Tap Into Your Vulnerability with Matt Barnes and Stephen Jackson

Summary

Podcast Summary: IMO with Michelle Obama & Craig Robinson

Episode: Tap Into Your Vulnerability with Matt Barnes and Stephen Jackson
Date: October 15, 2025
Host: Higher Ground

---

Overview

In this episode, Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson welcome NBA legends and podcast hosts Matt Barnes and Stephen Jackson for a candid discussion on manhood, vulnerability, parenting, and navigating societal challenges as Black men and fathers. This heartfelt, oftentimes humorous conversation delves deep into issues ranging from childhood adversity and broken homes to fatherhood, emotional health, and balancing discipline with love as a parent. The episode also includes the guests’ reflections on their NBA careers, transitions into media, and evolving perspectives on activism and politics.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. AAU Basketball and Youth Development

[05:11–07:54]

• The group widely critiques the current state of AAU youth basketball, noting its individualistic, money-driven culture, contrasting it with the intended lessons of teamwork and discipline.
• Matt Barnes: “These kids are just head down and go to the basket, individualized and selfish. The hardest part...is getting these kids all on the same page because they’re all the best on their individual teams, trying to come together for the summer.” [06:08]
• Stephen Jackson: “AAU was a blessing for me growing up in a small town, but now a lot of people are around these kids for the wrong reasons.” [07:33]
• Michelle Obama: “I had always hoped that sports would be that place where kids would learn not just the skills, but ... how to be on a team. It just feels like this whole league is just all about money.” [06:49]

2. Transformation & Identity Post-NBA

[08:46–12:10]

• Both guests discuss being labeled “bad guys” in the NBA and the journey of showing their true, complex selves after retiring.
• Matt Barnes: “We were outcasts or bad guys in the NBA, but it was just what we had to do to survive ... Now, being a trusted voice in the Black community, we don’t take this microphone for granted.” [08:46]
• Stephen Jackson: “People will put you in a certain category ... just cause I play the game harder than you don’t mean I’m a thug or I’m a bad guy ... We just love our teammates.” [09:52]

3. Building ‘All the Smoke’ and Shaping the Podcast Landscape

[12:10–14:31]

• The creation of "All the Smoke" came organically and disrupted perceptions of athlete-led media.
• Matt Barnes: “We didn’t know what a podcast was, but we thought we could more authentically be ourselves ... First season in, we won Sports Podcast of the Year and kind of just flipped the whole industry.” [12:16]
• They see their player perspective as a needed voice: “For so many years, only talking figures [who] had never played were speaking on who we are ... Instead of us allowing ... our brothers and sisters to give their own truths.” [14:31]

4. Childhood, Upbringing, and the Power of Community

[14:31–19:25]

• Both recount challenging upbringings—Jackson raised by his grandmother in a small Texas town; Barnes as a biracial child facing stark racism, family addiction, and cultural alienation.
• Stephen Jackson: “I was lucky I was around a lot of love ... Anytime I tried to get in trouble, my city protected me.” [15:31]
• Matt Barnes: “Growing up a biracial kid in the 80s ... I faced a ton of racism. It started shaping me at an early age of just, okay, this is a cold world now.” [16:33–17:41]

5. Giving Back and Considering Political Activism

[25:02–26:27]

• Stephen Jackson: Visits home less since losing siblings, but sought to open a school and stays involved.
• Matt Barnes: Active in Sacramento advocating on police brutality, cannabis equity, and inspired by Kevin Johnson’s political impact. “At 31, I said by 50, I'm gonna be the mayor of my hometown ... Daddy duty comes first, but maybe one day.” [25:56]

6. Men & Politics: Reluctance and Growth

[27:25–31:03]

• Stephen Jackson speaks about skepticism toward politics, especially after the murder of his friend George Floyd, but is now becoming more open to embracing political activism through learning.
• Matt Barnes: Stresses athletes’ platform power, the importance of voicing one’s position, and how fatherhood motivates civic engagement.

7. Fatherhood: Breaking Cycles & Emotional Presence

[33:32–41:38]

• Matt Barnes & Stephen Jackson describe intentional parenting, blending old-school discipline with open communication—especially important in co-parenting or “broken home” scenarios.
• Matt Barnes: “I think parenting, when we grew up ... was a dictatorship. Now it has to be more of a conversation because of the internet ... You have to bring old-school morals and meet them halfway with this new generation.” [33:34]
• Stephen Jackson: “Just being present from day one for all your kids is what all fathers need to understand. Make your presence felt in your child’s life.” [41:30–41:42]
• Michelle Obama: Emphasizes deliberate parenting; kids “watch everything we do, everything we say.” [35:53]

8. Vulnerability, Emotional Health, and Crying

[46:00–48:43]

• An intimate segment on men’s emotional openness:
  • Michelle Obama (to Matt Barnes): “I know, Matt ... you hadn’t cried.” [46:11]
  • Matt Barnes: “I haven’t. I wanna. I wanna learn. I don’t know ... There’s times where I’m hurt but it’s just like it won't [release].” [46:18, 55:57]
• They discuss how mental health, therapy, and breaking generational patterns are essential for supporting their kids.

9. Failure, Success, and Letting Kids Struggle Safely

[48:43–51:42]

• The importance of letting children experience failure and pain, even in privileged circumstances.
• Michelle Obama: “They weren’t around when we were grinding, struggling ... It becomes more important for us to take them down those emotional paths. Because kids like ours ... have so much pressure.” [48:47–49:46]

10. Love Lives & Self-Reflection After Sports

[51:42–57:52]

• Both reflect on relationship struggles; the need for self-improvement and vulnerability.
• Matt Barnes: “Right now, more is just like, I gotta get little Matt all the way together. That’s going to help grown Matt be a better man, father, owner, friend, and business partner.” [53:19]
• Stephen Jackson: “I don’t regret anything. I’ve done what I was supposed to do ... My heart is always in the right place. So I think that’s how I handle every situation.” [56:36]

---

Listener Q&A: Raising Kids of Color in New Spaces

[67:35–78:46]
Listener ‘Tony’ asks: How do you raise a Black or mixed-race child in privilege with wisdom from struggle, but not pass on old fears?

• Matt Barnes: “Do I pour that trauma into my kids? ... I think it’s a situation by situation ... You don’t want to throw so much fear in them that they start hating other people, but you don’t want them to be naive.” [68:49–70:37]
• Stephen Jackson: “Know who you are first. Because once you know who you are, can’t nobody knock you off your rocket ... You never have to demean someone to make yourself look better.” [70:37]
• Craig Robinson: “Read the room. Because there are going to be times ... I don’t want them to lose their edge, but ... if you show that edge, you’re gonna get profiled.” [73:19]
• Michelle Obama: Emphasizes parental presence at school, especially for boys of color: “It’s important, especially if you have a Black son, for them to know you ... That may mean go to some of these field trips ... Barack went to every parent-teacher conference their entire life—even in the White House.” [74:29–76:38]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Michelle Obama: “Kids do not care about how much money you have... Kids just want to see you in their lives, just trying.” [79:36]
• Matt Barnes: “There is no blueprint for broken families. You just have to hope that you keep the kids first and you can be cordial enough to make sure their childhood is still what it needs to be.” [38:51]
• Stephen Jackson: “Make your presence felt in your child’s life and maximize the mask out of it.” [41:30]
• On Male Vulnerability:
  • Matt Barnes: “I haven’t [cried]. I want to. I want to learn. ... I’ve touched on emotional intelligence of kids ... but for myself, how to release it, I don’t know.” [46:18, 55:57]
  • Michelle Obama’s story of Barack crying after dropping Malia at college: “And I hear this [sniff]... I had to look over … and the agents are like, 'Sir, are you okay?' ... It’s like, just, man, just do it. Just cry. Let it go. Make it happen.” [54:29]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [05:11] – AAU basketball & youth sports culture
• [08:46] – Being labeled “bad guys” and their post-NBA transformation
• [12:10] – The origin of “All the Smoke” podcast
• [14:31] – Childhoods and formative influences
• [25:02] – Giving back to hometowns and community activism
• [27:25] – Men’s political engagement, activism, and skepticism
• [33:32] – Parenting philosophies & balancing old/new approaches
• [41:30] – Presence in fatherhood and co-parenting
• [46:00] – Vulnerability, men crying, and emotional health
• [51:42] – Reflections on love, relationships, and self-betterment
• [67:35] – Listener Q&A: “How do you guide kids raised with more privilege?”
• [74:29] – The importance of involved parenting in school for boys of color
• [79:36] – The power of showing up, regardless of circumstance

---

Tone & Style

The conversation is deeply candid, spirited, and supportive. Michelle and Craig’s warmth puts Matt Barnes and Stephen Jackson at ease, drawing out moments of self-reflection and vulnerability rarely discussed so openly by male athletes. The blend of humor (“Do you have 17 kids?” [36:30]), respect, and honest struggle gives the episode a distinct emotional resonance, making it especially impactful for listeners concerned with fatherhood, self-growth, and generational change.

Transcript

[Stephen Jackson]

Your mom go to work at 6 in the morning. She get up at 6 in the evening. You don't even see her when you get home from school. So I seen the dedication that she put. But she also never demeaned my father. She never demeaned him in no type of way. Never spoke bad of him. So when I started having my own kids, you know, when I.

[Matt Barnes]

And you got a lot of them.

[Stephen Jackson]

I got a lot of them.

[Michelle Obama]

Do how many kids?

[Stephen Jackson]

I got six girls. 17.

[Craig Robinson]

Okay.

[Stephen Jackson]

No, I don't have no 17 kids.

[Michelle Obama]

Okay.

[Stephen Jackson]

I got five. I got five girls on my own. One out of marriage, and I got two boys.

[Michelle Obama]

This episode is brought to you by Rivian and Cologuard.

[Craig Robinson]

Michelle Obama.

[Michelle Obama]

Hi, Craig. How you feeling today?

[Craig Robinson]

I feel terrific.

