Love the Process with Cynthia Erivo

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson

Episode: Love the Process with Cynthia Erivo
Date: November 21, 2025
Host: Higher Ground
Guests: Cynthia Erivo (Grammy, Emmy, Tony award-winner, author, and actor)

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Episode Overview

This episode commemorates the first week in the IMO team’s new studio, featuring a heartfelt and deeply insightful conversation between Michelle Obama (Misha), Craig Robinson, and their special guest, Cynthia Erivo. The discussion covers Cynthia's new book Simply More, her creative process, perseverance in the face of adversity, transitioning between artistic disciplines, and embracing authenticity. Cynthia shares personal stories spanning her childhood, her landmark roles in "The Color Purple" and "Wicked," and the lived realities of her journey as an acclaimed performer. The episode closes with advice to a listener (Courtney in Portland) on sustaining creativity amidst a busy life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Welcoming Cynthia & Celebrating the New IMO Studio

• Warm and playful banter kicks off the episode with Misha and Craig reflecting on the show's growth and their gratitude for their audience. (01:13)
• The new studio is described as “professional” and “home” for the IMO team.

2. Why Cynthia Wrote ‘Simply More’

• Cynthia’s latest book is Simply More: A book for anyone who has been told they're too much (releasing November 19, 2025).
• Purpose behind the book:
  • Cynthia wanted it to be “not necessarily a how-to, but how I did.”
  • “I realized I had learned a lot up until this point…if I could find a place to just explain and share my thoughts and feelings and lessons, that might be really helpful.” (06:02)
  • The book is structured with questions and poetry at each chapter’s end, designed to be reflective and “a gift” people can pass on. (07:40)

3. On Creativity, Discipline, and Practice

• Cynthia likens creative practice to athletic training, emphasizing daily commitment and consistent effort.
• “You do it often, you continue to do it…and I think that's what…takes training to get to the point that you want to get to.” (09:26)
• Notable moment:
  • Cynthia describes keeping her voice sharp with daily scales and humming, underlining that any craft improves only with continual dedication. (10:31)
• The group reflects on family support and the difference it makes to get positive feedback, especially as a creative child.

4. Childhood and Upbringing

• Cynthia shares about growing up in Stockwell, South London, in a close-knit maisonette community where she never felt “too much.” (13:05)
• Her mother’s unwavering support was foundational:
  • At 18 months, her mom predicted she’d be a “singer or doctor”—noting her daughter hummed while eating. (15:29)
• First messages of being “too much”: Cynthia encountered this mostly at school, not at home, which instilled early confidence and a refusal to conform. (16:52)

5. Facing Early Setbacks and Finding Her Path

• Despite being regarded as “too loud” or “bossy” at school, Cynthia didn’t shy away from her nature: “I was so stubborn that I didn't want to fit.” (16:52)
• Early performance experiences—singing "Silent Night" at age five and acting in plays at 11—confirmed her talents and fueled her passion. These moments of recognition helped Cynthia realize “this is what I’m meant to do.” (23:28-25:11)
• Even in teenage years, a timely nudge from her mother helped her reclaim her spark during moments of doubt. (26:27)

6. Authenticity & The Trap of Comparison

• Cynthia discusses the uniqueness of everyone’s journey:
  • “No one can be Michael Jordan or Lionel Messi because they already exist… I want you to be the very best version of you.” (27:05; also mirroring her opening quote at 00:00)
• She frames her creative growth as an endless series of mountain peaks:
  • “You think you've hit the top, but it's like, oh, there's another mountain, there's another one.” (28:05)

7. Loving the Process, Not Just the Product

• Cynthia finds real satisfaction in the learning and rehearsal phase—not just outcomes or praise.
  • “I really have found joy and enjoyment in the learning process. The doing is like the extra cherry on top.” (30:07)
• The group acknowledges that lasting fulfillment comes from embracing every step, including setbacks.

8. Path to Professional Acting: Overcoming Barriers

• Cynthia explains her route to drama school was indirect; she learned about professional training only after asking for more chances at her local theatre. (33:40)
• A crucial mentor convinced her to audition for RADA; initially, she doubted she’d get in, but the challenge spurred her forward. (34:15-34:29)
• RADA Experience:
  • Cynthia faced immediate inequities: being denied paid work opportunities that white peers received, and then being punished academically for supporting herself. (36:36)
  • This triggered a turning point: "I would never allow my voice to be given to someone else to be used that way.” (39:11)
  • Craig contextualizes this as the “twice as good” lesson often forced upon people of color. (40:02)

9. Embodying Characters: The Cost and Reward

• The Color Purple:
  • Cynthia performed as Celie for 14 months (480+ shows), describing how the cumulative negativity in Celie’s story impacted her own psyche:
    • “After 200... I hear the word ugly and that, it's me. The line between myself and the character is so thin that it's almost non-existent.” (43:16)
  • She discusses the difficulty of separating oneself from a role and returning to one’s own identity.
• Wicked:
  • Cynthia details the physical demands of playing Elphaba, from the harness to the chafing and burns—emphasizing the immense, often invisible, effort behind iconic performances. (47:21)
  • Her connection to Elphaba felt destined: “I knew I was supposed to be doing it…as clear as day.” (48:21; 49:31)
  • On getting the part: “I think I just cried and said, thank you so much… it changed my life, truly.” (51:38)

10. What Makes ‘Wicked’ Resonant

• The widespread appeal of "Wicked" comes from its deep-rooted humanity and relatability:
  • “Each of these characters has a humanness…[Elphaba’s] vulnerability is so openly on show…that connects to this otherness that she feels." (53:54; 54:31)
  • New movie adaptations bring “expansion,” exploring more of Elphaba’s journey and relationships. (56:31)

11. Authenticity and Self-Acceptance

• Cynthia speaks eloquently on embracing quirks and non-negotiables—her nails, her shaved head—as continual, unapologetic expressions of self.
  • “When you meet me on a red carpet or you meet me in the street, they're not two different people… I've gotten to a place where I like to just exist as me.” (63:04)
• Craig adds: “Isn’t it easier to be able to show up as yourself every single place?” (63:06)

12. Listener Question: Sustaining a Creative Life

• Courtney from Portland asks: How can I carve out creative time with a busy life?
  • Cynthia’s advice:
    • Rethink your schedule and reclaim time for yourself—say “no” to others when you need to say “yes” to you (64:26).
    • “If you look back and you go, I didn’t make time for myself…you’ll regret it. But if you spend the time now on the things you love, you’ll actually be better for the people around you.” (65:26)
  • Craig emphasizes the benefits of unstructured time and creative boredom, which is essential as modern life is saturated with distractions. (66:46)
  • The collective advice: Be “counterintuitive”; be selfish for the sake of your art. (68:32)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Cynthia Erivo on individuality

  “No one can be Michael Jordan or Lionel Messi because they already exist… I don’t want you to be like me. I want you to be the very best version of you.” (27:05)

• On learning and creative growth:

  “If you think of it like a mountain, but it’s constantly growing…you think you’ve hit the top, but there’s another mountain.” (28:05: Cynthia Erivo)

• On separating self from character:

