Surrender to the Process with Jon Batiste and Suleika Jaouad

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Surrender to the Process"

Podcast: IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson
Episode: Surrender to the Process with Jon Batiste and Suleika Jaouad
Date: January 28, 2026
Host: Higher Ground

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Overview

In this uplifting and vulnerable episode, Michelle Obama and her brother Craig Robinson sit down with creative power couple Jon Batiste (musician, composer, bandleader) and Suleika Jaouad (writer, artist, cancer survivor). The conversation traces their unique upbringings, creative processes, and experiences with adversity—both personal and familial—culminating in wisdom on surrendering to life’s unpredictable journey. The episode centers around how to remain authentic, resilient, and connected, even in the face of uncertainty, illness, and creative doubt.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins and Upbringing

• Suleika’s Multicultural Childhood

  • First-generation American with Tunisian and Swiss parents; moved often until age 12 ([05:28]-[05:42])
  • Navigated feelings of being a misfit and played the "translator" for her family into American culture ([19:43])
  • “As beautiful and enriching as it was to have this multicultural, interfaith household, I think as a little kid, all you want is to be normal. You wanna fit in.” —Suleika [06:03]

• Jon’s New Orleans Family & Musical Roots

  • Grew up in a musical family, with encouragement from his mother to try various pursuits before focusing on piano ([13:36]-[14:23])
  • “My mom…would always come home with a new offering of tutelage for us… But you are a piano player. And I’m gonna take you to these lessons every Saturday morning.” —Jon [14:13]

2. The Meeting: Band Camp Origins & Reconnection

• Suleika and Jon meet at band camp in Saratoga Springs as pre-teens ([07:09]-[07:29])
  • Jon, shy and reserved; Suleika, more outgoing
• Memorable Observations
  • “I saw Suleika wearing Birkenstocks. That was the first time I saw somebody wearing Birkenstocks.” —Jon [07:22]
  • “At the end of summer recital, Jon played a solo and it was like the entire audience took in a collective inhale.” —Suleika [12:23]
• Reconnected by chance on a NYC subway in their teens
  • “I turned to my friend Michelle and I said, I know that guy. That’s Jon Batiste from band camp. And then out of nowhere, I said, that’s the man I’m going to marry someday.” —Suleika [32:28]-[32:41]

3. Identity, Assimilation, and Coming of Age

• Navigating Multiple Cultures

  • Suleika describes feeling responsible for helping her family assimilate and dealing with the complexities of cultural identity, including the balancing act of fitting in at school ([19:43]-[22:44])
  • Kept lists of American idioms to fit in, e.g., “talk to the hand” ([21:38]-[22:04])

• Accepting Misfit Status

  • Both guests reflect on moments they stopped trying to fit in and embraced their uniqueness (“being smart is actually the coolest thing I can do”—Suleika [24:36])

• No Final Arrival

  • “I’m now of the opinion that life is just a series of coming of age arcs. There’s no ‘there’ there where you get to a place and you’re like, this is who I am, this is what I’m doing.” —Suleika [28:22]

4. Creative Process, Music, and Inevitability

• The Divine Nature of Music
  • “There’s a power to what we do. It comes from the divine stream of consciousness where all creative comes from. And we’re the vessel… each note and the next note… it's inevitable.” —Jon [27:03]
  • On not commodifying or manipulating art: “When we’re true to that, there’s a purity to that connection.” —Jon [27:03]
• Defining “Social Music” and “Stay Human” Band
  • Jon shares his philosophy for music that draws on varied folk traditions and aims to foster connection ([35:39]-[36:20])
  • “It was performance attire, but it was more than that. It was a form of expressing the identity… discovering in the sound, in the look.” —Jon on his early style [34:51]
• Suleika’s Creativity During Illness
  • After her leukemia diagnosis, Suleika began a journaling project that led to a published column ([28:22]-[29:41])
  • “While I couldn’t be a war correspondent in the way I thought, I was reporting from the front lines of my hospital bed.” —Suleika [29:22]

5. Building a Life Together Amidst Illness and Uncertainty

• Their Approach to Partnership
  • Early in their relationship, Jon and Suleika wrote letters to each other to deepen their understanding and connection ([42:01]-[43:47])
  • “You just decide that we’re in it. However it needs to be set up, and it’s going to be ever evolving… you got to know that the person you’re with is not going to quit.” —Jon [40:39]
  • “There’s no longer that question of, am I in or am I out? But if this is the person I’m going to be with, how do I move forward as productively as possible?” —Suleika [42:01]
  • They integrate Suleika’s illness without letting it define their relationship.

6. Journaling as Self-Discovery and Daily Practice

• The Book of Alchemy
  • Suleika explains her new book about journaling, featuring prompts and essays ([45:42]-[46:53])
  • “I’m of the opinion that there are no rules when it comes to journaling…” —Suleika [47:44]
• Michelle and Craig’s Personal Practices
  • Michelle shares she kept oral “journals” (recorded, transcribed interviews) during the White House years, which became essential to writing her book Becoming ([47:56]-[50:52])
  • “When life is moving so fast… you don’t remember any of your teens. And a lot of that is because you’ve packed so much life in.” —Michelle [49:53]
  • Craig reflects on keeping a small memory book after his mother’s passing ([47:56])

7. Audience Question: Illness, Family, and Self-Care

• Listener Sharon asks about balancing her multiple sclerosis with caring for her daughter and self ([51:43])
• Impact of Parental Illness on Michelle & Craig
  • Growing up with their father's disability made Michelle more aware of vulnerability, while for Craig it created “a place of fear” ([52:34]-[54:07])
• Self-Care Lessons from Illness
  • Suleika, as both patient and caregiver, stresses making space for fear but not letting it dominate: “You have to actively figure out how to be in relationship with the fear that’s there because it’s there.” ([56:43])
  • Recommends starting each day with a “to feel list” before a to-do list—clarifying desires and self-care ([58:08])
  • Jon: “You don’t have to martyr yourself in service of those you love. In fact, that’s a disservice to those you love.” ([60:57])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Assimilation:
  “I felt like the translator of, you know, this American culture that we were trying to assimilate into… I felt this maybe outsized sense of responsibility to get everybody on board, as if assimilation was some kind of family project.”
  —Suleika Jaouad [19:43]

• On Journaling for Self-Understanding:
  “I don’t even know what I’m thinking or feeling until I start writing it down. And it takes me a page to get through all the emotions to actually get to the heart of the thing.”
  —Suleika Jaouad [45:20]

• On Music’s Inevitability:
  “When we’re true to that [divine stream of creativity], there’s a purity to the expression… it's inevitable. It’s the only thing that could have happened…”
  —Jon Batiste [27:03]

