Don’t Grieve a Parent Alone with Michelle and Craig

Summary

Don’t Grieve a Parent Alone with Michelle and Craig

In the heartfelt episode titled "Don’t Grieve a Parent Alone," hosts Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson open up about their personal experiences with loss, offering guidance and empathy to listeners navigating the complex emotions of grieving a parent. Through candid conversations, they address the challenges of managing grief within a family dynamic and provide practical advice for those feeling isolated in their sorrow.

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Personal Journeys Through Grief

Michelle and Craig begin by sharing their own stories of losing a beloved mother. Michelle reflects on the overwhelming task of handling not only their personal grief but also the collective mourning from a broader community:

“We spent a lot of time managing everybody else's grief, and we really haven't talked much about our own grief. So I'm happy we're able to do this now.” (01:24)

Craig adds depth to the conversation by discussing their mother's strong-willed nature and the difficulties in honoring her wishes during the grieving process:

“She was very clear on what she did and didn't want...how do you create a memorial service that honors her?” (02:33)

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Balancing Independence with Family Responsibilities

The hosts delve into their mother's independent spirit, especially during their time in the White House. Michelle shares memories of their mother's reluctance to embrace the grandeur of their new residence:

“She didn't want Secret Service. She didn't want this. She was content with who she was and where she was.” (05:43)

Craig recounts amusing and touching anecdotes about their travels, highlighting their mother's spirited character and resilience:

“We went to visit the queen, spent time at Buckingham. We were on the Great Wall of China...she embraced it once she got there.” (06:00)

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Cherished Mother's Day Traditions

Michelle and Craig reminisce about cherished Mother's Day traditions, sharing stories that underscore the love and appreciation their fathers showed towards their mothers:

“Dad used to go shopping for mom on Mother's Day at Carson Perry Scott and pick out an outfit...He was so nice.” (19:28)

They also discuss hosting special events for military mothers, reflecting their mother's dedication to honoring and supporting others:

“Every Mother's Day, we hosted military moms and the wives of our military...mom always made it a point to attend that.” (21:16)

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Listener Madeline’s Struggle with Grief

A significant portion of the episode focuses on a heartfelt letter from Madeline, a 28-year-old listener who recently lost her father after a two-year battle with cancer. Madeline describes the sudden upheaval in her once-tight-knit family, feeling increasingly isolated as her brothers have distanced themselves:

“How could losing the same person we all loved have created such a powerful wedge among us? How can I begin to feel less alone among them in my grief?” (26:37)

Madeline's distress is compounded by her mother's swift return to dating, leaving Madeline feeling abandoned and alone in her sorrow.

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Michelle and Craig’s Compassionate Guidance

Michelle and Craig respond with empathy and practical advice, acknowledging that grief is experienced uniquely by each individual. Michelle encourages Madeline to respect her brothers' ways of grieving:

“Help your brothers grieve the way they need to grieve.” (27:20)

Craig suggests that Madeline may need to take the initiative to reconnect with her siblings, potentially becoming the family's stabilizing force:

“You have to be the convener now...maybe you're next up...grow up and become the glue.” (30:33)

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The Importance of Communication and Time

Both hosts emphasize the necessity of open communication and allowing time for healing. Michelle reassures Madeline that grief doesn't follow a set timeline:

“This does get better. It takes time, but it gets better.” (46:29)

Craig reinforces the importance of building and maintaining strong relationships both within and outside the family unit:

“You have to spend a lifetime cultivating relationships within your family and outside of your families.” (47:20)

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Closing Thoughts: Embracing Healing and Support

In their concluding remarks, Michelle and Craig encourage Madeline and all listeners to embrace their grief, trust in their resilience, and seek support from their communities:

“Be the glue. Pick up the phone and good luck, Madeline. You're gonna be okay.” (50:27)

“It's been soon. That's the other thing. It ebbs and flows.” (50:40)

Through their compassionate dialogue, Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson offer a comforting and relatable exploration of grief, underscoring the importance of mutual support, understanding, and patience in the healing process.

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Note: Timestamps correspond to the transcript of the podcast episode.

Transcript

[Michelle Obama]

She qualifies for state and had to go down to Champaign, Illinois, and that's when she left us a note.

[Craig Robinson]

She didn't tell us. She left a note saying, by the way, if you're wondering where I am, I'm in Champaign, Illinois, running in a track meet.

[Michelle Obama]

And I thought I ought to tell.

[Craig Robinson]

You in case you just dropped dead.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, man, she is.

[Craig Robinson]

But she went on to qualify for Nationals.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

This episode is brought to you by DoorDash. Your door to making Mom's day, even from far away.

[Michelle Obama]

All righty. Look at us.

[Craig Robinson]

I know.

[Michelle Obama]

One on one today.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. It's just you and me. We figured, let's ditch the guests. Let's just talk mano a mano. Or is it mano a womano?

[Michelle Obama]

So how you feeling?

[Craig Robinson]

You know, I'm feeling pretty good. I mean, we've. You know, we've had a. A year.

[Michelle Obama]

Yes.

[Craig Robinson]

So it's. You know, as many people know, we lost our mom and, you know, just kind of sorting through how you feel, you know?

