Some Friendships Need to Go with Issa Rae

Summary

IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson Episode: Some Friendships Need to Go with Issa Rae Release Date: March 12, 2025

In this heartfelt and insightful episode of IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson, the trio delves deep into the complexities of friendships, particularly focusing on the challenges of maintaining balanced relationships. Joined by special guest Issa Rae, the conversation weaves through personal anecdotes, expert advice, and relatable humor, offering listeners a comprehensive exploration of what makes friendships thrive—or falter.

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1. Understanding Friendship Dynamics

Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson kick off the discussion by highlighting the fundamental differences between male and female friendships. Issa Rae introduces the idea that male friendships often operate on a more transactional basis, where interactions are driven by mutual interests or shared activities rather than deep emotional connections.

[05:32] Issa Rae: "Guys are a little different. Guys are, their friendships are more transactional."

This observation sets the stage for a broader conversation about how friendships evolve over time and the varying expectations that come with them.

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2. Listener Letter: Eva's Unbalanced Friendship

The episode takes a poignant turn with the introduction of a listener letter from Eva, a 32-year-old seeking advice on a strained friendship. Eva details her relationship with Kristin, highlighting issues of imbalance and unmet expectations that led to Kristin abruptly ending their friendship after a family tragedy.

[14:12] Natalie (Eva): "I really came to respect Kristin. She's incredibly thoughtful, and it's a pretty special thing to have someone so much in your corner... But recently, Kristin lost a close family member, and I got an unexpected text saying she wanted to stop communicating with me."

Eva's letter resonates as it underscores the emotional toll that imbalanced friendships can take, especially during times of personal crisis.

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3. Exploring Friendship Imbalances and Their Impact

Michelle, Craig, and Issa dissect Eva's situation, drawing parallels with their own experiences. Michelle emphasizes the depth and emotional investment often present in female friendships, noting how these connections can lead to significant hurt when they unravel.

[17:42] Michelle Obama: "Because people show up, go to the funeral, you know, all of that sort of stuff."

Craig shares his own painful experiences with friendship breakups, particularly highlighting moments when he felt unequipped to support friends through personal upheavals.

[13:52] Craig Robinson: "I have had friendship breakups as a result of working together as we both ascended, some as a result of not being able to handle the change in position."

The conversation underscores the importance of emotional reciprocity and the challenges that arise when friendships become one-sided.

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4. Advice and Strategies to Navigate Imbalanced Friendships

The hosts offer practical advice for listeners grappling with similar issues. Michelle suggests introspection and understanding one's own needs in a friendship, while Craig recommends proactive communication, such as writing letters of apology without the expectation of a response.

[66:37] Craig Robinson: "If you really do care about how your actions impacted this person, write a letter of apology... but don't expect a response."

Issa Rae brings a unique perspective by advocating for diversifying friendship circles, even humorously suggesting that having more male friends can reduce emotional strain.

[67:08] Issa Rae: "Just get a guy friend."

The trio emphasizes the significance of understanding different "friendship languages" and being honest about one's capacity to invest in relationships.

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5. Final Thoughts and Encouragement

As the episode winds down, Michelle and Craig offer words of encouragement to Eva and all listeners navigating the turbulent waters of friendship. They highlight that friendships naturally ebb and flow, and sometimes letting go is a step towards personal growth and healthier relationships.

[64:25] Michelle Obama: "Use this as an opportunity... figure out how you can grow."

[67:21] Michelle Obama: "You'll be good girl. You'll be all right. This is how the cookie crumbles."

The episode concludes on a hopeful note, reminding listeners that while friendships can be complex and sometimes painful, they also offer invaluable lessons and opportunities for self-discovery.

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Key Takeaways:

• Emotional Reciprocity: Healthy friendships require mutual emotional investment and understanding.

• Setting Boundaries: It's essential to communicate one’s needs and set boundaries to maintain balanced relationships.

• Personal Reflection: Reflecting on what one wants and needs in a friendship can guide healthier interactions.

• Diversifying Friendships: Building a diverse circle of friends can alleviate the pressure on any single relationship.

• Growth Through Letting Go: Ending imbalanced friendships can be a catalyst for personal growth and healthier future relationships.

This episode of IMO masterfully blends personal narratives with actionable advice, making it a valuable resource for anyone seeking to navigate the intricate landscape of friendships.

Transcript

[Michelle Obama]

Like, the crisis would require an emergency session.

[Craig Robinson]

Oh, my God.

[Michelle Obama]

Like, somebody's on a train.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. Flying.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, there's. There's movement, and you're not gonna deal with the crisis. Yeah, I was like, we're coming. We're coming. It's a crisis.

[Craig Robinson]

My friend's dog died. We were all there at the house bringing her favorite snack. Like, this is. Took off work.

[Issa Rae]

That is a script. That is something that you could write on television plan.

[Craig Robinson]

And doing a text, like, you know, she not gonna be good. Like, she's. She doesn't need this. Right.

[Issa Rae]

You know what's so horrible about that? Is guys would be like, damn.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah, that's the crisis.

[Michelle Obama]

Obviously not a crisis. Sorry.

[Craig Robinson]

Send a dog up over.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, dude, I didn't know you had a dog.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Issa Rae]

What.

[Craig Robinson]

Where'd you get a dog?

[Issa Rae]

Okay. We are here, man.

[Michelle Obama]

This episode is brought to you by Pine Sol and theraflux.

[Issa Rae]

Hey.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, hi again. You. It's you again. Oh, I like your. Is that pink?

[Issa Rae]

It's. My wife called it coral, but it could be pink.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, it is coral. And it's a little pleated. This is breaking out of the, you know, basketball thing.

[Issa Rae]

Watch out now.

[Michelle Obama]

Collar. Okay. I see you, Craig Robinson.

[Issa Rae]

I am. I'm thrilled that you like my clothes.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, no, I see you guys.

[Issa Rae]

It's hard being this one's brother. I don't have enough closet space.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, you don't even need much closet space, but you're stepping out. You're stepping out.

[Issa Rae]

Thank you.

[Michelle Obama]

What's new and exciting?

[Issa Rae]

Well, I gotta tell you, while we're out here in La Rivian hooked me up with a vehicle to tool around in. And since you won't be able to drive one, since you don't. You don't drive.

[Michelle Obama]

I might. No, no, I'm starting to drive.

[Issa Rae]

Really?

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. I can drive.

[Issa Rae]

How's that? How's the Secret Service letting you drive?

[Michelle Obama]

Well, it's a secret. You could take me for a spin.

[Issa Rae]

They'll let me take you for a spin.

[Michelle Obama]

Don't you remember when I came to visit you in Milwaukee and the boys wanted me to pick them up from school, and we did.

[Issa Rae]

And you tooled up in a motorcade.

[Michelle Obama]

In a motorcade. In the pickup line. They were just like me. I was like, yeah, yeah.

[Issa Rae]

Four cars deep in the pickup line. Four suv.

[Michelle Obama]

That was so much fun. I'm sure their friends were like, what the heck?

[Issa Rae]

Oh. And then you roll down the window and it's you. They're like, me.

[Michelle Obama]

I'm like, get in and don't touch the guy.

[Issa Rae]

I do remember that.

