Live On Your Edge with Dr. Orna Guralnik

Summary

Podcast Summary: IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson

Episode: Live On Your Edge with Dr. Orna Guralnik
Date: October 1, 2025
Host: Higher Ground
Guests: Dr. Orna Guralnik, Nico, Kelly Robinson, Natalie (Caller: Rachel)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the complexities of marriage, relationships, and family communication, with special guest Dr. Orna Guralnik—a renowned clinical psychologist and star of Showtime’s "Couples Therapy." Michelle Obama and her brother Craig Robinson share personal stories, candid reflections, and tackle a listener question about marital boredom. The conversation is honest, humorous, and practical, encouraging listeners to embrace vulnerability, honest dialogue, and self-reflection in their relationships.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Family Communication & Unspoken Marital Challenges

• Opening Stories: Michelle and Craig reminisce about childhood memories and their parents’ one visible argument, highlighting how little their family discussed marital struggles openly.
  • "All those years that you guys were struggling and dealing with stuff, I'd check in with both of you. How's it going? You'd be great. We're fine. And after that, I was like, you're fine means nothing to me." (Michelle, 02:15)
• Michelle shares a revelation from their mother, explaining how she used cleaning (especially during spring) as a ritual to refresh herself and her commitment to marriage, instead of leaving their father:
  • "She said every year, it was almost like she had to renew her faith in her marriage…and it was probably her ritual of kind of shedding all this stuff from the winter, including thoughts of her husband." (Michelle, 06:50)
• Emphasizes the need for honest expectations in marriage, beyond the social media “Instagrammable” vision of love.
  • "People look at our marriage as the ideal. Because in an Instagram world, you see two loving people...always on stage, giving each other a hug after a big speech and making it look easy. And it's not." (Michelle, 08:11)

Normalizing Therapy and Generational Shifts

• Craig discusses his first marriage, the hidden struggles, and how even the concept of therapy was foreign in their parents’ generation.
  • "I don't think I knew a single person who went to individual, let alone couples, counseling." (Michelle, 09:37)
• Dr. Guralnik joins the conversation, highlighting how "Couples Therapy" aims to destigmatize mental health conversations and the unique dynamic of therapy on camera.
  • "In a way, when people come and talk to a therapist, they're always talking to more than just the therapist...they're always talking to a certain kind of hidden camera anyhow. It's not that different." (Dr. Guralnik, 17:25)

Why We Resist Honest Conversations in Relationships

• The group explores why people, especially in romantic partnerships, avoid deep conversations—fear of their own feelings, their partner’s reactions, and societal expectations:
  • "People love staying at the surface. They're afraid of themselves, of what they're gonna find out in themselves. They're afraid of what their partner might say…they just hide all the time from, like, their most personal truth." (Dr. Guralnik, 22:27)
• Michelle observes:
  • "We're not raised or we're not raising our children to do that work, to even understand that work is a part of being human." (Michelle, 23:14)
• Dr. Guralnik says that real relief comes when couples allow themselves to be honest and open, breaking out of “defensive ways of living.” (23:31-24:03)

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Listener Question: Rekindling Marital Romance

Caller: Rachel, 40, mother of three, feels bored and disconnected in marriage after 14 years. Wonders: "How do I rekindle romance and depth without making my husband defensive? Is there a secret to kickstarting the relationship?"

Dr. Guralnik’s Advice:

• Boredom as a Symptom:
  • “Boredom in my mind is...a big symptom of, first of all, a disconnect. A disconnect from some kind of deeper, more real layer of things.” (Dr. Guralnik, 26:28)
• Start With Yourself:
  • "If you're bored and you're looking at your husband, that's already not exactly the right direction. Let's start from that. If you're bored, something is disconnected...Are you not giving yourself enough time to have an inner life?" (Dr. Guralnik, 28:05)
• Motherhood and Guilt:
  • Michelle notes the layers of guilt mothers feel for prioritizing themselves. Dr. Guralnik points to feminist writing that encourages women to honor their experience and complexity. (30:02-30:26)
• Time and Meaningful Experience:
  • Dr. Guralnik urges a practical review of how time is spent—phones, chores, distractions—and the need to create space for meaningful experiences with one’s partner.
    • "Are you arranging your life in a way that meaning can emerge, or are you basically cutting yourself off from anything that could be meaningful?" (Dr. Guralnik, 32:45)

What Counts as an “Experience” in a Relationship?

• Dr. Guralnik:

  • "What counts as an experience is when each of you is willing to come a little bit to your edge, to the thing that matters to you, really, and speak from there, listen from there." (Dr. Guralnik, 40:11)
  • Michelle: "Say that again, that was deep." (40:26)
  • Being at your “edge” means sharing vulnerability, discussing real fears, hopes, or stories—even about mundane topics—rather than focusing on orchestrated romance.

• Presence Over Performance:

  • Experience is not about extravagant gestures but about connection—being truly curious, observant, present, and sometimes silent, with your partner:
    • "You can be at the edge with another person without words. It's being present, it's feeling each other. So much of what transpires between people is actually beyond language." (Dr. Guralnik, 42:45)

• Why is Vulnerability Scary?

  • “When two people are in the presence of each other in some naked form… it is scary. There's a lot of risk, a lot of vulnerability.” (Dr. Guralnik, 44:16)
  • Craig notes that men often fear rejection, which starts young and can carry through adulthood. (44:32)

Comparison and Social Media

• Dr. Guralnik calls out “compare and despair” syndrome, especially for parents surveilling others’ seemingly perfect lives on social media.
  • "If you're just looking at other people in order to feel bad about yourself or to generate envy, it's a complete waste of time. Really. Like an addiction to be gotten rid of." (Dr. Guralnik, 52:20)
• Michelle highlights the crisis of isolation in modern parenthood—families trying to succeed alone, rather than in community.
  • "We now have this crazy notion that we're supposed to be this little unit of a family, parents and children toughing it out together, in some kind of isolation... throughout humanity, that's not how families were structured." (Michelle, 61:19)

Practical Takeaways for Rachel and Similar Listeners

1. Carve Out Space for Yourself First
   • “Carve out some space for yourself where you make sure you’re alive, you’re not bored. Could be like 30 minutes a day...before you’re talking to your husband, before you’re thinking about your husband.” (Dr. Guralnik, 64:12)
2. Bring Curiosity Into Your Relationship
   • “When you’re spending time with your husband…try to bring yourself to a place where you’re really present and really curious. Ask questions that will surprise you.” (Dr. Guralnik, 64:57)
3. Communicate Vulnerabilities
   • Michelle underscores the importance of honest emotional expression, even when it's uncomfortable.
     • “If I could redo a lot of things in my early motherhood time in my marriage, it would be to communicate my feelings to a husband that was actually willing to listen. But you have this fear...so you don't want to share those vulnerable moments.” (Michelle, 65:00)
4. Involve Friends and Community
   • “You need friends, you need family, you need to...carry the intense load of what it means to raise young children.” (Dr. Guralnik, 60:54)
   • “Once I started doing that, I gave myself permission to do other things...It made me feel more alive, less alone, less bored, of course.” (Michelle, 62:38)
5. Therapy is a Tool—Not a Failure
   • “Go to counseling. That's another thing you can do.” (Dr. Guralnik, 66:51)
   • “You're always figuring out yourself, yourself in relationships. And that's what therapy is for. It's to help you see parts of yourself that you can't see on your own.” (Michelle, 67:00)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Michelle Obama on realistic relationships:

