Trust Your Kids with Mara Brock Akil

Summary

Podcast Summary

IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson

Episode: Trust Your Kids with Mara Brock Akil
Date: October 22, 2025
Host: Higher Ground
Guest: Mara Brock Akil (TV writer/producer: Girlfriends, The Game, Being Mary Jane, Forever)

---

Main Theme / Purpose

In this episode, Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson are joined by acclaimed TV writer and producer Mara Brock Akil. The discussion centers on parenting, sibling dynamics, raising Black children—especially sons—in America, and the challenge of allowing kids to discover their own paths. Mara opens up about her family, her creative process, and her commitment to authentic Black storytelling. The trio also responds to questions from listeners about generational expectations, parental guilt, and redefining success, making for an episode rich in laughter, vulnerability, and practical wisdom.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Importance of Representation and Safe Spaces for Black Families

• The Martha’s Vineyard Experience

  • Mara and Michelle reflect on finding belonging and restoration in predominantly Black spaces like Martha’s Vineyard (04:00–08:00).
  • Quote: “To come to this island and see each other. The rest, restoration, the joy, the laughter, the food, the safety in numbers… but also you can chill out.”
    — Mara Brock Akil (07:24)

• Impact on Black Kids

  • The hosts discuss how Martha’s Vineyard provides Black children with a sense of normalcy, joy, and safety, which is particularly valuable compared to being the only Black family elsewhere (07:22–08:15).

2. Sibling Relationships: Love, Responsibility, and Legacy

• Mara shares about her late brother and the unique bond between siblings, discussing protecting, witnessing, and supporting each other (08:21–14:13).
• Michelle and Craig reflect on their own sibling dynamic, noting the importance of letting each child have space and individuality (09:56–17:09).
• Quote: “The sibling relationship is one of the most special relationships. And I tell them that… you guys are going to be left in it together. So how are you going to move together? How are you going to support each other?”
  — Mara Brock Akil (13:14)

3. Parenting Styles: Fostering Individuality & Avoiding Competition

• Michelle describes encouraging her daughters’ different personalities and ensuring sibling competition is minimized (16:28–17:47).
• Mara praises Michelle's approach, recounts the “rose and thorn” dinner table exercise, and adds her own twist—asking her son what made him laugh each day (18:07–19:49).

4. Encouraging Kids’ Voices and Emotional Development

• The importance of involving children in adult conversations to help them practice communication and emotional expression (20:14–21:59).
• Mara emphasizes that boys possess emotional intelligence, but their feelings are often internalized and expressed physically (22:16–23:09).
• Craig describes how car rides can lead to meaningful conversations with sons, away from direct eye contact (23:09–23:31).

5. Coming of Age, Firsts, and Social Experience for Black Boys

• Mara voices her parental concern about her sons missing key social experiences in predominantly white schools, such as first crushes and negotiating mutual desire (25:21–26:23).
• The group discusses how young Black boys often find themselves desexualized or made to feel threatening as they age, and how this affects their self-perception (26:28–29:30).
  • Quote: “Imagine being so cute and then suddenly so threatening.”
    — Mara Brock Akil (26:57)

6. The Power and Limits of Protection

• The conversation acknowledges parents’ instinct to shield kids from pain, but also the value in letting them stumble and develop coping skills under their roof (38:53–39:21).
• Quote: “Not that we want our children to fall, but if they’re gonna fall, let them fall and come home.”
  — Mara Brock Akil (39:15)

7. Allowing Kids to Define Their Success

• Listener Julia asks about the tension between generational sacrifice, privilege, and letting children choose their own paths (53:03–54:12).
• Michelle, Mara, and Craig advise acknowledging parental guilt, supporting kids through open communication, and not imposing fears or outdated measurements of success (60:13–62:49).
  • Quote: “Your math problem isn’t their math problem. Let them figure out what their math problem is.”
    — Craig Robinson (61:41)
  • Quote: “Trust in the fact that you give your kids tools...and then at some point you got to let them try out this new thing, this process.”
    — Michelle Obama (60:32)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On sibling bonds:

• “Our relationship is still thriving and growing. I feel his energy around me all the time…I really believe in the spiritual connection still. He’s not in body anymore, but he is in spirit with me.”
  — Mara Brock Akil (08:58)

On unique Black parenting concerns:

• “See, I always thought that Black boys had it easier. This is my ignorance because I grew up with daughters.”
  — Michelle Obama (26:23)

On letting kids have difficult experiences:

• “If they’re gonna fall, let them fall right there so they can see themselves.”
  — Mara Brock Akil (39:17)

On representation in storytelling:

• “I love the stories of us. I just see so many, so many opportunities that were missing at the time that I came in the industry.”
  — Mara Brock Akil (47:38)

On the pressures of generational success:

• “We have our own math equation, and we impose it on our kids rather than teaching them how to create their own math problem.”
  — Craig Robinson (61:41)

On the legacy and future of Girlfriends:

• “For Girlfriends, the movie…I feel the audience deserves the ending. Those characters deserve—We deserve an ending.”
  — Michelle Obama (66:33)
• “Don’t come nickel and diamond. This is worthy. It has an audience…It is not a favor. It is real beautiful business.”
  — Mara Brock Akil (66:43)

---

Key Timestamps for Segments

• 00:00–04:36 – Warm greetings, Martha’s Vineyard setting, personal introductions
• 04:36–08:15 – Black family experiences and belonging at Martha’s Vineyard
• 08:21–14:13 – Sibling love and responsibility; Mara on her brother’s ongoing impact
• 16:28–19:49 – Parenting strategy: avoiding sibling competition, fostering individuality
• 20:14–21:59 – Encouraging kids’ voices; family debates and practice in safe spaces
• 22:16–23:31 – Boys’ emotional intelligence and expression
• 23:31–26:23 – Concerns about Black boys’ social development in white institutions
• 26:28–29:30 – Shifting perceptions of Black boys as they age; society’s reaction
• 38:53–39:21 – Letting kids stumble while still under your roof
• 53:03–62:49 – Listener Julia’s question: generational guilt, supporting kids’ dreams, parental fears
• 63:11–67:38 – The legacy of Girlfriends, demand for a movie and proper resources
• 69:43–71:37 – (Listener Nora) Advice on burnout, stress, and scheduling self-care (Pep Talk)

---

Tone & Atmosphere

The conversation is warm, candid, and affectionate, balancing humor with vulnerability. The hosts and guest are relatable, down-to-earth, and honest—often laughing, sometimes becoming emotional, but always dispensing grounded, practical advice rooted in lived experience.

---

Takeaways for Listeners

• Prioritize open communication and intentional parenting—help kids foster individuality and emotional intelligence.
• Allow children the freedom to define their own success, supported but not limited by parental expectations or generational fear.
• Representation, community, and safe spaces matter deeply for Black families and children.
• Acknowledge and process parental guilt, but don’t let it drive parenting decisions.
• Storytellers like Mara Brock Akil play a vital role, not just in media, but in the ongoing conversation about Black identity, family, and belonging.

---

End of episode summary.

Transcript

[Michelle Obama]

Well, there are a lot of young black people that they get into college and they've never had.

[Mara Brock Akil]

They've never.

[Michelle Obama]

I don't think that's a boyfriend or girlfriend.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I don't think that's healthy.

[Michelle Obama]

I totally agree with you.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I don't think a lot of that.

[Michelle Obama]

Comes from being in all white environments as black kids.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Not to be felt like someone even likes you, even if it's for a week.

[Michelle Obama]

Yes.

