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- [00:00]
Tina Knowles
Foreign.
- [00:10]
Michelle Obama
Hey, everybody, and welcome back to imo. Today's episode is a little different than usual, and I think you're gonna love it. Recently, I had the privilege of joining my dear friend, Ms. Tina Knowles on the very first stop of her nine city book tour for her new best selling memoir, Matriarch. It's a beautiful and brave story of strong women, fierce mothering, and the power of continued evolution. It's a deeply personal reflection on where she's come from, who she's become, and what it means to build a family rooted in love and legacy. Our families have been close for years now, and I've always felt a special connection with the Knowles Carter family. We've learned from one another and shared lots of memorable moments along the way. And as mothers of strong, brilliant daughters who've grown up in the limelight, Tina and I have had more than a few conversations about what it means to raise grounded girls in a world that doesn't always give you that space to just be. I've always admired Tina's wisdom, her grace, and that undeniable strength she carries. So sitting down with her in Washington, D.C. on stage with a vibrant live audience was more than an honor. We talked about everything from her childhood in Galveston, Texas, to how she became the matriarch we all know and love today, and what it means to own your story. And especially as a black woman whose journey has inspired so many, there were lots of laughs. And since this is, imo, plenty of life advice along the way. So today, I wanna share our conversation with all of you, recorded on stage in D.C. so sit back and enjoy. Here we go, y' all.
- [02:13]
Unknown
Aren't we excited?
- [02:14]
Tina Knowles
Yes.
- [02:17]
Unknown
You all don't have to pretend like you are not just friends freaking out right now. Oh, my goodness. Not just on the bestsellers list, but number one. Number one. Look at this. If y' all have not bought your copy, please do, because this is an amazing read. Tina, how does it feel to be number one?
- [02:41]
Tina Knowles
It feels great.
- [02:42]
Unknown
Yeah. Oh, my goodness. And how are you feeling? I mean, you're about to launch a nine city tour, and I know you're not comfortable in the spotlight. You are used to being behind the scenes, making everybody else look good. So I know this is a little uncomfortable for you, y' all. She doesn't know how to be the center of attention, even though she looks like she knows. How does it feel to share your story with the world? Because let me tell you, when I wrote Becoming, I shared this. It's not about me, but what I'm Saying is that, you know, I was all confident writing the book.
- [03:25]
Tina Knowles
Yeah.
- [03:25]
Unknown
And then the day it was coming out, I could not sleep because I thought, oh, my God. I told everybody everything.
- [03:33]
Tina Knowles
Everything. That's right.
- [03:35]
Unknown
And I couldn't get to sleep. And I was like, what if I.
- [03:37]
Tina Knowles
Made a horrible decision?
- [03:37]
Unknown
Same here. Okay.
- [03:39]
Tina Knowles
So same here. I mean, I will call my kids, and I'll be like, I think I talked too much. And, you know, they were like, what did you put in there? Because I sent them their parts, you know, but they didn't. I was like, they too busy. And plus, I was scared, so I just held it from them. But they were like, what did you put in there? And I said, I tried to just tell my story, but sometimes your story includes other people. So that's the. It was scary. I was up.
- [04:10]
Unknown
I've been up for days, too, I hear.
- [04:12]
Tina Knowles
Between that and Cowboy Carter, I have never had sleep.
- [04:17]
Unknown
Say, oh, oh, that little project. Because it's not like you doing this and that. Right. So you're still leading the wardrobe on a big worldwide tour.
- [04:28]
Tina Knowles
Yeah.
- [04:28]
Unknown
Are you crazy?
- [04:29]
Tina Knowles
Well. Well, we didn't plan it that way, but I wanted the book out for Mother's Day.
- [04:35]
Unknown
There you go.
- [04:36]
Tina Knowles
And, you know. But we have a amazing team.
- [04:39]
Unknown
Oh, well.
- [04:42]
Tina Knowles
We have an amazing team of stylists. So they got this.
- [04:44]
Unknown
That's so good. Yeah, that's so good. And so the family is feeling good about the book, as we can hear. Nobody is calling. You going, mama? What'd you say that for?
- [04:53]
Tina Knowles
No, no, not yet. I'm gonna get the call, though. I know it already. Yeah.
- [05:01]
Unknown
Well, to truly understand that, Tina Knowles, that we've come to love and respect, and now I love it that you say that the reader's got to know your history. And this is a quote you say to keep me grounded. She. My mother told me stories from our family history. I listened to every single word she told me. These people, my people, my ancestors and parents when they were young, were characters in a long drama that I am now part of their struggles were not mine, but their lessons could be. This was my inheritance. These stories that people had done their best to erase or degrade to keep us from passing them down so that we wouldn't know our history or ourselves, I want to ask you, Tina, why do you think it's important to know and tell your story, Our stories?
- [05:58]
Tina Knowles
Well, just because I think in your family, have you ever wondered where you got something from? Where you got the strength to get through something? Or where you got the. You Know that feeling of fear or. I mean, there are many things that I connected the dots on. Just looking at my ancestors and my grandparents, you know, both of my great grandmothers were enslaved, but they kept their kids with them. So, you know, that that was a priority and you know, what that had to take back then. But somehow they managed to do that. And I just feel like that's such a strong thing. So I know when times have been so, so rough for me and I've been through a lot in my life, that that's what got me through. It's those ancestors, that strength that we were just, you know, kick ass women that hung in there and dealt with the obstacles. Yeah.
- [06:54]
Unknown
And what would you say that we got a lot of folks of all ages, but what would you say here tonight? What would you say to young people who don't know their stories?
- [07:04]
Tina Knowles
I think that you should research it. And there are. I mean, think about it. For me, I'm 71 years old, so.
- [07:11]
Unknown
Let'S just stop there, y' all. This is what 71 looks like when you act right.
- [07:20]
Tina Knowles
I'm sorry, but I was just saying that, you know, back in my time, we didn't have ancestry.com and all these resources that we have now. And I remember starting that process, like many years ago, maybe 14 years ago. Whenever you did ancestry, I did ancestry, and I did. But I started first just looking back to say, you know, my mom has told me these stories about my mother's family. She always told me stories about them. And I knew their names. I really didn't know my daddy's people. And so I started being interested in where the name is actually Boyance, and it's, you know, where he came from. And why is my name spelled B, E, Y, I, N, C? Well, someone did a something on Instagram that's a relative of mine. I don't know him, but there were like 17 spellings of that. And, you know, that happened to a lot of people in here. You might think that was your original, but when you go back and look, it's just changed, especially with people of color, because black people, because we took on these slave names and we were called everything. In my case, we weren't important enough for you to spell it right on my birth certificate. So all of us have different spellings. But it is important for you to know where you came from and to pass that on to your grandchildren, your great grandchildren. Because I never got to meet my grandmother and my children never got to meet their grandmother. And so I started writing this book, like, when I got a divorce in like 19. I mean, 19. Look at me, I'm aging myself. And it felt like it was that long. Yeah, I was 50. You're right. I was 59. Let me say that because I don't know what year it was, but I just.
- [09:19]
Unknown
We'll get to that later.
- [09:20]
Tina Knowles
Yeah, I felt very disconnected. I felt old at 59. Lord have mercy. This time it was 69. Can you imagine? But I just felt like my started thinking about mortality and I'm like, what if my grandchildren don't get to meet me? Not my great grandchildren? And how would they know? Because my mom's favorite thing was keep a word going. And that meant tell the stories and keep your messages. Keep your stories going generations down. And in order to do that, I had to start writing it. So that's how I started just recording it. And I was able to go back to that, you know, when we started writing it.
- [10:04]
Unknown
So it doesn't take deep knowledge. It just takes for you all out there start. It is stories. That's all it is. It's the stuff you hear around the kitchen table. You want to retain that, write that down. Especially in a time when they are trying to erase our history. So it is important to do what.
- [10:25]
Tina Knowles
And I encourage everybody. People ask me, what do you want people to leave with? And that is what I want you to leave with. That I never thought I'd publish a book. And you don't have to publish a book. Leave it for your great grandchildren so that they can know your history and hear it from you. Because you know, your cousins will be like, oh, your mama, you know, she was over there doing this and that and the other. Tell your own story.