  “After 200 performances… the line between myself and the character is so thin that it’s almost non-existent.” (43:16: Cynthia Erivo)

• On self-acceptance:

  “I’ve gotten to a place where I like to just exist as me… they’re not two different people.” (63:04: Cynthia Erivo)

• On creative persistence:

  “I really have found joy and enjoyment in the learning process—the doing is like the extra cherry on top.” (30:07: Cynthia Erivo)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening & Studio Banter: 00:25–02:17
• Introducing Cynthia Erivo: 03:40–05:33
• Discussing ‘Simply More’: 05:45–08:13
• On creativity as practice: 09:23–11:05
• Childhood & Family: 13:01–15:45
• First obstacles (‘too much’ messaging): 15:45–17:05
• Finding her calling in music & acting: 23:06–31:21
• Route to Drama School / RADA: 31:40–34:29
• RADA: Inequality & Microaggressions: 36:02–40:28
• On inhabiting roles (Celie, Elphaba): 42:50–47:21
• ‘Wicked’ roles & resonance: 53:08–55:43
• Authenticity & appearance: 59:17–63:04
• Listener Question: Making space for creativity: 63:31–68:47

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Tone & Style

The conversation is candid, heartfelt, vulnerable, and often humorous—authentic to the personalities at the table. Cynthia is warm and direct, Michelle (Misha) and Craig are supportive, curious, and open about their own journeys. The episode balances deep exploration of creative fulfillment and practical life advice with playful sibling banter.

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Takeaways

• True fulfillment in art (and life) comes from loving the process, not the end result.
• The path to authenticity involves trial, error, and standing firm against outside expectations.
• Adversity, especially systemic inequities, can become a forge for clarity and self-advocacy.
• Creative practice requires daily discipline, self-kindness, and courage to claim time for yourself.
• Sharing your story, as Cynthia does in Simply More, can offer strength and inspiration to others traversing their own mountains.

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Suggested Listening Segments

• On “too much” and childhood confidence: 15:45–16:52
• Creative discipline and daily habits: 09:23–10:43
• RADA experiences & handling inequity: 36:02–40:28
• On embodying and shedding character roles: 43:16–47:21
• Advice for balancing creativity with daily life: 63:31–68:47

Transcript

[Cynthia Erivo]

Whenever someone says, I want to be like you, and I go, I don't want you to be like me. I want you to be the very best version of you. So whoever you are meant to be is who you're meant to be. You just have to find out how to be the very best version of you.

[Craig]

This episode of IMO is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

[Misha]

Well, I haven't seen you in a while.

[Craig]

I know. You're looking very rusty.

[Misha]

You know, I dressed warmly because of our first guest because I have so many goosebumps I was gonna get. Wanted to make sure you weren't. Stay warm.

[Craig]

Well, we are in our new IMO studio, listeners and viewers.

[Misha]

Yeah. What do you guys think of the new digs, huh?

[Craig]

It's just. It's a whole new setup now. There's still gonna be some changes. I understand. This is just, you know, first week up, getting ready for this series of tapings, so more to come. But it's really cool. I think our crew loves it. They got more space. They're not all squeezed up. They're not jammed in some little room.

[Misha]

Somewhere, some dining room that we've been using. No, this is. And you know, I've even had the. I had the benefit of seeing this space before it was ready, and it has really shaped up. And you know what? I can really tell the sound. It sound good in here.

[Craig]

Yeah, it sounds good. It sounds professional.

[Misha]

Yes, it sounds good.

[Craig]

Sounds like we're making inroads into the podcasting community. It feels like progress. It sounds like progress. I know, but, yeah, this is a big move. Really proud of the IMO team for, you know, me. We've really built a good year of shows and, you know, let's take a minute to just thank our listeners and our viewers for helping make IMO our first season a success. And we're just excited to keep it going, right?

[Misha]

We are. We are. It really feels like home now, imo. When we're on the set, it feels like we belong here and we're doing some good work and helping folks and.

[Craig]

Yeah, well, we are both excited you talk about your goosebumps, but we have got a great guest to help inaugurate our new studios.

[Misha]

Yes.

[Craig]

And we are both very excited.

[Misha]

Yeah. And my sister is talking about Cynthia Erivo, who is a Grammy, Emmy and Tony Award winning and three time Academy Award nominated actress, crazy singer, producer, and now authority, because Cynthia will publish her next book, Simply More a book for anyone who has been told they're too much, which how could anybody Tell her that she's too much.

[Craig]

Well, you all used to tell me I was too much all the time. We're gonna talk about that. Okay, Cynthia, you hear. Hear what I'm going through.

[Misha]

But her book is coming out November 19, 2025, via Flatiron Books. And Cynthia also stars in soon to come out wicked for good, November 21st.

[Craig]

Thumps because wicked boy. Yes, that was. Well, we'll talk all about it.

[Misha]

Yeah. Let's get Cynthia out here. Cynthia, please come join Cynthia Rivas in the house.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Hi, honeybee.

[Craig]

Oh, thank you for being so good. How are you? I'm doing, my friend.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm good and good. Thank you for asking. How are you?

[Craig]

I'm great. I am great. I'm just happy to see you in the flesh. Feels like I've been with you because you have been everywhere. You're everywhere.

[Cynthia Erivo]

A little bit nuts.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You know, and I've been trying to make sure that I. I am present whenever I go to places and do things, but it's been a really wonderful year of varied experiences. So any. I feel like all the things I've wanted to do, anything that's been on my bucket list. There are lots of things that I've been able to tick off.

[Craig]

So we were talking when you arrived to the studio, just briefly, about the last time we were together, which was a little while ago. You were still. You were just a baby star.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Still in the Color Purple on stage. That's right. Yeah. Yeah.

[Craig]

It was the. If I remember, it was the United Nations Summit in September was. What year was it? Was it 16? So it was our last. One of our last gatherings. And I would host the spouses of the world leaders. And, you know, we. As part of the, I don't know, entertainment of showing off our country, we decided to do some partnerships with Broadway. And so a couple of the big shows at the time came and performed. And Cynthia sang I am here.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's right.

[Craig]

And killed it. Killed it. Left everybody in tears. But that was. I got a chance to hug you. Yes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Backstage. I still have that picture.

[Craig]

I do, too.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, my goodness.

[Craig]

I do, too.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I do.

[Craig]

I do.

[Misha]

Well, we're gonna talk about a whole bunch of things, but I want to talk about your book.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Misha]

And I want to. My first question. Is it just being so accomplished, what prompted you to write your book now as opposed to some other time, like.

[Craig]

When you were sitting 70?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I knew that I wasn't going to be writing a biography necessarily, because I didn't want it to be that. Because I do want to write that when I'm 70. That's. That is for them. But I think I realized I had learned a lot up until this point. And I think I'd been writing so many speeches and giving speeches, and they kept connecting with people that I thought if I could find a place to just explain and share my thoughts and feelings and lessons that I've learned up to this point, that might be really helpful. Cause it seems that when I put some of that. Impart some of that in the speeches, it connects. So I thought, well, if I can just put it in one place where everyone can have a listen, not just the people in the room, that way I can share a little bit of insight. Not necessarily a how to, but how I did. Yeah.