• On Facing Uncertainty Together:
  “You just decide that we’re in it… it’s ever evolving. You got to know that the person you’re with is not going to quit.”
  —Jon Batiste [40:39]

• On Living with Illness:
  “When you’ve had the ceiling cave in on you, you no longer assume structural stability. You’re kind of living on fault lines, and that can make it hard to push yourself out into the world.”
  —Suleika Jaouad [56:43]

• On Self-Care as an Act of Love:
  “Sometimes the best way to care for someone is to model care by caring for yourself… It’s not selfish or indulgent to take a moment for yourself. It’s actually a way of giving permission to the other people in your radius to do the same thing for themselves.”
  —Suleika Jaouad [62:07]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [05:28] Suleika on her multicultural upbringing
• [07:09] Meeting at band camp
• [13:36] Jon’s early musical journey
• [19:43] Suleika on being the “translator” for her family in the US
• [24:36] Accepting intelligence as identity
• [27:03] Jon explains music as “inevitable”
• [28:22] Suleika on her leukemia diagnosis and transformation
• [32:28] Suleika’s subway “premonition” about marrying Jon
• [35:39] Jon’s “social music” and creative independence
• [42:01] Jon/Suleika on journaling together as a couple
• [45:42] Suleika’s Book of Alchemy and journaling philosophy
• [51:43] Audience question about living with illness and caring for family
• [54:07] Craig and Michelle on their father’s disability
• [58:08] Suleika’s “to feel list” for daily priorities
• [60:57] Jon on self-care as a practice

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Episode Tone

Warm, insightful, candid, and playful—genuine curiosity and humor run throughout, mixed with hard-won wisdom and vulnerability. The group maintains a supportive, honest atmosphere, with moments of laughter, empathy, and deep reflection.

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers a heartfelt lesson in how to surrender to the process of life, find resilience amid uncertainty, and honor both our roots and ever-evolving selves. Jon and Suleika’s perspectives—infused with artistry, adversity, and authentic love—pair beautifully with Michelle and Craig’s own family wisdom, demonstrating the power of creativity, self-care, and candid communication in navigating life’s biggest challenges.

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For more on journaling and self-reflection, check out Suleika’s “The Book of Alchemy” and Michelle’s approach to self-discovery in “Becoming.”

Transcript

[Michelle Obama]

Well, let's get it going.

[Craig Robinson]

So we're here to help.

[John Batiste]

Oh, you guys.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, we're all here to participate.

[John Batiste]

A jingle. Jangle jangle.

[Suleika Jawad]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

What you got for imo? Yeah.

[Suleika Jawad]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

Ah, yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

This is imo.

[John Batiste]

I am moved. Michelle and Craig show.

[Craig Robinson]

I am old.

[John Batiste]

Michelle and Craig show.

[Michelle Obama]

This episode is brought to you by theraflu.

[John Batiste]

How are you?

[Craig Robinson]

I'm good.

[Michelle Obama]

Craig Robinson.

[Craig Robinson]

Exciting day today.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I wanna sort of get right into this day. Cause we've got two guests today and.

[Craig Robinson]

You know these two and I'm just getting to know them.

[Michelle Obama]

So dear, dear friends, we've gotten to know them. Worked. As people might know that we were co producers of American Symphony.

[Craig Robinson]

Wonderful piece of work. And I'm not just saying that because I'm related to you, but talk about.

[Michelle Obama]

Two creative forces in so many different ways. I want to hear about how they met, so I'm really excited. But Craig, you are always in charge of doing the proper introduction.

[Craig Robinson]

Yes, I am going to do a proper introduction. So. Suleiqa Jawad is a writer, artist and author of the New York Times bestselling memoirs, the Book of A Creative Practice for an Inspired Life. And Between Two Kingdoms. She writes the number one literature newsletter on substack, the Isolation Journals. And In November of 2025 she released the Alchemy Journal, a companion piece to the book of Alchemy. Along with husband John Batiste, Zuleika is the subject of the Oscar nominated and Grammy award winning documentary American Symphony. And John Baptiste is a seven time Grammy award winning Grammy Academy award and Emmy award winning singer, songwriter and composer. His ninth studio album, Big Money is nominated for three 2026 Grammy Awards.

[Michelle Obama]

Just keeps racking them up.

[Craig Robinson]

Including best Americana album. In 2021, Batiste released We Are, an album that carried nine Grammy nominations and five wins including album of the year. Batiste's accolades also include an Academy Award for Pixar's soul and seven year tenure as bandleader and musical director of the Late show with Stephen Colbert. So without further ado, let's introduce John and Suleika. Come on out, come on out.

[Michelle Obama]

Welcome to imo. My dear, dear friend. How are you? Thank you for being here. You guys settle in.

[Craig Robinson]

Oh, can you squeeze in there?

[Suleika Jawad]

We've been looking forward to this.

[John Batiste]

Yeah, all the way up.

[Michelle Obama]

Thank you guys.

[Craig Robinson]

Now I wanted to be in here, put this. I didn't know if I should put this in the official bio, but also fellow Princeton grad.

[Suleika Jawad]

Well, yeah, that's right.

[John Batiste]

Sulaika is like a legend on the campus. When we went over there, you graduated top of your class. You showed them a thing or two.

[Suleika Jawad]

It's a. You know, I think we both grew up in households where education was the priority, but we also had these. These musical paths. And so for me, I actually did not graduate from high school. I thought I was going to be a musician. Ended up realizing very quickly that that path was not for me.

[Michelle Obama]

What was it about that path that made you realize quickly?

[Suleika Jawad]

So the deal with my parents was that I could drop out of high school to go to pre college Juilliard, where we both went. And I had to take at least two days worth of college classes at the nearby campus in my hometown. And for the first time in my life, I had the freedom to study anything I wanted. And so I was taking classes like Women in Literature and a class on Nabokov and Modern Dance. And I realized how much I loved the expansiveness of just being able to leaf through a course catalog and get to just imagine all the possibilities. And that music, as much as I loved it, felt narrow. And as a bass player and a classical musician, there wasn't a lot of opportunity there for me. So that's how I ended up making that change. And I'm glad for it.

[Michelle Obama]

Can you talk about your childhood? Growing up? You have an interesting, eclectic, diverse, multicultural experience. Can you talk a bit more about it?

[Suleika Jawad]

Yeah. So I'm first generation American. My dad is Tunisian, my mom is Swiss. We grew up moving around quite a bit until the age of 12 and settled in a small town in upstate New York.

[Michelle Obama]

What was the reason for the moves?

