Focus On What’s Right About Young Men with Barack Obama

Summary

Episode Summary: IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson – "Focus On What’s Right About Young Men with Barack Obama"

Release Date: July 16, 2025

In this profound and engaging episode of IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson, the conversation centers around the pivotal topic of raising young men. Joined by a very special guest, former President Barack Obama, the trio delves deep into the challenges and strategies involved in fostering emotionally intelligent and competent boys in today’s society. The episode is structured into clear sections, each highlighting key discussions, insights, and heartfelt anecdotes, enriched with notable quotes and timestamps for reference.

---

1. Warm Welcome and Introduction of Barack Obama (00:00 - 03:35)

The episode kicks off with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson warmly welcoming former President Barack Obama as their esteemed guest. The familial atmosphere sets the tone for an open and candid conversation.

Notable Quote:

• Michelle Obama [02:27]: "This is the episode that everyone's been waiting for... we are honored to have Barack Obama join us."

---

2. Personal Anecdotes and Building Connections (03:35 - 10:11)

The conversation transitions to personal stories, highlighting the bond between the siblings and Barack. Michelle shares amusing interactions with fans, emphasizing the relatability and warmth that define their public personas.

Notable Quote:

• Barack Obama [07:19]: "Every one of my young male staff members... look, the starting point is this person is going to raise your children alongside you."

---

3. Listener Question: Raising Emotionally Intelligent Boys (06:13 - 09:19)

A listener named Emma from San Francisco poses a crucial question about balancing the nurturing of daughters with the need to raise emotionally intelligent and competent boys. This question serves as the central theme of the episode.

Notable Quote:

• Emma [06:13]: "How can we raise emotionally intelligent, competent men? I am deeply concerned by the ideology promoted to my younger brothers online."

---

4. Approaches to Fatherhood and Parenting Sons (09:19 - 23:16)

Barack Obama shares his approach to fatherhood, emphasizing the importance of having the right partner and balancing unconditional love with structured boundaries. He reflects on his unique upbringing, being raised primarily by his mother and grandparents, and the absence of a traditional father figure.

Notable Quotes:

• Barack Obama [07:19]: "We believed in explaining why, but we also believed in being firm."
• Craig Robinson [10:09]: "Once he did that, we had kids who slept through the night from the time they were five months old."

---

5. Defining Manhood: Then and Now (15:59 - 18:27)

The discussion shifts to the evolving definition of manhood. Both Michelle and Barack reminisce about the traditional traits associated with manhood—stoicism, strength, and providing for the family—and how these notions are being redefined to include emotional intelligence and kindness.

Notable Quotes:

• Michelle Obama [16:24]: "They were expected to go to work, provide, and protect."
• Barack Obama [18:27]: "Sometimes it's just a matter of saying to our boys, you being interested in art, you being interested in theater, that's cool."

---

6. The Importance of Community and Diverse Role Models (23:16 - 36:39)

Barack and Craig emphasize the necessity of a supportive community and the presence of diverse male role models in a boy’s life. They discuss how a broad community can provide various perspectives and support systems that compensate for any limitations in a single father figure.

Notable Quote:

• Barack Obama [59:15]: "He can't be everything."

---

7. Emotional Intelligence and the Internal Self (36:39 - 44:03)

Craig Robinson raises a poignant point about the traditional focus on external traits of manhood, such as stoicism and courtesy, often neglecting the internal emotional landscape of boys. The conversation explores the importance of nurturing emotional expression and self-awareness in young men.

Notable Quotes:

• Craig Robinson [36:39]: "How are boys being taught to help sort through their internal selves?"
• Barack Obama [38:55]: "I developed some internal vocabulary around this."

---

8. Maintaining Friendships and Social Support for Men (43:15 - 48:40)

Barack shares insights into maintaining meaningful friendships, even amidst demanding roles like the presidency. The importance of intentionality in cultivating and sustaining friendships is highlighted as a cornerstone for emotional support and mental well-being.

Notable Quotes:

• Barack Obama [43:15]: "Being intentional with your friendships, making the investment, knowing it's important, letting them know they're important to your friends."
• Michelle Obama [45:16]: "We've got to have good guys out there."

---

9. Optimism for Future Generations (74:22 - 81:20)

As the episode nears its conclusion, Michelle invites Barack to share his optimistic outlook on future generations. Barack expresses hope in the growing openness to diverse expressions of manhood and the positive impact this can have on both men and women.

Notable Quotes:

• Barack Obama [74:51]: "I think that's something that young people are more open to and recognize. And that's promising."
• Barack Obama [76:43]: "We've got to do better by our boys... producing stronger, more confident men, that's gonna be good for our girls and our women as well."

---

10. Concluding Remarks and Mutual Appreciation (81:03 - 81:20)

The episode wraps up with heartfelt expressions of gratitude and mutual appreciation among the hosts and Barack Obama, reinforcing the episode’s central themes of community, emotional intelligence, and the importance of supportive relationships in raising young men.

Notable Quotes:

• Barack Obama [81:14]: "I love you, too, man."
• Michelle Obama [81:14]: "Love you."

---

Key Takeaways and Insights

1. Balanced Parenting: Raising boys requires a balance of unconditional love and structured boundaries, similar to raising girls. Both elements are essential in fostering responsibility and independence.

2. Community Support: A supportive community with diverse male role models provides boys with various perspectives and emotional support systems, compensating for any lack of a traditional father figure.

3. Emotional Intelligence: Incorporating emotional intelligence into the definition of manhood is crucial. Encouraging boys to express and understand their emotions aids in their overall development and well-being.

4. Intentional Friendships: Maintaining meaningful friendships through intentional interactions and investments in relationships is vital for emotional support, especially for men.

5. Evolving Definitions of Manhood: Moving away from traditional stereotypes of manhood towards a more inclusive and emotionally aware model benefits both men and women, fostering healthier relationships and communities.

6. Optimism for the Future: There is a hopeful trend towards more open and diverse expressions of manhood in younger generations, which promises a positive shift in societal dynamics.

---

Conclusion

This episode of IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson offers a comprehensive and heartfelt exploration of the nuances involved in raising young men. Through personal anecdotes, expert insights, and meaningful discussions, Michelle, Craig, and Barack Obama shed light on the importance of community, emotional intelligence, and evolving definitions of manhood. The conversation underscores the collective responsibility to support and nurture the next generation of men, ensuring they grow into strong, empathetic, and responsible individuals.

Transcript

[Michelle Obama]

This woman came up to me, and she was so nice. She was like, can I have a picture? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then so you know how you get the side hug. And she's like, what did he do?

[Barack Obama]

And you knew she was gonna say, what did he do?

[Michelle Obama]

That's key.

[Barack Obama]

And I was like, it wasn't like, what happened to him?

[Craig Robinson]

That is so terrible.

[Barack Obama]

How'd he mess up?

[Michelle Obama]

How'd he mess up? And I said, well, what makes you think he messed up? Why couldn't it been?

[Craig Robinson]

Why did you just say no one messed up? Well, because.

[Michelle Obama]

I wanted to keep this conversation going so that I could tell you about.

[Craig Robinson]

Oh, Lord. This episode is brought to you by Rivian and Chase Home Lending.

[Michelle Obama]

Hey, little girl.

[Craig Robinson]

Welcome to D.C. my brother, I am.