[Craig]

That's what makes this project so special, simply. More. Because it isn't a memoir, it's really. It's like getting a peek at your diary.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Craig]

Just sort of walking through your life and how you've thought about things. And I think it's important for listeners and viewers to understand that this book is really. It can be a workbook in life. And I love the way at the ends of each chapter, there's always a question. There's a question, there's a message. Craig noticed, because he read the book, too, that there's also poetry, which is just hearing your thought process, your creative thought process is really a beautiful, sharing gift.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Thank you. Thank you. And I wanted it to be that. I remember when I started, I knew that I wanted it to feel like something you could pass on to people if you read it and you wanted to give a gift to someone, that it felt like a gift. And it's easy to digest, but it also makes you go back and go, actually, I do need to answer that question for myself. Or maybe I haven't thought about that question before, or maybe no one's asked me that question. And so I've put in things that maybe I haven't been asked, but have asked myself and have wanted to ask others.

[Misha]

I am so opposite in the creative realm. I mean, I grew up an athlete, and my family's creative. Misha's really creative. And we've talked about this. Like, when she was six years old, she used to write in a spiral notebook short stories that we call family. Well, we gotta find them.

[Craig]

Cause, well, we had them bound. And this is the trouble with, you know, living your life is the first family. There's so many moves, and so much of our life was out of our control. I can't find the book now because it was bound with some of the stories and I think I got lost in one of many, many moves.

[Misha]

But yeah, it was high comedy. Like we would be sitting as a family and she'd be reading the story. My mom and dad would be laughing hysterically and I would be more laughing at them laughing at her writing. I didn't really get it at the time, but that kind of creativity is. Is just awe inspiring to me. And I think of it kind of like athletically.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Misha]

How do you practice?

[Cynthia Erivo]

How do I practice? I think well, strangely enough, for me it's like training. You do it often, you continue to do it and you try and find ways to better it. You try and find ways to expand. I'm listening to others, I'm reading other things, I'm reading other poetry. I'm, you know, taking in, if it comes to TV and film, I'm looking at other actresses and I'm learning like educating myself on what there is. Just so there's always inspiration. The well is never empty, you know. And I think that's what. Cause I understand what you mean as an athlete, because I think of myself as an athlete as well. And I know that it takes training to get to the point that you want to get to. And I think that is applied to everything. If you. I always say if I stop using my voice, as in to sing, it won't work for me anymore. So every day there's a little bit of singing. Every day I hum every day I do a scale. Every day I warm up just so that the next day if I have to sing a song, my voice is already ready. Didn't have to love to live with you because then I would hear you.

[Craig]

Singing all the time and being like, shh, she's singing again. I think that's why I can't sing. Because if I could sing, I would be singing all the time for every word.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You see, I heard this, people say this, but you'd be surprised because you sing so much because you have to sing sometimes those moments where it's silent, you just are and it's quite. I have music going on in my head all the time. And so the quiet is quite nice, you know, when you don't have to and. And your voice needs a rest sometimes, just like your body does.

[Craig]

Yeah, but we were talking about my childhood and how much as you could hear my family support. When you get that positive feedback from the creative process, you just keep going. And that makes me think of your childhood. I mean Something that was just beautiful to read about was your amazing upbringing. And you heard the banter that we had about being too much. I mean, when you. In your book, you described how you have been described as sometimes too much. It was the same thing for me, you know, too loud, too bossy, too, you know, and it was a joke in our family. But, you know, it was still this feeling of, well, I think I'm just fine.

[Misha]

Cynthia, she was born bossy, but so was I. Yeah. Were you?

[Craig]

Exactly.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I was. I was very bossy.

[Craig]

Yeah. That's what Capricorns, you know. And the other thing I read about what you said about Capricorn, it's like, I'm probably like you as a Capricorn. I don't necessarily buy into the. I shouldn't say buy in. I just don't focus on Zodiac and all that. But when I read about a Capricorn, you're like. I'm like, oh, yeah, that is me write a lot. And other people being a little bit mad, because you're right. And sometimes that's the. Too much.

[Cynthia Erivo]

People don't necessarily like. Cause we're observers, we see a lot. We pay attention to a lot. We listen and don't necessarily speak. So if you're really paying attention to a Capricorn, you'll see what they're thinking on their face because they won't necessarily say it out loud until it's necessary to say it out loud. And when they say out loud, it's been thought about, and usually it's right.

[Craig]

There you go.

[Misha]

I can't imagine.

[Craig]

But your upbringing, your.

[Misha]

Yeah, let's get back to that.

[Craig]

Tell us about South London. Yeah, Stockwell.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You know, I went back there a couple of days ago. I was in London. I was filming something, and we had a bit of an afternoon off. And so as we were going from one set to another, we had lots of space in between, which never happened. So I asked if we could drive past my old home in Stockwell. And we parked up for a little bit and just sat and watched and looked. And I talked about where I lived and what the place was like. And it was really wonderful, actually. I lived in a little maisonette that and.

[Craig]

What's a maisonette?

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's like a big historic building that's been converted into a set of flats. Just like council building, but they've converted it. And I lived with four other neighbors. One lived opposite, and then the two lived downstairs. And then it was sort of connected to another building. And we all sort of lived Together. If my mom needed help, then she'd go to Ty, who was next door, or Sharon or Clive downstairs. And we all sort of looked after each other. And I never felt too much with them. They all were so kind and sweet and so there's this really wonderful sense of community within that building and then within my home. My mom kind of knew before I did what I was going to do and always just encouraged it. All she really wanted was for me to work as hard as I needed to get what I wanted. I don't think she ever. Nothing is a surprise to her. All of this isn't surprising to her.

[Craig]

At all.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Which is why she's sort of in her element currently, because she's sort of like, well, I knew something was gonna happen. There was no choice. At 18 months, in a baby book, she kept a baby book for myself and my sister. And it sort of marks milestones. When I first started walking, when I first started speaking, when I first had literally solid food, anything. But also she put in there what she thought I would be. And at 18 months, she thought I would be a singer and a doctor, both. Wow, Singer.

[Craig]

And did she say, what did she see in you?

[Cynthia Erivo]

At 18 months, she said she hums.

[Craig]

When she eats on key.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Hums when she eats, will be a singer or doctor. Because I was also good at picking information up. And I would like playwright and it might be scribbled, but I was still really interested in work. And I still write in cursive.

[Craig]

When did you start getting feeling these messages of, you're too much because it wasn't happening in your masonry? When I went to school.

[Cynthia Erivo]

When I went to school, I think first at primary school, towards the latter part of it. That's when I started, like, feeling, oh, I guess. I guess I'm doing too much, I'm too loud, I'm too bossy, I talk too much, all of those things. Because I was never told I'd talk too much. My mom never told me that. My mom never told me not to ask questions. So I would ask all the questions and she would answer them. And I was always curious. And I knew how to cook by the time I was 11 because I was always in the kitchen with her, all of those things. So by the time I got to school, it was very odd because now all of a sudden the things I had learned didn't make sense and people wanted less of it. And that's, I think, the first time that I thought, oh, I don't fit necessarily. But I think it was so stubborn That I didn't want to. I didn't try to.