  • "Even when it looks good, even when it's great, it's hard. And so I think it's important because…it's very easy to quit on a marriage." (08:22)

• Dr. Orna Guralnik on therapy’s impact:

  • "People know it when they get it. They know they need it…like when people come into therapy and they can suddenly, like, oh, I'm allowed to think about this. I'm allowed to talk about this." (23:32)

• On vulnerability in relationships:

  • "What counts as an experience is when each of you is willing to come a little bit to your edge...the place where you tremble a little bit...and to be able to be there with each other." (Dr. Guralnik, 40:11)

• On comparing to others:

  • "If you're just looking at other people in order to feel bad about yourself or to generate envy, it's a complete waste of time. Really. Like an addiction to be gotten rid of." (Dr. Guralnik, 52:20)

• Listener Takeaway:

  • "Have her husband listen to this episode. Rachel's husband, the message from us to you: Listen, be curious, be on your edge and, you know, make sure she gets to the gym and the spa, dude. Focus on her." (Michelle, 66:19)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:15 – Michelle on family’s past silence about marital difficulties
• 06:50 – Spring cleaning as metaphor for renewing commitment
• 08:11 – Media and the myth of the “perfect” marriage
• 09:37 – Generational attitudes toward therapy
• 17:25 – Dr. Guralnik on therapy and “hidden cameras”
• 22:27 – Why couples avoid tough topics
• 26:28 – Boredom as a marital symptom
• 40:11 – “Being on the edge” in marriage
• 52:20 – The curse of social comparison via social media
• 64:12 – Dr. Guralnik’s closing advice to Rachel

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Final Thoughts

This episode blends humor, wisdom, and actionable insight, demystifying therapy and encouraging emotional honesty. Michelle’s and Craig’s openness, amplified by Dr. Guralnik’s expertise, makes for a vivid, relatable discussion about lasting love, vulnerability, and the power of self-reflection and honest conversation.

Listen, be curious, live on your edge, and remember: “…you're always figuring out yourself, yourself in relationships. And that's what therapy is for.” (Michelle, 67:00)

Transcript

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

What are you thinking about? You know, a penny for your thought. What are you thinking about?

[Michelle Obama]

And then do they. Do you really go there?

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

And then.

[Michelle Obama]

Do you really. Because how many times do somebody asks, what are you thinking about? And you're like, well, let me make up a thing, because I don't want.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

To actually say what I was thinking.

[Michelle Obama]

About, which was like, the way you're chewing makes me want to smack you upside down.

[Nico]

That's why.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

God, that would be a. That would be really interesting. You could, like, open something up there in a big way. Why is.

[Michelle Obama]

You're chewing annoy me so much.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Let's discuss. Right.

[Michelle Obama]

This episode is brought to you by Rivian and Progressive Insurance. Well, hi there. How are you?

[Nico]

I'm terrific.

[Craig Robinson]

How are you?

[Michelle Obama]

I like your blue.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah, I'm wearing blue more.

[Michelle Obama]

You're looking good.

[Nico]

I feel good.

[Craig Robinson]

I feel good.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

That's good.

[Craig Robinson]

So today's show is gonna be a knockout.

[Kelly Robinson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, one of my favorite topics and one of my favorite people.

[Nico]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, talking about marriage, the challenges of marriage and all that good stuff.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. You know, one question is, now that, you know, I'm on my second marriage, people ask me, do we talk about our relationships?

[Kelly Robinson]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

And I tell people all the time now. We do.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. No, that. I mean, when you were on your first marriage, we were very close. We were close with you and your first wife, lived down the street from one another, socialized, did a whole lot together. But then, you know, it was sort of a surprise when it was. When it ended.

[Nico]

Yes.

[Craig Robinson]

And it was a surprise. And let me help the audience understand why it was a surprise, because I was always of the mindset that it was gonna work out. We were gonna figure it out. We'd go to counseling, we'd do this, we'd do all these things, and things would work out. And that if they worked out and you guys knew all the things that were going on, I will have forgiven her. And then you all would still be mad, because I know how you and mom and mom are, so.

[Michelle Obama]

But the thing is, because all those years that you guys were struggling and dealing with stuff, I'd check in with both of you. How's it going? You'd be great. We're fine. And after that, I was like, you're fine means nothing to me.

[Craig Robinson]

It didn't.

[Michelle Obama]

I'm sorry. It's like. So I guess that's the long way of saying no. We actually didn't really fully talk about.

[Craig Robinson]

Our marriages, given all the stuff that we talked about. Too. And continue to talk about. We never talked about our marriages. And. And by me not wanting to talk about mine, made me not ask you about yours because then you'd ask me about mine and then I'd have to tell you what's going on. So.

[Michelle Obama]

And it wasn't good.

[Craig Robinson]

And it wasn't good. It wasn't good. And so it made me think about mom and dad. Right. And I tell people all the time, I remember mom and dad having one argument in front of us, one argument. And I don't know what it was.

[Nico]

About, but I do remember that, dad.

[Craig Robinson]

And we can laugh at this. Now, for those of you out there who didn't know, my dad was disabled and he had crutches and he got mad at my mom and he tried to act like he was gonna get up and leave. And this would've been like one of Those, like a 20 minute thing for him to leave. You can't just walk out when you got crutches. And so he's getting his cap, he put his cap on, and you hear these crutches crumbling around, clanging around. And my mom was like, frasier, I cannot believe.

[Nico]

Are you getting ready to leave? You're just gonna leave in the middle of an argument?

[Craig Robinson]

And I was standing there with my mouth open. Do you remember that?

[Michelle Obama]

I do. And I remember going, dad, we wouldn't let him leave. I mean, I think I was hanging on a leg. We were gonna make it really hard for him to walk out the door, kick a balloon. Because it was sort of like, really, you're walking out the door? Cause you're right, we didn't know what the argument was about. But yeah, he called himself, I'm just.

[Craig Robinson]

Gonna take a walk around the globe.

[Michelle Obama]

We're like, no, we've got you trapped in here. Yeah, we were little. Yeah. Now that you bring it up, that.