[Michelle Obama]

So happy to be here once again.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah, it's good to have you in our town.

[Michelle Obama]

It is.

[Craig Robinson]

How's it going? You had a little flight delay.

[Michelle Obama]

I had a little travel issue, but I'm not gonna complain because we have been doing this for a little bit now.

[Craig Robinson]

I know it's always a little dicey when you have.

[Michelle Obama]

When somebody tried to travel. And, you know, I'm traveling in these streets like a regular person, so I gotta be careful, but it's not. So wait. For those of you. It was a little bit of a weather delay. Couldn't fly into D.C. had to divert our plane to Pittsburgh. I ended up staying in lovely Pittsburgh for about five hours, and I got here in one piece about midnight, always grateful. And I was able to head over to my Airbnb without bothering you. I didn't have to wake you up at 1 in the morning.

[Craig Robinson]

I love this, having you stay with us, though. You're such a Airbnb devp.

[Michelle Obama]

I am, I am. I've really changed my behavior.

[Craig Robinson]

But how's this one?

[Michelle Obama]

This one's really nice. You know, it. Actually, this one's really nice because it's just ordinary. It's like an ordinary spot. It's sort of like, are you in.

[Craig Robinson]

A neighborhood this year?

[Michelle Obama]

I'm in a neighborhood. Can walk around and right across from a church.

[Craig Robinson]

How are you close to us?

[Michelle Obama]

I'm about two miles from here, so it took me like, 20 minutes to get here this morning.

[Craig Robinson]

That's good.

[Michelle Obama]

It's really a neat.

[Craig Robinson]

It's good to have you here.

[Michelle Obama]

It's good to be here.

[Craig Robinson]

And we've got a very special guest today.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, very.

[Craig Robinson]

Let me stop saying very, very, very, very special. Someone near and dear.

[Michelle Obama]

This is the episode that everyone's been waiting for. Because with bated breath. Because we have. My brother in law, my man, My man, the former President of the United States.

[Craig Robinson]

He made time in his busy schedule.

[Michelle Obama]

Come on, imo.

[Craig Robinson]

We are just so grateful we have the full President of the United States.

[Michelle Obama]

We are honored to have Barack Obama join us.

[Craig Robinson]

Barack Obama, can you join us on our.

[Michelle Obama]

Come on out here, brother.

[Craig Robinson]

Welcome to imo. Look at you.

[Michelle Obama]

Hi.

[Craig Robinson]

How are you?

[Michelle Obama]

Wait, you guys like each other?

[Craig Robinson]

Oh, yeah. Really? Huh?

[Michelle Obama]

That's so nice.

[Craig Robinson]

The rumor mill. It's my husband, y'.

[Barack Obama]

All. She took me back.

[Craig Robinson]

Now, don't start.

[Michelle Obama]

I can't.

[Barack Obama]

It was touch and go for a while. It's.

[Michelle Obama]

It's so nice to have you both in the same room together.

[Craig Robinson]

I know. Cause when we aren't folks think we're divorced.

[Michelle Obama]

Let me tell you. First of all, see, I'm in Wichita, Kansas, for Austin's tournament. And you know, this podcast has made me quite popular.

[Barack Obama]

You're a big fan.

[Craig Robinson]

You're famous.

[Michelle Obama]

And people come up to me all the time. This woman came up to me and she was so nice. She was like, can I have a picture? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, so you know how you get the side hug? And she's like, what did he do?

[Barack Obama]

And you knew she was gonna say what?

[Michelle Obama]

He knew. And he. And I was.

[Barack Obama]

It wasn't like, what happened to him?

[Craig Robinson]

That is so terrible.

[Barack Obama]

How'd he mess up?

[Michelle Obama]

How'd he mess up? And I said, well, what makes you think he messed up? Why couldn't it been?

[Craig Robinson]

Why didn't you just say no one messed up? Well, because.

[Michelle Obama]

I wanted to keep this conversation going so that I could tell you about it.

[Barack Obama]

Oh, Lord.

[Michelle Obama]

I was like, what? What? And she's like, he did something, didn't he? I was like, don't worry, everything's fine. And let me tell you, she was so happy. You would have thought I gave her a Christmas gift.

[Barack Obama]

These are the kinds of things that I just miss, right? So I don't even know this stuff's going on.

[Michelle Obama]

Right?

[Barack Obama]

And then somebody will mention it to me and I'm all like, what are you talking about?

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

There hasn't been one moment in our where I thought about quitting my man. And we've had some really hard times. So we had a lot of fun times, a lot of adventures. And I have become a better person because of the man I'm married to.

[Barack Obama]

Okay, don't make me cry now. Right at the beginning of the show.

[Michelle Obama]

Aw, isn't that.

[Barack Obama]

Don't let me start tearing up now.

[Michelle Obama]

And welcome to imo.

[Craig Robinson]

Welcome to imo. Get you all teared up. See, but this is why I can't talk. See, you can take the hard stuff, but when I start talking about the sweet stuff, you're like, stop. No, I can't do it.

[Barack Obama]

No, no, I love it. I'm enjoying it.

[Craig Robinson]

But thank you, honey, for being on our show. Thanks for.

[Barack Obama]

Thrilled to be here.

[Craig Robinson]

We got.

[Barack Obama]

You guys are doing good. Of course I've been listening.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. What? Any tips? Any, you know, any observations.

[Barack Obama]

You know, Craig can tighten up a little bit. You're doing great.

[Craig Robinson]

Thanks, honey. Hey, and that's why we're married. For I got you, Phoebe. I thought so.

[Michelle Obama]

See, now that's what a brother in law is for, folks.

[Barack Obama]

Absolutely.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, we've got a question today from a listener in San Francisco named Emma.

[Barack Obama]

Okay, I want to hear from Emma.

[Michelle Obama]

And let's hear from Emma so we can dive into this topic.

[Craig Robinson]

Hi, Michelle and Craig. I have three younger brothers and I'm a new mom to a one year old little boy. What can we do to change the fact that we raise our girls and we love our boys? There is so much dialogue on raising strong, independent women, but how can we raise emotionally intelligent, competent men? I am deeply concerned by the ideology promoted to my younger brothers online. I want to raise a young man who sees through those ideas. How can we energize the discussion around raising young men that want to change these oppressive and even violent dynamics?

[Michelle Obama]

Now before we dig in.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

You two have raised two wonderful daughters and have taught them numerous lessons. And I just want to hear from Barack how you approached raising your daughters, because this was obviously before you got to the White House. So you were just like the rest of us, just a regular dad who's having kids and going to work and trying to make time. What was your strategy?

[Barack Obama]

Well, first of all, the most important strategy, whether it was a boy or a girl, was having the right partner. And now that I'm not, that's that I say, even behind her back.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

Every one of my young male staff members, when they talk to me about dating and relationships and what to look for, I say, look, the starting point is this person is going to raise your children alongside you. And so I'll be honest with you, Michelle being Malia and Sasha's mom, that made all the difference. And I do think, for whatever reason, we had similar strategies in the sense that I think we both believed that you give unconditional love to kids, but you also give them structure that you're Always there for them and keeping them safe. But you're also saying as early as two or three, no, you can't do that. No, you can't have that. We believed in explaining why, but we also believed in being firm. We had bedtimes and bath times, and you had to eat your vegetables even if you didn't like them. And you couldn't act stupid in public and couldn't do it.