[Craig]

It's like, I'm good.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm fine.

[Craig]

Yeah. What's wrong with you people? Sounds familiar.

[Misha]

Yeah.

[Craig]

It's like, you guys need to get your acts together.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Misha]

Yeah. Why are you so insecure?

[Craig]

Right?

[Misha]

Why aren't you doing more?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Actually, it was always when I was in a class. I remember there was a mathematics class I was in, and I didn't understand the equation that was being asked of us. So I just asked the question, I don't understand what this is. Can you please explain it to me? I don't understand why this is happening here. And I just kept asking when I didn't understand. And so they moved me out of the class. So what that meant was that I was falling behind because I wasn't able to be in the class that I was meant to be in. And all it was was that I was asking too many questions and she thought I was talking too much.

[Misha]

This segment is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, where progress isn't just in a brand's name. It's what they stand for. Because owning a home is just the beginning of the journey. You know, when I think about balancing a career and family and personal life, it reminds me of shifting from investment banking to. To coaching. You know, I remember you and I talking about it. And it took being organized, it took planning, you know, it took courage. But most of all, I had to create a new sort of paradigm for me to live in using the tools that I had learned from banking. And it's just like when you're buying a new home. You know, you have to plan, you have to shift gears, and it helps you build a foundation for your family, to build equity for your family, to build a future. What were some of the unexpected benefits and challenges of homeownership?

[Craig]

Oh, yeah, the challenges are that the home belongs to you. It is yours. No longer do you have a superintendent you can call. When something breaks, you've got to know how to fix it. You've got to develop your own sort of cadre of support staff, you know, a good plumber. Now, we both lived in condominiums. The beauty of the first condominium we bought was that it was a part of an association, unlike you. So there was, you know, sort of a general management office that we could go to, which helped us in that transition. But then when we went on to buy our first standalone home, we learn pretty fast that having a house is a big responsibility. You want to keep it nice. It's not just what's happening on the inside, but it's what's going on on the outside. Tuck pointing, all the unglamorous things like fixing your roof and mowing the lawn. But at the same time, you find that it's all worth it. You are making an investment in something that you will own. So all that hard work, what we learned was equity was ours. You know, we built that equity and it was ours to keep forever and ever. What about you?

[Misha]

Well, I would echo everything you said, but one of the real benefits of having a condo was that we didn't have as much as you do with a regular home. So when you're a first time home buyer, you're not bombarded with the lawn and the tuck pointing and refinishing the roof. Now, you paid an assessment to take care of that stuff, but if I had to do all of that stuff, I would have been writing a check for every single thing like you do when you own a home. But to your point about building equity, dad told me when we first were thinking about buying a home, he said if I had bought a home earlier, I would have reached as far as I could and caught up to the payments. Like, buy more house than you can afford and you'll grow into it. Because that power of equity, that investment you talked about was such a huge benefit to him at the age of 40 something when he first bought his place and to us when we were in our 20s. So staying in your home is just as important as getting in. And that means being prepared for what comes next. It's not always easy, but you don't have to do it alone. Progressive can help you navigate the complexities of homeownership. From helping you learn how to manage unexpected expenses to home maintenance tips, Progressive offers expert tools and resources, not to mention homeowner insurance plans, to help you stay steady and secure. With over $7 million invested in 2024 towards housing initiatives and new offerings like the UP Payment Program, Progressive is committed to helping homeowners like you stay rooted and thrive for generations to come. Homeownership isn't about getting in the door. It's about protecting what you work so hard for. If you're looking for expert advice, financial tools, and the resources you need to maintain your home and your peace of mind, visit progressive.com OpenTheHouse because when it comes to holding on to your home and everything it represents, Progressive insurance is here to help you stay the course. So your mom saw that light in you?

[Cynthia Erivo]

She very much did, yes.

[Misha]

18 months. She wrote down.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Misha]

The Dr. Singer.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Misha]

When did Cynthia know Cynthia was going to be that person? Because I think for a lot of young people, they don't have the confidence of pushing through that first level of rejection resistant, however you want to put it for you. When was that where you were like.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, a couple of them. Yeah, I had a couple of. There was when I was five. It's interesting, I always start with this because it was so uncomplicated for me at that age. I'd been asked to sing Silent Night for a nativity play. I was playing a shepherd. So I still to this day don't know why they asked me. And I think it's because I had the confidence to do it. I don't know even think they thought I had a great voice. I think I just wasn't shy. And I remember singing the song and I remember seeing smiling faces and I remember people clapping afterwards. And I knew and I understood that that was a measure of joy that people had experienced that came from me. And it was that clear, okay, well, I want to keep doing that, whatever that is that makes people joy, responded in that way. I would like to continue doing it. I think it wasn't until I was about 11 that I really knew that I had something. I was really good at English and I was really creative and I was writing all these stories and I was singing on the playground and people kept asking me to sing. So I would sing with a couple of friends and we would be on the playground, it would be us. And they would come and we could do little shows. And then I went to a little. I guess it was like a performing arts sort of extracurricular, short term thing. And we did a play. And I remember being able to imagine everything around me. And that sort of was that moment where everything clicked. Oh, I'm good at this. This is what I meant to do.

[Misha]

And that was at 11.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That was about 11. But then you start to. You explore it and think, oh, how, how far can I go with all of it? And I've had different moments in my life where it's been reconfirmed. Even when I've had a little doubt, then it's been reconfirmed again. And one of those moments is when I had a strange moment when I was about 18 where I just stopped singing. I don't know what it was, but it's very hard to sort of get yourself into the business. And I think I had. I think I had sort of lost a little bit of my spark. And my mom Realized I wasn't singing. And she just, like, walked past one day randomly on the way to the kitchen. And she said, I hope you're still singing. Didn't say anything else. You're still singing, aren't you? I said, well, I guess I am. Because I think it was just the fact that she had noticed sort of woke me up, that it wasn't just a thing that made everybody happy. It was something that made her happy, too. It's something that connected with her.

[Misha]

That's the parenting right there. She put some pressure on you.

[Craig]

I mean, that's what she was doing. We call that jujitsu parenting. She knew it. You know, it's like, you know, and you just bow and say, thank you, thank you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Thank you very much.

[Misha]

What does it feel like to be so good at so many things? Because again, I come from the sports side and the male side. We are all dying to be the Michael Jordan or the Lionel Messi or We want to be the best of the best. And it's really. No one can be because everyone's themselves.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's why.

[Misha]

Say that again, please.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No one can be Michael Jordan or Lionel Messi because they already exist. Michael Jordan exists. So does Lionel Messi. That is for them. What it is, and I have to say this a lot to younger people, is that whenever someone says, I want to be like you, and I go, I don't want you to be like me. I want you to be the very best version of you. So whoever you are meant to be is who you're meant to be. You just have to find out how to be the very best version of you. Because I'm already me. I exist already. And I don't know. I've never thought about being so good at many things. I know because I think I'm a constant student, always in progress. Yeah, I'm always learning.

[Misha]

Can you talk a little bit about that process for you so that our listeners can get a feel of it?