[Craig Robinson]

Is how traumatic that was. Because it was the one and only time that they had a fight. So I don't remember them even talking about their relationship with each other.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, I think mom probably shared more with me as I got older. Cause I, you know, I do remember because as I started get. As I became a married woman and I talked to Mom, I shared some of the frustrations and some of the ups and downs. And you know, one thing she divulged to me was she said that for a period when we were in school and she was at home. Cause she was a housewife until I went to high school. She said every spring she would wake up, there'd Be a day she'd wake up and think about leaving Dad. I was like, what?

[Craig Robinson]

How come? I didn't know?

[Michelle Obama]

She never told you that?

[Craig Robinson]

No, of course not. I would have been.

[Michelle Obama]

But she used it as an example of, like, you know. Well, what she would say is, like, you think you have problems, you know, you think you can't deal with it, but if you leave this one, you're just gonna go out in the world and find somebody else, and you. You'll have to deal with their issues. Because her point was, everybody has issues.

[Craig Robinson]

So when she told you this, were you already married?

[Michelle Obama]

Yes. Yes. I was older. She didn't tell me this when I was 8. That would have probably devastated me.

[Craig Robinson]

I was thinking maybe while I was in college and you were in high school.

[Michelle Obama]

No, no. This was after I got married. This was during our conversations. You know, I'd get into the how would you put up with men? And let me tell you what Barack did. And, you know, and she'd always say, you know, no one's perfect. Everybody brings their baggage to the table. And she used that example. She said every year, it was almost like she had to renew her faith in her marriage. And springtime was that time. It was probably, as I think about it, it's like you're sort of trapped in the winter. The dark, long winter of Chicago where nobody's going anywhere. Cause it's just too cold, and then it starts to warm up. And, you know, she always had that spring cleaning ritual, too. She would have gotten the house ready for the new season. And it was probably her ritual of kind of shedding all this stuff from the winter, including thoughts of her husband.

[Nico]

Cleaning him out.

[Michelle Obama]

Cleaning him out. But I think she replaced leaving with cleaning. And she said once she just sort of thought it through, she was like, well, where, you know, do I really want to leave, or do I? Or am I looking for something else?

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

And that I found to be a helpful disclosure. And I think that's an example of the way I think mom and dad tried to talk to us as openly and honestly about what life was, including marriage. So I think that helped me not walk into my marriage with completely unrealistic expectations that this man that I was gonna marry was gonna be my all in everything, forever and ever. Amen. That's just not the way it works. And I'm grateful to mom for being honest. And that's one of the reasons why I try to be honest with the world, with the people who follow me and Barack to our girls, because people look at our marriage as the ideal. Because in an Instagram world, you know, you see two loving people doing a hard thing in the world, you know, always on stage, giving each other a.

[Craig Robinson]

Hug after a big speech and making it look easy.

[Michelle Obama]

And making it look easy. Right, right.

[Craig Robinson]

And it's not.

[Michelle Obama]

And. And a lot of young people could look at that and go, I want a marriage like Michelle and Barack.

[Craig Robinson]

Right.

[Michelle Obama]

And it's like, well, let me. You know, let me talk about what marriage is, you know? Cause it's. Even when it looks good, even when it's great, it's hard. And so I think it's important because, you know, it's very easy to quit on a marriage.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. Yeah. Which, you know, I'm thinking back now, and I probably wouldn't have ever gone to a marriage counselor if I hadn't had trouble in my marriage.

[Michelle Obama]

Did you guys go to counseling in your first marriage?

[Craig Robinson]

Oh, yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

See, I didn't even know that.

[Craig Robinson]

I know. I know.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, my God.

[Craig Robinson]

Because I'm not iconic, and on social media, you don't. Everybody doesn't know my business.

[Michelle Obama]

But after all this time, I never knew that you guys actually.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, that's because what you've done.

[Michelle Obama]

Okay.

[Craig Robinson]

But we tried some counseling, and, you know, counseling only works as well as the people who are giving out the information. Well, I shouldn't say that. We'll have Dr. Orna come on and tell us the real scoop. But, you know, the way I looked at it is I'm gonna be completely open. You be completely open, and maybe we can work on that. But I didn't even know that there was an industry of therapy counseling.

[Kelly Robinson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

That wasn't anything that our parents generation.

[Nico]

No way.

[Michelle Obama]

I don't think I knew a single person who went to individual, let alone couples, counseling.

[Craig Robinson]

And the closest thing was the counselor at school for the kids who had mental issues. You only thought about therapy if you had some kind of mental issue, Especially in the black community. Right. People either went to their pastor. Their pastor, or they went to the barbershop and talked to the rest of the fellas. And that was the extent of dad giving me some advice. Right. We'd go to the barbershop and listen to stuff, and then we'd talk about it in the car. And then as I got older and in college and I would talk about girls, he was still of the mindset, don't settle down. Make sure you wear protection, and attaboy.

[Natalie (Caller)]

Yeah.

[Nico]

You know.

[Michelle Obama]

Did he ever give you. Did dad ever give you any advice when you first Got married.

[Craig Robinson]

So remember, dad had died early.

[Michelle Obama]

Janice.

[Craig Robinson]

He knew Janice.

[Michelle Obama]

He knew Janice. And he knew.

[Craig Robinson]

But it was before we were having issues, so. So at that point, the advice went from the sort of atta boy, protect yourself to there's a lot of temptations out here and you can possibly feel like you're getting bored in your relationship. Don't.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, right. Don't do that.

[Craig Robinson]

Don't do that.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Don't do that.

[Craig Robinson]

The deep advice that you get, the.

[Michelle Obama]

Therapy that was supposed to carry you through.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. But, you know, dad had his way of talking about things and using humor and using the example of his friends and family who made bad decisions.

[Kelly Robinson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, there were wonderful examples of what not to do.

[Craig Robinson]

Plenty.

[Michelle Obama]

But there weren't a lot of. There weren't a lot of really guiding.

[Craig Robinson]

Principles of what to do. And speaking of that, let's have our expert come in.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, yeah, I guess we should get some real help.

[Craig Robinson]

Now, this is an introduction that I have to read because this is powerful here. Dr. Orna Goralnik is a clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst. She is on the faculty of NYU Postdoctoral Program in Psychoanalysis and writes and teaches on the intersection of politics, dissociation and psychoanalysis. She is on the editorial board of directors, Psychoanalytic Dialogues and Studies in Gender and Sexuality. That's a mouthful right there.

[Michelle Obama]

But you did it.

[Craig Robinson]

She is the therapist on the Showtime documentary series Couples Therapy.

[Michelle Obama]

One of my favorite shows.

[Craig Robinson]

One of my sister's favorite shows. Now one of Kelly and I's favorite shows. Because this is one of those shows that we just didn't watch. Cause we still have kids at home, but we went back and watched.