[Mara Brock Akil]

There's no memory of a mutual desire and how to negotiate those feelings. There's no place for them to even practice those practices that we're talking about.

[Michelle Obama]

See, I always thought that black boys had it easier. This is my ignorance because I grew up with daughters. This episode is brought to you by Rivian. You got on your island wear.

[Craig Robinson]

I got my vineyard ware on.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, Howdy Doody.

[Craig Robinson]

How you doing?

[Michelle Obama]

I'm good. I'm good. We are in this beautiful barn on Martha's Vineyard, up island in Chilmark, and it's just a beautiful, beautiful place to record.

[Craig Robinson]

And would you do me the favor of explaining up island like you explained it to me? Because I was thinking up meant over, but up actually means high.

[Michelle Obama]

This is the higher elevation of the island, so you have more rocky cliffs over the ocean. If there are beaches, they are rocky and sandy. Whereas, you know, down island, where Edgartown Oak Bluffs are, it's flatter. It's more, you know, the elevation is closer to the ocean. So, you know, sort of the sandier beaches are there. So we are up island now.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, speaking of up island and all the rocky roads, this is the perfect place to test out the Rivians that we were given by Rivians.

[Michelle Obama]

This is the perfect terrain for Rivian owners. It is the perfect lifestyle.

[Craig Robinson]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

Because you have beaches, you've got the back roads. You need to be able to lift that vehicle up, lower it down. And I have driven my Rivian here, the ones we were gifted.

[Craig Robinson]

I am so excited about getting a chance to drive. It's really nice, isn't it?

[Michelle Obama]

It's really nice. Really easy to drive. And when you're going over these bumpy roads, you really don't feel it in the car because it sits up. So. So I really love it.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, we're excited today.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. We've got a great guest, somebody that I have been watching from afar, hoping to get to spend some time with. So I feel like, you know, this is the fun thing about this podcast. I get to meet people that I have admired from afar and spend some time with them.

[Craig Robinson]

And Unlike. Well, like you, I've admired her from afar, but just through her work. And she is the mastermind behind some iconic shows. So let me get right to her bio. Mara Brock Akil is a television writer and producer credited with 400 episodes of television, including one of my all time favorites, Girlfriends, that I hope we can dig into a little bit here. The game being Mary Jane. And in most recent fan favorite and critically acclaimed and a new Robinson favorite. So our whole family watched this whole series together forever. So without further ado, Maru Brock Akil, come on out.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Mara.

[Michelle Obama]

Welcome to imo, baby.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Thank you. Oh, my gosh, I am so happy to be here.

[Michelle Obama]

You are here. You are here. You are here. Yes, girl, yes.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Oh, my goodness. Welcome from afar. You've been watching me from afar. I'll be your friend forever.

[Michelle Obama]

I have. You know, first of all, you're beautiful. Oh, my goodness.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Thank you. Right back at you.

[Michelle Obama]

And I'm just like, who is this badass beautiful woman who is involved in everything and just sort of killing the game? So I have really been a fan and we actually got to meet a couple of days ago because a good friend of our, a mutual friend, Tracy, brought you to Barack's birthday bash here. He always we celebrate his birthday and have a little barbecue. So I was just thrilled when you walked in the door.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Oh, my goodness. I was. So it was quite a moment for me. I had to, you know so much respect for you and your family and to be that close in proximity and how loving I was, you know, it was a beautiful time. And you're like, oh, you know, you guys are who you are. But what I love mostly is that you are a family first.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah, that's just true.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Regular degular people having a regular degular doing a little electric slide, the babies.

[Michelle Obama]

Dancing in the middle of the floor.

[Mara Brock Akil]

But you do you come in first. And there was a moment that I really just. I just thank God. I love being there. I love being there for what it represents. But then we take that breath. You're like, oh, yeah. We're just here together having a good time on the Vineyard.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, that's what the vineyard represents to us. And I know to you, you were a long time.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Been coming for 14 years.

[Michelle Obama]

For 14 years.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And my first. Well, technically 15 years. My. I talk about Ralph Farquhar all the time. But, you know, it's important to have.

[Michelle Obama]

Talk for our listeners so people know who he is.

[Mara Brock Akil]

So Ralph Farquhar is an amazing storyteller himself, known as a showrunner, but he Has I met him when he was. He was my boss on Moesha. Sorry. Back up on South Central.

[Michelle Obama]

See, you've had so many shows.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Exactly. That's true. Yeah. Whoa, whoa, whoa. He's had so many shows. I think his career started in Happy Days. And he's talking about this place called Martha's Vineyard. And black people descend upon the island. What? Almost like we're like birds. We migrating over here or something. And the way he talked about it. Just wanted to see it, touch it, feel it. And I came. And I'll never forget this, because music is. It guides my work, but it guides my life and my memory. And Jay Z's Reasonable Doubt had just.

[Michelle Obama]

Dropped, so you can remember what dropped. Yes. And it's like the summer playlist.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Oh, it's the summer. It was interesting, too, because it was in July and it was a younger. It's a different August. It's a different island in July than it is in August.

[Michelle Obama]

It definitely is.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And it was younger people hanging out together, partying a lot. And we're gonna leave it there.

[Michelle Obama]

On your first.

[Mara Brock Akil]

How old were you when you were there?

[Michelle Obama]

If we do the math, how.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I was 20. And I was 26, so that was my first time. So then later, when we came on the island, it was right after jumping the broom and just wanted to be here and learning the legacy, learning about the island more historically, not just from a party perspective.

[Michelle Obama]

Yes.

[Mara Brock Akil]

It was just. This is where we needed to be. In fact, vacationing sometimes. Was just tired of being the only black family sometimes in these beautiful places. But to come to this island and see each other. The rest, restoration, the joy, the laughter, the food, the safety in numbers. But also you can chill out.

[Michelle Obama]

But it's a place where kids and little black boys and black girls, they can find love and they can stand in groups and not be bothered. They can loiter like kids should be able to do and feel safe. And parents don't have to worry.

[Mara Brock Akil]

They can see themselves in others as well. You know, can feel that freedom together. Can have those memories of what your nervous system feels like when it feels safe. So you actually know the difference.

[Michelle Obama]

And we'll talk more about this when we get into our favorite show.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Oh, I love when you guys say that.

[Michelle Obama]

Truly, truly forever we are talking about. But we're going to talk more about that.

[Craig Robinson]

And before we dig into the show, I want to know, what was your relationship with your older brother like?

[Mara Brock Akil]

Oh, my goodness. Shout out to my brother. I lost him a few years ago.

[Michelle Obama]

Thank you.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Thank you. We Had a very passionate sibling relationship. We talked a lot. We argued a lot.

[Craig Robinson]

And what's the age difference?

[Mara Brock Akil]

He's three years older. Okay, he's three years older.

[Craig Robinson]

Similar.

[Mara Brock Akil]

You know, I want to say this, too, because I really believe it. Our relationship is still thriving and growing. I feel his energy around me all the time. We have an angel number that lets me know that he's nearby. And funny times, I will ask him, yo, where are you? Because I need you right now. And one of the things that we often talked about, he really wanted to be. He was the only sort of. He was the only man in our family for a very long time in a family full of women. And he felt such a responsibility to being the man and making it and financially successful. And I think about him a lot in his, you know, just compassion for what he was going through. And he didn't need to put that pressure on himself. You know, I think about that sometimes, but now I experience. I feel his COO presence on me, that I was like, come on, let's go. Help me build. Help me. I know. I hope I don't sound. You know, I'm not gonna own that. I know I don't sound weird. I really believe in the spiritual connection still. He's not in body anymore, but he is in spirit with me. But our. We. He was my big brother, you know, even if we argued, you couldn't argue with me, though. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying?