- [10:48]
Unknown
Tell your own story. Now, speaking of names, though, you didn't like your name?
- [10:55]
Tina Knowles
No.
- [10:56]
Unknown
Tell us. Tell us about. Tell us your real name. Celestine. You said they called everything everything.
- [11:03]
Tina Knowles
And then I had a last name like Beyonce. That was a lot of name for a little kid in the 50s. You know, we didn't have these cool, creative names. I wanted my name to be Linda Smith.
- [11:14]
Unknown
Just Linda. You just wanted a Lindy. So tell the story about how you finally did change your name.
- [11:22]
Tina Knowles
Well, my mama was in the hospital and my brothers had to take me to register me for school. So I was like, pooh, please don't tell them my name is Celestine, please. And they were like, we don't know what to do. Cause they gonna look at your birth certificate. And I said, just don't give it to Them. So we went in there and we just said, our mama is in the hospital. We all look real sad, and we don't have the paperwork, but we promise we'll bring it back. But it's so important to my mama that we get my little sister in school. They didn't go along with it at first, but I was like, begging. And my brother Larry, who was a softy, he helped me out. And I literally, in fifth grade, changed my name to Tina. By the time we brought the paperwork.
- [12:06]
Unknown
It was too late.
- [12:07]
Tina Knowles
That was Tina. Her Beyonce.
- [12:11]
Unknown
You have so many amazing stories about your childhood. You will fall in love with the Galveston community that Ms. Taylor Tina talks about. But you describe your childhood in Galveston, Texas. You say, this was abundance. And y' all are gonna recognize this. A game song with my best friend. A swing set bought on stamps. Bulk packed hot dogs, five cent sodas, our own boat, and bread for the birds. We shared what we had and felt like we had to had it to give. My family was on pennies, but we were living like millionaires. Now, doesn't that describe a lot of our upbringing? You know, tell us about your neighborhood, about that big community of people that you grew up in, that family of cousins and uncles and nephews and all of that.
- [13:14]
Tina Knowles
Well, I grew up in this area that was a working class neighborhood. And everybody was poor, so I don't think we knew. And we had this backyard that they would say, oh, they have a huge backyard. I went to that house with Beyonce and she was like, mama, that is the biggest backyard. But to us, it was huge. And we had a swing set. Cause my mama collected snh green shafts. I don't know what they were, right?
- [13:44]
Unknown
They're too young. The S and H stamps, you lick them, your tongue would get all sticky. But you'd get the books and buy things. I can't believe you all had enough to buy swing sets.
- [13:53]
Tina Knowles
Oh, you know what I'm saying?
- [13:54]
Unknown
All we could get was a toaster.
- [13:57]
Tina Knowles
Listen, my mama was serious. And then she would take all of us. And my. I had eight. My sister had eight children. And we would all go and we would look so pitiful and say, do y' all want y' all stamps? And people would be, that's how we get our Christmas present. Which was true. But people would just give us stamps and we would just collect them. And they got. We had ping pong sets, croquette sets. Like my mom, that was the playground for everyone. She figured out a way to do everything.
- [14:26]
Unknown
But you said all the kids would Come to your backyard. And your mother would. If you were gonna go. When you describe having your own boat, explain what that meant.
- [14:36]
Tina Knowles
Because it's the ferry, the free ferry. But my mama would say, y' all want to go on our boat to the. And we'd be like, yeah. And then I was sharing in the book that when I became a teenager, that was part of the Tina game. Because I would take my boyfriends out there and sing to them and say, you want to go on my yacht? And they get there and it was the free ferry, you know.
- [15:02]
Unknown
But you always made room for everyone in the neighborhood, right? So you gather everybody up. I love that talk about that because, I mean, I spent a lot of time in the early chapters of your book. Because I feel like those stories. And I've known you, we've spent time together, but to really now get who you are, that sort of generosity of spirit, all of that, who you are, it really happened under that pecan tree in that backyard. And I want. Because it's also. When people see folks in the limelight, they make assumptions about where we're from and what we have. And I think it's important for people to really know the real Tina. Cause y' all had to make it through some tough times.
- [15:52]
Tina Knowles
We did. We had to make it through some tough times. And it was so. You know, my sister had eight children. My mom had seven, but five at home. I remember my daddy getting what they call pennies. And that was unemployment. And it was $35. Now think about a family with seven people living in a two bedroom house and getting $35 a week. It was, you know, it was some really tough times, but it was so much fun. Like, we just had so much fun. And we had so many kids around. And when you fought one, you had to fight everybody. So, you know, we played in that tree, we had all these games. And we really didn't realize how poor until somebody told us, you know?
- [16:37]
Unknown
Right.
- [16:37]
Tina Knowles
Yeah.
- [16:38]
Unknown
Do you remember your first fight? Cause I sure do.
- [16:40]
Tina Knowles
Oh, yeah.
- [16:41]
Unknown
Because when you grow up in the neighborhood, at some point you gotta fight somebody just to be able to stay outside.
- [16:46]
Tina Knowles
It was a girl. Absolutely true. You know, and you had to stay outside. Cause your mama put you outside. So go outside, tell her to get ready to get dark and then come back in. Cause there's no. And this girl, Badina. I used to fight.
- [17:03]
Unknown
I mean, she used to see there.
- [17:05]
Tina Knowles
She used to fight me. She used to beat the crap out of me and my brother. I remember I broke my thumb and I had a cast on. And he said, you got superpower. It's superpowers in that cast. And I went and hit Medina. I started a fight with her and just hit her.
- [17:22]
Unknown
Cause sometimes you gotta do that with the Medinas of the world. Sometimes you gotta go Jack. That's right.
- [17:27]
Tina Knowles
So I just make sure you keep.
- [17:29]
Unknown
Her thrown off, right?
- [17:30]
Tina Knowles
That's right. But then she.
- [17:31]
Unknown
Mine was Dee Dee.
- [17:33]
Tina Knowles
Dee Dee.
- [17:33]
Unknown
Yeah, I had to.
- [17:35]
Tina Knowles
So why did Dede want you to?
- [17:37]
Unknown
You know, she was always messing with me, right? So it was one of those things. And I think I took her off guard because I just decided. I decided in my little soul, I'mma go beat Dede up. That's right. So I went outside, we were just playing jump rope. And then I was like, wah, wah, wah, wah.
- [17:53]
Tina Knowles
And see, you have the same story. Cause you didn't even have a reason that day you waiting for.
- [17:58]
Unknown
She gave me reasons many of the days.
- [18:00]
Tina Knowles
That's what I'm saying. So that day you just catch him off guard. But I hit Badina, knocked Badina down. And then I said, oh, what did I do?
- [18:08]
Unknown
Why did he fell down?
- [18:10]
Tina Knowles
I ran home. No, I ran home. I was like, badina is gonna beat the crap out of me. But Medina respected me after that. So I tell my grandchildren that story. Same thing, same thing. And their parents are like, don't be tempted. Telling my kids to go fight. Like, you gotta protect yourself.
- [18:27]
Unknown
Well, the lesson for the young people today is use your words.
- [18:31]
Tina Knowles
That's right. Use your words.
- [18:33]
Unknown
But sometimes it's time.
- [18:38]
Tina Knowles
See, that's that double Capricorn energy of that.
- [18:41]
Unknown
That's right. That's right. Cause we get it, right? It's like sometimes it's like, you're not gonna have me hiding in my house, in my neighborhood. How did growing up in such a big family shape how you built and defined your family? Because, you know, we all know that you got a lot of kids and then. A lot. A lot of kids.
- [19:02]
Tina Knowles
I got a lot of kids.
- [19:03]
Unknown
And you are mothering so many people. But that comes from something.
- [19:08]
Tina Knowles
It comes from my mother just mothering everybody. You know, they call my mom a teeny mama. Teeny mama. None of them. My mom just teeny mama adopted the whole neighborhood.