[Michelle Obama]

Excellent.

[Craig Robinson]

And now we are fans as well. Dr. Ora, come join us. Come join us, please.

[Michelle Obama]

And we have Nico here, too. How are you? It's so good to have you here. Thank you.

[Nico]

It's so welcome.

[Michelle Obama]

Welcome.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Nico, I've been listening to your conversation.

[Michelle Obama]

It's like, let's get a pro here. I know, Nico. It's like we're now we're. Now we're getting to work. What you're used to.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Well, welcome. She did keep coming over when something intense was coming up.

[Michelle Obama]

Can she feel it?

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

She feels it.

[Kelly Robinson]

Yeah. Wow.

[Nico]

Really?

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

See, I was paying attention to my sister. I didn't even notice.

[Michelle Obama]

I kept coming over when she's, you know, it's like doing her job. She's doing her job well. Welcome. Welcome to our table. Our conversation. My big brother and one of my favorite people in the world. I admire this woman. Deeply. I really do. I love the work that you do and the way that you do it, but welcome.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Thank you.

[Craig Robinson]

I have so many questions.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Let's go.

[Craig Robinson]

This segment is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, a brand who believes that everyone should have the access and opportunity to own a home.

[Nico]

What are some of the firsts that.

[Craig Robinson]

We were able to accomplish in our family?

[Michelle Obama]

What were some of our firsts? Well, I was probably the first first lady in our family. You were the first person to get drafted by the NBA.

[Nico]

Yes, I sure was.

[Craig Robinson]

And the first to actually play professionally overseas.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Right.

[Michelle Obama]

We were the first in our family to graduate from Ivy League schools. You were the first person in our family to live abroad.

[Craig Robinson]

Ooh, that's a good one. That's a good one.

[Michelle Obama]

We are the first people in our family to have our own amazing brother sister podcast.

[Craig Robinson]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

And that has been an amazing first.

[Craig Robinson]

That's been a really fun first. That's been a really fun first. And it feels like it's a first that the whole family can celebrate because, you know, every. Everyone is giving us ideas and opinions.

[Michelle Obama]

Yes.

[Craig Robinson]

And it has been really fun spending time hanging out together. And, you know, it feels like we haven't been together in a long time, and we've just been apart for about a couple of months, which was no time. That was nothing in the past.

[Michelle Obama]

And the thing about being the first is that sometimes it can be a little scary, like starting this podcast, even though we're having a lot of fun now. We've never done this before, and there was a little trepidation about, how is it going to work? Are people going to enjoy it? Are we going to have enough to say week after week, can we get guests? Can we get guests? Will anybody come and talk to us? So the first come with a lot of fear, but a lot of excitement and a lot of reward. So we recommend being the first.

[Nico]

And for a lot of folks, that.

[Craig Robinson]

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[Nico]

So I just.

[Craig Robinson]

I'm trying to. I mean, first of all, I told my sister this when we started watching it. Finding people to come on the show and be so open in front of cameras. I don't know if I could do that. Can you talk about that?

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Sure. Yeah. You know, when we started doing the show, we all had a question of whether people could do this, whether you could really do therapy on camera. You know, the basic idea of therapy is typically, like, full confidentiality. Like, I never talk about my patients with anyone. It's like. It's a very different way of framing therapy. So. So it was kind of a wild jump to try to do this. But, you know, over time, what I realized is that, you know, in a way, when people come and talk to a therapist, they're always talking to more than just the therapist. They're talking to some kind of internal audience that they have, like a family member that never listened to them or the world. Like, wait a minute. There's something that didn't happen right. In my life, and I need the world to know this, and I need to tell my story. So when they talk to a therapist, in a way, they're always talking to a certain kind of hidden camera anyhow. It's not that different.

[Craig Robinson]

Wow.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

You know, they're trying to tell their story and get it right.

[Michelle Obama]

What led you to couples therapy? I mean, what's the advantage of working with a couple versus working with an individual? Or is there and advantage?

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Yeah. Well, first of all, when people are in therapy, most of what they talk about is their relationships. Right. And what you want to do in individual therapy is you want to get into, like, the very personal story, how a person sees their world, how they see the relationship. But you're always missing the other side, Right. You're always missing, well, what's another perspective on this?

[Michelle Obama]

People only know what they know about themselves, and that's all they can share.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Exactly. So I'm often curious, like, if I had the spouse in the room, what would they say? And if I had the mother in the room, what would she say? And that's what got me kind of interested in couples work. So I actually recruited the person who's my advisor on the show. Virginia.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, yes.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Years ago. I hired her, and I said, take, teach me the art of couples therapy.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, wow.

[Kelly Robinson]

Wow.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

And just tried it out, and it was amazing. It was just A really powerful way of working.

[Kelly Robinson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

I think you've done taken huge steps to expose people to what therapy is and to demystify it. And I think that the way it's done, the quality of the production and the way you approach the work, because we've had Barack and I, we've done. I've done individual therapy, we've done couples therapy. There's just a way to, as I was saying in our earlier conversation, to, you know, bring our marriage down to reality for people, you know, and to let people know that even in the best marriages, getting help, having periods where you need support, you need to think things through is a normal part of. Of making it through.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

And it's such a. It's an amazing thing that you're doing by actually speaking about it. I was listening to your conversation earlier and, like, just breaking through all these, like, fantasies and illusions that people have about marriage and about relationships, trying to get, like, real and open people up both to their own inhibitions and struggles, and then to be able to talk about it with each other. I mean, it's like. It's incredible what you're doing, and from the place that you are.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, it can be a little scary because you don't want to jinx your own relationship or you don't want to feel like. Because you say a little bit, that you have to say everything Right. But I do think that we don't talk enough with young people about what marriage is, what building real relationships are. We spend way more time on the wedding and the dress picking and the, you know, the wish board and all of that. And I see that even now, even as therapy has become more of the norm in our society, I see too many young people who haven't really thought through their. Why they haven't asked real questions. They're so busy rushing to the ceremony, and that's all we focus on is the day, and then they're not prepared for the next or the next 50 years. And that's one of the reasons why I like talking openly, because I think young people give up. They give up too soon.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. And Dr. Orna, why do you think that is? Is it because we didn't have modeling with our parents, or is there a fear of actually finding out what your partner thinks of you?

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Oh, there are many reasons why people don't talk about what's going on. There's so many fears of addressing. I mean, people love staying at the surface of things. They're afraid of themselves, of what they're gonna find out in themselves. They're afraid of what their partner might say to them. They're afraid of the world, what the world will think. There are many ways that people just hide all the time from, like, their most personal truth and the other person's truth and the way people are raised. And then we have the extra layer now of social media and, like, all the Disneyfication that happens around that, that people don't know how to make contact with their true self.