[Craig Robinson]

Couldn't whine.

[Barack Obama]

Couldn't whine, throw tantrums. And so we had, I think, a shared vision of how to, you know, what your mom always used to talk about. You're raising adults, right? And so you're starting off saying to them, here, consequences for your actions. Here's responsibilities that we think you can handle, make mistakes and learn from them. So we had that.

[Craig Robinson]

And let me just say, too, just so that people understand, the kind of father Barack was from the beginning is that he was an engaged father from the minute they were born. And he wasn't the kind of man that was like, I don't do this. I don't change diapers. Hand them to me when they talk. And I can, you know, and I can relate. They make me feel comfortable. You know, we. As when Malia was a baby, we shared 50. 50.

[Michelle Obama]

I took the night shift, he took.

[Barack Obama]

Cause I'm the night owl.

[Craig Robinson]

Took the night shift, he's the night owl. And that helped me because I wasn't sleep deprived because I would pump while I was breastfeeding, which wasn't for a long time, and I would go to bed at a reasonable bedtime, and I could hand my baby, and I will say, because she was my baby, over to this guy and know that stinky man and know that she would be alive in the morning.

[Michelle Obama]

Right.

[Craig Robinson]

You know, and he relished that time. But I also had to let go. Right. I had to say, you know what? Whatever is happening between 8 at night and 5 in the morning, I can't micromanage that relationship. They're gonna be okay. She's a baby. He was the one who got her sleep trained. Because I wouldn't have been able to handle letting my baby cry it out.

[Michelle Obama]

Right?

[Craig Robinson]

Right. But over the course of a week, I think three days.

[Michelle Obama]

It was three days. It wasn't even a week.

[Craig Robinson]

It wasn't even a long time at five months. So once he did that. So we had kids who slept through the night from the time they were five months old. So because we shared that responsibility and Barack owned a huge part of the Girls as infants, it Established a relationship between him and them that, you know, carries through even today.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, you know, that brings me what you said. What you both have said brings me to a question that I'm gonna ask, but I'm gonna contextualize it with the fact that when, after you guys became famous, people would ask me about you guys meeting and how you came about and the origin story and all of that, and what I always talked about, and it warms my heart to this day, is that Barack's background is so different from our background. I mean, it's so different, and everybody knows. And I used to say, in spite of the fact that we were raised so differently, somehow you developed the exact same values that we did.

[Craig Robinson]

So much of Barack reminded us of our dad.

[Michelle Obama]

Our dad. And the stuff he said, stuff you said.

[Craig Robinson]

And it was like his consistency, his honesty, his, you know, his humor, your.

[Michelle Obama]

Authenticity before people were using that word, authenticity, your calmness. And it just. I brought that up because I think people who haven't asked me that question should know and probably want to know, how did that evolve?

[Barack Obama]

Yeah. You know, it's interesting because this relates to how I was thinking about fatherhood, too. Right. I. As. I think most people now know, you guys certainly know. I did not know my dad.

[Michelle Obama]

Right.

[Barack Obama]

He was in Kenya by the time I had memories. He left my mother and I when I was two. I met him once. And so I'm really raised by my mom and my grandparents for about four years. My stepfather, when we were in Indonesia, who was a very kind man, Maya's dad, my sister's dad, and I have very fond memories of him. But one of the reasons it worked was he didn't pretend like our relationship was more than it was. He was like, look, I'm married to your mom. I love you. I'm gonna take care of you. But I understand, you know, we're different. And then my grandfather was older. He's white, generationally different, a good heart, but was troubled in a lot of ways and had issues. So I didn't have, like, the obvious role model the way you did of. All right, here's how you. Or a dad. And I didn't really have a bunch of uncles around or other immediate family father figures. So I'm kind of piecing it together.

[Craig Robinson]

Which is true for so many. That's the story for so many boys growing up these days.

[Barack Obama]

I mean, in that sense, I think as unusual as my background was, that part of it isn't that unusual. Right. It was kind of typical, and I think a Couple of things happened. Now, I was loved and that's a starting point. Right. The people who were around me cared about me and I never felt an absence of that. And the second thing I think you learn to do when you're in that situation is, all right, I got a sort of, I have to adopt role models. I gotta piece them together and get a sense of, all right, what does it mean to be a man? Now, later on, as I got older, you'd start recognizing that some of the ideas about manhood that were being given to us back in the 70s and the 80s, not all of them were great. Right.

[Craig Robinson]

Can I ask you both to talk about what that, what manhood meant for you, what it meant for you when you were little boys coming up, what you thought it was and what you then came to understand it, to actually be?

[Barack Obama]

Well, I don't remember maybe when I was a really young child, other than the idea that guys were strong, they didn't whine, they were tough.

[Michelle Obama]

They were expected to go to work. They worked and provide. Right. And protect.

[Barack Obama]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

I mean, and I think back about dad, when I'm thinking about dad as a role model. I remember the fact that here you have a man who has Ms. And he's getting up and he's going to work absolutely every day and he is not complaining. That's another thing. Men didn't complain.

[Barack Obama]

You don't complain. You're stoic.

[Michelle Obama]

I love that word, stoic. Coach Carmody used to use that all the time, stoic. But our dad never complained. He never got up. He had a sense of humor. That was another thing that you learned from guys is that you needed a sense of humor. And. But one of the most important things that I remember is that you got along, got along.

[Craig Robinson]

You got along, period.

[Michelle Obama]

Period. You got along with the other guys you were with. You got along with your teammates, you got along with your coworkers. Nobody wanted to be considered a jerk.

[Barack Obama]

That is true. Some of the definitions of manhood, I think were negative. Right? You don't whine, you don't cry, no emotion, you're not a jerk. I do like the thing you brought up though, about being a protector. Because for some reason that part of it, I think appealed to me. And at its best, it then counterbalanced the idea of being strong right by you're strong not to pick on people, not to be a bully, not to dominate others. Instead, it's strength in order to protect. And for me, a lot of being a man was being self sufficient. The idea of I can handle myself and make my way through the world.

[Michelle Obama]

And.

[Barack Obama]

You know, I tell this story. You've heard this story. And sometimes people kind of freak out fairly early on because I was.

[Craig Robinson]

People do freak out over this because.

[Barack Obama]

I was living in Indonesia. I'd fly from Hawaii to Indonesia on my own if I was visiting my grandparents, even at the age of eight. And it was cool because stewardess was there. She grabbed you and put you in the seat and give you a little. If it was Pan Am, you know.

[Craig Robinson]

They'D have a little flight pin.

[Barack Obama]

Little pin, Flight pin. You know, give you soda pop. And so I felt very grown up. I didn't mind. So I was used to traveling pretty far distances alone. And coming back from Jakarta, Indonesia, when I was at this point, probably 10, maybe 11, my mother, who was working there and was about to go into the field, dropped me off. I had my little suitcase, and she gave me a hug. Love you, babe. And then took off. And she was about to actually leave the city.

[Craig Robinson]

Didn't walk them to the gate, just at the airport.

[Barack Obama]

We were there. Yeah. And come to find out, she had forgotten to give me my passport.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, wow.

[Barack Obama]

And I didn't really kind of find this out until I'm about to go through customs. And so I'm problem solving a little bit here. And I'm thinking, okay, Jakarta is a city of, like, 8 million people.