[Michelle Obama]

No. Oh my goodness. But so we're talking about friendship today.

[Issa Rae]

Yeah. And people know by now that you and I are like have been best friends since you were born.

[Michelle Obama]

Yep. Cause it couldn't happen before then. I.

[Issa Rae]

No, it could not happen before then. But my first question to you is, how many of your friends now were your friends when you were little?

[Michelle Obama]

Like the little, little. I don't keep up, don't get a chance to keep up with the folks from Little Little time. Although as folks know, mom recently passed and a lot of people came to the funeral. And two of my girl girls from grammar school, the Gores, Pam and Nikki, and they had a little sister, Gina. Gina. But they came to the funeral and it was funny. We got a quick second to talk, but it was almost like I hadn't missed a minute with them. But so we vowed to keep in touch. But outside of childhood, I can say that I have at least, almost at least one good friend or more from every aspect of my life. Okay, so what I found is like one of you know, my best friend roommate, who, you know, Angela from Princeton. She was my roommate. She's my girl. Always talk to her from law school. My friend Verna just went to her house for lunch just the other day. She's in D.C. you know, and then they're my mom friends because as I got married. But then even before then, that was Pam. She was more my professional friend when I was, when we were grown ups and had jobs at law firms and you know, I could go on and on like that. And the other thing I made a point of, because one of the things that you said when Barack won and we got into the White House, you know, one of the things you were like, no, new friends. That's it. And I was like, ah, you know.

[Issa Rae]

I did say that.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, you were kind of joking. But it was important for me in the normalcy of my life to be able to or to keep my life normal even in those unusual circumstances, to continue to expand my friendships. So that's a long answer to say, yeah, I do. I keep making friends and I keep up with my friends.

[Issa Rae]

Right. And this today's show is talking about differences with those friends and falling out of friendship with good friends. And I'm just thinking, see, guys are a little different. Guys are, their friendships are more transactional. Right.

[Michelle Obama]

What do you mean by that?

[Issa Rae]

Well, what I mean is after sort of grammar school and high school where you're sort of friends with people because you're developing your group and your personality and your character. Most of the time after that, you make friends out of the necessity of wanting to get something done, Whether it's a business idea, a business venture, a sporting event. You've got four tickets to a game and your significant other doesn't want to go. So you. All right, I'm going to.

[Michelle Obama]

But you just make a friend. It's like, okay, let's be friends.

[Issa Rae]

Come to the game. Guys do that. Guys.

[Michelle Obama]

That's why y'all are broken.

[Issa Rae]

We are not broken, but we don't go as deep.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Issa Rae]

So if something happens, we're not as hurt.

[Michelle Obama]

Is that. Are you. Is that what meant y'all scared?

[Issa Rae]

Is that what. Nobody said it was scared? It's just.

[Michelle Obama]

They don't want my feelings hurt. So I don't. I can't know you.

[Issa Rae]

It's just a function of how we socialize with each other. And like you, I have all of my friends I could not talk to in a year, or I could talk to every. And the relationship is mostly the same.

[Michelle Obama]

That's cause y'all don't talk about nothing.

[Issa Rae]

Well, we don't. You're right about that. It's hard to go deep. You know, when we go deep is when it's too late.

[Michelle Obama]

Deathbed. It's like, woo.

[Issa Rae]

Or, you know, Bubba.

[Michelle Obama]

I wish I had asked him about his family.

[Issa Rae]

We're getting a divorce. It's already.

[Michelle Obama]

And then there's some tragedy.

[Issa Rae]

It's like, why didn't you say anything? I didn't say anything. Cause I didn't want to burden you. And I. I was gonna thug through it myself. But today's show, we're gonna talk about, you know, sort of falling out of friendship with close friends.

[Michelle Obama]

And we have company.

[Issa Rae]

We do have company. And I can't tell you how excited I am for this company. Because as I told her in the green room, I didn't watch rom com ish type shows. And my wife said, you gotta watch this. Insecure. And I'm like, I'm not watching it. And she said, you gotta watch it. It's good. And I said, I'm not watching it. And she said, you're gonna like it. I said, I'm not gonna like it. She made me watch the first two episodes back to back. Because she was like, on episode four, I watched the first one and I was like, all right, it's not bad. I watched the second one, and then I watched the third and the fourth. Cause I was only gonna Watch the first two. And I just fell in love with this actress who then I had to do a little research and I found out she was a writer. And she was now getting into the restaurant business and just an entrepreneur and a community folk, you know, kind of like y'all.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Issa Rae]

Just in the community doing stuff for black folks.

[Michelle Obama]

Giving it. Giving it back.

[Issa Rae]

Giving it back. And just so supremely talented. Let's bring on ISS Array.

[Michelle Obama]

Issa. Watch him, watch him.

[Issa Rae]

I'm just meeting her for the first time. So happy to have you here. She'll be okay.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, welcome to the table.

[Craig Robinson]

Thank you so much. I was just nodding and back there, I had so many times I wanted to jump in. Y'all, seriously.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, what's been going on? How are you so much? I'm doing really well.

[Craig Robinson]

I'm. I'm out here still just writing. You mentioned a restaurant that is called Somerville, that's in my neighborhood that I'm really excited about.

[Issa Rae]

What made you say, all right, I want to open up a restaurant? Is that a dream or was it just circumstantial?

[Craig Robinson]

You know, it's twofold. I've always said if I wasn't a writer, I'd be a bartender or a waitress. Really? Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

Okay, well, there you go.

[Craig Robinson]

I like. I like the food environment. I love serving, I love hosting, and there is a degree of that. And I love eating out. And so since I was young, I've even played, like, doing play dates with my brother and my little brother. Our play dates would be restaurant. Restaurant, yes. And I would be the bossy restaurant owner.

[Issa Rae]

Sounds familiar.

[Craig Robinson]

And then also, I remember having my best friend and I have the same birthday, and it was like the 30 something birthday.

[Michelle Obama]

You Capricorn.

[Craig Robinson]

I'm a Capricorn. Maybe you already know 12th over here.

[Michelle Obama]

That's why we bossy.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah, I know. I don't like to admit it. I don't want to give my mother that satisfaction, but we were just out. We always celebrate our birthday together. We went to dinner and we were just like, let's go. Like, we trying to go out and in your 30s, you're not trying to go to a club. You're trying to go to a place to lounge and have a good time. It was so hard. We went to, like so many different spots and it just wasn't the right vibe. It was just. And it infuriated me. I was like, we are both from la. We cannot find a spot with us that's just a good time that'll cater to us. And that Was like my villain origin story, where I was like, I wanna. I want that in my neighborhood, man.

[Michelle Obama]

Doing it with your little baby boss self.

[Issa Rae]

Were you gonna say something?

[Michelle Obama]

I wanted to find out.

[Issa Rae]

Go ahead.

[Michelle Obama]

As we talk about friendships, and we will eventually read a letter from one of our listeners who's seeking advice around friendships. But something people ask me, you know, which applies to you, is that as you've become Issa Rae, you know, how has that affected friendships for you? Or has it, you know, have you become more cautious? Have people come in and out of your life? Have you thought about it differently or felt like you needed to think about friendships differently, given your or, you know, your ascent and who you become?