[Michelle Obama]

And we're not even trying. That's not, like, a personal goal. We don't. We're not. We're not raising. We're not raised or we're not raising our children to do that work, to even understand that that work is a.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Part of being human.

[Michelle Obama]

Being human.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Yeah.

[Kelly Robinson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

But I think that's why the show worked so well, and we were surprised by how successful it was. But I think that's what people really need, and they know it when they feel it. Like when people come into therapy and they can suddenly, like, oh, I'm allowed to think about this. I'm allowed to talk about this. I can talk to my partner about this. It's such a relief. It's such a. Oh, this. This is what life is. Instead of this defensive way that I've been living. People know it when they get it. They know they need it.

[Nico]

Well, we.

[Craig Robinson]

Typically have a question from a caller or a viewer, and I think now's a great time to get our question in and answer our question. So, Natalie.

[Natalie (Caller)]

You got it. Hi, Michelle and Craig. I'm Rachel. I'm 40 years old and a mom of three. Lately, I've been feeling fairly bored in my marriage. It's like every day is kind of a repeat of the last. We wake up, do school, drop off work, run errands, and then it's the same weekend routine. Even if my husband and I manage to carve out time for a rare date night, it still feels like we're just going through the motions. Last week, for example, we went out to dinner, but it turned into a quick meal where we talked mostly about the kids and then listened to each other's work complaints. It feels like we're roommates, not romantic partners. Meanwhile, I find myself getting increasingly jealous of this close friend of mine who has two kids and whose relationship seems pretty vibrant and fulfilling. She often shares stories about how attentive her husband is, and I don't mean just emotionally. I know I shouldn't, but I can't help comparing our lives. And I'm realizing it's starting to make me unhappy. I do love my husband and I feel lucky for the life we've built together. But I am craving more depth and excitement in our relationship. I'm willing to put in the work. I just don't know exactly where to start or how to talk with him without him becoming defensive or scaring him. Do we book a big vacation together? Do we try and write romantic notes to each other? I know that sounds silly, but I'm open. What's the secret to kickstarting a romance with a husband of 14 years?

[Michelle Obama]

Rachel, I think that's a great question.

[Craig Robinson]

It really is. It really is. And there's so many different parts. So as the only husband at the.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Table, what do you say?

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, Really?

[Craig Robinson]

I want to help Rachel be able to talk productively to her husband about her issues. How can we help Rachel talk a little bit more productively about this to the person that she should be feeling like she has her closest relationship with?

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Yeah. Oh, my God. There's so much in this question.

[Kelly Robinson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

So much. First of all, I have to say that the question of boredom. Boredom in my mind is. I mean, when patients talk to me about boredom, to me, it's like a big symptom of, first of all, a disconnect. A disconnect from some kind of deeper, more real layer of things. It's not. I mean, there's nothing to be bored about ever in life.

[Michelle Obama]

Especially if you have a two and a three year old or however old Rachel's kids were.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Exactly. I mean, just think about, like, when you go to sleep at night and what our mind creates every night in terms of dreams. We are full of interesting, interesting experiences all the time. I mean, look outside at nature. I mean, you can just stare at a flower and it's like the world.

[Michelle Obama]

Is fascinating, but we're not. We don't think like that, Especially in this day and age. I mean, that's the first word out of a kid's mouth is, I'm bored. And just the way you put it, it's like, how could you?

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

How can you be bored? Yeah, there's nothing to be bored of. I mean, if you just. I mean, if you're a mother and you're watching your children every moment that you look at them, it's like unbelievable. What's happening.

[Kelly Robinson]

Yes.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

And what's happening inside of you when you're with your children, all the different emotions, the fears, the memories that it brings up for you, I mean, there's nothing to be bored about ever. So if you're Bored. Something is disconnected. So that's already something for me as a therapist to think about, work with.

[Michelle Obama]

And is it something within Rachel to thank you.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Okay, so I start with what's going on with each person. Like, what are you disconnected from in yourself? That, first of all, you're looking to your husband to fulfill before checking in with yourself. If you're bored and you're looking at your husband, that's already not exactly the right direction to be looking at. There's nothing to be bored. Let's start from that. If you're bored, something is disconnected. So we can deal with that aspect of things, like what's happening inside you that you're bored with, that you're. Are you not giving yourself enough time to have an inner life? Are you running, running, running and having three kids? And she's 40, so the kids are young. I mean, it's gonna be. This is a phase of life where this is not, like, fun and games. I mean, this is intense. Like, you're at the level of, like, are you getting any sleep? Is there money around? Like, are you. You're at the level of the body. It's. It's very hard to carve out space to have an inner life during that period. So what are you expecting? I mean, this is a period where you're giving out a lot. How are you dealing with that? Are you giving yourself the space to really have an experience? When you're with your kid, do you have the moment to actually notice the wonder that's in front of you, the wonder that's inside of you? Like, can you take 10 minutes in the morning before everyone wakes up and just sit with yourself, Jot down a few thoughts, a few feelings, even meditate for a few minutes. Just create an inner space so that you can notice the wonder around you and inside you. Not only the wonder, the intense anxieties, everything. Like, have an inner life before you're turning to your marriage and your husband to kind of supply you with something.

[Michelle Obama]

And don't mothers in particular feel guilty about everything? Yeah, about everything. Let alone taking the time out to focus on an inner life. How do you even help, especially a new mother, dealing with all kinds of guilt, to even think differently about that investment in self?

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Yeah, there's been quite a lot of recent, more feminist literature that's trying to help women think through that. Think through the intense experience as a woman is going through as a mother and a young mother. There's so much there, and there's so much. I mean, talking earlier about all These Disney ideas, so many ways in which mothers are prevented from really noticing what they're going through. Because you're supposed to be this, that, and the other. You're supposed to be perfect in this way and perfect in that way. And anyway, all these different ways contradict each other, so there's no way to be perfect. And then you got your mother over your shoulder. So there's a lot out there now in terms of feminist writing that helps women think through their experience and honor the complexity of their experience as mothers. All of this is like, inner work before you even turn to your marriage. But then let's talk about the marriage. The marriage similar to the way you can't. You know, you can't show up for your kid and say, okay, I have 10 minutes now. I'm gonna be a perfect mother now for 10 minutes. Are you ready for me?