[Michelle Obama]

Is that crochet?

[Craig Robinson]

You would be better telling than I would. Do you like that?

[Michelle Obama]

It seems it's kind of a.

[Craig Robinson]

It's mesh.

[Michelle Obama]

It's either knit or very fancy. With your little silver buttons.

[Craig Robinson]

I tell people all the time, the hardest part about this job is keeping.

[Matt Barnes]

Up with your wardrobe.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, that just won't happen. You should give up.

[Craig Robinson]

I know. Just call it, Chris. I should start rerunning my outfits. I should.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, you can't do that. Mm. Mm. Sorry. I won't allow it to turn. No, but you look cute today.

[Craig Robinson]

Thanks. I feel cute.

[Michelle Obama]

What's new and exciting? Exciting in the Robinson household?

[Craig Robinson]

Uh, not much. We just got back from Orlando from a AAU extravaganza into the summer. I couldn't be more happy with the end of the summer, but we had fun. We had fun. The boys played well, and it was extremely hot down there.

[Michelle Obama]

Did they win?

[Craig Robinson]

They won enough games to be proud to. They won more than they lost.

[Michelle Obama]

That's good. Did you rent a car?

[Craig Robinson]

We did. We did. It wasn't a Rivian, though.

[Michelle Obama]

Uh. Oh, how's the Rivian?

[Craig Robinson]

It's good. It's good. Our listeners know that we were gifted Rivians to test out and talk about. And it's going well. You know, I found a new feature.

[Michelle Obama]

Tell me, because there's so many features.

[Craig Robinson]

I finally took the car to go get washed.

[Michelle Obama]

Tell me about that.

[Craig Robinson]

And, you know, I was thinking, you know, taking the. Having the car in the driveway, having the kids wash it, that's all fun. But I was like, I'm taking it in to the car wash, and it's got so many cameras and sensors. It was going crazy while I was going through.

[Michelle Obama]

Was one of those you stay in the car.

[Craig Robinson]

It was one of, you stay in the car. And it was, you know, telling me that there were cars coming up behind me and to the right. And so I was going through the screen, the screen. And I found a spot where you hit it for car wash. And it turns off all the cameras, closes the windows. You can't accidentally open them while you're in there. Pulls in your mirrors and turns off all the cameras and sensors.

[Michelle Obama]

So nice.

[Craig Robinson]

That's something to keep in mind.

[Michelle Obama]

They've thought of everything.

[Craig Robinson]

They have thought of everything.

[Michelle Obama]

So that's good.

[Craig Robinson]

All right. This is one show we. I have. You two. We have been waiting for because we have a couple of guests here who are. They're killing it in their own right.

[Michelle Obama]

Yes, they are.

[Craig Robinson]

And a couple of basketball legends. And I'm talking about Matt Barnes and Stephen Jackson and probably the first guests that I have to look up to.

[Michelle Obama]

Literally, huh?

[Craig Robinson]

Literally. But Matt Barnes spent 14 in the NBA. And for those of you who listen to our show, 14 seasons in the NBA is an outlier. Most of the folks who are in the NBA are in there for a hot minute and are out. He excelled as a defensive specialist and enforcer. His basketball career ended with the 2017 championship with the Golden State warriors in his final season. He is a proud father, the CEO of All the Smoke production, the co host of all the Smoke, and an investor slash advisor for several companies. Stephen Jackson also played 14 seasons in the NBA. So no two for it. I mean that.

[Michelle Obama]

That's a rare thing. Yes.

[Craig Robinson]

God. 14 years. He was pivotal in the San Antonio Spurs 2003 championship. He is the co host of the hit series all the Smoke and has emerged as a spokesman for human rights and equality for people all around the world. These guys had me on their show back when we were first getting started.

[Michelle Obama]

And they are killing it on the Smoke.

[Craig Robinson]

They're killing it on all the Smoke. Matt and Steven, come on out, fellas.

[Michelle Obama]

Come on, join us. Hey, guys. Hi.

[Matt Barnes]

What's happening?

[Michelle Obama]

Welcome, welcome. I'm doing great.

[Stephen Jackson]

Way taller than I thought.

[Craig Robinson]

You see you man the hills. Thanks, brother. Being here.

[Michelle Obama]

Mat. Thank you. So good to see you.

[Matt Barnes]

I heard your aau. AAU summer, huh? Doesn't that take the whole summer?

[Craig Robinson]

It just takes the whole summer. And it's bad basketball.

[Matt Barnes]

Oh, it's horrible basketball.

[Craig Robinson]

You coach too?

[Stephen Jackson]

Are you.

[Matt Barnes]

Are you the coach? Same with me.

[Craig Robinson]

It's just bad hoops.

[Michelle Obama]

So what makes it bad basketball?

[Craig Robinson]

Well, you got.

[Michelle Obama]

And what do you mean by bad basketball?

[Craig Robinson]

Where do we start?

[Stephen Jackson]

Iq. First of all, he's around it every day.

[Craig Robinson]

He's talking basketball IQs, and these are NBA guys. I just want to get to where not everybody's an independent contractor. Let's just play like a team. Supposed to play. Play it right, learn how to play, you'll get seen. But if you keep playing like this, guys like me who used to be looking at you guys going to the next guy.

[Matt Barnes]

What age group are you coaching?

[Craig Robinson]

15U, 13U.

[Matt Barnes]

I just feel like to your question, Michelle, it's just this generation of kids are super skilled, very skilled and talented because they're training, but they're training, individual training. So it's head down. How many times can you put the ball between your legs? Just all the stuff that doesn't really add up to the next level. So college is, you know, all these spacing and ball movement and playing off the ball. And then obviously NBA is the ultimate show for that. But these kids are just head down and go to the basket. And it's very individualized and selfish. So the hardest part for me is, and probably for you is just getting these kids all on the same page. Cause they're all the best team. They're all the best kids on their individual teams. And we try to come together for the summer and be a unit. And it's difficult sometimes.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, yeah. It just feels like AAU is just an industry.

[Matt Barnes]

Oh, yeah. It's moneymaker. That's all it is.

[Michelle Obama]

And I always give him crap about the deep investment in AAU for my nephews because it's like, to me, and this will be controversial, it's like it's not doing anything for these young men and women. You know, I mean, I had always that sports would be that place where kids would learn not just the skills, but they would learn how to be on a team.

[Matt Barnes]

A lot of different things from team sports.

[Stephen Jackson]

You're right.

[Michelle Obama]

Have some role models, learn how to listen, you know, learn how to lose, learn how to win with grace. And it just feels like this whole league is just all about money.

[Matt Barnes]

That's all it is.

[Michelle Obama]

And convincing some parents that your child will be the next whoever they think.

[Stephen Jackson]

To me, it's like a gift and a curse. Cause AAU was a blessing for me. I come from a small town where if I didn't have aau, nobody would never heard of me. So that's why I used it to make a name for myself and become a top high school prospect. But now it's not even for that. You know, a lot of people are playing the game for the wrong reasons. And around these kids for the Wrong reason.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Can I just say, just as a point of introduction, is that I am so impressed with the both of you on so many different levels.

[Craig Robinson]

This means she's through talking basketball.

[Michelle Obama]

No, no, I know. We could talk now.

[Stephen Jackson]

When the Queen talks, we all listen now.

[Craig Robinson]

But I.

[Michelle Obama]

But, you know, watching you guys podcasts, watching you out in the world, watching how you carry yourself, watching how you do talk about more than just basketball and how you are serving as role models for men, connecting with something other than sports. I mean, that is one of the reasons why I'm really excited to have you guys on the show. You know, you just don't meet men like you often.

[Matt Barnes]

That means a lot, especially coming from you guys. I mean, and that was our thing. You know, we were kind of outcasts or bad guys in the NBA, but it was just what we had to do to survive in the league. And I think our transformation post NBA has kind of opened a lot of people and again, never perfect. We've had a lot of mishaps, but I think, you know, genuine and pure hearts and wanting to do the right thing and understanding that, you know, we don't take this microphone for granted. You know, being a trusted voice in the black community is something that's, you know, very near and dear to our heart. And, you know, I mean, we're here now. You know what I mean? So again, it's an honor to be here and we appreciate that.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. And you talk about a transformation, but was it, I mean, you know, you all came into the league as enforcers or that became your role? Probably because you're hungry, you need to win things, you learn. But when I hear about your backgrounds, I see the humanity in you. Then it's just sort of like that lead played. You had to play some role that wasn't you. Because you just don't become this if you weren't already that right.

[Stephen Jackson]

And a lot is misunderstanding too. Like people will consider you and put you in a certain category. But we just love playing basketball and we played it with the ultimate passion. So just cause I play the game harder than you don't mean I'm a thug or I'm a bad guy. I'm a force. I just play the game with the passion and willing to put my body on the line. And you're not willing to do that. And that's why we look that way at times. Me and Matt just love the game and we love our teammates. Everybody didn't love their teammates. Yeah, you know what I mean? We loved our Teammates. And that's why we so close now, because we are very identical. We don't look. I look better than him. But as people, we are the same. And I think that's. A lot of people see that now.

[Craig Robinson]

But I don't think. And you guys tell me this, when you first got drafted and you were just going in, you weren't going in with the mindset of I'm gonna be this guy Michael Jordan, right? And whoever you thought you were gonna be.

[Stephen Jackson]

No, we didn't. I wanna get in the NBA, make a career and last and make some money and change my family's life. I didn't go in there trying to be the best player because I knew that really wasn't feasible for me. You know, I got drafted second to the last pick. You know, I went overseas a couple years, so that wasn't my role. I went in to find my role and it worked out for me.