[Craig Robinson]

I have been very lucky that I've had, you know, friends since high school who, because I'm from la, and there is a sense of this feeling like my job, like, I don't. I didn't come. I didn't move here to become myself.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

I was already here. And I grew up around this environment. And a lot of the people that I went to school with are my friends still. And even my name, my name is Joe Jope. That's how I grew up. And so even the Issa Rae of it is, like, those are people who don't really know me, and people who are my friends, you know, call me by name or my nickname. And so there's such a distinct separation. But I've definitely had friendship breakups as a result, some as a result of working together as we both ascended, some as a result of not being able to handle the change in position. The time, like, I had a friend who I thought I was gonna be friends with forever, but she went through two major milestones, kind of traumatic milestones, really young. She got married when we were in college and divorced when none of my other friends had experienced those things. And I didn't, as a friend, know how to handle that or have the capacity to handle that. And that was actually strike two, I think, on my part, for her. Strike one was her father died when she was in college, and she was the first friend whose parent had passed away. And I felt like I wasn't equipped to truly be there for her in the way that she needed me to. And that was around the time when I started, like, rising in my own career. And I felt like she never took my career seriously or my aspirations seriously. So we fell apart and drifted apart, and we tried to come together, but we were just in different places. And that was one of my most painful friendship breakups. Because it wasn't acknowledged. Yeah, in that way.

[Issa Rae]

Right.

[Craig Robinson]

But I haven't had any, like, you're famous. I'm using you type things.

[Issa Rae]

Well, that's a perfect segue for our listener letter. It's somebody who fell out of favor with a friend. So, Natalie, are you ready to read us? Read us the letter.

[Natalie]

Let's do it.

[Issa Rae]

All right.

[Craig Robinson]

Yes.

[Natalie]

Hi, Michelle and Craig. My name is eva, and I'm 32 years old. In my early 20s, I met my friend Kristin through a male friend of mine who she briefly dated. That relationship did not last, but Kristen and I stayed friends. If I'm being honest, though, my friendship with Kristin felt a little unbalanced from the start. I really like friendships to feel effortless, like both sides naturally want to spend time together, check in, show up for each other. But I noticed right away that Kristen wanted to make plans. Pretty often. I'm a people pleaser, and I had a hard time saying no to her invites when my schedule was already a little too busy with other friend hangs or dates. And when it came to my dating in particular, she had pretty strong opinions about what I was doing wrong. I am not perfect by any stretch, but I do have strong instincts, and I like to trust my gut rather than take advice like this from friends. Still, over time, I really came to respect Kristin. She's incredibly thoughtful, and it's a pretty special thing to have someone so much in your corner. We started to go on day trips together, and I genuinely appreciated our quality time together over the years. Recently, though, Kristin lost a close family member, and when I sent a text checking in, I got an unexpected text back saying she wanted to stop communicating with me. She said people who were not nearly as close with her had been a lot more supportive. She felt the imbalance in our friendship and wanted it to be over. Honestly, I did not see this coming. I knew our friendship was complicated, but I felt like I was being myself and it was not enough. Ideally, I wanted to continue our friendship as it was, even if it wasn't innately easy or perfect. But now I'm worried I'm a bad friend. Adult friends are not family and they're not romantic partners, but they are people we love, and I did not enjoy hurting her, especially when I felt I was just being myself. How do you maintain healthy friendships if there is an imbalance in expectations? Is it possible? What do adult friends owe each other? Thanks for your thoughts, Eva.

[Craig Robinson]

That took so many turns.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Issa Rae]

Can I just say before we dig into this, there would never be a Guy that wrote a question like that, we just don't. It's not our thing.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, I just. I can speak for me, but female friendships are complicated because we are. We go there, we are, you know, we. And we spend so much time playing out the sociology. I think women and I don't want to generalize, but women more. So we are sociologists. I just find the interpersonal interactions of everyone, especially my friends, are fascinating to me. So when I'm with my friends, and this was true at all levels, we're never just going to throw a ball, you know, we're not just trying to finish a game. It's like, I want to know why, how. Tell me more. What did that. Well, let's talk about that a little bit more. And in the process of that, you know each other inside and out, which is why some of these hurts. Why it hurts so much.

[Craig Robinson]

Absolutely.

[Michelle Obama]

Because, you know, and not every woman does this, but I know my friendships, all of them are deep and meaningful and they don't always last, but. But because of that, you don't end it without the hurt, you know, it is complicated.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. There's a piece of you that you're giving so many of. I mean, so many of the women in my life know things that I just would never share with anyone that I've. As a closed off person, if I've opened up to you, that already means, like, you mean a lot to me and that I. That I see a future with you and automatically if I deem you as a friend, then that's like, for life. And so the idea that that gets cut off for any reason, and especially if I'm culpable or if I felt betrayed by you, that is devastating. And even in hearing this letter, this woman felt like she was even hesitant to become this person's friend to begin with. And then ultimately was just like, oh, okay, I see the value in my life. But there was. There were tinges of selfishness there, just even in terms of how she saw the friendship. But it still felt like she was in any version of this. I don't know. I don't think that she was willing to be a full friend to this woman is the way that I read it. And that's okay, but you just have to be honest about that. You can't have it both ways.

[Issa Rae]

This episode is brought to you by theraflu. We've partnered with theraflu to spread awareness about the amazing work they're doing to fight for paid sick days for all workers in America. Mish, don't you remember when dad didn't feel comfortable taking paid sick days?

[Michelle Obama]

Well, I didn't realize he didn't feel comfortable. And just to remind folks, our dad was a blue collar worker. He worked as a stationary fireman for the water filtration plant for the city of Chicago. So he was a shift worker. But I do. What I remember is that our dad never, I can't remember him ever taking a sick day or a day off other than his assigned vacation days, never. And I didn't know why. I just thought, you know, he just had a great work ethic, which I think he did.

[Issa Rae]

Which he did. But he never, it seemed like he was either never sick, which we know now was impossible.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, our father had multiple sclerosis. So I would imagine there were days that he woke up and he probably felt tired. He probably felt a level of exhaustion that came with the disease, but he just pushed through.

[Issa Rae]

He just really just fought through it and didn't want to take any sick days.

[Michelle Obama]

And like too many folks in this country.

[Issa Rae]

Right?

