“Success” Looks Different for Every Family with Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach

Summary

Podcast Summary: “Success” Looks Different for Every Family

Podcast Title: IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson
Episode: “Success” Looks Different for Every Family with Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach
Release Date: May 14, 2025
Host/Authors: Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson
Guests: Glennon Doyle (Author of Untamed) and Abby Wambach (Two-Time Olympic Gold Medalist)

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Introduction

In this heartfelt episode of IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson, the hosts welcome Glennon Doyle, renowned author of Untamed, and Abby Wambach, celebrated Olympic soccer champion and activist. The discussion centers around a listener's question about balancing family stability with career opportunities amidst financial constraints and geographic choices.

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Listener's Dilemma: Shira's Question

Shira, a 43-year-old mother, grapples with whether to stay in rural Maine or move back to New York City. She highlights challenges such as:

• Isolation: Lack of a strong support network in Maine.
• Career Opportunities: Limited prospects for her handbag business and her husband’s film editing career outside NYC.
• Financial Strain: High cost of living in NYC versus more affordable rural areas.
• Childcare Concerns: Difficulty finding affordable and reliable childcare outside major cities.

Quote:

Michelle Obama [07:15]: "It's a great question because I know there are a lot of people who are grappling with this."

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Defining Success for the Family

The conversation delves into what success means for different families, emphasizing that there is no one-size-fits-all answer. The guests share personal experiences and offer advice on:

• Flexibility and Resilience: Understanding that success evolves as children grow and circumstances change.
• Community Building: The importance of creating a support network, whether through friends, extended family, or community groups.
• Prioritizing Quality of Life: Balancing career ambitions with family well-being to avoid being "house poor" and ensuring financial stability.

Quote:

Abby Wambach [57:57]: "What does success mean for this little family? Like, not feeling scarcity, having a cushion, then you start to make different decisions."

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Parenting Amidst Change

Michelle and Barack Obama share their experiences with parenting during significant life changes, such as moving for the presidency. Key insights include:

• Children’s Resilience: Kids often adapt better than parents expect.
  Barack Obama [19:24]: "They turned out okay, because kids are way more resilient, I think, than we give them credit for."

• Avoiding Guilt-Based Parenting: Making decisions without imposing parental guilt ensures healthier relationships.
  Barack Obama [32:11]: "Don't parent out of guilt. It’s not moving them. It’s not that they can’t see their grandmother... Kids respond to their situations based on how you act."

• Encouraging Independence: Allowing children to experience minor failures builds their competence and confidence.
  Barack Obama [63:28]: "They need to know you can bump your head and you can figure it out."

Quote:

Glennon Doyle [09:04]: "When we have the conversations around families, children...nice to feel as though that there is some sort of structure in place in our lives, but there just isn't."

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Building and Maintaining Community

The importance of intentional community-building is a recurring theme. Michelle Obama emphasizes:

• Intentional Connections: Actively reaching out to other parents and neighbors to foster a supportive network.
  Michelle Obama [44:37]: "From that, each phase of my life...I built this community of moms and other friends and people that I could call."

• Leveraging Community for Support: Whether in Chicago, the White House, or elsewhere, having a reliable community provides stability for both parents and children.

Quote:

Michelle Obama [44:30]: "You always have to be prepared to pivot and not be afraid to pivot."

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Practical Takeaways for Shira

The guests offer actionable advice for Shira and others in similar situations:

1. Define Personal Success:
   Glennon Doyle [67:59]: "Write it down, figure out what is at the bottom line, what the cost is gonna be..."

2. Prioritize Family Needs:
   Barack Obama [68:44]: "Don't be afraid to be guided by what the adults need."

3. Build a Support Network:
   Abby Wambach [59:49]: "I want there to be an interdependence...We are each other's community."

4. Balance Career and Family:
   Michelle Obama [50:34]: "They have a natural group to have an affinity with, and there's nothing better."

Quote:

Abby Wambach [49:11]: "What is success? Really talking to each other about, what does a successful family look like?"

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Conclusion: Embracing Fluidity and Love

The episode concludes with a reaffirmation that success and stability are personal and fluid concepts. Emphasizing love, intentionality, and adaptability ensures that families can navigate changes without compromising their well-being.

Final Quote:

Michelle Obama [72:33]: "So I really appreciate that on Shira's behalf, thank you for that."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Michelle Obama [07:15]: "It's a great question because I know there are a lot of people who are grappling with this."
• Abby Wambach [57:57]: "What does success mean for this little family? Like, not feeling scarcity, having a cushion, then you start to make different decisions."
• Barack Obama [19:24]: "They turned out okay, because kids are way more resilient, I think, than we give them credit for."
• Glennon Doyle [09:04]: "When we have the conversations around families, children...nice to feel as though that there is some sort of structure in place in our lives, but there just isn't."
• Abby Wambach [59:49]: "I want there to be an interdependence...We are each other's community."
• Michelle Obama [72:33]: "So I really appreciate that on Shira's behalf, thank you for that."

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This episode of IMO provides invaluable insights into navigating the complexities of defining success within the family unit, balancing career aspirations with personal well-being, and the enduring importance of community support. Whether you're facing geographic relocations or seeking to redefine what success means for your family, the collective wisdom of Michelle Obama, Craig Robinson, Glennon Doyle, and Abby Wambach offers guidance grounded in love, resilience, and intentional living.

Transcript

[Michelle Obama]

Would we be changing our answer if it wasn't New York?

[Barack Obama]

Well, I. I'm biased. I think New York is.

[Craig Robinson]

That's why I was leaning over here.

[Barack Obama]

I don't. You know, no offense to New Yorkers, but, man. Yeah, you know, I mean, I just. When I'm in New York and I see people with strollers and little kids, I just think it's dirty down there. Pick em up, pick em up. Away from the dir. This episode is brought to you by Rivian and Pine Sol.

[Michelle Obama]

I am so excited to be here.

[Barack Obama]

So very excited. It's good to see you.

[Michelle Obama]

It's good to be seen.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah. Yeah. What's been going on with you?

[Michelle Obama]

Well, got a high schooler again.

[Barack Obama]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Round two. Round two.

[Michelle Obama]

Austin's going into high school.

[Barack Obama]

Is he going to be playing basketball?

[Michelle Obama]

He's properly worried about making junior varsity, which is good because most kids who are freshmen think they should be playing in the NBA, and he doesn't feel that way, so I'm happy about that. But he is. He's got just enough confidence, but that's because he puts in the work. You know, Austin's a worker. Aaron just shows up game.

[Barack Obama]

Well, your two are pretty exceptional.

[Michelle Obama]

I appreciate you saying that. And speaking of exceptional, Malia and Sasha.

[Barack Obama]

At the wedding, your oldest wedding. Yeah, they came to the wedding. We did not.

[Michelle Obama]

It was so nice having them around. And, you know, we stayed in an Airbnb. They stayed at a hotel, but because we had the Airbnb and plenty of room, they were at our place almost entirely the whole time. So it was really fun for me. All the kids, all the cousins to hang out together.

