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IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson
Take Back Control of Your Health with Dr. Sharon Malone
00:58:58
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- [00:00]
Dr. Sharon Malone
The one thing I would say to women is this. No one's coming to save you. So if you think that the president or the governor or your state legislator is coming to save you, they're not. But they will if you make them.
- [00:23]
Craig Robinson
This special health focused episode of IMO is brought to you by Cologuard, a non invasive colon cancer screening test. Hey, Mish.
- [00:33]
Misha
Hey, Craig Robinson. Today's topic is one that's near and dear to me now. One of the reasons why I'm excited about. One of the many reasons I'm excited about our platform, imo, is that we really get to talk about a whole array of issues that we both care about. But this topic today is particularly of note for me because we're gonna be talking about women's health. We've got one of our dear friends, Dr. Sharon Malone, on, and, you know, she's gonna talk about her new book, new podcast that we're excited about, but we wanna talk about a whole range of things. And, you know, in many ways, to have a guy like yourself on in the midst of this conversation to some people might seem funny because a lot of men don't feel a connection to women's health because quite frankly, oftentimes we as women don't understand our own issues. And we're gonna talk a little bit about that. But I think you are in a unique position because we grew up in a household where women had voices. And despite the fact that we grew up in such an open household for that time in life, for that stage of. Of our lives, I'm still surprised at how little I know about my own body, you know, and how many things we didn't talk about. Not because our parents weren't open to it, but they didn't know, you know, so we're gonna talk more about this, but let's introduce. Let's get Sharon in on the conversation.
- [02:24]
Craig Robinson
Yeah. And you said Sharon's family and I, I could introduce her without the notes, but I'm gonna read Dr. Sharon Malone's bio here. Dr. Sharon is a nationally recognized OBGYN with over 30 years of experience, a New York Times bestseller with her book Grown Woman Talk, and a longtime advocate for providing practical information on women's health and aging. So here to join us is a good friend and just basically a family member, Dr. Sharon Malone.
- [03:03]
Misha
Welcome to IMO. Sharon, so good to have you with us.
- [03:10]
Dr. Sharon Malone
Thank you for having me. Thank you. Thank you, Grow Warrior.
- [03:14]
Misha
Because this woman here has been all over the country promoting grown woman talk. I am so proud of you for so much. But you did the thing writing this amazing, creative, fun, funny, informative, open, honest book about women's health with a particular focus on women of color. But it's a book for everyone. Men, women, people of all races and all ages, because you cover the spectrum of just some of the things that women go through. Can you talk a bit about why you wanted to write the book and how you feeling about things?
- [04:00]
Dr. Sharon Malone
Yes. I want to thank both of you for having me here because it's, you know, we've had many conversations like this just around the kitchen table. And to be able to share this is really special. And I remember, you know, when I left my clinical practice, now it's been four and a half years ago. I had none of this in mind. I wasn't planning to write a book. I wasn't planning to be out here in menopause world. None of it. But, you know, you gotta be ready when things happen. And I remember how encouraging you were for me. You were like, girl, come on, you can do this. And I was so nervous after I wrote the book, and I was like, oh, I don't know if you want to read it.
- [04:42]
Misha
And you didn't show it to me, but it took so many. It's like, okay, Sharon, I know you have a right. I was getting a little insulted for a second there.
- [04:51]
Dr. Sharon Malone
Well, you know what? It is, and you can appreciate this, Craig.
- [04:54]
Craig Robinson
Yes, I see.
- [04:55]
Dr. Sharon Malone
I knew that if I asked her to read the book, she was gonna give me her honest opinion of the book. And I was. Sometimes I wasn't sure if I was ready for that. You know what I mean?
- [05:06]
Craig Robinson
So welcome to the world of the Robinsons.
- [05:08]
Dr. Sharon Malone
I was like, oh. I said, wait a minute, maybe it sucks. And she's gonna tell me.
- [05:14]
Craig Robinson
And how about this? She's getting offended that you're not showing it to her. I was like, see, it's like, you know, I'm not ready for constructive criticism yet. I want to get it in the right position to show it to you, but.
- [05:26]
Misha
Well, to give some folks some context, I mean, Sharon and I, we've known each other since that day, that evening at the Black Caucus, when we first. Actually, our eyes first met. Right. Because this was a time. What was. Sharon's husband happens to be former Attorney General Eric Holder. He's a non factor, you know, he.
- [05:54]
Craig Robinson
Is not a non factor.
- [05:55]
Misha
He had a non factor in our relationship, in our story. Neither of us, although they put us together because we were both reluctant spouses attending one of these huge dinners and where were they? Was Barack a US Senator at the time?
- [06:13]
Dr. Sharon Malone
Yes, he was a senator. Because you were still living in Chicago and Eric was in private practice. So it was the very early days. And, you know, she came to D.C. and you didn't come to D.C. much in those days?
- [06:26]
Misha
No, ma' am.
- [06:28]
Dr. Sharon Malone
And they sit us at a table, and we were seated just about like this. She was across the table from me.
- [06:34]
Craig Robinson
Okay.
- [06:34]
Dr. Sharon Malone
And you know how there are things going on around us. And I would just look over at her, and it was.
- [06:39]
Misha
Well. And the things were. There was a line of people waiting to shake hands with our respective husbands. You know, people, like, reaching over our heads and speaking, spilling water on us, trying to get to these two, you know, illustrious men, you know, and she didn't. She had the same look on her face as I did. Like, here we go. You know, And I looked over at this beautiful woman. We had. Did we even have a conversation?
- [07:11]
Dr. Sharon Malone
Not until later in the afternoon.
- [07:13]
Craig Robinson
So you hadn't met?