[Michelle Obama]

It's not a small airport.

[Barack Obama]

This is like being in New York or something, being in LaGuardia.

[Craig Robinson]

And there's no cell phones, and there.

[Barack Obama]

Are no cell phones back then and whatnot. So I'm thinking, okay, I think she had to stop by her office first before she left town. I asked, you know, Stuart, going to leave the bag with him. I go outside, there are these little rickshaw type things called BET shocks. And I say, can you give me a ride to where my mom's office is? And I don't have any money, but I know if I get there, hopefully I catch her. Get there, she's just about pulling out. I tell her, hey, mom, you forgot the passport. Oh, by the way, I got this driver. We gotta pay and get back in time and make my flight. And when Michelle hears this story. Right, right. She's horrified. And I'm sure Kelly, if she heard this story, would be horrified as well. I have to say that for me, it was like, oh, I can handle this. And I don't remember feeling scared or worried or neglected. I just remember thinking, okay, how do I figure this out? And I felt good about the fact that I'd figured it out, and I do think that that element of being a man for me was important. Now, keep in mind, my mother was 18 when she had me. Right. So around this time, she's not much older than Malia. And in that sense, I think I felt more protective towards her and didn't feel as if somehow, well, the str. That I needed to or should depend on her in order to make sure that I'm handling my business and.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, there's a spectrum of parenting. I mean, they label it now. There's the helicopter, and then there's the. What is the jungle parent or the free willing. They call it something free range parenting.

[Barack Obama]

Free range parenting.

[Craig Robinson]

Right.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah. My mother was definitely in the free range category.

[Craig Robinson]

Category, love me to death. But they are. The story you tell is the story of probably most kids. A lot of kids across the country, if, you know, you're a single parent, you don't have somebody at home. A lot of kids are. They gotta get up, make their own breakfast, find their way. They're doing that every day. Because there isn't an alternative.

[Barack Obama]

Correct. And figuring out what that balance is.

[Craig Robinson]

Figuring out what? That's exactly the point. What is the balance is tough. Which is very different from how we parented our kids, How Kelly is. And you and Kelly are parenting your younger sons now.

[Barack Obama]

Part of it, don't you think? Part of it was also time specific in the sense that when we were coming up, you know, the idea of kids just being out and having adventures and just getting home in time for dinners, you know, especially during the summers. Right. Part of what happened and maybe affected boys a little more than girls, I don't know, is that freedom, that sense of being able to build up resilience and a sense of competence and a sense of, I can manage the world around me because the stakes weren't so high. When I think about kids now on the south side, same neighborhoods where you guys grew up, but the chances of possibly getting shot or the chances of some other terrible thing happening are higher. And I think that affected everybody's parenting, and it affected how we handle kids. So that now suddenly, instead of just saying, all right, get out of here and come back for dinner time, now it's a play date, and where are you? And do we know the parents where you're playing? And so on and so forth, we.

[Craig Robinson]

See a good example in it, in one of my favorite shows on Netflix that has become the topic of conversation amongst a lot of people, particularly in black homes, is this Series Forever, which is a beautiful story of young love in a black neighborhood. And it is not traumatic and bad things don't happen.

[Barack Obama]

It's just regular kids.

[Craig Robinson]

It's just regular kids that reflects all of our lives in real ways. And I know you watched some of that and Barack, you are well aware of it. But the show has created a lot of conversation in terms of how do you raise emotionally intelligent boys and what we get right and what we get wrong, not just among boys, but kids in general.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, we watched it as a family. We watched the whole series as a family and enjoyed it a lot. And it was really fun to hear the boys talk about, oh, you guys would have done that or you guys wouldn't have done that. That was eye opening as a parent, you know, because they're evaluating you.

[Barack Obama]

They've got a little checklist.

[Michelle Obama]

They're evaluating our parenting or they're evaluating their parenting based on their own.

[Barack Obama]

That's the crazy thing dad would do.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, yeah. But this brings me back to Emma. Emma's trying to raise these boys, and so she's trying to be somewhere between forever and then the other show that people are talking about, adolescence, which I haven't watched yet, which it gets into sort of the misogyny that young boys are exposed to and the online, you know, the manosphere.

[Craig Robinson]

They're getting their parenting online. They're getting their notions of manhood from extreme extremists.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, extremists.

[Barack Obama]

Well, let me ask you this.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

Cause let's go back to the original question. All right. Emma's trying to figure out how to raise boys. I think we did a pretty good job of raising our girls. But I've said often that I think I would have had more difficulty raising a son. I agree, because I think I might have been more judgmental harder. And I would have tried to. I like to think I would have been more self aware enough to combat that. But I just think father son relationships for me, particularly if I don't have a dad around to show it to me, might have been more difficult. So talk about, Craig. Just how you thought about it. Was it just. You took what your dad had done and you said, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna try the same thing.

[Craig Robinson]

Were there things.

[Barack Obama]

Did it change over time?

[Michelle Obama]

It was a little bit of everything, what you're both saying. Initially I thought, okay, I'm gonna take what I learned from dad. All the things that I thought were positive, and then the couple of things that I thought were negative, I was gonna Try and repurpose.

[Barack Obama]

Right.

[Craig Robinson]

What were some of the.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, I mean, just kind of the stuff that I named before. The willingness to get up and go to work every day. Taking me with him to see what it was like to have male relationships either at work, at the barbershop, you know, he didn't go to the gym, but in places where men hung out. The record store. We would go to the record store every now and then, and he'd have a bunch of friends there. That sounds like an old. I know the right idea, going to the record store.

[Barack Obama]

Oh, it's come back.

[Craig Robinson]

It's come back.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, it hasn't. Okay, good.

[Barack Obama]

It's retro.

[Michelle Obama]

But those were some of the positive things. You know how to walk with mom when you're walking down the street, Always walk up the street side on the street side, and holding the door and opening the door for her, allowing her to go in. It was just things like that. And then I'd have to really work at thinking of something negative that dad did. But.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, what about. Let me ask this, though. I mean, dad also came home, put his feet up. He didn't always cook. He didn't do dishes he didn't do.

[Michelle Obama]

But you have to remember that I was thinking at the time that was okay. Cause he was at work all day and he needed to rest, and mom was always cooking. So. But that's a good one. That's a good. Potential negative gender roles.

[Barack Obama]

Very clear.

[Michelle Obama]

Very, very clear gender roles.

[Craig Robinson]

Very clear.

[Michelle Obama]

And I thought, okay, I'm gonna do the positive things and then sort of expose Avery, who's my oldest, to less of the negative things. And you have to remember, Avery's 33, so he didn't have to worry. We didn't have to worry about social media. There was very little Internet. You know, we really focused on how to behave out in public as a guy, or I should say, how to get along, how to treat girls, how to have conversations. But with Austin and Aaron, it's more of how do you deal with social media? Which was in forever the whole premise of the show. What are you supposed to say when you do that? Spoiler alert was a video that got leaked. So we're constantly talking to them about that. And now I have even more things to draw from, because I raised Avery, and there were some things that I was like, I wish I hadn't done that.

[Barack Obama]

I could have done that better.

[Michelle Obama]

I could have done that better. Whether it was sort of teaching them how to drink me. If you don't know how to you could end up in a bad situation. You know, more direct conversations about the first time you were with a woman intimately.