[Barack Obama]

They had great cousin time. I mean, you know, the four of them together, plus the two little ones, there's nothing like it.

[Michelle Obama]

And the two little ones think that they are in their 20s with the Malia and Sasha with the big crew kids. And, you know, I had to tell them, just settle down.

[Barack Obama]

Right, right. Well, I'm excited for the kids next journey. This is gonna be a big year, but I think they're gonna do okay.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Well, I'm gonna segue to our question. We have a great question from one of our listeners talking about family and what to do, where to live and kind of the stuff that we've had to deal with in our family on a couple of different occasions. But we have a great. I'm so excited for you, too.

[Barack Obama]

I know we've got some good guests to help.

[Michelle Obama]

We have some good guests to help with with this question. First off, we've got Glennon Doyle, who's the author of number one New York Times bestseller, Untamed, which has sold more than 3 million copies. And I'm reading this to you.

[Craig Robinson]

You know these people.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

And she's joined by her partner, Abby Wambach, who's a two time Olympic gold medalist. Now you can see why I'm holding back on the sports.

[Barack Obama]

Settle down, settle down.

[Michelle Obama]

FIFA World cup champion and six time winner of the US Soccer Athlete of the Year award. And I'm just gonna stop right there. You know how hard it is to be a Athlete of the year one time?

[Barack Obama]

I don't know. Cause I've never been Athlete of the year, so I assume it's big. That's a rare thing.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, it is rare. It is rare. She's also an activist for equality and inclusion and the author of a number one New York Times bestseller, Imagine that powerhouse couple. You know something about that? Her book is entitled Wolf Pack, and together, Glennon and Abby co host the beloved chart topping We Can Do Hard Things podcast. Welcome, Glennon and Abby, come on down. Yay.

[Barack Obama]

It's so good to see you guys.

[Michelle Obama]

Guys, have a seat.

[Barack Obama]

Welcome, welcome, welcome. Thank you guys for being here. I mean, Craig, he doesn't really know how amazing. Really amazing. You guys are your best.

[Craig Robinson]

I did my homework.

[Barack Obama]

No, you don't know. Like, I know, but I had the pleasure of talking to you guys sadly on Zoom, and it was amazing. And I was like, right after our Zoom conversation, I was like, I want to be with them. So here we are.

[Glennon Doyle]

Here we are.

[Barack Obama]

You know, got my big brother here, but we're doing some talking about things, sharing ideas, and you two were at the top of my list. So I am so grateful that you have come to Martha's Vineyard, taken time off of your busy schedules, and I'm glad that we're in the same room because it really is a different kind of thing.

[Glennon Doyle]

So.

[Barack Obama]

So thank you. Thank you both.

[Glennon Doyle]

Thank you for having us.

[Abby Wambach]

This is such an honor.

[Glennon Doyle]

Really an honor. Really special. And I think it's so special you're choosing to do this with my brother.

[Barack Obama]

We'll see how long it lasts.

[Glennon Doyle]

How's it going so far? Is it going okay?

[Michelle Obama]

She's looking at the side of my head, wondering, what is he talking about?

[Barack Obama]

But it is fun. This is our first joint project, really. I mean, ever in our lives that it's been just you and me.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

You know, but we're glad to have you guys here. We've got a really fun, not fun but you know, a question that is kind of familiar to all of us. We've all sort of dealt with this as parents and, you know, good natured people trying to figure out what's the best thing to do for family and kids.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. And we've got a question from a listener named Shira. Let's take a listen.

[Shira]

Hi Michelle and Craig. My name is shira and I'm 43 years old. My husband and I have lived in New York City for many years, but after having two children in the last five years, we decided to move to rural Maine for more space and more affordable living. However, now that we've been here for a couple of years, it no longer seems like the right choice. We're isolated from a large network of friends or any family and there aren't as many career opportunities for our professions. I have my own handbag company and my husband is a film editor. On one hand, moving back to New York City doesn't feel like a long term solution. I want to provide an anchored home base for my children and the city doesn't really feel sustainable, especially without affordable childcare. On the other hand, there isn't really any other city that offers a surefire support system for our kids care. Our parents are in Massachusetts and California and they're aging. And our siblings families are just too busy. And there still isn't a better place for our joint careers other than New York. Given that there isn't one perfect city or one obvious reasons to move anywhere, what should we prioritize when deciding when we have limited financial resources to draw from, but life is too expensive in the city where we can make the most money? What guiding principles should we use when deciding where to set up our family for the greatest stability and success? Thanks, Shira.

[Michelle Obama]

Okay, so a lot of meat on the bones here.

[Barack Obama]

A lot of meat. But dang, this is a great question because I feel like I talk about this all the time. Not so much in my personal life, but we have young staff and many of them are starting to marry and build their families. And this is something that everyone is grappling with, especially in this day and age where people are so transient, you know, and there's so many options and opportunities. I mean, gone were the days when you grew up in the neighborhood that you were raised in, bought a house down the street from your mom, went to the school around the corner, and spent your life in one neighborhood. We're now all over the place. And so what does that mean for families and how do you make decisions? I Mean, I literally talk about this a couple of times a month with young. Young people who are trying to figure out how to build a life. So it's one of the reasons why I was excited about this. Cause I know there are a lot of people who are grappling with this. But Barack and I have talked about this because he sent us an article. It talked about how unusual the concept of the nuclear family is. I don't know if you guys read that article, but it's like that is a concept. The concept of two parents and children building their lives together is a relatively new concept to this generation. That it isn't really how we were designed to be, because we're kind of pack animals. We live in community in ways that I think are more foreign to couples now because a lot of young couples are thinking about, how do I make it on my own. I moved away. I don't have support.

[Abby Wambach]

And.

[Barack Obama]

And so now I'm trying to do all this stuff, have a family, find childcare. And everybody is trying to do this alone. And that's just a recent occurrence. So I wonder whether we've sort of lost our direction in terms of what we should be looking for. But I'd be interested in how you guys have thought about it.

[Glennon Doyle]

I mean, it's interesting. Cause this question, whether we've admitted it or not, has kind of been swirling around our family from the beginning of time, even before I met Glennon. Do you wanna tell the story of Chase and the plants?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. So we have. Our oldest is now in college, but became in high school obsessed with plants. So his whole room was. There was 30 plants in there. We called them our grand plants. It was exhausting. I didn't ever. I always had to be on guard when he had a sleepover. And.

[Barack Obama]

Well, when did he. How did he get into plants? That's very. We don't really know.

[Abby Wambach]

He's an interesting kid. Yeah. But just covering just a g. And there was this one plant that.

[Glennon Doyle]

Fifty plants.

[Abby Wambach]

The vines were all the way across the wall. And we had, like, tacks guiding the. So at one point, I said, you know, what's the deal? Where does this come from? And especially this one with the wall. And he said, I think I just really like to be able to see the passage of time and roots because we've moved so many times that I don't have that.

[Barack Obama]

Wow.