- [07:14]
Dr. Sharon Malone
We hadn't met.
- [07:15]
Craig Robinson
This was, you know, kind of.
- [07:16]
Misha
But I just saw the look on her face, which expressed the sentiments that I felt, which was pissed off.
- [07:24]
Dr. Sharon Malone
No, no, it was just kindred spirit.
- [07:26]
Misha
You see this? You see this?
- [07:27]
Dr. Sharon Malone
You see this?
- [07:28]
Misha
I see you. This is like. This is crazy, isn't it, girl? That was the look. And it was, like, without words spoken, I was like, I want to get to know this woman. So when Barack got into office and appointed Eric as his Attorney General, there were just a couple of women like that, particularly sisters, Black women in D.C. that I knew. I knew I was gonna need my kitchen table there. And I had to do what I've told people to do in my books, which is like, you gotta go out and find your friends. You gotta find your people. And I invited you and a couple of other people over to the Hay Adams because it was before we were even able to get into the White House, just for, like, a girlfriend's lunch. And, you know, I don't know what that call was like for you, but for me, I was like, I just, you know, before this thing gets started, I need some info. I need to get a sense of, where am I? What's this city about? Who can I trust? And I instinctively thought of Sharon. She was on the top of my list of people that I wanted to know. And we had an amazing. Was it lunch or breakfast?
- [08:41]
Dr. Sharon Malone
Oh, it was lunch. And it was supposed to be an hour, and we talked for three. So you can imagine. So we're sitting there and it's like, okay, I don't have anywhere to go, but you're not busy. And we had. And that started it, and we've been talking ever since.
- [08:54]
Misha
And that's when we really started having some really deep conversations about our health as women. You know, how we neglected, you know, many of us were black women around the table. And we learned from Sharon all that we didn't know. So a lot of times those weekends would turn into Sharon advisory sessions because we'd bring her questions about health, things on our bodies, prescriptions. We would use her as a second opinion from our own doctors to make sure that we were covered. But, you know, your book touches on more than just the medical side of things. I mean, your book opens up with something as simple as how do you choose a medical provider?
- [09:35]
Dr. Sharon Malone
You know, I think if you think about how the medical system, you know, at its inception, it was never made for women, and it was certainly never made for black women. So whatever. You're a second tertiary thought in this whole process. And I think that how we pick doctors, you know, how do we even evaluate a doctor, is something most of us haven't thought about because you get it from your friend, or you may get it from your insurance book or whatever. But there is really a process that you should go through where you can decide, I don't have to just go to this person who continually disrespects me, or I don't have to continue to go to a person. When I complain, they don't hear me or they don't address my complaints. Those are the kinds of things you have to think about. And yes, it's important to know about board certification and where they went to medical school. That's important, but not the essential piece of this doctor patient relationship you're gonna have.
- [10:36]
Misha
Well, and we were raised on the doctor said. I mean, doctors for at least our generation and older, they're revered members of the community. You know, they were second to God. And so the thought that you would question or even have the right or authority to question so so many of us, if in the black community, you even ever saw a doctor, Right? But if you did have a doctor, you just fell into the arms of that person and took everything that they said about you as being the truth, even. And if all these doctors or most of these doctors were men who are not even trained in understanding women's health in that same way, and I want you to talk a little bit about how that happens.
- [11:25]
Dr. Sharon Malone
As I said, women were really an afterthought, you know, because you know, when I say in the old days, in the 19th century, they didn't have a lot of treatments anyway, so they didn't have a lot of treatment for anybody. This is pre antibiotics and surgery and anesthesia and all that. But there's this whole. There's this mythology about women's bodies, and women's bodies were unclean, contemptible. Ew. You know, that was sort of how the medical profession. They didn't even want to examine women, you know, in that era.
- [11:57]
Misha
And what era was that?
- [11:59]
Dr. Sharon Malone
This is like in the. This is in the 1800s. And as we move into the 20th century. Now, this may surprise you, but it wasn't until 1993 that it was mandated that women be included in clinical trials. 1993, 1993. Most of what we know about medications, most of what we know about medical devices have been. The research has been done on men and extrapolated to women because the thought was, well, we don't. Women are complicated. You know, they've got all these hormone things going on, and we don't really want to. You know, that'll mess up our research. So it's just easier to work with somebody that, you know, is in a diff. Different in the same state every day. So 1993 is the first time women were included. So most of what we know has been post then. But I'll do something. I'll give you something that was shocking even to me, because as I was doing the research for my book, I said, well, okay, how much is spent on women's health and research? And as of the 2022 figures, NIH, which is the largest funder of medical research, which is now being dismantled.
- [13:18]
Misha
Dismantled, by the way.
- [13:19]
Dr. Sharon Malone
But in 1993, NIH had a $45 billion budget that they used for. They endowed for medical research. Of that $45 billion, less than 11% of that $45 billion went to conditions that either primarily or exclusively affect women. Less than 11%. Now we're 51% of the population. So all of the things that we still are asking questions about men, perimenopause, the healthcare disparities in maternal health, you name it, everything that we have, migraines, fibroids, endometriosis, all of those things that affect women, they don't get funded. And so that's sort of how we are.
- [14:09]
Craig Robinson
And now to Misha's point and to what's going on in society, we're moving backwards again. I mean, so that just made me think, where do you send women to get proper Information on all of this stuff. Reproductive, ivf, hpv, you know, all of the things. Menopause. Where do you send people for information?
- [14:37]
Dr. Sharon Malone
Well, you know, there are certain things that are gonna. That I think that government is uniquely situated to do, you know, because the private sector does what the private sector does and they're interested in, you know, they want a new drug. They don't want to look at an old drug because there's no money to be made in an old drug. And so a lot of the things that. That we are looking at, even like hormone replacement, we're still basically working with the same data from, you know, 20, you know, from 30 years ago, because there's not been any funding for the new research.