[Suleika Jawad]

I think they were both trying to kind of find their place. All of our family is in Switzerland and Tunisia. But the job opportunity for my dad, who was a college professor, was here in the US and so I think, like a lot of kids who grow up first generation in an immigrant household, there's the culture you live in at home, and then there's the culture outside of school. So I remember on the first day of kindergarten showing up and not speaking a word of English and feeling very much like an outsider. My brother was in ESL and English as a second language, and he came home from school one day and said to my mom, I'm the dumbest kid in my class. And she said, you're not dumb. You just don't know the language yet. And so, as beautiful and enriching as it was to have this multicultural, interfaith household, I think as a little kid, all you want is to be normal. You wanna Fit in. And so it took me a long time to embrace that feeling of being a misfit. But John and I actually met in that town upstate when we were about 12, 13 years old.

[Craig Robinson]

This is the band camp, right?

[Suleika Jawad]

At the band camp, the infamous band camp.

[Michelle Obama]

How did you wind up at the band camp?

[John Batiste]

Saratoga Springs.

[Michelle Obama]

That's up there.

[John Batiste]

Saratoga Springs is not New Orleans, Louisiana.

[Michelle Obama]

That's right.

[John Batiste]

I'm telling you, it was. I remember going there and I saw Sulaika wearing Birkenstocks. That was the first time I saw somebody wearing Birkenstocks.

[Michelle Obama]

A 12 year old.

[John Batiste]

It was. I was, dang. This is like very granola hippie vibes in the woods. I heard about this.

[Suleika Jawad]

This vibe, interesting.

[John Batiste]

But it was. It was Don McCormick, a family friend of ours. And, you know, now it's just somebody so special in our life. But at the time, he was the guy who would come to our high school and scout, who's the next one. New Orleans always produces these great musicians. Who's the young kid that we should look out for? And he came down one summer, I was in 9th or 10th grade. And he came to the class and they pointed to me. And I was too afraid to play because I was very shy as a kid. Even up in the high school, I didn't like to be. I still. That's a whole nother conversation.

[Michelle Obama]

But we'll get there.

[John Batiste]

When we got to the time to play, I said, no, I don't.

[Suleika Jawad]

No.

[John Batiste]

So he couldn't pick me because he didn't hear me. And he went, picked somebody else from the class or somebody in the neighborhood. And he came back the next summer. He said, now I've been hearing about you for a year. You gotta play. You just gotta play for me. And I played for him. And then I get accepted to this camp. The first time I'm leaving home, seeing something for myself without the influence of my parents or my big sister or my cousins or whatever.

[Craig Robinson]

Right?

[John Batiste]

It was life changing. Camp is a deep. This is a veiled advertisement for band camp.

[Michelle Obama]

Everybody.

[John Batiste]

You might. You meet your person and you see the world.

[Michelle Obama]

Pretty girl in Birkenstocks.

[John Batiste]

I'm saying everybody, everybody loves Sulayka.

[Craig Robinson]

From the first, everybody to camp, but no sparks there. You just met.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, you all were 12.

[John Batiste]

Yeah, we're kids.

[Suleika Jawad]

I was 12, John was 13, 14. Yeah, no sparks. You were too shy really to talk to me.

[Michelle Obama]

Was this band camp? Was band camp sleep away? Talk about, were there bunks? Were there bathrooms? Were you all just carrying around your cellos or did you swim?

[Craig Robinson]

Were there bathrooms? What do you mean?

[Michelle Obama]

When they're bathrooms, a lot of times they don't, you know, you've got an outhouse situation.

[Listener Sharon]

Right.

[Craig Robinson]

Wait, what year is this?

[Michelle Obama]

Was it a camping experience or was it. Were you at a school on a college.

[Suleika Jawad]

It's true.

[Michelle Obama]

And then there's.

[John Batiste]

It was sleepaway, but we were in the dorms.

[Michelle Obama]

Okay.

[John Batiste]

It was like.

[Michelle Obama]

Okay, you were in the dorm.

[Craig Robinson]

I think that'd be someplace for the instruments.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, I don't know. They might have them dusted out by the campfire. I don't know. Just started trying to get a feel for it.

[Craig Robinson]

She really did graduate from Princeton.

[John Batiste]

She really did. You're wrong. You're wrong, Craig.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh my goodness.

[John Batiste]

For me, it kind of was like that, though. It was kind of like the boonies.

[Suleika Jawad]

Well, so there was a jazz camp, which John was in. There was an orchestra camp, which I went to and I got an A camp.

[Craig Robinson]

Got it.

[Michelle Obama]

I got it. So this was a college camp, not a college campus.

[Suleika Jawad]

Sleep in the dorms? No. Outhouses? No, no. But I remember John was so shy that I really don't think we spoke to each other. We met.

[Michelle Obama]

Cause. Was he talking to anybody?

[Suleika Jawad]

No.

[Michelle Obama]

Did you. You just came. What were you doing? What did you think when you got. Did you get dropp or were you just giving a ticket?

[John Batiste]

You know, I've been working. I've been working in the last. We've been talking about this for some years, but I've been working actively to remember the first 15 years of my life because it's all a blur.

[Michelle Obama]

Why is that?

[John Batiste]

I remember certain things, but I think I was doing some processing, some observing, some process and checking out what's happening and trying to understand how to engage with the world and engage with my talents and engage with all the things that it felt like every other week. I was evolving into something that I didn't even quite know where it was going. So I was trying to figure that out. But what was your. On the other hand was always.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, she was always her. This fabulous specimen here.

[John Batiste]

It's unbelievable. Just always so eloquent and charismatic. I remember she was going through the woods with the Birkenstocks in the bass.

[Suleika Jawad]

On my way to the outhouse.

[Michelle Obama]

Okay, you guys, it's not funny anymore.

[John Batiste]

No.

[Suleika Jawad]

But what I remember about John, he really was in his own world. But that end of summer recital, John played a solo and it was like the entire audience took in a collective inhale. You'd been playing piano for a year or two. At that point, not very long. Two years.

[John Batiste]

Yeah. When I started at the. Whoa.

[Craig Robinson]

So what did you have to play in order for him to hear you? Were you playing a different instrument or were you just playing the piano?

[Suleika Jawad]

He'd been playing piano for a year the first time he came, maybe.

[John Batiste]

Yeah, yeah. So I started going to this. The New Orleans center for the Creative Arts. Great. You know, lot of relatives went there, a lot of the great musicians, jazz particularly. So when I started going to noka, I was about a year into me playing the piano. So by the time I was at the camp, I was maybe two years in, I started playing piano. I was 11 or 12 years old, so about 13, 14. I had a. Been playing for about a year or two. And.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah, self taught or sort of family osmosis from royalty.

[Michelle Obama]

New Orleans music royalty. They were pretty solid in music.