[Michelle Obama]

Sounds familiar. Yeah.

[Mara Brock Akil]

You couldn't argue with me. You know, back up, you. It's like, that's my. You know, that's my sister. It was funny because we went. There was. We had one overlap in school together, and he let me have. Oh, I have another funny story. He let me have my space, you know, kind of vibes. But I always loved when I passed him in the hallway, he. I always wondered, is he gonna talk to me? Cause he's a senior and I'm a freshman. And he always. He always said, hello, how you doing? Everything good? And he kind of had this formality to him that I really loved.

[Michelle Obama]

I'm good and isn't there. I never tell Craig this to my face, but when you have a big brother that you adore, there is a certain energy, you know? Like, I would just get excited knowing he was in the same space, Safe, even though. Safe. Yeah. Even though I was trying not to be the little sister. Because we were raised not to be up under each other, my mother and father wanted to make sure that he didn't feel like he had to protect me.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Right.

[Michelle Obama]

Because he, like, know you, your brother is a worrier. He was the one that took on just naturally a lot of stuff. And so my mom was like, your little sister is fine. Don't worry about her. So I tried to give him his.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Space so he could have a little life, too. Not having to feel like when I'm.

[Michelle Obama]

Around, it's like, how's she doing? Is everything okay?

[Craig Robinson]

But I did it anyway, you know, it's just who I was. And she was just so cute, and I didn't want anything to happen to her.

[Mara Brock Akil]

But, you know, I found that that's really interesting too, because the birth order is beautifully. If we believe in God's majesty and the dynamic nature of our lives, your being born the big brother is a part of the dynamic that is needed. Taking that on, that when you came into the world, you were loved not by just two people, but by three people. You know what I'm saying? And a very. And I think that's a beautiful way to think about siblings. This is part of your role. And it's funny, with our two boys, you know, I often also let Nasir know. Yasine is our oldest and Nasir is our youngest, and Nasir is a. They're both. You're a great little brother, and you're a great big brother in your dynamic. I always. And so I just feel like that's also unique in that part of that responsibility, you know. But to your point, not to overdo it, but that's. You said that's just who you are. The sibling relationship is one of the most special relationships. And I tell them that, you know, we're going to be out of here and you guys are going to. You guys are going to be left in it together. So how are you going to move together? How are you going to support each other? These are the times in which those. Those bonds need to anchor in. And here's the other thing, too. When I think about love, what really is love? What is it? And I feel like it's the witnessing of another through the good, the bad, the mundane, the in between, and who gets the VIP court side, all the special VIP bracelets in your life. And that's a privilege, you know what I'm saying? Think how much we want to be in the party. Well, you want to be in someone's life like that. Well, a sibling has it from all of your dreams and memories are packed into each other. And for someone to sort of. And to Lose that bond over time is just. It would be unfortunate.

[Craig Robinson]

Boy, this has been a terrific trip to Martha's Vineyard.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, it's been so nice having you and young Aaron with us. We've had such a ball having you here.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah, it's been really nice. And look, we topped it off with a party at the end of the visit. Wasn't that nice?

[Michelle Obama]

I know a good jam with a dj. I heard you were doing a little electric slide.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah, the old man. Electric slide.

[Michelle Obama]

So just from here, sort of more slide than electric.

[Craig Robinson]

More slide than electric.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. But check this out. You know I'm an Airbnb guy now. Right. Well, you remember the photographer who was there?

[Michelle Obama]

Uh huh. Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

Got him on Airbnb.

[Michelle Obama]

No way.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Wait, wait.

[Michelle Obama]

What do you mean you or order? But he was a professional photographer.

[Craig Robinson]

A professional photographer. You can order services through Airbnb including.

[Michelle Obama]

He's part of this new Airbnb extra amenities. What do they call the program?

[Craig Robinson]

Airbnb Services.

[Michelle Obama]

Airbnb services.

[Craig Robinson]

And you can order a chef, you can order all kinds of stuff. I was like, let's order a photographer so we don't have to worry about taking pictures. He took all the pictures and will send them to us on a.

[Michelle Obama]

You know. Now that's a great idea. Because if I am so horrible at even thinking about taking pictures, and while you've got a great phone and everybody's good at that, it's so nice to have somebody that follows you around. Like we did in the White House. We had a White House photographer.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Right, right.

[Michelle Obama]

So it's sort of like Airbnb services lets you have your White House photographer that can follow you around and just get all these great candid shots. That is so cool.

[Craig Robinson]

And it was very similar to being at a wedding where you don't even know he's there. But you're gonna have this whole album of pictures.

[Michelle Obama]

That's so great. This generation would love that. That is a phenomenal amenity. I can't wait to see the pictures.

[Craig Robinson]

I'm just a little worried he might have caught me doing the non electric slide, so.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, if he's any good, he definitely caught that.

[Craig Robinson]

So we want our listeners to definitely check out Airbnb services on the Airbnb app or website you'll love.

[Michelle Obama]

Sounds like you and your brother, like Craig and I, we weren't competing with each other. That I know that. I was his biggest cheerleader. Still am. And I know. I try to. I've tried in my parenting of Malia and Sasha to make sure that they never felt like they were competing with each other.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I think you've done a great job because I've been able to witness your children outside in the world. And they feel like friends.

[Michelle Obama]

They have become friends. Individuals.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Not even locked as we're sisters, holding hands, moving down, but they feel like friends respecting each other.

[Michelle Obama]

Well. And if you talk about the lives that they've lived in such a short time, you know, they are the only two people who really relate to the unique blend of crazy that was their life growing up together. And I think that that's helped. But I've also tried to make sure that they appreciate their individuality.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

And that we see it. Yes. Like, it's not like, be like your big sister or look at your little sister. Like, we. I made it a point not to talk about grades at the dinner table just because, you know, it's like, let's talk about school.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

But when we talk about grades or scores, you know, I was always sensitive. What if.

[Mara Brock Akil]

What if the other one's not.

[Michelle Obama]

What if the other one's not doing great? And we are rewarding and cheering an A when the other one might be getting a C. And that's, you know. And then you set up, you know.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Competition, some kind of measure.

[Michelle Obama]

Measure unintentionally. I know Craig and I didn't have that. And some of that, I think, is because we were opposite gender. But I feel like that's something that, you know, a lot of parents, you know, they think that, you know, for the big one, be like your big.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Well, it's interesting you say that. Cause I remember my brother was really good. And grades, we didn't talk about that, but I knew he was good. So there was this, I think, healthy competition around that. I liked when he's talking about his A's, I'm like, okay, well, look at mine. So I remember that feeling. But that's an interesting intentional idea that you're saying that you didn't bring to the table. I wanna mention one that you did, that you offered to us as a nation. And I believe probably maybe the world is the rose and the thorn.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mara Brock Akil]

We use that a lot. We did use that a lot. And one of the things, how it's morphed for me is I'll ask Nasir now who's still at the dinner table. Yasin is in college. He's at nyu. But I'll ask. When did you laugh? Today. And what did you laugh about? And that has gotten a lot of results. That's a Good question. Yeah, it was a good one. And then I kind of get some insight into his friends and what they're laughing about, what they're talking about. I think storytelling is. Even if it's like little snippets, those are the things that I find that I like most at the dinner table that I think allows for relationship to blossom in real time, even amongst. You know, we don't just caught up and just. We just eat together. Right?

[Michelle Obama]

That's right.

