Try Not to Laugh with Ayo Edebiri and Don Cheadle

Summary

Podcast Summary: IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson
Episode: "Try Not to Laugh" with Ayo Edebiri and Don Cheadle
Date: May 20, 2026
Host: Michelle Obama
Guests: Ayo Edebiri, Don Cheadle
Theme: The Power of Representation, Artistry, and Community in Theater (Especially Broadway’s "Proof")

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Episode Overview

This candid and lively episode, hosted by Michelle Obama (without her usual co-host Craig Robinson), dives into the Broadway revival of "Proof." The conversation features two of its stars, Ayo Edebiri and Don Cheadle, and explores their creative journeys, the impact and process of reimagining a classic play through the lens of Black actors, issues of legacy and mental health, and making the arts more accessible. The episode balances humor and warmth with serious reflections about art, family, community, and representation.

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Key Discussion Points & Highlights

1. Introductions & Chemistry on Set

Timestamp: 01:07–04:56

• Michelle introduces Don Cheadle and Ayo Edebiri, noting their impressive and award-winning careers.
• Quote: “Don’s sort of like, always been on my eternal list.” — Ayo Edebiri [05:05]
• The cast's rapport is clear; Don notes an instant paternal connection with Ayo when they started working together.
• The casting process for "Proof" is discussed—Don’s name was "the first one that we came up with" when considering the role.

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2. "Proof": Reimagining the Play & Themes

Timestamp: 07:27–10:30

• "Proof" is summarized as a family drama about legacy, truth, and brilliance at the intersection of genius and madness.
• New version features a Black family—Don and Ayo discuss the intentionality and conversations about shifting the play’s racial lens.
• Quote: “Once they decided that [Catherine would be Ayo], it sort of dictated who the family would be in some ways.” — Don Cheadle [09:43]
• The importance of representation in showing Black families as academics and geniuses, not just side stories or stereotypes, is emphasized.

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3. The Broadway Experience: Process, Debuts & Community

Timestamp: 12:00–14:58

• "Proof" marks Broadway debuts for both Don and Ayo.
• Don shares his lifelong love of theater and serendipitous casting stories.
• Ayo talks about the challenges of jumping directly from filming "The Bear" into rehearsals, reinforcing the intense physical and emotional demands of stage work.

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4. The Evolution of Acting Careers & Industry Dynamics

Timestamp: 20:31–25:14

• Discussion about the changing lines between theater, film, and TV careers.
• Don reflects on industry economics—star-power needed to fund plays and the tension it creates for working actors.
• Quote: “I feel, kind of conflicted sometimes about the people that we need to put in these plays to actually get the budgets...” — Don Cheadle [24:03]

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5. The Craft: Preparation & Physical Demands

Timestamp: 28:38–31:44

• Ayo details her vocal and physical preparation (“learning about my instrument”) and the shift from film to stage demands.
• Michelle shares how her own theatrical background aids her public speaking, underscoring the versatility and life skills inherent in theater training.
• Quote: “That’s kind of all you have [in theater]. You have all this rehearsal time.” — Ayo Edebiri [10:30]

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6. Family Influence, Artistic Legacies, and Generational Change

Timestamp: 38:42–43:42

• Both Ayo and Don credit their supportive (and artistic) parents—parents who, despite challenging upbringings or set expectations, encouraged creative pursuits.
• Quote: “My dad wanted to study film... My grandfather came down and was like, cool, you can graduate. And then you have to, like, apply to law school after.” — Ayo Edebiri [41:30]
• Michelle relates the sacrifices of previous generations and the importance of forging new creative legacies for Black families.

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7. Reimagining Black Narratives in the Arts

Timestamp: 43:43–49:02

• Discussion of why the "Proof" revival is significant for Black representation—not as a political statement, but as an acknowledgment of existence and diversity within Black families.
• The complexities of portraying mental health issues and family dynamics authentically, and how being Black in America shapes those nuances on stage.

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8. Audience Reactions & Accessibility

Timestamp: 49:30–53:07

• Lively stories about real-time audience reactions—a unique energy at live performances, especially when Black audiences see themselves reflected.
• Quote: “Somebody told me that they were sitting behind two black women... And when Kara came on for her second scene, they were like, ‘Oh, here she go. Uh-oh, here she go.’” — Don Cheadle [52:01]
• Commitment from both actors to make theater accessible: supporting school and community partnerships, fundraising, and buyout nights for students and low-income attendees.

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9. Artistic Communities & Changes in Auditioning

Timestamp: 57:48–64:27

• Don describes the old LA audition scene, where young actors would go to auditions together and support whoever got the job.
• Ayo describes her peer network—mutual support among young up-and-coming creatives, especially Black women, and how they resist the “there’s only room for one” narrative.
• Quote: “If there isn’t [space], then we make space for each other. Duh.” — Ayo Edebiri [64:21]
• Reflections on the isolation and practical barriers newer actors face today with self-taped auditions.

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10. The Highs, Lows, and Endurance Needed for Creative Careers

Timestamp: 64:56–65:57

• Both guests reflect on the emotional challenges and resilience needed in artistic careers—addressing burnout, navigating public success/private struggle, and the importance of support networks.
• Quote: “That endurance, that you have to learn. And that’s pretty invaluable, I think, just as much as talent…” — Ayo Edebiri [64:21]

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11. What’s Next & Reflections on Time

Timestamp: 66:41–71:04

• Don and Ayo discuss upcoming projects and the value of being strategic with their time and energy.
• Both share stories about aging in the industry, the need for rest, and maintaining physical and mental health.
• Quote: “It’s the one thing... you can't get it back. And you don't want to be in a situation where you look back and go, wow, I just wasted eight months of my time...” — Don Cheadle [67:13]

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12. Closing Laughter & Notable Moments

Timestamp: 71:22–77:48

• The trio reflect on stretching, yoga, and the changes that come with aging—combined with a hearty dose of playful teasing.
• Michelle and Don joke about “old Hollywood.”
• Michelle closes with heartfelt praise for both guests, underscoring how critical their presence is for the new generation and encouraging listeners to see "Proof" before its run ends.

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Memorable Quotes

• “I’m timely. I’m timeless. We are timeless. We exist. We’ve always existed. And we will continue to exist and persist…” — Ayo Edebiri [48:40]
• “You’re always questioning, always digging.” — Michelle Obama, about Don Cheadle’s approach to the craft [07:16]
• “There’s space for all of us. If there isn’t, then we make space for each other.” — Ayo Edebiri [64:21]
• “Some of the best talent in the business is right here in this city, on these streets. I mean, what it takes to show up every day…” — Michelle Obama [26:39]
• “When you experience it, everybody’s so grateful for it.” — Ayo Edebiri on live theater’s lasting power [25:14]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:07–04:56: Guest bios and introductions
• 07:27–10:30: Explaining and reimagining "Proof"
• 12:00–14:58: Broadway debut and theatrical journeys
• 20:31–25:14: Industry reflections and star-power economics
• 28:38–31:44: Theater preparation and performance process
• 38:42–43:42: Family influence and non-traditional career support
• 43:43–49:02: Legacy, representation, and the Black family narrative
• 49:30–53:07: Live audience reactions, laughter, and accessibility efforts
• 57:48–64:27: Actor community, auditioning shifts, peer support
• 64:56–65:57: Navigating career highs, lows, and endurance
• 66:41–71:04: What’s next, time management, and aging in the arts
• 71:22–77:48: Final reflections, fitness, and lively send-off

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Final Takeaways

This episode brims with humor, candor, and inspiration. Through intimate anecdotes and honest discussions, Michelle, Don, and Ayo illustrate why shows like "Proof" matter and how artists can drive cultural change—not just by telling new stories, but by showing up, supporting each other, and opening doors for generations to come. Their shared message: identity is multifaceted, endurance is essential, and the arts—when made accessible—are a powerful force for self-realization and community.

Host’s Call to Action:
Go see "Proof" on Broadway before July 19th and support accessibility programs that make theater possible for all young people.

Transcript

[Michelle Obama]

IO, your parents were pretty on board with you. Were you always kind of the quirky kid?

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Honestly, in my memories, I'm, like, deeply normal. And then my cousins are always like, oh, you were so funny and weird. And I'm like, okay, well, how funny.