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Issa Rae]

Right, Right. Theraflu firmly believes that the ability to rest and recover when sick should be a right, not a privilege. And I love that. Theraflu's Right to Rest and Recover campaign was created to help offset the financial burden that Americans without paid sick leave feel when they take a sick day. So far, seven and a half million workers have been impacted by this initiative and Theraflu is committed to keeping the fight going because no one should have to work sick or choose between their health and their job. Learn more or help someone apply for the [e-mail] right to recover. We are so thrilled that Pine Sol is a partner of imo. Pine Sol has been connected to our family forever. To this day, whenever my sister and I catch the scent of Pine Sol, we automatically feel better about life. The smell of Pine Sol has always taken us back to our childhood home. It is amazing how smells can transport you to a place or a moment in time. Another smell that takes me back is cherry blossoms, which always remind me of visiting Michelle in D.C. that's why I'm excited for Pine Sol's newest scent, Cherry Blossom. The cleaning power you know and love from Pine Sol is available in a new scent this spring, Cherry Blossom, which is light and fresh and leaves a lasting floral scent while eliminating tough dirt, grease and grime. You can use Pine Sol Cherry Blossom Multi Surface Cleaner to help deodorize and clean hard, non porous surfaces, including floors, sinks, counters, stoves, bathtubs, shower Stalls, tile and more. Visit pinesol.com to find where to shop Pine Sol Multi Surface Cleaner in the new fresh cherry blossom scent. This episode of IMO is sponsored by Chase Home Lending, helping you navigate the journey to your new home with confidence. Chase Home Lending understands that buying a home can feel overwhelming, especially when balancing career and family demands. They're committed to supporting you every step of the way, offering personalized guidance and flexible solutions to fit your unique needs. This reminds me of the story when my wife Kelly bought her first place before we got married. You know, once she decided to buy a place, we knew that that was stressful enough on its own. Then came the actual execution of the idea. We talked about the stress of the size of the transaction, the money needed for the down payment. But just as important was gathering all the documents needed by the bank. It didn't have to be that stressful. Whether you're a first time home buyer or looking to upgrade, Chase's home lending experts and smart digital tools can guide you through the process, providing necessary support for informed decision making. Dreaming of a home? Connect with a home lending [e-mail] start to get started member FDIC equal housing opportunity.

[Michelle Obama]

The biggest hurts that I've had in friendships and hurts is strong when there, when I didn't feel like there was emotional reciprocity, right? Because you know, the imbalance that she talks about, that's, you know, that's, that that's always present. You know, someone in every relationship is giving a little more, giving a little less. You know, some people have more or less at a given time. I mean people are complicated and flawed and all of us are. That has never been a problem for me. Like the complicated nature of my friends, right When I felt most almost betrayed is when I felt like we're all at the table giving, sharing and you weren't, you were at the table but it's sort of like it wouldn't be, you know, probably one of the reasons when he went through his divorce, his first marriage, I didn't know what he was going through there. Probably felt like a little emotional, you know, I felt emotionally robbed because it was like you weren't telling me, you weren't telling me and you know, and maybe because I've what, you didn't trust me? You didn't trust yourself?

[Issa Rae]

See, she's still hot about it. Can you tell me But I'm just.

[Michelle Obama]

Using in the table of for me at least that becomes more important, you know, and maybe it's because of who I am and trust and you know, when you and I let people in. So when I let people in there, you're in.

[Craig Robinson]

Yep.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, and I don't have the time or the energy to have to second guess what I say to you or how I feel. I want to be at the table with my friends completely myself. But that means I'm assuming you are too. And if you're not, and in the case of Eva, maybe her friend didn't feel like she was fully there, or maybe she wasn't.

[Craig Robinson]

That's complicated.

[Issa Rae]

Well, it started out with the term imbalanced, which I just can't understand when it comes to friendship.

[Craig Robinson]

Why?

[Michelle Obama]

Really, it's like, what's your problem?

[Issa Rae]

Because my friends are my friends. There's, you know, relationships ebb and flow, so it's rarely gonna be where the. Everybody's feelings are balanced at the same time. So isn't life always out of balance?

[Michelle Obama]

I think I said I don't disagree with that.

[Craig Robinson]

But there is a. If you're. If you're always showing up, if you're always the one, that's like, checking in. If you're. Even if you're always the one providing the tickets, that's fine. Like, tickets to the games. I'm always one with the tickets. If you find out your other friend has tickets and didn't invite you and you're not there, like, that's still. There's an imbalance. Like, I'm always thinking of you first, but you're not thinking of me first. That's like, that's the unhealthy imbalance where it's just, okay, you're not going to show up for me in the same way that I show up for you.

[Michelle Obama]

Or like, you're always at my house and I'm never at yours. Yeah, I mean, that. That. That's a problem. You know, if I. Look, I don't mind hosting. I don't mind being. Because oftentimes in my friend group, I am the one with tickets. I am the one. I have the resources. I've got the, you know, I. I have more of the special. Oh, guess what we can do. And there. There's a natural imbalance. But it's like you. If you never invite me on a trip, even if I can't go, or if you never plan a dinner or whatever, even if it's just pizza.

[Craig Robinson]

I know your effort is. Yes. Even if it's just pizza. Like, girl, I know you like pizza, and you invited me. This means a lot, you know, and I'm fine. I will Meet you where you're at because I know that this is your love language, but you can tell when someone's kind of checked out of any kind of effort or that you don't rank as high on their. On their list of friends. That's.

[Michelle Obama]

So what's your version of balanced in friendship?

[Issa Rae]

You know, I guess with me and my friends, because like you, I don't want to generalize as long as every now and then somebody else buys a round of drinks or it's lightweight.

[Michelle Obama]

Uh huh.

[Issa Rae]

You use tickets. Tickets is a great example. Not everybody has the same means. So inviting me to a Lakers game is one thing. Or if I invite you to a Lakers game and you invite me to a high school game, that's equivalent cd.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, I agree, that's equivalent cd.

[Issa Rae]

But what I don't get about this relationship was that she knew it was imbalanced from the beginning. To your point, Issa, my friends and I don't. We don't roll that way. We're more transactional. As long as we're getting something out of it, we feel okay. We're just. We don't go as deep. And like you were saying how you're. It's sociology for women. It's not. It's carpentry for men. You know, it's just.

[Michelle Obama]

It's shop.

[Issa Rae]

I didn't want to say Jim, but it's. It. We. We enjoy each other for surface level enjoyment. And if we need to go deep, we'll go deep.

[Craig Robinson]

To what extent? So like, even if I'm not getting your business, but like, for the worst of it, right.

[Michelle Obama]

We are getting my.

[Issa Rae]

So for the divorce, two Capricorns. I told.

[Michelle Obama]

We in your business.

[Issa Rae]

I told, like, I tell her everything.

[Craig Robinson]

Okay.

[Issa Rae]

But she left out. The reason I didn't tell her was because I was hoping that it would work out. Because if it didn't work out and I got over it, she would never get over it.

[Craig Robinson]

Oh, interesting.

[Issa Rae]

So I was trying to save everybody's relationship. Now when I talk to my boys about it, that's when I go deep.

[Craig Robinson]

You did go deep with him.

[Issa Rae]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

So you actually brought up, like, this is the thing that I'm going through.

[Michelle Obama]

Or did you bring up we're having problems and let's talk about. Or did you wait until we.

[Issa Rae]

Like I said at the outset, I waited until.

[Michelle Obama]

So that y'all. You didn't go deep.

[Issa Rae]

But. But no, see, now, see, there's no timing to it.

[Michelle Obama]

I mean, but there is.

[Issa Rae]

So it was deep for me. It was Deep for me, irrespective of.

[Michelle Obama]

The time, just the mere fact that you told somebody the obvious and we're giving them and you told your friends that it happened, that it happened, that it's happening, not that it.

[Craig Robinson]

And so when you were going through it, right, and it was hard, who did you talk to?

[Issa Rae]

I talked to two really good friends of mine, and we would go to a restaurant in Chicago on Friday after the market stopped trading, and we'd have cigars and margaritas and. And it was three of us, and we had one chair in the middle, so it was the whoever. And we called it the Chair of Angst. So whoever was having trouble got to sit in the Chair of Angst and say, this is what I'm going through. And for a while there, I was in the Chair of Angst for like, seven months because I was going through this, and I wasn't ready to divulge it to my family because I didn't want. If I could somehow kick. Save this thing.