[Mara Brock Akil]

What are we talking about while we eat together? A lot of debate is happening at the. You know, I think even for young men, for them to be able to express their opinion clearly, I mean, children in general, but for us, express themselves, but then also be able to witness your children and how they are able to get their opinion across and be able to sort of watch them before they launch out into the world. Yes, yes. So.

[Craig Robinson]

And I will share with you what our family always did. It was really interesting. When we had family gatherings, it was never kids in the other room.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Right.

[Craig Robinson]

Our family always allowed us to be in the room and hear the adult conversations. And when you were ready, you could chime in. Now it couldn't be any mess, and it had to be well thought out and serious or you would be pummeled with ridicule, but in a way that would keep you wanting to come back. And I always thought that helped my ability to navigate communication in the world was exactly what you said. I had a safe place to practice.

[Mara Brock Akil]

It's like a sport. It's like a sport.

[Craig Robinson]

I got to practice in the comfort of our own home. And then when we both were old enough to sort of give back, you know, give as good as we got. That's when she passed me up because she got really good at arguing and debate.

[Michelle Obama]

I think one of the things you point out, Craig, is the practice. And as parents, as parents raising kids, kids of color, I think we underestimate the importance of setting our kids up for practicing their voice and their emotions.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I think sometimes I have doubled down. I'm like, okay, well, how'd that make you feel, Mom?

[Michelle Obama]

It's like, I don't feel anything right now. I feel annoyed.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I feel annoyed.

[Craig Robinson]

Okay, great. Boys are different from girls. They'll tell you how they feel when they're 30. They will. They will eventually.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. But there's still the practice of. I think you tap into that sooner because you were also encouraged just to talk.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah, I'm being a little facetious there. I'm making the point that Girls just are more advanced. We have one girl and three boys. So she's ahead of all. She was ahead of all of them emotionally when she was.

[Michelle Obama]

See, I.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Okay, I want to get into this. I actually think there's a lot of emotional intelligence in boys.

[Craig Robinson]

Yes, there is.

[Mara Brock Akil]

But they hold it in their bodies.

[Craig Robinson]

Right.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I'm just sort of witnessing it. And when they're ready.

[Michelle Obama]

Actually, when you say you're witnessing it, what are you saying?

[Mara Brock Akil]

Well, boys hold a lot in. And I know. I think that's a societal idea as well put upon boys that I don't think that we allow for. For places for them to emote. But I think it is expressed in their physical movement. And so in that I find the days that sort of my sons have exerted themselves in the things that they want to do, the car ride or the tuck in at bed is where there's a lot of conversation.

[Craig Robinson]

The best discussions I've had with my. The three boys have been rearview mirror discussions. When they're in the backseat and I can look to just see what they're doing, but I'm not looking directly at them. And it made me think about forever because we watched forever with our two younger boys. Like, our oldest son is 33.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Okay. He's got his own Netflix account.

[Craig Robinson]

29. Finally has his own Netflix account. I don't think our daughter does yet. She's 29. But he's got his. But we watched.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Do we need those numbers?

[Craig Robinson]

And now that. When I knew you were coming on, because when I'm watching this whole thing and I didn't know your background then, now when we were doing the research for this, you had two sons. I wanted to know how did they influence that whole storytelling? And I'm asking for myself, but I'm asking for my kids. Because after you talk, I'll share with you.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I want to know because I really want to know.

[Craig Robinson]

Yes.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Well, a lot of my storytelling ethos is I tell the truth through fiction. And so a lot of times my heart locks in on something or I'm locked in on something in real time. As a mother, I'm locked in on my boys at a time where I was concerned about just their rite of passage, their coming of age, what are they going to get. Ms. And you're trying to fill in the gaps, right? I had a place to pour all these feelings I was having about my parenting, about my sons. What I'm witnessing into this coming of age story about firsts, which is one of the biggest things I was concerned about. Yes, they're getting a great education in the private white institutions, but at what cost? And the social things were really starting to creep up. And I was concerned that he was not my eldest son who is pioneering the family in a lot of ways. I didn't feel as though he was getting some of the social experiences I think children need while they're in the home, while they're in this stage of life.

[Michelle Obama]

What was he missing and why?

[Mara Brock Akil]

Well, you know, I think he deserved to be felt crushed on and mutually felt. I felt like there was.

[Craig Robinson]

A lot.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Of his classmates who, you know, you do the catch ups with the moms, right? Oh, they're on their third girlfriend. I'm like, oh, wow, I haven't had that. I haven't had that experience.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, there are a lot of young black people that they get into college and they've never had a boyfriend or girlfriend.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I don't think that's out there.

[Michelle Obama]

I totally agree with you.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I don't think a lot of that.

[Michelle Obama]

Comes from being in all white environments as black kids.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Not to be felt like someone that likes you, even if it's for a week.

[Michelle Obama]

Yes.

[Mara Brock Akil]

There's no memory of a mutual desire and how to negotiate those feelings, those conversations, those opportunities maybe to come to mom or dad for advice, or aunt and uncle or village. There's no place for them to even practice those practices that we're talking about.

[Michelle Obama]

See, I always thought that black boys had it easier. This is my ignorance because I grew up with daughters.

[Mara Brock Akil]

You know, I'm not in every household. But when I look at it from. I think there's a time in which black bo they're really cute from kindergarten to fourth grade. And actually Dr. Juanza Konchufu has a book about the conspiracy to destroy black boys. And it's typically society starts to pull away from them. Imagine being so cute and then suddenly so threatening.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Mara Brock Akil]

So then you start to see the. And we're trying to give them language around this. And you're watching this so there can be a separation where now you are a threat. And as your body gets bigger, your physical self gets bigger. All the things that we're still trying to work on in our country, that race, whether it's conscious or unconscious, it is starting to form about who's gonna kiss those ideas. If you're crushing on someone, another step is a kiss. And we understand those ideas that are still embedded in our country. And I don't think. And again, I'm not saying that people are leading with this, but I am Saying that he's handsome, he's dynamic.

[Michelle Obama]

Pictures of your sons, they are gorgeous.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah, it's like, gorgeous young man, where are the flood of where are the flood? And again, when you sort of do the math, is it because he's the only black boy in the class? And then as a parent, I'll be honest, my guilt sort of comes up about it. Selim and I talk about it all the time and we check in and all the time. Let's go back to the vineyard. Hey, we need to get to the vineyard just so he can see. Maybe one little flirtation on Circuit Avenue help us get through the rest of the year.

[Michelle Obama]

Just hold on.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Just hold on, babe. Just hold on. We're gonna get two weeks, three weeks out of this.

[Michelle Obama]

But, Mar, you make a good point about, you know, and Craig. I'd love to hear how you think about this as being one of those cute little boys that grew into maybe a threatening young man.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Even though overnight.

[Michelle Obama]

Overnight, when we know that overnight they don't change internally. Oh, they're wobbly, they become. I call them baby giraffes.

[Mara Brock Akil]

They really are. Oh my God, that's a great term.

[Michelle Obama]

And I call him baby on a stick, you know? Cause it's like the same little baby face on top of this big huge man body.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Six feet plus.

[Michelle Obama]

And just the body grew. But they're still the same cute little boy in themselves. But they're walking out.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And then I'm gonna add, before they add the mask of what they think black masculinity is. So even, like when you're trying to take a picture, everybody's happy. And then everybody mean mugging in the shot. You're like, guys, I know. Guys, guys.

[Michelle Obama]

It's like, what are we doing? Why can't we smile?

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

What is this?

[Mara Brock Akil]

And making room for that. Because they're trying to protect themselves. And again, trying to protect, I think, what we keep overlooking and missing and not built to hold for them.