[Barack Obama]

Do you mean sex? Craig?

[Michelle Obama]

I do. I do mean sex. And it's funny how I was tempted around, got a little I was gonna let I feel like I'm on television.

[Craig Robinson]

It would make me nervous. I was just like, let me just let him get through this.

[Michelle Obama]

Hey everyone, it's your boy Craig Robinson here. And if you've been listening and watching our show, you will know that I have become an Airbnb guy. And I used to be a non stop hotel guy. But I gotta tell you, I really enjoy finding a nice place using the Guest Favorites feature on the Airbnb app. And the reason why I like it is because people just like you have visited many of these places and have rated them as their favorite. And it makes it easy for me to make a decision when I'm planning my trips. Just take this trip that I'm on right now. I'm here in Washington D.C. knocking out a bunch of episodes for IMO and I am staying in a nice Airbnb in a wonderful neighborhood in walking distance to great restaurants, to great coffee shops, to the park. And it's really getting warm in D.C. and this place has a really nice background. I can sit outside in private and enjoy the weather. Relying on the Guest Favorites feature has made picking a place for me to stay even easier. So the next time you're planning a trip, why don't you try the Guest Favorites feature on the Airbnb app. This episode of IMO is sponsored by Chase Home Lending, helping you navigate the journey to your new home with confidence. Chase Home Lending understands that buying a home can feel overwhelming, especially when balancing career and family demands. They're committed to supporting you every step of the way, offering personalized guidance and flexible solutions to fit your unique needs. This reminds me of the story when my wife Kelly bought her first place before we got married. You know, once she decided to buy a place, we knew that that was stressful enough on its own. Then came the actual execution of the idea. We talked about the stress of the size of the transaction, the money needed for the down payment, but just as important was gathering all the documents needed by the bank. It didn't have to be that stressful. Whether you're a first time home buyer or looking to upgrade, Chase's Home lending experts and smart digital tools can guide you through the process, providing necessary support for informed decision making. Dreaming of a home? Connect with a home lending [e-mail] start to get started member FDIC equal housing opportunity this episode of Imo is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Financial security isn't just about the here and now. It's about the future. That's why we love what Progressive is doing to help people attain and maintain and build wealth through home ownership. For over 80 years, Progressive has led with the belief that insurance should do more than just protect. It should propel people forward their commitment to not only helping more first generation homeowners stay protected, but also support communities through Progressive's down payment assistance program, the UP Payment program, which will help drive real impact, making the dream of home ownership more attainable for everyone. You know, my wife Kelly and I are currently in the process of redoing our bathroom. We just started out and haven't done the demolition yet, but we know that this will add to the value of our house. So thank you Progressive for helping families plan ahead and for sponsoring our show. Visit progressive.com OpenTheHouse to learn more.

[Barack Obama]

I love what you were talking about earlier, and this was part of my thinking about being a man and being a protector was the little things, you know, getting somebody's chair, opening a door, you know, helping, you know, standing up if you're on the bus.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

And giving your seat to somebody else. Right. A lot of the basic things that also just had to do with being thoughtful. Right. This was like being kind. Being kind. I mean, this was male expressions of kindness and consideration.

[Michelle Obama]

It used to be called common courtesy.

[Barack Obama]

Common courtesy.

[Craig Robinson]

Can I ask, because as you guys are talking about these characteristics and traits, again, a lot of it is how to behave the external part of you. But I think what I hear that gets missed and was missed in you guys growing up in definitions of manhood was the internal self.

[Barack Obama]

Yes.

[Craig Robinson]

Right. Because all stoicism is external manners, common courtesy. It's all external protecting. It's all outward. It's like, how do you appear? I don't want you to get arrested, so you have to behave in a certain way. I want you to be polite because I want you to be safe. Right. And there's not a lot of conversation at this table about, well, how do you feel? And how are boys being taught to help sort through their internal selves? It's almost like you're supposed to pretend like you don't have an internal self, an internal emotion of hurt or fear or all the things that are natural of any human. But definitely, you know, fears and emotions that young boys, adolescent men, grown men are feeling. But there's no talk in any of these conversations about being anyone, father present, father, not helping boys guide through that piece of it. It's almost as if we are raising boys and pretending like their outward selves are the only things that matter and therefore who they are internally, how they process, how they deal with fear and hurt. That's not even on the list of.

[Michelle Obama]

No, I would agree with you. It's not on the list because I don't know about you, but during my upbringing, nobody talked about that.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. So you couldn't even have that for yourself.

[Michelle Obama]

I wouldn't even known how to have it. Right. I would have. I'm just trying to think about the times when I felt insecure. That's internal. Or I felt fear, or I felt some sort of way. I could always go to dad and say, I'm feeling this because of something that took place. I didn't even know that I could be feeling this just inside and not manifesting itself. It was always a discussion on something, that it was some issue that had come up.

[Barack Obama]

And so it was a problem solving conversation.

[Michelle Obama]

It was always a problem solving conversation.

[Barack Obama]

Well, look, I do think that is part of the culture we grew up in was not that you didn't have feelings, but you ascribed them to a certain situation. Somebody's messing with you, you're getting bullied at school, you didn't make the team. How should you deal with this? Right. And then there would be real conversations, but it very much was around. All right, Stuff happens in the world and you've got to deal with it. And it goes back to the whole notion of being strong, self reliant, don't be a baby, et cetera. I do think that one of the differences for me was being raised by a teen mom and young mother was she would talk to me a lot about how she was feeling, and in turn I could talk to her about how I was feeling. And so I do think I developed some internal vocabulary around this. And frankly, and I know this conforms to my nerdy reputation that my wife likes to tease me about, but books taught me a lot about emotions, like reading and movies and TV shows, et cetera. But. But getting that sense of, oh, this is what people go through, and developing kind of an inner monologue about situations. How are other people feeling? How am I feeling? I tried to kind of piece that together and it was imperfect, but at least there were avenues in which I could have those conversations. Craig, I am interested. And what you described in terms of your relationship with your dad, so did that then carry over to how you interacted with your friends coming up. And was there a point in time where you thought, okay, when I'm dealing with Avery or Aaron or Austin, I need to maybe have a different approach. I need to share more of my emotions so that they feel like they can come to me and talk about theirs. What was that process?

[Michelle Obama]

So the process was this. I felt like once I had kids, I had to reevaluate everything, which included my relationships with my friends and family and work and the whole thing. And I realized when Avery was born, I needed to cut down my circle of friends to the serious ones because I've got some serious business of raising this kid, these kids. When Leslie came along and it was about that time that I was. It is probably the first time where I had really deep conversations with my male friends where you started to understand, okay, something's going on with this person. Let me find out what it is. Something's going on with me. Let me share it.

[Barack Obama]

Right?

[Michelle Obama]

That's the hardest part, at least for me.

[Craig Robinson]

One of the things you've both been good at is having male friend groups. And studies show that the rate of loneliness among young men and older men has gone up, which pushes them into these manosphere spaces because it's the only place they're going to find community or to talk to one another. Can you guys talk about how you both have managed to maintain friendships? What do you think is different about the way you guys have lived lives? I mean, Barack, you've maintained your friends through being in the White House, but there are a lot of men out there in the world who say that they don't have more than a couple of friends, if that.