[Michelle Obama]

Ooh, shanky.

[Barack Obama]

Twist.

[Abby Wambach]

Pull out has not stopped. That was three or four years ago. And that has been.

[Barack Obama]

We did.

[Abby Wambach]

We moved all the time. And we moved for Money reasons. I was teaching and we couldn't afford our area. Then we moved close to my parents for the support. Then we felt like a lot of people have this experience where you love your parents and you think they're wonderful, and you also kind of revert to a version of yourself when you're around your parents that you don't want to be the version of yourself that's raising your kids.

[Barack Obama]

Right, right.

[Abby Wambach]

So I moved away from there and then seven or eight moves, and now we're in a situation where our kids don't. You know, our kid comes home from college, but it's not home. Yeah, it's a nice place.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

But his friends aren't there. So I just love that they're thinking about this, because I think what happened to me, I. Dad did a little of the Goldilocks situation.

[Barack Obama]

This place is too.

[Abby Wambach]

This not enough that.

[Barack Obama]

Right, right.

[Abby Wambach]

But I think I just ran out of time. I think I just kept thinking, I'm gonna find the place. And then. So now they have a lot of wings, but they don't have the roots.

[Barack Obama]

The roots, yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, yeah. So I don't know. It's just something we think about all the time right now. Like, what do you need in a place? And I like that she said there's nowhere perfect.

[Glennon Doyle]

Because there is nowhere perfect when the kids are younger. You're a different kind of person and a parent than when they're a little bit older, getting into their teenage years and becoming young adults. And so their needs change. And we've been talking a lot about this because we're getting to the point where our youngest is about to go to college empty nesters. And we're wondering, oh, are we building a life so that they keep coming back to, or are we building a life that we want to live in? And I think it's probably going to be a mixture of both. But the truth is, they're not going to come back very often as time continues to go on. So we have to figure out a world in which we want to live in with each other, that maybe when they pop in, it's good. This is such an interesting question. Because there's work involved. Work versus family, or can you do the both?

[Michelle Obama]

And I think there is a level to the work part that we are not talking about, because gone are the days when you can get a job and end up somewhere for 30 years and get the gold watch and the retirement party at the end. What I always feel like is we're training our kids to not Be so sedentary where they are. Oh, my gosh. I just got let go from a job and I can't operate.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Michelle Obama]

Cause that's gonna be more the rule than the exception.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Michelle Obama]

I get that feeling because being a coach, we've had to move. Every time there's a job opportunity or a firing, you have to move. And I always put it off as, oh, this is good for the kids.

[Abby Wambach]

I do, too.

[Michelle Obama]

But it's not necessarily always that way. It may be. I know it's good for the family, but it may not be good for the kids. And it begs the question is how important is community for these young people?

[Barack Obama]

Yeah. The biggest worry that I had when Barack was elected, it wasn't the difficulty of the job. It wasn't the strain or the hardship or the. The threats or all the things you might imagine. I worried about my girls. I worried about moving them out of what was the only community and home they had ever known, where my brother was down the street, and my mom was picking them up from school. I mean, we had a really wonderful life in Chicago. And I thought, I'm gonna do the worst thing to these kids. And they were 7 and 10, second grade and fifth grade. I'm going to pluck them out in the middle of the school year, mind you, because the presidency doesn't work for families. You know, it's like all the timing of it is really stupid. So while we're transitioning, you know, trying to hire staff and come up with the initiatives, and Barack is, you know, building his cabinet, I'm thinking, I gotta get these kids in a school where they're not gonna just be any kids. They're gonna be kids with Secret Service. You know, I just couldn't wrap my arms around how to make this feel good for them. But the long story short is that they did way better than I thought. I mean, they transitioned better than I was transitioning.

[Michelle Obama]

So this summer, we had a wonderful occasion happen in our family. It was our eldest son's wedding. The resort we stayed at had about 500 homes, and we were able to Airbnb one of the homes there. And it was a guest favorite home. And what that is, is that's one of a collection of 2 million homes that are the most loved in the Airbnb collection, based on ratings, reviews, and reliability. And our son, yes, the one who is getting married, wanted to make a cake as a tribute to my mom, his grandma, who had just passed away. And I get choked up when I Think about it, the fact that he wanted to do that, well, not only did he want to make it, he wanted his little brothers, who are 14 and 12, to help him make it. And our daughter, who's 28, was sort of supervising the whole thing. And we're sitting there watching, all I could see was disaster happening. And the cake turned out beautifully. Our son Avery wanted it to be at the reception. So we get to the reception where there's a table of desserts, these beautiful, well catered desserts, and in the middle are two gigantic red velvet cakes that look like a 12 year old made em. There was icing everywhere, there was coconut, not quite on each piece. But the good news was that every single piece of that cake was gone. And I'm here to tell you, it was a delicious cake and a real tribute to my mom. It turned out to be a wonderful opportunity for all of us to be together, share some time together and celebrate our son's wedding.

[Craig Robinson]

This episode of IMO is brought to you by Theraflu. Hey, it's Craig Robinson here. And let me tell you, being sick is no joke. But you know what's even tougher? Feeling like you can't take the time to rest and recover because you've got bills to pay or a job to keep. You know, being a coach, even though I was afforded paid sick time, it was the type of job that you really try and muscle through for your team. And I have done that. It made me realize, though, that it is tough for folks who don't have the benefit of paid sick time. It's not only tough on the individual and their families, it's also tough on your co workers. Maybe you, like so many Americans, have felt that stress too, wondering what your boss will think or if your paycheck will take a hit. That's why I'm proud to talk about what Theraflu is doing with their Right to Rest and Recover campaign. For the past four years, they've been championing the right to rest to paid six time for everyone. I love that Theraflu is making this a priority. Learn more or help someone apply for the [e-mail] right to recover.

[Barack Obama]

And it was interesting because Barack wasn't worried about it because he was more of a transient kid. You know, his mom was an anthropologist and traveled the world. And, you know, he was born and raised in Hawaii, but spent time in Indonesia. His mom was in, she wasn't there. He didn't know his father. He grew up with more instability in that sense. And Thought moving is not a big deal. You know, there's 7 and 10. We didn't move at all. My mother, when she left the White House, she moved back into the home that we grew up in. So that's how sort of steady and stable and secure we were. And I was terrified that this was gonna ruin them.

[Michelle Obama]

You were?

[Barack Obama]

I really could barely focus until. It wasn't until I got the final. You know, when the kids get invited to their first playdate and it feels like a real friend. And, you know, that wasn't until March, where I felt like, okay, I can breathe. I mean, forget about everything else that was happening and the attacks and all the politics, knowing that they were settled and were gonna be okay. That was the biggest relief that I had. But I say all that to say that they turned out okay, because kids are way more resilient, I think, than we give them credit for. And even if your father is President of the United States and you live in the strange museum and you have men with guns following you all the time, if you're grounded, you know, if you have that place of assurance somewhere, then that kind of gets you through. And strangely, that has me arguing to Shira that, as you were saying, Abby, figure out the life you need to live. You know, because kids, they're gonna be gone, and these years are just a blip on the screen in their lives, assuming that they're young and they do better than you expect. If you're okay with it.

