You Need to Fight for Friendship with Julia Louis Dreyfus

Summary

Podcast Summary: IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson Episode: You Need to Fight for Friendship with Julia Louis Dreyfus
Release Date: July 9, 2025

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1. Introduction to Friendship as We Age

In this heartfelt episode of IMO, Michelle Obama and her brother, Craig Robinson, delve into the evolving dynamics of friendship in later stages of life. Joined by special guest Julia Louis-Dreyfus, the trio explores the challenges and triumphs of maintaining meaningful relationships as one grows older.

Key Quote:

• Michelle Obama (00:00): "This stage in life for me, for me personally, is the first time that I've been completely free."

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2. Personal Experiences and Insights

Michelle shares her personal journey of fostering and maintaining friendships, especially reflecting on her time in the White House where security measures created barriers to spontaneous interactions. She emphasizes the importance of intentionality in sustaining relationships.

Key Points:

• Isolation in High-Profile Positions: Michelle discusses how being in the White House made it difficult for friends to visit spontaneously, leading her to actively reach out and organize events to keep connections alive.
• Habit of Reaching Out: She highlights how developing routines and rituals with friends has been instrumental in maintaining these bonds over the years.

Key Quote:

• Michelle Obama (02:38): "We have habits, routines, rituals, you know, that we do amongst ourselves... that has helped us sustain our relationships."

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3. Guest Introduction: Julia Louis-Dreyfus and "Wiser Than Me"

Julia Louis-Dreyfus, acclaimed actress and host of the podcast "Wiser Than Me," joins the conversation to discuss her initiative to spotlight the lives and wisdom of older women. Inspired by Jane Fonda's documentary, Julia aims to amplify the voices of women often overlooked in their later years.

Key Quote:

• Julia Louis-Dreyfus (07:33): "I wanted to find a podcast that talks to those women. Of course, there wasn't one. So then I just started to do it, and it's really taken off."

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4. Addressing Listener's Question: Reframing Friendship in Later Life

The episode centers around a poignant listener question submitted by Andrea, who seeks advice on helping her 68-year-old mother, Sharon, rebuild her social network after relocating from Texas to North Carolina. Sharon is grappling with feelings of loneliness and fear of future friendship losses.

Key Points:

• Challenges of Relocation: Moving to a new community can disrupt established social structures, making it difficult to forge new friendships.
• Emotional Barriers: Sharon's fear of making new connections stems from past experiences of losing friends due to life changes.

Key Quote:

• Andrea (20:35): "She admitted she felt like she'd lost nearly every friend she'd ever made... She's feeling a brand new resistance to connecting with people."

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5. Strategies for Building and Maintaining Friendships

Michelle, Craig, and Julia offer practical strategies to help Sharon and listeners navigate the complexities of making new friends and sustaining existing relationships in later life.

Key Strategies:

• Get Involved in the Community: Engaging in local activities, such as joining a garden club or attending community events, can create opportunities to meet like-minded individuals.
• Intentionality: Building friendships requires deliberate effort, including planning, scheduling, and prioritizing social interactions.
• Shared Activities: Participating in group hobbies like tennis, cooking classes, or hiking can be effective ways to bond with others.
• Support from Partners: Involving spouses or partners in social activities can provide additional support and opportunities for connection.

Key Quotes:

• Julia Louis-Dreyfus (22:54): "Getting involved in community where you are, you will find your people."
• Michelle Obama (42:35): "Take some classes, go into community, join a gym. And as we get older, we should embrace the fact that we have more time."

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6. Dealing with Loss and Moving Forward

The conversation also touches on the inevitable aspect of losing friends, whether through death or growing apart, and how to cope with such losses while remaining open to new relationships.

Key Points:

• Grieving Process: Julia shares her personal experience of losing friends unexpectedly and the profound impact it had on her.
• Positive Loss: Sometimes, moving on from toxic relationships can be liberating and foster personal growth.
• Mental Shift: Embracing the idea that loss is a natural part of life can help mitigate the fear associated with building new friendships.

Key Quote:

• Michelle Obama (46:43): "There are definitely friendships that... just sort of ran their course, you know, that's okay."

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7. Final Thoughts and Encouragement

Michelle and Julia emphasize the importance of staying proactive in building and nurturing friendships, especially as societal norms shift towards greater isolation. They encourage listeners to view friendship-building as an essential and fulfilling part of life, rather than a burdensome task.

Key Quote:

• Michelle Obama (43:35): "This is the age when we're free."
• Julia Louis-Dreyfus (40:46): "We need each other. It is not a luxury. It's a necessity."