- [19:19]
Unknown
Was it teeny mama or teeny mama? Teeny mama, yeah, it was teeny mama.
- [19:22]
Tina Knowles
Y' all get that? So, you know, she mothered people and she took people in. And so that's all I've known my whole life. And I. And I know in my heart that we are born to families, but that other people. I mean, it might not be your blood mama, but. But, you know, sometimes. But you can have a mama. And I just love mothering. Mothering. It's my gift, I think God gave to me, so I love it. But I got it from a mama.
- [19:54]
Unknown
And in this day and age when there are more and more people who say that they feel lonely, you know, especially with social media, we're still recovering from COVID it just breaks my heart to know that there are folks out there. One of the reasons we started our podcast was to create. Create a space for people to feel like they had some kind of kitchen table.
- [20:17]
Tina Knowles
Good.
- [20:18]
Unknown
And I think that what matriarch shows us is the power of building family wherever you are. And it takes an active engagement. It takes intention, because teeny mama was intentional about keeping her doors open and inviting people in. And you've been incredibly intentional about keeping your kids table broad and open.
- [20:43]
Tina Knowles
Yes. Yeah, I got it from her. And it's, you know, it's brought me so much joy. And I say all the time that, you know, again, I just want to reiterate that some of us are not blessed enough to have our blood family, but you can still have a family. There is always somebody out there that needs some love, too. You just exchange that love.
- [21:09]
Unknown
And we don't do this life alone. We were not built to do this life alone. You know, Barack was telling me we've been talking a lot about how the advent of the nuclear family, just like us, is new. It's new to this generation. And a lot of the reasons that families and young couples are struggling is because they think they're supposed to do it with just them. And we all grew up with. With aunts and uncles and cousins. Our mothers were not ever trying to raise us by ourselves. So don't get fooled into thinking that it's just ever supposed to be you. You know, we need play mamas and cousins and uncles and aunties and pretend neighbors. And I want our young people to stop trying to do this life on their own. And I think Tina is living example that that's the way we're supposed to live. Tina, your parents just sounded amazing. But they, like most people of that generation, they lived hard lives. You say your mother was overprotective, cautious, and yet deeply devoted. You described your father as hard working, loving, and flawed. A terrible incident in a mind left him blind in one eye, and he never learned to read or write something you didn't even know until later in life. But despite These hardships, they showed up for your family. You want to talk a little bit about some of the lessons that you learned from your parents and some of the lessons you had to unlearn?
- [22:48]
Tina Knowles
Yeah, well, some of the. You know, I want to talk about that, too, because my mother was a wonderful woman, and she was a great mom, but she had a lot of fear, and she put that fear, tried to put it on me, but I was just too wild and stubborn to listen. But she also was. So when I say she's overprotective, I felt like she didn't trust me. Yeah, I went through some teenage years where my mom was. You know, she just. I felt like. You know, I just felt like she was. She didn't trust me. She thought I was fast or I was gonna go get pregnant, and my friends got pregnant, and so then she was like, oh, you know, she just harped on that so much and sometimes created a little shame about things that I shouldn't even felt shame about. So I'm very honest about that, because my mom was flawed. She wasn't perfect. She was darn near perfect in other ways. But in that way, we had a rough teenage year time because I felt like. And when you guys read the book, you'll see that there were times when I felt like she didn't trust me. And I have an older sister who's here tonight. Flo, I don't know where you are.
- [24:06]
Unknown
Flo is here. Oh, yeah.
- [24:09]
Tina Knowles
Huh?
- [24:10]
Unknown
Yeah. Where is Flo?
- [24:11]
Tina Knowles
Where are you, Flo?
- [24:12]
Unknown
Right there. Right there in the second row.
- [24:13]
Tina Knowles
Oh, okay. Hey, Flo. Stand up, Flo.
- [24:18]
Unknown
Flo. Yeah. Stand up, Flo.
- [24:26]
Tina Knowles
And she look real sweet, but let me tell y' all.
- [24:30]
Unknown
Oh, we gonna get to Flo.
- [24:31]
Tina Knowles
Yeah. Okay. Well, I won't spoil it. But anyway, I will call Flo, and I would say, you know, I can't stand her because she just said this or she did that, and, you know, Flo would smooth things out. So thank God I have this older sister. But, yeah, my mom, we went through some rough times, and I think, if anything, you know, she told me later when we made up, that I called her and I said, why didn't you trust me? And she said, you know, Teenie, I trusted you. I just didn't trust the world.
- [25:01]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [25:02]
Tina Knowles
And I understood that, and I realized my mom was a great mom. You know, at that point, thank God I learned that. I mean, I saw some other moms, and I was like, damn, I better go call my mom, because I didn't know what I Had, you know.
- [25:16]
Unknown
That's right.
- [25:17]
Tina Knowles
Yeah, that's right.
- [25:19]
Unknown
That's right. But like you said, it wasn't easy raising a bunch of kids in the deep, segregated south. Because, you know, when. You know, if you think times are bad now, you know, being in Galveston, Texas, growing up when stuff was real rough and even though you're folks showered you with an abundance of love, they couldn't or didn't always have the tools to protect you from the world, as you would come to realize. I want you to tell the powerful story of your first encounter with some of that ugliness. When you were just five years old, your mother put you in Holy Rosary Catholic School across the street, and you met Sister Fidelis.
- [26:14]
Tina Knowles
Yes.
- [26:14]
Unknown
Boo. Yeah. Yeah.
- [26:16]
Tina Knowles
And isn't that crazy that I'm 71 and I can remember Sister Fidelis. A lot of teachers. I don't remember, but my first five minutes of school. Cause I was very excited about going to school. I used to go there all the time because it was right across the street. And the first five minutes, she. Some kid pointed at me, and I pointed back at him. And she said, who's talking? And she came and got me and took me to the front of the class. And she hit us with these sticks. And I had never been spanked before, so I was like, oh, my God, I don't think I want to do this. So I ran home at recess and told my mom, I don't like that she hit me. And I was thinking my mom was going to go over there and get in her case. And my mom brought me back and said, apologize to Sister. And I'm like, what? And so that's what I mean about her just being passive. And. And, you know, my daddy used to drive the nuns, and my brothers worked in the schoolyard. All of us went to the school. And what I found out later is that my parents were actually bartering. My mom would make the altar boy uniforms and sew for the church. And I was just like, why y' all let them make us slaves? Like, you know, what's going on? But she was actually bartering, which was very unselfish of my parents. And I really appreciate that now because they just wanted to protect us again, you know? But the nuns were always. Because we weren't paying to go to school and we were poor. You know, it was like teachers, kids and nurses. They were like the elite. And they always said that I didn't belong there and that if I only knew. And they were just. They would just not. They tried to break my spirit. They told me that they wanted to break my spirit. And I was like, no, you're not. In my little five year old head, I just became this warrior because I had to protect myself.
- [28:11]
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. And I love that story because it says so much about children. First of all, that, you know, and I say this all the time, children come here with a certain wisdom and a spirit, you know, and it takes the world to knock it out of us. That's right. And you know, when somebody is setting your bar low, you, children know when somebody is talking down to them. And the reason I would think that you remember Sister Fidelis is because that was the first time you truly felt unprotected.
- [28:47]
Tina Knowles
It was.
- [28:48]
Unknown
And you knew you were better than who she thought you were.
- [28:52]
Tina Knowles
Right?
- [28:53]
Unknown
And you. And that stuck with you.
- [28:54]
Tina Knowles
It stuck with me. And there were many kids. Well, I won't say many because I don't think that my mom. I don't think that they were as. It was me and my brother Skip that they really picked on. And we were the last two, I think. But there were other kids too. Like, I remember this guy Glenn. And my kids always saying, don't say people's last name. They gonna come back and sue you. But I remember Glenn. No, they told me that many times.
- [29:26]
Unknown
I know, it's true. It's true. You're absolutely. And they're right about that.
