You Need to Learn to Say No (Even to an Inauguration) with Taraji P. Henson

Summary

Podcast Summary: "You Need to Learn to Say No (Even to an Inauguration) with Taraji P. Henson"

Podcast Information:

• Title: IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson
• Host/Author: Higher Ground
• Episode: You Need to Learn to Say No (Even to an Inauguration) with Taraji P. Henson
• Release Date: April 23, 2025

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Introduction and Guest Introduction

Michelle Obama and her brother, Craig Robinson, warmly welcome viewers to this episode of IMO. They express excitement about having the talented Taraji P. Henson as their special guest. The hosts share light-hearted banter, establishing a relaxed and engaging atmosphere.

Michelle Obama [02:24]: "But our guest today is none other than Taraji P. Henson."

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Taraji P. Henson’s Journey and Career

Taraji delves into her early struggles and determination to carve out a successful career in acting despite setbacks. She shares her experience of not being accepted into the prestigious Duke Ellington School of the Arts, which initially led her to explore cosmetology. Her passion for hair and beauty became not just a profession but a lifeline during her college years.

Taraji P. Henson [09:05]: "TPH was born, out of my own necessity. For me, it was about the education of scalp because I knew women were getting installs wearing wigs, but I was like, I don't think they understand that you still have to take care of your hair if it's in an install."

Michelle highlights Taraji’s resilience and entrepreneurial spirit, noting how Taraji transformed her passion into a successful business venture with TPH by Taraji.

Michelle Obama [10:12]: "That is, you know, a beautiful thing to have a black daddy so much in a very challenging and non-traditional career."

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Balancing Personal Life and Professional Demands

Taraji opens up about the challenges of balancing a demanding career with personal life, particularly as a single mother. She discusses the immense pressure of managing multiple roles and the toll it took on her mental and physical well-being.

Taraji P. Henson [15:28]: "I wish I had the luxury of just doing one film a year. You know, but that's not the case for me."

Michelle and Craig resonate with Taraji’s experiences, reflecting on their own upbringing and the work ethic instilled in them by their parents.

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The Importance of Mental Health and Therapy

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on mental health, especially within the Black community. Taraji shares her personal journey with therapy, motivated by her desire to support her son and honor her late father. She emphasizes the critical need for more therapists of color to address the unique mental health challenges faced by African Americans.

Taraji P. Henson [26:33]: "We started looking at the numbers, and only like 7% of the therapists, clinicians, and psychiatrists were of color. I was like, this is because our children don't know to go into this career, to even study this in college."

Michelle adds her perspective on how societal expectations and trauma impact Black women, stressing the need for open conversations about mental health.

Michelle Obama [24:08]: "We do not articulate as Black women our pain, because it's almost like nobody ever gave us permission to do that."

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Strategies for Saying No and Setting Boundaries

The core theme of the episode revolves around the importance of setting boundaries and the power of saying no. Taraji shares her journey from being a "yes girl" to embracing the word "no" as a tool for self-preservation and empowerment.

Taraji P. Henson [32:41]: "No is so powerful because that is you taking up for yourself, right? No, I don't feel like coming to dinner. No, I don't wanna do that role."

Michelle relates to the struggle of constantly striving to meet others' expectations, highlighting the internal conflict of feeling never "enough."

Michelle Obama [32:44]: "I like you. I have believed in therapy my whole life. ... there's always that feeling... I had to convince myself that I had done enough."

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Teaching the Next Generation

Both Michelle and Taraji discuss the importance of modeling healthy boundaries for younger generations. Michelle speaks about teaching her daughters the art of saying no and overcoming the ingrained habit of overachieving to prove worth.

Michelle Obama [46:36]: "I am trying now that they are 23 and 26, talk to them about my menopause brain. ... practice the art of saying no."

Taraji emphasizes the significance of introducing therapy and open dialogue early in life to break the cycle of unspoken trauma and relentless striving.

Taraji P. Henson [52:34]: "I started looking for help for us. And something has to be done here. That's when I started the work in the mental health."

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Leisure, Personal Joy, and Coping Mechanisms

Transitioning to lighter topics, Taraji shares her personal hobbies and coping mechanisms, such as her love for salon work and spending time with her family. These activities serve as her sanctuary and provide essential relief from the stresses of her professional life.

Taraji P. Henson [53:40]: "I was called the quarantine queen because I was learning, teaching myself how to do nails. ... anytime I'm in distress, you will find me in my salon."

Michelle discusses the importance of leisure and genuine human connections as essential components of mental well-being.