[Craig Robinson]

This episode is brought to you by our friends at Rivian and their fully electric full size SUVs and pickups that are designed for all of life's adventures. I have really enjoyed driving around in the R1s that Rivian outfitted our family with. I can't believe there's a full size, all electric SUV that actually fits someone as tall and long as I am. You know, we've done a lot of travel in the Midwest this summer. And a couple of the features that I like are, number one, they're easy to find charging stations. The Rivian app helps you with that. And here's something that's really cool. If you're not in your vehicle, there are cameras that record any movement around your car. What's also really exciting is that Rivian just launched its all new R1S quad. It's Rivian's fastest, most capable vehicle yet. Four motors, one per wheel for precision and performance on any terrain. Engineered for sharp corners, wild trails and maximum adventure. From distinctive accents and badging to exclusive new wheels, Quad is built to stand out wherever it takes you. So when you get a chance, go check out the all new R1S quad and all of Rivian's amazing vehicles [e-mail] this episode of Imo is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, who help people move forward and live fully Owning a home can be one of the most powerful ways to build financial security, but for many, especially first generation buyers, it can feel out of reach. That's why I appreciate what Progressive is doing. In 2024, they contributed over $7 million to help individuals and families break the cycle of renting by providing support, offering educational resources, and developing tools to build long term financial stability through home ownership. Their work goes beyond just insurance. They're opening doors through their newly created Up Payment program. Progressive is helping first generation home buyers move closer to the dream of home ownership by offering eligible applicants a chance to receive a down payment assistance grant. You know, owning a home for me made me feel grounded and also set me up for the future. And as a coach, when your life is dependent on wins and losses, it's really important to have the comfort of a really nice home to come home to, especially for your family. Homeownership is one of the biggest investments you'll ever make, and Progressive wants to help more people take that life changing step. Learn more [e-mail] OpenThe House this episode of Imo is brought to you in part by Acorns. Back when I was coaching basketball, I saw firsthand how powerful consistency can be. With Acorns, it's the same play, show up, stay steady, and let time do the rest. Acorns is a financial wellness app that makes it easy to start saving and investing for your future. You don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you get started with the spare money you've got right now. Even if all you've got is spare change, you don't need to be an expert. Acorns recommends a diversified portfolio that can help you weather all the market's ups and downs. You just need to stick with it and Acorns makes that easy. Acorns automatically invest your money, giving it a chance to grow with time. This reminds me of the consistent steps it took for me to go from a player into the business world and back into coaching. Sign up now and join over 14 million all time customers who have already saved and invested over $25 billion with Acorns. Plus Acorns will boost your new account with a $20 bonus investment offer only [e-mail] imo that's acorns.com imo to get your $20 bonus investment today from Acorns. Mighty Oaks do grow. Investing doesn't have to be complicated. Acorns makes it easy to invest for your future, plan for tomorrow and spend smarter today. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns Investing involves risk Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor view important [e-mail] IMO well, I will say for me growing up, if you I know you remember this, but you wouldn't know this. I went to an all boys high school.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Oh, how was that?

[Craig Robinson]

And it was talk about storytelling. I could tell a bunch of stories about that, but took the pressure off of having to perform every day in order to attract girls. That's what in looking back at the time, I didn't realize this. At the time I was like, geez, this is a lot of dudes around here. And it was a Catholic school, so it was very rigid. So any social reaction, any social interactions were were intentionally put upon us with dances with the girls school.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Right, right, right, right.

[Craig Robinson]

So inevitably there was enough people there where you could actually go ask somebody to dance. If you wanted to ask a black girl to dance, you could. If you wanted to ask a white girl to dance, it was like the proportions were about the same and so I didn't feel like I was missing out on anything.

[Michelle Obama]

But did you feel like a threat as you grew? Could you feel society change?

[Craig Robinson]

Its I did not feel reaction to you did not feel that. And I don't know when I started to I didn't really feel like I was a threat until I had gone away to college and then come back because I was a little bit more able to perceive slights toward me where I don't think I could. Eventually you were just oblivious to I was either oblivious or I didn't run into it because I was an athlete.

[Mara Brock Akil]

To your point about well yeah, there is a privilege.

[Craig Robinson]

There's a privilege that comes with being an athlete and not Even a good athlete, all you have to be is on the team and people treated you differently. And my Catholic school was mostly white, so there were opera and there was the odd slight. You know, the one teacher who thought, okay, you shouldn't apply to Princeton cause you won't get in that kind of thing. But we were used to that.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Seems like there's a lot of those in the counseling department.

[Craig Robinson]

We were used to that. But when I really think back on feeling like I. I didn't feel like I was a threat until I started driving. Around the first time I felt like I was a threat when I got pulled over just for driving a car while black. Yeah, driving while black. But I was prepared for that. Right? I was prepared for it. It doesn't make it right, but I was prepared for it. And now when I think about my sons and I think about. I'm listening to you talk to your sons and. And we're watching Forever. And, you know, this was when they were 14 and 12. Now they're 15 and 13. So they were young. And thanks to Malia, because we were no R rated stuff until you get.

[Mara Brock Akil]

To 16, you need a big cousin.

[Craig Robinson]

To put the pressure on.

[Mara Brock Akil]

She ripped that.

[Craig Robinson]

She ripped that band aid off. And Kelly and I were like, ooh. So we watched it and there were some. As you know there was. And we were like. Like, we're shaking more than the boys were.

[Mara Brock Akil]

But it forces communication.

[Michelle Obama]

Absolutely.

[Craig Robinson]

Good discussion about these things.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yes.

[Craig Robinson]

Thank you for that.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And I think that's what I would hope that Forever can do. So when I hear about families watching it together, I feel like it's just that opportunity not only to talk about sexual health, but talk about their emotional health to themselves, to their friend group and to their. Their significant other and to their household and ultimately to their future. Because that's what we're really trying to protect, is that, yes, you should go through this rite of passage, but how do you get through it in a healthy way of sound mind and body?

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And that's the goal.

[Michelle Obama]

Right.

[Craig Robinson]

That's what it did for us.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And it is uncomfortable to think about this for any child. But it's gonna happen eventually. And I think the privilege and the joy is it to happen while they're under our roof, that we can witness them.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

So agree.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And not that we want our children to fall, but if. But if they're gonna fall, let them.

[Michelle Obama]

Fall and come home.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And come home, let them fall right there so they can see themselves.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, then, Mar, this is what you're Saying about black kids, you want them to have enough social experience. And I'm talking to my bro, you know, because there's a balance of. You worry about them being out and being in the wrong house, and the parents aren't this and they aren't that, you know, but that's coming, you know, they're gonna.

[Mara Brock Akil]

With or without you.

[Michelle Obama]

In high school, sophomore, two, three years. It's going to happen.

[Craig Robinson]

When we're having our discussions during and after the show, I ask the boys, so what is the thing that comes to your mind when you're watching this? Oh, and you know what they said we compare your parenting to their parenting.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Wow.

[Craig Robinson]

Isn't that so fun?

[Mara Brock Akil]

And so who are you?

[Craig Robinson]

Well, of course, I'm the dad. That's what I want. But I'm not as cool as you. I'm not that cool. But they were really focused in on comparing the show's parenting style to our parenting style. Wow. And in the middle, we'd be watching it, and it was like, oh, yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Because the truth is that they'd be.

[Craig Robinson]

Like, mom would never do that. Or, oh, that's exactly what mom would do.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

Or, dad, you'd never let us do this.