[Matt Barnes]

I think obviously finding a role is instrumental for anybody because everyone thinks they're gonna come in and be the Next Steph or LeBron or Michael Jordan or Kobe or whatever. But those guys are, you know, once in a lifetime type players. And to find your role is what gave us both longevity. We found out, okay, yeah, I'd like to do more of that, but that's not what they're looking for. This is what I'm gonna do. But I think back to your point too, and I think we caught the end of with our NBA career. So what you saw is what you get. You know, so you may see Jack slap somebody or me cuss out a ref and you think, oh man, there's such. But, you know, you saw two hours of competitive guys that were doing anything to can just to continue to, you know, prolong our careers. So I think again, post career was when social media really started hitting and we were able just to show who we were. And again, not perfect, but real. And I think that's been our secret to success transitioning is we didn't switch up. You know, we both worked for ESPN and Fox and worked on these networks and now have our own thing. But we've, you know, wholeheartedly been us the whole time. And it surprised a lot of people thinking that, okay, you can play this way and you can talk this way and still do this.

[Craig Robinson]

So where, where did the idea for all the smoke come from?

[Stephen Jackson]

Go ahead, bro, you tell the story better than that.

[Matt Barnes]

Oh, man, we were, we were fellowshipping.

[Craig Robinson]

Describe that.

[Matt Barnes]

Yeah, that was, you know, we were, we were sitting back after a long.

[Craig Robinson]

Time that sounded like a.

[Matt Barnes]

We were at my place. I had a place in the base still right when I retired from the Golden State. And we happened to just. He came in town, and we were hanging out, watching games, and we were both having some success with Fox and espn, and we kept getting a lot of feedback. You guys need to do something together. You guys are authentic. You guys are real. I mean, obviously we were brothers, but it was just like he was Fox and I was more espn. So we were just kind of, okay, what can we do together? And I was just like, let's do a podcast. And we didn't really know what it was, but I'm just like, I think we could more authentically be ourselves. He's like, what's a podcast? I don't know, but I think we can.

[Craig Robinson]

We can smoke and we can drink.

[Matt Barnes]

And we can be ourselves. And, you know, I'm kind of the one that's in the weeds, learning the business and understanding stuff. And had an opportunity to meet with Brian Daly, who was at Showtime at the time he flew out from New York, and we met at a hotel, and I pitched him an idea, and he liked it, and he had to fight tooth and nail to get it passed. Cause this is Showtime. Showtime, like the linear network. So they're just like, you want guys that are smoking weed, talking about sports on our network? They're like, no, that doesn't work. So he had to. He put his life and his job on the line for us and fought for us. And, you know, first season in, we won Sports Podcast of the Year and kind of just flipped the whole industry on its back. I think we were the second. I think knuckleheads Quentin Richardson and Darius Miles are maybe a handful of months behind us. But when we came in, we kind of really feel like we kicked the door in. And now we're almost, you know, kind of like the godfathers of this space because there's so many podcasts out now. But I do want to say, with the amount of podcasts out, we don't look at anyone as competition, because I feel like we're unique in our own ways, and everyone has their own journeys and own stories. And I think a player's perspective is what fans as a whole want to hear. That's what I want to hear now. I'm a fan now that I'm done, so I want to hear what a fan has to say or what a pro has to say. So we got a ton of brothers and sisters in this space now, and I think it's great because now, for so many years, it was only the talking figures that had never played that are speaking on who we are, who we think we are, instead of us allowing or us talking for ourselves, but also allowing our brothers and sisters to give their. Their own truths and painting their own pictures.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, and part of showing that piece is folks understanding and knowing your stories. You know, little Matt and little Steven, you know, and I am. I'm so moved by what you guys have both been through. But talk a bit about growing up, you know, what your childhoods were like, what home was like, what it wasn't like. I know you've talked about it before. Our audience is new to you, and I want them to know all of you because that's also what makes you special.

[Stephen Jackson]

For me, I grew up raising my grandmother and grandfather. So I'm a grandma's baby. I'm a grandma's baby. To this day, I get emotional thinking about her. She had. I have a lot of aunts, so I was raised by a lot of women. I grew up in the church transfer. I'm Muslim now, but I grew up in the church. Grew up singing in the church choir.

[Matt Barnes]

Trying to sing.

[Michelle Obama]

You got a thing?

[Matt Barnes]

No, he doesn't.

[Stephen Jackson]

Okay, never mind. I wouldn't do that to y'.

[Matt Barnes]

All. Don't gas him up.

[Stephen Jackson]

I would not do that. Just real family oriented. Small town, eight sets of low income housing, one or two high schools, one grocery store. So I seen it all. Just thankful that I had a great support system. My city, every time I tried to get in trouble or be something that I wasn't, they protected me. And they saw me with the talent to go to the NBA when I didn't see it. So my city just protected me. Small town, Port Arthur, Texas. Jimmie Johnson, Janis Joplin, they all from there. Jamal Charles Kendrick Perkins is from 15 minutes away. But I had a great upbringing and I was lucky that I was around. A lot of love because I made a lot of mistakes. And the people around me showed me that you have a chance to be something in life. So I owe it all to my city and my family.

[Michelle Obama]

Is your grandmother still?

[Stephen Jackson]

No, she's my grandfather. Both passed.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Were they able to see?

[Matt Barnes]

Yes.

[Stephen Jackson]

So the first year I made it to the NBA, my grandfather passed, so he was able to see me, my grandmother. So yeah, yeah, it worked out.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Barnes]

Me, man. Biracial child, Italian mom, black father. Growing up in the 80s.

[Michelle Obama]

Yikes.

[Matt Barnes]

Yeah. A little different. A little different. My parents, my dad would tell me stories of just being in certain areas and getting into fights because he was with a white woman. So growing up a biracial kid, the first eight years of my life, I didn't know any different because I was around a lot of kids that were either like me or black, Mexican, Asian, whatever it was. And then we moved to Sacramento at about 1989, and my parents were both functioning drug users. You know, we never went without, but I knew. And again, growing up in the 80s, I just saw a lot. We had the house that everyone hung out at, so I just saw a lot growing up. But the oldest of three and moving at the end of the 80s up to Sacramento, it was kind of a culture shock. Although we found a neighborhood that was similar to my neighborhood, my parents started putting me in predominately white schools. And although I'm half Italian, I was never really around white kids. And I was always a big old outcast. Had to fight for friends, fight for the opportunity for sports. Faced a ton of racism. But I really think it started shaping me at an early age of just, okay, this is a cold world now. I had a little bubble my first nine years. But I'm in this real world now where people drudge you based in it. I would go home crying at times at 8 or 9 years old, why won't the kids let me play? And obviously my mom would console me and hug me and love me. My dad's like, nah, fight him. And I'm like, oh, you're giving me a pass to fight. So, you know, at 8 or 9 years old, I started fighting for that respect and fighting for racism. And I didn't really understand why, but it just was what it was. So, you know, long story short, I gained a lot of acceptance. And once they accepted me, I was an athlete that played four sports, football, basketball, baseball and track. And really made a lot of lifelong friends that I still have to this day. But I would say the one thing that shaped my entire childhood, literally right up until I went to ucla, was just the racism. My senior of high school in Sacramento, kid was messing with my sister, calling her racial slurs. And I did what a big brother's supposed to do. I protected her. And school didn't believe me. They thought I was some kind on some bully stuff. I get suspended for a week and the school is vandalized by the kkk, Burned down bathrooms, mannequins with dye barns nigger here. I mean, there's still swastikas engraved in that. I've been out of high school for almost 30 years now. So it was just really kind of, again, I don't look at it as like, poor me. It was just kind of what shaped me and what gave me a voice before I even had a voice, before I had a platform to share my voice. And that's why I'm so outspoken to this day on racism and in politics and policy and police brutality. Because I've just seen a lot as a young child that I knew that, okay, if I'm ever blessed enough to have my own platform, I need to speak up for all the people that don't have an opportunity to speak.

[Craig Robinson]

This episode is brought to you by our friends at Rivian. And they're fully electric, full sized SUVs and pickups that are designed for all of life's adventures. I have really enjoyed driving around in the R1s that Rivian outfitted our family with. I can't believe there's a full size, all electric SUV that actually fits someone as tall and long as I am. You know, we've done a lot of travel in the Midwest this summer and a couple of the features that I like are, number one, they're easy to find charging stations. The Rivian app helps you with that. And here's something that's really cool. If you're not in your vehicle, there are cameras that record any movement around your car. What's also really exciting is that Rivian just launched its all new R1S quadrant quad. It's Rivian's fastest, most capable vehicle yet. Four motors, one per wheel for precision and performance on any terrain. Engineered for sharp corners, wild trails and maximum adventure. From distinctive accents and badging to exclusive new wheels, Quad is built to stand out wherever it takes you. So when you get a chance, go check out the all new R1S quad and all of Rivian's amazing vehicles [e-mail] this episode of Imo is brought to you by Cologuard, a non invasive colon cancer screening test. Currently, the American Cancer Society recommends that if you are at average risk, you should begin screening for colon cancer at age 45. There are an estimated 60 million adults age 45 plus in America who are not up to date with their colon cancer screening. So we need to change that by spreading the word about another option. The Cologuard test can help you put your health first and feel more in control of your colon cancer screening process. This easy to use screening test is delivered right to your door and allows you to collect the sample comfortably at home on your own schedule. The sample is shipped back to the lab for testing and results are available within eight to 10 days. It's simple, but the best part about the Cologuard test is that it allows you to start screening for colon cancer without all the hassle of preparing for a colonoscopy so you don't have to prep the day before. And by prep, you know I mean fasting and drinking all that liquid. You get to skip the stress of having to request off work, go under anesthesia, get a ride home, and all the other hassles that come with an invasive procedure. And in addition to its convenience, Cologuard is also affordable. Most insured patients find they pay nothing out of pocket with zero downtime, no special preparation, and a screening test that's delivered right to your door. Let's start prioritizing our health. So if you're 45 or older and at average risk, ask your healthcare provider about screening for colon cancer with the Cologuard test. You can also request a Cologuard prescription [e-mail] podcast. The Cologuard test is intended to screen adults 45 and older at average risk for colorectal cancer. Do not use a Cologuard test if you have had adenomas, have inflammatory bowel disease and certain hereditary syndromes, or a personal or family history of colorectal cancer. The Cologuard test is not a replacement for a colonoscopy in high risk patients. Cologuard test performance in adults ages 45 to 49 is estimated based on a large clinical study of patients 50 and older. False positives and false negatives can occur. Cologuard is available by prescription only. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Indeed. Typically, your college major is unlikely to be your profession, and that's certainly the way it was for me. So it's really important to be extremely flexible and open minded about what you're willing to pursue. Think broadly in your search. That's why it's important to think outside of the box and tap into your skills for your next career move. Indeed, Career Scout can help you land your next role fast leveling up your job search process with personalized recommendations and support. Being open to change helped me explore roles I hadn't imagined, which made my career richer and more fulfilling. Indeed, Career Scout can help you do the same by connecting you to opportunities you might not have considered based on your skills and interests. It's like a personal career coach that makes every part of the job searching process Easier. It can tailor your resume for specific, specific applications, match you with new opportunities, and even help you practice your interviews. Indeed's mission is to empower people to use their skills to find better work. And Career Scout is their latest innovation to help you do that. The future of job searching is here and it's called Indeed Career Scout. Try it today in the Indeed.