[Cynthia Erivo]

If you think of it like. Like a mountain, but it's constantly growing, but you can only see each peak from where you are.

[Craig]

You think you've hit the top, but it's like, oh, there's another mountain, there's another one.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And that doesn't necessarily mean that this is a mountain of difficulties. It's just another set of things that you have to learn and that you have to explore. So you get to that peak and you go, well, there is the choice to stay here. Cause it would be quite nice. And the view is really lovely from here. I could just stay hills. I mean, it's beautiful here. I can stay here. It's delightful. The air's lovely. It's great. I can just be here. I've got my supplies. I don't really need to go anywhere.

[Craig]

Got your thermos, however? Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

My tea's still hot. It's great. However, what is up there? The choice is, can I stay here? Yes. Do I want to know what's up there? Yes. Well, then, have to scale it, then. And that's what it feels like. You can be good at any number of things. You can be better at any number of things. You can be amazing at any number of things. But that keeps going. I don't ever think you ever get to the real true peak, because if you do, then what's the point? Then you have to stop. And I don't think I ever want to be the person that has learned everything and knows everything, because then there's nothing left to learn. There's nothing left to explore, nothing left to find. And I'm constantly finding new things. I'm constantly rediscovering myself as a performer. I'm constantly learning new skills. My voice, for me, is one of those things that keeps proving to me that there's more to learn.

[Craig]

So much of learning are these peaks of development that require failure and learning and wisdom that there's no way you can have. You can't skip a step. And learning to find the joy in that process.

[Misha]

That's. That's it. And that's what young people today. I'm speaking to my son, who happens to be here.

[Craig]

You have to love the process.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And I love it. I really do.

[Misha]

It's clear.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I really have found joy and enjoyment in the learning process. The doing is like the extra cherry on top. The bit before where I can figure things out. I'm learning and decide, how do I. How am I gonna do this? How did this work? Maybe I'll do it like that. Maybe I'll do this song here. I'll take this song apart. And that, for me, is where the creative process actually really lives. Because the thing that's complete is what comes from the creative process.

[Misha]

Right. Oh, I'm sorry. I want to. And we can go back if I'm. Cause I'm changing gears a little bit because I'm thinking about this love in the process. Because I'm getting the vibe that you were coming up straight. Singing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yep.

[Misha]

And then now you switch over to drama and acting. And I wanted to hear about how that process was.

[Craig]

That A switch.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It wasn't a switch. It wasn't a switch. I loved acting, so my first sort of like taste of acting was when it was about 11. And then I started getting into like plays and school shows when I was about 15, but I just didn't know was possible.

[Craig]

Yeah, you hadn't seen it before.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I hadn't seen it exactly. So I kept trying again. When you don't have a. There's no playbook, there's no instruction booklet, there's no blueprint, so you don't really know how to even begin to go about it. And no one had mentioned drama school at my school to me, so I didn't even know it was an option. So we had moved to East London by this point and there was a really, there's a lovely theater, Stratford Theatre.

[Craig]

Royal.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That I used to go to. And then I ended up taking sort of like a part time job there. And I worked in every possible spot you could think of. It was at the ticket sales, I was in Usher, I was at the bar. Wherever you could find, I was there. And I started as I was watching these plays and actors come in and out. I was really inspired by it and I knew I wanted to do. I want to do that too. I want to do that. How can I? I remember I asked if I could audition for one of the plays that was going on, the musical that was going on. I was told no. And I was really upset because I was like, well, I know I can, I know I can. But I think it was important for me to experience that because it just pushed me to figure out how. They then had this sort of young actors company thing that they were doing that I discovered. And I was like, I want to do that. So I applied for that, got in and I realized that when I. On the first day, sort of like the enrollment day, the first day we come in and you're meeting the teachers and you're meeting the tutors. The main tutor who was taking the course was a woman called Ray McKenn who I'd met five years before. So I'm 20 now and I met her when I was 15 doing a youth group production of Romeo and Juliet at the Young Vic. And I had not seen, seen her since then and this was the first time I was seeing her. And she said, oh, did you, have you applied? Are you gonna train? And I didn't know what she meant.

[Craig]

What was that?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I didn't know. I said to her, because it was.

[Craig]

A path that was unknown to you, completely unknown.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I literally said to her, what do you mean? What. What does that mean? Why are you going to. You gonna go to drama school? What's that? Oh, that's a thing.

[Misha]

What.

[Cynthia Erivo]

What do you mean? Here's a school for acting and that's. You can go to school for acting. You can go and train to be an actor. I said, huh? I didn't. I had no idea. So I think you should. I think you should train. I said, okay, I think you should go to the Royal Academy Dramatic Arts. I said, she called it rada. And I didn't know what that was. I said, what's rada? She said, royal Academy of Dramatic Arts. I said, no, not going to get into the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts. That sounds like I'm not royal. Yeah, I'm not going to get into that place. Sorry, I'm not.

[Craig]

What? You're not going to get Marie Kay?

[Cynthia Erivo]

What was it, Ray? I'm not gonna get in.

[Craig]

Love you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm not. Love you. Love you so much. I'm not gonna get in. I'm so. I'm not gonna do it. She said, well, if you don't apply, you can't do this course.

[Craig]

Oh, that's a good one.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Don't. Don't try me with a challenge.

[Craig]

Yes, we clearly don't tell me I.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Can'T do something because then I'm going to.

[Craig]

Foreign.

[Misha]

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[Craig]

So you get into radha.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Craig]

And it wasn't all smooth sailing. The story that you write about in the book is that people didn't appreciate your gift because it was a majority traditional white institution. Very much so. And there were many microaggressions that you faced in the process. Can you talk a bit about that experience and how you persevered? Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The very first one I faced was actually kind of immediate, which was so insane. I went there and just before I'd gotten into school to start the term, I got a job doing backing vocals for a group. And the reason I was excited about it, yes, it was lovely to go and do backing vocals with this group. But it also was a means to pay for the tuition outright. It would've paid for the entire thing. And I asked for permission, and she said, no. Well, no, I don't think you can. I think it's either you go and do this job and you have to leave, or you leave the job and you stay. That was the.

[Craig]

That was the administrator's problem solving, helping a student.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Correct. Meanwhile, there's another student in my year who is out for two weeks doing a play.

[Misha]

Oh, no.

[Craig]

Oh, the story. The story repeats itself again and again and again and again.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So. And so I. Oh, the hypocrisy. But then I spent the first year paying for it.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I then spent the first year being punished for that, for wanting to go and do.

[Craig]

Just even asking. For asking.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Because then I go, well, okay, I need a job. I'm going to do a job part time. But that part time means I'm in school for Monday to Friday, and I'm at work Saturday and Sunday. So by the time I come in on Monday, I'm exhausted and I'm falling asleep in classes. And instead of someone going, are you okay? They go, she's not focused. She doesn't care. So we'll give her the smallest role and we'll just. We'll keep punishing for it. And that just. And it went on for so long, I was thought to be unfocused. And then when they thought I was focusing, we did like a musical. And they got the smallest role in the musical, and they knew I could sing at this point. It wasn't like a.

[Craig]

It wasn't a mystery.