[Michelle Obama]

But that's why I love the show, because it helps to check parents. Because we are so afraid.

[Mara Brock Akil]

We are so afraid.

[Michelle Obama]

So many parents out of deep love.

[Mara Brock Akil]

It's deep love.

[Michelle Obama]

You don't want.

[Mara Brock Akil]

You don't want your baby.

[Michelle Obama]

I mean, the thought. That's why we're as happy as our least happy child. That's saying every parent knows it, every parent feels it. But sometimes we don't realize that we parent out of our fears.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Of course.

[Michelle Obama]

We parent out of our desire not to feel the hurt. And we couch it in terms of. I'm doing it for them.

[Craig Robinson]

Yes. I mean, there was a whole lot of stuff going on in the Robinson household, so it was really cathartic for our family.

[Mara Brock Akil]

That's what I'm hearing. That there's a big sigh, a big deep breath, another regroup. Okay, everybody, let's figure this out on all sides.

[Michelle Obama]

And they also need to see our flaws.

[Mara Brock Akil]

It is so.

[Michelle Obama]

It is so helpful for them. I mean, I think one of the biggest reliefs was when, by the, you know, I thought my parents were perfect because, you know, and not perfect in some ridiculous way. I just, you know, I couldn't see their flaws. But there comes a point, you know, and I was in college, and I'd gone off and studied sociology and psychology, and then I could bring all those theories Back and, you know, pick apart my parents.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yes, Right.

[Michelle Obama]

But that was sort of a necessary thing to realize. Oh, my father's relationship to his Ms. Is not healthy. You know, the notion that he. We would applaud the fact that our father just got up and he went to work and he never sacrificed for anybody and he never took a day off. This is a man who had Ms. Oh, my God. And as I got older, I was like, why aren't, why aren't we looking at therapies?

[Mara Brock Akil]

Right.

[Michelle Obama]

Why isn't he going to the doctor more? Why are we bragging about the fact.

[Mara Brock Akil]

That he never stops?

[Michelle Obama]

Never stops when Ms. Is a disease that is so debilitating that there's sometimes he needs to stop? What is it about him? What is it about my mother, you know, where we've created this heroic paradigm that is not healthy at all.

[Mara Brock Akil]

That's the beauty of progress. Sometimes it takes. Don't like sometimes how long it can take because of the different constraints on us. But I think as a storyteller, sometimes I have to keep going back to the origin of things. And you realize, oh, that's why he didn't stop. He didn't stop because stopping meant something different to us a few generations ago. You too may not be here if other generations didn't stop.

[Michelle Obama]

But it's no food on the table.

[Mara Brock Akil]

But at some point to your point, where are we at the tipping point where it's going to kill us in other ways if we don't think about how we take care of ourselves and as we fight continuously through for our humanity. And it comes with sometimes the ability to rest and reflect, to look at the patterns, to look at, to examine. I'm going to apply this knowledge I have at some of the best institutions we have in our country, and I'm going to take it back to my family. That's what I would love that we could do. And that excites me in a lot of ways. Even though there's a lot of work still to be done. Right.

[Craig Robinson]

This episode of Imo is brought to you in part by Understood.org if you're a parent of a child with ADHD, dyslexia, or any learning difference, and especially if you're navigating special education as a parent of color, you know, it can feel like a maze. There's a podcast from Understood.org called Opportunity Gap that's here to help. It's hosted by Julian Saavedra, and in every episode, he talks with special ed teachers, child psychologists and other experts. They Break down things like how to navigate the IEP process, what accommodations your child is entitled to, and how to build a strong relationship with your child's teachers. You know, I checked out the Opportunity Gap myself, and what stood out to me was how practical and empowering it is. It's a resource that really meets families where they are. It also provides tools to help families build confidence in navigating the challenges of children who learn differently. To listen, just search Opportunity Gap in your podcast app. That's Opportunity Gap. Sometimes you just need a little boost. Nothing wild, just something to help you stay steady through the day. Between shuttling the kids to sports, recording the podcast, and even traveling out here to D.C. for recordings, I like having something easy to keep my energy up. That's why I go with, well, with all energy. It keeps me feeling good and energized while I'm on the go. Mmm. Wow, that's good. It's lightly sparkling, has natural caffeine from tea with only 45 calories. Made with real fruit and vegetable juices. No artificial colors, no artificial flavors. Just good stuff for some good energy. And you know what I really like, well with all is black owned. And they give 20% of their profits to support black, brown and underserved communities. That means a lot to me. Three great flavors, super easy to grab on Amazon. And if you use the code IMO PODS, 10 on Amazon, you'll get 10% off.

[Michelle Obama]

I really want you to talk a bit about your staying power in this industry. You know, you were one of the youngest showrunners. Black showrunners.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

I mean, you have put out hit after hit after hit. And in a business where it doesn't happen, you got a season two on Netflix.

[Mara Brock Akil]

My love for it, I accepting that I accepting my purpose in my life, I think is my staying power. And actually, as much as I want to make hit after hit after hit, I really enjoy making. I love the stories of us. I just see so many, so many opportunities that were missing at the time that I came in the industry. It felt like, guys, there's so many stories I did have to develop. How do I sell those, which can be very challenging at times.

[Michelle Obama]

Can you talk more about that?

[Mara Brock Akil]

Well, it's interesting. Honestly. It's akin to how black people have succeeded in America throughout. Is that oftentimes America will ask of us to come in when things are in chaos, are in turmoil.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, I feel that.

[Mara Brock Akil]

You know a little something about that. Think about that. Think about that moment when we don't know what to do. Then now maybe there could be a first black president. So when Girlfriend came about upn, the network was in trouble. Nobody would touch that network. And I took all the legacy. I treated it as a value and found other people who also saw this opportunity as valuable and led from that place. So typically, if you go back in the pattern of my career, I have made leaps when the industry was changing in a way that felt like a little bit of the sky is falling kind of vibes. So that was one way. And the third part that's very important to me is job creation. I know that if I'm able to take this idea that's floating out here in my heart and I can land it on the page and it's. It becomes a lighthouse for other talent to come and join me. I also know that it's feeding families and that my staying power is not just about my own need to tell stories.

[Michelle Obama]

Ellen, you're doing this in real time, not just from your programs, but you are mentoring the next generation of creatives. Can you talk a bit about that?

[Mara Brock Akil]

Thank you for. Oh, thank you. It's so. But you know, I have produced over 400 episodes of television. And with that, it has inspired a lot of young people who typically are. Their families are saying, please go to be a doctor, go be a banker, go be a lawyer again.

[Michelle Obama]

Because it feels safe for us, because.

[Mara Brock Akil]

It feels safe as parents. But we have inspired them to want to be storytellers, which I personally believe is the most valuable asset we as humans have is our story. The challenge is that the industry changing and it looked like a gold rush yesterday. It doesn't feel like that today. But there's a long line of people who want to tell. We're now inspired to tell their story. And I can't pretend I don't see it. And so the way I thought is that I would have a writer's colony and I built a res. It's been four years. It's a place to write, it's a place to belong and a place to find your voice. What we don't need, we don't need another Mara. We need what there's something in you that you and God want to get out as sort of like a co creation idea. You need to get that out. But where are you going to get your foothold and even signal to family who's helping to. Typically, all artists, they're supported by someone and typically it's the family. So the first venture capitalists are family. You know, family and friends. A family and friends round Right, that's right. That's right. And so the signal to even the writer themselves and the family that's supporting them, what could be created so that it feels like they can actually get into this institute, into this industry and thrive. And the reason why you do need a community of peers, Mama and daddy and auntie and grandma and uncle, they're gonna love your script. But you need.