[Barack Obama]

I was in high school, mostly being raised by my grandparents, and I ended up making a bunch of friends, a lot of them who were basketball players, but not all. And it wasn't until later that I realized actually they were all kids of divorced parents, so they're all being raised by single moms. It was almost like we kind of created our little tribe of found community, a found family. And you now know them all. Bobby Titcomb and Greg Orme and Mike Ramos. And they were an opportunity for me actually to learn how to share. And what that did teach me was that having male friends I could talk to and count on was important to my life. And it turns out actually what we've learned is our families, our nuclear family was healthier and happier precisely because we had a bunch of friends and we had essentially non blood aunts and uncles and cousins. Play cousins and all that, who were around all the time, Right. But even with my close male friends, there was a phase when we were in our 30s and into our early 40s, first of all, we just didn't have that much money and they were living in different places, so we couldn't see each other all the time. But we did stay in touch.

[Michelle Obama]

And.

[Barack Obama]

What I figured out, and that lasted through the White House as I collected other friends in Chicago and in college, was just being intentional with your friendships, making the investment, knowing it's important, letting them know they're important to your friends. Small gestures, all that stuff mattered. And I do think that guys sometimes don't do that. Like, the idea is, all right, well, if you're around, we can hang out. If it happens, it happens.

[Craig Robinson]

But yeah, I know so many men who don't call each other, they don't talk on a regular basis, they're just friends. And it's like, well, I saw him three years ago. He's my best friend.

[Barack Obama]

Right. And so I think I have gotten better about this. And one of the things that got me through the White House was that those same three friends that I knew, you know, from high school, I saw them all the time. And Bobby Titcomb became a. Was during most of the White House, was a commercial fisherman in Hawaii, and Greg Orme was managing a yogurt plant in Orem, and Mike Ramos was an accountant. And. But the sense of trust and the memories we shared and them having our backs and them loving our daughters. And we set up this thing. Michelle did this. One of the best gifts I ever got for my birthday was my 50th, and it was a rough time. I was getting my butt kicked in the presidency. And she organized my 50th birthday, brought all these friends from all my different walks of life to Camp David for a weekend. And of course, being boys, we just started competing.

[Craig Robinson]

It was organized competition.

[Barack Obama]

And we had so much fun that we made it into an annual thing that we started calling Camp Athlon even after it was no longer at Camp David. And, you know, you get these, you know, 12, 15 middle aged men running around.

[Craig Robinson]

The numbers have grown.

[Barack Obama]

You know, you have bowling or playing ping pong, you've seen it.

[Craig Robinson]

It's quite the spectacle.

[Michelle Obama]

It's quite the spectacle, yes.

[Barack Obama]

But the point is just creating some structures where guys can get together and then in stride, in the flow now a whole bunch of stuff is shared, talked about, et cetera. That turned out to be something that mattered a lot to me. But what's been your secret to maintaining your friendships?

[Michelle Obama]

It's been your last point of being intentional. And to Misha's point, I would say in the last, let's call it seven years. So that's not long at all I have because of these kinds of discussions, I have picked up the phone and called my friends more often than I had done in the past. This episode is brought to you by Rivian and their fully electric full sized SUVs and pickups that are designed for all of life's adventures. The folks at Rivian lent me an R1S to drive around while I'm here in LA and it has been awesome. You know, I'm six' six and there is plenty of leg room and headroom for a guy like me. In addition, there's also great cargo space for my luggage. So so learn more right [e-mail] this episode of Imo is brought to you by Cologuard, a non invasive Colon Cancer Screening test. As it stands, colon cancer is on the rise in people under 50, which is why the American Cancer Society recommends that if you're at average risk, you begin screening at 45. Even if you live a healthy lifestyle and don't have symptoms, no one is at low risk for colon cancer. We want to make sure our listeners know that colon cancer can be treatable in nine out of 10 people, but the key here is that it has to be caught early. With the Cologuard test, you can take control of your colon cancer screening through a prescription based test with none of the prep that's required of a colonoscopy. Not only is the Cologuard test effective for colon cancer screening, but it can even detect pre cancer. And in addition to its convenience, the Cologuard test is also affordable. Most insured patients find they pay nothing out of pocket with zero downtime, no special preparation, and a screening test that's delivered right to your door. Don't let your health take a backseat. So if you're 45 or older and at average risk, ask your healthcare provider about screening for colon cancer with the Cologuard test. You can also request a Cologuard prescription [e-mail] podcast. The Cologuard test is intended to screen adults 45 and older at average risk for colorectal cancer. Do not use a Cologuard test if you have adenomas, have inflammatory bowel disease and certain hereditary syndromes, or a personal or family history of colorectal cancer. The Cologuard test is not a replacement for colonoscopy in high risk patients. Cologuard test performance in adults ages 45 to 49 is estimated based on a large clinical study of patients 50 and older. False positives and false negatives can occur. Cologuard is available by prescription only. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Indeed. And you know, one skill that has helped me over my years is adaptability. You know, I started out as a college basketball player and was fortunate enough to get drafted and I went to try out, got cut, had to make a pivot. I went from being at an NBA camp to an overseas camp and I played over there for a couple of years and then came back to the United States and made another pivot. And I got into the investment business, which was a brand new experience for me. So I had to be adaptable and I went from there back to business school and I had to be adaptable yet again and be back into learning mode. And subsequently, after spending 14 years in the investment industry, I came back to basketball as a coach. And it's really important that I let myself learn, continue to learn, be adaptable and be willing to pivot. Being open to change helped me explore roles I hadn't really originally planned for, which made my career richer and more fulfilling. Indeed helps people do the same by identifying their existing skills and connecting them to new opportunities. Through Indeed, people can find better work that fits their skills, even if it means shifting career paths or trying something new, just like my own. Adaptability has opened doors for me. Indeed's mission is to empower everyone to leverage their skills for better work. Whether adaptability is a skill you have or not, Indeed can help connect the skills you have to new opportunities. When people feel confident in their skills and open to change, the world truly can work better.

[Craig Robinson]

I do want to talk to Emma as a mother, because she's a mother trying to figure this out. And I do think there's a question, like the original question, of why do we love our sons and raise our daughters? And I think that's something worth sort of talking through among mothers, because sadly, many mothers are parenting alone, which is a huge problem, I think. Scott Galloway There are other researchers out there who say that one of the challenges that boys face is that there just aren't enough men in their lives. You know, the men have disappeared, whether through divorce or fatherhood. There are small numbers of male teachers and in high schools, boys are growing up in an education system where they're mostly surrounded by women. Barack, you talked about the fact. You've talked about the fact that the entire education system isn't even designed to recognize boys and what they need. So what do we say to Emma? Cause, again, we don't know whether she's parenting alone or whether she has a husband. But I do think that mothers struggle to figure out what do their sons need, and so they wind up operating out of their own fears and their own instincts, which is to love unconditionally. I think mom was like this. She raised me to be tough because I think she knew what it was like to be a woman. In her mind, she knew what she was preparing me for. The insults, the limitations, the whatever you. The sexism, the biases, the sexism, the biases. So she knew you have to have a mouth. You have to be able to speak up for yourself with you. She wanted you to be nice so that you wouldn't get in trouble or you wouldn't get arrested. But was that who you were? So what do we say to the Emmas of the world? How do we sort of start thinking as a society about helping mothers raise sons? Because they're doing it alone, and we're being told that we don't have what it takes to give boys all of what they need.