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Conclusion

This episode of IMO offers a compassionate and insightful exploration of the challenges and triumphs associated with maintaining friendships in later life. Through personal anecdotes and expert advice, Michelle Obama, Craig Robinson, and Julia Louis-Dreyfus provide listeners with actionable strategies to foster meaningful connections, navigate the fears of loss, and embrace the freedom that comes with age.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Michelle Obama (00:00): "This stage in life for me... is the first time that I've been completely free."
• Julia Louis-Dreyfus (10:51): "No is a complete answer."
• Michelle Obama (05:24): "A brain, would be excited about our next guest."
• Julia Louis-Dreyfus (22:54): "Getting involved in community where you are, you will find your people."
• Michelle Obama (43:35): "This is the age when we're free."
• Julia Louis-Dreyfus (40:46): "We need each other. It is not a luxury. It's a necessity."

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Note: This summary intentionally omits segments related to advertisements and non-content sections to focus solely on the valuable discussions and insights shared during the episode.

Transcript

[Michelle Obama]

This stage in life for me, for me personally, is the first time that I've been completely free.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, there's a real release where every.

[Michelle Obama]

Choice that I make in my life is not about my husband, not about his career, not about what my kids need or where they're going. It's totally about me. This episode is brought to you by pinesol and Chase Home Lending.

[Craig Robinson]

Hey, you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hi.

[Michelle Obama]

Craig Robinson. How's it going?

[Unknown Male Speaker]

It's going well, Mish.

[Craig Robinson]

How you doing?

[Michelle Obama]

I'm doing pretty good. I'm digging that aqua.

[Craig Robinson]

This is one of my favorite pieces, by the way.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, yeah, it looks like, you know, you'd wear that pulling up in some hotshot ride or something.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Yeah, well, I've been tooling around in my. In my Rivian R1s here in LA. Well, it's actually not. My Rivian has been kind enough to gift us with vehicles, but when I'm here, I've driven a loner that I'm just falling in love with it every single time I get in it. So. But listen, we've had a great conversation about friendship.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, yeah. Today. Today we're gonna talk about.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

But today we're gonna talk about friendships as we age. And I was finding it hard when I was sort of researching this topic and thinking about it being a guy in a committed relationship, I never thought that when you're in a committed relationship, there's the potential of still being lonely.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

Because of course, I still have little.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Kids at home, so I'm running around chasing them. But, you know, it's a phenomenon.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. And I think it's particularly true with women. Maybe it's the nature of men and women and how they sort of maneuver in the world. But I have a number of female friends in relationships who, but for their outside friendships, would perhaps feel lonely within their relationships. And I don't want to generalize, but their men's habits are different. Sometimes they don't want to chit chat. They don't want to catch up. So I have a lot of friends who, you know, they love their partners, but they find their friendships and relationships outside of that unit. But I don't know if you experience that among your friends.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

You know, I think what I perceive and what's actually happening now is making me think there is a gap there because I'm.

[Craig Robinson]

I'm like most.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

I'm like a guy. I'm the kind of guy who is assuming everything is going fine until somebody says, oh, you know what? My wife and I are getting divorced. Or, you Know, my wife's telling me she's lonely, and I don't know what to do. I haven't had that happen, but I can.

[Michelle Obama]

People. People can be lonely inside of very healthy relationships. You know, if you don't share the same hobbies in common, if you have different temperaments, even different life patterns. And throughout my life, especially now that I'm getting older, I work very hard to maintain my relationships with my friends, whether we live in the same city or not. Maybe living in the White House and being in a position that was pretty isolating. Right. You know, not too many people can walk up to my door and knock on it, say, just dropping by for a cup of tea. So as a result, people couldn't have our phone numbers. They couldn't. For security reasons. So there was a wall between me and my friends that was real. And as a result, I got into the habit of making sure that I was continuously reaching out, finding ways to bring people in, planning events, planning trips with my friends. Because absent me doing that work, it was just really hard for a friend to call me over those eight years and say, hey, girl, want to go to the movies? Or you want to go on a trip with me? But I found that that habit has served me well now that I'm in my 60s. And I can even foresee how beneficial that is as I get even older, because my friends and I, we just have a routine of how we connect no matter where we are in the world. We have habits, routines, rituals, you know, that we do amongst ourselves and even with our daughters as they get older, with our kids as they get older, that has helped us sustain our relationships. But a lot of people haven't invested that kind of time.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Yeah, and I've all.

[Craig Robinson]

I mean, you're so good at keeping.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Your friendships close and inviting people in. Well, we're gonna talk a lot about relatable relationship friendship questions today, and we've got a fantastic guest.

[Michelle Obama]

We do.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

We have both been excited about this. So I think anybody, I mean, with.