- [29:29]
Tina Knowles
I shouldn't have said that then. I shouldn't even said that. But anyway, he don't get no ideas. Don't get no ideas. But Glenn, they would, you know, pick on him too. And his dad was a barber. And so I don't know if they just had a thing about us not feeling like we were worthy to be there with these professional people's kids, you know, I don't know.
- [29:54]
Unknown
But you knew there was something in you that told you that you did belong, that you were worthy.
- [30:01]
Tina Knowles
Well, at that time, I think it was more so that I just said, you're not gonna break my spirit. That's all I knew. Cause I had a mouth on me and I. And you know, I think, you know, I, as a kid talked back and I just thought, what did they call you? Badass Teeny B. It was really just Badass Teeny. And my, you know, I had these older parents, so by the time I came along, they were really tired and they didn't discipline me like they did my brother and sisters. They. With me, they were more lax. So I was always talking stuff, talking back into everything. And so it gave me that spirit to actually stand up to them, I believe.
- [30:52]
Unknown
Yeah. And you would need that.
- [30:54]
Tina Knowles
Yes.
- [30:54]
Unknown
You would need that. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You were always a fighter. In fact, as they say, they called you badass Tina baby. And you needed that attitude to make your way in a big family. But you also needed it growing up in the shadows of racism. Your sister Flo, who we just met, Flo, in your lifetime, participated in the early sit ins that led to the desegregation of Woolworth lunch counters in Galveston. Your parents had to deal with the constant targeting of your brothers by local police. So this fear, this constant fear of needing to protect you all was real. But then you grew up into the miniskirt wearing, afro, midriff, barren shaft loving team. So you brought in all that environment, you brought all that energy. I want you to share the tell about the time that you got hauled into the police station for doing absolutely nothing.
- [32:14]
Tina Knowles
Nothing. Just being outside of a movie. And this cop came up and said, come here. And I went over and my friend Vanessa, who was really scary and we went over and he was like, what's your name? And I said, why do you need my name? And it was all these kids waiting and we had just seen Shaft. So, you know, I was feeling really like, shaft. Shaft. Shut your mouth.
- [32:37]
Unknown
Shut your mouth.
- [32:38]
Tina Knowles
That's right. So. And he just kept saying, give me your name. And I said, I'm not gonna give you my name. I don't know why. And so he's like, well, I'm gonna take you down to the station. I said, well, take me. Cause I wanna ask. And all the kids are saying, she didn't do nothing. She didn't do nothing. And so he puts us in a car and he takes us to the station. And his sergeant chewed him out. I could see him like, what are you doing? But he came out and he said, officer, the officer is going to take you home and not on the corner where he found you. And I was like, the corner. We were in front of the movies, we're high school students. And he said, oh, well, you know, you look like nice girls, but y' all shouldn't be out there on the street. So he had told him this story. And when we left out, he like talked to us. So crazy. Cause he said, the officer's gonna take you home and not take you, you know, leave you on the corner where he found you. Whatever. And so when we were walking out, the guy says, is your brother's name Loomis Beyonce? And I said, oh, so You're. He said, yeah, I'm the one that kicked his. And I said, well, from where I was, he kicked your. So, you know, we had this big confrontation, and he actually called us some really bad names, and it was pretty bad. But that was just one of the incidents. Cause he actually wound up taking me to jail. Yeah, I went to jail, y' all. Which my granddaughter just said to me the other day. She said, you went to jail? And I was like, I didn't think about that. I put that in the book. But just riding motorcycles and racing with my brother Butch, he had a bunch of kids out on the beach, and we were racing, and this guy came up and he took me to jail, and he rode me through the park, where if you come to Galveston, there's a park called Menard Park. And black people would just line up in their Sunday best and be out on the beach. And we would just walk. You know, people would walk through, showing off their outfits. You wash your car and drive through. It was like a parade. You know, it's a little small town dmv.
- [34:55]
Unknown
Y' all know about that?
- [34:56]
Tina Knowles
Yeah.
- [34:56]
Unknown
Y' all know there's a whole bunch of places.
- [34:58]
Tina Knowles
So he drove me through that. So somebody saw me in the car, and they were like, tina, Beyonce in that police car. And I'm like, oh, Lord. And they took me to jail and did a cavity search. And I talk about that in a book. And it was the most humiliating, traumatizing thing to me to be like. I think at the time I was, like, maybe 18, and it was terrible. And he put me in jail, and I wound up having to pay all these fines. And we were on outside of the city limits. But this guy was just like a nightmare to us because he just was, after your family, harassing my family. Everyone just jealous.
- [35:41]
Unknown
Just jealous. But when you talk about the fear that your mother had, getting back to your mother and I'm sure your father, that fear was real. Yes. But I think the interesting thing, you know, because I talk a lot about fear, because we're living in times where we see how fear can protect you, but it can also keep you locked.
- [36:04]
Tina Knowles
Yes.
- [36:04]
Unknown
And small. And it's so important to be able to distinguish between the fear that you need and the fear that keeps you small.
- [36:13]
Tina Knowles
That's right.
- [36:14]
Unknown
You have been able to sort of evolve past that fear, that even though your mother raised you with that real fear, there was something in you that. That said, I can't carry that fear because I'll get stuck like they did.
- [36:32]
Tina Knowles
Right.
- [36:34]
Unknown
And that's important for young people to understand. How do you redefine yourself in an environment that is justifiably based in real fear?
- [36:48]
Tina Knowles
Well, I think that that was justifiably based in fear, and it was real. But I think that when I was a teenager, I think. Well, I just think to survive that, you're living in it, you don't have a choice about it, so you just don't let yourself dwell on it.
- [37:05]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [37:06]
Tina Knowles
But I think that my mother's fears of things gave me a fearlessness because I didn't want to be that way. And I wanted to. If somebody was, you know, messing with my kids, then I become a beast. You know, I'm gonna fight, and when somebody's trying to control me, I'm gonna fight. But I got that from, you know, from just not wanting to be fearful. But what I do understand is that my mama was still behind the scenes. She was protecting us in her way. I just didn't see it when I was young. I was like, she didn't protect me, but she did the best she could do with all the fear that she had because of the things she had been through.
- [37:52]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [37:53]
Tina Knowles
Yeah. How could I expect her to be fearless?
- [37:55]
Unknown
Yeah. You say something that when I think of my mom, who, you guys know, passed a year ago, but I write about her in the light, and she was very determined to not parent the way her parents parented her. And I think that that's, you know, and I knew all my grandparents, but I also knew their weaknesses. They believed in things that kids should be seen and not heard, that, you know, the old fashioned kind of stuff like that. And the thing I always say about my mother parenting brilliance was that a lot of times we. We just emulate what we see. But Tina, you're an example that you can change. You can be from one place, be taught a set of things, but you don't have to be of it if it doesn't serve you right. And so when you approached becoming a mother, because I want to talk a little bit about mothering, you made a concerted effort to be a very different mother.
- [39:06]
Tina Knowles
Yes.
- [39:07]
Unknown
Can you talk about that?
- [39:08]
Tina Knowles
Yeah. The things that, you know, I took the good from my mom, which was so many great things, but I also learned from the things that I felt like she didn't do such a great job on, and that was to protect my children. I think, you know, I would speak up, I would fight with people. I remember traveling with them, especially the business that they went into, entertainment. It was very scary. For me. And I remember having to go and fight with light people. Fight with, you know, the music people. And here I was, this country woman from Texas with this big hair and this thick, thick accent. And people didn't really respect me because they were like, who is she to come in here and start telling us about light? And I'd say, well, you know, I don't know about light, but I do know that they look gray and they some black girls. And you better get that blue light off of me. And I wouldn't leave until they. I wasn't aggressive. I wasn't loud. I would just stand there. And they say, okay, well, can you move? No. When you change the light, I can move. And I protected them. I didn't let people, you know, do certain things around them. They couldn't smoke weed in the studio around them. They couldn't curse. Can you imagine my country self in there telling these producers, I'm sorry, but can y' all not smoke in here? You know? And I remember just being. Having to be a little gangster sometimes, you know? I remember one time we were in one of the first things that we went to in Florida, and there was this group, and I'm not gonna say their name, but they were behind us, and they said, we. Oh, I'm gonna go take a picture with these and call the girls. And they were like, 16, 17. And they said it one time, and I was like, tina.
