Support with Compassion with Dwyane Wade and Gabrielle Union

Summary

Podcast Summary: IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson

Episode: Support with Compassion with Dwyane Wade and Gabrielle Union
Date: August 20, 2025
Host: Higher Ground
Guests: Gabrielle Union and Dwyane Wade

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the complexities of sibling relationships, the importance of compassion in support, and the challenges of navigating family dynamics as adults. Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson are joined by Gabrielle Union and Dwyane Wade—partners in life and parenting—who lend their candid perspectives and humor to a deep discussion about conflict resolution, blended families, and helping listeners with their own dilemmas. The episode centers on practical advice and real-life anecdotes, culminating in advice for a listener struggling to support her sister.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Family Traditions, Relationships, and Sibling Bonds

[00:34–07:29]

• Craig and Michelle reminisce about their college years at Princeton and the ways sibling dynamics shaped their early adulthood.
• Anecdotes of shared experiences—including Craig's DJ "Playboy Crew"—illustrate closeness and independence their parents instilled.
  • Michelle: "I feel fortunate to have had you with me...coming from public school, being a black kid from the inner city, I think having you there really, you know, helped give me a level of confidence." (05:02)
• Exploring how cultural and economic transitions, such as attending formal Princeton dinners ("the artichoke"-story), shaped their perspective on adaptation and belonging.

2. Conflict Resolution: From Childhood to Adulthood

[07:29–08:12]

• The shift from physical “duking it out” as children to having open, communicative conversations as adults.
• Michelle: “As adults, if we were to have any kind of conflict, we’d just talk it over.” (08:04)

3. Welcoming Gabrielle Union and Dwyane Wade: New Ways to "Family"

[10:02–16:01]

• Gabrielle and Dwyane discuss their evolving family structure and creating intentional spaces for deeper connection and less distraction.
  • Gabrielle: "We keep finding our...new ways to family. We bought a place up where the farm country." (10:48)
• Emphasis on the power of humor as a coping mechanism and focusing on the essential—family safety and bonding.
• Michelle and Craig share on the realities of marriage and the necessity of perseverance during hard times.
  • Michelle: "Marriage is...it's beautiful, but it's difficult. And you don't just walk away in the difficult times because you miss all the beauty." (11:49)

4. Navigating Crisis Together

[12:11–15:29]

• Gabrielle recounts their experience evacuating during fires, revealing differences in crisis responses and the value of preparedness versus actual action.

  • Gabrielle: "You have a plan until you get hit in the mouth...and then it was like, no, no, we gotta go." (14:01)

• Discussion about what truly matters in urgent situations—the importance of people over possessions, except maybe family photos.

  • Craig: "The only thing I thought about that I didn't take...really, the photos and the pictures on the walls." (15:29)

5. The Value of Community and Support Networks

[16:01–19:05]

• Storytelling on the importance of physical proximity and community in major life decisions like home buying—how Michelle and Barack bought a home near Craig and his family.
  • Michelle: "It meant a lot for us to be able to be close to you as new home buyers." (16:50)
• The village mindset: coaching, participating in kids’ lives, and inviting local communities into experiences otherwise rare (e.g., White House events).
  • Michelle: "We did our very best, even in the White House, to continue having an investment in our broader community." (19:05)

6. Sibling Dynamics in Blended and Extended Families

[21:04–28:59]

• The guests reflect on helping siblings through parental health crises, the importance of not micromanaging each other, and accepting different approaches.
  • Gabrielle: "I'm very meticulous...there's a right way and there's a wrong way...my little sister lives in a place of varying colors of gray." (22:02)
  • Dwyane's role as translator and his experiences with his own sisters, navigating respect and boundaries.
• Gabrielle discusses the challenge of being accepted into Dwyane’s family, earning trust over time, and the mutual reinforcement that developed after her sister-in-law experienced similar life changes.
  • Gabrielle: "So it took some years, really, to earn their trust and then also for them to earn my trust." (28:01)

7. Listener Dilemma: Supporting a Sister Under Stress

Listener “Charlotte” Question Read at [32:20]

• Charlotte asks how to support her increasingly distant sister, who’s struggling with her daughter’s anger and related family stress. Her sister is withdrawing from communication, which is straining their bond.

Panel Advice & Insights

Direct vs. Indirect Support Strategies (34:09–42:32)

• Gabrielle: Favors direct confrontation. “Let’s just get to it. Nobody has...oodles and noodles of time these days.” (34:09)

  • Empathizes with the emotional burden and possible humiliation her sister might feel.
  • Notes the withdrawal may stem from imagined or real perceptions of judgment.

• Michelle: Stress on honest conversation. “You gotta pull your sister aside and have the conversations you didn't have. Because this is when bad dynamics get in the way of the future.” (36:09)

  • Offers her experience being surprised by her brother’s divorce, illustrating the importance of sharing, even if the messenger assumes they’ll be judged.

• Dwyane: Suggests focusing on the sibling bond rather than stepping into parental or auntie roles directly: “Sometimes you just need your sister, you know, and provide that safe space as being a sister, not being the auntie, not being, you know, anyone who brings judgment.” (39:07)

• Gabrielle: On escalation: “If you really think someone is suffering...I will try every avenue to reach you...through a mutual friend, another relative.” (40:48)

  • Advocates for giving space if needed: “If I feel like my back is to the wall, give me a minute. Maybe a few weeks.” (42:33)

Role of the “Village” – Supporting the Niece (42:38–48:45)

• Michelle: Advises being present for the niece—spending time not as intervention but as connection. "Maybe I can just pick her up and do something that seems innocuous or fun, where maybe this girl will open up to me in a different way." (44:26)

• Craig: Stresses not coming in as a “specialist.” “Kids don't want a specialist.” (47:18)

• Dwyane and Craig: Emphasize authenticity, relatability, and sharing vulnerability to foster trust.

Parenting, Favoritism, and Sibling Competition (49:23–64:40)

• The group elaborates on factors shaping sibling relationships: parental comparison, blended families, and individual child personalities.

  • Gabrielle: “There's three girls in our house...My older sister became like a mom...my little sister was kind of like...this extra person.” (52:33–54:07)
  • Michelle: Shares tactics avoiding comparisons, e.g., “I tried never to compare my daughters as girls. I tried to avoid...having conversations about grades at the table.” (50:53)

• Dwyane: Connects these dynamics to sports coaching, noting fairness and individualized support are key to team—and family—cohesion.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Michelle Obama: “Marriage is...it's beautiful, but it's difficult. And you don't just walk away in the difficult times because you miss all the beauty.” (11:49)
• Gabrielle Union: “You have a plan until you get hit in the mouth...and then it was like, no, no, we gotta go.” (14:01)
• Craig Robinson: “The only thing I thought about that I didn't take...really, the photos and the pictures on the walls.” (15:29)
• Dwyane Wade: “Sometimes you gotta take it all the way back to the basics...focus on your relationship just with your sister.” (39:07)
• Gabrielle Union: “If you really think someone is suffering...I will try every avenue to reach you.” (40:48)
• Michelle Obama: “If we want our kids to have this foundation and this relationship going forward, it starts when they’re little.” (67:06)

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Detailed Advice to the Listener (“Charlotte”)

(65:15–68:10)

Tips for Navigating Sibling Support:

• Work on the core sibling relationship: "Just you and me just being.” (65:31)
• Allow for space: “Siblings need it.” (65:47)
• Self-reflect: “Is there something that you are doing...that could be the thing that doesn't allow your sister to want to tell you?” (65:52)
• Offer listening over advice: “Sometimes when people tell you stuff, they just want you to listen...not always give your two cents.” (66:59)
• Lay the groundwork early: Parent in ways that foster harmony and avoid comparison or triangulation among siblings. (67:06)

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Conclusion

This episode delivers a heartfelt and pragmatic exploration of family complexities and support with compassion. Through honest storytelling and thoughtful advice, the hosts and guests urge listeners to value open communication, respect individual differences, and foster strong bonds—whether between siblings, spouses, or generations. Practical guidance for Charlotte (and listeners like her) centers on the power of presence, active listening, and nurturing relationships at their core.