[John Batiste]

There was a lot of musicians growing up. There's a lot we were hearing. You know, my dad was my first musical mentor, but it was actually my mom who. She's just. She has a clairvoyance to her. She has a deeply dedicated, intelligent woman. But I remember when we were kids, she would always come home with a new offering of tutelage for us to partake in lessons, tennis lessons, gymnastics, coding. You can go to this chess camp, but you are a piano player. And I'm gonna take you to these lessons every Saturday morning. And if you like it, we can continue.

[Michelle Obama]

How did she know you were a piano player? That was the clairvoyance with her. Got it, got it.

[John Batiste]

She saw it.

[Michelle Obama]

What was it like with your siblings?

[John Batiste]

I mean, Sulaika is the older sister and I'm the younger brother.

[Suleika Jawad]

I was gonna say it's the great gift and burden of being the eldest, that sense of responsibility.

[Craig Robinson]

Yes.

[John Batiste]

But it was definitely a reverse of the dynamic, you know, we went to at the time. There was corporal punishment in our school. And I remember one time there was a. It was a thing that something. Something happened in the class where I got caught up in. You know, there was a class clown who was my best friend, Keon. And Keon was doing. He would dance like Michael Jackson behind the teacher's back and he would get to a thing. It would be amazing. But then when the teacher turned around, he would always be back in his seat.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[John Batiste]

And he was doing that once, and he got me to get up and do it and I did it. And we got caught. So then they sent us to another class where they didn't have a board handy, I guess, for the paddle that we were about to get. So we went to my sister's class, and she was sitting there, and soon as she saw me walking, she was like, what are you doing in my class? And then they lined us up and her teacher gave us the wagon. I was like, I knew she was gonna go home and say, you never guess what happened at school today.

[Michelle Obama]

Guess who I saw.

[John Batiste]

Guess who I.

[Michelle Obama]

Little Nancy Wilson, guess who I saw. It was you.

[Suleika Jawad]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Getting your ass. Whoop.

[John Batiste]

We reported on each other.

[Michelle Obama]

So this is also a thing about younger, older siblings. You didn't have to talk because other people were talking for you. Now, that may be part of it. I don't know if you found that Suleika, with your siblings, did you had the poise? Did you find that your brother just sort of laid in the cut, as we called it, Because Suleika's gonna figure it out. And I'll just observe.

[Craig Robinson]

This episode is brought to you by Theraflu, makers of Fast Acting Cold and flu relief. Since 2021, Theraflu's rest and Recover Fund has provided more than a million dollars to families to help offset the cost of a sick day. We had IMO listeners share stories about how paid sick time has impacted their lives and and wanted to share a few of them with you. Many of our listeners are a part of the sandwich generation, meaning they are responsible for taking care of their kids and also their parents or in laws. We had one listener share that they have had to take sick time for their own recovery and then also simultaneously care for their grandmother, which made it hard for them to fully rest and get better. I think this is something we both can relate to with caring for our mom and even now, for me, that my in laws are living close by.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, that's for sure. I mean, but I'd say that we are way more blessed than our mom was because we had resources. I mean, this is, I think, what Theraflu understands. I mean, being a part of the sandwich generation when you don't have the resources and support means something totally different. We saw that with our mom because, as many of you know, we lived in our home with our great aunt and great uncle as they aged. And our mother was in that sandwich position where we saw her caring for our aunt and uncle as they aged while we were still pretty young. And I just remember those times her being so exhausted, not just physically exhausted, but just exhausted by the worry of all what turned out to be 24 hour care. It's too much for a generation to bear. But thanks To Theraflu and their work. There's support out there.

[Craig Robinson]

And there's another listener who shared that she is a single mom who doesn't have paid sick time. She said that she has no choice but to work when sick because she can't afford not to.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, that's for sure.

[Craig Robinson]

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[Suleika Jawad]

You know, in a weird way, I felt that way on behalf of my whole family. I felt like the translator of, you know, this American culture that we were trying to assimilate into. And I felt this maybe outsized sense of responsibility to get everybody on board, as if assimilation was some kind of family project that was gonna ensure our safety. So I felt terrible about it now. But my mom, you know, would mispronounce a word, and I'd immediately correct her, or I remember she. You know, she's probably the most thoughtful person I know, but she would make us these beautiful lunches, and I'd get. And she'd write a little note on the napkin, and I'd get to school, and I would immediately put it to the side and put it in the trash because I knew I was going to be made fun of for our chicken tagine and couscous or whatever it was that we had for lunch that day. And with my brother, he was so shy, he got bullied a lot in school. I felt really protective of him. So I do think, in some ways, yeah, there's truth to some of the things we associate with birth order, but.

[Michelle Obama]

Also the first generation piece of it all, which, as us American kids growing up and Americanized black kids, we had our own assimilation going on. But you make a wonderful point that you're trying to help your parents who don't know the culture. They don't speak the language perfectly. And you're taking on an outsized responsibility to make sure that they don't stumble or fall or get hurt or get made fun of, and you're just a child yourself in that process.

[Suleika Jawad]

I remember keeping lists of vocabulary words that I would learn at school, like American idioms. And I'd write them down, memorize them, practice them until they sounded somewhat natural. In conversation. I found one the other day and it said, talk to the hand.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, yeah, that's a good one.

[Suleika Jawad]

On forward means loser. And it was like a whole cheat.

[Craig Robinson]

A little crib notes for myself.

[Suleika Jawad]

Exactly. It's like this.

[Michelle Obama]

Talk to the hand. Talk to the hand. And how would you explain that to your mother?

[Suleika Jawad]

Probably. Yeah.

[John Batiste]

Yeah.

[Suleika Jawad]

I don't know if that was a good explaining it to her, but.

[John Batiste]

And would be like, huh.

[Suleika Jawad]

And you know, my, the thing I, I appreciate so much and we were both raised by such strong women who I think were really unique to have an example of someone who didn't really care what other people thought. My mom would come and pick us up at the bus stop on cross country skis wearing a backwards baseball, which, you know.

[Michelle Obama]

And you guys were just like, I'm not. I don't know her.

[Suleika Jawad]

I don't know her. Yeah, please never do this again. And now I just think that's the coolest thing in the world.

[John Batiste]

Serious. Making it happen. Come on. Living just enough for the city.

[Suleika Jawad]

There you go.

[Michelle Obama]

There you go.

[John Batiste]

Yes. Making it happen. You know.

[Michelle Obama]

So when for each of you, do you think as in your youth, did you. When did you feel like, I got this, you know, I'm no longer the misfit.

[Suleika Jawad]

I had a really. Right before I met you. 12, I went to the movie theater with my mom and I saw this movie, Julia Roberts. It's called Julia Wallace, Mona Lisa, Smile.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, okay.