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Final Thoughts and Takeaways

As the episode concludes, Michelle, Craig, and Taraji recap the key strategies for managing burnout and setting healthy boundaries:

1. Learn to Say No: Prioritize personal well-being over others’ expectations.
2. Seek Therapy: Embrace mental health support to navigate personal and professional challenges.
3. Set Boundaries: Create space for self-care to maintain emotional and physical health.
4. Model Healthy Behaviors: Teach and exemplify these practices for the next generation.

Michelle Obama [67:10]: "There will be backlash to your no... once you start to feel comfortable saying no, things are gonna reconfigure."

Taraji P. Henson [69:08]: "It takes work. It just doesn't go, oh, I did it today. Some days are easier than others."

Conclusion

This episode of IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson, featuring Taraji P. Henson, offers a profound exploration of the necessity of setting boundaries and the transformative power of saying no. Through personal anecdotes and thoughtful discussions, the trio provides valuable insights and actionable advice for listeners striving to balance their personal and professional lives while maintaining their mental and emotional well-being.

Transcript

[Michelle Obama]

What happened that eight years that we were in the White House? What did that do to me internally, my soul. We made it through. We got out alive. I hope we made the country proud. My girls, thank God, are whole. But what happened to me?

[Taraji P. Henson]

Right?

[Michelle Obama]

Right. This episode is brought to you by pinesol and theraflu. Craig Malcolm Robinson.

[Craig Robinson]

Michelle. Lavon Robins.

[Michelle Obama]

Not Robinson. Obama.

[Craig Robinson]

Obama.

[Michelle Obama]

What? 30 years. How's it going?

[Craig Robinson]

It's going well. It's going well. How you doing?

[Michelle Obama]

Well, yeah. Yeah. Happy to be here with you. We've got a great show coming up.

[Craig Robinson]

I'm so excited.

[Michelle Obama]

But we are here in LA and you doing your thing.

[Craig Robinson]

I'm doing my thing. Staying in an Airbnb again. And I tell you, every time I stay in one, it makes me want to stay in one wherever I go, you know, we're going. The boys have a tournament coming up in a month or so, and rather than staying in a hotel, we're gonna get an Airbnb so we can do all of our own cooking and washing of dirty uniforms.

[Michelle Obama]

Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

So I'm really excited.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

You're just becoming an Airbnb aficionado.

[Craig Robinson]

I am, I am. I am quite impressed. I absolutely have enjoyed my time because, you know, I was always Mr. Hotel, you, points and all that stuff.

[Michelle Obama]

You seem younger than you are. That makes you more up to date than you know your age portends. You're living like a young person out there.

[Craig Robinson]

I know, I know.

[Michelle Obama]

But Airbnb is for everyone of all ages, and you were living proof of that.

[Craig Robinson]

I am, I am. Well, how excited are we?

[Michelle Obama]

Very, very excited.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, folks, I'm gonna get right to our guest. Cause we wanna bring her up. This is one of those. Because this is one of those. And I am a fan. And I've got goosebumps.

[Michelle Obama]

Let me just say my brother has been giddy, little silly giddy all day. And he even wore a whole suit for this one because he's usually in jeans. It's like there's usually. We don't know what's going on down there, but you can. But your top matches your pants today. That means we got somebody special here with us.

[Craig Robinson]

See what happens when you try and clean yourself up? Your sister takes full advantage. But our guest today is none other than Taraji P. Henson.

[Michelle Obama]

My girl.

[Craig Robinson]

And she is an Academy Award nominated actor, producer, and number one New York Times bestselling author, mental health advocate and entrepreneur.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, yeah. Owning her own stuff.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. She's starring in Tyler Perry's Straw on Netflix. Which I watched the trailer and I was crying on the trailer.

[Michelle Obama]

I know, I know. Taraji, she'll do that.

[Craig Robinson]

She does it to you. She does it to you.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. I can't wait for that to come out.

[Craig Robinson]

I know, I know. She is also the founder of the Boris L. Henson foundation, named after her father, which works to enhance access to mental health services within black communities. She has also launched TPH by Taraji, a line of spa inspired products, and is the strategic advisor for seven daughters. Moscato. Moscato.

[Michelle Obama]

I got me a bottle. Ooh, I might. I had two bottles. I may let you try one.

[Craig Robinson]

Will you let me try one?

[Michelle Obama]

I would love to, if you act right.

[Craig Robinson]

But without any further ado, Taraji, please come out and join us.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Are you kidding me?

[Craig Robinson]

Good to see you.