- [41:03]
Unknown
So you could feel yourself, right?
- [41:05]
Tina Knowles
I could feel myself. So I turned around and they said it again. And I said, I don't see your mama out here. Oh, no, no. But let me tell you the record.
- [41:15]
Unknown
What was that girl's name? You Heather Jack. What was her name again?
- [41:18]
Tina Knowles
Medina.
- [41:19]
Unknown
Medina. Like, I'm gonna Medina, you up in there, right?
- [41:23]
Tina Knowles
So the record people came and they were like, oh, my God, Ms. Tina, you cannot do that. We gotta get you to the car. And they said. They told me the name of the group. And they were like, they will shoot you. And I was like, well, they gonna have to shoot me. Cause they can't talk to my girls like that. And so I did a lot of things out of just being naive, you know. Cause that just came out of my mouth.
- [41:47]
Unknown
You have raised the other thing about your mothering. That was interesting to read about that. People don't maybe not know your girls are like night and day.
- [41:58]
Tina Knowles
Yeah, they're very different.
- [41:59]
Unknown
Two different people. And, you know, I always say about mothering, you know, you have your first child and they turn out. They're so sweet. And they sleep through the night, and you start thinking, I'm such a good mother and I know what I'm doing. And then the second one shows up and you're like, oh, no, what did I do? Can you talk about how you approached sort of seeing both of your daughters for who they were?
- [42:36]
Tina Knowles
Yeah, I think, you know, one of the things is just that when somebody asks me what's the best advice I can give to them, it is always that if you have more than one child, to see that child for who they are, to try to find out what, you know, what makes their clock tick or whatever, what excites them, what are their best qualities and not compare, you know, when you grow up. That was another thing that I think. My mother, she liked her boys. Oh, she liked her boys.
- [43:14]
Unknown
My mother, I tell people, Craig.
- [43:17]
Tina Knowles
Yeah.
- [43:18]
Unknown
I was like, what do I have to do, lady?
- [43:20]
Tina Knowles
I know. That's right.
- [43:21]
Unknown
I'm the first lady of the United States.
- [43:23]
Tina Knowles
That's right.
- [43:24]
Unknown
She's like, you live in the White House. She's like, but Craig's wine is so good. I was like, oh, lady, please. I'm so glad to hear. This is why we are the way we are.
- [43:38]
Tina Knowles
That's right.
- [43:39]
Unknown
That's right. Oh, my.
- [43:40]
Tina Knowles
But my mom, my brother Larry, that was just her heart and soul. So she'd be like, can you go in there and fix Larry's bed? And I'm like, no, fix his bed. Larry can fix his own bed.
- [43:51]
Unknown
There you go.
- [43:52]
Tina Knowles
But I think I learned from that too, because I feel like you can't. You know, you love your kids the same, and then there are qualities about one that you like better maybe than the other. But it's so important to make them feel just as important, and especially when you have a five year gap like my girls. And so one of the things is, you know, when Beyonce just wanted a little sister so bad, and she just.
- [44:22]
Unknown
Loves to watch and adored her, so.
- [44:24]
Tina Knowles
She got one, she was ready to send her back. But by the time she got to be 10, she was in that group. And all of a sudden, I just started noticing that the girls in the group would say, shut up, Solange. Cause Solange would be in there trying to run things, trying to teach up choreography and trying to keep up.
- [44:43]
Unknown
She was trying to keep up, keep.
- [44:44]
Tina Knowles
Up with her sister. And Beyonce started letting them say, shut up, Solange. Be quiet. Solange. Mama, come get Solange. You know? And I was like, this is Solange's house. Y' all in her house. And so I don't you love Tina?
- [44:59]
Unknown
Yes.
- [45:02]
Tina Knowles
No, I'm like, this is her house. Y' all visiting.
- [45:05]
Unknown
Uh huh.
- [45:05]
Tina Knowles
So, you know, but I took them to therapy because I saw, okay, let's start a division.
- [45:12]
Unknown
She took these little people to therapy. I did. I love that.
- [45:16]
Tina Knowles
I did. And you know, I remember some of my relatives, you gonna make them kids crazy. But I wanted them to be close and I didn't want there to be this rivalry. And I didn't want it to be that Beyonce was not Ride or die for her sister first.
- [45:38]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [45:38]
Tina Knowles
You don't let somebody do your sister like that.
- [45:40]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [45:41]
Tina Knowles
So, yeah, yeah. And so I took them to therapy and I found this young man that was amazing. And he explained it all to Beyonce. Cause I had been explaining it to her, but she wasn't listening.
- [45:55]
Unknown
That's what they do.
- [45:56]
Tina Knowles
That's what they do. Yeah. So things got immediately better with them. Beyonce hated therapy. Solange loved therapy. And so Solange kept going and eventually her therapist passed away. And so she stopped going as a kid. But it was just great for them. And, you know, I used to have to have a Solange day for her because when the kids are not really close together, I think it's way harder. You know, when they're really close together, it's different. But I just didn't want that rivalry. And they have been close ever since.
- [46:36]
Unknown
Yeah. I used to have to tell Malia, I still kind of do is I would make the point to her because they're three years apart and, you know, the big sister knows everything. So you got the little sister at the dinner table, and of course the big sister's like, well, that's not how you say that. And why don't you know this? And I would have to pull her aside and be like, don't step on my child.
- [46:58]
Tina Knowles
Right.
- [46:58]
Unknown
You know, no one stepped on you.
- [47:01]
Tina Knowles
Yeah.
- [47:02]
Unknown
When you were her age and you sat at the table not knowing anything, me and your father were like, oh, every word you utter is so brilliant. And now here you come, you know, making your little sister feel like you're not realizing that you're three years older, you know, and they look up to.
- [47:22]
Tina Knowles
Them so much that that is very hurtful to the younger kid, you know, and a blow to their self esteem.
- [47:28]
Unknown
But I'm the same way about not making comparisons. We got to the point at our dinner table where we just didn't talk about at all. You know, it'd be like, you know, okay, you passed. I didn't want to hear about grades. I didn't Want to get into that?
- [47:42]
Tina Knowles
Because that's how the comparisons go.
- [47:44]
Unknown
Exactly. Because I didn't know what kind of student Sasha would be, you know? So to this day, Malia still feels like I don't give her enough credit, but she does. She's.
- [47:54]
Tina Knowles
Well, they are both so brilliant. The other thing, I had lunch with them, and I was. Whoa. I mean, so confident and smart and talented.
- [48:04]
Unknown
Well, see, the thing is, when we get together, it's like we don't talk. Cause you didn't tell me you were writing a book the last time we had lunch. I did, because we were so busy talking to these girls who all talk so much.
- [48:18]
Tina Knowles
They do. But it was just fascinating to hear them, because it was. Those girls are. Oh, I don't know what y' all all in for, but. Oh, okay.
- [48:29]
Unknown
One of our many.
- [48:29]
Tina Knowles
Yeah, we. You know, they were so smart, and they just grew up so fast, I guess, because I wasn't around them all the time. And I remember when they were little.
- [48:37]
Unknown
Everybody feels that way.
- [48:38]
Tina Knowles
But you know what I remember is.
- [48:39]
Unknown
How.
- [48:43]
Tina Knowles
They are so patient and. Well, I don't know about Malia. No. And I only say that because I've had. Yeah, but we. I don't mean it like she had more. I had more experience. Yeah. But I remember keeping those kids and how patient she was with the kids. They're wonderful girls.
- [49:11]
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah. But the thing I like about your mothering is. And my kids say that, this is the phrase they hate for me to say. I'm not one of your little friends.
- [49:21]
Tina Knowles
I know. That's right. We talked about that.
- [49:23]
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah, I love that.
- [49:25]
Tina Knowles
I don't want to be, you know, I don't want to be your little friends. We can be friends later in life.