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Notable Timestamps

• Sibling Relationships in College: 03:01–07:29
• Welcoming Gabrielle & Dwyane: 08:12–16:01
• Marriage and Humor: 10:18–12:11
• Evacuating During Fire (Crisis Response): 12:11–15:29
• Home and Community: 16:01–19:05
• Blended Extended Family Dynamics: 21:04–28:59
• Charlotte’s Listener Question: 32:20–34:09
• Advice for Charlotte (Main Segment): 34:09–68:10

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Tone & Style

The episode is warm, candid, and filled with humor, compassion, and relatable wisdom from all four main voices. The hosts foster a safe, honest environment for illuminating both the joys and challenges of close relationships.

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For more stories, listener dilemmas, and practical compassion, tune in to future episodes of "IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson."

Transcript

[Craig Robinson]

It's a gab way.

[Michelle Obama]

There's a gab way. And what is the gab way?

[Gabrielle Union]

The right way, the most efficient way?

[Craig Robinson]

No, it's the gab way. And then it's the other way. That's what it is, I think about efficiency.

[Gabrielle Union]

How do we solve the problem in the shortest amount of time?

[Michelle Obama]

This episode is brought to you by Cologuard and Chase. Home Lending.

[Dwyane Wade]

We're back.

[Michelle Obama]

Hey, what's happening?

[Gabrielle Union]

Hoodie.

[Dwyane Wade]

Thank you.

[Michelle Obama]

Go hoodie. Go hoodie.

[Dwyane Wade]

Thank you.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, this is you trying to style it up here.

[Dwyane Wade]

This is not me trying to style it. This is Kelly and Austin trying to style me up.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, yeah. Is that an outfit picked out by your younger.

[Dwyane Wade]

By my 15 year old. Anything. You time you see me with a hood on, that means Austin had a hand in the decision making process.

[Michelle Obama]

So hood is.

[Dwyane Wade]

Hood is. Austin adds an extra layer. It's just he's trying to get to be like a 15 year old.

[Michelle Obama]

He's trying to keep his old dad looking young. It's like. So you don't come up to the game coaching, like, whose grandfather is that?

[Dwyane Wade]

That's right.

[Michelle Obama]

It's like, no, that's my dad. He's got a hoodie on, so he's cool. But now you're looking shocked.

[Dwyane Wade]

I feel. I feel good. I feel I got a good night's sleep in. In the Airbnb last night and you know, I'm staying. I stayed in the one in West Hollywood that I stayed in last time.

[Michelle Obama]

So this is becoming your usual Pat.

[Dwyane Wade]

Yes. And then I came to find out this was one of their featured places. And I see why. Because once you stay there, you want to keep coming back.

[Michelle Obama]

So what do you mean it's one of their featured places? They have featured.

[Dwyane Wade]

They have these spots where people rate it high enough. Like this is a favorite place for a lot of people and I see why.

[Michelle Obama]

So you've taken up space.

[Dwyane Wade]

So I might be. But I'm.

[Michelle Obama]

You think you're one of their high end.

[Dwyane Wade]

I'm trying to become one of their high end customers.

[Michelle Obama]

But that's the beauty of Airbnb. You got all these different levels. Because I don't think when my kids. Cause they use Airbnbs a lot, they're not. They can't afford to stay in the nicer, higher ranked places. So what makes this place so nice?

[Dwyane Wade]

Well, aside from the fact there are three bedrooms and there's only one of me and two bathrooms. It's got two pools and a Jacuzzi. Two pools Very comfortable. I got a good night's sleep. You know, I'm usually two hours ahead. So I went to bed early, woke up in the middle of the night, checked my notes because I was excited about Duane and Gabrielle being here.

[Michelle Obama]

I know it's gonna be a fun conversation.

[Dwyane Wade]

Yes. Yeah. They're like old friends, so it's gonna be good. But this show is about sibling relationship. And you know what? People ask me all the time about you, what our relationship was like in college.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Cause we went to the same college. We did.

[Dwyane Wade]

We went to Princeton together. And I.

[Michelle Obama]

Two years overlapped.

[Dwyane Wade]

Two years apart. And so we overlapped for two years. And I would say that it was sort of a normal relationship. I think I was more worried about you than mom would've liked me to be, but that's kind of usually what I do.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, you were always kind of a worrier. But we didn't hang. Hang out together.

[Dwyane Wade]

No. It wasn't like we were going to the pub, drinking beers together. But.

[Michelle Obama]

No, no.

[Dwyane Wade]

But whenever there was a party, we were usually both there together.

[Michelle Obama]

And what people may not know about you is that you were a dj.

[Dwyane Wade]

Correct?

[Michelle Obama]

Craigie Craig. On the mic, you were Craigie Craig.

[Dwyane Wade]

I was Craigie Craig.

[Michelle Obama]

So that was also another cool thing, because the handful of parties that we had, which were always at the Third World Center. You. And who else did you DJ with?

[Dwyane Wade]

With Steve Mills.

[Michelle Obama]

Steve Mills. Also Steve Williams basketball team.

[Dwyane Wade]

Yeah. And William Murphy.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, that's right. So what did you all. Was your crew called something?

[Dwyane Wade]

It was called. Oh, my gosh. It was called the Playboy Crew.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh.

[Dwyane Wade]

And we had these. We had these orange jackets. Why? Because that's what people did back then.

[Michelle Obama]

Were you. Were you all the Playboy?

[Craig Robinson]

No.

[Dwyane Wade]

Well, you know, I wasn't a Playboy, but we might have had a couple of Playboys in our crew. Yeah, yeah, we were the playboy crew. We DJed most of the parties that took place while we were there.

[Michelle Obama]

So that was pretty cool having your big brother on the mic. Craigie Craig on the mic. So that was kind of cool. So I think, you know, I mean, mom and dad raised us to be close, but independent.

[Dwyane Wade]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, and I think as a result, that's how it played out at college for us. I mean, you were not wanted to interfere in my love life. You weren't. Although some people said that guys were a little less. They were a little cautious about stepping up because of you. But I don't think.

[Dwyane Wade]

And it wasn't anything I would say or do.

[Michelle Obama]

It was just me Being there, your presence was there. But I didn't feel any different when you graduated. But, you know, I feel fortunate to have. To have had you with me. I think as. As difficult of a transition as Princeton could have been for me, coming from public school, being a black kid from the inner city, I think having you there really, you know, helped give me a level of confidence and just sort of a kind of a place to land. Because every now and then we go out to dinner, or if you ever got invited by some Princeton booster to go to dinner, which the basketball team you had sort of wealthy donors who kind of looked out for you. You would always bring me to these dinners. And I remember one dinner we went to at some older couple's house, the.

[Dwyane Wade]

Georges, Mr. And Mrs. George.

[Michelle Obama]

And they served artichokes.

[Dwyane Wade]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

Do you remember that dinner? I remember we had never had artichokes before. Imagine, these two kids from the south side of Chicago were sitting in some big house in Princeton, New Jersey. I don't know where we were. You know, we had table manners. But the first course was artichokes.

[Dwyane Wade]

I mean, and we had no idea.

[Michelle Obama]

What to do with this. And I thought. Cause an artichoke looks like a cactus.

[Dwyane Wade]

Yes. It looks like it would stick you if you touched it.

[Michelle Obama]

And then they. I mean, it's like you thought, is this a joke? You know, of all things to feed two black kids from the inner city. You gonna start with artichokes? Really? You know, but they told us about.

[Dwyane Wade]

Pulling the leaves off and then scraping the.

[Michelle Obama]

Scraping the little bit of artichoke, which I was like, on the leaf of an artichoke, there is nothing there. So I'm like, what are we doing? We just suck it on you dip it in some butter and lemon, and you suck on it. And I was like, this is a joke. This is a joke. They're eating, like, plastic. Plastic. It looked like a plastic plant. I don't even remember what else they served, but I remember that artichoke.