- [15:12]
Misha
And this is the frustrating thing about the fight to protect women's reproductive health. Sadly, it has been reduced to choice, the question of choice. And it's as if that's all of what women's health is. That's the only thing. And as I attempted to make, the argument on the campaign trail this past election was that there's just so much more at stake and because so many men have no idea about what women go through. Right. We haven't been researched, we haven't been considered. And it still affects the way a lot of male lawmakers, a lot of male politicians, a lot of male religious leaders think about the issue of choice as if it's just about the fetus, the baby. But women's reproductive health is about our life. It's about this whole complicated reproductive system that does the least of what it does is produce life. It's a very important thing that it does. But you only produce life if the machine that's producing it. If you want to, you know, whittle us down to a machine, if the machine is functioning in a healthy, streamlined kind of way, but there is no discussion or apparent connection between the two. Sharon, can you talk a bit about sort of the state of the current state? What's keeping you up at night, of the many things that keep you up at night about the state of women's health?
- [17:01]
Dr. Sharon Malone
Yes. I think that one of the things that is disturbing to me is that somehow or the other government has gotten involved in decisions that are personal and healthcare decisions. It's not just about whether someone chooses to have a pregnancy or not, but you should have. This is a situation where a woman should have controlled over her body when and if to have a baby and to decide how that pregnancy should continue. Because, let me say this, if doctors are afraid to do their job and it's not. And this, this is not about abortion. This is about a woman who is in, who is miscarrying, who is, her life is in danger or she is in a position where we know that this pregnancy is not going to continue and a doctor is afraid that they're gonna go to jail because they are helping that woman to make sure that she'll live to be able to do this again. You know, these are the kinds of things that are very worrisome. And let me tell you what the downstream effect of that is in states where there are the most restrictive in the post Dobbs world. If I'm a young person and I want to be an obgyn, I might, one, I might choose not to be an ob gyn. And if I do choose that as my profession, am I going to want to train in a state where my career is in jeopardy? Am I going to want to stay in practice in a state where I have to worry about whether someone's going to drop a dime on me and turn me in because I did something to, to save someone's life or to preserve their fertility and that that's enough. But what happens when you don't have doctors in those states? What about all those other things? Remember I told you, you've got all the other things to worry about. Fibroids and endometriosis and all the other things. Now there's no doctor there. What about the woman who's having a completely normal pregnancy and she needs a doctor to deliver her and there's no one there? How does that in any way, shape or form improve women's health? You know, it's setting us back because, you know, now we're in a, now we're in a situation where everyone, now you have no access, and that's a problem.
- [19:53]
Craig Robinson
This next segment is presented by our friends at Cologuard, a non invasive colon cancer screening test. You know, when I first got my job at Oregon State, I was in my 40s, sort of early 40s, and I really hadn't had a doctor of my own. And I got A Dr. Finally, Dr. Chen, and got my first sort of blood screening at that point in time because, you know, growing up we went to the clinic when we got sick. And now that I. And then once I moved to Corvallis, I started getting physicals every single year. And from then on I felt like, okay, I'm taking care of my own health a little bit better than I had before. So. Dr. Sharon, how'd that do?
- [20:40]
Dr. Sharon Malone
You know, What? You did great, Craig. But you know what? Your experience is not unlike most people's. Most of us did not grow up going to doctors on a regular basis.
- [20:50]
Craig Robinson
So can you talk, Dr. Sharon, about an essential thing that we can do for our health as we get older? Why is screening for colon cancer so important?
- [20:59]
Dr. Sharon Malone
Colon cancer is one of the most common types of cancer in the United States. And as a physician, I've unfortunately seen firsthand how common it is. In my clinical practice, I have seen patients getting diagnosed with stage three or stage four colon cancer because they waited too long to get screened. And these are young, healthy people. There are even patients in their early to mid-40s with no family history of colon cancer. What people don't realize is that there is no such thing as being low risk. Colon cancer affects all genders, races and ethnicities. I can even personally attest to how serious and prevalent this cancer is. I lost my mother to colon cancer when I was 12 years old. My older sister was diagnosed with colon cancer over a decade ago. The difference in outcomes is due solely to early detection. My mother was never screened for colon cancer and she paid the ultimate price. My sister, due to early diagnosis and treatment, is alive and cancer free. This is why colon cancer screening for everyone, whether you have a family history or not, is important.
- [22:09]
Craig Robinson
Can you talk a little bit about colon cancer screening and options people have?
- [22:14]
Dr. Sharon Malone
The good news about colon cancer is that it's detectable early with routine screening. Because younger people are being diagnosed with colon cancer, the recommended age for starting screening is now 45, not 50. And that's why I wanted to make sure listeners are aware of the cologuard test, which is an effective, non invasive test that detects cancer and pre cancer. As a physician, I recommend the cologuard test because it is a solution for all the standard roadblocks that prevent people from screening via colonoscopy. They're thinking, well, how am I gonna take off work? Who's gonna pick me up from the procedure? How am I going to deal with all the prep the day before? But for those who are at average risk, meaning you don't have a personal or family history of colon cancer, polyps, or inflammatory bowel disease, the cologuard test is a convenient and affordable test that is delivered to your home and can be done on your own. No prep, no scheduling, no missing work. With the cologuard test, there is simply no excuse not to screen. So do it.