[Craig Robinson]

That's fair.

[Issa Rae]

Then I could tell him after the fact. Yeah, you know, well, we had to work on it, but everything's fine now. But I know my family, and if I.

[Craig Robinson]

He's right about that. Is he right?

[Michelle Obama]

It's sort of right. We would have been. But, you know, you do what your family needs at the time. You know, there's no way we wouldn't have gone through a recovery. It would just have been good to know that before, it was like, everything's great, and now everything is over. That's how we found out.

[Issa Rae]

That's how they found out.

[Michelle Obama]

They found out. So it was like, what? How did you know? It's kind of the sharpness of it.

[Issa Rae]

I'm not saying it was the right thing to do. It was a plan. That was my plan.

[Michelle Obama]

But the thing that I like is that you did go deep with your friends. That's what I think. We were confused because it sounded like you did to them what you did to.

[Issa Rae]

No, what I was saying is we don't go deep until we need to go deep.

[Michelle Obama]

Okay, well, that.

[Issa Rae]

But that's. You know, it's not like a friendship is. There's always something to dig into.

[Michelle Obama]

But I find that in my friends.

[Issa Rae]

There'S always going deep.

[Craig Robinson]

There's always something because we talk about everything, and there's. There's just. There are things that you don't know affect you until you talk about it. It could be nothing. It could be talking about a TV show episode that then leads to like, oh, this happened to me. And this is how I was affected by it. And there's just. And nothing is off limits. And that's the beauty of it, is just you get to explore everything freely with no judgment. And that's also the devastation of, oh, I don't have this safe space anymore. You were this safe space. Or. And I didn't even see that it was a malicious space. Which, you know, getting back to this letter, it's like this woman seemed like she was pouring her heart out to this to Eva, and it was like, hit or miss.

[Michelle Obama]

I'm not even sure.

[Craig Robinson]

I don't even know if I like you. Girl, you're cool, but, oh, I guess I do like you, but it's too late. And so I think that that's also a violation of just like, am I in your life or not? Do you like me or not? Are we good or not? And now someone. Something happened that's tragic. And I think you're one of the last people I heard from. So maybe I need to be real about what this friendship actually was.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. And I think Eva's ask, am I a bad friend? Right? I mean, I think this situation is worth giving her some pause, you know, with maybe the other friend she is close with in real time if she does have those. And you know, and this is what women do. Like, this would have happened to me in one friendship, and I would have gone to a set of friends to say, hey, hey, 100% this is what happened.

[Craig Robinson]

Am I messing up here?

[Michelle Obama]

Was I wrong? Right? And the crew would be. They would dissect it. They would be, imo, in real time, you know, and I, I think, you know, with what I know what we understand from this letter. I would tell Eva, yeah, girl, you do need to think a little bit, you know, think a little bit. Because it, you know, for somebody to go through something tragic and then end their letter with, I think this friendship is over because it's not giving me enough in this particular situation. She probably would check herself to say, you're right, I wasn't fully in this. I was ambivalent. And I thought it was okay for me to be ambivalent here because it didn't mean the same thing to Eva as it did to her friend.

[Craig Robinson]

I have to say that I'm also guilty because part of this also triggered me in a way, because I am guilty of again, like you said, I am not a check in every day type of person. I'm a very much. When I'm here, it's all about you. But I don't check in as often as I should with friends. And I've been told that in the past and I've adjusted, but you just have to tell me. But it's not a natural instinct. And so with this, I understand, like, Eva being like, this is kind of a high maintenance friendship in a way where I, I can't. I'm not gonna be the same type of giving friend that you are to me. But I will show up in the ways that I can. If you need me, I will always be there. And so that is, That's. That would make me consider like, oh, am I, am I a bad friend? Because I don't think I think about you. But I might not text you to be like, hey, I just wanna make sure you're okay. But you should know that I would hope you would call me if you weren't okay and know that I would show up for you and be there for you. I'm just not the. I'm not considerate. Yeah, I'm not a considerate friend in the way that I would like to be.

[Issa Rae]

That's a. But I'm the pronouncement there.

[Craig Robinson]

It's. It's true. It's like one of my biggest flaws because I'm just so work focused that I'm not like, I'll think about you, but not tell you that I'm thinking about you. Right.

[Issa Rae]

And that's fair.

[Michelle Obama]

But that's also part of friendship, right? Because, you know, like you said, if you're honest, if your friends know who you are, if there's some transparency there, you know, I have friends like that in times when I've been that friend. And the hope is that people will be like, girl, she must be going through something, you know, or she's busy, or, you know, and that's when you feel the security of friendship because you can completely show up as yourself. Flaws and all the inconsiderate or the per, you know, you got your friend group and it's like, well, Issa's not gonna be the one to call because she just doesn't do that. You know, I'm not a great, you know, I don't call on a regular basis, but I tend to organize my friends more. Like, I'm the one that's like, okay, let's think about this. Or, you know, everybody come visit me here. And that was because of eight years also. I mean, you, you know, it's hard. It was hard to reach me for, for eight years without a whole lot of goings on. In order for me to maintain my friendships, I had to be more deliberate.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

And over the years I've become the more deliberate one. And also because of who I am, I think people just assume I don't want to bother you. Yeah, same, you know, because I'm not going to bring these problems. I've had so many of my good friends who went through stuff and I'm like, you didn't tell me. I didn't want to bother you. And I. So that means I often have to bend over even more completely to check in. So people know that when things are tough, do not not call me.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Because I'm mad.

[Craig Robinson]

Because nothing.

[Michelle Obama]

Right. It's like now I'm mad at you for that that happened. I don't care that you going to years ago. Right. But you were gonna say something before I cut you off.

[Issa Rae]

No, no, no. That was great. I appreciate that. And I also appreciate. Now you see, she would have been mad when she said she wouldn't.

[Michelle Obama]

It wouldn't have blasted, you know, Capricorns. We get mad, but it doesn't, you know, you're mad.

[Craig Robinson]

You don't. Absolutely not.

[Issa Rae]

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[Craig Robinson]

Can I ask you a question about the Chair of Angst? Yes. Did they ask you questions or was it more of like a venting space like you're getting us?

[Michelle Obama]

Was it an inquiry?

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah, it was.

[Issa Rae]

It was all of the above because sometimes the person who was in the Chair of Angst just needed to vent and in the venting the other two would Ask questions to find out, okay, is this really what's going on? Or is there anything we can do or what predicated this? And it was a give and take. It wasn't just a venting session, but it was, at least for me, it was liberating to be able to just have somebody to talk to about things that, you know, that were deep and private, that I wasn't ready to share with the whole world.

[Craig Robinson]

That's dope. But y'all had to make a whole.

[Michelle Obama]

Construct with cigars and margaritas and whatnot.

[Craig Robinson]

That's how cigarettes, once you out there, share ex. No more.

[Issa Rae]

No more questions. No more questions.

[Craig Robinson]

No more questions, no more problems. That's it.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, but see, and that's the other thing you can't do with women or with me, your sister.

