relationship with them and watch them parent their own kids?

[Bruce Springsteen]

I watched my youngest son and his. His daughter, he's a better dad than I was already, you know, and that gives me great pride.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Bruce Springsteen]

You know, Great pride. I go, well, he's really doing it right, you know, and for Alex, taking the long view of things, realizing that these things don't necessarily work themselves out in your desired time or. Or certainly quickly, you know, that sometimes you process and work these things out throughout your entire life, and that's how you find peace with them and some compassion for your errant parent or. You know, I loved my father deeply throughout my entire life. But toward the last 10 years of his life, he was able to see my children. And we had one interaction that made the world of difference to me. I was. Patty and I were gonna have our first son. And Daddy came down and visited me one day, and we were living in Los Angeles, and he just knocks on my door. He says, my dad, he doesn't tell me he's coming. Comes down from San Francisco. He comes in, wants a beer. It's eleven in the morning. I give him a beer. I take one for myself, and he looks at me and says, hey, you know, you've really been very good to us. I says, yeah, Paul, it's my pleasure. You know, it was. Well, you got to the house and I wasn't very good to you. He looks at me and I said, well, you did the best you could. Which he did under the circumstances of his illness. And that was, in a funny way, that one small acknowledgment of the truth made an enormous, enormous difference to me in my life. I still remain filled with the grace of that moment. And I feel blessed by the ability to have that moment. And sometimes that's the best that you can. That's the best that you can hope for, Bruce.

[Michelle Obama]

That's such. That's just such an important thing for people to remember, because I know there are probably a lot of absentee parents out there listening. And I'm sure some of what happens is that it just gets harder to acknowledge. Right. You know, the longer it goes, the more the words get lost and stuck in the throat. And so I'm sure there are people out there who aren't reaching out because they don't even know how to. They think it's too late. And I think this story reminds us all that for kids, it's never too late. Never too late. And the acknowledgement can be something as small as I see you.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

I know that I didn't do my best.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

And it's just important for the adults out there to understand that even that little bit of acknowledgment, like the grace of that, as you said, what that did for you, even as you were becoming a father, it wasn't too late.

[Bruce Springsteen]

No.

[Michelle Obama]

And it meant something.

[Bruce Springsteen]

And like I said, it ended up being enough for me at the end of the day. But I think it ended up being enough for me because I put all the time in to process through the pain and heartbreak that relationship had cost the two of us, you know, so then. And you have to understand sometimes there's things you're, you know, there are things that my father was totally incapable of. I love you. Please.

[Michelle Obama]

That wasn't going to happen.

[Bruce Springsteen]

You know. You know, it's like. And I had to come to the. I had to come to peace with the fact that, well, that's my old man, you know, that that's. And my father was a very funny man. My first divorce, he's taking me to the airport and he says, bruce, you know, maybe it's time for you to move back home.

[Craig Robinson]

Okay?

[Bruce Springsteen]

And they go, dad, I'm like, I'm 36. I'm a self made, I'm a millionaire.

[Michelle Obama]

I'm the boss. Yeah, I can't move back home, move in the basement.

[Bruce Springsteen]

But, you know, I was really glad to be asked. It really touched me that he asked.

[Michelle Obama]

It's like, maybe you need to be with your daddy, right?

[Craig Robinson]

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[Bruce Springsteen]

You know. But I found recognition of my needs in funny places at funny times. They weren't convenient and they were never going to be, quote, normal. Alex says that when she's with her father makes her feel like the smartest person in the room. That's a good place to start.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. And one thing I do want to go back to the work that you've done, the therapy that you've done. And I talk to you about this a lot. You know that it is rare for men to get help to seek counseling. And not only have you done it but you're very vocal about it and you're very clear headed about it. You give permission to a lot of men out there who need to do work, they need to do some self reflection and to figure out.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Let me say when I started, I was embarrassed. I mean, I was a child of the 50s, my dad was a man of the 50s, and we had a lot of mental illness in my family, my aunts, my cousins. It really ran through, particularly the Irish side, but the Italian side in some ways also. And no one got any help. So when I started, and I only started because I hit a wall and really had. Looking back on, it was somewhat of a breakdown, you know, and that was. I almost felt like, well, I gotta get help somehow.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Bruce Springsteen]

But I was totally embarrassed. I would hide. I had the baseball cap and the sunglasses and I'm looking all around to see if anybody's looking at me.