[Abby Wambach]

If you're okay. If you're okay. Yeah. Because the stability. The stability, the home that our kids have always had is us. Right. That is the guiding principle, is, I see you. I'm letting you reveal yourself forever, and I'm here. And that's not geographical. Right.

[Barack Obama]

Right.

[Abby Wambach]

But I do think sometimes when I think back and I don't beat myself up about it, I did the best I could, but I. Right when I was freshly sober, I was just growing up. I was growing up, and could I do it over again? I would have found a way, I think, to been doing work on myself as I was going along. I think that's what I would say to a new parent. I don't know what the answer is geographically, but I think if I had had some sort of accountability partner. I know that nobody can afford therapy. It's awful. But somebody who may have said to me, you seem to be moving every 18 months. It's like, is it possible there's something going on with you that. That feels like the life for yourself and being Right. With yourself, then flows out to the babies who are just looking at you. Really?

[Barack Obama]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

I also think that there's something inside of Shira's question that has a desire for structure. And when we have the conversations around families, children and all of the stuff that I know Shira knows about and a business that she's running and her husband and dealing with, is nice to feel as though that there is some sort of structure in place in our lives, but there just isn't.

[Barack Obama]

That's right. Like we're all just making it up, all of us.

[Glennon Doyle]

And because our parents did it in a vastly different way than most of us are doing it now, my parents are still in the same house that I was born in. For me, it's like I do, like, structure liberates me in a way to be held, to also be free within it. But also as these children grow up and as you grow up, like when we become adults, I think people just assume at 25 that we're now adults forever. Like, my 35 year old self was very different than my 25. My 45 year old self is gonna be very different than 35.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, we're all still growing up and.

[Glennon Doyle]

Trying to figure out because the world is so different and so be easy on yourself, Shira, and know that yes, it feels good to have some structure, but also there has to be a fluidity in the creating of these philosophies or priorities. When trying to decide what is most important here. Is it work, is it marriage, is it kids, is it, you know, support.

[Barack Obama]

Systems around you, this whole notion of growing up, it never happens. I was just having this conversation with Malia, our oldest, who is now. How old is Malia? She's 26 because she doesn't have insurance now. So we were rushing. She was like, obamacare, thanks. It's like, yeah, thank your dad, thank your dad. But she just turned 26. But it's so. So they live on their own. They live in la. She's writing, directing, doing her thing. And it is so funny when she goes, is this it? Am I an adult now? And it's. I'm like, you know, this is kind of what life is, you know, she's like, but I don't feel like I know anything more than I did three years ago. And it's like, yeah. And you're going to feel that way at 35 and 45. I mean, there isn't. When you reach adulthood and you go, I'm an adult, I'm 60 and I'm still waiting to grow up and wait.

[Michelle Obama]

Till you have a kid. You won't know what's going on again.

[Barack Obama]

That's right. Right.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's a whole new back to the beginning.

[Barack Obama]

But I think you make a good point about, you know, we've gotta be easier on ourselves in terms of how we define life. You know, in this question is this notion that there's a right way to do this and if you've lived it, you know, there isn't an answer. There isn't a one way that a family looks and that's not where the happiness comes from, that you're following some straight, narrow definition of what it means to be a family, whether it's geographically or economically or what have you. And that's a beautiful lesson for kids to learn early. You know, that home is wherever you make it. I mean, I think that's what I learned after our eight years in the White House, is that home is wherever we are.

[Michelle Obama]

Yes.

[Barack Obama]

You know, we will build the home from within. The external factors are just the nature of life and life changes and things happen.

[Michelle Obama]

It's really interesting that Mish says that it came to her later because I always felt that. And I'll tell you when I really felt it. I grew up on the south side, but I played basketball on the west side, which is a.

[Barack Obama]

In Chicago. It's like being in another.

[Michelle Obama]

It's like being in another country. It was a rougher area, as far as I could tell, but I came to find out that the guys from the west side thought the south side was harder.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, interesting.

[Michelle Obama]

But my dad worked a swing shift and when he could, he would come to practice. He was the only parent there. And when one of the kids from the other team said, man, you must really love it that your dad comes to practice in the meantime, I was hating the fact that he was the only dad there. And it was at that point that I realized that my family was special.

[Craig Robinson]

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[Michelle Obama]

It was at that point I realized wherever my family is, I could feel home.

[Abby Wambach]

And.

[Michelle Obama]

And when I think about Shira's question.

[Craig Robinson]

I would hope that she would get.

[Michelle Obama]

From us here today that it doesn't.

[Craig Robinson]

Matter where you live.

[Glennon Doyle]

Right?

[Abby Wambach]

It doesn't.

[Michelle Obama]

And the point I want to get to is that she, RA, and her husband have to be more empathetic to themselves. I think they're being hard on themselves and understanding that, hey, it's. It's up to you, too. And you may not know what the answers are. You may not know, but just love. Love those kids. Love your community. Get involved and have your parents come visit when they can come visit.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah, but I think people have to be careful not to parent out of guilt.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Barack Obama]

You know, and what I worry about, or I would caution Shira, is to when you do make that choice, whatever the choice is, don't parent them. Like you've hurt their feelings, you know, because sometimes people over, they overcompensate for choices that they feel bad about. That's the disservice to kids. It's not moving them. It's not that they can't see their grandmother or they, you know, live in a city or an apartment or don't have a yard. Kids respond to their situations based on how you act.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Barack Obama]

You know, I mean, Barack was president of the United States, and I could have felt sorry for my girls. Right. It's like, oh, my God, you know, look what we did to you. And I sort of went the opposite direction. It's like, this isn't about you. We just happen to live in this house. It's your father's job. Every father has a job, you know, so just get on with it. Yep. You got Secret Service. I'm not gonna poor thing you to death. It's odd, but it's what you have. And I think parents, we have to be careful not to push our guilt into our parenting because that can mess your kid up. Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

I got divorced when my middle was seven. She's seven.

[Glennon Doyle]

She was 10.

[Abby Wambach]

Your middle was 10.

[Glennon Doyle]

Whatever.

[Abby Wambach]

I never know how old I am.

[Barack Obama]

I'm like, that. I barely remembered how old Malia was today.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, my goodness. She's 18 now. Every once in a while, she'll be like. I'm like, your room. She's like, oh, it's just the divorce.

[Barack Obama]

You know what?

[Abby Wambach]

You just really do have to, like, it's hard and you can do it.

[Barack Obama]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

You do have to move them along.

[Glennon Doyle]

That just makes me think of. This might be a side tangent, but as a step parent, we call it bonus parent, I have often wondered, and Glennon's been such a wonderful leader in our family in this way and helping me learn how to parent because I became an insta mom like that. In fact, one of the times we were going through a drive through, and they wanted a cake pop, and I said, yes, this is great. I'm gonna get cake pops. And they said, can we have one? I'm like, yes. Okay. And so I ordered, and they said, how many? And I said, all of them.