[Issa Rae]

We.

[Michelle Obama]

We don't let it go.

[Issa Rae]

They don't let it go.

[Michelle Obama]

You got a chair because now I'm calling you and going, okay, what happened at that.

[Craig Robinson]

What happened? Yeah.

[Issa Rae]

So not only do I have a sister, I have a wife. And. Which has helped me communicate, right? Because I say all the time, our relationship. Relationship with my wife and the relationship with my daughter, who is now 28. I'm a better communicator, not just with women, but in general, because I get it. I get it. There are times when my wife wants to talk to me and I don't want to talk, but I have to be intentional about. She needs this.

[Michelle Obama]

With my friends.

[Issa Rae]

If I need it, I will go get it. But with my friends, it's. We. We never get there like that.

[Craig Robinson]

So a friend has never disappointed you because you don't have expectations of them? No.

[Issa Rae]

Friends have disappointed. But I. It doesn't injure me as deeply. And if your next question is, do I approach him and say, hey, you really disappointed me? I have. And I think that's why we keep our friendship.

[Craig Robinson]

And have you had that happen to you with one of your friends where they've approached you and said, hey, this is. You didn't show up in this way, and I'm. I'm upset.

[Issa Rae]

I have not.

[Craig Robinson]

Have you. Have you.

[Issa Rae]

At the risk of sounding cocky, I have not.

[Craig Robinson]

Oh, cause you're a good. You're a good friend. I keep hitting this drop. Cause you're a good friend.

[Issa Rae]

I hope that I am.

[Craig Robinson]

You seem like you're a good friend.

[Issa Rae]

No, it is.

[Craig Robinson]

You have a sister. You have to be a good friend.

[Issa Rae]

But it's. It doesn't have to be deep friendship. It can be just below the surface.

[Craig Robinson]

But I Think you allow people to just be comfortable with you. And I think that is essential in a friendship. And you may not challenge them in a way, but if a friendship isn't serving you, will you just ignore it and keep it going? Like, keep them around. You'll never be like, hey, I kind of don't like hanging around. You kind of get on my nerves.

[Issa Rae]

Yeah. So this is a really good question. And I haven't thought about this because unlike my sister, I didn't make too many new friends as an adult, you know, after a certain period. I shouldn't say as an adult, sort of as I've gotten older. So my friends are my friends, and they're gonna be my friends and new people that I meet that I haven't known for a long time who are friends. The shift to the right, and they don't make the shift to the right. We just don't communicate as much.

[Michelle Obama]

I call that the slow ghost.

[Issa Rae]

She calls it the slow ghost.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. It's not enough to have a conversation with because, you know, do you really care? So you go through the emotional energy.

[Issa Rae]

You just sort of just let it.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, let it. Let it die naturally. Quiet death.

[Issa Rae]

Which brings me to another that you all didn't talk about, but it made me think about this, is that I don't mind being ghosted.

[Craig Robinson]

Me neither. I don't mind that if it didn't matter.

[Issa Rae]

If it didn't matter, it didn't matter. But let's say I get the slow ghost, right? I get the slow ghost. And then a year later, the guy texts me and say, hey, I'm gonna be in town. Wanna go get a drink? I'll be like, yeah, sure. And you all are laughing, but that is how we operate. That is how we operate. Just look at the guys in here, are all smiling, trying not to get in trouble.

[Michelle Obama]

Wait a minute. Women don't. Women don't do that.

[Craig Robinson]

No, I'm just like, girl, you gave me a reason. Thank you. No, you are done. I got too many people I mess with because there's nothing worse than like. Like having. Sometimes you just don't have time. And making a new friend who you're kind of not sure about. And then you have to, like, make plans together if the slow allows you to never speak to them again and never have to plan anything. And it's. It's fine.

[Issa Rae]

Ouch.

[Craig Robinson]

But even with your friends. I'm sorry, your friends that you grew up with, inevitably, you guys like you. You grow up, you become who you're supposed to be right. There are no friends that you've grown up with that you have, where you're just like, I've outgrown them mentally, or they, you know, don't necessarily. We don't vibe the same anymore. There's never been that. And that thought has never crossed your mind?

[Issa Rae]

The guys who, like, say, grammar school, people who were my friends, I'm still.

[Craig Robinson]

In touch with, and they've never. Since grammar school.

[Issa Rae]

Since. Since high school. First day of high school.

[Craig Robinson]

Okay, okay. But your friends that you hold now, your male friends, is that to say that you've never even fought?

[Issa Rae]

No, we fought. Yeah, but it's.

[Craig Robinson]

It's not an emotional fight.

[Michelle Obama]

There's no. I mean, I'm just like, I know his friends. It's like, they're just. There's not a lot going on.

[Issa Rae]

There's no emotional fight. You're talking about. I thought you were talking about, like, a fight, like.

[Michelle Obama]

No.

[Craig Robinson]

And that's how, like, guys, to me, y'all will be like. Like, y'all will physically fight and be like, well, he the alpha, I'm the beta. That's it. And then we're good for life.

[Issa Rae]

Let's go have a beer.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. And no. If I physically fight one of my female friends, it's over.

[Issa Rae]

Well, you all don't physically fight.

[Craig Robinson]

No, but in.

[Issa Rae]

But I get it. I get it.

[Craig Robinson]

But the emotional fights allow you to get closer or, you know, decide this isn't the right thing.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, I just think it goes back to the level, you know? And again, this isn't true for everyone. But even just watching my brother, it's like, you know, your friends sort of hover around the surface, and it's real, meaningful friendships, but they. They're. They're. They're just not as deep as the friendships I see among women.

[Issa Rae]

Until there is a crisis, then we go deep.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's. It's true. People show up, go to the funeral, you know, all of that sort of stuff.

[Issa Rae]

You go straight to death, you know? But I.

[Michelle Obama]

Because that's what a crisis is for these superficial friendships. It's gotta be like a stingray.

[Issa Rae]

It could be something going on with their kids, or it could be a divorce, or it could be, you know, a car accident.

[Craig Robinson]

It could be something super dire, a.

[Issa Rae]

Crisis, but it's not.

[Michelle Obama]

And a crisis for women is just, like, every day.

[Craig Robinson]

Don't do us like that.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, Like, I get.

[Issa Rae]

Oh, man, I'm gonna get it when I get home.

[Michelle Obama]

An example, because my husband doesn't Fully understand it. And he's got great friends. Friends that he has since high school. I know his friends. Meaningful. But when I'm. When I. A girlfriend comes to visit, it's usually like, you gotta stay for two days because it's going to take us so.

[Craig Robinson]

Much time to catch up, to check up, right?

[Michelle Obama]

And we're not planning anything. We are going to sit right here and we will be here. Too many rules. I've got. No, but it's not even a rule. It's too many rules. This is kicking it, and this is what it's going to take.

[Issa Rae]

You got to stay for two days.

[Michelle Obama]

I'll have one of my good girlfriends over. Spending the night. Friends with Barack. Love all that. We sit on a couch, we trans. There's something in front of us. Tea crackers, move to wine, you know. But we get up at 10am and we start the check in.

[Craig Robinson]

Ah, that sounds beautiful.