[Michelle Obama]

Appreciate. Have you guys. Do you guys go back to your homes, your neighborhoods? Have you spent some time back there reinvesting?

[Stephen Jackson]

My family's still there. I did, I opened a. I tried to open a school there one time but as of today I go home, see family, but I lost a lot of siblings in the last couple years. So I just. It brings back memory. So I just try to stay away from home.

[Matt Barnes]

I get back to Sacramento, I mean I'm very interested in policy. So I've been up to the Capitol and helped pass police brutality bills and helping. Kevin Johnson was a former NBA player who was the mayor of Sacramento who kind of inspired me to think about possibly I gave myself, I think at 31 or 32 when I was still in the NBA. I was like by 50, I'm gonna be the mayor of my Hometown. So I'm 45 now, so I don't know. But I've been doing a lot of grassroots stuff back there with equal opportunity cannabis stuff and again walking the state capitals and doing that kind of stuff. So not directly in my neighborhood, but just more kind of giving back to the city and planting those seeds in case I do dec to go back one day and you know, do something.

[Michelle Obama]

Do you think you might get into politics?

[Matt Barnes]

I could. I mean, I love politics. It's something that.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Yes.

[Matt Barnes]

Something that I really found fascinating at first. What interested me in politics, it wasn't so much the policies, it was more. I just saw Kevin Johnson revitalize his neighborhood. He came from one of the worst neighborhoods in Sacramento and he kind of turned it upside down in a good way and provided a lot of job opportunities and just opportunity for people. That's what inspired me. I have a 6 year old and 11 month old to go with my 6 year old twins. So daddy, duty is always first and foremost.

[Michelle Obama]

Absolutely. And politics, we suck the life out of that.

[Matt Barnes]

Right. So when, if it ever presents itself, once my boys are old enough and it really kind of set, you know, it's something I may take a look at.

[Michelle Obama]

Do you consider yourselves outliers in your, I don't even wanna say your industry, but in the peer group of athletics men. And I'll say that because I found that, you know, it was always very easy when we would reach out, because we would always reach out to top athletes, to top entertainers. Wnba, women always signed up when we all voted. You know, from college on, it was always hard to get the brothers to, you know, to focus. I'm just wondering why, what are we missing, you know, in sports where women athletes are ready to, you know, go whole hog?

[Matt Barnes]

I want him to answer first. Cause I think he's come a long way, but he has. And you know, this is a very interesting question because I was someone who dove in once I started learning about it, but he was someone on the other side. He'd only seen. And I'll let him speak for himself, he'd only seen the bad side of stuff. So what is my vote or what is my voice gonna do?

[Stephen Jackson]

And especially, you know, with, you know, George Floyd was my close friend, like my twin. So seeing that whole situation, you know, seeing both sides of it with people that are there for the right reasons and people that are not, you know, it'll rub you the wrong way because you're dealing with a situation where this is somebody that you love. That passed.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Stephen Jackson]

But now you using this for a political gainer, you know, So I seen both sides. So for me, I actually start asking them questions because there's a lot I don't understand and don't know. I kind of leave with my heart, you know, and I'm not big on hope that if you want to do something for somebody, do it. If you know what they need, do it. That's just how I look at it. So. And I know politics is not that clear cut. So I'm open now to listen to him and to learn more about politics because, you know, I understand how it affects us from the George Floyd situation. So I'm always been one person that I don't know everything. And I've been willing to learn. But that situation with me, you know, not sleeping some nights, you know, seeing how people really hate. Hate other races, like, I've never experienced that and been in the middle of it in my life. So to see that, it opened my mind to a lot of things. So I'm willing to understand people and ask questions. And I don't think if I would have went through that situation and seen all the pain and people hurt and being in 29 states on my own dime, giving this to neighborhoods that I'm not from and to see how much we need stuff, I'm open to learning any and everything Involving politics now.

[Matt Barnes]

So.

[Stephen Jackson]

So I credit that to him and I credit that to the situations that I was able to experience.

[Matt Barnes]

And I just think this is a marathon and not a sprint. And you guys know that. And I think the reason why I jumped in. And obviously we knew that there was going to be a ton of people who were voiceless. But then also becoming a father, you always want the best for your kids. And at one point, I'm not going to be here to guide them and do everything. So I wanted to try to be a part of something and understanding the power of our platforms. I mean, we have athletes low key run every aspect, whether it be fashion, you know, our opinions are heavy, we got not necessarily arguments, but definitely disagreements. Because I'm just like, you know, I feel like what he just said, I was just like, there's so many people that feel like you. So if you would come out and explain that, I think people would kind of. Okay, I get why you don't. But now that he's willing to listen, I think it's huge. So we never disagree.

[Stephen Jackson]

We disagree for about a good week.

[Matt Barnes]

Yeah, he was mad.

[Stephen Jackson]

Cause I'd be honest, we love each other. So it was healthy conversation.

[Matt Barnes]

I would be checking on him, just understanding, you know, we was going through with the George Floyd stuff and just understanding to be able to embrace the opportunity. And, you know, being a leader on the basketball court is one thing, but, you know, this guy led the biggest protest the world's ever seen. You know what I mean? So to understand and be able to galvanize that and carry that momentum to the next level, as I'm always, I've always been a team guy, you know, you talk about principles. You learn in AAU that you don't learn anymore. You learn, I think if it's taught the right way. You learn so much stuff from team sports. So I'm always trying to bring people in and understand that, you know, the fist is stronger than the. The most important thing on the court for us at the time is to be able to be focused. Because no matter how crazy the world is, we're paid a lot of money to do our jobs. And there's no excuse whether your mom dies, your kid's sick, you know, none of that matters when you're on the basketball court, you know, so again, that's why I respect. I may not like, but I respect everyone's decision whether they want to use their platform or not, because it is. It's a lot. You know what I mean? And I even feel Today, not playing. I'm just like, every day I look on social media like, this stuff is heavy.

[Stephen Jackson]

You know, I think too, growing up, we become numb to social. So, like, you know, we see family members, can't afford medicine and die. We see friends, accidental murders and stuff. So much growing up. So when you get to the point where you having success and you're able to change your family lives, like, you kind of come numb to the stuff that you grew up seeing. And that's not right. You know what I'm saying? You gotta go back and try to help, you know, somebody else, and so they won't go through the same situations you've been through growing up. So, you know, a lot of kids don't see it because a lot of these kids is in the NBA. They didn't struggle, struggle. You know, a lot of them didn't struggle, so they don't know what it's like.

[Michelle Obama]

And that's new now, right?

[Matt Barnes]

Yeah, that's a new wave that a little bit more. A lot of kids grew up. I grew up on food stamps and drugs and violence. Like, my kids grew up behind private. In, behind gates, in private schools. You know what I mean? So these kids don't have.

[Stephen Jackson]

They.

[Matt Barnes]

I don't think a lot of them really know their why, you know, because everything has been. These kids now are getting more money in high school and college than some guys are getting in the mba. So it's just like, where's the grind? We had to grind to get to a certain level or grind to get a certain amount of money. And now thanks to it, because we've always talked about athletes should be paid, but these kids are getting paid a lot earlier and they're getting a lot of money. So where is their mindset at again? What is their why? So it's just a different time now. And I'm happy for all these kids because we busted our asses to make sure this is the way they got to grow up, you know, I mean, again, to his point, we don't want our kids. I don't want the kids, my kids, to struggle with the racism and the food stamps and living with family and family, them with us. Like, I worked my butt off so they didn't have to do that. But at the same time, how do you instill those qualities in your kids to understand that, hey, this is not the, you know, we're blessed. This is not. We're not the richest family, but we're comfortable enough to know that the rest of the world may not see this or live like this.

[Stephen Jackson]

That's why I give him credit. He's done a great job of changing the trajectory of his kid's life. But you wouldn't know, you know, they're very down to earth, they're very humble, they're good boys. So they don't carry themselves like we've been living a great life. They're very humble. And when you're a parent, that can come from the struggle and change their life, but also instill that into the kids. I think that'd be the best ones to have, the best in both worlds because you gonna deal with some stuff, stuff in life that you don't have the blueprint for and you gonna have to figure it out, you know, on the fly. So I mean, that's just life. But I like the fact that he, what he said, because you want to change your kids life, but you still want those to have the morals that we grew up with. We're saying, yes, ma'.

[Craig Robinson]

Am.

[Stephen Jackson]

Open doors. A lot of kids don't do those little things no more. Holding doors for the elders and stuff like that. So if you can instill those morals into your kids, but also understand they're still blessed, I think that'd be the best kids.

[Michelle Obama]

How do you do that? How are you all doing that?