[Michelle Obama]

I know, right?

[Craig Robinson]

Object. You need objectivity.

[Michelle Obama]

You need baby.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I mean, first of all, people are just blown away that you can write 100 pages of anything. And I think the communication around, the expectations from family, if you just sort of meet it with real conversations, hey, this is what I'm doing. This is what I understand the industry is. This is my strategy. Literally, I would mask my life so that I protected the ability for me to write.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, well, this might be a good time to.

[Craig Robinson]

Oh, look who's.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[Craig Robinson]

No, go ahead. No, no, do that. No, go ahead.

[Michelle Obama]

For a listener question, yes, it's perfect. It kind of ties into a lot of what we're talking about, and it's our.

[Craig Robinson]

It's IMO's attempt to be sort of communal, you know, so we get a question from our listeners.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Okay.

[Craig Robinson]

And this question is from Julia, who happens to be from Los Angeles.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Okay.

[Nora McInerney]

Hi, Michelle and Craig. My name is Julia. I'm the daughter of immigrants, went to Princeton on scholarship, where I felt like an outsider, and then took a job in finance, which I hated, before pivoting to teaching, which I still do now. I know both of you went to Princeton and then took jobs in lucrative fields like law and finance before pivoting to less lucrative, but more fulfilling careers. People of color and immigrant kids often feel extraordinary pressure to go to the best schools and get the best, highest paid jobs because of the sacrifices and suffering of their parents, even if these schools and jobs are not the best fit. My parents, for example, worked at a fast food restaurant that burned during the LA Uprising. I'm now the parent of teenagers, and I wholeheartedly believe they do not need to go to an Ivy League school or have a highly paid job in medicine, law, or finance in order to be happy, quote, successful human beings. But I also know I have so much more privilege than my parents ever did and that my kids don't need these fancy degrees and jobs in the way I felt I did. What advice do you have for these kids and also for their parents?

[Mara Brock Akil]

Oh, my goodness.

[Michelle Obama]

This is the perfect question. And we started talking about this, so I didn't want to get Too far.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Into it just because it kind of just let it. Right. I would think first is acknowledge that the awareness is beautiful. She already knows. Julia already knows that it's different, I think. And I think. I know I go to therapy a lot, but. But she might need to sort of work on that guilt. Meaning they're still embedded in the question, am I doing something? Did I do something right? And by nature of her the privilege for her to pivot her parents applaud them that they got a child to Princeton through that experience into a career and have the presence of mind that this is not for me. That is the progress. That is the victory. That is it. And if there's can be made peace. I don't know. Not knowing the full dynamic. But I hear a little bit and maybe I. Of guilt perhaps. And by letting that go will free up parents who have journeyed through something themselves to then not bring that guilt into the parenting of the next generation. So the awareness is a beautiful step and maybe that next step would be there. But it sounds like Julia's doing a great job of awareness and knowing that she needs to parent different. I think communication, which is hard sometimes. And it's interesting we talked about that from the beginning. That what we as parents are pouring into our kids to allow them. I think you were talking about even at the table when you were. What can you offer back to the community when you were ready to your debate skills and your communication skills. Kids being back at that dinner table, having. Having the support to add new ideas to the family, to grow the family. Our children have a lot of good ideas. And likely in Julia Princeton her. Even though she felt like an outsider, she probably was a good witness to a lot of good information that she could bring back to her family, to herself and thus to her family, her growing family. But the kids do have things to offer and I think we need to make room for them. They know themselves, especially when they are raised. I think this whatever the dynamic of the family and they can help lead that new conversation. I'll tell you one. When I first was in Northwestern, I'm in LA making a little bit of money that I was making. But my grandmother kept sending me articles about teaching in LAUSD because we had la, my family had LAUSD on Locked. That's the Los Angeles United School District. And at first it broke my heart. And I'm like, do they understand what I'm trying to do? What I'm trying to do? I'm out here trying to do the thing and then I Thought, no, they don't. And not only do they not understand it, Mara, you haven't fully let them know while you're still trying to figure it out. But this has hit me like a ton of bricks. They can't help you. There's no phone call they can make to say, look out for my baby.

[Michelle Obama]

Right. You're going down.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Can they get an interview? Can they just. Can somebody read the script?

[Michelle Obama]

Yes, sir.

[Mara Brock Akil]

There's nobody to call.

[Michelle Obama]

So babies out in the desert.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yes. There's no community we can put around, no extra eyes on them. And then for me, what's my accountability as a child to help relieve some of that burden? Because. And then the check in. This is what I'm doing. This is what I'm at. Or even I gave myself two years. At the end of those two years, I sat down with Gina Prince bythewood. Shout out to my friend, you know, woman king, old guard, all those. But we were. We were. This is after South Central. There was an unemployment phase before Moesha in my. In my Gap. And I said, I. And so I tasted it, right? I tasted it and I didn't feel like I was going to be able to keep going. And I thought, well, teach for America I can maybe go to. I wasn't going to teach. I was like, you know what? If I'm going to teach, I'm going to teach out in another country. At least I'll get some travel out of this. And she said, stay an extra month. I later found out she only said that cause she didn't know what else to say. And that's when Ralph Farquhar called me and said, hey, Mara, I got this show called Moesha. And so the timing of life too, and the community, I was also able in that communication. Ralph only knew that because I had gone to his office when I had $50 in my pocket and I was trying to be his assistant just to stay in. And he looked, he goes, mari, you're not an assistant, you're a writer. Great compliment. Does not help my math problem.

[Michelle Obama]

I gotta eat.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I gotta eat. So I feel communicating also what your needs are in your community, being vulnerable enough to say, I have $50 in my pocket. I don't know what else to do. And somebody else offering something, whether it's not just encouragement or a meal or something to keep us going, that matters.

[Craig Robinson]

Who'S around us, that's so perfect. And I'm just gonna try and sum it all up. But you got another point.

[Michelle Obama]

I have one other thing that I wanna Say is just like you learned with your son, that the next generation has a vision and a voice. I think it's incumbent upon our generation of parents to realize that we. We don't know their future.

[Mara Brock Akil]

We don't.

[Michelle Obama]

So we can't always have a strong opinion because the world will be very different for them, for our kids today. Especially for your kids who are younger and they're living in it. Yes, they're the ones living through it. They're the ones who are out there in school surveying the land, understanding whatever industries they're in, and we're bystanders. So there's gotta be some. I wanna re. Emphasize the trust in the fact that you give your kids tools, you give them the best education that you can afford, which is not always a guarantee to anything. But like you said, you give them love. You give them unwavering support without criticism, and then at some point, you got to let them try out this new thing, this process.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And I think in parenting, too, sometimes if we get out of our own way, we can see them, and in seeing them, we can help them while they're in our daily care.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. I'm not gonna add anything other than sort of summing it up, because I love your math problem example, but I think what we don't do is we don't. We have our own math equation, and we impose it on our kids rather than teaching them how to create their own math problem. So when we look at our kids, we see this gigantic algebra problem, and they've got a arithmetic problem, and that's all they need to survive, is make their arithmetic work. We're looking at it as if they're in our orbit. So I would say to Julia, take into consideration this math problem. And your math problem isn't their math problem. Let them figure out what their math problem is, and then to your point, both of you, all's points, help them with their math problem.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yes.

[Craig Robinson]

And then the other thing that was big there for Julia is don't impose your fears on your kids. And we all do that.

[Michelle Obama]

Yes.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Oh, my gosh. That's why you need the good girlfriends and get it out in the. Get it out in your community. Don't take it off.