[Barack Obama]

Well, look, I think you started hinting at it as somebody who was raised by a single mom, not perfectly, but that unconditional love as a start, is the right one. I do think, though, thinking about raising boys in the same way you're thinking about raising daughters, which is how do you make them good, responsible people who know how to function and know how to understand themselves well enough that they can navigate this really complicated world and setting high expectations? So there are a lot of these things that apply to boys and girls. I do think that there are some particular issues with boys that as a society, we're not addressing. I do think as a society, we have to create more structures for boys and men to have guidance, rituals, frameworks, encouragement, to be able to meet a wide range of role models so that whatever their inclinations, they can see a path to success that isn't just sports or money, you know, making a lot of money. And so that's on all of us together. What I would say to Emma would be, in your community, if, even if you have a wonderful male partner who's in the house, I think it still would be good to find assets in the community, people in the community, friends in your community, places of worship, community organizations, what have you, where there are a Bunch of men who can be sort of elders to boys. And so they're not just looking at one particular role model, but many. And you know, one of the things, when Michelle and I first started dating and I'd go over to your guys house, one of the things I loved was just, you know, seeing all your uncles and your cousins. And there were a bunch of different kinds of men. You know, there were men that were kind of soft spoken and then there were men that were loud and there were men who were engineers and then there were men who were police officers. Police officers or they drove, you know, a jit cab. And that's one of the things that I think a lot of times boys need is not just exposure to one guy. One dad, one dad. No matter how good the dad is, dad is.

[Craig Robinson]

He can't be everything.

[Barack Obama]

He can't be everything. And that boy may need somebody to give the boy some perspective on the dad. One of the most valuable things I learned as a guy was I had a gay professor in college at a time when openly gay folks still weren't out of line, who became one of my favorite professors and was a great guy and would call me out when I started saying stuff that was ignorant. You need that to show empathy and kindness. And by the way, you need that person in your friend group so that if you then have a boy who's gay or non binary or what have you, they have somebody that they can go, okay, I'm not alone in this. Right? So that I think is creating that community. I know it's corny, but that's what they need.

[Craig Robinson]

And we talk a lot about what we had with our mother and father. Right. And you know, a lot of times. But we really did have a big community of people in our lives. I mean that we don't talk a lot about that on this show. We allude to it, but we, Craig and I, we grew up in a huge community of extended aunts and uncles and cousins and all types of male role models, which helped in broadening out and filling in where our mother and father were limited.

[Michelle Obama]

So for, for Emma, I'm picking up a couple of things. Community. Big, huge. Not just a single mom, a single mom and dad or mom and dad, but a broad community. And I can appreciate you using our family as an example, but uncles, but not necessarily blood, adults have to be born. But men who can give a kid or kids some contextualization of who their parents are, right.

[Barack Obama]

And can model, there are a lot of ways to be a responsible, respected, strong Man. And you don't have to be rich, and you don't have to be a.

[Craig Robinson]

Professional athlete, and you don't have to go find it on the Internet among a group of unclear influences. And this is a thing that parents. Emma has to understand. If her sons aren't getting it, they'll.

[Barack Obama]

Look for it somewhere.

[Craig Robinson]

They are gonna look for it because this is. Cause boys need this. Whether they think that they're happy playing video games on their own. And we haven't even talked about how the rise in video games has sort of left kids feeling like, well, this is who I am. I'm alone. Or I'm interacting through a game virtually. Virtually. But I don't have any in real life. Friends. Kids are gonna seek out some kind of community. So big community, I would emphasize, because they need to have other outlets. They have to be able to learn how to be more than just the sport that they care about. And while they get great skills in sports and they learn a whole lot of traits, Teamwork. It isn't music. It's not language. It's not social in certain ways. And so I think we owe it to our boys to be very deliberate about saying, enough with sports, and let's try some other things.

[Barack Obama]

Or at least encouraging them and exposing them to it in a way. Look, sports was scaffolding for me to pull myself into manner. But even as I was doing that, though, my mom was still dragging me to art museums.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

And I was still being taken to Waiting for Godot. I remember my mom took me to a Samuel Beckett play when I was like, 12. And I'm kind of sitting there like.

[Craig Robinson]

What is this about?

[Barack Obama]

But you know what? I kind of got it. After a while, I thought, that's interesting. I mean, it wasn't necessarily the thing I would choose to do, but the fact that I did it meant later when I was 17, 18. All right. There's something there that may be interesting. So sometimes it's just a matter of saying to our boys, you being interested in art, you being interested in theater, that's cool. Boys hearing that.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah, those are good things. So that. And I would tell Emma, you know, don't assume who your son is gonna be based on some male stereotypes. What you think he should be. Really pay attention to who he's showing you. He is.

[Michelle Obama]

This back to school season. Spend less on your kids with Amazon. I remember when my wife, Kelly and I would be running around to a million different stores chasing down spiral notebooks, lunchboxes, and that one specific calculator that somehow every math teacher requires. And look, I love my kids, but I do not love fighting over the last pack of highlighters in a crowded store at 7pm on a Tuesday. That's why I love Amazon. Amazon has everything for back to school. Backpacks, pencils, clothes, snacks, and even those dry erase markers the teachers secretly hoard. All delivered fast right to my doorstep. One click, no stress.

[Barack Obama]

Boom.

[Michelle Obama]

And the best part. I can shop from my couch with my now 15 year old and 13 year old. I grab their school supply list and I'm all set. Now instead of running around town stressed out, I get to actually spend the last days of summer with my kids. We're doing movie nights, bike rides, and even, dare I say back to school fashion shows in the living room. Parents, do yourself a favor. Go to Amazon. Get your back to school checklist done in like five minutes while saving a few bucks. So remember, with Amazon's low back to school prices, just spend less on your kids because every dollar you don't spend on them is a dollar you haven't spent on them. Hey everyone, it's Craig Robinson, co host of the IMO podcast with Michelle Obama. And I wanted to take a minute to talk about my garbage bin. The one in the kitchen. I almost never use it anymore, so I never empty it or smell it. That's because I found out about the mill food recycler. This thing has changed my life. It's about the size and shape of a kitchen bin, but sleek and beautifully designed. And you treat it like a kitchen bin. That is you can add almost any food scraps, even tough stuff like avocado pits or chicken bones. Just drop them in and forget about it. My mill knows how much I add and it works while I sleep. I can keep filling it for weeks and it never smells and it's even easy for the kids to use. Plus it's great for the environment, which everyone in our family cares about. Mill turns all those food scraps into clean, dry, nutrient rich grounds. You can mix them in your garden soil, add them to your curbside compost. Or you can do what we do, use the grounds for our flower garden and planters. But you have to live with the mill to really get it. Good thing. You can try it risk free and get $75 [e-mail] IMO. That's mil.com IMO. So we're giving Emma those two things, the community and the diversity in sports. But I want to go back to a third thing that you brought up early on is we have to help them be self aware of their own internal feelings. Is that how you. Yeah, you're rather than, you know, when we were talking about all the traits that were all external. That's one. I like that one. I like that one for Emma. I like that one for Emma.

[Craig Robinson]

Okay, I'm glad you like that one.