- [23:24]
Craig Robinson
However you go about getting screened. We just want to remind you to not let your health take a backseat. Thanks again, Nicole Guard, for being a partner of our show and reminding us of the importance of getting screened for colon cancer. Talk to your healthcare provider or you can request a Cologuard prescription today@cologuard.com podcast. The Cologuard test is intended to screen adults 45 and older at average risk for colorectal cancer. False positives and false negatives can occur. This special health focused episode of IMO is brought to you by Cologuard, a non invasive colon cancer screening test. As we discussed earlier with Dr. Sharon, getting screened for colon cancer is a crucial part of prioritizing our health as we get older, especially because right now, colon cancer is considered the most preventable, yet least prevented cancer out there. As it stands, colon cancer is on the rise in people under 50, which is why the American Cancer Society recommends that if you're at average risk, you begin screening at 45. Even if you live a healthy lifestyle and don't have symptoms, no one is at low risk for colon cancer. We want to make sure our listeners know that colon cancer can be treatable in nine out of 10 people, but the key here is that it has to be caught early. With the Cologuard test, you can take control of your colon cancer screening through a prescription based test with none of the prep that's required of a colonoscopy. Not only is the Cologuard test effective for colon cancer screening, but it can even detect pre cancer. And in addition to its convenience, the Cologuard test is also affordable. Most insured patients find they pay nothing out of pocket with zero downtime, no special preparation and a screening test that's delivered right to your door. Don't let your health take a backseat. So if you're 45 or older and at average risk, ask your healthcare provider about screening for colon cancer with the Cologuard test. You can also request a Cologuard prescription today@cologuard.com podcast. The Cologuard test is intended to screen adults 45 and older at average risk for colorectal cancer. Do not use a Cologuard test if you have adenomas, have inflammatory bowel disease and certain hereditary syndromes, or a personal or family history of colorectal cancer. The Cologuard test is not a replacement for colonoscopy in high risk patients. Cologuard test performance in adults ages 45 to 49 is estimated based on a large clinical study of patients 50 and older. False positives and False negatives can occur, Cologuard is available by prescription only.
- [26:47]
Dr. Sharon Malone
Just the fact that we've abandoned science, you know, that now medicine is, you know, what we're going to look at and how we're gonna make policy is based on whoever's in charge, their particular priorities and science and evidence be damned. We're not looking at that now. And let me just say a lot of what we do, yes, we do have to infer we don't have absolute evidence for everything, but we have a good amount, particularly for things like vaccines that have been around for, you know, for certainly as long as we've been alive. We have a track record on those. And to sort of throw science out the window because someone has a cockamamie theory about it is pretty troubling if that's the road that we're gonna be on, you know, and we are seeing the results of that now.
- [27:45]
Misha
Well, we're seeing more and more conversations from anti vaxxers.
- [27:50]
Dr. Sharon Malone
Right.
- [27:51]
Misha
We saw it during COVID What's that about? Why are we all of a sudden, after all these generations now pushing against vaccines that have saved lives for decades?
- [28:10]
Dr. Sharon Malone
Well, you know, it matters who's in charge. And I think sort of the way medical research used to work was that, you know, there were, there are researchers and there are people at NIH and there are scientists who, you know, do the, who actually do the work and the work drives the policy, not necessarily the other way around. Now granted there is some, because there are people deciding what research gets funded and what doesn't. That's always been the case. But now we're having, at the highest levels, people decide, no, we're not doing that. And you kind of go, wait a minute, but we've got 50 years of data on that and it's as if that does not exist. And we're just gonna do. And we're gonna serve the theories and whims of whoever happens to be. And so it's not really coming, you know, it's not coming from the scientific community. It's really coming from someone else who has a very different view of what they think is important. And they're embracing some theories and some conspiracies that really have no basis in science. And that's a problem if that's how we're going to continue to do research in this country.
- [29:28]
Misha
And we're seeing that with this measles outbreak. So what's going on there? Well, you know, this is in Texas, correct?
- [29:37]
Dr. Sharon Malone
Yeah. I mean they've got what like now over 500 cases of measles, a disease that was considered eradicated in this country. And here's the thing. Like take, for instance, smallpox, okay? Smallpox was a terrible thing. And then everybody got vaccinated. It's been declared by the World Health Organization. It's eradicated. Now, no one gets it. But if you allow the measles to come back and more and more people are unvaccinated, and the thing that people really don't remember about why it's so important to get an mmr, the MMR part of it was rubella. And rubella was why you pregnant women get it. And guess what you have. Congenital defects in children, deafness, blindness, birth defects in pregnant women who are unvaccinated. So as bad as it is amongst the children. Yes. Will most of them survive? Yes, they will. But what about everybody else? What about the ones that don't? And one child dying is too many. But now you're gonna infect pregnant women and unborn children. And if you really care about unborn children, that seems to me a good enough reason to vaccinate.
- [30:48]
Misha
So if you're a mother that's vaccinated, does that protect your unborn child if you are vaccinated?
- [30:56]
Dr. Sharon Malone
Exactly. But what if we keep this trend going? You know, and as these children who are unvaccinated now reach puberty and childbearing years, then they will be just as at risk as generations were before.
- [31:12]
Misha
I mean, it's just mind boggling to believe that with all that we know, with all the resources, with the wealth in this nation, that we are going to go backwards in time, that we are walking backwards with our eyes wide open with sirens blaring. It's just unbelievable to me that in a short period of time, we're here having these kind of conversations we had.
- [31:42]
Dr. Sharon Malone
Just really, even on the women's health front, we had just started to make. We're like, wow, we know about that 45 billion, and we're only getting 4 billion of it. All right, well, that was great, except as we were starting to make progress and they were saying, yes, we've got to pay attention to women's health issues. And there was President Biden came up with $100 million White House initiative for women's health in midlife. The Department of defense had a $500 million grant that was supposed to go to studying women in the military because nobody was studying them. Poof. It's just all gone. It's all gone.