[Suleika Jawad]

And all the girls on the first day of class had already read the textbooks and they were beautiful and fashionable and cool and more than anything, they led with their intelligence. And I went home. And that was one of those light bulb moments you can have as a little kid. And the next day I'd been hanging out with these sort of cool kids in my grade who were, in fact now looking back, not very cool, kind of mixed up in the wrong things. And I walked straight past them in the cafeteria and I went to the library and I found this girl in my class who lived down the block from us, who was top of our class. And I said, can you teach me how to study? And I, every day from that point forward, during lunch, sat with this new friend and realized, you know, being smart is actually the coolest thing that I can do. Maybe not for current me in the school setting that we were in, but for future me. And that's going to be my, my path forward.

[John Batiste]

Yeah, I remember the, the, the way that you, in that time when we met, felt like the world was open. It just, it was A wide open. It was. You could feel that for me. I don't. I love the title of your book because for me, it. It really resonates with coming out of my shallow or. Or not really having one moment, but a. Becoming a sequence of a thousand decisions that culminate into this moment and then a thousand more from this moment forward to the next moment. And. And. And ultimately at the. The center of it, a strong intention to do something that's bigger than yourself and to want to be. To create something that's resonant for people in a way that's profound and is the highest manifestation of your gifts. And moving through the world to the point where. I remember the years just before I started doing the Late Show. There was some of the best years of freedom and expression and the possibility of what things could be. We had started dating at that time, too, in our early, you know, mid-20s. There was. There was a period where we felt, you know, we weren't making no money, but we felt like we were on top of the world. And I think that might be the moment, I guess, but there's no moment. I can't pinpoint John in American Company.

[Craig Robinson]

Which was a beautiful, beautiful story, the two of you. But you said something that really struck with me, and I think I knew what you meant, but I'd love to hear from you. You said, music is inevitable.

[John Batiste]

And.

[Craig Robinson]

I mean, that show choked me up, the whole thing. Tell me what you meant by that, because I think I know what you meant. Well, I should say I know what it means to me. Yes, but I want to hear what you meant when you said that.

[John Batiste]

There's a power to what we do. It comes from the divine stream of consciousness where all creative comes from. And we're the vessel of the creative. Put it out into the world. And when we're true to that, there's a purity to that connection. There's a purity to the expression and each note and the next note and the next note and the next note that comes. It's inevitable. It's the only thing that could have happened because we have not tried to change it or manipulate it for personal gain or to commodify it for efficiency and scale. We've not tried to lie when we hear music. That's why we love it, because it's inevitable. It feels like life. It feels like divine alignment. And that's my belief of. With the symphony. But any music that I partake in, I try to make it tuned into that pure source.

[Michelle Obama]

Now, you too, Suleika. Dealt with a little pushback and redefining yourself. Talk a bit about that transition for you.

[Suleika Jawad]

Yeah, you know, I think when you're a kid, there's this notion of a coming of age arc. And when you get to the end of that arc, you'll have answers and certainty about who you are. And I'm now of the opinion that life is just a series of coming of age arcs. There's no there there where you get to a place and you're like, this is who I am, this is what I'm doing. And if you can surrender to that and enjoy the process of discovery, then it becomes exciting and interesting. So I had a lot of those. When I graduated, I wanted to be a war correspondence. And about a year after graduation, ended up in the hospital and I was diagnosed with leukemia. And I stayed in that hospital that first year. I think I spent about eight months as an inpatient. And you know, those, those moments where maybe you've invested everything into something and it doesn't pan out for reasons that may or may not be beyond your control, can, can obviously, you know, leave you feeling defeated. And for me, you know, especially at 22, when you're watching your friends on social media, starting careers and traveling the world and getting married and all the other big and small milestones of early adulthood, it's easy to feel like you're uniquely stuck. And that summer I started for the first time in my life, not doing things from a place of self imposed expectation or thinking about what was practical, but just trying to follow my curiosity to be, as our friend Liz Gilbert says, 1% more curious than afraid. And I started keeping a journal in the form of a hundred day project with my friends and family. And I realized in the course of keeping that journal that I was using it like a reporter's notebook. And that while I couldn't be a war correspondent in the way that I thought, I was reporting from the front lines of my hospital bed. And so that ended up leading to a blog like the good millennial that I was in 2011 when blogging was all the rage. And that led to my first time ever being published in the form of a weekly column. And so I think for both of us, we've been the recipients of great abundance and also great heartbreak. And the work of, of learning to surf those peaks and valleys without letting yourself get stuck and defeat has been our ongoing work. And John's been such a great inspiration to me. I mean, yeah, when we talk about being a misfit, John doesn't Fit into a box. He explodes the box and then draws a whole different shape for himself. And then he erases and draws a new one.

[Michelle Obama]

When did you guys reconnect?

[Craig Robinson]

Yes, now we're talking.

[Suleika Jawad]

Exactly. So John was basically doing exactly that. When I reconnected with him, I was 16 at that point. It's my first month at Juilliard, and I saw him on the one train. I had no idea that he was at Juilliard. And he was dancing and singing to himself with big old headphones on. And everyone in the subway car was staring at him like, what is going on with this guy?

[John Batiste]

Gotta be who you are, man.

[Suleika Jawad]

And I turned to my friend Michelle and I said, I know that guy. That's Jon Batiste from band camp. And then out of nowhere, I said, that's the man I'm going to marry someday.

[Michelle Obama]

Really?

[Suleika Jawad]

I have no idea why I said it. Didn't think of it again. We reconnected.

[Craig Robinson]

And you hadn't thought of it prior.

[Suleika Jawad]

Nope.

[Michelle Obama]

You didn't.

[Suleika Jawad]

And I didn't think of it afterwards.

[Michelle Obama]

You didn't walk out of band camp thinking, ooh, that John. He said not a word, but I felt a thing.

[John Batiste]

I felt something with that one.

[Suleika Jawad]

No, you were still in your gloriously awkward face. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Okay, tell me, what was he wearing?

[Suleika Jawad]

I don't remember what he was wearing that particular. I remember the headphones. I remember the Converse sneaker era then. You were trying some things at the time. Oversized suits.

[John Batiste]

Yeah, yeah. Had three suits.

[Suleika Jawad]

Three suits, that's right.

[John Batiste]

I would take drawings to a tailor and they would be like, well, we can't make this, but we can give you the textiles to make it. So then I would get the. Buy the textiles, and then I'll bring them to a tailor that I could afford to make the stuff. And then they started making suits. So I'd play shows and I'd take some of the money from the gigs I'd take to the tailor and I start making my own clothes. So I start making my own clothes and buying Converse that matched the suits.

[Michelle Obama]

What colors were these conversations?

[John Batiste]

Canary yellow.

[Michelle Obama]

Of course. I knew that it was. I knew it.

[John Batiste]

Easter pink. Remember that?

[Suleika Jawad]

I remember. One had tails on it.

[John Batiste]

Oh, yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Like tux tails. Straight up tails. Okay.