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

Cause the first instinct is to say, I feel good. I'm great. I'm good.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. I think you're absolutely right. And I'm glad we're doing a show on grief, because, as you remember, I mean, mom was so beloved by so many people from your orbit, which is gigantic, and my orbit, and her own orbit. You know, we spent a lot of time managing everybody else's grief, and we really haven't talked much about our own grief. So I'm happy we're able to do this now.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You put it well that we. You find yourself managing other people's grief because. Particularly with somebody like mom that was in her own right, amazingly, after all these years, she was a famous person. She meant a lot to so many people. People who knew her well, you know, friends who grew up with us from the time we lived on Euclid Avenue when we were little kids to, you know, I got letters from heads of state and ambassadors, and, you know, she was a. She became a world figure.

[Michelle Obama]

Amazing.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Just amazing.

[Craig Robinson]

That's a pretty amazing thing. And so when you've got somebody of note who means so much. Right. And you lose them as a family, you are managing a process now. Right. It becomes. Okay, how do you create a memorial service that honors her? And she was very clear on what she did and didn't want.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. The listeners should know that Mom's been threatening to drop dead for 20 years.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

She has been preparing us for this. So she left very Direct instructions on what she wanted and how she wanted things to be. And we had to take that into account when.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. Take it into account. But I don't think, mom, that she would ever own who she really was. Right.

[Michelle Obama]

No, she would not.

[Craig Robinson]

So her original requests were just, you know, don't make it anything fancy. Just have a few people, you know. And, you know, unfortunately, her only surviving sister died only a few months before she did.

[Michelle Obama]

That's right.

[Craig Robinson]

And so mom's view was. And that was our Aunt Gracie. She said, well, what, you know, what Gracie had was lovely. You know, you just had family and a few people speak and, you know, and I'm just sitting there listening, going, ma, there's no way. There's no way we can, you know, we can get away with that. So there was also, I won't call it the stress, but I was concerned about making sure that you, my brother, felt seen in our decisions to memorialize her. Because it becomes a production.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Yeah. And while that was very nice of you, I felt very much a part of it. You know, I thought, as we both know, mom wanted it. Like, I don't want an hour and a half memorial. I think she was worried about the time, she was worried about the amount of money we spent on it. And she wanted to make sure that family was gonna be involved. And you made sure all of that took place. And it was a wonderful memorial service. It was a little longer than she would have liked.

[Craig Robinson]

Oh, for sure.

[Michelle Obama]

But she would have enjoyed it if she were there. So that's what we talked about. That.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, that was always how mom was. Mom was like, I don't wanna fuss, I don't wanna go, I don't wanna travel. She was, you know, that was her beauty. Our mom was content with who she was and where she was, and she found her happiness and joy where she was. So that also was like a double edged sword for her because in her process of being so content and so don't worry about me, she would just sort of reflexively say no to everything, you know, throughout the whole eight years in the White House. First of all, she didn't want to come.

[Michelle Obama]

She didn't want to come in the first place.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. She didn't want to move to the White House. Why would I want to live in the White House? I have a perfectly lovely house here on Euclid Avenue, you know. So you fortunately were able to convince her that she wouldn't be moving for her, but she would be moving for her beloved granddaughters.

[Michelle Obama]

Yes.

[Craig Robinson]

And that finally sealed the deal. But then once she got there, she was like, I don't need. I don't want Secret Service. I don't need this. I don't need that. I'm just gonna be up in my suite of rooms. And we took a lot of trips over the years. We did some amazing traveling. You know, we went to visit the queen, spent time at Buckingham. We were on the Great Wall of China, just us, because the wall was closed off to everybody else. We had visits with two popes, one at the Vatican. I mean, you know, we had a personal greet at the home of Nelson Mandela.

[Michelle Obama]

That's when my kids came.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah, Avery and Leslie came on that because we tried to include them, but we generally did our travel, or my solo travel without Barack, with the girls. We tried to do it in the summer on break, so that we weren't ever pulling the girls out of school for travel. So we always had some major trips planned, and we, of course, need mom to go, but it was always presented as a mom, do you want to go? Right? And if you asked her, do you want to go to China? Her response would be, why would I want to go to China? You know, you already got me here at the White House. I don't need to go to China. So asking her what she wanted was never the approach. You had to tell her, michelle needs you to go on this trip. The girls need you. Because while I was doing all my official stuff, you know, the girls needed a chaperone to do their stuff. And then once she realized that she wasn't gonna take this trip for her, that she was doing it for us, then she could accept it. But then once she got there, you know, wherever she was, she had a ball. She was like, oh, my God, I'm going to the top of everything. I'm gonna see every dome. I'm gonna. You know, she embraced it once she got there, but every trip, the answer was no. But we went to Rome, and then later on, we went to Venice, you know, another year. And when we asked her about the Venice trip, she said, well, I've been to Italy.

[Michelle Obama]

I've been to Italy already.

[Craig Robinson]

And I was like, well, you know, Venice is very different from Rome. And she was like, well, I don't. You know, I don't need to go back to Italy. And it's like, why don't you just. Why don't you just do this one for us?