[Michelle Obama]

A brain, would be excited about our next guest.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

And I'm talking about Julia Louis Dreyfus, and she's an Emmy award winning actress and comedian known for her roles in Veep and Seinfeld, of course. But Julia is currently hosting a popular podcast, very popular podcast called Wiser Than Me. And I'm excited to hear about that too.

[Craig Robinson]

But I have so many a varied.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Number of questions that we might get off topic, but we'll have to rein it back in.

[Michelle Obama]

We'll have a fangirl in here.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

I'm really excited about that. So without any further ado, Julia, come join us. Oh, there she is. So happy you can be here.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm so happy to be here. I am so delighted to be here. And I was. I'm sure you don't remember this, Michelle, but I went to a Soul Cycle class with you.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, my gosh. I went through my Deep Soul Cycle.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You did? You were kind of an addict.

[Michelle Obama]

I was. I was, yeah, yeah, yeah. We went right around the White House.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's right.

[Michelle Obama]

So how did you find your Soul Cycle, and had you been doing Soul Cycle?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, I had never done it before. I do other things to work out, but I hadn't done Soul Cycle.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Didn't care for it, but I was happy to try it.

[Michelle Obama]

It's an acquired taste.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It is, in fact.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, it is.

[Craig Robinson]

I think she's the only one in.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Our family who like doing it.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, I went through. I'm like that with activities. You know, it's like potato chips. I can't just eat one. Once I, you know, link into something, I'm like, all in.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Do you like to hike?

[Michelle Obama]

I do, but I don't hike as much as I did just like, I don't do Soul Cycle as much. I've had to vary as I've gotten older, my workouts, because they mess up the body in certain ways.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So Soul Cycle, you really have to differentiate. Yeah, right.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

You gotta diversify.

[Craig Robinson]

So tell us about Wiser Than Me.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Are you having fun?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, it's really. You know, the genesis of it was that I saw this movie, this documentary with Jane Fonda about her life.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, yeah, you guys probably saw that one. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And I was so struck by the breadth of her life and profundity of. She'd been done so many different things. And it got me thinking about, wow, there's so many women out there that are older. I mean, at the time, she was 85, I believe, that are older, that have had these extraordinary lives and we're not hearing from them.

[Michelle Obama]

That's right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So I wanted. So I was like, I need to. Oh, I've gotta find a podcast that talks to those women. Of course, there wasn't one. So then I just started to do it, and it's really taken off. So it's nice. And it's an opportunity for talk about friendships. It's an opportunity. I've made some real friends doing this, including Jane, by the way. So we're doing a lot of sort of political, environmental activism together now. As a result of this, which is great.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. I think the concept is beautiful and it's necessary. We talk about this a lot, how women, as we age, we get pushed out of the picture. Yeah. It's incredible when we're, you know, as, you know, now that I'm 60.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

This is really the first time in my life where I feel completely me. And I can absolutely embrace my wisdom.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

I mean, because I think we, as women, we spend most of our lives saying, well, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. We qualify everything and we apologize. We apologize. We don't want to put our opinions on the table because maybe we're wrong. We're always hedging, you know, because in the back of our minds, we weren't raised with the certainty of maleness. That, you know, kind of the confidence that young men in their 30s have, which they haven't earned. They just have it. We don't start feeling that and owning that until our 50s and 60s, at a time when we start to be treated as invisible in society. And the notion that you are capturing that wisdom in a systematic way is powerful.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. I think it's critical for both. For the culture generally. It's not just for women, it's for men, frankly. We're just missing an opportunity. I mean, these women are. I think of them as being on the front lines of life and they can report back to us what they've seen and what we should or should not be doing. And as people. Not as. Just as female people, but as people. So I am thrilled to do it. It's a lot of work because I wanna come to the table really well versed in what they've done and who they are. And we're talking to scientists and novelists and everybody. And I'm learning a lot as I go. Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

This may be an unfair question. What's one of the most fascinating things you've learned in this process from one of these women? Or a couple of things that you would say have stuck with you?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No is a complete answer. Is something that stayed with me. I'm sure you've heard that before, but it sure is a meaningful sentence. And particularly as women, we are sort of. Our culture indoctrinates us to put a caveat onto a no. I know I should, but I can't. You know, all of that kind of stuff.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Women, we have so many landmines and barriers and don'ts and limitations. It's, you know, I mean, Craig, you're the guy at the table, but I think it's important for all guys listening, especially men raising daughters, to realize that difference, you know, and that, that thing that in inadvertently as you are loving and raising these beautiful girls. There are so many rules that make.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Us small baked in without our knowing it, you know, and I wish I could, I mean I, well I, you know, I remember people saying oh well, she's a female doctor as opposed to just she's a doctor, you know.

[Craig Robinson]

No, this is good.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

We have to remember this for the next time you hear to talk about that topic. But we're here to talk about friendship and loneliness as older adults.