[Michelle Obama]

This episode of IMO is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Well, everybody, welcome to IMO in New York. It's a special episode. Cause I'm by myself. My big brother.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah, I was wondering where Craig was.

[Michelle Obama]

I guess, you know, traveling, everything. It's not. He's a busy guy now. He's a busy guy. Busy guy, busy. But I'm here, and we're in New York because I just saw an amazing production of Proof on Broadway. And we're gonna talk about that here today with a couple of special people here who are the reasons why this play is so amazing. Don and IO, it's good to have you here.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Thank you.

[Don Cheadle]

Glad to be here.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

For those of you who don't know Higher Ground, Barack and I, we were also co producing this amazing production, and we are just thrilled to be a part of it, because this version of the play is exactly the kind of stuff that Barack and I want to be involved with, telling stories that are reimagined in ways that have an impact. So we are thrilled. But I have to formally introduce you all to the IMO audience. So I'm just gonna read your quick bios just in case you don't know who you are.

[Don Cheadle]

Oh, appreciate it.

[Michelle Obama]

Okay. But we have Don Cheadle. The one and only is one of Hollywood's most versatile and enduring talents.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

I like that.

[Michelle Obama]

This is my friend, so I know you're a little embarrassed. Perhaps best known for his performances in the films Devil in a Blue Dress, which I just rewatched a couple of days ago.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Gosh. I also just rewatched it a couple days ago, and I tell you, it's really good.

[Michelle Obama]

You just turned into another dude. I guess that's your job.

[Don Cheadle]

Yes, Mouse. Yeah, he does his thing.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, Mouse. But also Boogie Nights, Traffic and Hotel Rwanda. That earned you an Academy Award nomination. Don is an actor, producer, and activist whose work on and off screen reflects a deep commitment to storytelling that matters.

[Don Cheadle]

Thank you.

[Michelle Obama]

And IO, my little friend here is one of the most exciting young talents in Hollywood.

[Don Cheadle]

Let's go.

[Michelle Obama]

I know. Whose groundbreaking role as Sidney in FX's acclaimed series the Bear earned her an Emmy, a Golden Globe, and virtually every other major television award in a single suite. Damn, girl. She is an actress, writer, director, and comedian whose meteoric Rise has made her one of the most sought after voices of her generation.

[Don Cheadle]

How about that?

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. What do we do with that? What do you do with that?

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

What do I do with that? I don't know. Just kind of make it to what day. We could say we don't know.

[Michelle Obama]

We already decided that we don't know.

[Don Cheadle]

We don't know. I've been calling it one day, but you guys didn't vibe that too much?

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

No, we missed it.

[Don Cheadle]

Whatever you mean by that. No, I get it.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

I'm not clear, but I. But there's something there. I think if it was written, it feels like a New Yorker comic joke. You know what I mean? Yeah, it feels like that sort of

[Don Cheadle]

vibe because it would be a Monday, but then one day dim off, and

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

then one day already visualizing it. I'm laughing, there's a smile on my face. You two, I'm feeling lighter.

[Michelle Obama]

Clearly connected already.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

What?

[Michelle Obama]

Did you know each other before? Because you act like you really have known each other forever.

[Don Cheadle]

No, which.

[Michelle Obama]

Which works really well for this play.

[Don Cheadle]

No, we did not. I mean, we'd met, you know, but we hadn't spent any real time with each other. And for me, because it predates me, you were talking about this play with Tommy and with Mike, you know, before I was on board.

[Michelle Obama]

Tommy Kailey.

[Don Cheadle]

Tommy Kail, director.

[Michelle Obama]

Mike Bosnar, lead producer.

[Progressive Insurance Narrator]

Yeah.

[Don Cheadle]

And by the time I came into it and knew IO was going to be playing Katherine, I was so excited about it. And when we first met, you know, not to be trite, but it just felt like. What you're saying, it did feel like we'd known each other a long time, and I felt instantly paternal. I felt, you know, my daughter's very close to her age, and I just. Yeah, yeah. So it was just right off the bat. And then once we started working and realized that we worked in a similar way and that we had similar ideas about the approach to the material, and it just all kicked off and kept going.

[Michelle Obama]

Did you have someone in mind? Were you thinking of Don as you were thinking about this reimagined version of the play? I think.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Well, Dawn's name. I'm not. I mean, I think it was the first one that we came up with. I think also sometimes, I don't know, maybe this is just me, but I always do sort of like exercises of like, oh, who could be my parent? You know, who'd be like the dream person? And I think part of it is, you know, obviously vibe and all those things, but just people who, you really admire and whose work you really love. And, yeah, Dawn's sort of like, always been on my eternal list. And it was like the first name that both Tommy and I had said. We were like, okay, let's go away and come up with names. And then it was like, well, I mean, but I wasn't sure, as I think I do often with people that I revere. I was like, I don't even know

[Michelle Obama]

if he'd be interested in this.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

If he knows who either of us is. I don't know. And the fact that he said yes was just a dream. But then again, you know, meeting. I think sometimes it can be really hard to meet your heroes. And, you know, I think we've all had experiences where you walk away and you're like, okay, well, he's happened.

[Michelle Obama]

That happened.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

That's information that I have now. And I'm. I mean, you know him, he's your friend. But like, there was just such a graciousness.

[Michelle Obama]

But also.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

And I'm really averting eye contact.

[Don Cheadle]

I get it, I get it.

[Michelle Obama]

Look at him in the eye, Aya.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

For me, it's always really heartening. I love my job. I would like to do it for as long as possible. And when I meet people who I really admire and revere, and I see that to them, they are still on the first day. Like, they are still so in communication with their inner child and with their curiosity and with their drive.

[Michelle Obama]

Are you down a big baby?

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Huge.

[Don Cheadle]

Wow, Nice extraction. Got there very deftly.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Just really childish and sort of unable

[Michelle Obama]

to grow or learn.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

No, but just, you know, like, there's still a curiosity and a hunger and like, I don't know. There's. No, not that there. It's like, not a dissatisfaction, but you know what I mean?

[Don Cheadle]

It's like there is a dissatisfaction.

[Michelle Obama]

You're just not content. He's never content. Always questioning, always digging.

[Don Cheadle]

And that's a very similar journey that I think we're both on.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, let's give our listeners, our audience, a sense of what Proof is about. Because it's a revival. It opened in 2000. Playwright is David Austin, Tony winner, Pulitzer Prize winning play. And not everybody is familiar with Proof. Can you guys talk about the premise and why this reimagined version is so powerful?

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Well, the play according to David, or like, to quote David when he describes it, because often people ask, what is it about? And he says, at its core, it's a family drama, and at the center of it is who I play, who is 25, and maybe I'll try to do a spoiler free version, but it explores the relationships between herself and her father, who was a genius but troubled mathematician and professor. Her sister, who they all live in Chicago, who now lives in New York and comes back home, and one of her father's proteges, a student named Hal. And, yeah, it goes through time, it goes through their relationships. And one of the questions at the center of it is, I don't know. There's a lot of different questions, but legacy and truth, yeah, those are big themes in it. I don't know.

[Don Cheadle]

Madness, genius. You know, where is the line? How do we straddle it?

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

What does it look like?

[Don Cheadle]

What does it look like success look like? What does sisterhood, sisterhood look like?

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

In a huge way?

[Michelle Obama]

Trust.

[Don Cheadle]

Responsibility. Trust.

[Michelle Obama]

It's a big play. It's a big play. And the original play was. It was written for a white cast, a white family. And Tommy Kail and Mike decided. And was it intentional to revive it with a black family? Did you all have those discussions?

[Don Cheadle]

And I think Tommy, you know, wanted to. I think Tommy and David had entered a conversation with Mike at some point, and they decided that they wanted Catherine to be IO So once they decided that, it sort of dictated who the family would be in some ways.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Both Kara and Jyn, Kara Young and Jin Ha, who are also in the play with us.

[Michelle Obama]

Kara plays your sister. Love Kara. For those of you who love Broadway. She was on purpose, amazing in that.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Yes. She is a living legend. It is really cool to be, I don't know, to work with her and know her and love her and just be like, I'm watching, like the. I know what I'm watching. It's very cool.