[Michelle Obama]

You know, I maintain all of that, her time at the White House, all the travel, having to care for the girls, added Years to her life, because she was just sitting over on Euclid, you know, on the porch, smoking cigarettes.

[Craig Robinson]

Cause she had retired, and she said she would probably retire sooner than she was ready. That'd be one of her admonitions to people out there. It's like, well, if you don't just retire because you reach a certain age, because she still had a lot of life, she still wanted to do work. But it was the dream of people of that generation, is that you hit a certain age, and if you can afford to retire, well, that's the thing you do.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

But fortunately for me, she did retire for both of us. Because she was retired. She really was like our rock when it came to the kids.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. And because you got her to do more, she would come out to visit us more because she felt like she had to even up the scorecard. Right. Because she was spending with your girls and not our kids. And I was like, mom, we're not counting. We love to have you out anytime you want, but we got to see her enough. Which brings me to, you know, dad dying. So people should know. Our dad died 33 years ago, so my oldest, Avery, wasn't born. And none of your kids were born yet. We all knew he loved us. Him dying so early, that was devastating. It was devastating for both of us. It was really devastating for me. When mom died, mom did the same thing. She made sure all of her kids, all of her grandkids, all of her in law, daughter in law, son in laws, all knew how much she felt about them. And so when mom died, while it was extraordinarily sad, it wasn't as devastating.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

And I think managing the grief hasn't been as hard as it was when dad died. I mean, when dad died, you know, everybody looked at me like, dad died.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Right. And it was so hard to manage that now while we had to sort of manage more people, when mom died, this was. I really felt mom's whole life and situation in death was the way she would have wanted it to be.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

And that gives you some comfort.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah, yeah. Mom never wanted to. She didn't want to be a burden to us.

[Michelle Obama]

Right.

[Craig Robinson]

She wanted her independence, you know, so after we got out of the White House, the first thing she wanted to do was go back to Chicago, and we got her a condo, so she'd be in a doorman building. Because she didn't sort of appreciate the fact that she was a famous person. She was well known. You know, she's walking around with our Faces. We have her face.

[Michelle Obama]

Yes.

[Craig Robinson]

So she is known. She can't, you know, even though she.

[Michelle Obama]

Would try to, she said, wear a baseball cap.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, what she said she would do in the airport, if she would travel, and somebody would come up and say, you look just like Mrs. Robinson. And she'd say, I get that a lot.

[Michelle Obama]

Straight up. She would think that was lying, because she didn't say, I get that a lot.

[Craig Robinson]

But all she wanted to do was have her own space. And so as she aged and, you know, became increasingly sicker, she really resisted, you know, wanting, because we were both ready and in a position to scoop her up and have her live with us.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

And provide her with care. And fortunately, I got a lot of months with her because she was with me in Hawaii for this last winter, and I got to take care of her and pamper her and have all the support she needed. And she resisted at every turn. You know, she didn't want, you know, the physical therapist. She didn't want the nurse's aid, so I had to tell her, I need them, you know, but she. All of that was because she didn't wanna feel like a burden, and she didn't wanna just wither away. She wanted to die at her prime. And that's just to make clear. That's the kind of stuff that mom prepared us for at a very early age. She was like, I do not want to be here forever. To the point where I don't have my memory. I can't move around. I can't do for myself. She's like, that's not my idea of living. And she didn't have that.

[Michelle Obama]

No, no. But she wasn't gonna let her. She was gonna smoke cigarettes and drink wine and eat bad food until she.

[Craig Robinson]

Until she.

[Michelle Obama]

Until she dropped dead.

[Craig Robinson]

Until she couldn't.

[Michelle Obama]

Yes. Yes. To use her term. And folks should know, when we say drop dead, that is a.

[Craig Robinson]

That's her term.

[Michelle Obama]

That is a comfort term for the Robinsons and the Obamas, because that's what my mom always called dying. Dropping dead.

[Craig Robinson]

It's just dropping dead. It's like a.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, he just dropped dead.

[Craig Robinson]

Just like. Okay, can we find another way to phrase it? But I think, you know, what mom did for us when it came to managing grief from as long as I could remember, is that she and dad were never afraid to talk about death. Right. Just like every other topic in our household, you know, they parented with an openness, with a philosophy that your kids were smart and capable and that if you phrase things the right way and did it at the level that they could understand. There really wasn't anything that you couldn't talk to your kids about in terms of just broad topics. I mean, they weren't the kind of we're best friends kind of parents.

[Michelle Obama]

No.