[Matt Barnes]

I think parenting, I think when we grew up and I'm 45, it was a dictatorship. What my parents said went, period, you know what I mean? And if you talk back, you were going to meet the consequences. I think now it has to be, we have to meet in the middle. I think it's more of a conversation now because of the Internet and because they have access to so much stuff at a younger age and they're hearing different voices and different opinions and seeing stuff we may not know they're seeing at a certain age. So with me particularly, my twins are 16, I have a 6 year old, then I have 11 month old. So it was always for me leaving little breadcrumbs, knowing that I'm going to have to cross this bridge eventually. And then it was just kind of leaving breadcrumbs with girlfriends and holding hands and hugging and then kissing. And I was thankful and they're probably going to get mad at me. But when the boys were about to start having sex like that, I think we're close. Can we? And so I knew I did something right to know that my sons felt comfortable in a monte. And I was like, did you tell your mom? They're like, no, we can't tell mom. You Know what I mean? So they felt comfortable enough to come to me to ask something that I hid from my parents, and I'm sure 90% of the kids would hide from their parents is, you know, we're about to step into a whole new space of girlfriends and sex and that kind of stuff. So to answer your question, I just think it's more of bringing our old school morals and discipline and meeting them halfway, understanding what this generation and this culture is like. Because the last thing you want to do, and I credit my kids a lot, especially being in this media space, is being old and outdated in your ways, because you get attacked for that these days. And that kind of thinking doesn't elevate at all. So finding that old school discipline and morals and understanding and meeting with this new generation of just life is at the palm of their hands.

[Michelle Obama]

And you can do that way earlier than you think with kids, you know, you can't use big words, you can't use examples that don't make sense to them. But if we sort of fully see children as people, and not as our little mini me's or people who are just here for our entertainment and our comfort, but as humans in the room who have real legitimate questions, I mean, I always say our kids have a lot of questions because the only thing they have to do in life is watch us. They ain't working, they don't have worries. They're watching everything we do, everything we say.

[Matt Barnes]

Absolutely.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, and if we don't explain ourselves to them, if we think, oh, you're too young to understand, you know, you're automatically cutting, you're taking away their crap.

[Stephen Jackson]

I think for me, watching my mom made me a great parent. My dad stayed five minutes away from me. He's gone now, but he never was around. My mom worked from six in the morning. You know those graveyard shits where your mom go to work at six in the morning, she get up at six in the evening. You don't even see her when you get home from school. So I seen the dedication that she put. But she also never demeaned my father. She never demeaned him in no type of way. Never spoke bad of him. So when I started having my own kids, you know, when I.

[Matt Barnes]

And you got a lot of them?

[Stephen Jackson]

I got a lot of them.

[Michelle Obama]

Do you do. How many kids?

[Stephen Jackson]

I got six girls.

[Matt Barnes]

17. Okay.

[Stephen Jackson]

No, I don't have. I don't have no 17 kids.

[Michelle Obama]

Okay?

[Stephen Jackson]

I got five. I got five girls on my own, one out of marriage, and I got two boys Matt, you know how he.

[Matt Barnes]

Is on the show.

[Stephen Jackson]

I can't do that so good.

[Craig Robinson]

It's like we're watching.

[Matt Barnes]

I'm on my best behavior, but every once in a while I gotta poke.

[Stephen Jackson]

Him a little bit. It wouldn't be him if he don't. It wouldn't be him. But just. Just learn from her and watching her do the things she did. And as I started having my kids, you know, it's a lot of situations where I could have responded out of emotion. Imagine being at your child's game. The mother poisoned him so much that all his teammates will come and talk to you, but your son ignores you. So I'm leaving games crying because I don't know how to respond. But seeing my mom not demean my daddy, get up every day and do what she had to do for us, that showed me, look, just continue to do your part. It'll work out, work itself out, you know, and eventually then. But if I wouldn't have known that, if I wouldn't have seen such a strong woman raising us and working hard.

[Craig Robinson]

For us every day now, you guys. So both of your careers are kind of mirrored, right? You had to really overcome obstacles to get to where you were. Then you get to where you are, and you gotta overcome even more obstacles. And I would be interested in hearing how are you helping your kids understand those obstacles and then. And overcoming their own. Because like you said, we all came up differently than the way we're raising our kids. And I hate being the old guy to say, oh, back in the day.

[Stephen Jackson]

You have to though, you have to do it, because they'll never have it as worse as we had. And I think that's the only thing I tell my sons. Your journey's gonna be different from mine, but you won't have to work as hard as I have. You have your own journey, you have your own ups and downs. Your own stuff you gonna go through. But I paved a way from you, a way for you where it can be easy. You know, the road, the blueprint, and basically playing basketball, if that's what you want to do. So I've done everything, you know, the good and bad, for you to know what not and what to do. So I think that's a blessing to have. Cause we didn't have that. I never had an NBA player come talk to me as a kid and tell me, you can make it or not to do this. So just so I had the experience to give him. I think he's ahead of the curve already.

[Matt Barnes]

And I also Think too from a different standpoint. And it's unfortunate, but it's the norm now is just broken homes, you know what I mean? I divorced my twin's mom when they were five years old and we had to learn how to mom and my dad's house this weekend, mom's house next weekend. And how can we still bring a village together to let them know we love them and support them and our love will never waver. Although your mom and I aren't together, our love for you, you guys are still the apple of both of our eyes and we're gonna do anything. And then unfortunately with my second situation now I'm in a similar situation with my 11 month old and my 6 year old now where you know, their mom and I split up. So to me it's really a lot of mental, A whole lot of we talk sports and we talk, but to me it's just making sure they're okay. Because again, although it's the norm, it's still tough on a child. I mean I think the divorce rate for professional athletes is like in the 70s, you know what I mean? So again, unfortunately we fell into that statistic but at you know, understanding and as the twin, it's, it's night and day that the twins now the twins completely understand. You know, I get along with my ex and her husband and again it's a village for them, but it's new to my two youngest. So trying to explain to my six year old like what is going on, obviously the baby doesn't know any better, but to explain to my 6 year old that mommy and daddy don't live together no more, unfortunately. But you know, you're still, we're coming, we're still doing stuff as a family for birthdays, graduations, holidays. We're going to still make it as comfortable as we can because there is no blueprint for broken families. You just gotta hope that, you know, you keep the kids first and that you can be cordial enough to make sure their childhood is still what it needs to be. Although we're not together day to day anymore. So. And I think again that part of my story isn't unique. I think it's very common and to be able to still put the kids first no matter what you're going through with your ex husband or ex wife, I think is always the goal. And it's not as easy as it's, I mean I had some hard times with my twins, with my ex wife just trying to get on that page. And thankfully we're there now and again this newer situation with my younger ones has been easier with her and I still communicate constantly and where we're putting the kids, but I know my 6 year old sometimes has issues with it, you know what I mean? So just making sure that I'm loving on him and communicating with him more as you're only six but I'm going to communicate with you as if you're old, older and because I think you understand what's going on. So again, there's no blueprint for this. But you know being a father is my greatest accomplishment and the thing I love absolute most on this earth. So I gotta pour. Although the situations didn't work, still pour everything I can into my kids.

[Stephen Jackson]

You're present. You've been present from day one for all your kids and that's what all fathers need to understand. Just be present. It ain't about money, it ain't about time.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Stephen Jackson]

Make it presence felt in your child life and mask the mask out of it.

[Craig Robinson]

This episode of IMO is brought to you by Progressive Insurance who help people move forward and live fully. Owning a home can be one of the most powerful ways to build financial security. But for many, especially first generation buyers, it can feel out of reach. That's why I appreciate what Progressive is doing. In 2024, they contributed over $7 million to help individuals and families break the cycle of renting by providing support, offering educational resources and developing tools to build long term financial stability through home ownership. Their work goes beyond just insurance. They're opening doors through their newly created up payment program. Progressive is helping first generation home buyers move closer to the dream of home ownership by offering eligible applicants a chance to receive a down payment assistance grant. You know, owning a home for me made me feel grounded and also set me up for the future. And as a coach, when you're like life is dependent on wins and losses, it's really important to have the comfort of a really nice home to come home to, especially for your family. Homeownership is one of the biggest investments you'll ever make and Progressive wants to help more people take that life changing step. Learn more [e-mail] OpenTheHouse.

[Podcast Announcer]

You may have heard our documentary podcast last year about Stevie Wonder called the Wonder of Steve. Well, I want to be the first to tell you about the next podcast from Higher Ground that just came out. It's about the legendary Bella Kuti. He is a musical genius from Nigeria who made some music that I really love. Combining funk, jazz and soul into a whole new genre called Afrobeat. It's a beautiful show about a unique figure in musical history who mixed art with activism. So check out Talla Couti Fear no Man right now on Audible and wherever you get your podcasts.

[Craig Robinson]

This episode of IMO is brought to you in part by Acorns. You know, one of the most valuable pieces of money advice I've ever gotten is that financial wellness isn't about how much you make. It's about making the most of what you have. That's something I've carried with me from my time on Wall street to today. And that's why I love Acorns. Acorns is a financial wellness app that makes it easy to start saving and investing for your future. You don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you get started with the spare money you've got right now. Even if all you've got is spare change, you don't need to be an expert. Acorns recommends a diversified portfolio that can help you weather all the market's ups and downs. You just need to stick with it. And Acorns makes that easy. Acorns automatically invest your money, giving it a chance to grow with time. The best advice I've gotten was from my father and that was to pay yourself first. So sign up now and join over 14 million all time customers who have already saved and invested $25 billion with Acorns. Plus, Acorns will boost your new account with a $20 bonus investment offer. Only available at acorns.com imo that's a C O R-N-S.com imo to get your $20 bonus investment today from Acorns. Mighty Oaks do grow. Investing doesn't have to be complicated. Acorns makes it easy to invest for your future, plan for tomorrow and spend smarter today. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisor LLC and SCC registered investment advisor. View important [e-mail] IMO.

[Michelle Obama]

How do you all manage the emotional presence for your children as men? I know. Matt, in an interview I heard you say that you hadn't cried.