[Cynthia Erivo]

A mystery I could sing. That was what I did. And it gets to one of those performing nights. And then we find out in the daytime that two of the ladies are not very well. And so instead of saying, okay, you stay off, go home, or reassign the roles they were in, and I was asked to sing for them, and I can't even be mad at the question, because I think I just.

[Craig]

And I. I think you can.

[Misha]

That's mighty big of you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, but I think I was a more. I think to this day, I'm still frustrated at the. The. I wish I had known. To say no.

[Craig]

Yeah, right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You know, but the. But the lesson in saying yes and doing it was that I would never do that again. I would never allow my voice to be given to someone else to be.

[Craig]

Given to someone else and used that way.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I would be in full control of how my voice is used and whom I use it with and when. That was a real lesson in sort of like self confidence and advocating for oneself and knowing when to say actually, no. Because when I asked about that, it was, well, we didn't think that you needed help. You were really efficient.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And I was like, well, I really hope that anyone who is efficient doesn't experience that because if they're good at what they do, they should. They should be given the opportunity to be good at what they do.

[Craig]

Well, this is the. For listeners, when you hear black folks talk about needing to be twice as good, this is what. These are the experiences that are not uncommon to people of color all over the world. When someone has a preconceived notion of who we are based on difference.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Craig]

Your need to get through college the way you had to do it to get through the program was different.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Craig]

Your needs were different. And this is why you have to have diverse faculty and administrators so that people can, look, I recognize what this student is going through. And I won't say, oh, you just wanna be a backup singer. It's like, no, you're trying to eat.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Craig]

And if you don't have leadership that is diverse enough to be able to see themselves, then you wind up putting students and young people in a position to have to do twice as much to get through. And I wanna take this moment because there are young people who will not assume. People who loved you, who see you on Wicked. They see you as Elphaba. They see you as beautiful. And it's important to know it was not easy. It was not easy because there are microaggressions in there. There are people who don't have full understanding of a broad set of experiences and it makes it hard for people who are other.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. I think the wonderful thing about being able to write this book is that I get to share that this was not a walk in the park.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That this was not easy.

[Misha]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That to get to this point today here, it has taken a lot it's been a wonderfully crazy experiential journey of ups and downs, if you couldn't imagine.

[Craig]

I love the way you talk about how hard you work. I mean, and I think that that's a wonderful thing that you have laid out in your book because I, you know, we see the end product of all the work. So you make it to Broadway, you are in the Color Purple, you have blown it away. But the one thing you said, and I don't know whether it was in the book or I heard it on another conversation that you had, but how difficult it is for you to have embodied the role of Celie someone. For how long were you on?

[Cynthia Erivo]

It was 400 and I want to say like 480 something performances. It was 14 months.

[Craig]

14 months for people to understand. Celie's character was battered and bruised and told over and over again night after night that she was ugly, that she was ugly, she was unworthy. And you don't realize. Yeah, in order to personify that role.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You have to take it in and take it in.

[Craig]

And that is a hard thing to do to the point where now even singing I am Here, I just don't.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Do it very often at all.

[Craig]

Can you talk a bit about that work, what that feels like? Because we see the other end of it, we see the performance and we see your career. But I didn't even think about what.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It takes to because I think people see actors, it's like you just put something on, it's like a costume, you put it on and then you do, you say the words and that's it. But that's really 1% of what it is to really be able to. And this is what I believe, to really be able to. And I never like it when other actors are like, just act. Just you don't have. None of you is in that, in the role. That's not true because you are literally the body of this person. You, your body has to take in the character of whoever it is and then give it to your watcher, to your viewer. And with Celie, she. I really, I love her and I speak of her like in present tense because all of these characters, they are to me, they're like people, they're like friends who I've met and some are like distant, some are more present. She is this sort of spark of light who is constantly put down, beaten, physically and mentally told she's ugly, told she's not worth anything. Abandoned, abandoned again, abandoned again. And I would do this night after night after night. And so after a while, your body doesn't know what that you're pretending. And so your body just finds it sort of short circuits the way to get to wherever you need to get to. And so after like performance 200, 210 or something, I hear the word ugly. And that's it me. That's it's me. I hear it because the line between myself and the character is so thin that it's almost non existent because that is the short circuit to the character. You have to be able to embody who they are and believe the things that are being said of you and really hear it so that the reaction is connected and real. And that goes for every single character. You sort of make a pact with yourself and the character that they are allowed to live in you for as long as they need to until the project is done. The problem is, after the project is done, how do you make space for yourself again? That can sometimes be really, really difficult. It takes time to sort of distill the character from yourself again and find out what your baseline is, because you're still operating from the baseline of the character. Sometimes, yeah, it takes a lot. And sometimes it's not just like a mental. For me it's very physical as well. Depending on how much work needs to happen. It takes training, it takes. I just did a film called Karoshi and that was Samurai and I was training every day for a month because that's all I had in order to get Samurai into my body. And Samurai has to be in your body, otherwise it doesn't read. And it is some of the hardest work I've ever done in my life. Just because it's a completely different way physicality that I haven't used before. And it's the same with flying as Elphaba. You have to get. Your body has to get used to what it's like to be in a harness in the air when your weight is bearing down on a very thin piece of material, which is the harness which is holding all of your weight.

[Craig]

And you talk about the chafing, the.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Physical burning of your skin.

[Craig]

The burning of your skin as you were singing and flipping and flying at the same time.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And no one thinks of that. They just think, oh, Baba.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Oh, I'm so happy for you. And now I.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The amount of times people are like, oh, I want to fly, it's so fun. And I'm like, it's fun now because I know how to do it. But at the very beginning, there is a moment when you're in the air where it is not fun at all, where everything hurts. But if you're in the middle of a scene and you need to get to the end of the scene or the middle of a song, you need to get to the end of the song. The pain has to go somewhere else and you have to sing the song. So, yes, it's fun to be in the air, but after hour 10, it's not so funny.

[Misha]

Yeah, well, I want to go back to the Color Purple quickly here because I heard that you said that you wanted that part in the worst.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, I knew. I knew I was supposed to be doing it.

[Misha]

How did you know you were supposed to be doing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't know. I don't know. I knew it was coming and just something said, you're supposed to do this. Okay. I just. I was so sure if you asked me. What made me sure. To this day I cannot tell you. I don't know. I just knew that it was meant to be the thing I was supposed to be doing. I did not know that it was going to Broadway. I did not know what was coming afterwards. I just knew there was a small little play, a musical coming to this tiny little theater that held only 200 people. And I wanted to do. Didn't matter what it was paying it, didn't matter where it was. I knew that this was the production I was supposed to be a part of and I was meant to be doing it. As clear as day. Someone said, would you play another character? No, I know it's supposed to be Celie.

[Misha]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And you talk about the feeling when you sing the I am Here and feeling the audience's reaction, you know, it's sort of going back to Silent Night, the Shepherd. And you. Can you talk about that a bit? What that felt, what it feels like to use your physical self and be able to meet people in that way.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, It's a real out of body but really organic feeling. It's like. It's kind of like flying, you know, Everything sort of feels like it's connected. When you can feel the audience as it's happening. It's like the truest magic you could possibly imagine. I'm here was one of those moments where you could feel the audience take a breath, like breathe with you. Because up until that point they're all like. You can feel the tension in the air. Cause you want her to get to a place where she can say it, where she can do that. And it takes so much, which is why I don't sing it Very often, because I don't think that the song is a party trick. I think it is the culmination of a journey that this character has had to go to be on to get to this point. And I feel like you're about.