- [32:23]
Craig Robinson
So, Sharon, before we get to our listener question, we have some Great listeners who send in great questions. But before we get to that, given all of this non information and misinformation and the dialing back of funding, if you could give women your biggest piece of advice that they could hear from our platform here on sort of what they should be doing, what would that piece of advice be?
- [32:54]
Dr. Sharon Malone
The one thing I would say to women is this. No one's coming to save you. So if you think that the president or the governor or your state legislator is coming to save you, they're not. But they will if you make them. And see, this is where I said a lot of what we've gotta do now. We can't, you know, political environment is what it is. But this is a, it's a political issue. It's not a partisan issue because this will affect all women. It doesn't matter, you know, what your political affiliation is. And this is where I think that as 51% of the population and probably 60% of the voting population, that we have an opportunity for this big a advocacy for women to say, hey, look here, I'm going to talk to my local, my state legislators and say, this is important to me and you're either going to address this or we will vote you out. And that is really the only power that we have collectively is to make sure that our voices are heard. And that once people realize that we're serious about this and we're not gonna just sit here and take it, I think we'll get some. I think people will start to listen.
- [34:10]
Misha
Yeah. And Craig, that piece of advice cannot just be directed to women. This is why I implore the men in the world who have women that they say they care about, daughters that they are raising, that this is their issue too. I mean, for men to sit on their hands over this issue and trade out women's health for a tax break or whatever it is, is a sad statement about that man's level of value of the women in their lives. And there are a lot of men who have, they have big chairs at their tables. There are a lot of women who vote the way their man is gonna vote. It happened in this election. So just to direct this at women, unfortunately, we've seen is not enough.
- [35:17]
Dr. Sharon Malone
And we are already facing a doctor shortage coming up because we're getting older. We're watching this. We're the last of the baby boomers, but there's a huge push. The people that are gonna need the most care and we don't have enough doctors to meet that need. And so we've gotta figure that out and figure out even more. I'd say more innovative ways to deliver care. Just like in the old days where you would get sick and you call the doctor and he would come to your house. Okay. When they stopped doing that, you're never gonna go back and do that again. Well, we need a real serious innovation, change in how care is delivered right now because we don't have enough doctors to backfill and to be a little bit more. To take it even further when people are saying, yeah, well, we need more culturally sensitive doctors. And we do. But here's the problem. How are you going to get them if you're decimating public schools? Where are these doctors going to come from?
- [36:19]
Craig Robinson
And diversity programs.
- [36:21]
Dr. Sharon Malone
Exactly. How is that going to happen? Gotta figure out a way. That's why I said all of it's politics. And it's politics and making decisions at the local level, at the state level for making sure that people are in a position because people like you and me and Michelle, who went to Ivy League colleges from public schools, that's a rare.
- [36:48]
Misha
Non. Existent. It's a rarity.
- [36:51]
Craig Robinson
Yeah, well, I know. I said I'll get to the question. This has just been a just terrific and enlightening discussion. But we have a question from Lisa from Chicago. And let's give a listen.
- [37:06]
Lisa
Hey, this is Lisa from Chicago. I'm moving up in my career and doing really well and I don't want to slow down, but I also want to have a family in the near future. So I'm wondering, what age should women start freezing their eggs if they're not ready to become pregnant? What health tips and checkups can both partners do to ensure they're ready to conceive? This is a topic my husband and I are having and I'm also hearing more about it from friends. Thanks.
- [37:36]
Misha
Now, this is a question that we are getting around our kitchen table from the. The next cause we're in that generation, our daughters are in that stage in life where, you know, it's both of us. Yeah, all of us. Where, you know, they're deciding between pursuing a career, you know, how long do they have to wait finding a mate? All of those questions feel more existential and. But even given that I met a young woman that's a part of our world who just froze her eggs and she's in her 30s and very enlightened, very educated. She just did it. But she said she only did it because she heard other people doing it. She had never heard in all of her enlightened years on this planet about the importance of freezing eggs, that it was even a possibility that she could or even should freeze her eggs. So that in today's young women, she said she had never been in a conversation about the importance or the possibility of freezing her eggs. 30 something, early 30s.
- [38:55]
Dr. Sharon Malone
That's very interesting because to give you an idea of how much has sort of become part of the conversation and that a lot of the tech companies, in an effort to retain female employees and talent, they're using, they're offering egg freezing as a benefit because, you know, we don't want you to, you know, we want to have this and we want to make sure that you're here so that will allow you to work longer and do whatever, because now you've got this, these, this in the bank. But there are two issues that I really want to distinguish between. One is egg freezing and the other is embryo freezing. So say, for instance, if you do ivf. Now, we have a lot of experience with IVF and, you know, a lot of success with ivf. We are not as far along with egg freezing because egg freezing wasn't a thing until maybe, I want to say, 15 years ago that it even was a possibility. So even though we could freeze sperm forever and we could freeze, you know, freeze embryos, we just sort of gotten to the technology to be able to freeze eggs.
- [40:06]
Misha
And just so that we're not assuming things, the difference between egg freezing and.