[Michelle Obama]

And then Jen plays Hal.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Plays Hal, who's amazing actor as well. But they're. I call them our Broadway doulas because they're a little bit more versed than us. And both of them are like. It feels almost like working on a new play, the way that we have been rehearsing and workshopping with each other, which is really exciting. It's a bit different from film and TV because with this, with theater, it's all about the process. That's kind of all you have. You have all this rehearsal time. You're so funny. I was looking at it.

[Michelle Obama]

Did you see? You too. You too. Talk more about the process. It's like, dad, don't do that. Ew.

[Don Cheadle]

But you already drink a bug.

[Michelle Obama]

What do you do?

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Where did you see it, though?

[Michelle Obama]

It's got water. I mean, that's a specialty. Of imo, we try to.

[Don Cheadle]

You're trying to get.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Right.

[Michelle Obama]

Exactly, exactly.

[Don Cheadle]

I'm sure another one will get in there somehow.

[Michelle Obama]

But let's talk a bit about the fact that for both of you, this is your broadcast.

[Don Cheadle]

I'm not scared of a bug.

[Michelle Obama]

Did you want new ones? No, I'm cool. You know that.

[Don Cheadle]

How many bugs we eat a year.

[Michelle Obama]

He's one with the earth.

[Don Cheadle]

That's right.

[Michelle Obama]

He understands how many bugs we eat a year. And I have no interest, you know, I'm sure it's just no telling the

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

average people like Don, who are eating probably a thousand bugs a year, more bugs than most.

[Michelle Obama]

Who's taking the bug out of their water.

[Don Cheadle]

That's right.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

But we digress.

[Don Cheadle]

We digress. We digress. We're back.

[Michelle Obama]

But we don't know because IO and I, we do not know.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

No, you don't.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah, yeah, we'll get that info flying in. Anyway, that's good.

[Michelle Obama]

That's good. But anyway, this is both of your debut on Broadway, so why now? Especially Don, for you, old man.

[Don Cheadle]

Cool, cool. I'll take that.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Yeah. That one was for you, the old man.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah, I figured that out.

[Michelle Obama]

Okay.

[Progressive Insurance Narrator]

Yeah, yeah.

[Don Cheadle]

This is the love I get from the Obamas on the regular. This is kind of.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

You should be so lucky.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah, I feel very blessed. For me, it was, again, timing. It was the right auspices. It was, you know, getting to work with IO, having the opportunity to work with Tommy, obviously very experienced and really good director. And it's just somehow worked out. I'd been playing around with the idea for a couple years and trying to work on a couple different things and developing things, and just the time never really presented itself to have that much unencumbered time to carve out to do it. But this. This had all the reasons to say

[Michelle Obama]

yes for me and you. You guys are both theater nerds deep down. You in particular, Don, you. You came out of theater. That was your first love. Can you talk a bit about that journey?

[Don Cheadle]

I mean, I've. You know, I was doing plays in Iowa, too, in elementary school and, you know, all throughout high school. And then I graduated and went to California Institute of the Arts and studied theater there and did that, you know, for four years and did a zillion plays there. And then when I graduated, I, you know, I did regional theater at the Guthrie and at the Goodman, the Public and Mixed Blood and the Twin Cities. And I've just was something I always kept up. And yet. And 25 years ago, as you mentioned, I did Top Dog. Underdog. When this play opened, Proof actually opened on Broadway, and Bridget, my wife, was telling me about it. So it's been something that. That was the last time I've been on stage. But I always knew it was something somewhere, and just everything had to come together. And it kind of did. I mean, it's funny because I met Kara on the set of I Love Boosters, which comes out next month, and she didn't know who she was talking to because I have all these prosthetics on for this thing. And I said, oh, I'm Don Cheadle. She's like, what?

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Who said?

[Don Cheadle]

But I was talking about, oh, I've got this play reading coming up. You know, I've got this reading offer to do Proof, and IO Adebri is going to be doing it. I'm really excited about it. And it's weird how things come together, and I don't know if I'm going to do it, but I'm going to do the reading and the timing, and we're just talking about all this kismet stuff. And her phone dings, and she looks at me, and she looks at me and turns the phone to me, and it said, you have a offer to. Oh, my God, read Proof. And we were like, oh, well, I

[Michelle Obama]

guess this is meant to be.

[Don Cheadle]

We're supposed to do this. Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, yeah. Steven Spielberg told me that who gets cast is who's supposed to be cast, which is why he never worries about whether somebody can do it or not. Because it's like, it happens when it happens. The right person does it at the right time. Because scheduling and getting this stuff right is a big part of who does what when in this business.

[Don Cheadle]

100%.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Progressive Insurance Narrator]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, a company committed to helping people move forward and live fully. When I bought my first home, I played it very safe on paper. It made sense. Mish, what is something you wish you knew when you were buying your first home?

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, I mean, I don't want to be repetitive, but hearing you talk, it's the same thing. I mean, I think over the course of our lives, before going into the White House, we bought our first condominium and played it conservative, and we bought our first home. Now, my husband wouldn't say that we were being conservative, but it is true that there's. You know, I think there's a benefit to being somewhat conservative because you don't want to grow up. As our dad said, house poor. And I think we worry a lot about that because that was sort of the theory of working class folks. But the truth is, is that you want to get the. I wish I had known that getting the most for your dollar was actually the better strategy.

[Progressive Insurance Narrator]

Yeah, yeah. So what advice would you give young people today as they approach bigger and bigger life choices, like purchasing their first home?

[Michelle Obama]

Well, I would say talk to people who've been in your shoes. You know, I think our parents were never homeowners. Right. So we didn't really have them as a guide. So I would say to young people, if you don't come from a home owning background, ask questions. You know, if you're buying a home, you're gonna need a bank. You should sit down with someone who has an expertise to help walk you through the process and help you think about how much you should be investing, how much you should be saving so that you're not going in blind.

[Progressive Insurance Narrator]

Yeah, yeah. I'd say while it feels stressful, you'll be very happy with the result. How do you think our childhood prepared us for making such big decisions, such as home ownership?

[Michelle Obama]

I think with kids, you let them start practicing with the small decisions. Right. You can't raise kids to not ever make decisions and think they'll be ready for the big decisions. So what our mom and dad I think did a good job with is that they gave us responsibility early on and let us choose. You know, setting your own alarm clock and getting yourself up, making the decision about what you were gonna wear every day, deciding how you were gonna pace, how to do your homework and you valued. You know, I think our parents forced us to make small decisions first so that we grew into the bigger decisions.

[Progressive Insurance Narrator]

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[Don Cheadle]

I mean, we almost didn't know if we were. You were working up to, what, two days before you came to rehearsal?

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

What were you working on?

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

I was finishing the last season of Bear.

[Michelle Obama]

Okay. Yeah.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

And both Eben and I previously had been cleared to do the show. Eben's now in Dog Day, and I got cleared to do this. And then the. Just again, schedules and a lot of math. That's, like, a pretty big cast. So it ended up pushing our filming. And, yeah, I filmed, like, up till two days before, and I got to rap, and then I had to wait till the end of that day. So I got one day to pack and go back home and dump all my stuff and then get all my winter things. And then I came out here, and then I. I showed up to rehearsal, and I was like, hello.

[Michelle Obama]

And theater, you know, look, I love theater. I love all stage plays, musicals, you name it. There's just something about being in community with people and watching powerful.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

It's deeply, deeply powerful.

[Michelle Obama]

People right there doing their thing. And I'm kind of biased. I do think that actors who have had theater experience, and it seems like the lines are a lot less blurred now. I mean, before, it's like, if you did TV and film, that's what you did. Theater people did. Theater people, they did the theater stuff. And now I don't know if it's me, but it just feels like everybody's doing a little bit of everything. You know, George Clooney just did Broadway. Taraji's up there now. I mean, we could go on and on. Can you guys talk about that trend? How does that feel for you guys?

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

I'm more curious from your end, because you're old, you've been around.

[Michelle Obama]

You're.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

So you've basically been acting since the dawn of time.

[Don Cheadle]

Dawn of time, yeah.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

And so I guess for you, When

[Michelle Obama]

Jesus Wore Sandals, I feel like my

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

career has come into fruition. Your first role, obviously. Yeah, sort of. You were the original Joseph in the Technicolor Dreamcoat.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah, original Joseph.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Yeah. But, like, I think because my career has kind of been blown up in this way after Covid, I think also that is a huge part of it where I'm like, well, everything is soup. Like, everything has sort of been a bit strange, and we're, like, kind of figuring our way back to.