[Craig Robinson]

It was like, no, you're a child. But we can have conversations and we will encourage questions about everything that included death and aging. Because we did grow up with a big extended family. We grew up with all four of our grandparents. Our parents each had big families. Lots of brothers and sisters on both sides. We had lots of cousins. And within any extended family, over the course of your life, people die, people get sick, people age. But we say all that to say that we were introduced to aging and grief and talking about it and talking about it through our whole lives, which is the beauty of growing up in an extended family. Right. Because maybe things don't happen in your nuclear unit, but you'll see it. If you have a big enough family and folks are around long enough, you're gonna be confronted with it. And I think that our family or our parents at least, they just had a clear eyed view towards life and death. So while dad's death was harder because it was unexpected, and I think for Dad, I mourned less for me than for what he'd missed. Because I thought the thing I felt was like, here is this man who sacrificed everything for us, who worked every day of his life, who, like, was a role model to so many people, who gave us this amazing foundation, but he didn't get to see it, like, the fruits of it. I don't think he would have been surprised how our lives turned out. Oh, I think he could have. But I always think, what would dad have said?

[Michelle Obama]

He would have been enjoying that ride.

[Craig Robinson]

At the White House, you know, and.

[Michelle Obama]

He would have been the one. I'm going to Italy. I'm going to the Great Wall of China. I'm going to all these different places.

[Craig Robinson]

And I think about the fact that he didn't see you go to, you know, fulfill your basketball dreams. He didn't get to meet his grandchildren, who he would have adored and who would have adored him. That's. I'm like, he shouldn't have missed that. Right, right, right. So I grieve for him, but I was good, right? Because mom and dad set us up to be able to exist with and without them. And I think that that's one of the bravest things you can do as a parent, is prepare your kids for your absence. Not to prepare Them for you being there every single second of their lives, because you don't have control over that. And so, you know, I think about that with the girls and I with Malia and Sasha. I have those conversations with them all the time. It's like, you know what I think, you know, I have said it enough times. You. We have gone through the scenarios. We talk all the time. So if something happened to me, you're gonna be okay. You know, you already have those messages, so I don't want them to be afraid of me dying. I want them, you know, be sad.

[Michelle Obama]

But a little bit sad, you know?

[Craig Robinson]

But know that you got this right, and that's a peace of mind. And you don't get that if you don't talk about grief, if you don't talk about death, you know, And I just think a lot of us don't, you know, at least in America, we struggle with looking at grief head on as the real thing, that it is the inevitable thing, the rewards of a fruitful life if you're lucky.

[Michelle Obama]

Right?

[Craig Robinson]

Right. And then sometimes you gotta just. You just gotta be okay with the hurt, you know?

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. I remember mom saying when dad died that you guys are gonna be really upset for a while, but you gotta go to work. Yeah, but you gotta go to work. Cause I. And I remember going to work and my co workers are like, what are you doing here?

[Craig Robinson]

It's like I was told.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, my mom told me I had to come to work.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hi. This Mother's Day episode is a special one for both of us. And I know for all of you. And it's brought to you by doordash.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Mish, you remember what dad used to do for mom on Mother's Day? And you reminded me of this. It was. I had almost forgotten about it, but dad used to go shopping for mom on Mother's Day at Carson Perry Scott and pick out an outfit for an.

[Craig Robinson]

Entire or a couple of outfits. A full, you know, top, blazer, you know, skirt. All of it. Yeah. And he took such great pride and in being able to do that for mom because our mom was pretty, very frugal. She never shopped. She was a beautiful woman, and dad loved to see her in nice things. And really, the only time she got something new was when he went shopping for her.

[Michelle Obama]

That's right. And I didn't get to really understand how meticulous he was in his decision making until he got to a point where he couldn't go by himself. Folks know our dad had Ms. Everybody knows that story. And so I would drive him and. And we get to the women's department and be met by this wonderful woman. I wish I could remember her name, who worked at Carson's. Then she'd take him and wheel him back into the section, and she had things set up for him, and he would pick something right off the mannequin sometimes, and then he would go over and he'd feel the material, and it was just. It just brings back such a wonder.

[Craig Robinson]

And get it gift wrapped?

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[Craig Robinson]

At the gift wrap section at the time that they did gift wrapping.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Because we didn't gift wrapped. We always got it done at the store. Yeah. But I know you guys did some. Some really cool stuff at the White House, too.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. Yeah. When we were in the White House for those eight years, one of the things we did every Mother's Day is that we hosted military moms and the wives of our military for Mother's Day. We would usually host a lovely tea, either set in the Blue Oval Room or in the East Room. And we made it pretty with, you know, all the china and beautiful flowers on the tables, trying to make it really special to honor those moms, the Blue Star and gold star moms that serve our country and sacrifice. And we would allow them to bring their kids because we also knew that Mother's Day people, a lot of mothers were, especially if their spouses were deployed, they have their kids. So we would set aside a different set of activities in the stateroom for the kids, where they could go and make what would be surprise treats for their mothers. So they would do some crafting with the staff or bake with our executive baking chef, Susie. And they would, you know, have something special so that after the luncheon, they'd come in, you know, run in and give their moms this gift that they made at the White House. And mom always made it a point to attend that, even though she didn't.

[Michelle Obama]

Do a lot of. She didn't do much stuff, but she always talked about how much she enjoyed that with you and with. With the other mothers. And this Mother's Day, sending flowers is a classic and simple way to brighten Mom's Day. Whether she loves lilies or tulips, you can send her her favorite flowers right to her, no matter where you are in the world. DoorDash partners with local florists who put care into every arrangement, just like these beautiful ones here from Pasadena Butterflies and Pasadena Floral Design. Even after being impacted by the devastating LA fires in January, they're rebuilding and still bringing joy in their community with flowers. Everyone wants to make sure their flowers arrive fresh and beautiful with DoorDash. Every order is handled with care to make sure your gift is just right because moms deserve the best.