[Michelle Obama]

As we get older in life.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

As we get older in life. And we have a really good question today talking about sort of being an adult and having this very vibrant friend life that all of a sudden is not there anymore. And I found this topic really interesting and I think now's a good time to have Natalie, our producer read the question and then we can dive in. We can dive in.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, Natalie.

[Craig Robinson]

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[Unknown Male Speaker]

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[Craig Robinson]

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[Unknown Male Speaker]

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[Craig Robinson]

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[Andrea]

Hi Michelle and Craig My name is Andrea and I'm 40 years old. My mom, Sharon, is 68 years old and has always had a meaningful and wide circle of friends. Friends from high school and college and friends she made while she and my dad raised my sister and me. She also had an extensive social network through my dad's colleagues. He was a college professor at a university in Texas and the campus brought them many close friendships, friends they'd share dinner parties with, join on weekend trips, and seen nearly every morning for the run club on campus. My mom was also fortunate to be close with her own co workers at her job in the college admissions office. But a little over a year ago my dad retired and they moved back to North Carolina where they both grew up. My sister and I stayed in Texas and I think I saw this coming. But when I talked to my mom recently, she admitted she felt like she'd lost nearly every friend she'd ever made. I know she'd already experienced some strain on her friendships in Texas, whether due to retirements or or illness or divorce. But this big move means all the social structures that once supported her friendships have vanished and with them her connection to her cherished communities. So my question is, how can my mom reframe her thinking around friendship during this pretty radically new chapter in her own life? Whether that be gaining enthusiasm for making new friends in North Carolina or or maintaining connections to her old friends without the help of built in community and networks. As her daughter, I am especially concerned with helping her to answer this question because of a fear she revealed to me that I really hadn't seen coming. She told me she's actually feeling a brand new resistance to connecting with people because she knows that eventually more life change will just lead to more friendship loss. How can I help my mom in her new feelings of loneliness and maybe reinvigorate her desire to make new friends in this brand new stage of life. Thanks for your thoughts, Andrea.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

There's a lot to unpack in that question and can I dive in please? I mean, there is so much going on there. She's obviously this is a woman who wrote that, right?

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. A daughter.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right? She is obviously a very devoted daughter. So so to begin with, it brings up the idea of getting older and starting to parent your own parents.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Which I've certainly been through. Am going through, and I know you guys have as well. And that's an amazing fliparoo that you never anticipate when you're younger. It doesn't even occur to you that all of a sudden she's worried about her mom making friends. Isn't it usually your mom's worried about you making heads?

[Michelle Obama]

Exactly, exactly.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So that's an incredible thing, but I see it as very surmountable. You know, we recently lost our home in this horrible LA fire, and so our community is gone. Gone where? We raised our children. And so I'm sort of wrestling with the same thing. And what I'm finding is that if the focus is not necessarily meeting a friend, which has kind of a. I'm not saying it's a bad focus, but.

[Michelle Obama]

It'S a different stressor. It feels a little oppressive, right?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. It's like, yeah, you're putting pressure on yourself. And maybe if the focus is. And this is what I'm trying to do, getting involved in community where you are, you will find your people. That's what I think. Certainly that's what I'm trying to do as we kind of work our way through this moment. And my own parents recently went through the same thing that this woman's parents went through. That is to say they moved into a new community and it was hard for them, but particularly my mom became involved in this garden community. And I mean, there's something about taking action.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That can open up doors.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, yeah. I think you're absolutely right. One of the other things I hear in this question is that makes me kind of sad, but it's something to tie into, is that the listener's mother has expressed a fear and a hesitation around the possibility of building new community because of the potential for loss.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

And I think that's worth her daughter, their family trying to unpack a little bit. Right. Because it is completely right that building community is the focus. But if you're afraid of that, if the very thought of, you know, doing that work and taking that kind of action makes you afraid because you could lose something.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, it's like, well, then you're. You could be stuck. And, you know, it's part of friendship is taking that risk of loss. And it. And it doesn't change because we're older. In fact, that's always the case with friendship.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's always the case with friendship. But I think specifically specific to aging, you will lose folks.

[Michelle Obama]

Exactly.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You are gonna lose them naturally. That's just.

[Michelle Obama]

That's a part of it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's a part of it, and it stinks. I know. And I'm not quite there yet, but we're headed there, God willing, in a weird way. But maybe doing a deep dive into that fear is probably worth it for her mom to do.

[Michelle Obama]

I had to, probably, in my position as first lady, just as an object point for the listening mother. I mean, one could have argued that there was every reason in the world for me in that position, me and my husband, to be afraid of making new friends. Right?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Very good point. Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

I mean, you sort of think about it. In fact, I know one of the things that Craig said when Barack ran and won, you may want to share.