[Stephen Jackson]

Yeah, that's what we did. I cried. I've always cried. A few minutes ago I cried.

[Craig Robinson]

I cr.

[Stephen Jackson]

I cried.

[Michelle Obama]

Have you cried yet?

[Matt Barnes]

I haven't. I wanna. I wanna learn. I don't know.

[Stephen Jackson]

Came close when we had.

[Matt Barnes]

Yeah. Jason Wilson.

[Stephen Jackson]

I'm hoping we can get some off the camera time with him. Cause he came close.

[Matt Barnes]

Yeah, he was special. And I mean that interview Was so special because we didn't even go off any of the. It was just freestyle. Once we had it started having that real conversation, and I felt vulnerable, and I felt okay with it because I know me sharing my story. There's a ton of people that have similar journeys or have the same issues. Why he can't cry, I don't know. I want to. Cause I know to be a great cleans again. I've touched on emotional. The emotional side and the emotional intelligence of kids. And again, it's just conversating, you know, One of my twins, this is supposed to be a big summer for him, and he went to a top 100 camp and fractured his ankle, so he had to watch the entire summer. And it's just one. You know, you got a twin brother out there doing his thing, and then the other twin is just like. And so one twin. The school, they're starting to talk to one twin, and then the other twin's like, what about? You know what I mean? So just again, that emotional and letting them know we still got him and you still have plenty of time to show the world what you can do. And this is. You know, this is gonna build character and. Cause there's. Again, to Jack's point, I mean, their journeys are different, and kids run from the grind these days, and they transfer and they're jumping all around. So I was like, this is gonna be. I was like, I promise you, you're gonna be better.

[Michelle Obama]

Do your kids cry? Do they feel they do?

[Matt Barnes]

Yeah, they're definitely comfortable enough, too. You know what I mean? But again, they didn't. You know, for us growing up, and it was probably something like growing up in the age, crying, showing a sign of weaknesses. Huh?

[Stephen Jackson]

What?

[Matt Barnes]

You know, and mental health is what? Like, mental health just started becoming a conversation maybe five or six years ago. You know, if you cried, you were soft. If you had issues, like, forget your issues, you know, And I was someone to the point where I made it through all the bad stuff I had to go through. So the mental health, like, what are you talking about? Like, I'm not letting that hold me back. And then when I started getting counseling and realizing, like, hey, some of the stuff from your childhood is the reason why you're not empathetic as you need to be, or sympathetic or you put up walls. It's just like, okay, now I need to. You said little Mat. It made me laugh. That's what my counselor says. Like, you know, you gotta tap in with little Matt and fix those things that, you know, My parents didn't know that they were doing it wrong, but that sometimes they were doing it wrong. And it caused issues for me as an adult. So again, being very aware of the surroundings and the environment I put my kids in, considering that I'm into unfortunately failed situations. But I have kids with kids in those situations. So how do you stay on top of it mentally and then from the loving side of it as well?

[Michelle Obama]

I mean, failure isn't a bad thing.

[Matt Barnes]

For as long as you learn from it.

[Michelle Obama]

In their pain, I mean, that's something that Barack and I try to remember all the time. It's like seeing the vulnerability, seeing the fear, it kind of gives. I found them permission to have those same emotions. We think we're being strong for our kids. We think we're shielding them. But when my girls perfect up, it's when we talk about failure, right? And to see two parents who have succeeded at a certain level, you know, we have to make it a point, right? Because they. They weren't around when we were grinding, struggling when he lost congressional bid, when I failed the bar the first time, when, you know, we had an argument or when, you know, they. They were too young for. So it becomes even more important for us to take them down those emotional paths. Because kids like ours, they have so much support, but they have so much pressure. And it's not from the outside world. It's internal. You know, it's like, my mom and dad did this. My mom and dad is so awesome. I don't want to disappoint them. Like, they're having those little thoughts in their heads, right? And we. You have to be really, really deliberate about breaking that stuff down for them, giving them permission. Making failure like, that's part of the journey.

[Matt Barnes]

Learn from it.

[Michelle Obama]

So look at us.

[Matt Barnes]

But also too, I think when you're young, you think the road to success and whatever success that is for you is like this.

[Michelle Obama]

That's right.

[Matt Barnes]

And it's the furthest thing from the truth. But as you get older, you start to see like, hey, that failure or that mishap is going to help me get back on track. But again, that's why I said the early protecting your kids. Too much to me is you're gonna set em up once they're free and have to really fend for this world. Like, if they haven't seen anything, they're gonna have a hard time finding who they are as adults.

[Michelle Obama]

We had to be so deliberate about that, right. Cause our girls had Secret Service agents until Malia went to college. Which we were thrilled about. In the teen years, Farack was like, I'm gonna get reelected just so that my girls have Secret Service.

[Matt Barnes]

In the teen years, you ain't sneaking off and doing nothing you ain't supposed to do.

[Michelle Obama]

Nobody's sneaking, doing anything. But at the same time, I had to give them enough rope to sneak, you know, because just like you, it's like you got to learn what trouble is before you run into it. You know, you gotta have the baby trouble. The trouble of being at the wrong party at the wrong time. You gotta, you know, learn. You gotta learn how to drive. You gotta get a ticket. You gotta get through an airport by yourself. Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

The trouble where the ramifications aren't big enough to ruin your life.

[Stephen Jackson]

Well, and also. Cause a lot of people don't get out and make it out of those situations.

[Michelle Obama]

And also, I wanted them to have some of the. Those experiences when they were coming home to me.

[Matt Barnes]

Right, so you could still talk through it and work through it.

[Michelle Obama]

Right. So you guys have such deep wisdom when it comes to fatherhood. How has that impacted your love lives? What have you. How have you learned?

[Craig Robinson]

Here you go, fellas.

[Michelle Obama]

Because there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of.

[Matt Barnes]

With me, I'm Michelle. I'm learning. I'm learning daily.

[Michelle Obama]

So you didn't let me fill in that blank.

[Matt Barnes]

Yeah, I'm learning, learning. I'm learning daily. And, you know, it's really within myself and understanding. Cause I think we get such a jaded point of view being professional athletes for however long you're a professional athlete. And then for us to be professional athletes and then still jump right on big TV and still kind of keep. We were both. I mean, he was a better scorer than me and accolades on scoring, but we were both somewhat role players. But we were able to transition into this media space and somewhat be stars and come kind of, you know, trendsetters in this space. So I think as athletes, you have such a false sense of just reality at times and being able to look yourself in the mirror and like, hey, all this drama here and you want to point the finger at other people, you need to point at yourself first. You know, being able to look at the mirror and understand, like, where your faults were and what I could have did better. Even if it wasn't all the way my fault, what could I have did better? So really, just a lot of reflection. I'm at a real reflective point of my life right now, just kind of understanding, trying to build a better, better Relationship with God. Because I know all that stuff is going to help me be that are in every field. And so, again, I'm currently single, and again, not necessarily looking for anything, because I think right now, Maura is just like, I gotta get little Matt all the way together. And that's gonna help grown Matt be a better man. Father, owner, friend, and business partner.

[Michelle Obama]

What if I tell you if you cried once, you'd find the love of your life?

[Stephen Jackson]

I can't wait to be there. Cause it's gonna help me, too.

[Matt Barnes]

I need it. I just. I need it.

[Craig Robinson]

You know, when it'll. It'll come.

[Stephen Jackson]

It's supposed to.

[Craig Robinson]

When your boys. It's gonna come from your boys.

[Matt Barnes]

Because I would. You know, it's funny you said that. I'm just thinking they'll be 17, and I only have another year and a half with them. And they're gone.

[Craig Robinson]

When they're gone, that might be the time. So when he drives them to college, go with them, Take them to the dorm.

[Michelle Obama]

But we had one of those moments with Barack when we dropped Malia off, because we still did because we tried to do all the normal stuff, even as president, you know, so she had to go a day earlier so that the motor. Presidential motorcade. We could go onto campus, do the thing, you know, take her boxes up. Cause I was like, we are not farming that out. You know, she's living home, right? So I. You know, so we're up there, the roommates, parents got to come early, and so we're doing all the college stuff. I. You know, making her bed. Cause whenever they went to camp or somewhere, I said, I'll make your bed once, and I'll make it really neat and nice.

[Craig Robinson]

That's up to you.

[Michelle Obama]

Got her room all set up. And you could tell Barack was totally clueless. He didn't know where to be. We gave him a lamp from Ikea and said, put it together. Here, you take this box. You put it together. There was nothing to put together, but he was over there with his lamp for, like, two hours, you know? And then came time. We took her to lunch at some restaurant. And then we had to leave. We had to get in this motorcade and leave. Leave the baby behind, you know, and to watch her standing at that restaurant. Ugh. Waving goodbye. So I'm crying, you know, Barack gets in the car. You know, we're driving back to the Air Force One in the motorcade. You know, we're a little quiet, and I hear this. That was literally the sign. And I had to look over and be like. The agents are like, sir, are you okay? And he's like. It's like, just, man, just do it. Just cry. Let it go. Make it happen, you know? But it was like, you know, there was just a deep kind of, you know, leaving your kids in a place, you know, and saying, that's it.

[Stephen Jackson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. I want to ride to.

[Matt Barnes]

You want to ride with me to drop them off to college or something?

[Michelle Obama]

I want to ride to drop off.

[Matt Barnes]

By the way, guys, Michelle's gonna be joining us today, so be on your best.

[Michelle Obama]

It's like, I'm here.

[Stephen Jackson]

I'm.

[Michelle Obama]

I'll make your bed.

[Matt Barnes]

There you go.

[Michelle Obama]

While your father cries over the lamp.

[Matt Barnes]

I'm looking forward to it again. I don't know what it is. I just feel like I lost my mom. That's how he and I became close. I lost my mom in 2007, and I had to be the rock for the family. My dad was miserable. My dad was lost. My sister was hurt. My. Everyone wasn't. But I had to. I played a game the next day. You know what I mean? I've always kind of had to be. No matter who it was, I had to be the rock for everyone else. And it's just like, there was at times where I'm hurt, but it's just like it won't. How do you release it? So I'm hoping.