- [40:11]
Dr. Sharon Malone
Embryo freezing is, okay, so embryo freezing is just a regular IVF procedure. If you were doing IVF and you took medications and you had eight eggs that would fertilize them all, and you don't want all ate at once, so you would take two or three out, freeze the rest so you could come back if that didn't work. That's what embryo freezing is. And that we know is pretty successful. The world of egg freezing is, as I said, relatively new. And to give you an idea, because it's technologically more difficult to freeze an egg than it is to freeze an embryo, Believe it or not, it is. I did not know that because it has to. Because a certain number of them, you have to freeze them and then you gotta unthaw them before you fertilize them. So if you already had a partner, I would tell any young woman who is like saying, you know what? My husband or my partner and I are planning to have a baby, but not right now, and I'm 34 years old, you know, maybe three years from now, because here's the part that I really talk a lot about in, in my book, in Grown Woman Talk, as we talk about perimenopause and all this, one of the things that we don't talk enough about during perimenopause, which is that period between about 35 and 45. For most women, one of the first things that changes is your fertility. You're not as fertile at 40 as you were at 30. And so that's how a lot of women will come to this as they start to realize, oh my goodness, I can't get pregnant. And that is just because aging of the eggs and that and the drop.
- [41:55]
Misha
Off is huge and sudden, right?
- [41:57]
Dr. Sharon Malone
It is. But you don't know for each individual woman, you don't know how long. You know, I say you're stamped with the expiration date and you don't know when your eggs are gonna expire. For some people it may be 42. My mother, I was born when my mother was almost 45 years old. Now, I'm sure she was not.
- [42:16]
Misha
Well, you were entirely pleased about the situation. You were the last of how many, though?
- [42:20]
Dr. Sharon Malone
Eight. You know, but then she hadn't had a baby since, you know, in eight years before I was born.
- [42:27]
Craig Robinson
Oh, I gotcha.
- [42:27]
Dr. Sharon Malone
So you know what I mean? Surprise. She had. Oh, I thought it was menopause. And guess what?
- [42:32]
Misha
It's you.
- [42:34]
Dr. Sharon Malone
So I say that to say that that's the natural progression of women's fertility. So here's the question. Well, if you're a young person and you don't have a partner identified or you, you don't have a heterosexual partner, you know what if you. What are you going to do in terms of. When am I going to decide to freeze my eggs? Well, the younger you are when you freeze them, the better outcome you have because you'll get more eggs, you know, from. You'll get a bigger harvest. But here's the problem. The younger you are when you freeze them, the less likely you are to come back for them. Because if you froze your eggs at the 30 and you decided to get pregnant at 34 because you found the love of your life, or you've made that decision, I would still tell you at 34, well, go get pregnant. I wouldn't unfreeze your eggs. I'd only unfreeze your eggs if you had tried on your own.
- [43:35]
Craig Robinson
That makes. I get it. I get it. Yep, that makes sense.
- [43:36]
Misha
But that's why the research is so unclear about the viability of frozen eggs.
- [43:42]
Dr. Sharon Malone
So even though we've been doing it for 15 years, the reality is the number of people who have actually come back for those eggs is depending upon who you read, anywhere from 6 to maybe 10% of them people have even come back. So it's not like everybody. Because a lot of people will get pregnant first. That's why. Trying to tell someone, I would never tell a 25 year old freezer eggs.
- [44:06]
Craig Robinson
How much does all of this cost?
- [44:09]
Dr. Sharon Malone
As much as ivf.
- [44:10]
Craig Robinson
It is as much.
- [44:11]
Dr. Sharon Malone
It's as much as ivf.
- [44:13]
Misha
Same shots, same medicine, same shots.
- [44:15]
Dr. Sharon Malone
It's the same procedure as they only.
- [44:18]
Misha
Do ivf, there's no fertilization, that's all.
- [44:21]
Dr. Sharon Malone
And then they freeze them and then you have a storage fee every year for every year you don't come back.
- [44:26]
Misha
One of the average storage fee, I'm just.
- [44:28]
Dr. Sharon Malone
It can vary anywhere from like 500 to maybe, I don't know, a month, A year?
- [44:34]
Misha
A year.
- [44:34]
Dr. Sharon Malone
Because they've got to keep. What if there's a power shortage? That was my next question in your place. So you need to have a very reputable place that you are freezing your eggs and making sure they will still be in business 10 years from now when I come back for them. So there's a lot of thought process goes into it. So what if you say to a 37 year old who wants to freeze her eggs and you go, okay, you do the whole thing, whatever, and it's like, ooh, you only got six eggs. Well then your success rate is not 70%, it's somewhere far south of there. And then you have like, well then if you do another round, then take whatever that costs and double it. Yeah. And that's the, you know, that's why I said the reality of it. I don't want, I don't ever want a young woman to think, well, I don't have to decide right now, I'll just freeze my eggs and not worry about it. And I think we all as parents understand this. There's never a point in your life where you say, I'm good, I got nothing to do for the next 22 years. That's right. To raise a child, there's never a perfect time for it. And just make sure that whatever the reason is that you're delaying is a good enough reason for you. If you look back on that reason and say, well, that was fine because I just could not have done it at that point. I get that. But because it's inconvenient, you know, just know that there are some real life factors that have to be taken into account. So you Know, do it, don't do it. Make sure you know why. Make sure you know what it costs. And understand that frozen egg does not guarantee anyone a baby. It gives you a chance of having a baby.
- [46:17]
Craig Robinson
Yeah.
- [46:19]
Misha
Does it make sense for young women, young men, to start getting sort of a sense of their fertility? You know, sort of before all of this, like, you know, should young women go in and have ultrasounds and to see. Does that make any sense to have that on their minds?
- [46:42]
Dr. Sharon Malone
Not really. Because there's really. Other than menopause or perimenopause, there's really not any women. One thing that is going to really be a predictor of whether or not you're going to be able to get pregnant. So you can't go in and say, give me a fertility test and tell me how fertile I am right now. And all I can say to you is, if your periods are regular and you're getting them every month and you're otherwise healthy, assume it's good. If you're below a certain.
- [47:06]
Craig Robinson
So there's no dietary exercise, none of that stuff will help.