[Dwyane Wade]

Remember they.

[Michelle Obama]

I couldn't. I think I was lost after that.

[Dwyane Wade]

Chick outside on a wood burning.

[Michelle Obama]

I don't remember that. I just remember that artichoke.

[Dwyane Wade]

Yeah, well.

[Michelle Obama]

But anyway, so it was a good experience. And I think that as a result, it affected the way we. Our relationship into our adulthood. And I think we're talking about that today.

[Dwyane Wade]

We're talking about conflict resolution with siblings and as adults. As adults. Which is totally different thing. Yeah. I mean, you know, when we were little, we just duked it out.

[Michelle Obama]

I just hit you in the back.

[Dwyane Wade]

That's right. You just hit me and I couldn't hit you back. And that was.

[Michelle Obama]

Seemed fair to me.

[Dwyane Wade]

Yeah. Yeah. But as we've gotten into adulthood, though, I mean, you know, we don't have many conflicts.

[Michelle Obama]

No, no, we don't.

[Dwyane Wade]

So, I mean, if we were to have any kind of conflict, how to resolve it, would we just talk it over? Right?

[Michelle Obama]

I would think so, but it would depend on what it. Unfortunately. But we can get into that in a moment. But we got some guests.

[Dwyane Wade]

We have some guests. And I am so excited with these two. And like I said at the outset, this is like having family on first. We've got. Well, we've got Gabrielle Union and Dwayne Wade. And I want to start with Gabrielle. She's an actress and executive producer and activist and bestselling author. She began her acting career in the 1990s and is known for her roles in films like bring it on, 10 things I hate about yout, the Perfect Find, and the Inspection, which I'm trying to see. Is there anything on there I haven't seen? I haven't seen the inspection yet.

[Michelle Obama]

Okay, you got time.

[Dwyane Wade]

And then there's my man, Dwayne Wade, who's a former professional basketball player who's in the hall of Fame. Fame and name to the top 75 players of all time. He won three National Basketball association championships in 2006, 2012 and 2013. The ultimate power couple as a member of the Miami Heat. He and Gabrielle Union have been married since 2014. And Duane tried to dunk on me at the president's birthday party when we were. When we were together. He doesn't remember this, of course. Cause he tries to dunk on everybody, but he tried to catch a body on me, and I just kind of tiptoed out of the way so we can talk about that.

[Michelle Obama]

So you technically weren't dunked on. Cause you just moved out the way. That's a good way not to get dunked on.

[Dwyane Wade]

I could see the look, and he had business in his mind when he was coming toward me. So we have Gabrielle Union and Dwayne Wade. Come on out, gang.

[Michelle Obama]

And welcome to imo.

[Dwyane Wade]

That's all right. Gotta get out the way. Yeah, I think that's.

[Michelle Obama]

That's some of the best advice for not getting that dunked on. Step aside. Step aside. Hey, y'. All. Hi. Welcome to imo. How are you guys doing?

[Gabrielle Union]

Good. It's been a. Like an eventful 2025 so far. So half of it is just hang on. Just Hang on.

[Michelle Obama]

Like, where are we now?

[Gabrielle Union]

Where are we? What are we doing? But yeah, through it all, we've got jokes. Like, thank God for humor. We got jokes indeed. Yeah. We just keep coming back to family. We keep finding our. Finding new ways to family. You know, we have new projects. We bought a place up where the farm country.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, yeah, in the country. The water. So what's happening up there?

[Craig Robinson]

We need silence in our life.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Gabrielle Union]

And a place where we can just. There's not as many distractions, where we can just kind of have real quality time where there's very little cell service. And so nobody's on their phones like.

[Michelle Obama]

That because we can't get any service.

[Gabrielle Union]

So we're just really turning to each other. So, yeah, it's been good, though.

[Michelle Obama]

That's awesome. That's awesome. So you guys now are old married couple.

[Gabrielle Union]

I mean, it goes.

[Michelle Obama]

You get close to me and Barack.

[Craig Robinson]

No, no, no, no. We're 10 years. We're 10 years in I. That you had 10 years where you didn't even like Barack. So I'm like, man, where is that coming?

[Michelle Obama]

You know, I just tell the. You know, it's like you have these periods, right? And if you married for 30 years, you know, like, you just look at the odds. If you're going to be married 30 years and somebody told you a third of those times wouldn't be great.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

You'd still take the odds. You take those odds. Those are great odds. The point being is that marriage is. It's beautiful, but it's difficult. And you don't. You don't just walk away in the difficult times because you miss all the beauty, because you don't.

[Gabrielle Union]

You.

[Michelle Obama]

Because you think it's gotta be perfect, you know, and it is never perfect. It just is, you know, it just is.

[Gabrielle Union]

You just. It just is. And you keep going. You know, we had the fires, right? And so I'm always that person who likes. I stay in a place of. I wish such and such would. Right? So I think of every worst case scenario at all times, right. I know the escape routes. I know what I'm gonna do. I know what I'm gonna say. I'm ready, right?

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dwyane Wade]

Welcome to the club.

[Gabrielle Union]

Right? And until there's a fire, the fire breaks out. Cause, you know, first day, of course, Dee was like, let's all pack a bag. We'll put the suitcase by the door. First day comes, we don't actually evacuate. So he starts taking a couple things out that you need. Second day comes, we don't actually evacuate now. There's more things out. Third day, it's like midday. It doesn't seem like we're going to evacuate. I'm looking out the window, and I see this plume of white smoke. So I Google, what does white smoke mean? And it says new fire. But I'm kind of in shock, Right?

[Michelle Obama]

You can see it.

[Gabrielle Union]

I can see it. It looks like it's on the other side of our neighbor's home. It's close, and it's not in the direction of any other fire. So I'm on all the apps. I'm like, did we miss a fire that started? Yeah, it had just started. Literally just started. And I'm just looking out the window, and this guy comes home and he's like, it's go time. It's go time. And I'm like, I was in shock.

[Michelle Obama]

But he turned into Liam Neeson.

[Dwyane Wade]

He turned into Liam Neeson.

[Gabrielle Union]

She said, I was jarred, but I still couldn't move.

[Michelle Obama]

Right. Right. I was slowly getting my medication.

[Gabrielle Union]

Like, what is happening?

[Craig Robinson]

They say you have a plan until you get hit in the mouth. I heard a plan. Everybody have a game plan to get hit in the mouth at that point. We got hit in the mouth. And it was like a quick moment of hesitation.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

And then it was like, no, no, we gotta go. We gotta go. I might have said it with a little.

[Dwyane Wade]

Oh, like, little bass in your voice.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. It's go time.

[Craig Robinson]

It was time to go.

[Michelle Obama]

Okay.

[Craig Robinson]

I'm thinking about all the family. We gotta go get everybody safety.

[Gabrielle Union]

You thought about, like, which cars, right? Cause you're thinking, if we come back to nothing, you know, like, at least the adults in our household, it's me, Dee, and my little sister who helps us raise cop. He pulls out the three most expensive cars I've driven. Me and my sister have driven none of it.

[Michelle Obama]

It's like, I don't. We don't even know how to operate.

[Gabrielle Union]

I don't know how do you turn in the radio? We don't know where exactly. Where exactly. Just north. Like, me and Tracy are like. We're in, you know, these cars, and both of us are thinking, what is his deductible if I crash this thing? Like, how much is this gonna cost? I couldn't. Like, it was. Oh, but this man with a plan.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. You know, and in the end, in those times, it's like, you have family. Because as many people as I've talked about, we have number of friends who were affected by the fire. And, you know, we asked the question, when it's go time, what do you take? Right? And for so many people, when they looked at the stuff, what they really took was a little bit of a lot of nothing. It was like, in the end, you just wanted to get out with the people that you love. I don't know if you guys felt that way, but a lot of people had clarity about their stuff and what really mattered. In this instance, when everything could be gone.