[Michelle Obama]

So you built your career in strange. Yeah, exactly. In many ways.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

In so many ways. I have come out of the strange. Yeah.

[Don Cheadle]

But, you know, I've always been an early adopter about whatever, you know, and I was. I was doing a show on Showtime very early.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Yes.

[Don Cheadle]

You know, and I was like, oh, what's the streaming thing about?

[Michelle Obama]

Let's try that.

[Don Cheadle]

And I've just always been. I go where the material is. And, you know, so many writers flocked to TV because they were. Now, they were unable to do what they wanted to do in film because films started becoming just about tentpole stuff. And I've been in a bunch of them and, you know, those kinds of.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, I didn't even mention your Marvel oceans. All the.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

It's fine. It doesn't. You did that. You can do it now.

[Don Cheadle]

They had that in the intro, and I was like, can you take that out?

[Michelle Obama]

Took it out.

[Don Cheadle]

Okay.

[Michelle Obama]

Why was. Like, why didn't we talk about any of that?

[Don Cheadle]

Because all of her stuff was so heady and lofty and incredible. And I was like, you're going to talk about me in a suit, but I can't.

[Michelle Obama]

No, wait.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

I cannot with that.

[Don Cheadle]

But no, no, no, no. Hate on the Marvel stuff. Thank you.

[Michelle Obama]

Pays the bill. Allows you to do the theater stuff.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah. You know.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Pays for the barn.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

That's like my d. Not disappointed.

[Don Cheadle]

I wish you didn't know so much about me, Michelle. Moving on. To quote Methuselah, no, look, I think that theater is never left my blood. It's never not been something I've wanted to get back to at some time in some way. And I think another thing that's playing on this is, unfortunately, the economics, you know, of what it takes to mount a production. And I feel, you know, kind of conflicted sometimes about the people that we need to put in these plays to actually get the budgets for the players

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

and then to recoup and all of that.

[Don Cheadle]

And there's jobbing actors that have been out here, you know, doing it for a long time that are, like, kind of getting squeezed out often when these kinds of casting opportunities happen. So it cuts both ways for me a little bit, because I love the opportunity and want to come here and do it. And I really. A big part of also wanting to do this play was really to. It's Catherine's play, it's Ayo's play, and I wanted to support her and support that journey. And, you know, I'm the smallest part in it, but I really wanted to

[Michelle Obama]

come and, like, well, don't tell people that.

[Don Cheadle]

Pop the kids up.

[Michelle Obama]

He's in it a Lot, y'.

[Don Cheadle]

All, I'm in it a lot. They're just in it a lot more.

[Michelle Obama]

But I do think that, you know, I understand that rub, but I think that the way audiences think, I mean, we're trying to get people off their phones and into the theater. And I feel.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

I feel like every time it happens also, I don't know, maybe that's my own sort of naivete or whatever. But, like, when it happens, when you experience it, everybody's, like, so grateful for it. Absolutely.

[Michelle Obama]

Absolutely.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

And even to the effect of, like, the type of work that's made, I feel like often the things that come out of or pierced through cultural conversation are often so strange or feature a cast where you don't really know that many people. Maybe you saw one person whose name you knew, but everybody else you don't know. You know, there's the weird things and the strange things, but then that doesn't end up being the takeaway from, like, a structural industry standpoint. Like, the takeaway isn't like, oh, let's do more shows with unknown cast. It's like, we really like cooking stuff in Chicago.

[Michelle Obama]

So not everything, you know, it's all

[Don Cheadle]

in the rear view area, Right?

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Yeah. And so, I don't know, but I

[Michelle Obama]

think you guys lending your talent to. To theater is helping because it's gonna put people in seats. It's gonna, you know, reinvigorate things.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

I hope so.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. You know, at this point, I don't care why people come to the theater. I just want them to come. And if they come, because it's like, oh, I know, Don and IO I get to see them up close. You guys don't have the schedules and the time to do theater always. So if you can get somebody hooked, then you guys go off. I mean, I like the way some productions are doing it. A production gets established with a star,

[Don Cheadle]

and then you move other people in it.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Somebody else in it. And then people now know that this play on its own, without the star power, is something that we want to see. We want our kids to be in those seats. We want, you know, our communities to be back to that. Live kind of. So that's true. I think it's a. It's a hook. It's an important hook. I don't think this is a forever hook. I think that the talent on Broadway is unbelievable. Some of the best talent in the business is right here in this city on these streets. I mean, what it takes to show up every day. And I wanna talk physically, I wanna talk about that for a bit. Like, how you and I want our audience to understand. What does it take to prepare? I mean, how did you guys approach this Play your roles? You know, I'm gonna tease Don again. I mean, when I saw you. Barack. I went with Barack. Barack and I had date night proof, and we were like, dang, Don got a dad bod. It's like, what did I. It's like, the last time I saw you, you were cut up. I thought, I am what you're talking about. You are, and I know you are.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

That's the thing. Because I swear to God, I was like, I expected.

[Michelle Obama]

When I saw you backst. No, you didn't. My point was, when I saw you backstage, I was almost like, oh, great. Okay, it's still in there. I was sitting there thinking so many shots. When did he gain all that weight?

[Don Cheadle]

Acting, Acting.

[Michelle Obama]

So you weren't wearing anything, you just turned into a dad box?

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah. Stick your stomach out and push the gut Bowling.

[Michelle Obama]

Don't you have a dad? Was it the costume?

[Don Cheadle]

Sure.

[Michelle Obama]

But anyway, we digress.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

I don't feel like, what's the digression?

[Don Cheadle]

I don't think this is a digression. I think we've now leaned into the theme of this podcast. This is really what it's about with Don.

[Michelle Obama]

That's why we have you in the cinder.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Yeah, you're in the hot seat.

[Michelle Obama]

You're in the hot seat.

[Don Cheadle]

No doubt.

[Michelle Obama]

But talk about your preparation.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

I mean, I, like, physically, I had started doing vocal training for the year before because also I found myself losing my voice during award season. This is so.

[Michelle Obama]

Because you were accepting so many times

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

speeches just because I don't know how to stop talking to people. And I was like, I know that I want to do a play. And then I knew that it was going to be this play, and so I really wanted to get ready. And that required just a lot of learning about my instrument. Things that also, I think I was in practice with, but not consciously when I was doing standup on the regular. And then since doing a lot more TV and film, it's just a muscle you don't have to use. I don't have to reach the back of the room when I'm Mike, you know, like. So that was like, a. Definitely a part of it. And I think when we knew that it was gonna happen, we would talk about the script and sort of read it. I don't know when you, like, had started actively memorizing, but I had tried to get it into my bones as much as possible. And then when I knew I wanted to start earlier, and then Bear ended up happening. So I would just read it on set. If I didn't have, like, a crazy amount of lines, and I remember Lionel and Will Poulter, I would pull them a lot. Cause Eben also was working on his own stuff for Dog Day. So we would kind of be in little corners, just, like, reading and then picking up our sides and being like, do we know our actual job today?

[Michelle Obama]

And.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Yeah, and there's things where it's like, Katherine has these long passages of things where that is, like, memorized or things that are. So that was the first stuff that I tried to tackle. The stuff where I'm like, well, this is language that's in her bones, so it should be the first stuff that's in mine.

[Michelle Obama]

And then when you say it was memorized, are there parts of the play that are more inward?

[Don Cheadle]

Like when she recites.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

When I recite something from memory. But, like, I'm Katherine. That's so weird, too.

[Michelle Obama]

It's a trip. Yeah. It's like, what do you mean, from memory? But it's her memory. And her memory.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

It's her memory. So I was like, well, that has to be something. That's right. And then that makes me change that every. What are things that I know? Sorry, my long winded.

[Michelle Obama]

No, no, no. I mean, it's powerful. And. Because I'm thinking about these conversations with young people listening and young people that are interested in this kind of stuff. Because you guys all talked about. We all have our theater experience when we were young. I mean, I was in the operetta workshop. I mean, there's always. You know, I had an aunt that ran the community theater. I mean, we. That piece of. Well, I used to like improv when I was a little kid. Yeah. Yeah, I did. And, you know, it's like, theater training prepares you for a lot more than acting. I mean, I think it plays a role in my comfort level, public speaking. In public speaking, in the way I interact with people, you know, to just

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

adapt to storytelling situations.