[Craig Robinson]

Thank you, DoorDash, for presenting today's special.

[Michelle Obama]

Episode and for making it easy to send love this Mother's Day. Thanks again to Doordash, your door. To making Mom's Day even from far away. Show mom gratitude and appreciation for all she's done, near or far. Send mom the perfect bouquet for Mother's Day through DoorDash, delivered straight to her door with care in as little as an hour. Well, this might be a good time to go to our question.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah, I even forgot we had a question.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, I know. This is, this is.

[Craig Robinson]

We went real in.

[Michelle Obama]

We went in for a bit.

[Craig Robinson]

But let's, let's take a, let's take a listen to our question.

[C]

Hi Michelle and Craig. My name is Madeline and I'm 28 years old. Last year my dad passed away after a two year fight with cancer. He was just 57. My parents were still together and happily married when he died and I have two brothers that I'm pretty close with. My family was always very tight knit and enjoyed each other's company. We had no major issues. That said, I was especially close with my dad. My brothers had a good relationship with him, but for me, my dad was my guy. We were very similar people. He was also loved by so many other people and spending time with him was so easy and felt like home. He was basically the number one person I would not have wanted to lose. I never had a bad relationship with my mom, but we've had a harder time finding her footing since my dad died. And I think because she had a mom who never fully encouraged her independence and she married my dad when she was so young. Losing him really was like having a rug pulled from under her. My brothers and I were especially surprised when she started dating so shortly after he died. She seemed like she was distracting herself rather than grieving him or grieving with us in the meantime. I've never felt further apart from my brothers. I thought we might talk more after this happened, not less. But it's like we're intentionally keeping our distance. They're also both married and have partners they can talk about this with. I'm single and suddenly feel even more alone. It's like I've gone from someone with one of the best families to being someone without much of a family at all. I never really imagined my dad's death could so swiftly destabilize our entire family structure. How could losing the same person we all loved have created such a powerful wedge among us? How can I begin to feel less alone among them in my grief? And how can we begin to rebuild the support and closeness we implicitly had as a family while my dad was still around? Thanks, Madeline.

[Michelle Obama]

Whew.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah, that's tough.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, that's a tough one. But I'm thinking about a couple of things in that. And the first one is her brothers handling the grief differently than she does. And, boy, if there was any thing that I've learned with our parents passing away is that different people handle grief differently. And it's almost like a relationship. You have to come to people's grief and meet them where they are.

[Craig Robinson]

Right.

[Michelle Obama]

And the first bit of advice I'd give Madeline, in my opinion, would be help your brothers grieve the way they need to grieve. While I know you're going through your own troubles, sort of let them grieve the way they need to. And it might be silently, you know?

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. Yeah, well. And one of the things you and I have learned, we've shared with the world our stories of our upbringing and our relationships with our parents. And in doing that, as close as we are and as close of a family as we are, there are ways that I saw our parents and certain interactions completely differently than you did. You know, we're in the same household. It wasn't like there were a bunch of kids. We weren't raised differently. But, you know, the thing Madeline has to realize is that she was very close to her father and felt a certain way. She probably has absolutely no idea what kind of relationships or set of feelings her brothers had.

[Michelle Obama]

Right.

[Craig Robinson]

Because if they haven't talked about it. Right. Words exchanged, birth order sometimes makes one kid feel unseen by the parent who saw you so clearly. And also with the gender dynamic, two sons versus a daughter. So, you know, if you don't talk to your brothers and find out, how did you feel? How did you feel about our father? What were your experiences with our father? Is there anything that I'm missing that is causing your grief to be different, other than the fact that we all grieve differently? I would just, you know, encourage Madeleine to, you know, not take this too personally, because it may be that the distance and the difference in mourning could be explained by a difference in relationship. If they're not talking, then she won't know if there's no communication at all, and it's causing her pain. I would say that it's important for her to find ways to reach out, not to force them to grieve the way she is. I think what she. She may have to be the convener now. Right. Because if her father served that role for the family and he's gone, then somebody's gotta step up and be it. And that's sort of the darn thing about being a grownup. It's like when you lose your parents, you lose the. You know, you're next up.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, right.

[Craig Robinson]

You know, and I guess, if anything, with Mom's loss, I think that. That. Thank God you're my big brother and I have a husband who's older because Barack was saying, you know, well, you're next up. And I was like, I'm not really ready to be next up. So I told him, you're next up, and Craig is next up. I delegate that power to you because it's a little. You know, that's really. When you become an adult is when your power. Parents are not in that spot of managing and maintaining. But that's gonna happen at some point where each of us in our own lives have to. We become the parent, we become the convener, we become the glue, you know, and maybe that's daunting for Madeline to kind of. No, maybe you're next up, kid. If it's important to you, because it may not be important to your brothers, especially if they have their own families and their own traditions.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. And that's what I was. Because this gets back to her statement about the family's now destabilized because the stabilizing influence is gone. And she has to remember that these two guys, they've got. They're starting their own families and she isn't. And she talks about not having any kids, and if she feels like it's being destabilized, she might have to step up and say, okay, I'm the one. I'm the anchor here. And that's. Those are big shoes to fill.