- [49:29]
Unknown
So many people are trying to be their kids friends, and they think that that makes you closer.
- [49:36]
Tina Knowles
Yeah.
- [49:36]
Unknown
But let me tell you, I was not my children's friend. I loved them deeply. They, you know, there was respect. And, you know, for those of you who are trying to be friends with your kids, our kids love us just as much as adults. In fact, the relationship, I think, is even closer because now they've earned my friendship.
- [49:58]
Tina Knowles
Right, right. Exactly. And now you can be friends.
- [50:01]
Unknown
Yeah, now we can be friends. Now maybe you know something.
- [50:05]
Tina Knowles
Right.
- [50:09]
Unknown
One thing I wanted to touch on before we move on, too, is just mothering in the age of social media and this whole quest for fame and likes and being out there. And as a mother who's had to mother people through fame, can you talk a bit about the Misperceptions of people who are chasing fame and how hard it is and whether they're thinking about what they're chasing.
- [50:40]
Tina Knowles
Yeah. You know, because it's not all fun and games. And the other thing it sets you up for is for people to lie on you and create their own narrative about your life. I have to see it every day on social media. My girls didn't want me on social media for that reason.
- [50:59]
Unknown
Tina, be acting up on social media.
- [51:02]
Tina Knowles
I get in trouble all the time. You know, I read something and it just makes me so angry, and my fingers just start twitching and I get trouble.
- [51:13]
Unknown
Gotta keep. Get your thumbs.
- [51:14]
Tina Knowles
That's right. Yeah, it's true.
- [51:18]
Unknown
But, you know, it's something to want fame. And that's the one thing with young people they don't. You know, the lights and the glitz, it's not all good, but there's a lot of sacrifice and a lot of loss. You wind up, you know, you have kids and people who have to grow up really fast and privacy is over.
- [51:40]
Tina Knowles
It's over. And the ability to protect your kids is nothing worse than somebody lying on your kids and saying all this horrible, crazy stuff about them. And there's nothing you could do because as a private citizen, you get to go on a rant on Instagram and clap back. But for me, it makes the news, and then I get the phone call. Can you just be quiet?
- [52:13]
Unknown
Well, let's jump ahead to the career, Tina. Right. Because, you know, in addition to being a ruthless mother and a ruthless. Ruthless and loving. As from one ruthless mother to another. No, but. But you. I love hearing about headliners because that was the hair salon you started, the beauty center you started. And it sounded so much like the hair salon I went to from the time in Chicago, the time I was, like, old enough to have money to get my own hair done. And my mother stopped pressing my hair by the stove. I got babysitting money so I could go to a real hair salon. And it was a real professional hair salon where almost all the professional black women in the city of Chicago went to. And it was called Van Cleef and Ronnie. He was my hairdresser until the time I went to the White House. Really? Yes, yes. But headliners reminds me of the eastern version of Van Cleef. Can you talk about why you started it, what that was like for you, what it did for you to have your own business, what it meant for you in terms of your self esteem?
- [53:32]
Tina Knowles
Oh, God, it did wonders for my self esteem because I actually started My salon, when I realized that I was totally dependent on my husband financially. And I felt like that part, y' all. Yeah. And I felt like I wanted to get out of the marriage. And I was like, what am I gonna do? Like, what am I. I just felt so dependent. And it really did work on my self esteem. So I started making this plan to open my business. Now I have to say that my ex husband was the person who pushed me to go to beauty school. He's like, tina, you're so talented and you can have your own business. And so it wasn't a thing. Like, I just snuck and did it. And he actually helped me, gave me the seed money for it and was like, you know, the marketing mind behind it a lot of times. But that salon allowed me the freedom to feel I was a boss. And, you know, that was not. It would have been great if I wasn't the boss. But that made it even better. And I wanted it to be a very professional place. And my friend, one of my best friends, Cheryl, is here tonight too. Cruzo, who was always encouraging me to start the business as well. And she and I used to go to the salon and we loved it. But they were, you know, selling chicken dinners and hot stuff. And it was all this gossip going on. And people would go. The stylist would go, sit down and eat the chicken dinner. And I'm like.
- [55:06]
Unknown
And you didn't get home.
- [55:07]
Tina Knowles
You've been there for four hours. I've been there for five hours. I was like, I can't do this. And people liked the experience, but I didn't like the experience. I hated it. And she hated it. Cause she was a successful business woman. And so I started the salon and I wanted it to be. We didn't allow any gossip. If you got gossip, you got fired immediately. We were professional. We dressed professional and we got people in and out. We educated the stylist on technology and we mixed it with those old fashioned, heating up some olive oil and putting egg whites in. And, you know, all of the things that I knew the hair needed. But the main thing that happened in that place was just pure love, like camaraderie between women. Because when you provide a space that is positive without that negativity, it flourishes. And people love it. And women flourish.
- [56:05]
Unknown
Oh, yeah.
- [56:05]
Tina Knowles
So it was more than a salon. It was, you know, it was a place of healing.
- [56:11]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [56:11]
Tina Knowles
And not looking down, not judging anybody, just. It was church. That's what it was.
- [56:18]
Unknown
We know about that. I mean, how many people here where your Hair salon is like your favorite place to be.
- [56:24]
Tina Knowles
Yes.
- [56:25]
Unknown
Where all the. I know, I know. And so you provided that space. But I love the way you talk about the need to get your independence because your marriage wasn't always what it should have been.
- [56:43]
Tina Knowles
Right.
- [56:44]
Unknown
Can you talk a bit about that first marriage? Cause I love the way you talk about Matthew. I mean, you are not together, right? There was a long breakup. It was a long, long, long breakup. It's a long break. I was just like, I'm reading like Tina.
- [57:01]
Tina Knowles
Yeah, you're like a.
- [57:02]
Unknown
No, he's back.
- [57:03]
Tina Knowles
Yes, he's. He's back many times. That's what Oprah said. She was like, girl. I was like again.
- [57:14]
Unknown
Uh huh.
- [57:15]
Tina Knowles
Yes.
- [57:16]
Unknown
But it was, but it was love there.
- [57:17]
Tina Knowles
It was love there.
- [57:19]
Unknown
But it just didn't work.
- [57:20]
Tina Knowles
It didn't work. It worked. Tell us. Well, I just think that people have. Not that I was not flawed, but you know, I just think people have their demons and Matthew has some demons. But I never doubted for one minute that he didn't love me and those girls and that he didn't take care of me. He protected me. And I think in my life, when I look back on it, I realized that I stayed so long because he protected me and I didn't have that protection so much when I was coming up. I didn't feel protected, I didn't feel fought for.
- [57:56]
Unknown
Oh, they've been seeing the pictures.
- [57:58]
Tina Knowles
Oh, okay.
- [57:59]
Unknown
I know, I'm like, is that funny?
- [58:02]
Tina Knowles
But no, I was, you know, and he protected me and he was. And you know, people say, God, you stayed with him for 31 years. Well, all 31 years wasn't bad, John.
- [58:12]
Unknown
That's right.
- [58:13]
Tina Knowles
It was a lot of really great times and we built things together and we were very dedicated parents and so we had a lot of good things too. And I don't have anything bad to say about him. I mean, I don't. Yeah, I've forgiven him and you know, he's forgiven me for sometimes. Cause I'm badass teeny beef. So I'm not trying to act like I was an angel. I wasn't an angel.
- [58:40]
Unknown
What were some of the lessons you learned about yourself in your marriage or in the exiting of your marriage?
- [58:47]
Tina Knowles
Well, what I learned about me in my exiting is that again, that message keeps reoccurring to me that I am enough. Because I realized that I probably would not have stayed if I'd have just taken the time to really look at myself and give myself credit for all the things that I had Accomplished. I was just trying to survive from day to day. It was always some. You know, in therapy, they tell you, and I've been in therapy forever, that if someone slaps you in the face and you're trying to recover for it and you get slapped again, you never can recover and get your strength because you just slapped. I'm not saying he was slapping me. No, that wasn't happening. Don't start no rumors, but. No, but I'm just saying, like, it wasn't only my marriage. It was like my parents dying. I lost my parents at my mom at 26 years old, six months after I got married. Then I lost my dad two years later. And, you know, it was just one thing after another. It was always something that was happening that I was fighting. And I realized that my whole life has just been filled with challenges. And when you take the time to stop and convince yourself that you are enough and that you know you're gonna be just fine whether you're with someone or not, that's that. If.