[Don Cheadle]

What you get adept at or what you hopefully, you know, one of the biggest muscles you're flexing is just being a storyteller. And there's not any business that you can even name that doesn't have as one of its components, what's the story that I'm telling about this job? What's the story that I'm telling about this business? What's the story that this industry has? So it is applicable to so many different Things. And it teaches you how to play well with others. And it teaches you, you know, that you're not the center of the universe. And, you know, you need to be, you know, malleable. And there's give and take. And the strongest thing that you can be, I think is a. As a performer is a listener and, you know, be able to reflect back what you hear and be in conversation. And I think that's all of those skills are very important to just manage life.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

I think also when I first like realized that maybe this was something that I wanted to do, a big fear that I had because both of my parents are not in the industry and, and we similarly. It's like I have a godmom who went to the first black AME church and would do a Christmas program and she was in church based on an opera singer, was writing church plays, you know, that sort of thing. But that was pretty much our purview of the whole thing. It didn't go much further than that. I didn't even think. I realized writing was a job you could have. I thought that there were actors and directors. Like, I didn't, I didn't realize that people wrote the scripts that were different from the. The people who said them and the guy, you know, and like Spike Lee. I didn't really know that. And I think I sometimes can forget. Cause I'm like. I get sick of the sound of my own voice. That it can be helpful to hear those more granular parts of things and the more like, practical, tactical parts of things. And that is what I think I was able to latch onto when I was also like, convincing my parents that I would be okay and that I could survive. And that actually there's unions and.

[Don Cheadle]

Right.

[Michelle Obama]

Have health insurance because that's what parents would. How you going to get health insurance?

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah, yeah. Don't think you're coming back here. I ain't paying for you. Figure it out.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

They would not and they did not. But you're.

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[Michelle Obama]

IO Your parents were pretty on board with you. Were you always kind of the quirky kid?

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Well, honestly, in my memories, I'm like, deeply normal. And then my cousins are always like, oh, you're so funny and weird. And I'm like, okay, well, how funny?

[Don Cheadle]

Wait, am I a joke to you?

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Yeah. Also, when I went back to my high school, did I tell you this?

[Don Cheadle]

No.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

I went back and a bunch of my teachers came and said, hey. And everybody was acting so weird, but they were all like, this is crazy, huh? Like, this is really weird.

[Don Cheadle]

Like, we never saw this.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Not really.

[Don Cheadle]

We thought you were gonna live in the alley.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Well, but yeah, I was a freak and I. But I guess I was surrounded by others. Like all my friends, we were just all weirdos. And my friend Schlee came actually, and we just were remembering all these insane things, but we were supporting each other in that. And I felt like our parents were really supportive of that. Cause, you know, we were well behaved and we made sure the grades were right. And so then, yeah, if you want to like, learn how to play oboe or do improv or. Shali's really obsessed with. With Michael Jackson at the time. And so it was like, okay, if you wanna make videos where she's Michael Jackson using, like, your dad's camcorder and you're figuring out how to edit or whatever, like, fine. And so, yeah, when I told my parents that I didn't wanna study education anymore and that I wanted to pursue this, I remember I took them to an ihop and I was like. I was like, this is gonna be the worst moment of my life. Have some short staff on me, you know? And my dad looks like two more sa. Please, please keep him. Keep him coming. And my dad looked at me and he said, honey, you know, we were there when we raised you right.

[Michelle Obama]

We've seen you.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

And I was like, great. Like, those were the people who was. I. I wasn't taking the Fenghua bus unsupervised at 10. It's. My mom was taking me. Cause she knew I had this passion. And they were taking me to see the urban nutcracker and to see Wicked when it came to Boston on tour. And, you know, my dad was always showing me amazing movies. And actually when I graduated, which is, like, funny thinking about the show and the legacies that we know and we don't know. My dad wanted to study film. He went to Emerson. And then his dad found out because this was like analog days. And so, you know, he basically was like, yeah, yeah, everything's fine in America. And then a cousin called my grandfather and was like, he's not studying to be a lawyer, he's going to film school. And my grandfather came down and was like, cool, you can graduate. And then you have to, like, apply to law school after.

[Michelle Obama]

Because your parents are immigrants. Both of them?

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Yes, both of them. My mom's from Barbados and my dad is from Nigeria. Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

So they were definitely. Don't play. No, they sent you here to be a doctor.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Responsibility. They have siblings and they had things to do and people to help and secure things for. And I think, yeah, it was a cool thing, though, where I was like, oh, my dad isn't continuing that cycle and he wants me to do well and, you know, make sure that everything is okay. But he also knows that, like, there's no point in, I don't know, this life if.

[Michelle Obama]

If you don't follow your passions.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, my father, actually, I've said this before, he was. My dad worked as a stationary fireman, blue collar worker. But my dad was a really gifted artist. I mean, he sculpted, painted, got a scholarship to the Art Institute. We grew up in Chicago. But he didn't pursue those dreams because, you know, he had to raise a family. He had to, you know, so it's to understand that there was a generation of parents and grandparents who couldn't do this. No, it wasn't even. It was there in their bones.

[Don Cheadle]

But then that reminds me, I was gonna say my mom was also a frustrated artist, I think, you know, and it was. I had a very, luckily, a very similar, you know, sort of perspective from my parents who, you know, my parents drove me to CalArts and drove me home, and there was never any question about what I wanted to do. They were like, oh, are you gonna pursue music or are you gonna pursue acting? Because those are the two things that you've been passionate about and really want to do similarly, you know, you gotta do your schoolwork and get your grades and do all that stuff. But they were like, there was no question I was going to college. That wasn't. But they were just like, you can pursue Anything you want in college, you're going to college. But whatever you studied, just really study it and be serious about it. And I can remember, you know, when I first started and it was hard and struggling and would be between jobs and calling my mom and saying, I don't know if I made the right choice. And she said, you've been talking about doing this since you were 10 years old. Don't stop now.

[Michelle Obama]

See, that's just a beautiful thing, you know, to have parents who are rooting you on when it's times are tough. We have kids that are going to do non traditional things. You know, I have a kid that's interested in the business and good writer too. There is many a call where, you know, cause the business is crazy. And the thing that I. And there are times when she wonders whether in these times when there's so much going on, should she be writing, you know, and the thing I tell her is like, there are gonna be a lot of people who don't make it through these. They're just not situated. And especially when it comes to black voices, black writers, black directors, those of you who can stick in there and be there, we need them, we need you. We're gonna need storytellers and people with different perspectives, you know, so I mean, probably your parents were ahead of the curve, both of you guys, in thinking that through and understanding the power of having real, clear, decent people with good minds of color in this business. And thank God they did. I think that's also why it's important that the proof has been reimagined for a black family. First of all, so many of us are in, you know, there's some people out there who don't want to believe that there are black families that are professors and clinical science, like chiatrists and who are artists and you know, who are geniuses. And I think it's powerful to have this family not talk about the truth of their reality, but just living in it. You know, it's like we exist in so many different forms with so many different other challenges other than poverty or crime or whatever.

[Don Cheadle]

Exactly.

[Michelle Obama]

Can you guys talk a bit about that?

[Don Cheadle]

You know, going back to the, the, the David Auburn of it all and you know, the early conversations that you had with Tommy about it, there was. There's a clear understanding that these themes, these. A lot of these themes are universal, but they do look different for different people. And you know, what does legacy mean and what we get to leave behind? And you know, often it does. It is about something financial and in this play, it does center around the house. And, you know, who has ownership of that? Who has ownership of Dad's work? You know, what do we do with Dad's work? What does it mean? You know, to honor that or to exploit it or, you know. So I think that a lot of these themes work, but when we are talking about things like mental health, something that has traditionally not so much anymore, but I think, you know, has for a long time been like, we just don't talk about that. You know, that's just Uncle Ben, especially

[Michelle Obama]

in the black community over there. He just has nothing wrong with you, boy.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah, you're fine.