[Craig Robinson]

It is. They are very big shoes to fill. And, you know, now that you think about it, when you think about the loss of a parent, like what you. You know, it's a major shift in your life. Were your parents.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

You're. You know, I don't care how old you get.

[Michelle Obama]

Right.

[Craig Robinson]

Mom and dad are mom and dad.

[Michelle Obama]

Right.

[Craig Robinson]

You know. You know, even when I was taking care of mom, you know, it's like, I still gotta listen to her. You know, I can sort of boss her around. But in the end, she's my mother.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

There's a comfort level in that. And knowing that no matter how wise or experienced I am in the world mom was, mom always knew more.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

It's like, even if that wasn't true, it was just a good feeling that, ugh, let me go. Let me go talk to my mommy. And then that's gone. For the first time in your life, that's gonna throw Madeline. That's a big dose, and it's a big dose for all of us, especially if your parents didn't prepare you for that, if they didn't reinforce in you the maturity and the capability that you have of stepping into those shoes or making the choice not to step into it. Because that may be. Maybe that's the daunting thing for Madeline, that she doesn't wanna be the glue. She's not ready, you know, and that's okay, too. But she can't mourn it if other people aren't filling the gap and she doesn't want to. It may just be the way that.

[Michelle Obama]

It is for now, the next evolution of the family, right?

[Craig Robinson]

It may be, but I would just, you know, I would urge Madeline to fight for the family, you know, because she, right now, she feels like an unmoored ship in the middle of the ocean. And I feel for her because that's sadly, the trend in this culture now, that people feel alone and they don't have connection to family or friends. And so if Madeleine doesn't have her own community, which I would encourage her, whether her fathers were alive. This is why I say people have to build their kitchen tables. They have to spend a lifetime cultivating relationships within their family and outside of their families. Right. Because not everybody gets along with their family. You know, not everybody lives near their family. But you do need that support. And I would hate to think that in the midst of her loss of her father, her best friend, that she's got no one, that she went from having a rock to being alone. I don't want that for her.

[Michelle Obama]

Right.

[Craig Robinson]

So if she doesn't have that in her own community, then I'm like, then reach out to your brothers and figure out how to start rebuilding it. And it may take time.

[Michelle Obama]

It may take time because we're lucky. We've been close since we've been little. Right. You and I have been successful, but.

[Craig Robinson]

We work at it, too.

[Michelle Obama]

But we do. We work hard at it.

[Craig Robinson]

And this podcast. Podcast, this is a good way for the perfect me to make sure that I see him on a Regular basis. Let's do a show.

[Michelle Obama]

Although it's kind of hurt our phone game because we're saving everything.

[Craig Robinson]

Don't tell me anything. We got taping next week.

[Michelle Obama]

So let's turn to one of the other issues that Madeline had in her letter. Letter to us was that her mother started dating right away. This is something we didn't have to deal with.

[Craig Robinson]

Oh, my God. Yeah. Mom was so nice.

[Michelle Obama]

Our mother not only did she not date, she might have gone on one or two dates.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. Her theory was like, all these men are old, and all they want is somebody to feed them and give them.

[Michelle Obama]

Their medicine and take care of them.

[Craig Robinson]

And she's like. And I did. The only person I was going. The only man I was gonna do that for was your father. I was like, okay, Mom. All right. Yeah. So we had the opposite.

[Michelle Obama]

We had the opposite. But she's dealing with the fact that the person who was her main guy is gone. And.

[Craig Robinson]

And then.

[Michelle Obama]

And then his wife is out dating.

[Craig Robinson]

Right. Yeah. That must burn.

[Michelle Obama]

That's gotta hurt. Yeah, that's gotta hurt.

[Craig Robinson]

It's probably. She's probably.

[Michelle Obama]

And all I can. I want Madeline, you have to. This is. It could be a form of grieving.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Or it could be a form of relief.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. She doesn't know. She may not have known her parents relationship.

[Michelle Obama]

You don't know unless you talk to your mom about it. And to get back to your point about communication, it's gonna burn you until you talk to your mom and you can let her know how you feel. That'll be part of your dealing with the grief.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, but we didn't have to deal with that.

[Craig Robinson]

No. But, you know, Madeline points out in her letter, I mean, she makes an astute assessment that her mom never lived her life alone.

[Michelle Obama]

Right.

[Craig Robinson]

You know, she married at a young age, so I think Madeline understands her mom. Right. And so part of that understanding, I would encourage her to find the empathy in it that maybe her mom's fast dating isn't a reflection of her love for her father.

[Michelle Obama]

Right.