[Craig Robinson]

You know, the only thing I thought about that I didn't take, and I didn't take a lot, but really, the photos and the pictures on the walls, the memories and the moments. I know we have our iPhones and we have photos all in there, but it's a lot of photos that you cannot get back. And when I came back to the house, I was like, I would have missed, really, really, really missed these. So that would be the one thing I would go back and say, get all the photos off the walls.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Dwyane Wade]

This segment is brought to you by Chase Home Lending, who is committed to helping people in all communities gain confidence in the home buying process. You know, Meesh, we've had a number of questions from young people about where they should be putting down roots. Can you talk about the importance of community and support networks when putting down roots and buying a home?

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. In fact, the very first home you remember that Barack and I bought was a condominium on south side of Chicago in Hyde park, in East View Park. And one of the primary selling features of us choosing that home was that it was literally five doors down from the home that you had bought.

[Dwyane Wade]

That's right.

[Michelle Obama]

So it meant a lot for us to be able to be close to you as new home buyers. You guys had just gotten married, you and Janice, and you had just had Avery or J. Avery.

[Dwyane Wade]

Avery was a baby when we moved in there. And all of those homes were condos, right? So they were like apartments, but they were two and three bedroom places that were perfect for a fresh start or a first start in home buying and community.

[Michelle Obama]

For us as a family unit, I mean, we all lived very close from each other. Not everybody in our extended family were homeowners. Some people rented, but renting near people that you loved. When we grew up, it was like.

[Dwyane Wade]

When we grew up, you know, we were around the corner from two grandparents and we were lived above aunt Robbie. We lived above our aunt Robbie, and we lived about 15 minute drive from our paternal grandparents. So we were used to being close.

[Michelle Obama]

To each other and we could lean on each other. So in addition to, you know, dealing with the new burdens of being homeowners. It was good to have family close by, you know, do the proverbial dropping by for a cup of sugar, you know, having some ready made babysitters on hand.

[Dwyane Wade]

Yeah, yeah. And shoot. We have a different situation, but the same kind of community that we are providing for our younger kids. And I'm doing it in a different way. I'm in the community coaching their sports and that is a great way to meet new people, to have the kids socialize with different kind of folks that they don't go to school with. I've also spoken, spoken at the kids schools. I have participated in their field day activities. But it's really important to invest in.

[Michelle Obama]

The communities that you live and are investing to buy a home.

[Dwyane Wade]

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I gotta imagine it was hard for you to accomplish this when you were in the White House. How did you do that?

[Michelle Obama]

Well, it's still being a part of the broader Washington D.C. community was important on a number of different. I mean, I wanted the broader community to feel like they had some connection to what was going on behind the gates of the White House. So for example, every time we had a state dinner, we made sure to invite local school groups, local classrooms to come for the day to join in the welcoming ceremony for the country leader that was coming in. We would work with local public schools to have them come in and taste the dinner and sit down and see the, see the table setting so that a lot of kids growing up in the inner city would understand that right down the street from them and right in their backyard was this amazing diplomatic exchange. But if we didn't invite them in, they wouldn't understand what all the hubbub was. So we did our very best, even in the White House to continue. Having an investment in our broader community and not just in the world was a, it was a priority for us, as it should be for any homeowner.

[Dwyane Wade]

Thanks to Chase Home Lending for sponsoring this segment. Having the right support when finding a home is so important. And Chase Home Lending helps people at every stage of the home ownership journey. From first time buyers to those relocating for new opportunities. They are committed to helping people in all communities gain confidence in the home buying process. Because owning a home isn't just about having a place to live. It's about building a brighter future for you and your family. Ready to take that first step? Learn [e-mail] start member FDIC equal housing opportunity.

[Michelle Obama]

So you said your sister's with you?

[Gabrielle Union]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. So are you guys close as an extended family? You know, talk about that.

[Gabrielle Union]

I see my little sister as a little sister. Like, we are seven years apart. Like, oh, yeah, that's real sister are.

[Michelle Obama]

Four and then seven.

[Gabrielle Union]

So we were related, but we weren't really in the house at the same time. We were not going through the same milestones at the same time.

[Dwyane Wade]

So.

[Gabrielle Union]

So she's like just this little sister. In my mind, they're closer to the same age. So he sees her as way more capable and way more. I shouldn't say important. Cause she's important, but she's just a little sister adult, like. Yes, she is an adult to him. She's a little sister to me. And he values my little sister like no other.

[Craig Robinson]

I never thought I'd live with.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, that's right.

[Gabrielle Union]

I mean. And, you know, like, me and my little sister, we deal with so much with our, you know, with our. Our family. You know, both of our parents are, you know, they're older. Many health issues, dealing with insurance, dealing with who's going where, who's covering, you know, Social Security hasn't kicked in, so we don't have caregiver relief and who's doing what and how. But I'm very meticulous, very anal. There's a right way and there's a wrong way. There's zero gray. And my little sister lives in a place of varying colors of gray. And so, you know, it's hard when you're under stress and you're like, well, why didn't you do this, this and this? And he's like, but she did it. It just wasn't how you wanted it done.

[Craig Robinson]

There's a gab way and then it's.

[Michelle Obama]

There's a gab way and then the gabby. And what is the gab way?

[Gabrielle Union]

The right way? The most right when she said a.

[Craig Robinson]

Right way and the wrong way? No, it's the gab way. And then it's the other way. That's what it is, I think, about.

[Gabrielle Union]

Efficiency, like, how do we solve the problem in the shortest amount of time? But, yeah, I mean, and she just has a different way of moving through life, and she's way more positive. The glass is not only half full, it is spilling over even when there's cobwebs in the glass. So we just approach life differently. And when you add in stressors, it's a challenge because we wake up to each other. We haven't done that, you know, in a billion years. And it's like, you agree, and I Want to send her a strongly worded email. Like I would send my older sister because she doesn't live at our house. But she's there she is at breakfast and I'm like, are you just going.

[Craig Robinson]

To eat those over avocado?

[Gabrielle Union]

You know, like, just going to eat that avocado toast? You just not responding to the family group chat. Okay, okay. You know what I mean? But, you know, we figure it out. But he's the translator.

[Michelle Obama]

That's what I was about to say. Then you. How are you in the middle of all this?

[Craig Robinson]

I'm the common factor of all of this.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

Until I'm not. But I, you know, I understand the dynamics and, you know, I also understand the Scorpios that's in my house.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Oh, Scorpio.

[Craig Robinson]

They're both Scorpios. Different kind of Scorpios, but I understand them a little bit. And so I think for me is just really taking time. I've really took a lot of time to get to know her sister. Like, hey, late at night, let's have a conversation, let's get a drink, you know, let's go to lunch, rise to school with our daughter. Like, just trying to get to know the person and, you know, not look at her as her little sister and all the things she says about having a little sister. Because I understand. And so I'm just, you know, the one that said, well, look at it this way, because y' all are so polar opposites and, you know, she's never gonna be, never gonna do it how you want it done. And so, you know, sometimes you gotta take, you know, you gotta move on the other side and perspective. It's important.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, not many men could live with their sister in law. You know, talk to me. I mean, you know, I mean, I. Yeah.

[Dwyane Wade]

And I'm interested. So how's your relationship with your sister compared to, with.

[Michelle Obama]

And vice versa.

[Dwyane Wade]

And vice versa, yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, my relationship, I have four sisters, very, very different ages. One that I'm really, really close with because we grew up, we have the same mother and father.

[Dwyane Wade]

Okay.

[Craig Robinson]

And so our relationship is great. She raised me. It's a respect factor there on both sides. My other sisters are, you know, we have same mom, different dads and things of that nature. And so I, I give them space and they give me space, and when they don't give me space, I give them more space. But.