[Craig]

You have to earn it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. I don't feel that you can truthfully do that song unless you know the journey that the character has been on.

[Craig]

It's not, I am here. I'm here. And me. And me. I'm here.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's right. And so when people use it just because they want to sing it, it always feels a little false to me.

[Craig]

Because I'm sort of like, well, because you were Celie.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And it's like, you didn't live my life right now. Did you feel this? I know. I don't kid.

[Misha]

No, no, no, no.

[Craig]

Did you feel the same way about Elphaba as you did about Celie? That you knew that this was for me?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think I was so frightened of admitting it because I knew so many people were going up for it. But in my heart of hearts, I knew that I got this woman. I understood this woman. I knew that woman. There wasn't gonna be anyone else. You know, there was no other character that I wanted to play in this piece. And it would have been. It was this. It was Elphaba every time.

[Misha]

Can you help us understand the feeling you had when they called you up and said, cynthia, you got the job?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't even think I had any words. I think I just cried and said, thank you so much. And that was. I was just sobbing into my arms. I just. Because I think what I had realized maybe at that point is that. Is that actually to get to Elphaba was a really long journey. I had been learning her. I'd been learning. Unbeknownst to me, I didn't realize it was happening, but I had been learning this character for a really long time. I knew the songs back to front before I had seen the show. So I knew the songs. I connected with the songs. I understood those songs. And then I went to see the show and thought, oh, my gosh. I really. I. There's something. And then I've been asked to do concerts of this, and I do. Like, it just kept coming up. It kept coming to me. And then to be asked to come in and audition was. I knew I wasn't going to leave anything unsaid or anything in the tank, so I let it all go when I was in that audition room. So to get that call was I really do think it. Well, it did. It changed my life, truly. And I'll never forget the feeling of sort of amazement and speechlessness that happened that day, because I just. I was so grateful. And I think there was, like, a measure of disbelief that something like this had happened and could happen. It's like a dream, a real dream.

[Craig]

Role was in my lap and just a dream experience because it's ending so well. I mean, you can put all that work into anything, you know, piece of art, and it's not received in a way, you know, you don't. You would have done this no matter what. I think I heard you say that in an interview. You would have put just as much energy into the role. But to have it be so well received by the public, people of all ages.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Craig]

What do you think it is about Wicked, about the particular adaptation of it, your performance, Ariana's performance, that has.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think it's the humanity. I think it's the humanity in it. I think as much as it's this sort of fantastical, magical world, it's deeply rooted in humanity. Each of these characters has a humanness to them. They all have a want, they all have a hurt, a pain. And especially Elphaba, who. And it's so. So openly on show. She's so very vulnerable that I think people connect to that. They connect to this otherness that she feels. This oddity starting at birth.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

From the beginning. And I think to be able to watch it play out in front of you sort of validates anyone who feels that way that you're not. This is not something you're imagining. It actually is. And look at it. Watch it happening to someone else. Watch it happening to someone. And that someone happens to have my face. And I think that adds to the idea that, oh, well, if she. If she is the one behind the face of this character, then it opens the doors to the experience of the person who's playing it as well. And I think the connection to the people and the characters and what everyone else's experience has, I think, really exploded this out and open for people. The stories I've had, the connections, the people who have told me what they've been through, how this can, you know, how this has moved them. I could be here till the end of the year if I was to tell you all of the stories, and it's really, really amazing.

[Misha]

So what are you most excited about for the next installment now?

[Cynthia Erivo]

The thing I'm most excited about for the next installment is the growth. They're not in school anymore. They're really grown, and I've seen it and I'm really proud of the progression. These are grown women, and I think I can't wait for people to experience Elphaba as someone who's really in her power and having to deal with what the decision that she's made and she does. It's not easy for her, but I think there's something quite wonderful about the way she moves through the space now. She's not apologetic at all. It's kind of wonderful.

[Craig]

Yeah. One thing I was anything changed for the movie?

[Cynthia Erivo]

A couple of things.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But maybe not changed, maybe expanded, which just opened up a little bit more like the love story between Fiyero and Elphaba that's sort of been expanded so you can see it more, you can understand it more. It doesn't just sort of happen in one song because you don't have the time on a stage to do all of that. You get to learn a bit more about where. Because in the show, Elphaba just sort of goes away for the. A large majority of the second act in this, you sort of see where she's been and you're with her for a little bit and then she sort of goes away. And I think there's something really lovely about being able to see what world she's created for herself. So that's a little bit different. It's just the expansion of what we know.

[Misha]

I'm very excited.

[Craig]

And let me just tell you, I have a family who are musical cynics. You know, I got some who are like, okay, when do you break out in the song? Everybody to a T, Bawling, crying, you know, connected in this way. So, I mean.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And I have an answer for you on that, because I've heard that answer. I've heard that question before. When do people break out in song? All the time. I know people break out in song all the time. People are singing or humming. Yes, all the time. When you. If you really pay attention, you'll realize that people do it every day.

[Craig]

And we all have a soundtrack to our lives. I know. I do.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Craig]

I do everything to music. You know, you put those headphones on and it's like. It gets me ready. I see myself. It's like, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's what it is. And I think people get. So for some reason, there's this interesting disconnect when you go to a theater.

[Craig]

Like, and it actually happens.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Why are you singing out in public? Because we always do. We actually always do. And we have a connection to music. And music is. And more so a musical is where you can go to really heighten one's sense of emotion. Music happens when there's nothing else. When you can't say anything else, we can't say anything else. And often the song that gets sung is the thing that the person doesn't want anyone to see. So it's the innermost thoughts of whoever is performing.

[Craig]

Oh, I love the way you explain that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's that.

[Craig]

So take that, musical cynics.

[Cynthia Erivo]

There's a place for it, and it's very important. Go and see more of it.

[Misha]

I think my sister is shooting a shot across my bow.

[Craig]

No, no, there have been others. There have been others. Before you leave this table and we move on to other things, I just want to tell you how proud I am of how you are showing up in the world as your true, authentic self.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Thank you very much.