[Kelly Robinson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

And the kid's like, who are you? Yeah, Right? So similarly for a marriage, I mean, you have to connect between two people. The connection between two people requires a certain amount of attention or space, a certain kind of space. You can't just show up for dinner and just like, okay, we have an hour. Let's have a really meaningful experience, and then we're back home. So what does that mean? First of all, how do people spend their time? I mean, it's really interesting when you do, like, a detailed analysis. I do it with myself every day and fail. But when you do a detailed analysis of how you're spending your time, a lot of it is spent on basically crap, right? For me, like, my vice is the news. But for other people, it might be, I don't know, doom. Scrolling through Instagram or Real Housewives shopping, Bad tv, ocd. Like cleaning. Cleaning, just to empty your mind.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, and our endless phones.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Endless phones. So how are you spending your time? Are you. Are you arranging your life in a way that meaning can emerge, or are you basically cutting yourself off from anything that could be meaningful? And, I mean, that's the problem we're all stuck in nowadays, especially with these, like, phones and then between. So the couple needs to understand how they're spending their time. How are they creating conditions where they can have an experience with each other?

[Michelle Obama]

And by experience, because that sounds like that could sound overwhelming. Cause you say experience, and does that mean we have to go skydiving and does it have to look a certain way? Because, again, in the ideal world, you're walking hand in hand through some magical date. You know, like date nights become a thing, right? So the experience feels like it needs to be big. And especially as women, we think that attention has to look like flowers and Prince Charming coming in. But what what counts as an experience.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

An experience.

[Nico]

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[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

What counts as an experience is when each of you is willing to come a little bit to your edge, to the thing that matters to you, really, and speak from there, listen to each other from there.

[Michelle Obama]

Because say that again. That was deep. All right.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

It's for each of you to bring yourself to the edge of your experience, to the thing that really matters to you, the place where you tremble a little bit, where you're a little not sure about what your mind is going to bring, how you feel about things, the thing that really matters to you, the place where you tremble. And to be able to be there with each other. And ask your partner, it could be about anything. Like you could talk about, I don't know. I mean, I think she talked about like the boredom of talking about work every day. You could talk to someone about or talk about the kids. But everything you talk about, you can get to your edge and to that thing that really, again, made you tremble and speak from there and listen from there. Ask your partner, like, okay, so that thing happened with your boss, but what did you really think? Or what were you really feeling in that moment? And what fears and hopes did it bring up for you in that moment? And what did it remind you of from when you were, I don't know, 12? What did your dad do in that situation? There's so many places you can go.

[Michelle Obama]

Everything Jimmy, Barack and I are even, we're in these conversations about what are the experiences that we have with each other, you know, that build connection between us. Right. Because we are very different people with very different habits, very different needs. And we're constantly, throughout our marriage trying to bridge that gap. So this is fascinating to me, but a lot of people talk in terms of love language because all of this experience, being at the edge, sharing this stuff that sounds like, well, your love language is talk, you know, and if talk isn't his love language, like he doesn't want to go to the edge of anything, you know, because he just wants you to hold him. That's the experience he wants. Or he wants you to just leave him alone. That's the experience he wants with his wife.

[Craig Robinson]

His love language is solitude.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Well, that's interesting, too. That could be interesting, too. You can ask for plenty about that.

[Natalie (Caller)]

But.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

But you know what? It's true That I rely a lot on language. But you can be at the edge with another person without words. How you. It's. It's being present, it's feeling each other. There's so many ways that people communicate that they send. I mean, so much of what transpires between people is actually beyond language.

[Kelly Robinson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

I mean, you know, we're sitting here together. There's body language, there's facial expression, there's the smell and sound of things. There's. I mean, that's why zoom, for example, is so reduced in terms of like a therapy encounter.

[Kelly Robinson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

There are many ways that we can be on the edge of things with each other that are not only in words. It helps when there's a connection between the experience of the body and the words, when it all kind of works together. But you can listen to music together and like, have like a really intense experience with no words. You can, I don't know, watch an amazing movie together and you're having a profound experience. It's not only words. It's about bringing yourself to a place of vulnerability where you don't know. You don't know what your partner's gonna say, what they're gonna do, and you don't know what's gonna come out from within you. And you're touching each other in one way or another by being on that edge. So it could be physically, sexually. There's many ways.

[Michelle Obama]

Why are we so scared of that naturally? Is it just straight up scary?

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

It is scary, yeah. Yeah, it is. I mean, when two people are in. Are in the presence of each other in some naked form, I don't only mean naked body, but naked mentally, it is scary. There's a lot of risk, a lot.

[Craig Robinson]

Of vulnerability, and I'll jump in here. You know, from the time young men are developing, we have been the ones who had to ask girls to dance. And you know what we're afraid of?

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Rejection. Rejection. Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

So scary. And so then you just keep adding that on until you get to be 60 years old and you're still afraid of rejection. Because I'm listening to you, Dr. Orna, and it's just fantastic. And Kelly and I, my wife, we still have young kids, so we have a 14 year old and a 12 year old. But we don't just talk about the kids. We talk about a lot of different things. And now I'm trying to see how can I get my. When am I on the edge?

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, maybe you're not on the edge.

[Nico]

And it's not superficial because I've never.

[Craig Robinson]

I don't feel like, oh, I'm too scared to bring up anything. You know, I'm not scared to bring up anything.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Although you said you started by talking about rejection. Right.

[Craig Robinson]

So I'm trying to, I'm, I'm trying to see how I'm breaking down from being rejected. Stay out of this.

[Nico]

From being, from being rejected.

[Craig Robinson]

Am I not getting to the, to the meat of the matter?

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

You can, I'm, I promise you, you can always push yourself further.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah, that's what I'm hearing. It's, you know, you're like an athlete. You can always go and do more. And maybe we're just right at the.

[Michelle Obama]

Surface here because the thing about. Because you're still in kid mode. Barack and I are empty nesters. Right. So the funny thing is it's like we now we don't have the kids. I mean, we always have the kids to talk about. Right?

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Right.

[Michelle Obama]

But not on a day to day basis. They live in other, another state, another city. They're living their lives and we've noticed how much of our time we spent talking about them. Right?

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

So now that we're empty nesters, it's like, well, what are we gonna talk about? So we're together all day and we do this thing where it's like, I'll see him. And it's like, what you been doing? It's like, oh, don't tell me until dinner because we gotta have something to talk about at dinner. So if all throughout the course of the day I'm getting caught up on his stuff, then it's like we're sitting staring at each other.

[Craig Robinson]

We should always think something about.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

First of all, that's not true. Yeah, yeah, that's not true.

[Michelle Obama]

It's not true.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

You're wrong.

[Craig Robinson]

I'm just getting her back for buttoning discussion.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

No, there's, first of all, there's, there's. I mean, this is a little radical what I'm saying, but there's a way to be next to another person, even in silence, that can be very alive. Right. Like, you know, people sit and meditate next to each other. There's a way that you could be together that is very alive to me. It's a question of like, again, are you sitting there from. In a place that you know what matters to you in that moment? And are you curious about your partner's edge or where they're at? Like, what are you thinking about? You know, a penny for your thought. Like, what are you thinking about?

[Michelle Obama]

And then do they, do you really.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Go there and then.