[Michelle Obama]

All right, well, well said.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, I think one thing, and it comes with a little bit of the position that I'm in where I'VE been the leader of the family in a lot of ways because of this position. And so my relationship with my sister has become a little different because sometimes they become dependent on. And that changes the brother sister relationship when you have to depend on each other, especially in the financial way and all these other ways. And so I give that space because I'm like, the parent. I'm like, you know what? Think about that. Think about that.

[Michelle Obama]

Ask a little bit. Right, right. Let's sit on that for a moment. And what about you?

[Gabrielle Union]

That age difference between him and his next oldest sister? You and Trigill are what, like, five years, Five years apart. So when I first met his family, the older sisters, who are closer in my age, immediately they got it good. Yeah, we're good in the hood. But, like, with Trigill, because that's. She has been the protector. She has been the watchdog. She has been the gatekeeper to keep him sane and to keep him, you know, doing everything he needs to do without interference from anybody. And I'm like, But I'm not. I'm not anybody.

[Michelle Obama]

I'm not just playing anybody. I just happen to be his wife.

[Gabrielle Union]

And I think, you know, before I got to the wife stage, like, we were just like, you know, the very beginning, and it was like, you know, I think him, you know, Trigill and his mom were like, what do you want?

[Michelle Obama]

Who are you?

[Gabrielle Union]

Who are you? You, older lady? What do you want? You know, what do you want?

[Michelle Obama]

You. You cougar, Cradle, like, rotting. Yeah. Like, what are you? Cradle, rotting.

[Dwyane Wade]

Switches.

[Gabrielle Union]

But I was like, actually, we both just got divorced, so we're kind of in the same space. Like, I didn't have a kid at 20. Like, I'm still childless. Like, and I'm not racing to do that. So I'm straight. I got my own bank account, so I'm good. I just. I just like him, you know, we'll see where it goes. But it. So it took. It took some years, really, to, like, you know, earn their trust and then also for them to earn my trust so we can be comfortable equally.

[Michelle Obama]

Right?

[Gabrielle Union]

And now, like, yeah, it's easy because we are all on the same side. So we, his mom and his sister Jaquel, we tend to have the same complaints about the same things that we then want to take to him. And how do you not see this? See me and your mama and your.

[Michelle Obama]

Sister, like, you know, but now you got some adults.

[Dwyane Wade]

She got reinforcements then.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Gabrielle Union]

And once she got married, once his sister Trigill got married, now, you know, now it's like, she gets it, you know, because she's coming into a relationship where he'd been married before and he has kids. And I was like, huh, it's not so easy, is it? Not so easy, is it? You know, but you know, you want that grace, you give that grace and eventually you receive that grace. So, yeah, yeah. But it's a learning curve for sure.

[Dwyane Wade]

Hey, everybody, Craig Robinson here. As you know, when we do these podcast recordings in la, I always ask my wife to get an Airbnb for me. But most importantly, I want the ones that are guest favorites for my stay. These are the most loved homes by other guests on Airbnb. And, you know, we've got some trips as a family set up for our kids AAU basketball tournaments, and they're in small all over the country. And we always book guest favorites when we go places that we haven't been before. That way you make sure you get something that the other guests find really appealing. So when you are planning your next trip, try guest favorites. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Cologuard, a non invasive colon cancer screening test. As it stands, colon cancer is on the rise in people under 50, which is why the American Cancer Society recommends that if you're at average risk, you begin screening at 45. Even if you live a healthy lifestyle and don't have symptoms, no one is at low risk for colon cancer. We want to make sure our listeners know that colon cancer can be treatable in nine out of 10 people. But the key here is that it has to be caught early. With the Cologuard test, you can take control of your colon cancer screening through a prescription based test with none of the prep that's required of a colonoscopy. Not only is the Cologuard test effective for colon cancer screening, but it can even detect pre cancer. And in addition to its convenience, the Cologuard test is also affordable. Most insured patients find they pay nothing out of pocket with zero downtime, no special preparation, and a screening test that's delivered right to your door. Don't let your health take a backseat. So if you're 45 or older and at average risk, ask your healthcare provider about screening for colon cancer with the Cologuard test. You can also request a Cologuard prescription [e-mail] podcast. The Cologuard test is intended to screen adults 45 and older at average risk for colorectal cancer. Do not use a Cologuard test if you have adenomas, have inflammatory bowel disease and certain hereditary syndromes or a personal or family history of colorectal cancer. The cologuard test is not a replacement for colonoscopy and high risk patients. Cologuard test performance in adults ages 45 to 49 is estimated based on a large clinical study of patients 50 and older. False positives and false negatives can occur. Cologuard is available by prescription only.

[Michelle Obama]

A family's, you know, complicated that's a.

[Dwyane Wade]

Perfect segue to the listener question because Charlotte needs a little bit of help with her sister and Natalie. Do you mind reading the question for us?

[Charlotte (listener)]

Yeah, I got a short little story, so bear with me. Hi Michelle and Craig. My name is Charlotte and I live in Tacoma, Washington. My sister and I have lived in the same city as one another since college and have always been close. We are both married with teenage kids. My sister's daughter is a couple of years younger than my kids. I love my niece, but she has been really challenging for my sister to parent. She has a ton of anger and is in therapy for it, but she takes a lot of these feelings out on my sister. She's also much meaner to her mom than her dad, and I suspect it's been hard on my sister's marriage. I wouldn't be surprised if the stress at home is affecting my sister at work or in her other close relationships, which brings me to my role in this. For a long time my sister talked to me about the fight she was having with my niece, but in the past year she's gotten noticeably distant. She avoids talking about anything going on in her family, and she's acted closed off and even standoffish if I go there. She's also been making increasingly rude comments at my expense, which I recognize is coming from stress, but it's still hurtful. So my question is, how do I support my sister, her family, and her daughter, especially when my sister won't even let me in? Do I allow things to stay surface level for a while and wait for it to get better? Or do I try to find a different way to talk to her? Is there anything different I can do to support her or even her daughter better while also protecting our bond? Thanks, Charlotte.

[Dwyane Wade]

Well, that's a question. So it sounds like Charlotte knows that there's something wrong. And my question is let's back up and figure out is it better to hit questions head on or beat around the bush and sort of subtly get.

[Gabrielle Union]

To the answer right between the eyes. Like let's Just get to it. Let's get to it. Nobody has, you know, oodles and noodles of time these days. You know, we all have families. Let me know. Because it could be something you could fix on a dime. Could be something you're just not really aware of. Could be your tone, things you can adjust. But in this situation, I first would wanna hear her sister's version of this. I wanna hear from the sister's husband. Cause it doesn't sound like the sister has a lot of support. But I would also say that it's probably way worse than what her sister has shared. And it sounds like it has gotten to a place where it is so, so humiliating and so embarrassing and so hurtful that it's embarrassing to share that. Especially if Charlotte's daughter is, you know, like, doesn't have a lot of problems. It just sounds like you're imagining a judgment that is not happening. Or maybe it is. That's another question that we would probably have for Charlotte's sister. You know what I mean? So you are like, I bet you they're judging me because that's how you're really thinking about yourself. So I would rather keep distance then feel your judgmental eyes or whatever it is that, you know, the sister's imagining that Charlotte's doing well.

[Michelle Obama]

And, like, you make a good point. We don't know the age dynamic is who's older, who's younger. You know, there's probably some history there of, you know, what that relationship has been.

[Gabrielle Union]

So, you know, and like, her taking shots at Charlotte. We gotta turn this around because there's too much heat on me. It's too much heat on me. And I'm going to redirect it where I think the judgment is coming from.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Gabrielle Union]

Except Charlotte's like. She feels like she's just taking strays because she's just trying to be supportive. But it's the assumption of judgment and, you know, ridicule and whatever that is happening to me in the sister's mind.