- [60:19]
Unknown
Say that part one more time, slowly, you are.
- [60:23]
Tina Knowles
You know, you will be just fine. And you will get. It's called getting through it. Because you ain't gonna get stuck there. There's light at the end of the tunnel, and you're gonna go through it, and you're gonna come out on the other side. And whether you are, you know, young or old. I wish I would have learned that lesson a lot earlier.
- [60:42]
Unknown
You know, I mean, I'm trying my best because I know that when it comes to raising daughters and women, you know, we're socialized to think that we aren't good enough. We're socialized to think that we need somebody else to make us whole. And that starts so young. It starts young. I mean, it starts with Barbie dolls and Ken and the wedding dress and. And the questions that we ask our daughters that even. You know, my grandmother, when I'm in law school at Harvard, y' all, my grandmother, I would call her to check in, and she'd be like, what you make for dinner? And I was like, nothing, Grandma. I'm in law school. I don't even have a kitchen in my dorm.
- [61:26]
Tina Knowles
Right.
- [61:27]
Unknown
You know, but it was the message.
- [61:29]
Tina Knowles
It was the message.
- [61:30]
Unknown
So I'm trying to figure out. Out how to not program that in my girls and the girls in my life. Because, you know, if you ask somebody, are you dating somebody, you know, they might be happy, but then you're asking them, well, you're happy, but are you dating somebody? And then they're dating somebody and then it's like, oh, you're dating somebody when you get married, Right. And then it's on when you gonna have a baby? When you're gonna have a baby.
- [61:55]
Tina Knowles
And that's not for everyone.
- [61:56]
Unknown
It's not for everyone.
- [61:58]
Tina Knowles
That's true.
- [61:59]
Unknown
So what would you tell young people out there about marriage and how they think about it?
- [62:06]
Tina Knowles
Well, I think that marriage is wonderful and I hope that it is in everyone's future because I think it's a beautiful way to build a life together. But that the person that you choose to build it has to be on the same page.
- [62:20]
Unknown
There you go.
- [62:21]
Tina Knowles
They can't be on a different page, you know, But I think that love is wonderful and I hope that everyone finds it. But if you are not with a partner, I think you can have as just as fulfilled, full of a life. And that is better to be by yourself than to be with somebody who don't get it.
- [62:41]
Unknown
Yes.
- [62:42]
Tina Knowles
Yeah. Or that's not so exciting when you walk into the room.
- [62:46]
Unknown
Yes.
- [62:47]
Tina Knowles
That they understand that you are a prize.
- [62:50]
Unknown
You know, I want to talk a bit about Uncle Johnny because, you know, through it all, right, because you were managing a salon, two creative girls who had careers skyrocketing, trying to travel, trying to keep a marriage together. And it sounded like Johnny was a huge part of helping you keep your life together. You want to talk about that?
- [63:21]
Tina Knowles
Yeah. Well, Johnny was, you know, by the time the girls got going really well, he was, you know, he was really sick. But just in my life since I was born, that was the person that I trusted more than anybody in the world that I felt like, never judged me and didn't judge anybody else. And that was just the most creative, free person. Because think about being born in that time.
- [63:48]
Unknown
Yes.
- [63:49]
Tina Knowles
If I was born in 54, he was born in what, 50, 1950. And he knew he was gay from probably three or four years old and how hard it was. But Johnny was my light. You know, my mama used to say, when Johnny fought, you gotta be there to catch it. And it was true because I just was there, you know, every day. He was my best friend and I could just be really, really free with him. Yeah, he was amazing. He could cook, he could sew better than anybody. He was the sharpest. He would make these beautiful clothes and he would be genuinely himself in front of anybody, you know, and not hide any part of him. I was so in awe of that, you know, how free he was.
- [64:41]
Unknown
Yes.
- [64:41]
Tina Knowles
Yeah. Yeah. And he, you know, he came to work for me at the house. And, you know, it was the even that gave me so much freedom because I knew that he was taking such good care of my girls and they loved him, they adored him. He's the reason why, you know, there is a renaissance and he's a big reason why that I was able to do those costumes and all of that. He affected my life more than anybody else in my life.
- [65:12]
Unknown
You have spent your life taking care of everybody else. You're doing it to this day. I mean, in the midst of your book tour, your mind, I know, is back there. You know, I could see your brain working up here. And sometimes that can take a toll. And. And for you, at one point, you weren't focusing on your health and you share in the book that you almost missed a life changing diagnosis. Do you want to talk a bit about that?
- [65:45]
Tina Knowles
Yeah, just. I struggle. I have two endings to the book. And if you guys, when you read the book, you'll see that it's like an ending of the book. And then I go back and talk about my cancer journey. And the reason why I did that is because in 2022, I made my mammogram appointment. And right before it was to happen, Covid came and they called me and told me, you know, we're not doing them in person, but we'll call you when we start again. So in my mind, I just got so busy with everything else that I did not go in 23. When it came back around that time, I thought I had gone in 22. And then 24 came and I was like, I gotta go have my mammogram. I gotta get all of my health things. So I did them, and they actually found, like, some spot on my cervix. And so I went back and had that biopsy and it was fine. So I was like, I'm fine. I don't need to rush to have the mammogram. But I waited and waited. It was like five or six months before I went back. Not the mammogram, but the biopsy. And then when I went and they said, oh, you have cancer. I was like, not me. Like, it was so shocking to me. And even though it was early stages, I flew to Houston to tell my sister Flo, and I said, well, I have the first. You know, I have the lowest stage. I have stage one. And she said, no, actually, it's a stage zero. And it just hit me that I could have got this at stage zero. And I am so blessed because they still got it very early. And I Didn't have to go to radiation or chemotherapy. Thank you, Jesus. But the point is that I could have kept going and not going, and it could have been stage four by the time I went. So I wanted people to think about that for a second. And I can tell you that one of the best things to come of this is on my Instagram. I can't tell you how many people said, I'm going to go get my mammogram. I've been putting it off for three years. You know, we have to, as women, take the time to take care of ourselves and go get our exams and not just put it off because there's so much going on all the time. And you want to take care of everybody else.
- [68:04]
Unknown
Please, y' all, listen.
- [68:05]
Tina Knowles
It's the truth.
- [68:06]
Unknown
This is so, so prevalent in our community. And not just men, women, but it's men.
- [68:14]
Tina Knowles
Men, too.
- [68:15]
Unknown
And, you know, breast cancer is not a death sentence in the way that it was. It is if we aren't checking. It is if we get too busy and life gets in the way. But with regular screening and really, you know, people should be going to the doctor. And I know in a time when people don't have health care, it's exp. Expensive. You know, this is why we need to have health care, which is why it matters who is in the White House, why you should be voting on and on and on. Because having access to regular care will save your life, right?
- [68:57]
Tina Knowles
And me, you know, I was in the Hamptons. I was just having a good time. And no. And I say that because I plan. I was there, and I was like, I'm just gonna stay another few weeks. And then something just hit me one day that, Tina, you better go back and get that biopsy. You are being very irresponsible right now. So I went home. You know, I went home, I think, two days later, and my kids were like, stay, don't go back. And, you know, I went. And thank God I went because I would have came back and got busy, and then it would have been another year. And that's what happens to. So please, please do that.
- [69:41]
Unknown
We're coming to a close. But I want to. I know, I know, I know. I'm looking at the clock going, you lie. You clock.
- [69:48]
Tina Knowles
You lie.
- [69:50]
Unknown
But I've got some fun rapid fire closing things I want to do. But, Tina, I want you to talk a little bit about sort of finding your wisdom or acknowledging your wisdom, because there's, you know, there's so much wisdom in this book. But I know, you're like me. And I've said this before, but at 61, I am just now willing to recognize that maybe, just maybe I know something about something.