[Michelle Obama]

Do you really? Because how many times do somebody asks, what are you thinking about? And you're like, well, let me make up a thing, because I don't want.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

To actually say what I was thinking.

[Michelle Obama]

About, which was like, the way you're chewing makes me want to smack you upside the head.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

That's why I got to be an edge. That would be an edge, and that would be really interesting. You could, like, open something up there in a big way.

[Michelle Obama]

Why is you're chewing annoy me so much?

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Right.

[Michelle Obama]

Let's discuss.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Right.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. I don't know if I'd bring that up, but that's an edge. That's an example of an edge.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

That's an example of an edge. And it actually, symbolically, it's a great example because chewing is hearing another person chewing is. You're hearing the essence of who they are, their otherness, their bodily functions.

[Michelle Obama]

It is like that.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

It's like.

[Craig Robinson]

It's not like that at all.

[Michelle Obama]

No, no.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Because the girls and I know that's a thing.

[Michelle Obama]

I didn't realize that. That's good to know because the girls and I are very irritated with the way Barack chews.

[Craig Robinson]

Oh, my.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Well, that's. Chewing is the essence. Like, you hear the otherness of a person, right? You hear, they have a body, they have saliva. They're like you.

[Michelle Obama]

It's like. But why they annoy us. Should we. Is that a statement of something deeper?

[Craig Robinson]

And if it doesn't annoy you, is that a statement of something deeper?

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

No.

[Nico]

That's not fair.

[Michelle Obama]

Wrong again, Craig Robinson.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Sorry.

[Michelle Obama]

You got one more strike and then you'll have to leave the table.

[Nico]

You guys could be sitting here crunching on cereal.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

I'm sure we can find other ways in which we can dig in there.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, but we digress, though. But it's. It's fascinating that that's even that edginess.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Yeah. I like this. You know that poet, Keats, that has the idea of, like, negative capability, like, emptying yourself in a way and really opening yourself up to be curious to another person. Not listening so that you can talk, but listening so you can really hear another person. Like, what matters to them. Well, that's endless.

[Kelly Robinson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

And that's an interesting thing. I don't wanna genderize this. Right. And there are a lot of people who are not curious. They're not, you know, open. They have a way of dialogue that is, I'm gonna relay information to you, and then I'm gonna move on or I'm gonna solve a problem. Or I'm gonna. There isn't a curiosity. We aren't taught that. And I wonder whether that's some of what Rachel might be experiencing or might want to consider in her marriage.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

But as a yes. I think many people are not taught to look for that in themselves and speak in that way to other people. But you can cultivate that.

[Kelly Robinson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

I mean, that's what I do as an analyst. I sit next to people and I turn my curiosity towards them, and I create an environment that invites them to look inside and talk to me. And you can do that. You can do that with your husband, even if he doesn't know how to talk. There was. In the last series that we did, there was this wonderful Chinese American man, Rex.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, I remember him.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Do you remember Rex?

[Kelly Robinson]

Who?

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

I don't think, growing up, I don't think anyone ever asked him a question.

[Michelle Obama]

That's right.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Ever.

[Kelly Robinson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

And he had no clue what was going on inside him. No clue. And their conversations in the beginning were like dead ends. But you just sit there for a few minutes and ask him a question, and suddenly the whole world would open up and he'd be shocked by what's coming out of his mouth. Just give the person a chance.

[Michelle Obama]

Ask, ask.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Invite.

[Kelly Robinson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

Okay. I'm just jotting down some notes, and.

[Michelle Obama]

To Rachel's point of looking externally and the. Comparing the. I mean, comparing. I know we haven't begun to scratch the surface of so many other things, but I know she. She's in that comparative mode which so many of us are in this day and age.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Instagram. Yeah. Compare and despair. I think if you want to look at other people for something useful, rather than compare and despair, you can look at other people and get inspired. Just like you were saying earlier, talk to people in order to learn something. If you have friends, a couple who are doing something well, you can learn from them. You can ask them about it and learn from them. If you're just looking at other people in order to feel bad about yourself or to generate envy, it's a complete waste of time. Really. Really. Like an addiction to be gotten rid of.

[Kelly Robinson]

Yeah.

[Nico]

It seems.

[Craig Robinson]

And maybe it's just technology that I don't remember folks trying to be like the Joneses as much as I do today.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

I agree. I agree. There's some. I mean, there's something about the younger generations. They live a very different life than ours. You know, I don't want to be like one of those, like, older people that's like, oh, the younger generations, they got it all wrong. It's different the way they're living. Definitely. The world on social media calls on people to perform their lives. Compare more than we did did you.

[Nico]

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[Craig Robinson]

There's a saying in basketball that my assistant coaches used to always say to me, you never know what's going on in the other guy's huddle. And whenever I was worried about the other team doing this or having better players than this, he's like, stop worrying about the other guy's huddle. They're yelling at each other over there. We can win this game. It's the same thing in relationships. But I wanna turn back to. Rachel talked about, is there something I can do to kickstart our relationship? And that sounds like that could be good or bad, but is there a switch? Is there something that she can do? Is there something you can tell her that she can do while she's working on this other stuff?

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

You know, I'm a psychoanalyst, so I don't believe in, like, quick fixes and tricks.

[Michelle Obama]

Seven steps to feeling more connected.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

No, I don't have them. Yeah, but I think what we're talking about is, like, this inner orientation, both towards, like, every minute you can bring yourself to a place where you're taking more risks, and you can ask your partner to do that. I actually liked what she said about, like, writing notes. Writing notes to each other. It doesn't have to be love notes, but sometimes when people write, they have to go deeper inside themselves to generate something. So maybe communicating through writing as a way of. In a way, announcing to each other. We're trying to speak from a more interesting place to each other. That could be interesting. Read poetry. Read poetry to each other. Poetry is like a very direct line to, like, when I feel like I'm losing something in myself. There are certain poets that I turn to and I pull up and gets me right there. Listen to music. I mean, things that get you there, that get you to a place where you're alive. I wanted to ask you guys earlier, like, what makes you feel alive? What makes you feel like you're present?

[Michelle Obama]

In the life I live, which is so abnormal now, it's really. It's like being outside, you know, I mean, we've. I say this a lot. Something that comes with fame that people don't. That they don't appreciate, they're not cautious of, is the loss of anonymity. Like, it's hard for Barack and I to just be in the world unobserved and as a couple. So much of your interaction just happens because you two are experiencing the world together, sitting in a park and watching life go by. You know, stopping at a cafe and getting a cup of coffee, and then the conversation turns to. The conversation next to.

[Kelly Robinson]

To you.

[Michelle Obama]

Right. We're always the conversation next to the people we're sitting. Right. So you find yourself not looking out at the world. So for me, aliveness these days comes from those kind of experiences. It's just taking a walk, you know, breathing fresh air, hearing the sound of the ocean and being completely unnoticed and just being able to experience the world in that way, which is. I would have never thought that that would be.