[Craig Robinson]

That was no new friends.

[Michelle Obama]

Right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You said, don't make new friends.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

I said that to Misha and Barack.

[Craig Robinson]

I was like, watch out.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

And I couldn't have been more wrong.

[Michelle Obama]

Right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, but that's fascinating because the automatic.

[Michelle Obama]

Feeling, which would be natural is you got to watch who you associate with in this position.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You don't know what their intentions are.

[Michelle Obama]

Precisely. You know, so I understand the sentiment of the warning. And as my big brother, you know, and we. We came from a already big established community. Right. So it wasn't like we were going into this thing without a support. Right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

But the difference for me was that I still had little kids. Right. I mean, our. My girls were 10 and 7, moving into a new neighborhood, a new community. And my whole goal was to normalize their experience, to not make them feel like these odd little kids with Secret Service that were outsiders, which meant that I couldn't. I didn't have the luxury of saying no new friends. Right. Because when you're raising your kids, you have to be a part of a bigger community that they're in.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Otherwise you're screwed.

[Michelle Obama]

Otherwise, you're screwed. It was exactly the way it was. So that push, that necessity was the absolute best thing. You know, leaning into that fear, into that caution. It was the best thing that I did for myself and for my family. And my point to the listener is that I learned is that it was absolutely worth it. And it was probably a very scary experience because it was not only we not only faced the risk of loss, disappointment, but we could have met people who were meant, us no good, who we couldn't trust, who, you know, gossiped about us, who, you know, sold stories to. There were many things that could have gone Wrong.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Michelle Obama]

But the truth is, is that most people are really good folks. Yeah. You know, even when you're in a high powered position, most people are open to the new.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And I would say too, in that circumstance, you're there, you're sort of looking at the community where your children are going to school. You need to get to know these parents.

[Andrea]

Exactly.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

As a parent, you must. And so your goal is not necessarily going in it to make friends. Your goal is to understand where they are. And then out of that comes relationships that you could count on.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's pretty interesting, actually. It's really. It's like fame on steroids.

[Michelle Obama]

Exactly.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It really is. Because I had a. I've had that on a much smaller scale. Same kind. You know, when you're a famous person, it's weird getting out there sometimes and you. And people approach you and you're not sure what their intentions are about. So if there's a way to. I don't know what, through an action, through a community, through where there's sort of common ground, as there was at school, for example. I mean, I don't know how your husband did it.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, he was dragged into it along with me because he also had the barrier of no time. Right. I mean, but in the face of that, because of my focus and determination and his interest, it was like, no, you got to go to parent teacher conference. And he wanted to go.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

It's like, even if you don't have to go, you have to go.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, you have to get the school normalized to you being the type of engaged parent that you are before election night.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's right.

[Michelle Obama]

And you were the father that went to parent teacher conference.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Michelle Obama]

You were the father that would coach your girls basketball game league. And he did.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know he did.

[Michelle Obama]

But all of this is to say to our listener for her mother is it's worth the risk. People will be waiting out there with open arms. People are kinder, even though it doesn't feel that way these days.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

I've been in our country and I've been in every angle of it, and it doesn't change overnight. And the vast majority of American people are good people.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. And they want to connect.

[Michelle Obama]

They want to connect.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And connection is the answer. The connection answer.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Yeah, the answer. I love that. I love that. I also want to address a little bit because Andrea is trying to help Sharon navigate this to your point. The daughter becoming the mother.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Tell me about it.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

The husband is still there and I.

[Michelle Obama]

Think I totally lost him.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

I know, I know, I know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Sorry.

[Craig Robinson]

That's why I'm here.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Sorry, sir.

[Michelle Obama]

She's not a widow.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

She's not a widow.

[Michelle Obama]

Although it sort of sounds like she is.

[Craig Robinson]

But that's my point. That's my point.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

I mean, this community shouldn't just be her community.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Tell me about it.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

He should be trying to help her.

[Michelle Obama]

Way to bring the male voice.

[Craig Robinson]

And I'm just saying this because when.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

We were talking about this, this was such a foreign concept to me as a man. As a man, just the kind of guy that I am that I would want. First, I would want to know that my wife is suffering from this loneliness because if we up and moved to North Carolina, I'd be trying to find somebody to play hoops with or golf.