[Abby Wambach]

And I said, oh, no, I will turn this car around. Nobody gets any cake.

[Barack Obama]

No cake pops.

[Glennon Doyle]

I was just trying to buy their love.

[Craig Robinson]

Wow. With all of them, you would buy.

[Barack Obama]

Them all the cake pops? No.

[Glennon Doyle]

So Glennon, luckily, she was there and she put the kibosh on that.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

But I don't know why I went down this road. I just.

[Barack Obama]

No, but it is about the parenting. And sometimes I did overkill on the parenting of trying to be normal to the extent that one time, Malia was on punishment for a semester. I mean, it was too much, right? It was a whole semester.

[Glennon Doyle]

I mean, did she do something? Like. Did she murder her?

[Barack Obama]

She's a teenager. No, she didn't murder a human. She did teenage stuff. But this is. You know, every time something happened and there are teenagers in the White House, I'm thinking, oh, my God, this is a sign that they're gonna be on the street. They're gonna be addicts, and this is really gonna mess them up. So I gotta put down the hammer, Right? And so the hammer over this incident was, you're grounded for a semester.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

And it didn't start out as a semester. First it was a month, and then I let her off, and then she didn't make curfew or did something like that. And, you know, I'd have these lectures and this guilt stuff. And, you know, my oldest, who's very sweet, she understood how to just look me in the eye and go, you're right, Mom. I don't know what got into me. You're so right. She'd just sucker me. And, like, I'm gonna think about that. And.

[Abby Wambach]

Ooh.

[Barack Obama]

You know, And I'm just like, this kid. Then I was like, you're just. You're punking me.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

You know, so now it's a semester yeah, yeah. You know, and Barack is trying to. He's trying to be the president, but also trying to be a good parent. And he's like, yeah, whatever your mom says. Although he's looking at me like a semester.

[Glennon Doyle]

I was like.

[Barack Obama]

I said a semester.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

And I cannot go back.

[Abby Wambach]

No, you can't.

[Barack Obama]

You know, so.

[Michelle Obama]

Wait. Wait a minute.

[Craig Robinson]

Stop.

[Michelle Obama]

Abby, what's the longest you've been on.

[Glennon Doyle]

Punishment in my life? Like when I was a kid.

[Michelle Obama]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

I mean, I was a pretty bad.

[Craig Robinson]

Kid, but the longest one term.

[Glennon Doyle]

I got grounded once, and it was one night. And.

[Michelle Obama]

How about you?

[Abby Wambach]

I was grounded for a quarter. We had quarters. I got a couple Cs, and that was it. But I used to get grounded outside. Cause all I want to do is sit inside and read.

[Glennon Doyle]

So grounded.

[Barack Obama]

I must go and be with people now.

[Abby Wambach]

You must people. And that was horrible punishment. I never got to see again.

[Michelle Obama]

How long have you been grounded?

[Barack Obama]

I was never really grounded. Grounded, But I never. I wasn't. Wasn't a bad kid.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

I wasn't doing anything.

[Abby Wambach]

Who.

[Michelle Obama]

Who never gets grounded.

[Abby Wambach]

What about you?

[Craig Robinson]

Who never gets grounded and then assigns.

[Barack Obama]

A semester, but somebody who is worried about the.

[Glennon Doyle]

The choices her husband is making.

[Barack Obama]

That's exactly.

[Glennon Doyle]

Royally messing up her children. I get it. Because, look, anytime our kids do a very, very minor, minor situation, I'm like, up. They can't ever leave the house again.

[Abby Wambach]

She thinks it's because you think it's your fault.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm like, oh, it's because you're only.

[Michelle Obama]

Grounded for a week or day or whatever it was.

[Glennon Doyle]

The world knows us. It's because of money.

[Barack Obama]

Whatever it is, you don't want them to be entitled. No. You know, you don't want to get any of those signs. That's exact now. So let me finish. I was wrong. That was too long.

[Michelle Obama]

No kidding.

[Barack Obama]

It didn't work. It didn't have the desired effect, so. But I was learning is. My point to Shira is like, sometimes we overcompensate our. You know, I mean, and this is a strange position. I didn't have any role models of kids in high school in the White House.

[Shira]

Oh, my goodness.

[Barack Obama]

And your dad's the first black president. Come on, give me a break. I was kind of flying blind on this, you know, so much so that, you know, I learned with Sasha coming up, who was rarely on punishment, but of course, Malia heard about it. It's like, why isn't Sasha on punishment? It's like, because what I did to you was wrong. So I'm not gonna repeat it just because you did it. But the broader point is, is that sometimes our guilt, our issues get in the way of our parenting.

[Glennon Doyle]

So true.

[Barack Obama]

And, you know, making a move and making changes, moving into a smaller house, moving away from friends, all those things can feel really heavy as a parent. And I guess my experience is, like, it didn't really hurt them that bad. They turned out to be pretty good kids. And it wasn't because of the semester punishment.

[Michelle Obama]

It wasn't.

[Barack Obama]

I was just trying to keep her off the front page of people.

[Michelle Obama]

The burden of being the oldest right there.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And also, I think, like, where Shira might be at, too. I think we are in a world that we can make lists of pros and cons and we can talk to the people. We can even send in a podcast question to Michelle Obama.

[Barack Obama]

Tell me what to do to figure out.

[Glennon Doyle]

But the truth is, and I think Glennon could probably expand on this a little. I think she already knows.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

I think deep down, there's a knowing inside of her. She's just looking for confirmation. Some which way, because at the end of the day, nobody knows what the heck they're doing. We just have to make decision after decision, and some are right and some are wrong.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And you just kind of like, flow with it.

[Barack Obama]

Flow with it.

[Abby Wambach]

And the fact that she's even asking it. I talked to this one parenting expert that said that the trouble is that all the parents that come to her to say, am I doing this right? What should I do? Those are the parents that don't need her.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

The fact that Cher's even asking these questions, even saying, what does success look like for my family? That's a great question. Like, I wish I had done that. Sit down with your person and say, what does success mean? Because you don't want to take the culture's default of that. That's a beautiful question. You know, what does it mean? What do you want your adult children to. All I care about is that they are who they are and that they know that they have a home in us to constantly return to. And so if that's success, that's enough. Right.

[Michelle Obama]

So would we be. Would we be changing our answer if it wasn't New York?

[Barack Obama]

Well, I'm biased. I think New York is.

[Craig Robinson]

That's why I was leaving over here.

[Barack Obama]

I don't. You know, no offense to New Yorkers, but, man, you know, I mean, I just. When I'm in New York and I see people with strollers and little kids I just think it's dirty down there. Pick them up, pick them up. Up, away from the dirt, you know, I mean, you walk the streets of New York in white pants and they're dirty by the end of the day. I was like, you got your kid down there. So I'm. You know, Chicago is a very different city. Yeah, you know, it's smaller, it's cleaner. It's just New York is just one of a kind.