[Craig Robinson]

But it's just that she doesn't know how to be alone. And there are a lot of people in the world who don't know how to be alone. But that doesn't mean they didn't love or treasure the person that they spent their lives with. Some people temperamentally are afraid to be alone or need a different kind of companionship. And as you said, that's her mother's way of handling the grief, is to fill it quickly. Not saying that that's healthy. But that's what she's probably trying to do, is fill that void very. As quickly as she can. And it would be a shame if Madeleine's disconnect with her mother is due to some judgment that is, you know, lacking in empathy for where her mom is and, you know, don't let that burn the bridge. You know, I can't imagine that her father would have wanted her mother alone and lonely for the rest of her life. Even though our mom didn't date, that wasn't some wish that our father would have wanted. I think if dad had had the opportunity, he would have encouraged mom to date and find love again and to continue to build a life if she chose to do that. Right, right.

[Michelle Obama]

Or at least we hope that.

[Craig Robinson]

We hope that. But I just knowing that I don't think he would have expected her to, you know, that he would have asked that of her.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. You know, Well, I just don't think it's realistic. And we, you know, we've got some friends who are dealing with that right now. And the dad passed away, the mom started dating really quickly, and the kids aren't happy with it and the grandkids aren't happy with it, and there's a couple of people who understand it, but they can't get it out of their heads that it happens so quickly. And my advice is, you know, stop thinking about the speed with which this happened and think about the joy that your mom can sort of replenish at this point. And. But it's hard. It's hard to get that through to people.

[Craig Robinson]

Well. And as big and bad as I'm sitting here talking, I don't know how I would have felt if mom had started dating.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, I mean, but after a while it's like, you know, we wanted her.

[Craig Robinson]

To date, but if it had been the next month, I, you know.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

I think I might have been.

[Michelle Obama]

We would have been surprised.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

We would have been surprised.

[Craig Robinson]

Be like, well, where did he come from?

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

Were you keeping this old dude? You know, where'd you find him? Mom? Although she could keep some secrets. Remember when she ran, started running track meet. Track meets in her retirement?

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. She was in her 60s and started running in sprint track competitions.

[Craig Robinson]

Sprints.

[Michelle Obama]

50 yard dashes, hundred yard dashes.

[Craig Robinson]

The senior Olympics.

[Michelle Obama]

Yes. And she was wearing these skips gym shoes. She didn't even have the right grocery.

[Craig Robinson]

Store gym shoes with no grip or anything.

[Michelle Obama]

The kind she'd get from Kmart.

[Craig Robinson]

And she was winning. Winning?

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Winning trophies, winning medals.

[Craig Robinson]

So in a period, this is, I guess, what she did. Instead of finding a man, she started.

[Michelle Obama]

Running, running away from him.

[Craig Robinson]

Right, right. So she didn't tell us. She didn't tell us until she qualified for. It was state. So she went through all of this, qualified for city in her age group, came in first in the 50 yard dash in like the locals and then the citywide in Chicago.

[Michelle Obama]

Yes.

[Craig Robinson]

This is a lot of people. This is not a little town.

[Michelle Obama]

Right. She qualifies for state and had to go down to Champaign, Illinois. And that's when she decided to tell us.

[Craig Robinson]

She left a note. She didn't tell us. She left a note saying, by the way, if you're wondering where I am, I'm in Champaign, Illinois, running in a track meet.

[Michelle Obama]

And I thought I ought to tell you in case you fell.

[Craig Robinson]

Just, I had dropped dead. Oh, man. But she went on to qualify for nationals.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

And that was when she lost. She fell because she got to nationals and realized that all these other old runners were serious, like they had trained, she hadn't trained. She got up from the kitchen table, put out her cigarette and started running in kids shoes. And she wouldn't let us. Like, let's get you a trainer. Let's get you some real track shoes. She's like, that's why I didn't want you to know. I don't want your involvement.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh.

[Craig Robinson]

So she got down there and they all had their starting blocks and all this stuff. I think she had on a little T shirt and some shorts. Sitting in a windbreaker.

[Michelle Obama]

Sitting, running in a windbreaker.

[Craig Robinson]

But she didn't let us go. So anyway, we digress. But mom could keep some secrets. She could. Maybe she did have a man, for all we know. Anyway, Madeline. Back to Madeline. Sorry, Madeline lost track.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, we did lose track.

[Craig Robinson]

But yeah. Don't let this be the reason why your family falls apart after your father's passing. Because what I would urge Madeline to think about is what would her father want for his family? And we don't know him. She didn't describe him to us. But if he was the glue, as she says, then that meant that there was something glued together that he glued together. He was the glue of a unit that he valued enough to be the glue for. So that without a clear directive, was his action in the world. His family was important to him. So I think I want Madeline to think about how horrible her dad would feel. To think that his loss was the end of it. That he and he alone was the only thing keeping things together. He'd probably look at his little girl, his favorite, to say, hey, Madeline, or whatever her nickname was. You be the glue. You know, you know how to do this. You know, your knucklehead brothers, they couldn't organize their way out of a paper bag. You know, they can't get Christmas together or, you know, have enough foresight. They've got young kids. You know, why don't you get on the phone with them and figure out, you know. Cause it doesn't even take much for the glue. I mean, we don't live in the same cities. I don't see you a lot often.

[Michelle Obama]

Right.