[Craig Robinson]

And conversely, that's what we have fun doing. Like, we can go for a walk and we can experience autumn and the trees turning. And our discussions range from the kids to work to family to politics. And that's how we generate our joy, is doing family things.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

That reminds me of something else with Rachel and the focus on the husband, and you mentioned it earlier, that your spouse can't be everything. I mean, especially at that phase of life, you need friends, you need family, you need to kind of. You need more people in your life to carry the intense load of what it means to raise young children.

[Michelle Obama]

And I've seen we now have this crazy notion that we're supposed to be this little unit of a family, parents and children toughing it out together, you know, in some kind of isolation, when, in fact, throughout humanity. That's not how families were structured.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Absolutely.

[Michelle Obama]

There was an extended family. There was always a big community. There were always others. Cousins, aunts, uncles, neighbors, friends. And some of what Rachel might be experiencing is what typically happens in young families, they're trying to do it all alone, all by themselves. And that's a piece of advice that I give when I'm out and about. What got me through as a young mother was, you know, there came a point in that mother, the mother, father relationship when I felt like my husband had all this free time, that he was going to the gym, and, you know, he was still prioritizing his life. And I was just stewing about it. And I realized I can go to the gym too, right now, but I have to organize it, make it happen. That was sort of the kickstart to me to stop looking to him for what I needed.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

And once I started doing that, I gave myself permission to do other things, like go out with my girlfriends or have my friends over or build a strong community of other mothers. It made me feel more alive, of course, less alone, less bored, of course. But it was almost like I had to give myself permission because you were just. You thought that being a parent meant you spent every waking moment with. Alone with your child, by yourself.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

And if Rachel's trying to follow that, she's not bored. She's probably mad.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Yeah, right, right.

[Michelle Obama]

She's probably very angry.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Yeah, yeah. That is. It's. What you're describing is a very common phase that women go through and men are somehow freer from that. They somehow know better how to take care of themselves.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, let's start there. That's what they focus on, taking care of themselves.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Which is important.

[Michelle Obama]

It is good. It's important, you know, we criticize it.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

I think we're envious of it.

[Michelle Obama]

Yes, we're envious of it. We should learn to emulate it. This sort of sheer laser focus on one's self.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, this is a great time to give Rachel two or three tidbits to walk away with. If you had two or three things that we could give Rachel that she could come away with from this episode.

[Nico]

What would it be?

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Okay, so I'm actually going to start with what you said, Michelle, which is like, how about you carve out some space for yourself where you make sure you're alive, you're not bored. Could be like 30 minutes a day. And figure out what. What brings you there? What brings you to a place where you feel alive and content in yourself before you're talking to your husband, before you're thinking about your husband, number one. Number two, when you're spending time with your husband, how about you get. You try to bring yourself to a place where you're really present and really curious. Ask questions.

[Craig Robinson]

Oh, that's good.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Ask questions that will surprise you.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, I love that. You know, if I could redo a lot of things in my early motherhood time in my marriage, it would be to communicate my feelings to a husband that was actually willing to listen. But you have this fear of, like, well, if I'm complaining, if I'm not doing it all, then maybe I'm failing. Maybe I look weak. Maybe I don't look like I can handle it. And that's all you wanna be as a mother, is somebody who appears to be handling it all. So you don't wanna share those vulnerable moments, those moments of doubt, those moments of loneliness because you might be accused of not being a good mother.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Absolutely.

[Craig Robinson]

And I would add, as a husband and a father, if you were to open up and say to me, I'm worried that I'm failing, or I'm worried that I'm not doing it. Right. I don't have any empirical data, but most husbands would be sympathetic and be helpful. Yeah, but the reason why I think you don't do it is because you're worried about him being negative. And it's. Boy, I'd like to hope that it's unlikely.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, then we can just tell Rachel to have her husband listen to this episode. Rachel's husband.

[Craig Robinson]

And it gets back to the husband.

[Michelle Obama]

Rachel, Rachel's husband. The message from us to you. Listen, be curious, be on your edge and, you know, make sure she gets to the gym and the spa. Dude.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Focus on her. If you're not doing that. Rachel's husband.

[Craig Robinson]

Right.

[Michelle Obama]

You think?

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. And Rachel's husband should know that his wife's feeling bored. But she's going to work on it.

[Kelly Robinson]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

And if you're feeling bored, you have to work on it.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Absolutely.

[Michelle Obama]

And go to counseling.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

That's another thing you can do.

[Michelle Obama]

I think that that's also a piece of it.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Carve out that time.

[Michelle Obama]

Right. It's okay. I think, you know, you may find that in 10 years you may need another checkup. And I'm finding that because we're, you know, I'm doing therapy now because I'm 60 and at the end I'm an empty nester. I'm at a different phase in my life. I'm trying to figure out who am I now, you know, now that I can make, all the choices that I make are mine. And now how do I give myself permission? How do I deal with the new level of boredom and the newness. So it never ends, you know, Never ends. You're always figuring out yourself, yourself in relationships. And that's what therapy is for. It's to help you see parts of yourself that you can't see on your own. You know, you'd never try to fix the back of your hair without a mirror. You know, you can't see behind your back. And wonderful therapy, but you also have to find good one like Orna, and they're out there. And if you can't find Orna, watch Couples Therapy. Because the beauty of that show is that you sometimes you see. Often you see yourself in the couples that you selected. And then you get Orna's therapy. I highly recommend it. It's. It is truly one of my favorite shows. It really makes me think deeply about myself and about my relationship. And it could be a good kickstart to couples out there who don't know what couples therapy is, but, you know, can gain some insights just from watching those amazingly brave people share their stories with all of us. So thank you. Thank you for being here.

[Craig Robinson]

This has been terrific.

[Michelle Obama]

Thanks so much.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Or thank you very much.

[Craig Robinson]

Foreign.

[Hoda Kotb]

I'm Hoda Kotb from Making Space. Okay, you and I are both on the other side of the jump, whether it is life after the White House or in my case, life after the Today Show. So what has this new chapter taught you about starting something new at any stage, about being a beginner again?

[Michelle Obama]

I would encourage all your listeners to embrace those transitions, to practice them. It's a muscle, and not to run away from change, but to embrace it as much as possible and turn that into something really special. There's a lot of learning that happens on the other side of our fear of change, and I'm living proof of that.

[Nico]

You know, nothing keeps me sharper these days as somebody who's getting up there in years than doing something completely new and foreign. And with Misha and I doing imo, it gives me particularly an opportunity to do something that is completely outside of my wheelhouse of experience that I've had before.

[Craig Robinson]

Now.

[Hoda Kotb]

Please give Making Space a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts and make sure you tell your friends. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening right now.