[Craig Robinson]

With or go to the cigar store.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

With or, you know, whatever. I wouldn't be trying to help her get inserted in the community. But I think that should be a team effort as opposed to just, it's.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Good to have a partner and she has a partner, so it's time for her partner to stay.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Step up.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

This episode of IMO is brought to you by Indeed. Are you starting to think about the next step in your career? Or maybe you're thinking about making a career change. Indeed is the only place you need to actually find better work. Just update your Indeed profile with your skills, experience and salary expectations to start finding better work. You'll automatically be matched with jobs that match what you're looking for. The skills I've learned as a player have followed me throughout my career. From a business person to a coach to an executive in sports. It all came down to the same three things. Hard work, discipline, and the ability to work with a lot of different personalities. You don't have to have it all figured out. It's all about getting yourself in the game. So when better opportunities come your way, you're ready to jump in. Update your Indeed profile and get matched with better work. Today. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Financial Security isn't just about the here and now. It's about the future. That's why we love what Progressive is doing to help people attain and maintain and build wealth through home ownership. For over 80 years, Progressive has led with the belief that insurance should do more than just protect. It should propel people forward. Their commitment to not only helping more first generation homeowners stay protected, but also support communities through Progressive's down payment assistance program, the up payment program, which will help drive real impact making the dream of home ownership More attainable for everyone. You know, my wife Kelly and I are currently in the process of redoing our bathroom. We just started out and haven't done the demolition yet. But we know that this will add to the value of our house. So thank you, Progressive, for helping families plan ahead and for sponsoring our show. Visit progressive.com OpenTheHouse to learn more. This might be a hot take, but you shouldn't need a premium subscription to get a premium job. You shouldn't have to network to find work. And most importantly, you shouldn't have to scroll through endless amounts of humble brags just to see who's hiring. That's what's so great about an Indeed profile. It lets you find better work based on what you know, not who you know. Add your skills, certifications, and experience to your Indeed profile to get matched with jobs that are a better fit for you. For each section you add to your profile, you'll be twice as likely to be noticed by a hiring manager ready to find better work. Let an Indeed profile match you with your next job today. So that's some advice that we could.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Give Andrea is talk to your dad.

[Craig Robinson]

Talk to your dad.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Talk to your dad.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Get your dad involved in this, too.

[Michelle Obama]

Where's dad? Yeah, is he, you know, is he sitting in the chair doing the same thing, like, over and over and over, or is he trying to think of ways for them to creatively connect together and then in their community? Great, great point. Yeah, Craig. Well, I appreciate it, Robinson. So do you think that you in. In your marriage, have you.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Well, I'm based on.

[Craig Robinson]

We're not at a point, but think ahead.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Think ahead.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, I'm thinking. All right, I'll think ahead because we're.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Not at a point now.

[Michelle Obama]

We're so busy around the corner when the kids are going to be gone.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Get old enough to go to college.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How old are the youngest ones again?

[Craig Robinson]

15 and 13. So we got six years. Six years. And six years goes by like that.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Will be empty nesters.

[Craig Robinson]

And our plan is to figure out.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

The most optimal place to be where we can enjoy them the most.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yep. That's smart.

[Craig Robinson]

But we're not gonna.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

We're not planning on jettisoning our friends because we're empty nesters.

[Craig Robinson]

And I've always thought you all do.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

A great job of that with your friends because your girls are grown and you intentionally get together with your friends on a regular basis.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. You have to be intentional.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I do the same thing. But I have advice for you for when your kids, when the younger kids leave in five years, not six, by the way.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Five and a half.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, you're right.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

You're right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But anyway, what I want to tell you is you just make sure that after they leave, all the sheets on their bed are high quality sheets, and that bed is the most comfortable bed they ever slept in in their life. And they'll always come back.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, gosh. Yeah, we call them.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm actually kidding you. That's true.

[Michelle Obama]

No, no, we, Barack and I, we are all about creating what we call the attractive nuisance, you know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Thank you.

[Michelle Obama]

We just. We want to make it so that you want to be back here.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

And we're start. They're old enough now, right. Because there's that period when they just leave and they're in their early 20s and they're just like, bye, see ya. We're living our lives and we're so happy to be sleeping on a dirty mattress in college. And they're just now getting to the point where they hang around just a little couple of days longer because the tub is clean, right?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, that's right.

[Michelle Obama]

And they're bath salts.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

They're bath salts. They smell good. There's a lot of stuff in their fridge.

[Michelle Obama]

That's right. That's right. That's what they say. And there's food we can actually eat.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

I like the sheets idea, though.

[Craig Robinson]

That's a tricky one because they wouldn't.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Necessarily figure that out.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

They get used to the foulness.

[Michelle Obama]

That's right.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Well, Julia, I want to ask you a question. What are some of the strategies that you use to keep your friends? Who are your friends?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, I've got friends from different sections of my life. Right. We travel a lot together. And my group of friends from elementary school, we try to have a reunion once a year somewhere. We all get together and it's so funny. You become. It's like you're 12 again. We start howling, laughing over the dumbest things you ever heard of in your life. And, um, so I make. Particularly nowadays, I'm making a real effort to have adventures with these people.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, travel is a good thing. We do a lot of that stuff. You know, joining crafts, taking up hobbies with your friends, trying some, you know, so you don't.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What hobbies have you taken up? What crafts?