[Craig Robinson]

Because you're in Milwaukee, I'm in D.C. you've got young kids. You know, I'm the former first lady, so sometimes coming to your house is a little bit of a hassle, even though I do. I even did pickup.

[Michelle Obama]

You did for the boys.

[Craig Robinson]

And they were happy to see me in the motorcade. I was like. And I told my detail, we're doing pickup. We're going to go to grammar school and pick up my nephews. And they were like, yes, ma'am. So off we went.

[Michelle Obama]

Three SUVs later and, and.

[Craig Robinson]

And 12 guys with guns. But I don't. I don't get to do that often. Even though when we were in the White House, we always made sure you guys came to all the fun stuff that they could come to. But it's not like we had that we even have time in. We don't live in the same city. Sometimes we go for weeks and it's a check in.

[Michelle Obama]

Right, Right. But then the other weeks, it's like.

[Craig Robinson]

Every other day if there's something to be said. So I would say to Madeline, it doesn't take. You know, you don't have to call every day. You don't have to be together every Sunday. It's not the frequency of the interaction, it's the quality of the interaction.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. So if we wanted to give Madeline a few pieces of advice. I like your advice. That she can become the stabilizing force of the family.

[Craig Robinson]

Come the blue.

[Michelle Obama]

So become the glue. And I like the meeting your brothers where they are.

[Craig Robinson]

Everybody grieves differently.

[Michelle Obama]

Everybody grieves differently. And you know what we left out that you and I talk about all the time since dad died is. It just takes time. Yeah, time. It gets better, but it takes time. And it's different time for different people. And it. It took me a long time to get over Dad's death. And while I'm not over Mom's death, I Feel more at peace with her, with the grieving timeline, than I did with dad. So that's something, Madeline, that we want you to know or want to make sure you're paying attention to, that this does get better. It does get better. And you just have to weather the storm.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

And then there was a third point that you made that I'm drawing a blank on that I should have written down. Cause we're all over the place here.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, you know, I think it's just. And it's not just a message to Madeline or Vice or. Our take on it is don't be afraid to deal with grief. You know, have the conversations while everybody is healthy. You know, don't let your grief surprise you, because it's gonna happen. And especially for parents, dealing with kids. Kids can handle it if it's not done in a devastating way. I mean, mom was. Could. Could be a little harsh about it.

[Michelle Obama]

But she was dramatic.

[Craig Robinson]

Our way of joking and teasing. And our family set us up for that. Not to totally, you know, mess our head, mess with our head. But I think preparing your kids for your loss is not a bad thing. It doesn't even mean that you have to talk about when mommy dies. But it's just getting them to a point where they understand the expectation, if something were to happen is that I need you to keep living and then do the work to help prepare them to be able to do that. That they feel secure in their own selves, that they don't feel overly dependent on you, that they understand that, you know, what lessons you expect them to know. You know, that's even before you get down to the specifics of what do people want when they die and, you know, end of life, you know, kind of directives. I mean, that's sort of the lawyerly thing to do, because you want to know all that so that you're not trying to manage that while you're grieving. You know, arguing with family members over whether somebody is cremated or what have you, it's better for the loved one, the deceased, to have made those decisions so that it eliminates the amount of tension and arguments that the survivors have to go through.

[Michelle Obama]

For sure.

[Craig Robinson]

For sure.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

But preparing your kids, if all goes well, you precede them. That's in the best possible scenario. So the question is, are your kids ready for you to precede them? And not when they're 10, but when they're 60 and 70? Because if you haven't dealt with this, age doesn't matter.

[Michelle Obama]

Right?

[Craig Robinson]

Right. I have friends who are struggling mighty. They're 70 years old. They've got parents who are 90. You know, if you aren't ready for it, it's gonna hit you. So help find a way to get your kids ready to move on with and without you. I think that helped. I think that's helped us.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And one last point. We didn't have to worry about this. Cause we, like I said, have been close. But she could use this as an opportunity to get closer with her siblings.

[Craig Robinson]

Yep. And she needs it.

[Michelle Obama]

And she needs it.

[Craig Robinson]

She needs it, and she needs it. So be the glue.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

Pick up the phone and good luck, Madeline. You're gonna be okay. You're gonna be okay. Well, thanks. I'm glad you're. You're doing okay.

[Michelle Obama]

I'm glad you're doing okay.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. But we'll keep talking.

[Michelle Obama]

We will.

[Craig Robinson]

It's been soon. You know, that's the other thing. It ebbs and flows. There's some days when I'm great, and then there are other days when something happens and it hits me. I go to reach for the phone man.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, it's funny. Kelly used to talk to mom every Sunday. It was like her thing. It was, let me get the food ready for the week and who's coming in this week? And there was this thing. She would put her phone in her shirt, and she'd be on the earpods, and she'd walk around on Sunday talking to Mom. And the other day, she was doing that, and I was thinking, I wish she was talking about Mom.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

So.

[Craig Robinson]

So.

[Michelle Obama]

Made it through.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. Way to go. Love you.

[Michelle Obama]

Love you, too.

[Craig Robinson]

Ra.