[Michelle Obama]

But in this situation, my advice would be you gotta pull your sister aside and have the conversations you didn't have. Because this is when bad dynamics get in the way of the future. Right. Because it's, you know, whatever is fueling that thing that's keeping Charlotte and her sister from being able to just have a straight up conversation. A kind of. Even though those conversations are hard. I mean, look, when Craig was going through his divorce from his first wife. I've said this time and time again, he did not tell me that they were Having problems. He did. You know, I thought they were the Cosby's, you know, I literally. So I went from. And I was close to my first sister in law, right? We were. We lived down the street from one another. So sometimes things are bad. And it's just as my brother said, he didn't want to pull us in because he didn't want us to start judging. And if things worked out and so on and so forth.

[Dwyane Wade]

If things worked out, she would never get over it.

[Michelle Obama]

But that wouldn't have been the case. I might have been mad, you know.

[Dwyane Wade]

But she wouldn't have gotten mad.

[Michelle Obama]

But that's why you need to have those conversations. Because it would have been better for him to come to me and say, mish, you know, I'm going to share something with you, but, you know, I need you to keep a cool head because I have to have a safe place to come. We've since had that conversation. And I think this is why in his second marriage, you know, we've approached the dynamic of brother and sister differently and our communication is different because I don't want him to ever think that he could be in any kind of harm and that I would judge him. I might. You know, I don't know how I'm gonna react if somebody's messing with my brother. My first reaction is, buck up. You know, I can't say that I'm not gonna be that way, but I'd rather, like, let me get through that, you know, so that we can then step in and have the conversation. That's why that dynamic is important. Because when stuff like this happens, you need your family. Because it could. Charlotte could be part of the solution to help her sister just be another voice at the table for her niece, you know, because sometimes you can hear you. You can hear from somebody else, which you cannot hear from your own parents, which is why the village is so important, you know? So I would say sit your sister down if you can. Try, try push through that. That. That pain or whatever it is and, And. And help her know that she can share with you whatever it is without judgment, and you're there to help.

[Craig Robinson]

I was in Utah and I had a speech to do. I thought I did.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, I'm sure you did.

[Craig Robinson]

And then your sister came out, and I realized that they was crying when she got done. You see that answer she just had?

[Dwyane Wade]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

That's how I felt in Utah. My perspective. I think we all could be right on our perspectives, and mine will come from an angle of watching my sister in law, when she's around her sister. Also, to my relationship with my sister, sometimes you gotta take it all the way back to the basics. And the basics to me is focus on your relationship just with your sister. Sometimes you just need your sister, you know, and provide that safe space as being a sister, not being the auntie, not being, you know, anyone who brings judgment. Just be that person that she can come to you and she want to talk to, because y' all have history and similar backgrounds. So I think sometimes when I see Traci light up, it's when her and Gab are just being sisters. It's not being auntie. It's not you not doing this, not doing that. It's when they just hanging out as sisters. And that allows for you to want to open up more so than feeling judgment from someone or with all these, you know, these emotions that we go through. And so I would just say, charlotte, just be a sister, you know, like you guys were when you grew up. Before it was husbands and kids and all the things, y' all was your sisters. Maybe more would come out then.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Dwyane Wade]

This makes me wonder, though. Is it ever okay as a sibling to go around your sibling and go directly to their kid and talk to.

[Craig Robinson]

Em.

[Dwyane Wade]

Or maybe go around the sibling and talk to her husband, Charlotte's husband or brother in law. Is that ever a good idea? And I can tell. I see the Gab face.

[Craig Robinson]

That's not for me.

[Gabrielle Union]

I mean, listen, if you really think someone is suffering, I will try everything that I'm gonna go directly to you. And if I feel like I'm getting shut down, but I still feel like, oh, you're circling the drain. Like, it could get to a danger zone. I will try every avenue to reach you, whether it be through a mutual friend, another relative, you know, we have a group chat that we call the Sanity Crew. And it's, you know, three of us couples, and we could take to the Sanity Crew.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, I like that.

[Gabrielle Union]

You know, Or I can go to anyone else in the Sanity Crew and be like, this is what's happening with me and Dee. Can you talk to him? Cause I don't think I. Either I'm not hearing him or I don't. Cause I don't get it.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Gabrielle Union]

Is there anything that you can do? So I'm not above doing that at all. Especially if it gets into, like, that danger zone where it's. They're kind of cutting off from everything. And, you know, like, when you're left to circle the drain on your own, it can get dark fast. But also, I'm okay with space. Like, let's give it a beat. And maybe she is being inundated not just by her sister, but by everyone who is a witness to this. And just a beat. And then just say, hey, you want to go get a drink? You want to go, you know, go to a museum? Just. You want to sit in the park? I'll go get some subs. And then it kind of takes the pressure off. It having to be about your kid or whatever. My perceived lack of support from her husband. Yeah. Kind of getting back to just, you know, but also space, you know, Like, I don't. Like if I feel like my back is to the wall. Give me a minute.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Gabrielle Union]

Maybe a few weeks. Yeah, yeah. So I can figure this out.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I. Dwayne, I like what you said about just sometimes being with people, you know, and it sounds like this family, Charlotte's family, they spend a lot of time together because they're having meals on a regular basis. They're in one another's homes enough that she sees what's happening with her niece. But when I think about what I might do in that situation, I would probably be cautious about saying something, especially if I'd gotten some pushback, but I would probably try to spend more time with my niece if I could. That just sort of just like, be a sister is like maybe just be an auntie, too, you know, so it doesn't feel like you're addressing a problem, but maybe this is a cry for help. And so maybe I can take her to lunch or maybe I can just pick her up and do something that seems innocuous or fun, where maybe this girl will open up to me in a different way, where she doesn't feel watched, or if you set up a regular session with her, like, let's go get our nails done. I'm just thinking, you know, you're 12. Why don't. Auntie, I'm gonna take you. We're gonna do something you like. I bet she likes getting her nails done, especially if she's being sassy. She probably got. Probably got acrylics, you know, so let's go. Sounds like that girl's got acrylics. So you'll take her to. She's snapping her nails at you. I bet she's got some nails to snap. So take her to get her nails done, you know, and sit and see if you can in a natural. Just sort of being way. Find out what's going on with your niece. I try to do that. I don't do it as much with your younger boys, because they're. I'm not with them as much, but with the older kids, you know, when we were in the White House, his older two, we'd always. Whenever they could, they would go on trips with us in the White House. You know, we would always make it a point to. Because the thought was, okay, we got these kids growing up in the White House and being on the world stage, they should know something about the world, right? And so usually on their breaks, that's when we would plan a big trip. You know, that's when we went to see the Pope or we went to South Africa or we went to the Great Wall or, you know, just so that these, you know, my girls would walk away from this experience with something more than paparazzi following them. Right. But we would always include Avery and Leslie and those times with grandma, you know, so I got a lot of good time with them on these long, amazing trips. Just, you know, a lot of times I'm working and come back into the room and they're playing uno or they're doing something silly with Grandma. But I'd like to think that. I know. For Leslie, for example, I know she knows that she can call me, you know, that she can text me. And I think that not just because I'm her aunt, but it's that time in. Because sometimes you gotta look a kid in the face and go, I see. I see you. And especially when your aunt is important and the first lady, you need to be able to say, no, no, no. Never too important for you. And I'm gonna say this in between seeing the queen and talking to the da, da, da. You're here, too. Come sit down. And not everybody has the platform of the White House, but there are versions of that, of making sure that the kids in your life know that you see them, so that when it's time, when they do fall short, when they are circling the drain, maybe. Maybe they'll just reach up for a lifeline, and maybe Charlotte can do some of that, a little of that. You know, I'm so curious.

[Gabrielle Union]

Who in their family is that person who can just pull that little girl up like. All right, knock it off. So let's. Let's get to it.

[Michelle Obama]

Like, what do we pull that little girl?

[Gabrielle Union]

What are we really. What are we really dealing with right now? You know what I mean? Like, and that, like, over nails or. But, like, there's. I'm trying to think of who our.

[Michelle Obama]

Cut the s. Person Is that's not you gab?

[Gabrielle Union]

No, not with anybody's kids. Like, you know, like. No. I tend to be, you know, a little more judgmental. They're definitely not coming to me first. But, like, you've done that. You did that with. Don't look too far like you did it with Torrin.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Gabrielle Union]

You did it with my nephew Torrin.