[Michelle Obama]

Begins with, first of all, girl, how you, you know, tell me about you now? All right, now that's an hour. Just sort of emotionally, mentally checking in, right? Hour two is like, okay, what about work? And tell me about. Because we know all about it. Remember that HR person? You were let go. What happened with that girl?

[Craig Robinson]

She's still there.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, man, what does she do next? And then you gotta give an example of what she did. Now. Now it's lunchtime, right on. On day one. Now, Barack has come in, he's come out, and he's like, y'all still talking? He'll sit down for five minutes, be like, how are the boys? And then he gets up in the place.

[Craig Robinson]

You contributed nothing. You just interrupted the time, you know?

[Michelle Obama]

And then it. And it's 3:00, and he's like, y'all still here? And it's like, we're just now getting on the kids. And with one girlfriend, we each have two kids. That's four kids. That's like an hour per kid.

[Craig Robinson]

Oh, my gosh. I haven't even gotten to that phase yet. Oh, my God. Oh, my.

[Michelle Obama]

48 hours. It's 48 hours because each kid has, you know, we know the issues and the things we've, you know, now we're at dinner on day one, right? So this is what I'm saying. And my husband is like, how. What are you all talking about all day? And it's like, we're not. We're just scratching the surface.

[Craig Robinson]

And do you know that it's so. Oh, my. It feels so good. After they leave, it's just like, there's no better feeling than, like, I just got. Ugh. I reconnected with my girl. She knows everything I've been holding. I was saving this story for her because only she would understand it. Like, I can't tell. Like, there's friendship even in my groups. There's my friends who, if I wanna be mad at someone and if I want to not know that I'm wrong, I go to her. Cause she's never gonna. She's never gonna tell me I'm wrong. It's always, yeah, girl, okay, who we.

[Michelle Obama]

Right?

[Craig Robinson]

She's, you know, like, yeah, I need to. And then there's a friend that I go to where I'm just like, I need to know the truth.

[Issa Rae]

Yes.

[Craig Robinson]

I need to know the truth. I need to know that I'm not it. And they're going to give it to me straight. And then there's just the loyal friend who's just, like, going to listen. And I could grab. But everybody has a function in some way, and they're just. It's just. It's cathartic. It's so. It's so beautiful. And that's why I'm just in the flip side.

[Michelle Obama]

My husband, right, because he golfs. And golfing takes as long as the first session of our. You know, it takes five hours to golf. He'll golf with his buddies, come back and be like, how's X? He's good. He's like, what'd y'all talk about? Nothing. And I was like, I will have heard, like. Like, somebody has cancer. And I was like, how is X? Did you hear that they had cancer? He's like, no, we didn't talk about that. And I'm just like, well, what?

[Craig Robinson]

You were golfing all day and it never came up.

[Michelle Obama]

And it never came up. You never asked about our godson, for example. You're with his father. How is he? I don't know. I think he's good. It's like, what were you all doing? Sitting in a cart, talking about, you know? And I'm like, literally nothing. No information. And that's the difference because you be with each other all day, looking directly away from each other at a ball, right? Whereas when I'm with my friends, we are turned. We are physically turned in towards one another. Feet off, comfort. Sometimes we're touching, you know, their tears. It's like. And that can go on for hours. And once you do that, then your feelings are gonna be hurt when you break up or somebody's gonna get mad. I mean, with that level of kind of intimacy. Intimacy.

[Issa Rae]

I maintain.

[Michelle Obama]

Yes.

[Issa Rae]

That the chair of angst with me, Jimmy, and Victor is exactly the same thing. It just doesn't take as long.

[Michelle Obama]

Okay. I don't know how you get anything out of sitting in a chair for dinner.

[Craig Robinson]

Cause you're also not. It also has to be around a crisis. Right.

[Issa Rae]

You know, it does. It. It. It takes a crisis to get it going.

[Craig Robinson]

This is also why women live longer, I think, than men. Because we're getting a lot of that.

[Michelle Obama]

Right.

[Craig Robinson]

And not to take it there, but.

[Issa Rae]

In here, we do.

[Michelle Obama]

Like, the crisis would require an emergency session.

[Craig Robinson]

Oh, my God.

[Michelle Obama]

Like, somebody's on a train.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. Flying.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, there's. There's movement, and you're not gonna deal with the crisis. Yeah. It's like, we're coming. We're coming. It's a crisis.

[Craig Robinson]

My friend's dog died. We were all there at the house bringing her favorite snack. Like, this is. Took off work is a script that.

[Issa Rae]

Is something that you could write on television.

[Craig Robinson]

Playing and doing a text. Like, you know, she not gonna be good. Like, she's. She doesn't need this right now, you know?

[Michelle Obama]

Right, Right.

[Issa Rae]

You know what's so horrible about that? Is guys would be like, damn.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Issa Rae]

That's the crazy.

[Michelle Obama]

Not a crisis. Obviously not a crisis. Sorry.

[Craig Robinson]

Send a dog.

[Michelle Obama]

I didn't know you had a dog. Yeah. What.

[Craig Robinson]

Where'd you get a dog?

[Issa Rae]

Okay, we are bad. That is.

[Michelle Obama]

One of my friends.

[Craig Robinson]

Let's talk about how guys don't know how to express a cat. Guys in text don't know how to express emotions and will use emojis, like, the wrong. Like, ah, y'all. I lost my aunt. Dang. Fire emoji. Ghost emoji.

[Michelle Obama]

Shit. That's not what those feelings are. You don't even understand the emoji feelings. You're so disconnected from feelings, I don't.

[Craig Robinson]

Know what they are. But I'm six trying to give you.

[Michelle Obama]

Something, so I don't know. But for your generation of emotions, you don't even know what fire is for. So why do we have emotion? OGs. They. They're literal.

[Craig Robinson]

It's like, hot dog, hot dog.

[Michelle Obama]

I'm hungry.

[Issa Rae]

I want lunch. Fire is like, I don't want Eva to think we are not taking her issues serious.

[Craig Robinson]

Okay.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, I forgot about Eva. Never.

[Issa Rae]

No, we almost.

[Craig Robinson]

She lost the friend.

[Issa Rae]

Well, is it possible to set boundaries for sure in a friendship that's unbalanced?

[Craig Robinson]

That's how I'm like, you have to be honest about, like, hey, girl. Like, I'm I have a lot on my plate and I'm. That's hard to say.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

Because I was. Yeah, I was gonna say, like, I just wanna be a dinner friend. And I guess in those situations where I've been confronted about, like, hey. Cause I have been. I feel like I give you more energy than I have just been. Like, I blamed it on work, I've blamed it on. I'm busy. But I haven't said, I don't wanna devote the time to this. Saying that I have work is the excuse and they can choose to pleasantly ghost me and I wouldn't be as affected. The fact that Eva is actually affected by this is what's confusing me. Because you didn't dedicate the energy to want to be her friend. And I'd imagine that you do have a set of friends that are higher tier friends that do get your time and energy, that you do consider those people or you're just a loner and don't know how to make friends. And that's a whole different situation. But I'm confused by the loss because you had this person who cared about you, invested in you. That, that is kind of selfish if you didn't feel the same way about them.