[Michelle Obama]

Well, you know, we've had. I've had girlfriends who've organized some Zumba classes, hip hop classes that we said to do more of, you know, so I'm saying to our listeners, Sharon, some of the ideas, it's like you can get your girls together from around the country to try a new thing. They can come and visit you, and you set up a cooking class, or you learn how to knit, or you take up tennis. Right. Now, several of my girlfriends have gotten into playing tennis, and we don't always get to play together, but when we are together, now that there are many who have taken lessons and taken up the sport, we'll go find a court, we'll hit, you know, and that has become a bonding opportunity.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

By the way, you know, tennis, I heard, is supposed to be so good for aging. Did you hear that?

[Michelle Obama]

I've heard. Yeah. I've heard it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It has something to do with. It's the mind, eye coordination. I'm not sure exactly. And also the lateral movement as well as the pounding.

[Michelle Obama]

Yep.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But. And I can't say anything more than that. But anyway, do it.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Just do it.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, the advice is that, you know, learning something new, correct your friends or with a new group of people, that's another. If we're talking about ideas that we have for building community, new community, or sustaining old community, that's, you know, I mean, a lot of my friends, we just figure out something new. We want to learn, we want to try, and we do it together. It's more fun to do it together. But intentionality is, as you mentioned, Julia, is a word for the day. And if Sharon goes to her new place and she sits in her fear and her loneliness and she says. And she bemoans what she lost.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

And doesn't think about ways of viewing this as a new opportunity to stay open and to meet new people and not to focus on the possibility of loss. There are so many ways to break out, to break out and not be alone.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's right.

[Michelle Obama]

I think we live in a culture nowadays, and it's not just older people, but unfortunately, younger folks who have, you know, lived through Covid. They've gotten too attached to their phones. They live online. I mean, this is why studies are showing that we're seeing unprecedented levels of loneliness and anxiety, because we've gotten out of the habit of building friends, building community, or the understanding that as humans, that's something that we need.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

We need each other.

[Michelle Obama]

It is not a luxury.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, right. Exactly. It's a necessity.

[Michelle Obama]

Right, right. Our phones are not a necessity. Our phones are a luxury. And they cannot replace the thing that community and friendship provides to us, regardless of the age, but especially as we get older, you know, and because we know that we're gonna experience loss, that. That's the. That's the end of the story, you know?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

And, you know, I would want Sharon to keep that muscle of community building active.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

Because it is a muscle. You know, if you get out of the habit of starting a new. Learning something new, you know, that's what's ahead of me. I'm 61, and all I'm thinking about in the future is what new things am I gonna learn?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What are you gonna learn?

[Michelle Obama]

You know, right now I'm focused on tennis. You know, I don't know. Maybe I'll go back to the piano one day. It was an instrument that I started to play as a little girl. Haven't touched it since then. But maybe. Maybe I'll find the time to start taking lessons.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You know, I'm doing tennis, too. My husband gave me tennis lessons for my birthday, so I'm going to do that. But. And I'm taking French lessons now.

[Michelle Obama]

Okay. Yeah. From scratch. Had you ever seen. I know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I do know some French, but I'm trying to, like, take it up a level now. That's my goal. Oh, I hope I can do it.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. But all these new activities for Sharon are an opportunity, especially if you do them in groups. If you sign up for a tennis clinic, you're gonna meet somebody. Totally. I would just say don't do things in isolation, in solo.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, take some classes, go into community, join a gym. And as we get older, we should embrace the fact that we have more time. You know, I mean, we aren't parenting our kids anymore. They are parenting us. We're not worrying about whether they're getting home on time or whether they did their homework. I mean, this stage in life, for me, for me personally, is the first time that I've been completely free.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. There's a real release where every choice.

[Michelle Obama]

That I make in my life is not about my husband, not about his career, not about what my kids need or where they're going. It's totally about me and Sharon. You know, if she thinks about it like that, wow. She's got a new freedom. She's starting over in a new city. There's so much to learn and to see and to do. It's like, this is. This is when we start living, ladies.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

This is the age when we're free.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, you.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

You both have talked about maintaining friendships. Have either of you. Julia, have you or mish, have you lost any friends at this stage? Have you? And if so, what are some strategies on how to bounce back from that?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, it sort of depends on what the circumstances are. I mean, I've lost friends. I've had a couple friends die. And that has been devastating because it was just truly unfair of the universe. So I'd like to lodge a complaint, but. So that's just a lot of grief to reconcile. And grief is sort of a separate. I mean, grief from actual loss of life is its own thing. But then I've also lost friends because we sort of moved on.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And there's something kind of freeing about that. You know, couple of relationships that were a little bit toxic, had me doubting myself too much and head games and stuff. And there was a moment in which it was like, oh. Oh, yeah, right. I don't have to do this anymore.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And how about you?