[Craig Robinson]

I think the going back to what I said is, you know, I'm not trying to come in and be a specialist. Kids don't want a specialist. And so if you ask me to talk to Torren, I'm not gonna talk to Torren about what you want me to talk to him about and not the way that you want me to talk to him. Because I'm just coming in as a specialist at this point. He's not gonna share anything with me or be open and honest. And so I have to take a whole different approach. And I gotta be uncle. I gotta be somebody who actually understands. Sometimes we come in and the way we sang it, it don't feel like we understand that. We've been there before. And so, yeah, it's a different approach.

[Dwyane Wade]

It really is. And as a parent, as a father, you have to be the bad cop a lot. So when you try and come in and try and be the good cop, it just doesn't work. So I need Mish to, all right, come ease in and take some of the load off of this kid. Cause he's catching it from me. Or it's somebody in our communities, either another family member or one of our good friends who also knows the kids who can come in and be like. Well, you know, just like you're saying you can't come in as a special. That's a wonderful way of putting it.

[Michelle Obama]

You coming in as a specialist.

[Dwyane Wade]

You can't just come in as the point guard telling guys what to do. You're the captain of the team. You gotta come in and be a teammate and say, I'm suffering through stuff too, and what else?

[Craig Robinson]

I'm in it with you.

[Dwyane Wade]

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's helpful for Charlotte. But what are some other strategies we can give Charlotte? You know, that's what I'm. I mean. Cause every family is different. And by us on the outside looking in, it's kind of tough. But I really feel like it doesn't have to be the people who are asking the questions. You know, like you said, there's gotta be somebody in their community, in their village who can help.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, what I think about is, you know, and this doesn't help Charlotte in the immediate future. But if people are listening, you know, it sort of reinforces the importance of establishing a good sibling dynamic.

[Gabrielle Union]

Right?

[Michelle Obama]

Because, you know, as I try to tell my girls, you guys are all you have, really. You know, and sometimes it's like, so before the problem gets where it is for Charlotte and her sister, where they aren't communicating, whatever that dynamic was, let's step back and just sort of talk about why it's important to parent and how do you parent your kids to have a good dynamic, you know? Cause a lot of times bad sibling dynamic stems from some. Something some parent did. You know, I always talk about the fact that I think that one of the things that helps our dynamic is that we're opposite genders, you know, and brother, sister, especially little sister. I always looked up to him, you know, even though I know my mother loves her black son way more. You know, I mean, I joke about this. She didn't love him more, but there's just black mother dynamic of Craig. Craig, Craig. You know, he said I could. You know, I was like, mom, I'm the first lady. What more do I have to do?

[Dwyane Wade]

That's how I'm here.

[Michelle Obama]

She's like, craig's here.

[Craig Robinson]

He was. Craigie, Craig.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, Craig. And Craig's in the house. I'm like, oh, okay, we still going there. But, you know, I was a fan, too. And I think a lot of that is, you know, if he were a girl, I'd probably hate him with that dynamic, you know? Cause he was the beloved older, you know, sibling. And, you know, sometimes parents set that up, thinking, well, you should be more like X. And you shouldn't be, you know, using the other child to help parent the other one, setting up. You know, I want to talk a little bit about that, because, you know, there are a lot of people who are parenting siblings. There are a lot of people. How do we avoid that dynamic from happening? And how. How do you. How do we think about parenting differently? Because I tried never to compare my daughters as girls. I tried to avoid even, for example, having conversations about grades at the table. Right? Or who did what better, you know, not to say that we couldn't reward, but I tried never to. Well, you tell us, and now you report out because the younger sibling is always catching up to the older one, you know, But I was. I always tried to be mindful of that, especially with two girls, of, how do I love them both, parent them both, but keep my parenting neutral enough that they don't feel like, they're competing with one another. But I think about that to this day to make sure that that doesn't happen. I don't know about how you guys think about that.

[Gabrielle Union]

I mean, there's three girls in our house, and my parents, initially they were like, we're going to have four years between the first and second with the thought of as we have to start paying for college. One's still in high school, and by the time that one is out of, you know, so they could afford it, perhaps. My little sister who came seven years after me, I said, accident. They said, no. It was a plan. But it created such a weird space dynamic where my older sister became like a mom. You know what I mean? My older sister was doing all of the parent type of stuff at a younger age because both my parents worked and did overtime. And, you know, they were both going to college when we were very young. So she, like, a lot fell on her, and it never changed, like, to this day, you know what I mean? Like, my sister is the one, you know, with my dad at skilled nursing and, you know, making sure everything, like, every day, in addition to going to work, in addition to her kids and her new grandchild, it's kind of never ended. And then I kind of got to be sort of free, you know what I mean? Like, I had. There was no expectation of me to do anything but get good grades. And then my little sister was kind of like. It was sort of at the. Towards the end of their, you know, the good years of their marriage. So she just kind of became this extra person, you know, I mean, not that she was parenting herself, but it just was very different. Very different. Like, my little sister still gets on my mom's lap, and, you know, my mom rocks her. You know what I mean? Still. And I just kind of had to figure out, you know, I leaned much heavier on my friends. They were a much bigger influence. But somehow, because they probably thought, ugh, the middle child is getting nothing. They ended up giving me more. More attention, more special time. And then it kind of, according to them, I sort of emerged as the favorite. Yeah, but it's really kind of like, you're watching, you're observant. And I'm like, okay, my dad's super. Always wanted a boy. I'm going to be the closest thing to, you know, a boy that he can have. Like, right. I'm giving. I'm doing all the sports. I'm learning the IBAC formation. Like, I know Nebraska football backwards and forwards. But then my mom is like, very, you know, cultured. And she likes museums and, you know, all of that. I'm like, bet I'm there. Like, I become a history buff. Like, you know, we used to go to the newsstand and buy newspapers from around the world. And, you know, so I tried to appeal to, you know, you kind of appeal to their ego.

[Michelle Obama]

The politician. You were in the middle and you had. Also temperamentally, you had that ability. I'd say this to Barack, when it comes to, you know, our oldest, Malia is very much. She. She is. She's gonna figure out what. Who you are, what do you like? And let's discuss. Right. Unusual. She's always been that way. You know, I used to say Barack was like. When Malia was a teenager, it wasn't like she was going out any less or doing anything differently. She would tell me, I'm going out this weekend, but I'm gonna go in and give dad, like, 15 minutes. And she'd go into the Treaty room and tell me about Syria. Oh, wow. Really? Oh, that must be. And then she'd be like, okay, well, I'm gone. Barack would come out of the Treaty.

[Dwyane Wade]

Room going, I just poked out.

[Michelle Obama]

I just had an amazing conversation with Malia, you know, And I'm like, okay. You know, And Sasha is like a cat. She's like, don't touch me. Don't pet me. I'm not pleasing you. You come to me, you know, And Barack's like, well, she's difficult. I was like, no, the. The. The first one was a pleaser. Right? And it was just temperamentally, they're still like that. Right? So, you know, if you're not sort of understanding the temperament. So you were probably temperamentally somebody who just understood people dynamic in a different way. Right.

[Gabrielle Union]

You have to be a chameleon.

[Michelle Obama]

You have to be a chameleon. And if you can be a chameleon, you know, but some people parent to one child or one personality child, but then you have three.

[Gabrielle Union]

Yeah. You know, they parented. I think towards me.