[Craig]

Which is, I know, a part of that peaking that you had to. And I would love to have you just talk a bit before we go about. How you've managed seeing all of yourself.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Because I know that there are young people out here who are looking and listening, and, you know, I just want you to talk a bit about that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Journey, the beginning of a journey of trying to be yourself. It takes. It's like trial and error, you know, you really have to be okay with making mistakes and discovering and not quite being comfortable with something and acknowledging when it's not quite comfortable and changing and shifting and being able to distill all of the noise that other people tell you about who and what and how you're supposed to be to find out what you need for yourself. And as I've been doing that slowly, I've sort of been finding little pieces. It's like, you know, treasure hunting, finding the things that make sense to me. That's what I want to do. Even, like, someone like nails is something I've been doing since I was 16 years old, and I. And I wanted to check myself. Like, am I just saying that? No. And I went back to a picture of me when I'm 16 and I have nails, and they are not as long, but they definitely are. I've been doing my nails. They're done. Yeah, they're done. And I realized that that's just something that makes me feel like I'm done. If I don't have a lick of makeup on, but I have my nails done, I feel like I'm done. So that's just something that's Like a. I don't know. It's not. It's a part of who I am. It's something that tells a story. It's another canvas for someone else to create, but it's also a way to express stories. And it's the same with the. I shaved my head, but I've been making my. Getting my hair shorter and shorter and shorter at this point since I was 23. And I. I knew it was because I just wanted people to see my face. I had this obsession with being able to just show up like nothing. Nothing, hiding anything, just everything on show. And it got progressively shorter and shorter and shorter. And when I got to Wicked, my scalp needed to be green. Someone said, well, I thought that was just sort of CGI'd. No, my actual scalp underneath the wig is green. And the only way I could do that is if I shaved my head. So I shaved my head, and that green is on my scalp. But when I took the wig off and the makeup off, I really liked what I saw.

[Misha]

Yeah, there you go.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So I just stuck with it. And at first, I would have someone else help me shave it, and then I was just like, just teach me how to do it. I'll do it myself. So I shaved my head myself.

[Misha]

Welcome to the club.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Thank you. And so all it is is this sort of culmination of all the things that have been. That have been who I am for a really long time. And people have started to sort of accept they're not changing, they just are what they are, and they're a part of her. And I've just wholly accepted all of those things and who I am, because I think they make me who I'm comfortable as that person. I was saying to my makeup artist, Joanna, today, I think sometimes people look at me and think. There was a moment where I think people thought I was putting it on as costume, but now I think people are realizing, oh, it's not costume. It's just how she is every single day. When you meet me in the street and I've got no makeup on, I'm still the same. I still have loads of piercings. I still have my nails done. It's not. You're not meeting another person completely. It's just that's how I exist. And I've gotten to a place where I like to just exist as me. So when you meet me on a red carpet or you meet me in the street, they're not two different people. It's one person. It's that part who just happens to.

[Craig]

Be wearing different clothes, easier to keep up with.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, my gosh.

[Craig]

You know, it's like, isn't it easier to be able to show up as yourself every single place? You don't have to remember the person you told them you were. You were.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's so lovely.

[Craig]

It is the key to authenticity. When people say, you're so authentic. Authentic. And it's like, no, I'm absolutely. This is exactly who I am.

[Misha]

And we are ready for our question from our listener.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Okay.

[Courtney]

Hi, Michelle and Craig. My question is about how to find balance. I have a busy job. I'm very close with my family. I work to keep a close group of friends, and I try to date when I can. But something I've been struggling with for a while is that I really want to have more of a creative life. I've always loved to paint and write, and I want to make those elements into something bigger in my life. But I find myself feeling like there are truly not enough hours in the day to stay on top of all of my obligations and also build a space for me to focus on my art. I'm now in my mid-30s and starting to panic that if I don't figure out a sustainable way to have a creative life, I'm going to lose this part of myself. How do you create that space for yourself to do what you really want to do day to day, especially when you're very busy or torn between a lot of different responsibilities? Courtney in Portland.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Hello, Courtney. I have a couple thoughts about this. I feel that there sounds like there's an organizational problem going on, so, like, scheduling. And it sounds like you're spreading yourself thin for everybody else and not really making any time for yourself. So I would maybe sometimes say, hey, I can't come to this thing that you want me to come to because I'm going to be working on something for myself. And I think it sounds like not wanting to let other people down or not wanting to say no to other people, which is really tough, but it's really great in the end. It will actually. I think it will help Courtney. You, Courtney, if sometimes those family obligations and those friend obligations don't have you at them, maybe sometimes you don't go to those things and that you take those times when you're not at those things to care for yourself and to pour into the thing that you love. Because if you're five years away from now, if you head away from this moment, five years away from. And you look back and you go, I didn't make any Time for myself. What do I have to show for it? But everyone else seems to be really, really happy around me. You'll regret it. Whereas if you spend the time now on the things you love for yourself, you will actually be better for the people around you. You will actually be a better person, a more joyous person, a more satisfied person for the folks that you love. And they probably will enjoy that version of you more, too.

[Craig]

And it's a particularly good, important question in this day and age when time alone is almost like the enemy, you know, with social media and phones and, you know, video games and, you know, the one thing I had growing up as a child that really encouraged my creativity was a lot of time alone. You know, when we grew up. Yeah, you had seven TV channels and. Yeah, you know, kids, TV ended at noon.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Craig]

You know, and it didn't start until 3. You know, there was just not. There weren't a lot of artificial distractions. The beauty of that is that it gives you time, you know, to be bored, to let your mind quiet, to have something to fill up. Right. And that's where creativity happens. I mean, when I'm six and I pick up a spiral notebook to start writing my first story, a lot of that was because I didn't have anything to do. I didn't have anything to do. And no one, my mother was not trying to fill my time.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No.

[Craig]

She was like, go play. Go figure your thing. You know, nothing is scheduled. You know, it's the summer, you got all day and you've played enough. Your brother's sick of you, Your big brother doesn't want to play with you anymore. And you think, there are things in my head. I'm thinking, I'm daydreaming. I'm letting things happen for me. That's where creativity happens. And if we don't allow for that, because we are constantly filling up every second of our time, taking in a TikTok video or listening to someone else forget, even care. Like, if we got off of our phones and got comfortable with silence and aloneness, that is the space where creativity comes. So I would say to Courtney, I'd also ask her to think about the.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Times when she's filling the time when she doesn't need to.

[Craig]

That's right. And is she allowing herself, spaces of quiet and aloneness?

[Misha]

So, Courtney, I hope you picking this up. It sounds like you have to do something that's a little counterintuitive.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Misha]

Be a little bit more selfish in order to be better for everyone else and to misha's point. Be comfortable being by yourself.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Let the Creator give yourself time for the creativity to happen. Yeah. Well, this is.

[Misha]

This has been wonderful.

[Craig]

It's been a delight. Thank you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Thank you.

[Craig]

Gosh, Congratulations on everything. Thank you, Misha. Simply More.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. I'm so proud of it. And for the great.

[Craig]

I mean, your album. You should be.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Thank you.

[Craig]

You should. Absolutely. It's a beautiful book.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Thank you.

[Craig]

There is more in it. All of this is in it. But lots of wonderful lessons. We get to know you in a very powerful way.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Thank you.

[Craig]

And it's gonna help some folks.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I hope so.

[Craig]

This is the time, the holidays, when you go see Wicked for good. Pickup. Simply More.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And give it to somebody that you love as a gift and come back and see us.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I will. I will.

[Craig]

You're busy, but we'll be watching you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

This will be one of my stops.

[Craig]

This is your IMO home.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm coming. I'll be back. I promise. And I don't break my promises.

[Craig]

Thank you for this.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Love you much. Love you, too.

[Misha]

Thanks again to our friends at Progressive Insurance for sponsoring this episode. For more information, visit progressive.com OpenTheHouse.