- [47:10]
Dr. Sharon Malone
You should always do. Let me just say this. Just be healthy. Yeah. Just the health thing, everybody. Because that's just the cornerstone of everything. But you can't necessarily improve your fertility. I would say the one thing that probably might decrease if you smoke, because there is something about ovarian aging for women who smoke and for people who drink excessive amounts of alcohol, that might be a factor. But the thing that's different about women than it is about men. With men, you make a new set of sperm every 69 days. You get a new batch. Right?
- [47:45]
Craig Robinson
Right.
- [47:45]
Dr. Sharon Malone
We are born with all we're ever going to have, and that's it. You. You. We have.
- [47:51]
Misha
We always get in the short end, I'm telling you.
- [47:54]
Dr. Sharon Malone
Isn't it. We get all.
- [47:56]
Misha
We have sperm after sperm after sperm.
- [47:58]
Craig Robinson
Well, we can jack ours up with behavior, too. Right.
- [48:04]
Misha
It's like, be careful there. Like, where are you going?
- [48:07]
Craig Robinson
I just. Yes. I was trying not to curse. I should have cursed.
- [48:12]
Misha
It would have been better. We might have to leave that out.
- [48:15]
Craig Robinson
No, but seriously, it's. We can mess ourselves up, too. But not. I mean, we. We. You know, that. That's what I learned in the ibs.
- [48:25]
Misha
Well, speaking of that, I don't want to jump away from the question, but I am curious about what they. What is the. The connection between aging, sperm and birth defects, you know? Or are there any correlations? Because they're going to cut out research in that, too. It's like, no, I'm 80 and I'm good. I'm still good.
- [48:45]
Dr. Sharon Malone
You know, it does, you know. See now, now, see now you've touched on a nerve now, because, you know, My mother was 45 and my dad was 66 when I was born. Who knows what I could have been?
- [48:56]
Misha
That's, you know, God, you know, it's like you're just coming in on the last of everything. Sharon just squeezing out the last misbraind cells.
- [49:04]
Dr. Sharon Malone
Knows I might have two or three Nobel Prizes by now.
- [49:07]
Craig Robinson
Probably smoked and drank like my mom did.
- [49:11]
Dr. Sharon Malone
Oh, my God. My. But yeah, so there. There is at least some, you know, again, anecdotal data that says that older sperm, more autism. We should tell some people, like, maybe it's the old sperm, maybe it's not the vaccine that's causing the autism. You know, why don't you look at that?
- [49:28]
Misha
They'll.
- [49:30]
Craig Robinson
Good luck with that one.
- [49:32]
Misha
That may be the key behind all the defunding. Everything. It's just like, let's just blow it up. And then the old men, we can't.
- [49:40]
Craig Robinson
Let them find this stuff out.
- [49:41]
Misha
Old men can keep marrying 20 year olds.
- [49:44]
Dr. Sharon Malone
Exactly.
- [49:44]
Misha
It's like, I'll give you the baby you want, but we don't have to keep that.
- [49:49]
Dr. Sharon Malone
No.
- [49:52]
Craig Robinson
Yeah. I'm already in trouble with the guys because they don't think they got to go to the doctor's appointment with you now.
- [49:57]
Dr. Sharon Malone
I'm gonna be all right. We don't have to keep this part in, too. But it's funny that you said it about going to a doctor's appointment. And I will have to be honest about this, is that I love it when men come with their wives. Again, we're talking about stuff, or we're talking about fertility or we're talking about your surgery or whatever. I do find it weird when a dude is sitting at the end of the table when I'm doing the pelvic exam. I'm like. Cause I only had, like, two people that would do that. And I was like, oh, yeah, but.
- [50:29]
Misha
Why would they sit at the inn? Just sit up by your wife's head. Be where she is. Just.
- [50:35]
Dr. Sharon Malone
I know.
- [50:35]
Misha
Go to the head of the table.
- [50:37]
Dr. Sharon Malone
All right.
- [50:38]
Misha
They're down there with you.
- [50:40]
Craig Robinson
This is good.
- [50:40]
Dr. Sharon Malone
This is education for men.
- [50:42]
Craig Robinson
If you're gonna go, don't.
- [50:45]
Misha
Don't get in the way of the exam.
- [50:46]
Craig Robinson
In the wrong side of the examination.
- [50:48]
Dr. Sharon Malone
You don't really need to be in for the exam.
- [50:50]
Craig Robinson
Right.
- [50:51]
Dr. Sharon Malone
You can be there for the.
- [50:52]
Craig Robinson
For the information. For the information.
- [50:55]
Dr. Sharon Malone
But you don't need to be there to watch me doing what I'm doing.
- [50:58]
Craig Robinson
Don't need that.
- [50:58]
Misha
No, you don't need.
- [50:59]
Dr. Sharon Malone
We don't need that.
- [50:59]
Misha
Yeah, that sounds about right.
- [51:02]
Dr. Sharon Malone
But the thing, see, for women, too, it's that same thing about why we are born. We're born with all the eggs that we're gonna have. That's why birth defects, you know, things like down syndrome and other sort of chromosomal defects happen in women because our eggs are as old as we are, we never get a new batch, so they don't function as well in that process. And that's why birth defects go up with age and miscarriages go up with age.
- [51:32]
Craig Robinson
This has been really helpful for me, and I want to get to some takeaways for Lysa on the freezing eggs. And the two that I jotted down and tell me if I have these wrong, is don't freeze your eggs too early. Was. Was something. I thought you could do it at any point in time and bank it like it's money.