[Dwyane Wade]

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[Gabrielle Union]

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[Dwyane Wade]

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[Craig Robinson]

Let me go to what Craig and I know. We know sports. And so you know, I've saw coaches try that when one person mess up, the whole team suffers, right? And then I've saw, you know, teams where the best player on the team is exempt from what the others have to do. And so one I don't know if it's the right answer to this. Right. But what I do know when it comes to the bending of the team, what we've responded more to is when we all get the same punishments when this, you know, and I've been on teams where we had the big three in the little 12. I've had teams where we haven't. And when three is pushed up and others are not, you feel some resentment there. And you can see it and feel it. And so then it becomes on the leaders to like, how to go back and be like, no, I'm not. And so I think from a sports standpoint, just, you know, when it comes to the parenting side of it is the work will show. Right. If coach is treating us all the same, how do I get. How do I get more? Is gonna. I'm gonna do more work. And so I think when it comes to parenting, you know, it's coming in understanding that they're all individual. But, you know, here's the. Here's the rules and here's the regulations, and you're gonna show me me what you deserve and what you should have, not, you know, not anything else. And it's going to be from your work. And that's kind of how, you know, I approached a relationship with. You know, I've had a son since I was 23, all the way down to Cobb at 6. I approach a relationship with each one of them as individuals, but also, too, I love Cobb. That's my baby. But I'm on her, too. Because your work has to show when you want certain things. If not, man, we don't get those. And so I go split.

[Gabrielle Union]

We just had this heated discussion the other day, you know. Cause he's never raised girls, and I grew up with three girls. And you can see how our father spoke to us and how he. The tones he used and the analogies, how it's impacted all of us to this day when it comes to the men in our lives and the choices we've made surrounding men. And so I'm like, okay, feels a little harsh. Feels a little harsh. But also trying to figure out what is the balance. Like, how do you break them of a habit without breaking them? And it's a very delicate balance. And each kid is so different, so different. And Kav, like, you know, I came into the rescue and wrong answer, wrong answer. And it came back to bite me very fast. Car became so fast. And I don't even remember what I said to her that caused her to be staring me down all day Sunday. I don't remember, I told her to, I don't know, share, Stop doing something. We had a little play date or whatever, and she was like.

[Michelle Obama]

She gave you the look.

[Gabrielle Union]

Hours.

[Michelle Obama]

Hours.

[Gabrielle Union]

She's on the trampoline across the yard.

[Dwyane Wade]

So is it. So is. Is. Is it different? You can tell. You can coach her a certain way, but you can't.

[Craig Robinson]

I don't know if I can't. I am.

[Dwyane Wade]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I am.

[Craig Robinson]

And it has to start, you know, and she's six, and so. And I'm her basketball coach right now. Right. I'm the one who's training her. And I told her mom, I said her, and our relationship is gonna be a little different because the things I'm gonna. The things she's gonna have to do to wanna be a great athlete. When she said, oh, I wanna be better than Angie Reese.

[Michelle Obama]

Okay, you say that.

[Craig Robinson]

I hear you. And so the things you're gonna. That you're gonna have to do, you're not gonna want to do. And so, yeah, my tone gonna be a little different than your mom's. You know, I'm gonna look at. Our conversation's gonna be a little different. And so I believe from my understanding, she respects it. You know, she respects the way that I communicate. But she don't like it. But I can see her right away. When we get done with that moment, she comes, we hug. She's not staring me down. We on the couch. So it's a different dynamic that we have not said. Her mom needs to have that dynamic, but this is how this is gonna go. I'm coach that.

[Dwyane Wade]

Yeah. Yeah. But to get back to Charlotte, it really feels like she should be focused first on her relationship with her sister.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. I think we all agree, first and foremost. Yeah. Cause that's the thing she can control. Right. And control is a strong word, but it's the. It's the closest and most real relationship in this dynamic, you know? So I think we all. We all agree at this table, in our opinion.

[Dwyane Wade]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Gabrielle Union]

I want to. I want to be there for, like, Easter.

[Michelle Obama]

I know.

[Gabrielle Union]

Really, the next family gathering. I want to know what advice she took, what direction she went in.

[Michelle Obama]

I know.

[Craig Robinson]

My advice, right?

[Michelle Obama]

Really? She's like, they were all wrong. That's okay. Charlotte.

[Dwyane Wade]

This is the perfect time to figure out some tips that we can give Charlotte to navigate through this.

[Gabrielle Union]

Oh, my gosh.

[Michelle Obama]

Okay.

[Dwyane Wade]

The first tip that we all agreed on is that work on your relationship with your sister, though. So that's why.

[Michelle Obama]

And just the sister relationship, not the I'm taking care of you. I'm gonna fix it. I'm gonna. It's just you and me just being.

[Dwyane Wade]

Yeah, yeah. And any. Any. Anything else come to mind?

[Craig Robinson]

She says space. We talk. We talked about space.

[Gabrielle Union]

Space.

[Craig Robinson]

Talking about space.

[Gabrielle Union]

Space.

[Craig Robinson]

That's a good tip. Siblings need it.

[Dwyane Wade]

Yeah.

[Gabrielle Union]

And also, Charlotte, this is a good, you know, time to be a little introspective. Like, is there something that you are doing, Charlotte, that could be the thing that doesn't allow your sister to want to. To tell you. As my husband has pointed out numerous times with me and my little sister, I had to check myself because I'm not. I'm not the warm and fuzzy. Come to me with your problems. I'm the person you come to when you're ready to solve it. But the listening and the, you know, getting to know, like, how this, you know, the situation started. No, that's not me. But I had to check myself. Why doesn't you tell me anything? Maybe it's the tone that you're speaking and I had to come to have a. Come to Jesus with myself.

[Craig Robinson]

Or maybe it's what we talk about, right? Like, sometimes. And a good friend of us told us this. Lauren. She came over and told us this. Sometimes when people tell you stuff, they just want you to listen. They don't really want your advice. Sometimes. And I think it's trying to find, like, do you want, like. And we had this conversation. Do you want my advice or do you just want me to listen? And sometimes, because of our positions, we give us so much advice. Charlotte's sister may not want your advice. She just may want you to just be there.

[Dwyane Wade]

That's a great point.

[Craig Robinson]

Listen, you know, and not always give your two cents.

[Michelle Obama]

Excellent.

[Dwyane Wade]

Anything else? Any more tips?

[Michelle Obama]

No, I think that's pretty thorough. I think the overall, my message to the listening audience is let's start with the thinking about how we parent our children as siblings, that, you know, what choices as parents are we making that can affect that dynamic? And is that something that we as parents can look at in terms of how we talk to our children, how we compare them, how we set them up? Because if we want our kids to have this foundation and this relationship going forward, it starts when they're little. And it oftentimes is very impacted by how parents parent. And that's just as important as what you do to the individual is how do you. How do. How do you create the bond among your children that. That requires work and thought and time and intention.

[Gabrielle Union]

Yeah. Consistency.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, you guys, thank you for this.

[Gabrielle Union]

Thank you.

[Craig Robinson]

Thank you guys.

[Gabrielle Union]

Giving us a lot to think about.

[Michelle Obama]

No, really.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. Touched on some things.

[Gabrielle Union]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

That's great. Thank you.

[Dwyane Wade]

And able to help Charlotte. But yeah, no, this is great. You guys are the best. Appreciate it.

[Michelle Obama]

And good luck with all the. All the things.

[Dwyane Wade]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

And stay ready to go.

[Gabrielle Union]

Yes, we stay ready. So we got to get ready.

[Michelle Obama]

Let's go.

[Craig Robinson]

Time Foreign.

[Michelle Obama]

I'm Hoda Kotb from Making Space. Okay. You and I are both on the other side of the jump, whether it is life after the White House or in my case, life after the Today Show. So what has this new chapter taught you? About starting something new at any stage, about being a beginner again? I would encourage all your listeners to embrace those transitions, to practice them. It's a muscle. And not to run away from change, but to embrace it as much as possible and turn that into something really special. There's a lot of learning that happens on the other side of our fear of change, and I'm living proof of that.

[Dwyane Wade]

You know, nothing keeps me sharper these days as somebody who's getting up there in years than doing something completely new and foreign. And with Misha and I doing imo, it gives me particularly an opportunity to do something that is completely outside of my wheelhouse of experience that I've had before now.

[Michelle Obama]

Please give Making Space a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, and make sure you tell your friends, follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening right now.