[John Batiste]

Cloaks. Cloak. Sit.

[Michelle Obama]

Cloaks, of course.

[John Batiste]

Don't sleep on a cloak. No, no, no. Don't sleep on.

[Craig Robinson]

Cuz I have been sleeping on a cloak. I have been sleeping on a cloak.

[John Batiste]

There something to it.

[Michelle Obama]

So you're in the subway with your. Did you consider this Your subway attire, performance attire, or were you just going to the, you know, the Dwayne's drugstore in it?

[John Batiste]

You know, it was. It was performance attire, but it was more than that. It was a form of expressing the identity that we were discovering in the sound, in the look. And it was just how I was when I was walking around in the world. You know, I remember I would go to vintage shops and thrift shops and, you know, I would put stuff together and I started traveling, doing some performances where I discovered some tailors from different parts of the world, and they had different textiles and. And all kinds of stuff you could use. So that was the. That opened up a whole nother thing. But yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

And what was the sound at the time? Was it your jazz band? Were you. Was it straight jazz? Old school jazz? Was it.

[John Batiste]

I don't. You know, I didn't have a term for it, so I made a term. I called it social music.

[Michelle Obama]

Social music.

[John Batiste]

And the band's name was Stay Human.

[Michelle Obama]

Okay. Yeah.

[John Batiste]

So that was the philosophy, and it was a mix of the idea of social music was really music from all of the different folkloric traditions of music before music was commodified. And how do you take all of those different traditions, study them, find the different dots that you can connect between them and bring it into the 21st century? So that was my vision and I was lofty.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, sure, you still are. That's what makes you beautiful.

[John Batiste]

You gotta be yourself, you see?

[Michelle Obama]

So you saw this happening on the subway and you were like, that's my dude.

[Suleika Jawad]

You know, it was one of those things that you blurt out, you don't know where it comes from. You don't think of it again. And it wasn't until our mid-20s that we really started dating. And it was such a beautiful time in our 20s. And I think, you know, your band name, Stay Human, is really an encapsulation of what I love most about you. You were just so open and just so incredibly creative. I'll never forget the first time I went to John's apartment. It was like a sight to behold. There were mantras written on the ceiling and on the walls. I remember above his bed he had written a list, and it said, pray, drink water, phone home, have fun. It was. Suitcases looked like an airport terminal because he was, you know, constantly playing shows and on the road and would come home and not unpack and have his next day was this in New York, in Washington Heights. Piles of books. First time I had dinner there, it started to Rain. And there was a flood of water coming in through the window. And I was like, how long has this been going on for? And he was like, since I moved in. And I was like, how long ago was that? And he said, a couple years ago.

[Michelle Obama]

You just letting it rain in your house?

[Suleika Jawad]

Yeah, exactly. But you were just.

[Michelle Obama]

That's fine. It's just water.

[Suleika Jawad]

You were just living in the world of your creativity and your determination to do what your band was called, to stay human and to figure out what that meant.

[Michelle Obama]

But did he cook dinner that night? He did. In his water filled.

[Suleika Jawad]

He did. He made red beans and rice. What did I.

[Michelle Obama]

You don't remember anything?

[John Batiste]

I cooked red beans and rice. Was. Wasn't good then, was it?

[Michelle Obama]

But was it good?

[Suleika Jawad]

It was.

[Craig Robinson]

There's your answer.

[John Batiste]

I. I can cook now.

[Suleika Jawad]

He's a great cook. He's the cook of our family.

[John Batiste]

But I wasn't cooking back then, so it would probably not very good.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, but you were dazzled.

[Suleika Jawad]

I was. I was dazzled. And I was totally, like, befuddled by John. He's unlike. He was unlike anyone I'd ever met. And I remember that first week, we went to a park and John sat me down and he said, what are your intentions? Which nobody had ever asked me before. And we had this. This conversation was a couple hours long where we talked about what it was that was important to us, what the terms of the relationship were. Yeah, just very.

[Craig Robinson]

No games, just to get to the point. Figure it out.

[Michelle Obama]

And what was going through your mind. Did you say Sulaika? Suleika. And you call her Sulayka. Why do you say Sulaika?

[John Batiste]

That's how I started saying it. And you told me you liked it, so I just.

[Craig Robinson]

I love it.

[Michelle Obama]

I just kept. I like it. What were you thinking when you saw her again? I like, now I'll never call you anything else, but.

[John Batiste]

I was thinking that it felt monumental. Felt like that conversation was like a major turning point.

[Michelle Obama]

How did you guys think about building your lives together? Because by then you had been diagnosed, you understood the messiness of it all. How did you two, in real time negotiate that? And how do you continue to negotiate it?

[John Batiste]

Well, I think it's in the vows. You just decide that we're in it. However, it needs to be set up, and it's going to be ever evolving. You know, it's going to be a range of different realities that we can't predict. So let's exist with the commitment that we made and move however we need to move, knowing that we're not quitters. So you got to know that the person you with is not going to quit. And if you know that, then the logistics, you sort that out. Just got to know that we're in this, and that's my true north. And I think we've figured out a few different. There's an equilibrium to having this. This illness and not letting it define, giving it only the attention that it deserves. It's not a defining characteristic of our life. It's just that's here. Okay. And we do what we need to do with that. But everything else is also here.

[Suleika Jawad]

Yeah. Yeah. I think, if anything, the illness is just for us, a good reminder of the one certainty that we all share, which is that we are born and we will die, and we are here for a very short period of time. And so I think it's changed our relationship to time in a way that I'm grateful for and doesn't feel unique to us or to my illness. But that does change the way we move through things because. Yeah, when you made a vow, the big shift for me is there's no longer that question of, am I in or am I out? But if this is the person I'm going to be with, how do I move forward as productively as possible? Because we are not only sharing our lives together, but we'd like to enjoy our lives together. And John, really, early on in our relationship, had this idea that instead of writing in a journal and doing our individual journaling, we'd write them as letters to each other, which we do, especially when we're apart, when we're both on the road for work. And it was so interesting because there are things that would come up in these letters that would never come up in the quick phone call where you're like, how are you? How was your day?

[Michelle Obama]

Are they letters, texts, you know, pen to paper or any form of.

[John Batiste]

We've done pen to paper on the road, where you take a picture of it.

[Craig Robinson]

Oh, nice.

[John Batiste]

Or in person, you know, you write. And then we trade books, the journals. But, you know, that's letters. It's the spirit of the letter writing. So I think it has to. You write it with your hand.

[Suleika Jawad]

It's not a text.

[Michelle Obama]

It's a very different thing.

[Craig Robinson]

It's not a dictated note.

[John Batiste]

Right.

[Craig Robinson]

I guess.

[John Batiste]

So.