[Michelle Obama]

What office building is he going block.

[Bruce Springsteen]

And I'm sneaking in the, in the, into the doctor's office and I'm sneaking out and I'm. I'd say it, but that might have went on for years, right? Yeah. You know, that's how I did feel embarrassed about it, you know, but there was one thing I couldn't argue with. It was working. It was simply working, you know, in bits and pieces. I was getting better at this and more comfortable with that. So it was really. I just came from a world where that didn't exist, you know, and it took a lot to go initially and to finally to just feel completely relaxed about going. And that's very.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, it's still stigmatized. We still don't. We're doing a better job of it than our parents and our grandparents did for sure. But it's still. We don't talk about mental health.

[Bruce Springsteen]

It's like if you were looking for the job of presidency and someone finds out that you've been in therapy. I don't know if anyone who's done that hasn't been done. You know, it should be.

[Michelle Obama]

Even though some people should be in therapy who want to be president.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Yeah, you think so, right? You know, it's like, you know, you look and say, hey, that should be a plus in your corner. It's not a minus, you know, but it's still, it's still an issue, you know, it's still a cultural issue. So.

[Michelle Obama]

And I think about how many men would be helped, how many families would be stronger, you know, how many Alexes would, you know, have some level of support and understanding if we were to Understand and embrace the importance of mental health in our lives. Because it's not unique. I mean, we all have people in our lives who have real clear mental health issues, like your father. But it doesn't have to be that extreme. Just getting through depression, dealing with the day to day questions in. Even if you had a parent that was there for you, you know, maybe they weren't good at communicating. You know, maybe they didn't teach you how to explore your emotions. Maybe your mother, you know, didn't hug you enough. Who knows? Whatever it is. But we are impacted by the world around us. And it doesn't just affect our physical health. It affects us, our souls and our minds. And I just think it's important for people who, you know, have those looking up to them.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Oh, yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

To know, you know, even the coolest dude on the planet.

[Bruce Springsteen]

That's right.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, gets some help every now and then.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Sure does.

[Michelle Obama]

But I think that, you know, if we were to sum up some advice for Alex as we close out this conversation. You know, I think, Bruce, one of the things that you said was that, you know, sometimes there isn't a nice, neat answer.

[Bruce Springsteen]

No.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, and in Alex's case, she may never find what she needs in her father because he may never be capable of giving that to her. And some of this is for the people. If there are parents out there who find themselves in this kind of relationship with their children, you know, I think the advice for me wouldn't be for Alex. It's for the parents who are listening. Don't put your child in this kind of situation. You know, if you bring a child onto this earth, be present.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Put in the pennies. You know, you don't have to be perfect. You don't have to be trouble free. You know, kids love parents. Even if they've gone to jail, done some bad things, made some huge mistakes, you still can't replace that love. And it is never too late. If you weren't there for the first 10 years, be there for the next and the next and the next.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Well, that was it. With my own pal. I said, hey, you know, guess what? You know, the things you didn't do so well with me and you got another chance. Here's my son.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bruce Springsteen]

And to see my father interact with my. With my son was very, very valuable.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. It was healing.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Yeah. And so it's a constant discussion for Alex, it's not something that's necessarily gonna be resolved this month or this year. I think if she's not getting the kind of love that she needs. There's. What does she do with her love? You know, where does. Where do. Where does that go? Where does she place that? And also in her. Her own choosing of a partner.

[Michelle Obama]

Yes.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Because we're attracted to a lot of the characteristics of our parents. And your piece is something that you. That you have to drive internally yourself and you have to seek out.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, I think Alex has some good. You know, she. She heard it from the boss. You know, your piece, your inner peace is yours to work on, and it's. It's a gift I hope she cherishes and she gets some help to process it. But thank you for, you know.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

So coming in.

[Bruce Springsteen]

That's the advice of a guitar player, anyway.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Yeah, that is a guitar player who.

[Michelle Obama]

Happens to be an amazing father and. And is. Is. Is. Is a proud grandpapa, too.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Oh, yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Thanks, Michelle.

[Michelle Obama]

Thank you. Thank you, Bruce. Thanks for your time and your friendship and your love.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Thanks for being here with you and. Yeah, we love you.

[Michelle Obama]

We'll see out there.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Sam.