[Michelle Obama]

So, yeah, it's fair to set boundaries. But I think it starts with knowing, well, who do you want to be? How do you want to show up? You know, and the honesty first has to be within yourself. You know, I mean, I think, think both of us, probably as Capricorns, we're probably a little more honest about who we are, what we want. And, you know, and even though women talk a lot, sometimes we don't, you know, we don't spend that time because we're pouring that energy out. Like, I'm, I'm. I understand you before I understand me.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes.

[Michelle Obama]

And it's, that's the nature of, you know, a lot of times women are giving or, you know, without opening themselves up, because that's hard, you know. And maybe what I would say to Eva is maybe it's time for her to, just as she's asking, do some personal reflection about what does she want in friendship and how does she want to show up? How does she want to show up? Because if she's a loner and is somebody who doesn't want high maintenance friendships, she's at the age where it's okay for her to own that about herself.

[Craig Robinson]

And make some friends with some guys.

[Michelle Obama]

Right. Or, you know, be okay, then understand that there will be times that she will get that response from friends. It's like, I thought we were this, and we're not. You hurt my feelings, and it's over, right? And not take it to heart if that's the kind of friend you are, because that's where you are in life. But if you don't want that to happen again, if that really does bother you, then you gotta take stock about how you wanna. How you need to show up for people.

[Issa Rae]

And what's an example of that showing up is that just. I hear communication.

[Michelle Obama]

I get that. But understanding who your friend is and what they need, okay? Like, you know, being a little more considerate about the other person and what they need. And, you know, just like you do with a loved one, you have to do in any relationship, sometimes you do what they need, even if it's not what you need. And with friends, you don't have to do it every day like you do for your partner, your life partner. But you do have to be aware, you know, and show up every now and then. And it sounds like Eva may not have shown up at all for this friend. And so you gotta. You know, you're gonna have to give people what they need at some point to get what you need. It's like friendship language. What's your friend's friendship language? Is it time? Is it crisis management? Is it, you know, brutal honesty?

[Issa Rae]

Is it acts of service?

[Michelle Obama]

Is it brutal honesty? Is it emotional vulnerability? I would say that that's my friendship language. I value people's honest emotional vulnerability. That means a lot to me.

[Craig Robinson]

But even hearing you say this, there's. You also have to have the recognition that maybe you're also not compatible. Because some of it, Some. Some friendships, the most beautiful friendships, are just instinctive. They're instinctual. Like you.

[Michelle Obama]

You don't have to.

[Craig Robinson]

You don't have to try. You. You are the end to the Yang. You're. You fit in like puzzle pieces. And then they're. They're. You know, when there are missteps, you can talk about them comfortably without necessarily feeling like you're. You're offending. And this feels like very much like Eva had to try too hard to.

[Michelle Obama]

Be something she wasn't, to be something.

[Craig Robinson]

That she wanted and that she didn't really want. And so I think considering that, and that goes back to being honest with yourself. But the best friendships I have, you haven't had to do all that. And the worst friendships I've had that have. I've silently ghosted her. That have silently ghosted me, it was Hard to manage. Like, there were just. There was always something, and it felt uncomfortable. So, yeah, being honest with yourself about that is. Is crucial.

[Michelle Obama]

And how old is Eva again?

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah, that. I was wondering that too.

[Natalie]

32.

[Michelle Obama]

32.

[Issa Rae]

Oh, yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

This is when people start falling off.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

Your 30s is like when it whittles down to who's gonna be there. And does she have kids?

[Natalie]

No.

[Michelle Obama]

And it's gonna whittle even more, you know, if she chooses to partner and have kids, it changes. And I mean, I think that's also what I would say to. It's like, this is life.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, and like she said in her letter, friends aren't family. You know, and sometimes that's good and sometimes it's not. You know, friends will. There are seasons for friends, and who knows? In their 40s or 50s, they may.

[Issa Rae]

Reconnect, you know, so this is perfect because I'm thinking back to Eva. One of the things I would like Eva to take away from this is that being in an unbalanced relationship doesn't mean it has to end the relationship if you want it to be another way based. I'm learning from you all, if I'm in an unbalanced relationship and I'm the one feeling unbalanced, I gotta go to the person and say, hey, look, this is what I want out of a relationship. And if they can't provide it, then we gotta think about it ending well.

[Michelle Obama]

And that's what her friend essentially did.

[Craig Robinson]

You know, but her friend did it during the breakup. I'm curious if the friend ever came to her and was like, hey, beforehand. I feel like this is what I need from a relationship. I feel like this is unbalanced. It seems like she was like, this is the last straw. Like, my relative died. You didn't show up. This has been unbalanced. And maybe it became clear to her in that moment, which I think she said. She said.

[Natalie]

Right?

[Michelle Obama]

She did.

[Craig Robinson]

All of a sudden, you ain't shit.

[Michelle Obama]

You're right.

[Craig Robinson]

I realized that. And that's just. That's the way the cookie crumbles. I wonder if Eva also fought for it.

[Michelle Obama]

Doesn't. It sounds like she's in contemplation about it, about fighting for it or letting it go. It sounds. It feels like she's let it go. It feels like she didn't fight for it. But I don't think we have that.

[Craig Robinson]

Don't you guys do follow, you know, That's. I need to know.

[Issa Rae]

Well, let's. Let's figure out a couple Three things that we can tell Eva, and then maybe we could figure out a follow up with her.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, one of the things I think you mentioned it is if you have this other set of friends holding court and just being like, hey, guys, how don't I am? I take it to your counsel. Yeah, take it to your counsel. What are the ways that I don't show up? Have I been a bad friend and, like, use that to become a better friend?

[Michelle Obama]

I completely agree with that. And also, you know, be easy on yourself. You're 32. This is how it goes. You know, people come, people go. You know, even hurts can be healed because, you know, who knows where you'll be when you're 50? You know, life is long and friendships have ebbs and flows. And in the meantime, what I would tell her is use this as an opportunity, since you're bothered by it, to figure out how you can grow.

[Craig Robinson]

And one thing that I've done before, write a letter with no expectation of a response. If you really do care about how your actions impacted this person, write a letter of apology. Say where you're coming from and let that person know, hey, I just wanted to get this off my chest. This is the way that you. I really valued you. I'm sorry I didn't show up for you in this way. The door is still open to be friends if you'll walk through it again. But feel free not to respond. I just wanted to get this off. Like, if you really feel badly about it, write her a letter, but don't expect a response.

[Michelle Obama]

I like that.

[Issa Rae]

I like that, too. But you know what I like even more is when Issa said, just get a guy friend.

[Craig Robinson]

Honestly, you want a low maintenance relationship?

[Issa Rae]

You want a low maintenance relationship, Get a guy friend.

[Craig Robinson]

Get a guy friend.

[Michelle Obama]

Maintenance. And don't worry, you don't have to even know if he has a dog.

[Issa Rae]

Eva, we really care about you.

[Craig Robinson]

No, for real.

[Michelle Obama]

You'll be good girl. You'll be all right. This is how the. As you said, Issa, the cookie crumbles. Life is like this. But this has been fun.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. This is so fun. What's the next letter?

[Issa Rae]

Thank you so.

[Craig Robinson]

Oh, yeah.

[Issa Rae]

Come on, let's go. Thank you so much.

[Craig Robinson]

Thank you, guys.