[Craig Robinson]

Have it in the chair of angst or the girlfriend's thing. Just have it. Talk about it, and then keep your mouth shut and wait for the kids to need help. Then help them. Don't try and help them before. So.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Well, I think it's a lot.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah, it's a lot.

[Michelle Obama]

But you Know the. The work that you do, Mara, you know, just to bring these stories to light and with humor.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Thank you.

[Michelle Obama]

With truth. Thank you. It really helps get the conversation going in so many ways. And that's why forever is such a success along with everything else you're doing.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Thank you.

[Michelle Obama]

I just want to know what's going on with girlfriends.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I love it that you asked to, you know.

[Craig Robinson]

You know, I wonder.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I said, are we gonna get through this without asking about girlfriends?

[Craig Robinson]

I thought I wanted to be William. I wanted to be William.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Oh, my God.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, you sort of are. You're kind of.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I named him after. That's my brother's name. I named him after my brother.

[Craig Robinson]

That was my dude back in the day. And I was like, man, he's.

[Mara Brock Akil]

You know, I put him there. Because back in the day we were talking about we need to find a good black man. And then some of my criticism of us, myself included, we were overlooking a lot of good brothers. And William spoke up for. Well, he was like, we. I'm him.

[Michelle Obama]

I'm sitting around, all y' all complaining.

[Craig Robinson]

I'm standing right here.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I'm right here. And you looking over because you think you gotta have a little edge. Little bad boy, little this, little that. Okay, I. Okay, so. Okay, great. But girlfriends, thank you for bringing. You know. You know, this is our 25th anniversary.

[Michelle Obama]

We know.

[Mara Brock Akil]

25Th anniversary. It is not. I keep my heart open, actually. Tracy, Persia, Jill, golden and Reggie, we've all we desire to do it. But what is important to me is that we be able to tell the story with the proper resources. There's a way we tell stories in our business. And it is time that we don't have to scratch and survive to tell this story. We have given 172 episodes, eight years, eight seasons of a lot of love and value. This story is four generations deep. Now. The 16 year olds think I'm a rock star. I'm like, oh my God, I love it. But it's been global, so this is a ripe, valuable story. And so my conversation with God is, I'm here, I'm ready to go. But it needs to be lined up with the right financial resources and support that it's going to treat it as a global success.

[Michelle Obama]

And we're talking about Girlfriends. The movie. The movie.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I only want to do a movie, to be honest with you. I think that I have a fresh pen for this. There's a story for the girlfriends. I think why Girlfriends was so successful. I was living that Life. I was 29 as Joan was 29, and those I was in the issues of the day. I think that's kind of my journalism aspect, my truth through fiction. Because I was living it, or at least in proximity with my friends, I was able to understand what we were going through in real time. And I would love a fresh pen for a new Girlfriends of tomorrow and in a series. But for Girlfriends, the movie, I feel the audience deserves the ending. Those characters deserve.

[Michelle Obama]

We deserve an ending.

[Mara Brock Akil]

The characters deserve. I agree. I'm with you.

[Michelle Obama]

And I'm with you.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I'm with you. So I. Yeah. So I'm. Yeah, so.

[Craig Robinson]

So. Make the check.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Somebody got a check.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Make the check.

[Michelle Obama]

And I love that you say that. Make the check. Right.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Make the check.

[Michelle Obama]

Don't come nickel and diamond. This is worthy. It has an audience you have.

[Mara Brock Akil]

It is not a favor.

[Michelle Obama]

It is not a favor.

[Mara Brock Akil]

It is real beautiful business. And I think. And I'm excited for the day. I know it's coming. I'm gonna let it show up. Oh, my God.

[Michelle Obama]

I've got to cry.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Oh, my God.

[Michelle Obama]

Sorry.

[Craig Robinson]

Let me.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

[Michelle Obama]

Let it show up.

[Mara Brock Akil]

So I'm now curious.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Mara Brock Akil]

How it's gonna show up. Oh, my gosh, you guys, I'm having a hot flash.

[Craig Robinson]

Okay.

[Michelle Obama]

All right.

[Craig Robinson]

That's the way to end the episode right there.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Okay.

[Michelle Obama]

Okay.

[Craig Robinson]

Okay.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Wow. I mean, look. Can you see that?

[Craig Robinson]

Yes, I feel. Em. That means it's coming.

[Mara Brock Akil]

It's coming.

[Michelle Obama]

And I think there's some prophecy here in this barn. Yes. I think maybe we're generating. I'm looking around at my.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Maybe my brother's here. I told you.

[Michelle Obama]

He's here. He's here.

[Mara Brock Akil]

You. Yeah, we just. Oh, my God.

[Michelle Obama]

He's like. This is.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I feel like my brother's here.

[Michelle Obama]

Some signs. Yeah. Well, we are excited. I personally am excited. This has been amazing.

[Mara Brock Akil]

This has been amazing for me.

[Michelle Obama]

It's been as amazing, if not more amazing than I thought. I don't know about you.

[Craig Robinson]

I am just Craig Robinson now. I'm starting to get goosebumps. No, this has been a real treat. Thank you so much for being with us. This.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Craig Robinson]

Thank you so much for everything you're doing, because it is uplifting. A whole lot of folks. You don't. You don't even know it.

[Michelle Obama]

Thank you, Mar.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Thank you so much.

[Michelle Obama]

Thank you.

[Craig Robinson]

Foreign.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Hi, Michelle and Craig.

[Nora McInerney]

It's Nora McInerney.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I'm the host of a podcast called. Thanks for asking. It's a call in show where I just let people talk about how they're really doing. And a lot of my listeners, myself included, are burned out recovering girl bosses. I personally took some major steps, steps back after eight to 10 years, who's counting of just non stop go. And as a result, my life is.

[Nora McInerney]

More manageable because I stopped doing things.

[Mara Brock Akil]

That were not paying me financially or emotionally. And yet, and yet, and yet I have a sense of, oh no, am I a loser. Whenever I see peers, colleagues, friends, enemies doing things that I know I could do, it's almost like I am addicted to stress. And I know a lot of people probably feel the same way. Can you please give us some advice and, or a pep talk? I'm begging you.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, thanks, Nora. It's Craig Robinson here and it's great to be on your show.

[Michelle Obama]

And, and it's Michelle Obama, his little sister.

[Craig Robinson]

She decided to join us too. I think I'll go first and I will just say, first and foremost, you're not a loser. So pep talk number one, you're not a loser. Some of the stress relievers that I have gone to, in a pinch, when I'm feeling like I am burnt out or I need some time away, my first go to would be exercise or something physical, whether that's walking or working out or taking my kids to do a workout with them. So sort of coaching them, that relieves my stress level.

[Michelle Obama]

And one of the things that I do is that I try to plan the things that are stress free for me, putting those kind of things on my schedule. Because, you know, Craig, you can talk about going for a walk or watching TV or getting a workout in, but if you're always working and you haven't planned it, you look up, your day is over and you have not scheduled time for yourself. So I've learned over the years that I have to put the things that give me joy, that give me a sense of release. I have to put that stuff on my calendar before I put work on my calendar. So if that's going to the gym, getting a workout in, if it's spending time with my family, if it's, you know, taking time to watch the do, do the Netflix and chill, it might be helpful for you, Nora, to schedule that. Like you schedule all the work that you're doing that keeps you so stressed, put yourself on your calendar first. Thanks again, Nora, for your great question.

[Craig Robinson]

You can hear Nora help her listeners with their dilemmas on her podcast. Thanks for asking. Available now wherever you get your podcasts.