- [51:55]
Dr. Sharon Malone
No. And you know why? Because, again, because we don't have enough experience to say, how long will they last? And right now, the current recommendation is that you should come back for them by 10 years. Okay, so. But we don't know, you know, will they last 20? I don't know. They don't know either.
- [52:12]
Misha
And if you freeze them at 25, you may not be ready.
- [52:15]
Craig Robinson
Ready at 35, exactly.
- [52:16]
Dr. Sharon Malone
Or you may have just by 25. Now 35, you're married, so you go and have them the other way. So you spent, you know, tens of thousands of dollars on the freezing, plus the storage, plus all of that. And I always say this, if it's a benefit on your job, okay.
- [52:32]
Craig Robinson
Yeah. Right. The insurance covers it.
- [52:35]
Dr. Sharon Malone
Right. But if you really have to go in, dig in your pocket, then I would say, ideally, I would not do it before. Unless there's some other rationale for it that was new.
- [52:49]
Craig Robinson
That's new news, right. I think, for a lot of people. And then how about pick the right place? It's like you have to really investigate these places where you're sending your eggs.
- [53:01]
Dr. Sharon Malone
Do your research and make. But here. All right, here's another little piece about what's problematic today is that I just read something last week. Is that the part. The part of the CDC which collects all this statistics on this has been dismantled. So now you are. There is no government agency that's going to collect all this data. So you will be able to evaluate one center versus the other. Now you may be left to whatever they say is what it is. So that's a problem.
- [53:34]
Craig Robinson
Well, those were two that I picked up on. Am I missing anything or have you got a.
- [53:39]
Dr. Sharon Malone
And I was saying if you have a partner or you have someone identifying that you want to be the sperm donor.
- [53:47]
Craig Robinson
Right.
- [53:49]
Dr. Sharon Malone
If you have the opportunity, freeze an embryo, don't freeze an egg. Yeah.
- [53:54]
Craig Robinson
Well, this is good for Lisa and it's good for me to hear. And I think for the guys out there, this is good for them to hear. So I really appreciate it.
- [54:03]
Misha
And I want the men out there be involved in the. You know, it doesn't have to be. Be your partner. If you've got any women in your life who are willing and open to help educate you, seek it out. Sharon, thank you for the book. And we have to talk about. You have your podcast that's coming up.
- [54:27]
Craig Robinson
I want to hear about that because.
- [54:29]
Misha
We'Re going to be able to hear from Sharon a whole lot more and dig deeper into a whole range of issues because you are working on your own podcast. Tell us all about it.
- [54:40]
Dr. Sharon Malone
You know what, my podcast is called the Second Opinion, or tso. So we have IMO and we have tso.
- [54:46]
Misha
I would love it.
- [54:48]
Dr. Sharon Malone
And what I really wanna do with this is to go deeper into some of the issues and to really hear from women about the things that they may be wrestling with and may not have gotten good answers for. And here's the reason why I love the title of the podcast is because I know a lot, but I don't know everything. And sometimes, guess what, I need a second opinion. And when we're talking about topics that I am not the subject matter expert, I have no problems getting those people involved. Such that we make sure that in your five to seven minutes that you get in your doctor's office, you may not get all your questions answered, but we're gonna try to take care of them on the Second Opinion.
- [55:31]
Craig Robinson
I love it.
- [55:32]
Misha
So exciting. And I would be remiss to. To say that TSO is a part of the Higher Ground audio family. And as proud as I am of all the work you put into Grown Women Talk, I know that TSO is gonna have the same level of candor humor. Are you gonna have some good music to your podcast? Because we didn't mention that Sharon's book, Grown Woman Talk, comes with a playlist. Cause my girl loves her music. And sprinkled throughout every story, she has a song that goes with it, you know, and it is a fun. It's a fun playlist.
- [56:16]
Dr. Sharon Malone
See, now, that's a great idea, because what I'm gonna do with each episode, or maybe once a month, we'll have a TSO playlist. See, but, you know, my friend, your sister over here, you know that.
- [56:27]
Craig Robinson
Yeah, I know. I know. See, she's. This was her way to get us to talk about how good her music tasted.
- [56:33]
Misha
I wasn't even thinking about it. I wasn't even thinking about it. What I was thinking about is that I am looking forward to having Sharon back on imo. I am looking forward to having some great conversations with you, more candid, more focused on tso. Because this issue, if anyone couldn't tell, is near and dear to my heart health and women's health as that been at core of my advocacy since I've been in the public eye. I believe strongly that we as women have to take ownership over our health. I live my life by that motto, and I've been better off. I mean, my physical health is directly linked to my mental health. And what got me through so many of the tough times over the last decade was the fact that, you know, I felt good inside. And I think it's incumbent upon us to share that good news with other women, because it's something we can do. You know, we don't have to be athletes climbing up a mountain. We just have to get up and move a little bit, eat better, be advised, believe in science, and have candid conversations with the people that we love. It's doable. I just want us to do it. So I'm grateful, Sharon, that you are gonna be the voice of that conversation. So, so excited.
- [58:00]
Dr. Sharon Malone
And thank you for welcoming me to the family.
- [58:03]
Misha
Yeah, yeah.
- [58:04]
Dr. Sharon Malone
Gonna be good.
- [58:05]
Misha
Gonna be good.
- [58:05]
Craig Robinson
And actually, thanks for letting the guy be in on this discussion. This was very important.
- [58:10]
Misha
Well, I think you need to be in or more guys. I shouldn't say you, but you know that's gonna be a part of it, right? Sharon? Having those male voices around the table, those men who are totally clueless, so that the men can feel comfortable in their cluelessness, that it doesn't, you know, it doesn't prevent them from being at the table asking all kinds of questions. It's better to ask and be wrong than not ask at all. Sam.