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, for sure. For sure. Both. Both. And, you know, and I've experienced loss of friends throughout my life. I mean, one of my best friends from. From college died suddenly of lymphoma, you know, at the tender age of 20. In our 20s. You know, and, you know, that's a. Like you said, that's a different kind of loss than losing your grandmother or losing, you know, someone in the.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

It's not the natural order. Order. Yeah. And I think for me, that loss woke me up at a time in life when I was just starting to define myself as a young adult and a young professional. That was the time in my life where I thought, well, what am I doing with my life? Right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Michelle Obama]

She lost hers. And there was no reason. She was one of the sweetest, kindest people that I ever knew. So it made me think, well, do I really wanna finish out this life on the 47th floor as an associate in a big corporate law firm?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Sounds fabulous.

[Michelle Obama]

Is that my fate? Is that why I'm left here? And she, you know, and the answer to that was, nah, there's gotta be something more, you know, and what am I afraid of? And that. That decision, as a result of that loss, opened my eyes to. Not the nonprofit world, city government, public service, you know, so that loss turned out to be one of the things that provided me with the foundation of who I am.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

But there are definitely the friendships that, like you said, Julia, just sort of ran their course, you know, that's okay. And as I age, I am more grateful every day of the friendships that I've invested in and maintained. They are my lifeblood. And I love my husband, and we are dear friends, but we don't do the same things all the time. We have different interests, and we have.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And I Think that's healthy?

[Michelle Obama]

It is completely healthy that way. And we have wonderful times apart, and we travel differently, and he'll go off with his friends in golf, and I'll hike a mountain, which he's not gonna do, you know? Definitely not. So I would hope that for Sharon and her husband, that it becomes even more important with him alive that they continue to build together and separately.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

By the way, they're still young. 68.

[Michelle Obama]

68. Really?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Come on. Not even 78.

[Michelle Obama]

Now is not the time to tap out.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, do not tap out too much.

[Michelle Obama]

This is just the beginning, you know, it only gets better.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Well, just for clarity for Andrea.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

Yes.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Let's give Andrea some strategies to take back to Sharon. And the biggest one I'm hearing is your community.

[Craig Robinson]

Right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I actually think she should start by talking to her dad.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Okay. That was on my list too, but.

[Michelle Obama]

That was down for bring dad into this.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Bring D into this situation. This is not her burden alone. Yeah. And. But community. Community. Community.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Okay.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Surely. Surely she has some interests that they can. She was a. Cultivate.

[Michelle Obama]

Correct. Do I get that right?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That I think her husband was.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

The husband is the professor.

[Michelle Obama]

She was a professional.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

She was a professional, and she worked at the university, so.

[Michelle Obama]

So she's. She's got interest. The second thing I would say is intentionality. It's like friendship and community doesn't happen on its own. I don't care who you are or, you know, how wonderful a person you are, whether you're shy or outgoing. Friendship requires intentionality.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's right.

[Michelle Obama]

Planning, scheduling, prioritizing. All of it has to be a part of it. It does take work.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Say yes. Say yes.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Say yes.

[Michelle Obama]

Say yes.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Well, you know, this has been really helpful for me, and I hope it's helpful for Andrea in Sharon.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Sure. Why, yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Thank you, Julia. It's great spending time with you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's so nice you spend time.

[Michelle Obama]

A wise woman.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wisesh.

[Craig Robinson]

Wiser than most.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Thank you, guys.

[Michelle Obama]

Thank you.

[Damona Hoffman]

Are you single and ready to mingle? Do you need to dtr? With your fwb? Whatever you're looking for, I can help you find it. I'm Damona Hoffman, host of the Dates and Mates podcast. I'm also the official love expert of the Drew Barrymore show and Excess Daily with Mario Lopez. So join me each week as I cover topics from dating with anxiety to Google sleuthing to couples communication with guests like Dr. Drew, Laverne Cox, and Rachel Lindsay. That's dates and mates with me, Damona Hoffman. Listen to season 12 wherever you get your podcasts.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

On NPR's Wild Card podcast, Michelle Obama.

[Michelle Obama]

Says she's reinventing herself. I don't know if my ambition has ever fully been able to actualize itself. I think I'm now at a stage in my life where all my choices are mine.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm Rachel Martin. Listen to Wildcard for a conversation about.

[Michelle Obama]

Balancing family and personal growth with Michelle Obama.