[Michelle Obama]

I know. He's in the basement.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah, that's fine. You know, now don't be there. He does something weird at 4 o'. Clock. Just put the TV tray and shut the door and he's fine.

[Michelle Obama]

And don't look him in the eye.

[Don Cheadle]

Don't look Uncle Ben in the eye. I don't have an Uncle Ben, just for the record, but the Uncle Ben I'm imagining is bananas. But yeah. So I think that for a black family, like I said, the things that we brought up to David, as far as we have to use, we have to figure out the word that we're using when the police come, because this Catherine may not get to be abusive to the police to make us have another scene in the play.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

So it's like, what are the words?

[Don Cheadle]

She's the word.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

She says, what happened?

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

What did she actually happen? And what's also happening underneath it? What's happening is these two sisters are missing each other. So how do we make can, you know, maintain that while also still allowing the play to be what it is?

[Don Cheadle]

And we're not detouring off into a play about that.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

That's right.

[Don Cheadle]

But we also can't act like that's

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

not something that also means something in Chicago in the 90s.

[Don Cheadle]

In the 90s. Absolutely.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

So, yeah, that's been cool, I think, to what you were saying also about this story and the now. It's so funny. It's like I didn't really consciously think about it until we started doing press. And I was thinking about that and I'm like, what is that?

[Michelle Obama]

That being the race aspect, are you saying?

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

I guess. And I was like, oh, it's because I'm a black woman all the time. I'm not thinking about why this is timely. I'm timely. I'm timeless. We are timeless. We exist. We've always existed. And we will continue to exist and persist and so it's like, I don't know, I'm thinking about it always in everything I do. And also at the same time, I'm

[Don Cheadle]

not, not thinking about it. You're just living.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Because I have to live my life. Because it's like, yeah, we are absolutely all political bodies, right? Sure. At the same time, I'm still, you know, I'm a human being. And David, in his writing of this, I mean, it's like one of my favorite things. And I think it's really hard to do as a writer. And he does so brilliantly. Every character is right and every character is wrong in the same scene.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Don Cheadle]

What was she trying to get?

[Michelle Obama]

This is the beauty of theater. I mean, yeah, you can do this in a movie, you know, but there is just something different about real people on stage, in the audience.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah. Can you talk about that? Cause that's one thing we've never had, we've never experienced is like, what's it like sitting there? Cause sometimes it's very noisy in a good way because people are like murmuring.

[Michelle Obama]

But that is exactly what was going on. And what I found, I think I was saying this to you guys, is that there was just a lot of guttural. Oh, I mean, people were feeling it because I think all, you know, there's so many themes and so many people who were seeing themselves or somebody they knew at some level you know, that felt like it was unexpected to the audience to have friends with some of

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

this stuff come in and I'm sure you as well, not that not funny haha. But like they'll be like, hey, why didn't you warn me about like X specific thing? I'm like, oh, like my bad. Like, why didn't you tell me it was two sisters? And I'm like, my fault, you know? Yeah, to that, like that micro or as macro as like you're saying mental health or you know, an ailing parent

[Don Cheadle]

or a lot of that come back, people going like, wow, I just went through this or I had to deal with this.

[Michelle Obama]

And if it had been an all black audience, they would have been talking

[Don Cheadle]

to you all the whole time.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

I don't.

[Michelle Obama]

Who do you think you are, girl?

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

We definitely had some of that. I think at one point there's a scene where I'm taking things out of a backpack and yeah, this woman. I just heard. It's also like, we have to. Sometimes moments will happen and it's like I just find myself like looking or I'm just like, I just need eyes right Now I just need eyes to stay here. And then I can go back and grab and a woman I just heard go, oh, orange. And me and Shin were just like, we're here.

[Michelle Obama]

We're here.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

We're here. We're still in this moment. We're here.

[Don Cheadle]

You're Katherine. I'm Hal. You're Katherine.

[Michelle Obama]

You're Hal.

[Don Cheadle]

I'm Katherine.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

You're Hal. I'm Katherine. I'm Katherine. You're Hal. We're here. Great. And I'm like, okay, what does this mean? Also for the rest of the show, this is quite early on that an orange appears. And so we're like, what is this gonna do? You just don't know.

[Don Cheadle]

Somebody told me that they were sitting in front of two black behind two black women. And when Kara came on for her second scene, they were like, oh, here she go. Uh. Oh, here she go.

[Michelle Obama]

That's why I love us. Yes, I love us. And the beauty of the. This reimagined revival is that it's gonna bring in new audiences.

[Don Cheadle]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

And I think that, you know, I mean, that brings light into it. It's a whole nother generation. It's a whole nother community of people who are gonna be introduced to David Auburn and his writing and the complexities of a script and these sets of characters. And that's what you're feeling.

[Don Cheadle]

And we have a lot of programs that we're supporting and fantastic. That the play is supporting. To do just that, to broaden access, to get students in at a price point, that's not prohibitive. Cause so much of it is prohibitive. When you talk about, you know, these plays, they're so out of reach for so many people.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Friends that I have like, that I met in college and were born and raised in New York and had never seen a Broadway show because there just wasn't access. They can't afford it, or they didn't go to the right school, be it public or private, that had a program that would take them for a day. You know, it's like. Like kind of mind boggling. So, yeah, we just both, I think, really had the intention and were matched in that with our producers into trying to make accessibility a real tractable thing.

[Michelle Obama]

How do you guys specifically influence that

[Don Cheadle]

decision skin in the game? We're giving money back toward it so that we can support it and having people match it and going out and fundraising around it.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

And we were. I mean, I, like, in a way that I think was newer for me. Maybe you're a little more versed, but I was like, I'm thinking of the people I know who have money and I'm figuring out how to write an email or like do a call. And I think also just meeting with our sincerity like that this is something that we really want because I think we've both been beneficiaries of access and so some of those programs look like, like buyout nights that are gonna happen. Reaching out to different, like schools and

[Michelle Obama]

nonprofits and the New York public school system is.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Yes, we partnered with them. Department of Education.

[Michelle Obama]

You hear that, y'?

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

All? So you know, we're trying still pursuing

[Don Cheadle]

some organizations for people who are. It's just a barrier. Just the price point's a barrier. Not just students, but just anyone who.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Anyone. Any.

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[Michelle Obama]

The community of actors that are supporting each other. I mean, one thing I love hearing from you and Bridget, Don, is in your early days, that community of young actors, many of whom are still your friends, you know, who you all. Some have made it, some haven't. And what that meant to you and IO, I'm curious about whether that a similar community exists for you. You wanna talk a little bit about that?

[Don Cheadle]

I think we were very lucky. You know, Bridget and I bumped into each other a lot in the early days and we were all trying to get work in LA. And I graduated. When I graduated from CalArts, I graduated with some, you know, some guys who are my similar types. And we kind of all lived within a block or two of each other all together, you know, roommates, you know, three, sometimes three at a place, two in a place. But we all kind of lived around each other. And when we would have auditions, we would just. Everybody would get, yeah, I'd be like, bruce, I got an audition. Jeff, I got an audition. And we would bum rush the audition together. And I'd go in and then I'd, you know, be coming out and go, wait, can you. Can you see my friend? And they're like, what? See him? And then he'd go in and he'd go, hey, one more of us. Can you see one more?

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

I'm obsessed with this.

[Don Cheadle]

And they would say to us, like, you know, if he gets the job, you don't get the job. I was like, yeah, but we get the check. Yeah, we're trying to keep this money in here. So I got to borrow from him, he's got to borrow from me.

[Michelle Obama]

This.

[Don Cheadle]

This bread. So one of us has to get it.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, right?

[Don Cheadle]

So we kind of had that mentality, and we were very fortunate to have that because it was not that way for most other people out there. It was dog eat dog. It was cutthroat but something about having that kind of comfort also made it that when I think we walked in the room, we weren't like the sweaty, desperate, have to get this thing. Which is so off putting for a lot of, you know, you, you can. That feels uncomfortable. You want to be around somebody that you're like, I want to be around this person. So we were able to sort of that community kind of help each other feel that. And then it just kind of spread. All of us were out there trying to do the same thing. And so many of us know each other and knew each other from that time. And you know, one of my closest friends from that time, his daughter is my goddaughter and they live, she lives with my kids. They all live together still, you know, in their 30s. And so it's. It was just something that's amazing. I'm still very close with those guys and I do think it was a rare and fortunate thing and I feel very lucky that we had it.