[Michelle Obama]

Like you said, having the time to. The writing part of it. For me. For me, I said still. Right. You know, everybody asks me, what is it? Should we still go high? I get that all the time. I get it now. And I Have to explain and re. Explain that going high is about communicating with intention and strategy. That doesn't mean you don't feel the emotion, but a lot of times the emotion isn't the truth. So you exaggerate in the midst of the emotion. You always do this. You never do this.

[Suleika Jawad]

You.

[Michelle Obama]

But when you write it down, you start thinking, well, always isn't actually the right word.

[Suleika Jawad]

Right.

[Michelle Obama]

Or you people, you know, oh, that's not really what I mean. Right. It's how we raise kids. Count to 10, you know, I mean, going high is counting to 10, you know, and writing in a relationship is like counting to 10. Give yourself a moment to understand what you really feel and mean, and then have that be the source, the beginning of the conversation. Right?

[John Batiste]

Yes.

[Suleika Jawad]

Our friend Esther Perel says, what you need to say is not always what they need to hear. And sometimes, like, I know for me, I don't even know what I'm thinking or feeling until I start writing it down. And it takes me a page to get through all the emotions to actually get to the heart of the thing.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Well, that gets us also to journaling. Right. Which is your project, your book. Suleika, Would you talk a little bit about what you've produced thus far?

[Suleika Jawad]

Yeah. So I've been keeping a journal my whole life. For me, it's always been this hiding place and seeking place and finding place and just this daily practice that I do. I know you talk about small powers. Just something I do every day. It can be for 2 minutes, 10 minutes to ground myself, to write my way back to myself. But I found that I was kind of getting bored of the sound of my own voice. And so I started to find ways to prompt myself. So this book, the Book of Alchemy, is a meditation on the art of journaling and a synthesis of this approach to journaling. And it has a hundred essays and prompts. Do you journal?

[Craig Robinson]

So I don't journal by the typical definition of journaling. So I started my professional career in investment banking, sales, and trading. So I had to keep a diary every day of what I did. It was really transactional, if you know what I mean. And so I never really journaled my feelings about Craig Robinson. And now since my mom passed away, I keep the small little book in my backpack so that when I think of things that remind me of her or the kids, do something that I try and remember, I have to write that down. Now I have something. I can write it down.

[Suleika Jawad]

I'm of the opinion that there are no rules when it comes to journaling, but I know you had a journal that you kept in your 20s during a tumultuous time.

[Michelle Obama]

My teens and 20s, I had a journal, you know, sporadic. Barack was a big, big journal. He has a lot of written journals. But what I did do for the White House years, because I knew that this was a unique time and things were, you know, I always say it's like we were shot out of a cannon. And how do you keep track of all of that? And I just literally did not have the time to put pen to paper. But I knew that I needed to capture what was going on. So what I did do was that I worked with a dear friend of mine, a law school buddy of mine who was a dean at a law school. We were very close. I trusted her. Smart woman. She friend would come in twice a year and it was a way for us to catch up and stay in touch while I was first Lady. But she agreed to interview me. I needed to say out loud some of the stuff that I was feeling. And so she would come in with prompts that were that she had gathered watching me in the news and what was going on. And I always would have her talk to my chief of staff and schedulers just to get a sense of what literally had happened over the course of that six month period of time. And then we did a series of interviews that after each one we got it transcribed. I did not read them over, but it's there. For eight years. We collected the stories of emotions and that that material became essential when it was time to write. Becoming wow. Because you know how life is when life is moving so fast. Just like you say you don't remember any of your teens.

[Suleika Jawad]

Right.

[Michelle Obama]

And a lot of that is because you've packed so much life in. And that's what it was in those eight years. I mean, I would look up and, you know, make a comment like, oh, I'd love to go to Prague. It sounds wonderful. And my chief of staff would say, you've been to Prague. I was like, no, I haven't. You know, I had a decision with my staff. They were like, you participated in a sit in at law school? I was like, no, I didn't. And they were like, no, I think you did. I was like, I absolutely have no recollection of taking over the Dean of Students office and sitting in. I said, I would have remembered that until they showed me a picture of me. So what? You know, But I had no recollection of it and I didn't want to Go through eight years forgetting really major things.

[Suleika Jawad]

Well, and I think so many of us are living in a state of overwhelm.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, I think we're grateful for this, this project, and I think this is the best time in the state of the world for people to start journaling. For me right now, the journaling happens through a need to write a speech and to communicate. I find that that's when I'm putting pen to paper. So I think I'm going to take on one of the challenges.

[Suleika Jawad]

I love it.

[Michelle Obama]

And see where it goes. As long as Craig commits to do.

[Craig Robinson]

It with me, you know, what I'm going to commit to do is the listener.

[Listener Sharon]

Well, we.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, yeah. Okay, we'll talk about this. We'll talk about that afterwards.

[Craig Robinson]

Post production. This question is from Sharon.

[Listener Sharon]

I've lived with multiple sclerosis for 10 years, and I worry about the effect that it has on my family. I have a teen daughter who is so supportive of me, but I also am concerned that her needs might be lost in all of this. I definitely want to prioritize balancing my own health, but also carry the load for my family. For Michelle and Craig, when you were growing up, how were you affected by your dad's illness? And if you've ever been sick, how do you build in self care? How do you prioritize what you say yes to when it comes to family, work, and everything else in life? How do you preserve yourself so that you can feel good about the days you're having with your loved ones? Sharon from Atlanta.

[Craig Robinson]

That's a lot there. Misha, I'll let you go first.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, how did Dad's illness affect me? Because I think we're all individual in the way these things affect us. And I wrote about it in the light. You know, I think having the father, the center of our household, be clearly vulnerable to us.

[Suleika Jawad]

Right.

[Michelle Obama]

Even though he was persistent, defiant, strong, you know, didn't really claim it, never talked about his illness, you know. Cause I think he was probably trying to project a level of certainty and security that maybe he hadn't come to grips with. So we didn't talk about it a lot, but it was staring us right in our faces. You know, our father was different, but there was also a sense of vulnerability that you live with that can make you hold back. But at the same time, I think our parents pushed us out. At the same time, I don't think they wanted us to think of the world by their limits because I think they were limited from a socioeconomic background. Our parents were Working class, they couldn't go to college because they had to make sacrifices. They, you know, they had to work and earn living. So their worlds got smaller as a result, and they didn't want that for us.

[Craig Robinson]

I think for me, a lot of that is consistent, except I operated from a place of fear. I was fearful. I was fearful of vulnerability. I was fearful of catastrophe happening in the house. I was afraid of fires. I was afraid. I was always afraid. And I think I operated out of fear. So I was successful out of the fear of not being able to provide. And, you know, this is a great question because I've never really addressed it, but I was sitting here listening to you.