[Glennon Doyle]

It really is.

[Barack Obama]

You know, and it just seems like a hard way to live, you know, little ones. A little ones in a stroller going down the subway. I'm just like, wow, that looks hard.

[Glennon Doyle]

It does. I'm a three day New York City person. I'm with you three day max. Two nights, three days and I'm solid. I love it. I'm like, this is. Love it for those three days, the wonderland. And then I'm like, please help me get out of here.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Is there something though I would. I do think like when I hear you talk about the way that you were raised and the community I do crave that I wish for people, for young couples. I don't think it has to be your family. Like not everyone is lucky.

[Barack Obama]

I agree.

[Abby Wambach]

Sometimes it can't be. Sometimes the support you need is not that. And I think there's a lot of pressure that it's that or nothing, which is no good for a lot of young couples. Sometimes you really do need to start new. But there's something to the accountability of community. I think it's just so easy to when things get hard. And I think I did this many times to just eject. And there's something that doesn't develop character wise as much I think in that like I do wish for people some kind of steady community in one way, but that not that has any form.

[Barack Obama]

I completely agree with you because that's my lifeblood. I mean, I've got. I'm blessed to have a brother that I love. My mother was there for us. We had a good extended family. But you know, a lot of my support came from friends that I built, the friendships that I built outside of my family. But I do know that you have to have intentionality to do that. And it is well worth the effort. At every stage of my kids life, I made sure that I knew other parents, that I got to know them so that I wouldn't know who my kids were going to a sleepover with. And that required me to invite some people to dinner or go to lunch with a mom or accept. And when we got to the White House. That was even weirder and harder, right? Because here I am, the first lady of the, you know, no matter how I acted, I come in with all the first lady smoke, you know, the Secret Service, the, you know, the assistants, the putting me in a hold room and, you know, we were just a disturbance to the, you know, ether. I had to try to be so much smaller to fit into a place, to try to build community because nobody really could come up to me. I mean, as friendly as I might be, there's just a wall of, you know, and if you came up too fast, you might get a. You might be in a lock hole, you know, so there was some physical barriers. So it was incumbent upon me to reach out or to cozy up to somebody on the bleachers and start a conversation or to put a call in to the mom and to thank them. And from that, each phase of my life, whether it was in Chicago, on the south side or in the White House, I built this community of moms and other friends and people that I could call and get the inside scoop on where the party was for the sophomores and whether the parents were actually there and did they have drugs and. And, you know, you're only going to get that information from other parents. Your kids aren't going to tell you.

[Glennon Doyle]

No, they're not.

[Craig Robinson]

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[Barack Obama]

You have to tell yourself that that's important and then you have to make the effort to build that community. So Glenn and I agree. I mean our community is our friends as well and they saved me during those years. And for Shira, I think that, you know, wherever they go, that should be the goal. Don't try to do this parenting thing on your own. You know, you need help, you need insight, you need advice, you need other people's perspectives and that's as important as your job.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right.

[Barack Obama]

You know, it's like so you might have a great career and you might have a wonderful business, but you need to have friendships that nurture your family.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

And you've gotta make time for that, and you've gotta be intentional about that. And to say that it is just as important as the success of your handbag business that you have this community of support and love, and your kids are gonna. They're gonna benefit twofold.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's so true. And, Craig, I'm gonna get you excited about the line of conversation I think will go with this. Get the oldest into sports. That is because I've moved a lot in my life, and we've moved a couple of times. Getting the kids into sports is like, first of all, the kids are the same age, so they're gonna grow up. The parents are around ish. The same age as you. And nowadays, unfortunately, although your dad was great, nowadays, I think it's the opposite. That it's kind of bizarre how much the parents watch the practices.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm like, just let them practice, like, stop. Because they're there, like, yelling at them, and they're there, like, trying to coach them. It's not as sweet as what your father was doing, but it's like insta friends. Like, you sit on the sidelines and you're just like, hey, how's it going? You know, what's going on? So that's something for Shira and her partner to think about.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. No, I completely agree with that. And our moving around was made easier because our kids were in sports.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

So they had a natural group to have an affinity with, and there's nothing better.

[Craig Robinson]

And even your girls.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah. No, we always had them in sports. They were not sports kids. But they were required to do a team sport and an individual sport. Yes. You know, it's just like. Just get out there. Just learn how to compete, you know, learn how to lose. You know, we don't care if you.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like it or not.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

That's what we did with our middle one. I didn't understand that. I was like, well, but if they're not good, should they not play sport?

[Michelle Obama]

And no.

[Abby Wambach]

What I. I have never. During the divorce, I was thinking about putting one of them into more therapy, and Abby said, how about not? And we just put them in soccer. And I thought, that's strange.

[Barack Obama]

Is that therapy?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. But really, wow. All the things that you put. It's like a little container to practice safely. Everything that's hard about being human.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Full of lessons. Full of lessons.

[Abby Wambach]

All of it. It really shaped her completely. I think.

[Glennon Doyle]

It really did. And look, we learned very quickly that sports were not gonna be a Thing for her. She came off the field one day, and she was talking to her friend, and she said, you know how, like, you're out there and you're miserable and.

[Abby Wambach]

You hate it and you're terrified?

[Glennon Doyle]

The whole time you're scared. And her teammate was like, no.

[Michelle Obama]

What?

[Glennon Doyle]

And she came home and she said, I'm not supposed to be terrified.

[Barack Obama]

I said, no, no.

[Glennon Doyle]

So she now does music, and she's doing great.

[Abby Wambach]

I said, here's a guitar.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

Try this.

[Glennon Doyle]

Do something.

[Barack Obama]

And you cry at night before practice every night for just nothing but tears.

[Michelle Obama]

But I wanna get back to Shera here. I just want what all this was for Shira. This is.

[Craig Robinson]

And one of the things she talked.

[Michelle Obama]

About was being where she is, up in rural Maine. The resources for her family are limited, which is why she was thinking about moving to New York. And I love the fact that you're thinking, Abby, that both of you are like, she knows the answer. She wants some justification. But there is some concern for parents and people if they're not making enough money for their families.

[Craig Robinson]

And let's just say that they weren't thinking New York. Right.

[Michelle Obama]

They were thinking Chicago or LA or Dallas, Texas, or somewhere.

[Barack Obama]

Another big, expensive city. Another big, expensive city.

[Michelle Obama]

What might help their overall resources? How do you look at that?

[Abby Wambach]

I mean, I was sure I'd be looking at preschools. I mean, when I was teaching. I had to quit teaching when I had my second baby because I couldn't afford to teach.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah. I could not afford child care to go. Right.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. So then I ended up starting a preschool in my home, which I do not recommend teaching.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah, yeah, sure. Don't do that. No, no.

[Abby Wambach]

But, wow, there are so many places that do have beautiful, affordable daycare. You just have to find them. And getting kids started in a really strong preschool and elementary school, to me, feels like the most important thing. I would look at that. I mean, it's tricky because she said, I want to be in a city so I can make money, but the cities are too expensive to live in.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah, that's right.