[Michelle Obama]

That doesn't sound like the business we hear talk about.

[Don Cheadle]

It is not. It is not. And now anymore. I mean, when people ask you. I'm sure when people ask me, they're like, I want to act. What can I do? I'm like, when I started, we went in a room and talked to human beings.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Yeah, I mean when I started, you went in the room and talked to human beings. And then like in the middle of that starting, it changed.

[Don Cheadle]

It changed.

[Michelle Obama]

So what is it now? So these are.

[Don Cheadle]

You've got a camera in the corner and you're doing self tapes and sometimes you don't get the whole script or you get. There was supposed to be all these rules that changed around it. Like you couldn't get six pages the night before to have to memorize and come in. And that kind of. I don't think anyone's obeying that stuff.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

No, it isn't.

[Don Cheadle]

They're still doing it. So you're meant to have like a camera set up and a good mic and a backdrop and a quiet place where you can shoot it. And you're expected to without benefit of notes, without benefit of any insight from anyone who's created this.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

You're directing yourself or your friends are directing you.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah. You're reading with whoever's available.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

You are. Maybe like if you're not borrowing space from a friend. They popped up in la. I don't know if they still exist, but it's psychotic rooms that you would pay for.

[Don Cheadle]

Oh yeah.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

So it's like you're paying to audition

[Don Cheadle]

for the right to not get a gig.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

To not get a gig, you know, it's a lot.

[Michelle Obama]

Which is just making it a more exclusive experience completely.

[Don Cheadle]

So the business is changing every day. And now with this insane merger that might happen, it's like there's gonna be fewer and fewer places to work, I think. We don't know. So when people ask me what they can do to become an actor, I say, say, do anything else. And. And if that's going to discourage you, then maybe you shouldn't do it, you know, because it's going to be a slog unless you. Unless you get super, super lucky or just undeniable. So I say work, you know, read plays, write, write. Right. You know, do. You don't have to just work. When you get a job, you can be working on being a better actor, a better writer on your own all the time. You have an iPhone, you can make a movie. You can, you know, and now there's no barrier. Upload it.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

You know, my friends or my cohort, I guess that I think about, a lot of us did come up generating our own material. When I think about Rachel Sennett, when I think about Quinto and like, you know that we.

[Don Cheadle]

Issa, Rae, Al.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, we were.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

And I mean, we were following them and Donald and people, you know, where it's like, okay, right, yeah, you make sketches and you post them online or you tweet or you. You do funny Instagram posts, you make videos. Like, you do these things at the same time, though. Those are also the people with, like, Rachel and I would ride the train and we would swap sets and give each other notes on our sets, you know, And I would go to Quinta and she'd be like, cool. I went to this, you know, I did sets here, here and here. Zach went here, here and here. These rooms are good for this. These rooms are good for that. Like, we were doing work in the real world as well as online and I think exchanging information with each other as well. Not wanting to gatekeep from each other. Cause to what you were saying also, like, I really was resonating with that, like, oh, the people that I was friends with and that I connected with and I still feel connected to. I don't think ever felt like that threat of, like, I have to be the only one in the room, you know, Like, I really do believe and there's more friends that I just will not name drop, but who I love very dearly, but where it's like, like we all knew that there was space for Each other, especially amongst, like, black women. I remember, like, having a conversation and then again, the name drop. But, like, with Ziyue at a job when she was writing and I was still assisting, and she was like, yeah, well, that's, like, obviously, like, a trick that they wanna play on us to cut each other out. There's space for all of us.

[Michelle Obama]

Yes.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

And if there isn't, then we make space for each other. Duh.

[Michelle Obama]

There you go.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

And I felt like I was, like, such a little baby writer, and I was like, thank God. You know, there's people like that.

[Michelle Obama]

Good.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

And Janelle James was at that same job, and it was the same thing. She was like, yeah, they're not gonna. No way. You think they're gonna get us? Nah. No, we stay in it. And that is, I think, a real skill. That endurance that, you know, fortitude that you have to learn. And that's pretty invaluable, I think, just as much as talent, sometimes even more. And I'm sure you can think of people. I can. Who are. I go, this was the most talented person that I ever knew.

[Don Cheadle]

This person's great. Can't bust a.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

You know. And when the going gets tough, they back out. Which is not to say that that isn't, you know, valid and that your feelings can get hurt. These can be hard and long and confusing. And you can. I mean, it's.

[Michelle Obama]

And careers are. They're highs and lows.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

There's highs and lows. And it's a weird thing also when it's, like, your passion, the. And especially if it's connected to creativity. But not just that, but if. When your passion becomes your vocation, when it becomes capital, you know, it's dangerous.

[Don Cheadle]

You can temp your job.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

It's really trippy. And so being able to find ways to navigate that, withstand that, have people that you can talk to, even. I mean, we had a day where hi to you was just like, help. Do you remember that in rehearsal you were like, yeah, that's it.

[Michelle Obama]

That's the job.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Some days feel bad. And I was like, oh, okay. Thank you.

[Michelle Obama]

That's serious.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Kind of links to something else.

[Don Cheadle]

Hey, yeah.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Yeah.

[Progressive Insurance Narrator]

You get over it.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Yeah.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

And, you know, I guess I did because I'm here.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, having you two, the dynamic duo in this play is. It's really the magic. But the entire cast is magic. And we are just grateful that you guys made the decision to, you know, dip your toe back into the theater lane, because it absolutely matters for. For all of the reasons that we talked about. Before we close. What's next? Is the question. What's next for you? IOU or. Oh. Or you may have till July. So next. So let's just.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

What is it now? April. Next is May 19th.

[Michelle Obama]

July 19th. Okay.

[Don Cheadle]

And then there are things. There are things that are supposed to happen afterwards. And you know, do you say that

[Michelle Obama]

because it's like, it could happen, it might not. Or.

[Don Cheadle]

I know that because some could happen, some might not, some are definitely happening, but I don't know that I want to happen with them. So. You know.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

You're so funny.

[Don Cheadle]

You know, it's like. I don't. It's.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Yeah, but that's real.

[Don Cheadle]

It's real. Cause you know, the one thing.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, you've also earned the right.

[Don Cheadle]

Well, look, I think anyone at any time can say what they want to do with their time and what is valuable for them to do with their time, because it's the one thing. I don't care how much they pay you, you can't buy. You can't get it back. And you don't want to be in a situation where you look back and go, wow, I just wasted eight months of my time or six months of my time, you know, Especially when I'm a little half dead. Yeah, you're old man.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, so you don't want to, like, choose wise.

[Don Cheadle]

You don't want to mess that up.

[Michelle Obama]

I forgot.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah, you forgot.

[Michelle Obama]

I forgot you were always going to bring you back.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

He's such a good actor. He was making.

[Michelle Obama]

He was young. Give him the gun. Show the guns again.

[Don Cheadle]

There you go. But, yeah, that, that's, that's. There's. There's definitely. And. And surprisingly more than there have ever been for me. Things lined up.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Don Cheadle]

For years. That if I wanted to actually, actually push. Go on. That I know I would be booked for a long, long time. So I'm trying to be strategic and mindful and thoughtful about how I really want to do this.

[Michelle Obama]

And then there's life.

[Don Cheadle]

That's what I'm saying. We are predisposed as actors to have that engine of like, I gotta eat, I gotta eat, eat, eat, eat. It's not gonna be here. Oh, I'm unemployed again. Well, if I don't take this job, there's never gonna be another job. You know, it's easy to get in that hamster wheel mindset that even though we've done it for so long and you feel like that's. I can't logically support that. That's true. But it could be. Yeah, you Know, are they going to find out? Are they going to realize that? Oh, no.

[Michelle Obama]

It's like, Don Cheadle's a bum.

[Don Cheadle]

You're actually a bum. Yeah. You're never getting another job.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

So old Hollywood producer Cheadle, he's a bum.

[Don Cheadle]

He's a bum.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

He's a guy, you know, on the left.

[Don Cheadle]

He's been snowing us for years. Thousands of them.

[Michelle Obama]

He's old.

[Don Cheadle]

So old.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Is he older than the sun, that cheetah,

[Michelle Obama]

My friend.