[Michelle Obama]

Have you picked people that you can let go with? I'm getting back to the question of relationships, and. Stephen, you haven't said a word.

[Stephen Jackson]

I'm ready to answer it. I just don't want to interrupt the quote.

[Matt Barnes]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Stephen Jackson]

Well, with me, I just. I made a lot of mistakes. I've always held myself accountable. Yeah, that's my biggest thing. But one thing I've always did, I've always kept my heart in the right place, and I've always lived my life to show God I deserve everything. He blessed me. So I have a big heart. So even when people do me bad, if I was done bad in relationships, I've always did what I was supposed to do to make sure the other person, you know, was taken care of was right. So I don't feel bad about any situation I've been in because I've always left that person better leaving me than when they came with me. So just experiencing me being accountable, I held myself accountable for everything. So I don't regret anything. You know, I've done what I was supposed to do. I've been a father, I've been a friend. I've been the guy when I and I was treated like crap and still stood up and provided for people when they didn't deserve it. So it's just being able to look yourself in the mirror, you know, good or bad. I've been one of those guys. I came up with a saying, I make love to pressure. So nothing will make me become a bad person, become a bad human being. My heart is always in the right place. So I think that's how I handle every situation.

[Craig Robinson]

Welcome back to imo everybody. We're in October now and boy, the air's changing, the leaves are doing their thing and the pace is starting to really pick up. And I was just sitting here thinking about the holiday rush and it's coming. And also I started thinking about how do you use this time of year to prepare your business for the holiday and what's the one thing you're doing now that will pay off later? For me, that one thing is definitely making sure that I'm using Shopify. I mean, look, the holiday season is busy enough. You need to focus on your family, your friends, your hot cider, the things that actually matter. You don't need to be wrestling with a bunch of different platforms just to sell your product. That's where Shopify shines. They take the guesswork out of starting a business. Whether you've got a little side hustle or you're running a full blown storefront. Whether you're selling locally or globally, Shopify is the best place to start and grow. That's why so many new businesses choose to get their start right there. You know, the hassle of juggling a million logins and passwords, forget about it. With Shopify, everything is conveniently managed in one place. Platform everything. Inventory, payments, marketing. Life's already too busy and there is only so much one can remember in a day. So let Shopify help take some of the pressure off. October is your window. Fall into your next big move. Whether you're selling merch products or the next best idea, make sure that you do it via [e-mail] IMO for $1. It's time to put that business idea into action and start the next chapter again. That's shopify.com IMO1 link that has the potential to change your future. You know, this time of year reminds me of growing up on the south side of Chicago with my sister Michelle and the comfort meals we would e during the fall. You know, when the big fall recipes start coming out. You also have to worry about the mess they make. But you know what's changed the game for my family is this amazing little machine called Mill. You just drop in those apple cores and pumpkin peels, the dinner scraps, and Mill automatically transforms them overnight. It's completely odor and no fruit flies. Mill holds weeks of food scraps and turns them into these nutrient rich grounds. And I love being able to work them right into our soil. Knowing that the food I couldn't eat is now helping our plants grow is such a satisfying feeling. But you have to live with mill to really get it. Good thing is that you can try it risk free and get $75 [e-mail] IMO. That's mill.com IMO.

[Michelle Obama]

And you both are really powerful examples of building a life beyond a very long, prosperous, successful set of careers. Talk about how you even are able to wrap your heads around the next level of success without holding on too much to not being able to think to do the thing that made you. You know, that's a whole mental challenge right there. We see it. We see people not being able to walk away from their sport, not because they haven't achieved everything, but it almost feels like you're scared you haven't thought as much. As great as you are, it is clear that you haven't thought about anything. What's next? You guys have managed that pretty doggone well.

[Stephen Jackson]

I think for me, I took pride in being a team player while I was playing. So after basketball, you never know what's going to happen or what's going to go. But I think for me, being a solid guy, being a good friend to a lot of different good things happen for you. I had no idea what was gonna happen after basketball, to be honest. No idea. But I think, like I said, my relationship with Matt and building, just having the opportunity of the podcast has taken us to spaces that I never even believed. So for me, good things always happen to me because I wake up every day to show God I deserve whatever is coming in my life. I'm getting ready, ready for it. I'm not waiting till my blessing come. I'm getting ready for I live my life that way and he'll tell you I'm the biggest protector out of all our friends. I jump in front of everything for everybody. I'm loyal to a fault. But God continues to bless me because I love hard and I love my people hard. So the only reason I'm in this position is because I'm a good teammate. I have a great team around me. I would never take credit for where I'm at in my life today and the success we have. And I got a great team and a great group of people that we treat each other like family, we respect. If you can't be a good teammate, if you can't learn how to respect people and treat people how you want to be treated, you're not going to have any success. Especially as a basketball player. Because after basketball, they already coming to you with, expecting you to know everything and offer your name. Well, a lot of us don't know anything but basketball.

[Matt Barnes]

I don't know. I could just. My journey's been crazy fun because I think there was such not a misconception. Because I think a reputation earned, whether good or bad. And I had a borderline reputation. I was a habitual line stepper in the NBA. But I was also at the same time understanding that this isn't gonna last forever. I just look at myself as being so lucky that I played 14 years, got paid for 16 years to put a ball in a hoop. That's a dream. Like you wanna call that a job. To me, that's a dream. And then now I'm getting paid great money to talk and inspire and motivate and educate and talk trash and have fun. So to me, I don't feel like I've ever worked a day in my life. You know what I mean?

[Craig Robinson]

I love hearing that. And you know, we have a question from our listener. But before we get to the question, I would love it if you would talk to our listeners about what's really good about the NBA, but also what's really hard about it. Cause I don't think, I don't hear people talking about anything.

[Michelle Obama]

It sounds like a wonderful fantasy.

[Craig Robinson]

It always sounds like a wonderful thing. But having now worked in the front office of a couple of teams, I've seen behind the curtain. And I would love for you to share your thoughts on what's really, really hard about it.

[Stephen Jackson]

I'll just say two things. Two. I mean, one, everybody don't know how to be a professional. You have to learn. It's not just about basketball once you get there. I was blessed to have David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Steve Kerr, Steve Smith, all those guys in my early years. Cause I learned how to be a professional. I watched these guys. A lot of these kids have no. There's no vets and in the game, so they're not taught how to be a professional. For me, that's really it.

[Matt Barnes]

And being a professional and the politics side on and off the court.

[Stephen Jackson]

But you gotta learn how to do with the politics too. It's a lot of times I should have made the All Star Games. I didn't make it because of a guy who wasn't in trouble. He wasn't better than me, but he just wasn't in trouble and he made it. So you gotta learn how to deal with the politics tool in the NBA. That's a big part of it.

[Matt Barnes]

Just know, first and foremost, it's a business and you're very lucky to be a part of that business. And you gotta keep the first thing first. And I give professional athletes today a lot of credit. And not that we're. I'm. I mean, I'm eight years removed, but in those eight years, the game has changed so much and the world has changed so much. Like there's so much outside distraction now.

[Craig Robinson]

On media part of it.

[Matt Barnes]

On top of the money these kids are getting. I mean, these kids are getting. They're making $80 million a year just from this. On top of all the. You know what I mean? So it's just like, it's kind of just understanding, keeping the first thing first, knowing that it's a business, knowing that, you know, the average NBA career is three and a half years. You know what I mean? So what's going to set you apart? And I said earlier, when you get there, it's 10% physical and 90% mental. So how are you carrying yourself and understanding now? From the second we. I couldn't imagine if I had cameras on me at ucla, I probably wouldn't be here or even early in my career because we were just off the chain. We didn't know until we got around vets. And now the game, the NBA desperately. And I'm sure a lot of sports, it's getting younger and younger. So it's not the blind, but almost the blind leading the blind. When we came in the league, there was 38, 39, 40 year olds smoking cigarettes in the locker room. But just, hey, let's go buy your first sets of suits. You know, let's stay away from those women. You know, let's not waste your money on. There's. There's none of that in the game anymore. So I mean, what. There's so much given. A lot is. A lot is. Is. Is expected. And just you got to keep the first thing first in today's. Because there's just so many people with the money and with the exposure now of athletes, there's so many different distractions and so many people grabbing at you. But when it's gone, it's gone, you know, when it's gone, it's gone. So understand it. And to enjoy the journey. I know it's athletes, we're always next. Guy we lost last night. Or I had 30 last night. But tonight we play Enjoy the ride because the ride goes so fast. And if you don't sit back and appreciate the ups and downs, the goods and bads while you're there, when you're done, you're going to be like, damn, I wish I would have. I wish I would have, I wish I would have. So the business. Keep the first thing first and enjoy the journey.

[Craig Robinson]

So we've got a question from Tony in New York.

[Stephen Jackson]

Sup, Tony?

[Podcast Announcer]

I grew up with humble beginnings in both Baltimore and today, I find myself in a very different place. I'm successful, married, and raising a mixed race child in suburbia. As a black father, I carry the weight of my own lived experiences. I often find myself wrestling with how much of that to pass on to my son. Recently, his daycare flagged him for aggressive behavior and it hit a nerve. I want to raise a strong, confident black boy who understands his value. But I also know that the world doesn't always give our children the benefit of the doubt. I feel a tension between wanting to protect him by teaching him restraint and caution and not wanting to suppress his autonomy or spirit in the process. So my question is, how do you raise a child in a new reality without letting your old reality shape too much of their world? Like, how do you guide them with wisdom born of struggle without projecting your fears that may no longer serve them?

[Michelle Obama]

Ooh, Tony.

[Matt Barnes]

Great question, Tony. And I can tell by the way that that's my favorite group. I can tell by the way that the question he wrote, the question that he is very aware of just what's going on in here.