[Abby Wambach]

So it's a double bind. That is.

[Barack Obama]

Well, it's almost like they've got to really run the numbers right, because sometimes people make snap decisions. And this is one of those things, like, especially if it's New York, where you, you know, you might price yourself out of a life, you know, just being there. So now you're working to work.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Barack Obama]

And that's when I think, you know, you gotta start thinking about quality of life too. With your career. Because if you're living in such an expensive place where all your income is going to rent and tuition and you can't save for college and you can't have a vacation, you can't take time off, you know, you're working to live, those answers are in the numbers. You know, I don't know how the average family can afford to live in New York City. It's a harder way to live. Some people don't have a choice. But if you have a choice, you know, I personally wouldn't want to be so tied to my job and a salary because you just never know what's going to happen. You know, people get laid off. You know, somebody gets sick. You know, when you have a family, you got to have a margin.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Barack Obama]

You know, a kid could get sick, you might have to, you know, take off of work. And this is one thing our father was pretty good at. Cause I know when we were little, I always wanted a house. You know, I was a little girl that wanted a house with stairs and a station wagon. There were things in my mind. And we lived in a teeny, tiny apartment over our aunt's house. And my mom, eventually my aunt died, she gave the house to our family. That was the only reason we could afford to own a home. I don't think that it mattered that much. You know, it felt like it when I was a little girl, but in hindsight, I thought that our life was brilliant. You know, we didn't have a lot and that wasn't what made me who I am, having a house with stairs. But our father was pretty clear on not being house poor. So he just didn't make a lot of risky decisions that would put us in a position where he couldn't pay the bills or he couldn't save for college. So the trade off was we didn't have a house with stairs and a nice fancy station wagon. And we weren't worried. You know, we weren't living hand to mouth. Things felt fine and good. So I do think it's important for families not to push themselves to the margins where things can't go wrong.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Barack Obama]

Where you're, you know, beholden to one thing, you gotta leave room for error.

[Abby Wambach]

That's why it's so beautiful to ask yourself, like, what is success? Yeah, I mean, the amount of communities that I've stepped into where the idea of enough is not even a thing. There are communities in New York and everywhere where you will enter and never, you will never see the end to what? The Keeping up with the Joneses, the Keeping up with the. It just becomes a pursuit of something that is unattainable. And so to actually ask yourself, what is success for this little family? Like, not feeling scarcity, having a cushion, then you start to make different decisions. If your idea of success is different than whatever culture you're in is telling you it is. I think people. I really feel like people are starting to do that. I think the emperor has no clues of the treadmill of more and more. It's an empty promise that now is feeling empty. And I think these are the questions people are starting to ask. And it's really cool. People are gonna make different decisions.

[Michelle Obama]

Do you all feel. And this can be anybody. I'm getting the impression that parents today are rushing their kids to be free of their kids.

[Barack Obama]

Like, they want their kids stable so they don't have to worry about their.

[Michelle Obama]

Kids out in the world and doing the right thing and supporting themselves so they won't be bounce back kids. And I feel like I never felt that from my parents. I could always go back home. As a matter of fact, when I.

[Craig Robinson]

Was going through my divorce, I did go back home.

[Abby Wambach]

Me too.

[Michelle Obama]

And I moved upstairs where I grew up with my kids and my mom lived downstairs. It seems to me that some of the mental health issues that our young adults are having are just the fear of going out into the real world and not being ready. And then you can't come back home because your parents are trying to push you away for whatever reason. It could be a valid reason, or it could be that they just want to do their own thing as parents. And have you guys seen that or thought about that?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. I mean, when you say it, it makes me think of, oh, because that's what we were told is success. And that is actually, like, in my heart, I understand that they need to be able to be independent, but that's not what I want or think of. Like, I want there to be an interdependence, especially because of the fact that we move so much. I am their community. Like, we are each other's community. And I don't. It doesn't make sense. Like, other cultures and other countries don't have that rigid of a structure. I do think maybe that is a thing that we could let go of as the barometer. Complete independence by 21.

[Glennon Doyle]

I also think that I've been informed in a little different way because when I left for college, I never went home.

[Barack Obama]

Right.

[Glennon Doyle]

And I knew that was gonna happen. I knew that I was a good soccer player. I knew that I was gonna be gone. Like, I never even went home for the summer. Like, I was just always training with the national teams, with the youth national teams. And so there is a part of me that knows that that was probably not healthy and probably not great for my overall connection, probably with my birth family. And there's another part of me that is so grateful because it forced me to take care of myself and become this force, this independent person who has a ton of agency. I'm not scared of much. Anything that comes through the door, I'm able to handle it.

[Abby Wambach]

It's true.

[Glennon Doyle]

And so I see our youngest, kind of. She's in soccer. She's getting recruited right now. It's very exciting. And there's going to be a time where I know that if she really wants to go and signs with the college, I know that she's gonna come back less than the others. And that's gonna be hard on this one, and it will be hard on me, too. But I will. I will have. I have walked that walk.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

That's why I was trying to keep them mediocre before she came. That's my whole job. Seriously. Every time somebody'd be in gymnastics and somebody would say, they're getting really good, do you want to do the. I was like, oh, no, let's go swimming. Like, mediocre was the goal. I didn't have to give up my weekend.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

And then this one came, and now they're being recruited.

[Barack Obama]

Oh, yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

So it's interesting, you know, there's probably no right or wrong way, necessarily. I do think that there's a wisdom in our children's generation and also a little bit a softness. Both, I think, because of. Because of parents getting more therapy and being more open to listening to what their kids have to say and talking more about trauma and being. Being more in that kind of frame of mind. These children have more wisdom, and they have more understanding than. They see the world differently, and they experience the reality of their world very differently than we did on television screens. They're doing it 24. 7 on their phones. And I also think there is a part of the generation that our children are growing up in that is it's not in the real world as much, and so it's scarier for them.

[Barack Obama]

Abby. I agree. I mean, I feel the feelings of wanting to be somewhere in the middle. It is a delicate balance, because it's like, you want your kid. I want my daughters to feel independent. I really want Them to have the confidence to know that they can figure this stuff out, that life isn't rocket science, that it's a lot of common sense. And, you know, and some of that you're only gonna learn by doing, which means you're gonna have to fail. And I think a lot of parents are afraid of watching that failure. It is the hardest thing to do. To watch your kids walk into a wall that you knew was there, and you told them not to walk into it until they hit it and get a lump on their head.

[Glennon Doyle]

They just.

[Barack Obama]

That's a painful thing for us. If you keep your kids from that experience, a bump in their head, you're robbing them of their own competency.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Barack Obama]

Right. They need to know you can bump your head and you can figure it out. Go to the doctor, put some mice on it, don't do it again. Let's talk about it after the fact. But as you get older, I shouldn't have to walk you through everything. I think it's a constant exercise and of extending the leash, you know, always err on the side of making it longer, not letting it go. But it's for them to say, you like the bump on the head. You got this. You're good, you know, and they. This. These aren't hard choices, but I think sometimes parents are, you know, holding on a little bit too long.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

And with that said, I want my kids to know when things are really bad.