[Barack Obama]

Well, and Michelle's right that I think girls, it comes more organically to them in their social groups. But the way I describe it, and I talked to Malia and Sasha about this, is figuring out how to have a good conversation with yourself and being open and kind to yourself and figuring out, all right, I'm not feeling great here and what's going on and how can I share this and how can I talk about it? I mean, I think that's something you want to teach all kids.

[Craig Robinson]

But that.

[Barack Obama]

Takes time and it takes some practice and encouragement.

[Craig Robinson]

And I would say to Emma and all parents, period, of sons, that it requires some slowing down on the part of the parent. Because that stuff, that's not science, that's art. You can't.

[Barack Obama]

There's no formula.

[Craig Robinson]

You can't schedule that. It's not a formula. You have to create space.

[Barack Obama]

And it's not always efficient.

[Craig Robinson]

And it's not efficient. It will never be efficient. Because kids, they don't open up on time. They're not always gonna have a feeling at dinner time when you're ready. So you have to create enough space, enough downtime throughout the course of a week, a month, you know, to give kids that space to let things unfold, to let them unfold for you. And I think parents of sons have to understand that sons need unfolding in that emotional way as much as their daughters do. There's so much.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah, some of these studies are showing they may need it more, they may need it even more, maybe because they're not getting reinforced in the outside world anywhere else. It does mean, though, that as men, we have to, in whatever conversations we're having with boys, sending the signal that that emotional intelligence, paying attention to how other people are feeling and also paying attention to how you are feeling and being able to describe that and work through those things, that that is a characteristic of being a grown men. There's nothing wrong, it's worthwhile.

[Craig Robinson]

And that means we have to practice that too. And that's also a message for the fathers out there, you know, among many things, of we need more men present. You know, that's something that studies are showing, you know, men are not present in the lives of children and that Has a disproportionate. Is having a disproportionate impact on boys. But men have to do the self work too. Fathers, men general in general. Because if you're of a certain generation, we just saw it here. You guys weren't taught that. You weren't taught how to barak. You read about it, you were unusual in your pursuit of it. Maybe because it's the way you were raised. But a lot of men aren't aware that there are ability to unpack themselves. And the need to do that work is gonna directly impact young boys in the world, period.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah, I think you are absolutely right at the danger of sounding like the policy guy here. I do wanna just go back to something I said earlier. Everything you said is right. And that's work men have to do. I think it's important not to divorce that work from some other stuff like men having jobs.

[Craig Robinson]

I totally agree, Totally agree. It was not an either or at all.

[Barack Obama]

No, I. Exactly. But because part of what happened when we say there aren't a lot of men around. Yes, part of what happened, and it happened in the black community first and now it's trickling. Now you're seeing it happening across the board was a lot of male identity and status was tied up with being a provider, having a job, doing a good job, coming home. And when folks started losing jobs because of deindustrialization and offshoring. And obviously this isn't a political show, so we're not going to go down all the reasons that it happened, but it happened. And so then you had a bunch of men suddenly feeling lost because their identity had been so wrapped up in one thing, that one thing which was being a provider. And so part of what we have to do is, yeah, as men take responsibility for figuring out how to talk about and share feelings and cultivate relationships and friendships. But as a society, we also have to make sure that men don't feel redundant and don't feel as if there's not a place for them. And there are entire communities now where the women are more likely to to be employed than the men are. They have more avenues for supporting their families. And that is something that no matter how much talk you engage in, if guys are feeling left out and not respected, then they're going to act some kind of way and they're also going to pass that on to their sons. And we're making huge generalizations because in every community there are going to be exceptions.

[Michelle Obama]

But before we close this out, I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you, the person who embodies hope, what is it? What do you see as going right for young people? What are you optimistic about this future generation?

[Barack Obama]

I do think that when we look at Malia and Sasha's generation, Avery's generation, we don't yet know what things are going to be like for Austin and Aaron because they're still on the come up. But I do think this idea of men, there are many different ways of being a good, strong, successful, happy man. I think that's something that young people are more open to and recognize. And so that's promising. And we see it when we talk to Malia and Sasha and their friends. I think that what we need to do in order to take advantage of that is to, as a society, as communities, recognize that this kind of transition from the old models that you and I, Craig, grew up on. Just like you said, you took a lot of good stuff from your dad. But then there were some modifications that just had to be made, either because of blind spots, limits, lack of resource, what have you. The times, the times, you know, we joke that talking to Malay and Sasha, sometimes they go out with their friends and, you know, they're in a group and. And the guy's got crocodile arms. You know, it's like not picking up the check, not picking up the check. And it's like, okay, you don't have to pick it up all the time, but if you're never picking it up.

[Michelle Obama]

Right, that's a problem if you're never.

[Barack Obama]

Opening a door or pulling out a chair. Cause that's just common courtesy. That's just being kind for those of you who do not have sons. So, Emma, we are rooting for you because those of us with daughters, we need good men. We've got to have good guys out there. Not necessarily to get married, but to make sure that. What we're learning, I think, is that when we don't think about boys and just assume they're going to be okay because they've been running the world and they've got all the advantages relative to the girls, and all of which has historically been true in all kinds of ways. But precisely because of that, if you're not thinking about what's happening to boys and how are they being raised, then that can actually hurt women. And I would argue that some of the broad political trends we've seen, not just in this country, but around the world, have to do with this sense of boys, men not feeling as if they are seen, feeling as if they count. And that then makes them more interested in appeals by folks who say, you know what? The reason you don't feel respected is because women have been doing this, or this group has been doing this, or this group. That group's been doing this. And that is not a. That's not a healthy place to be. And I will say, as quote, unquote, progressives, Democrats, progressive parents, enlightened ones, we've made that mistake sometimes in terms of our rhetoric, where it's like we're constantly talking about, you know, what's wrong with the boys instead of what's right with them. We rightly have tried to invest in girls to make sure that there's a level playing field, and then they're not barred from opportunities. But we haven't been as willing, I think, to be intentional about investing in the boys. And that's been a mistake. And I think people are starting to recognize that. So going back to your optimism, I think there's a healthier conversation taking place now, both among this new generation of young women and men, but also among the public at large that's starting to see, like, hey, we gotta do better by our boys. And if we do better by our boys and we're producing stronger, more confident men, that's gonna be good for our girls and our women as well.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, thank you, Barack Obama.

[Michelle Obama]

Man, it's been great having you on. Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

And you know what? Since we were talking about communities, my daughters having such a great uncle as a role model. You are the best example of what I was just talking about. The love and learning that they've gotten from you has made all kinds of difference. Just like the relationship they have with Avery, you know, their cousin, you know, having a bunch of boys and men in their family who are not like me, you know, who don't have exactly the same blind spots or biases or weird habits. It's just. It made them better. And you know how much they adore you. But that's a great gift that you've given me.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, thank you. Not just thanks, thanks, thanks, appreciate it. And the same goes to you for our kids, so.

[Barack Obama]

All right.

[Michelle Obama]

We appreciate you.

[Craig Robinson]

All right. These are men. See how they struggle with their emotions they're finding.

[Barack Obama]

I didn't think I was struggling. I thought I was being pretty open.

[Michelle Obama]

I thought he was really good.

[Craig Robinson]

No, you did good. There we go.

[Michelle Obama]

You know what?

[Barack Obama]

I love you, man.

[Michelle Obama]

Love you, too, man. I love you. And I don't know what I do without relate. It's.

[Craig Robinson]

Men love each other.