[Michelle Obama]

A journal.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah, there we go.

[John Batiste]

Here we go.

[Craig Robinson]

I know, John. This is the show, man.

[John Batiste]

This is show.

[Craig Robinson]

And from that fear, I think my parents saw that in me and the pendulum swung back over. And I think while they did push us to do stuff, they were more successful in pushing you to do more than they pushed me. Because I was reticent. I was the oldest. I was like, ah, you know, I almost didn't go away to college, you know, and it wasn't until my dad sort of was like, I'll be okay. Yeah, I'll be okay. Because he knew I was always worried about him. And the second part of the question is, how do you do? How do you handle your own self care? For the longest time I didn't because I was fearful that I'd find out that I was gonna have some malady. And it wasn't until I started. It's like, if we can laugh at it now. But it wasn't until I was in my mid-30s and I started. I became a head coach where we had our own sort of team doctor that I was like, I gotta start. My wife Kelly was, you gotta start having. Getting regular physicals. And I was in my late 30s, early 40s when I started having physicals every year. But now I think having children has made me more cognizant of being intentional about my own health in order to stick around for those guys.

[Suleika Jawad]

Right. I relate so much to that. I think when you've had the ceiling cave in on you, you no longer assume structural stability. You're kind of living on fault lines, and that can make it hard to push yourself out into the world. I know that for me, as someone who has sat both in the caregiver's chair and who's right now going through treatment, I just finished five days of chemotherapy right before coming here. I have to actively figure out how to be in relationship with the fear that's there because it's there. I've tried ignoring it, I've tried compartmentalizing it. And when I do that, I find it looms even bigger and to acknowledge it, but not let it be in the driver's seat. And I've had to figure out how to. To allow myself to do things that feel risky, to say yes to the invitation, to make the plan, even if I don't know I'm going to be well enough to do it, to, you know, undertake writing a book that takes two years and you don't know if you're gonna be able to see it through, to prioritize, you know, time with friends and family. And so I think, you know, for me, one thing I think of a lot is in periods when I've been at my sickest, I've had maybe only two or three good hours in a day. It's been a very specific kind of clarifying exercise in that when you only have two or three good hours, you get really clear about what you want to do in those two to three hours, who you want to spend it, and then what's important to you. And right now I'm feeling good. I have lots of energy. But in the morning, sometimes I'll think to myself, if there are only two or three things I could do today, forget my to do list. What is it that would make this day a really good day? And the other thing I do, as someone who loves a to do list, like you, I love a list. I'm the person who at the end of the day, I'll add things to my to do list that I've already done just so that I can cross them off and feel that sense of satisfaction I start with in my journal. I'll start with a to feel list. Before I get to my to do list. And it's just like whatever it is, I want to feel rested today. And then I write a couple of ideas of how to get myself there. And I actually make whatever that self care is part of the list. And it's attached the feeling that it produces not to the, you know, I have to go to the gym or whatever it is that's going to make me groan and want to avoid it. I'm more likely to get myself there.

[Michelle Obama]

Wow, I love that.

[John Batiste]

Yes, as a caregiver, that's important as well. Caregivering can make you feel the need to. I'm just gonna power through. But your body keeps the score so you know that well, after a certain point you realize I have to do something to maintain this role. And you have to make it be something that you're motivated to do. So finding those emotions, and not just emotions, but the practice of self care as same with the craft of making music. I find that there's a practice to self care. You gotta go in the woodshed. As we say musicians, you gotta learn what's the techniques. And it's very much a shift in perspective.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[John Batiste]

That you don't have to martyr yourself in service of those you love. In fact, that's a disservice to those you love. It's the internal world. What's it feel like in there? Do we need to renovate? Do we need to? Maybe we need to.

[Michelle Obama]

Is there a whole bunch of water coming in your window?

[John Batiste]

Maybe so. Might be a little leak. Gotta patch that up.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, I know I did learn that from watching my parents martyr themselves on both sides. Mom and Dad. I did work. I think I have worked hard as an adult to find that balance, if only to show my daughters a different balance. Because if I want them to change, I can't show up like my mom who it's like I'm taking care of everybody. And I put myself fifth on my priority list. Yeah, people are okay. They can do without you. Yes, they can.

[Suleika Jawad]

And sometimes the best way to care for someone is to model care by caring for yourself. I think about that all the time with you.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Suleika Jawad]

It's not selfish or indulgent to take a moment for yourself. It's actually a way of giving permission to the other people in your radius to do the same thing for themselves.

[Michelle Obama]

John, how are you taking care of yourself these days and what's on your to feel list?

[John Batiste]

My to feel list. What's on my to feel? I'm in a vibe. I want to be. I want to feel vibey and free. You know, a lot of times we have self imposed pressure to respond and that could mean anything. I mean just to respond, to act, versus to just take a pause and sit with something. Even if everything is telling you this has to happen now, everything is in fact totally fine. So I'm in a very deep on a cellular level. I've gotten to a place of fortitude in the chaos and comfort and taking the time, exactly the time it needs for me to show up as the best version of myself.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, yeah.

[John Batiste]

And everything else. I like that it continues to run, believe it or not.

[Michelle Obama]

Feeling the vibe.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, that's a perfect vibe to end on.

[John Batiste]

Yes, yes.

[Craig Robinson]

I really appreciate you guys being here, man. Yeah, it's been fantastic discussion, and thank.

[Michelle Obama]

You for making the time for this.

[Craig Robinson]

Really, really means a lot.

[Michelle Obama]

I love you guys. We love you. Really do.

[Suleika Jawad]

Yeah.

[John Batiste]

We're grateful to have you in our lives and just to have this beautiful, beautiful opportunity to have conversation and celebrate your great work, my love.

[Michelle Obama]

Yes. Thank you. So proud of you, as always.

[Suleika Jawad]

Yeah. It's such an honor for us to get to have this kind of a conversation. It's really such a gift.

[Craig Robinson]

The honor is ours.

[John Batiste]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, everyone, the book of Alchemy, plus your journal, and I'm getting mine. And I'm gonna challenge myself to start a new journal series for myself. So thank you. Thank you for your question.

[Craig Robinson]

She's gonna bully me into doing.

[Michelle Obama]

I am definitely gonna.

[Suleika Jawad]

All you have to do is your list.

[Craig Robinson]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

Yes.

[Suleika Jawad]

I like the list. Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Thank you. Well, maybe you're doing a to feel list for you, because I want to know what you feel. Hey, like, what's on your.

[Craig Robinson]

I feel like you leaving me alone.

[John Batiste]

Just keep it vibe.

[Michelle Obama]

Keep it vibe.

[John Batiste]

Keep it vibe. Yeah.

[Suleika Jawad]

Sat.