[Abby Wambach]

Right.

[Barack Obama]

Right. And you're really in a bind. Don't even question, because we know you work hard. We know who you are. We know that you're not trying to get over. We know you wake up every morning giving it a shot. But life can be hard. So take some risks because you'll land softly here. But you can do this. You know, I think that's always my message. And you start. Start with Shira. When your kids are five and two, you know, start making decisions, no matter what they are, whether it's moving or staying, or you go to one school or you don't, you tell them, you can handle this.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

You got this. Yes. And then you're watching from the gate, just making sure everything is okay. But they should know that you're watching, you know, they shouldn't know, but you're watching, you know, but they should think, look at what I did, you know, I started a new school. I made a new friend. I figured out my own homework. I wrote my own paper. I got a C, but I didn't get an A paper. Cause My mom wrote the other half of it. You know, this was my c. Is my victory, my failure. And I think parents making decisions that make sense for the whole. You know, and giving your kids credit for being resilient, letting them build that resiliency muscle, I think that's what readies them right for life, which is our ultimate job, not to have them in our basement. Because if that was, my kids would still be sleeping in my bed. They would not. They would not. Barack is the only reason that, you know, I love sleeping with my kids. Anytime that I got a big one, you sit on my lap, I'm just like, so.

[Glennon Doyle]

But same with Glennon. Don't feel bad about yourself.

[Craig Robinson]

What is wrong with you?

[Glennon Doyle]

We had two twin beds on the floor on the edge of our bed.

[Barack Obama]

Whoa. Okay. I'm not judging.

[Glennon Doyle]

They were just, like, looking away.

[Craig Robinson]

What is she saying?

[Michelle Obama]

Why didn't I think of that?

[Glennon Doyle]

She's like, dang it.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah. I am picturing that. It's like. Yeah. Then they just roll over.

[Abby Wambach]

It's a good point, though, to figure out for Shira what Shira needs and wants. Because what you're talking about when you say all of that, I'm thinking we do that because we want to still be needed.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

We do that because we're like, oh, I'm right now in the. My children are becoming adults, and my role is completely different. It's the hardest. The hardest part of parenting I've done. And there is the tendency to create the codependent thing because you don't know who you are without that. And so it could be the most important thing to be creating a life where your kids know you're okay so that your job actually can be to create resilient kids.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Because some of us get confused and think our job is to keep them needing me.

[Barack Obama]

Yes. Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

And so to build the community that they need, that Shara and her partner need, and to build a career that she feels enlivened by and at life. Then her kids can know she's okay, and they'll be okay. Stay off. Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

That's the perfect segue to. And I don't want Shira to be saying, ah, I wish I hadn't sent in this question. Cause I don't know any more. What are our takeaways? What are a couple of takeaways for Shira to be able to go. She and her partner go back and at least formulate a plan for a decision.

[Glennon Doyle]

Sit down with your husband and figure out what you need. I mean, I think Michelle was saying that write it down, figure out what is at the bottom line, what the cost is gonna be, what the pros of that cost, and then go deep, deep down and figure out what you want. I think we're all afraid to actually figure out what it is we really want. And we tend to stay in the I should lane and so get brave enough to go figure out what it is. And it sounds like she's good at it because she's a handbag maker of her own. That sounds probably like something that she wanted. And geographically, it's not about the geography. I don't wanna take away your guys options.

[Barack Obama]

No, no, that's absolutely true. It's like the job of the couple, the family, the adults, is to make the adult decision, you know, and don't be afraid to be guided by what the adults need, you know, but don't parent out of guilt. Once you make the adult decision, don't feel sorry for your child because you did something that you wanted to do. Love them, give them stability, you know, help them grow in their new community, in their new surroundings, but still parent.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I would just say, what is success? Really Talking to each other about, what does a successful family. What do you mean by that? Most of us don't even get to the differences of those ideas until 10 years in. But we've all been taught different things from our families of origin about what success means. I think sometimes people don't think enough about, yes, let's build community. But the community you're in right now is the two of you. So what does a successful dad? What does a good dad mean to you? What does it mean to be a good mom? Cause those are loaded things that we don't pull apart. We need to really get the mental load written down and really assign things. What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? The support often needs to be worked out within the family first. Right. So I think there's beautiful conversations to be had. And anybody sitting down to figure out what success is instead of defaulting to the culture is gonna be better off.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah. And there are many ways to build a family. There's no right answer. There really isn't. And you guys both said is filled with roadblocks and stumbles. And even when they do all the pros and cons and lay it out, they may make a decision and it doesn't work.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

All the time.

[Barack Obama]

And guess what? Change it. You know, you get a do over. There are so many do overs in life, there are few things that really, you know, ruin a kid or ruin a family. There's just, you know, if there's love, you know, if there's effort. Right. And if there's trust, all the rest of it, you're just figuring it out.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

Forever tries, we always say family. Forever tries. And make your little plan.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah, yeah. We'll see, right? That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

Trust me.

[Barack Obama]

That's what you thought.

[Abby Wambach]

A year later, the plan will be different. I always think the only stability we really have is, like, you and me right here. That's the stability. You and me, and then me and Emma and then me and Tish. It's like a direct. I'm looking at you, you're looking at me. That's the stability we have forever. The geography, even our family structure change. Sometimes stability isn't what you need to step into the next most beautiful imagination of your family. So. But that direct line, person to person, that's what has to be stable, I think.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Wow. Well, Shira, I hope this has been helpful because it's been helpful for me.

[Glennon Doyle]

What are you gonna do? She's gotta send in follow up, and.

[Barack Obama]

Then we can just.

[Michelle Obama]

That's right.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Barack Obama]

Terrible decision, Shira. Well, I don't know how you got that out of what we just said.

[Michelle Obama]

I must say that the thing that I got, and this could be my coaching background, is you always have to be prepared to pivot and not be afraid to pivot. And I'm hearing this from your family. I know it happened in our family, as parents, we've all had to pivot, and the kids are better for it.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

So I really appreciate that on Shira's behalf, so thank you for that, Abby Glennon.

[Barack Obama]

Thank you, guys. Thanks for taking the time being a part of this incredible conversation. I want to do it again and again. Me too. Yeah. It's good to see you guys.

[Glennon Doyle]

Me too.

[Barack Obama]

Really?

[Glennon Doyle]

It's good to meet you.

[Michelle Obama]

It's good.

[Craig Robinson]

It's good to meet you.

[Michelle Obama]

We have to talk about elite athletes. That's right. One day, just.

[Barack Obama]

Okay. We can do a show on that. We can see an episode on that. We can heckle them.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, we just. Absolutely. I love this conversation. Thank you so much for having you guys.

[Michelle Obama]

This is all right. It's great to meet you both.

[Barack Obama]

Be well.