[Don Cheadle]

Thank you. So, yeah, we'll see. We'll see. One of the six jobs that's coming up. I'll. Or two I'll probably do.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Don Cheadle]

But I won't talk about them right now.

[Michelle Obama]

Okay. All right, we'll have you back.

[Don Cheadle]

Okay. Yeah, we'll talk about them when I'm back. Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

What about you, little missy?

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

What about me? I am excited to finish this play. And then I also have a. Well, I'm the opposite. I guess I have some time free for the first time on the acting side in a really long time because Bear, as Jamie Leaker has announced, Bear will be ending.

[Don Cheadle]

Bear's over.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

And that's really cool and scary and exciting and. Yeah. And then I'm writing again and I'm working on a few things. Some have been announced, some have not.

[Don Cheadle]

But I'm not gonna do it. I won't announce anything.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Don't. I won't ruffle it. Secret keeping mode.

[Michelle Obama]

Don't ruffle them.

[Don Cheadle]

Can you do it?

[Michelle Obama]

Breaking news on imo.

[Don Cheadle]

Don't do it.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

But yeah, I'm excited about that and excited to kind of.

[Michelle Obama]

I just turned 30 and now you're old.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Now I'm. They've kicked me out of Young Hollyw.

[Don Cheadle]

You're now old Hollywood.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

I'm in old Hollywood now. But it's an interesting thing, like time, I think the just past few years have I really. And like friends who are older than me and not even by that much, who literally I would be like 28 and they would be like 31. They'd be like, be careful, you know, be careful about your time. Be careful about your energy. And I'd be like, I don't believe you.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah, it's endless. I have all the energy in the

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

world and then it's like, oh, my God, there's my body and it's tired and I do need to rest. And I also do need to recuperate in order to generate. Maybe the reserve was a lot deeper because it was just coming from a place of all this expression that it had in me, felt like I was able to do for so long.

[Michelle Obama]

And there's youth and there's free.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Oh my gosh.

[Michelle Obama]

It's like you just young.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

You got energy of it.

[Michelle Obama]

I mean, it's like now when I stand up, I have to stretch like my dog Sunny.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Okay.

[Michelle Obama]

Cause you just can't get up and walk.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

What do we do if she's stretching?

[Michelle Obama]

You need to take a break.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Great. Okay, so then maybe I.

[Don Cheadle]

And maybe some supplements.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Well, yeah, for sure. Yeah. I. I need you to leave more stretches.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah. Oh, stretch.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

He's limber.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, yes, he's believe in. That's my biggest thing. Yen, Yoga stretcher. Yeah, big stretcher.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

You like morning and night, that type of vibe, or do you?

[Michelle Obama]

I need to do more of it, but I at least do it like a 90 minute session once a week.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

That's amazing. Yeah. Okay.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, great.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

So that's good. That's something for me to log and maybe not do for a minute. You don't have to remember it.

[Michelle Obama]

Right? You don't have to for 90 minutes. But.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

But this has been making me need to be more physical in a way that's really great.

[Don Cheadle]

You gotta like the eight shows a week thing, it's like you really can't take it for granted. And you can.

[Michelle Obama]

It's a workout.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

I mean that's like a whole other podcast. I'm secretly very.

[Progressive Insurance Narrator]

Woo woo.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

And the things that we're talking just about like life and the things that I've learned in the past few years, I've. I've become really interested in our bodies as like, like, yeah, as just like instruments and the things that we are maybe not as connected to in like Western society that like that there's. I don't know that there's other civilizations that have been existing millennia, you know, and my father is a cancer survivor and when he was sick he got really into like Eastern medicine and saved me. And really genuinely that's like, he's the same. And now it's like we both are like, so like what's going on with your acupuncturist? You know, and he is somebody who, like, I think that was definitely a jolt for him. And I had one image of him, you know, of my childhood. And now he's the one who's like going on jogs and doing his little peloton and he does yoga and all these amazing things. And I really am like, wow, you are a lighter, happier person than maybe who I grew up with. Partly because I think you're like in communication with your body in a way that you were not. Because you just didn't do that. Yeah, you didn't do that.

[Don Cheadle]

It wasn't a part of my gosh.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

A man, a black man doing a down.

[Don Cheadle]

Get out of my face.

[Michelle Obama]

What's he doing? Did you lose something? Dead under that table. Can I help you find Derek?

[Don Cheadle]

Did you drop something?

[Michelle Obama]

Because not. You didn't mean to be on the floor. Black people sometimes don't even like to be on the floor. Why would I get on the floor? Why would I get on the floor?

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Why would I do that?

[Don Cheadle]

I didn't put these clothes on to get on the floor.

[Michelle Obama]

That's exactly.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

I actually really like the idea. I'll never forget moving to LA and meeting people where they're like, are you grounding? And I'm like, am I a 13 year old? What are you talking about? And they're like, no, take your shoes off and feel the earth. Like, I'm good, like I'm on it.

[Michelle Obama]

I was like, you might as well ask me to eat of a bunch bug.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Okay, you guys have a callback.

[Michelle Obama]

I really.

[Don Cheadle]

Well done.

[Michelle Obama]

Well done. And that means the bug has to stay in now.

[Don Cheadle]

Yes, you guys, I know.

[Michelle Obama]

That was fun.

[Don Cheadle]

He's like, I gotta.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Yeah, you're not cutting the R. Don't worry.

[Don Cheadle]

I'm so bugging right now.

[Michelle Obama]

It's a full bug. Oh my God. My God. Well, anyway, you two, it's been a delight. I proud of you as always. Love you to death. Loving you so completely. This role is you. Yeah, you got a little Catherine in you. I remember our first meeting. Yeah, we had a. I was thinking about it. I was thinking about it, you know, I'm sure Ayo was like. Cause we were like this young girl, she's got a thing. So we just reached out. It's like, girl, what you up to?

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

Nothing.

[Michelle Obama]

And she came over to the vineyard and I'm sure you were wondering, okay, I'm here. And she sat down and she. She was so like, yeah. And Barack and I were like, yeah, we know that, that, that girl.

[Progressive Insurance Narrator]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, we. We know a lot. That quirky, weird, genius, curiosity, fire. All of that, you know, fearlessness, all of that is. Is what's keeping you going and what is going to fuel you. You for many, many years to come. So that you are old person like me and Don on the other side of this table.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

I don't know if I will ever fortunate to get this away.

[Don Cheadle]

No, you won't. You won't. Especially if you keep bringing it up like that. You ain't going to make it.

[Michelle Obama]

You ain't going to make it.

[Don Cheadle]

July.

[Michelle Obama]

And it's like, I like that.

[Don Cheadle]

Of course that affects me. I'm not going to kick you off before I get mind used.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

That was genuinely also, like, maybe the most exciting 36 hours of my life. That was also the day after I threw a first pitch.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, you had a lot going on

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

for the Red, so that's great.

[Michelle Obama]

First pitch. And did we have lunch? Did we feed you? Did we? Yeah, it was really good.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

It was really good. It was a really beautiful day.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's good to see you blowing up. You have earned every bit of it. I wanna make sure that our audience goes to see Proof and on Broadway until July 19th. It is an amazing production. And to all the young people who are gonna benefit from this accessibility program, we wanna hear from you. You know, young folks who get to see Proof wanna hear about those conversations that people are having after the show. Cause you can see here, you will go in. You know, if you go with the family member, y' all gonna be talking for a couple of weeks.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

So one of my friends came with. Actually, he came with his mom and dad the night that you guys were there. And he was like. They were already talking about the play at intermission, and then they realized that the Obamas were there, and he was like. And so now it's, like, connected forever.

[Don Cheadle]

Forever.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. And you never know, we might be there at any moment in time.

[Don Cheadle]

Let's go.

[Michelle Obama]

We might drop by.

[Don Cheadle]

Beautiful.

[Michelle Obama]

Because I love Broadway. Yeah, exactly. So you never know.

[IO (Ayo Edebiri)]

There's a really special moment.

[Michelle Obama]

Of course, the coming one with notes, you know, it's like, for sure, for sure. But there are no notes. You guys have done it up.

[Don Cheadle]

Thank you.

[Michelle Obama]

Congratulations. Thanks for being here. Love you guys.

[Don Cheadle]

Sam,