[Stephen Jackson]

Both sides. He's aware of both sides.

[Matt Barnes]

And I, I would say being a biracial man, it was different for me because it wasn't the norm growing up. But I think now, thankfully, the world is becoming more of a melting pot and it's more accepted. And I had the same thoughts as the twins were coming up. Like, people tried kkh, tried to kill me. I mean, I had to move and all this kind of stuff. So do I push, pour that trauma into my kids? Do I not make them aware of it? Do they learn about it? So luckily we live in a society today where I feel like, you know, what is it? Interracial or whatever the situation, biracial children are more of the norm. So I Just think it's a fine line. And I don't think this is a blanket answer. I think it's a situation by situation, circumstance where you have to take individual situations and break them down because you're gonna come across racism at some point and you don't wanna throw so much fear in them that they start hating other people. But you also want them to be naive and understand, like, hey, there are some people that were grown and raised a different way that we don't necessarily agree with, and they were taught hate instead of love and keep them in their place. But I'm also a firm believer, like, don't put your hands on me or don't put your hands on my children. You know what I mean? I'm for peace until you cross that line. So you always have to be able to protect yourself, yourself and defend yourself. But hopefully, you know, you teach them the right way to have a broader understanding of what this crazy world is about. And they, you know, they approach those situations with, you know, confidence first and foremost and an understanding.

[Stephen Jackson]

I started something doing a George Floyd time, something that says love for all who have love for all. And I always put every hand, every color emoji. But at the same time, you want to let you, especially a black young man, you want to let him know who he is, but also let him know that you. You don't need to demean the next race to make yourself look better. I think that's what a lot of races feel like. In order to make yourself look better, you have to demean the next. And that's something we don't do on our show. A lot of shows do that. Find something to talk about, demean somebody, and try to go viral. We've never done that. So I've always taught that to my kids, like, know who you are first. Because once you know who you are, can't nobody knock you off your rocket. Can't nobody make you say something or do something that you'll regret because you know who you are first. Second, understand that people gonna say things, but you never have to demean someone to make yourself look better. I think the world is real caught up in that. I'm gonna make him look bad so I can look.

[Podcast Announcer]

Nah.

[Stephen Jackson]

I've always taught it to my kids, so I've been grateful too, that my kids been growing up a lot around the different races, so they understand. I grew up a lot around the Mexicans. My best friend is Jewish, so Josh Passing was a coach of unlv, so. So I think just the way I live my life, that kind of knocked that stigma off my kids. But at the same time, I let them know who they are. Cause when you are a young black man, things, whether you understand it or not, you're gonna be treated differently, you're gonna be looked at differently, and a lot of it's gonna be harder for you than the next. That's just how it is as a black man. That's just how it is. And once they understand that, then they'll be willing to embrace it and don't look at it as starting behind.

[Craig Robinson]

That's a great point. That's a great. So I've got a son who's fully black, older, 33. And then I've got two younger sons who are biracial. And I've always thought. And even with my daughter, who's black, talking about communicating about race early, helping them understand that it's just. Life's not fair right now. Wasn't fair when we were coming up, and it's not fair now. It's better now, but it's not fair. You're gonna be looked upon a certain way because you're black. And I think having that discussion early helped them prepare for things as they come in. And we just try and talk about it, we try and talk our way through. And to Tony's point, I was always worried about my kids being mislabeled as over aggressive, because they were. And so we talked about, when you're in a. You go into a situation, you have to be aware that some people may think you're over aggressive. And that doesn't mean change who you are, but just be aware.

[Stephen Jackson]

Read the room.

[Craig Robinson]

Read the room. That's a great one.

[Stephen Jackson]

Read the room.

[Craig Robinson]

Read the room. Read the room. Because there are gonna be times. Cause my mom always talked about this. She always feels like she made me too non aggressive and made her over aggressive. And that was the times back in the 60s and 70s. So I don't want them to lose their ability to have a little edge about them, But I also want them to be aware that if you show that edge, you're gonna get profiled.

[Matt Barnes]

I just feel, again, I feel like it's an unfortunate situation, but black and brown parents have different conversations than the rest of the world. Because again, as I mentioned, like, race is just a part of. Hey, this is how you're supposed. This is just another hurdle we're gonna have to hop. You know, this is not a conversation that, you know, unfortunately, white families have to worry about police discrimination and People looking at them a certain way because. Just not so again, that's why when I initially asked the question, you take this in stride as well. This is just another teaching point. And again, it's something that they're gonna face at some point and just make sure they're prepared and ready for it.

[Michelle Obama]

One other thing I would just add to Tony is. And how old was his son? Or is his son? Did he say?

[Matt Barnes]

Didn't say.

[Michelle Obama]

But when it comes to school, because that's something we've talked about. You know, schools are. You know, the curriculum hasn't been thoughtful in about 100,000 years. Right. I mean, it's not keeping up with the modern child and is definitely not thinking about. About who boys are. So a lot of the curriculum, how the day is structured, doesn't work for boys. Boys need to be moving, thinking girls are different. Right. But everybody is taught the same. And I'm sure that aggressive label at school, which hear that a lot among schools, labeling black kids kids of color early, that is a dilemma. Because once you get tracked or marked, then, you know, so I would say to Tony, then that means that as a parent, you gotta be involved in school. You know, if you can talk to your kid till they're blue in the face, that's important. But it is important, especially if you have a black son, for them to know you and to know that I will come up there and I will come up there in a proper way. But this black boy, mixed boy, has someone looking out for him. And I think that that becomes even more critical for boys, for mixed race boys, for black boys, that parents, you can love your son, but especially when they're young and they haven't developed their own voice, you know, that's what being an involved parent is, you know, and for a father to be involved, big deal. You know, that's a big deal. So that may mean go to some of these field trips, you know, go to a. Make sure you go to all. Cause Barack went to every parent teacher conference their entire life. In the White House, you name it. He was gonna go. Motorcade, motorcycles, swap men. We're there, everybody, we were there. Shutting down Mass Avenue, getting to this place.

[Matt Barnes]

That means a lot, though, by the way. That means a lot.

[Michelle Obama]

It meant a lot to the girls, but it said something to the school. You know, it's like it's not just me, but their father knows what's going on. So you guys are engaged fathers, which is beautiful. Being engaged in that school structure, just knowing, you know, that doesn't mean you want to have to go up to the school and tear stuff up, and it's just like.

[Matt Barnes]

But I will. If I need to, I will.

[Michelle Obama]

And you. And that's implied in my presence.

[Stephen Jackson]

Yeah.

[Matt Barnes]

You know, one thing I will say.

[Stephen Jackson]

Let me say this right. I know exactly what you mean. My daughter's going to sixth grade, but since she's been in kindergarten, I've been going to. To a school. I put her to Instagram, Donut dates, Donut Daddy. They call me Donut Daddy School. But I'm not going there to tell somebody else. But I'm letting you know, this child here is love.

[Michelle Obama]

That's right.

[Stephen Jackson]

And her daddy's gonna be here. You know what I mean?

[Matt Barnes]

And also, too, one more thing. I think I'm okay with aggression because I think you can learn to tone that back. But I would rather be aggressive than have my child be walked over and disrespected and made fun of. Like I said, we can tune, like, aggressive. We can tune that back. But if you don't have that in you, that's hard to teach. So I'm okay with aggressiveness as long as it's following the rules, because that's something you can form and structure and pull back if you need to. But on the flip side, if you're someone that just gets walked over, that's gonna make me go crazy.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

And that makes me want to address part of the question that Tony said that he was. He was worried that his. He was imposing his lived experience on the kid. And what I would say to Tony, embrace your lived experience, because that's gonna help little Tony later in life because it is powerful to know that your parent has gone through something similar and made it out.

[Stephen Jackson]

Experience is the best teacher.

[Michelle Obama]

That's right.

[Craig Robinson]

It's absolutely. Absolutely. And so.

[Matt Barnes]

Good question.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. Great question. Really got a question.

[Michelle Obama]

Really good question.

[Stephen Jackson]

Good luck to you and your son, man.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. And the fact that he's asking the question means he's involved, he cares.

[Stephen Jackson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, we need more fathers like that. And I think that's, you know, you guys are modeling that. I mean, I love the way you talk about your kids, how you are, you know, you're not bystander parents, that you are actively thinking about how to raise them. And that is not. That's not the mother's job exclusively. You know, it really matters. And you've seen it in a broken home or not divorced or whatever. Kids can understand that it didn't work out. Right. Things don't work out. People don't get along sometimes, you know, but that doesn't mean that you're not present. That doesn't mean you get scared away. And money shouldn't dictate that. You know, kids do not care about how much money you have. I don't care if you are unemployment, whether you were in jail once before, whether you were on crack at some point. Kids still want to see you in their lives. Just trying, you know. And I think that you guys model that in the way that you are actively trying to think about the words you say, how you show up in your kids lives. And I think it's important for our listeners to see that up close from some all the smoke athlete folks who could tell like it is still be engaged in sports, still know a lot about a lot of things and still show up as good men and good fathers.

[Matt Barnes]

So thank you.

[Michelle Obama]

We are grateful. Grateful.

[Craig Robinson]

Keep doing what you're doing, guys. Thank you. You got a couple fans.

[Michelle Obama]

Thank you for taking the time.

[Matt Barnes]

Really honored to be here.

[Michelle Obama]

Honored to be here.

[Stephen Jackson]

Honored to be here.

[Michelle Obama]

Hey there, it's Michelle and Craig. On our IMO podcast. We've brought in some incredible guests to answer your burning questions and share our opinions about the things that matter to.

[Craig Robinson]

All of us, like what success looks like in different families with Glennon Doyle, why we all need to learn how to say no with Taraji P. Henson and how failure can actually make you better in your career with our friend Keke Palmer.

[Michelle Obama]

We hope you'll all listen in every week. And did you know that you can hear the show on Amazon Music? Just open the Amazon Music app and search for IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson Today.