- [70:31]
Tina Knowles
I know it's true.
- [70:32]
Unknown
And I'm just wondering how you feel about why does it take women so why does it take us so long as women to own our wisdom?
- [70:42]
Tina Knowles
I think, you know, it's funny because I said people approached me about a book before and even when they approached me this time, which was different, I kept saying, I'm not telling y' all my kids business. So if that's why they want to do a book deal, then I don't want to do it because I'm not going to share other people's stories. I'm not going to tell their business. But just the fact that I didn't feel like my story was worthy or that anybody wanted to hear about my story is crazy. And I had to go in and when I first talked to them, I was like, I'll do a book on behind the scene, things that happened, but I'm not gonna do a memoir. And you know, Kevin o' Leary is somewhere in the audience too, and I would love for him to stand up. He is my collaborator. And you know, when you write a book, your collaborator is so important because he's the person that went and found all this history on Weeks island and Galveston and. And you know, he taught me some things and he fact checks things because, you know, in your brain, I'm like, oh, Well, I was 19, so. And so. And he's like, no, that didn't happen then.
- [71:59]
Unknown
Really?
- [72:01]
Tina Knowles
Cause he's fact checking.
- [72:02]
Unknown
And then you argue with him like, nah.
- [72:04]
Tina Knowles
Right, right.
- [72:04]
Unknown
You don't know.
- [72:05]
Tina Knowles
But in talking to him at first, he was the one that encouraged me to just be more open. He's like, Ms. Tina, people would love to hear about that. And I was like, you think so? And he's like, yes. And we, you know, this book was 1,000 pages. We had to take 500 pages out. Can you imagine? So, so many more stories. And.
- [72:27]
Unknown
We got part two. Are there publishers in the house?
- [72:34]
Tina Knowles
But yeah, so I didn't even think that people would want to hear. I was like, they just gonna wanna hear about my kids. But it's so much of the book that you go through before you even hear about my kids.
- [72:46]
Unknown
That's why you number one on that Stella's list. Well, I'm grateful that you have shared your story with us, but before we close, let's do something fun.
- [73:02]
Tina Knowles
Ok.
- [73:03]
Unknown
I would love that we're gonna have some fun. In the spirit of the IMO podcast, we are gonna do a speaker special, in my opinion, rapid fire segment. I'm gonna call out a few prompts, and I want you to tell all of us the first things that come to mind.
- [73:17]
Tina Knowles
Okay.
- [73:17]
Unknown
The ultimate style icon is.
- [73:21]
Tina Knowles
Oh, God, it's too many to. I mean, I have so many style icons back from the 40s, you know, just. I don't know. Diana Ross.
- [73:33]
Unknown
Well, I think that's a good one. Yeah. Yeah.
- [73:38]
Tina Knowles
I don't know. Like.
- [73:40]
Unknown
Okay.
- [73:40]
Tina Knowles
I don't know. Too many.
- [73:43]
Unknown
Diana Ross, Cher. I take those. I think we. I think those are good. I think a good date must include good music. Oh, yeah.
- [73:54]
Tina Knowles
Some dancing.
- [73:55]
Unknown
Do you have a song that just gets you like. Mm.
- [74:00]
Tina Knowles
You know, my favorite song is for the Love of youf. The Isley. That's just the best.
- [74:07]
Unknown
Oh, yes. The best soul food dish is. Well, it's not your imo.
- [74:17]
Tina Knowles
Just soul food. Some good old cabbage and Mac and cheese greens. Yeah.
- [74:22]
Unknown
You know, this is, like, true. There is no sold food dish. Soul food is an experience.
- [74:27]
Tina Knowles
It is an experience.
- [74:28]
Unknown
Many dishes.
- [74:29]
Tina Knowles
Yes.
- [74:29]
Unknown
Right?
- [74:30]
Tina Knowles
She's love.
- [74:30]
Unknown
All right. The best show on TV right now is.
- [74:34]
Tina Knowles
Oh, God. The best.
- [74:36]
Unknown
I know that's hard. Do you even have time to watch TV these days?
- [74:42]
Tina Knowles
Not a lot. I have to be honest. I haven't watched it a lot, but I love Sistas.
- [74:48]
Unknown
Oh, yeah.
- [74:49]
Tina Knowles
I love Sisters because it is just. It's some real stuff on there. Tyler just gets it. You know, Tyler tends to do that. He does that. It's real. And, you know, people can talk, all that stuff, but I'm like, I know somebody just like every one of those girls.
- [75:06]
Unknown
The best movie ever made.
- [75:09]
Tina Knowles
Ooh, Cooley High.
- [75:13]
Unknown
Yes.
- [75:14]
Tina Knowles
Tina.
- [75:16]
Unknown
You know, I still. You know, when he gets beat up and up under the elbow, don't you cry. I cry.
- [75:23]
Tina Knowles
I still. Like I said, oh, my God. But I still cry.
- [75:27]
Unknown
Do the young people even know what we talking about?
- [75:29]
Tina Knowles
No, listen, you have to give up your black card. If you haven't seen Cooley High, you ain't see Cooley.
- [75:35]
Unknown
Honey, hand it over.
- [75:36]
Tina Knowles
Put it on the stand. If your black card and the five heartbeats.
- [75:40]
Unknown
Right. Okay. A green flag. A green flag. In dating that's often overlooked. A green flag.
- [75:52]
Tina Knowles
Oh, God. A green flag. I think just someone being. For me, being a gentleman.
- [76:01]
Unknown
Yeah, Just being kind. Just straight up kind. Forget how much you make. Just be kind.
- [76:06]
Tina Knowles
Right. Exactly.
- [76:07]
Unknown
One thing that's changing in your life right now, for the better Is.
- [76:13]
Tina Knowles
I am really feeling myself right now.
- [76:18]
Unknown
Woo, woo, woo. I like that. An underrated beauty hack.
- [76:34]
Tina Knowles
Probably this ice thing. Have y' all tried the ice?
- [76:41]
Unknown
Will you put your face in the ice?
- [76:42]
Tina Knowles
Yes, put your face in the ice. Or either get an ice cube. Blue taught me to. Okay, you take an ice cube. It's the babies, and it takes. I know all the. Yeah, they get all the hacks off of YouTube.
- [76:52]
Unknown
So how long do you have to put the ice on your face?
- [76:54]
Tina Knowles
Well, you can take an ice cube. Well, actually, Jules taught me that. He was like, grandma, you don't have to put your face in it.
- [77:00]
Unknown
Okay.
- [77:01]
Tina Knowles
Cause that's really hard. But just use the ice cube, and it kind of lifts up stuff. You know, at my age, you gotta try everything.
- [77:08]
Unknown
I'm gonna. First of all, Tina, you are beautiful. You have not aged one. I. I mean, you are looking so good. So tell us, as we close, what does it truly mean to be a patriarch?
- [77:25]
Tina Knowles
To be a patriarch.
- [77:26]
Unknown
To be a patriarch.
- [77:28]
Tina Knowles
Oh, I think to love unconditionally your children, your grandchildren, the people that you have in your life, and to be respectful and just, you know, a father figure to people. That is not all about being about yourself. Like an unselfishness. Yeah, that's what a pa. I mean, you know, handling things.
- [77:55]
Unknown
Handling. Handling things. And Tina Knowles is handling some things. Y' all, this. I just want to say thank you for inviting to open your book tour. You know, there's so much about you that I knew, but I learned so, so much more about you in these pages that makes me just love you so much more. Y' all. We didn't even. We just barely scratched the surface. There are so many good stories in this book. There's so much wisdom that you speak it out. And with this level of humor and honesty, you will be cracking up. You will be crying, you will feel renewed, and you will walk away learning something, which is what IMO is all about. Thank you. Thank you for your honesty, your candor. And I'll see you on tour, right? I see you out there. I love you. Everyone, everyone, big hand for Tina.
- [79:01]
Tina Knowles
No.