[Michelle Obama]

Hi, babe.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Thank you. I love your hair.

[Michelle Obama]

Thank you. Love yours, too.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Thank you.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, my goodness.

[Craig Robinson]

It took me a while to do mine, so.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, yeah. Looking good, Looking good. Now, the last time we saw one another was at the final White House party. Yes. In the last. Yes, the last night.

[Taraji P. Henson]

And it was the last night.

[Michelle Obama]

It was. Was it the very last night or was it one of the last parties? I can't remember.

[Taraji P. Henson]

So I think it was. Yeah, I think it was. But I just never. I just never forget. I was leaving and I thought it was pretty late. It was. I'm leaving because I'm tired. My feet hurt. I have on socks.

[Michelle Obama]

And I remember you saying that because that was you, like, girl, my feet hurt.

[Craig Robinson]

You start to walk into the car.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Yes, because my feet. I danced out of my shoes and Tom Hanks was walking across the floor like this. I said, he's still partying. I will never forget that.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, we are thrilled, beyond thrilled to have you here. Let me just fangirl a little bit. Cause I didn't get to do that at the party when I saw you. But we are huge fans.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Thank you.

[Michelle Obama]

And you. Oh, man. You just bring every part of you to the work that you do. And I will never forget my reaction. And I know a lot of actors like you who do so many things don't wanna get pigeonholed into one role. But let me just say, Cookie on Empire, I mean, I got on the phone to people when you showed up on screen, because I was like, this is a real character. I mean, this is like, I felt all of who Cookie was. And I called people on the phone. I was like, you have got to watch Empire. This is a different kind of series that's coming on. And it was because of your performance.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Thank you.

[Michelle Obama]

And you know, and then to see the trailer of Straw, which is, you know, the story of black women at the edge of everything. And just the trailer alone, as Craig said, brings you to tears. Moving. I guess I just wanna know where does all that come from in that little bitty body of yours?

[Taraji P. Henson]

Well, I am trained. I went to Howard. But you know, as an actor, sometimes, you know, sharing a bit of, you know, the character's joy or pain, mine might bleed in a little bit. And I've been through some things in life. You know, it wasn't easy growing up, you know, in the hood or whatever, but you know, I made it out.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Taraji P. Henson]

You know, but you know, life will throw curve balls at you. And it's not always, you know, I know people look at celebrities and they're like, oh, you got it made. Because you're but like the great guru Biggie Small says, more money, more problems.

[Craig Robinson]

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

[Taraji P. Henson]

You know, you think your problems go away because you finally made it or whatever. And it's like, no, you get more problems, more expensive problems. But again, you know, the training and just being true to the character. And I think as actors what we do is very spiritual because we use our bodies as vessels to tell a character's truth. And so I can't judge that character.

[Craig Robinson]

Right.

[Taraji P. Henson]

A lot of times I do. Like I judged Cookie at first, I was like, oh my God, she's a horrible. It was hard not to. But the job of the actor is to show the why. And when you show the why, that's when you gain empathy.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Cause there's always a why.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, you know, I'm a trained athlete, so I'm different. But when you said that, you know, I'm trained, you know, I never think of that with non athletes and that is, it's a real skill.

[Taraji P. Henson]

It is.

[Craig Robinson]

But I'm just sitting here getting nervous because every time I watch you on the screen I feel something emotionally. And I just want to thank you for that because it is a. I mean just, I'm thinking about, you know, Benjamin Button. I'm thinking about Proud Mary. I mean, Proud Mary. Well, you know, I still have a 15 year old and a 13 year old.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Oh wow.

[Craig Robinson]

So that, that, that hit me. You know, I will let my kids watch R rated movies if you're in them.

[Michelle Obama]

I want to know some of the why of Taraji, the real woman, you know. Cause you are doing a little bit of everything now. You know, you are not just acting and winning, but you're building an empire of your own. Yes. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because you just had a major win personally on the business side, gaining more control over your own stuff. Can you talk a bit about your company?

[Taraji P. Henson]

Yes. Well, tph. I don't know if a lot of people may or may not know this about me, but I didn't get accepted into Duke Ellington School of Fine arts in Washington, D.C. and the next thing, my next passion was cosmetology. I love doing hair and nails and makeup, but I missed. You had to enroll in the ninth grade. I missed it by a year. And I just think it was. God, you know, I wasn't supposed to go down that path, but that's always been a passion of mine. That's how I fed myself in college, you know. Cause I didn't have money, and so I would do $20 wet sets because I had a hooded dryer out of my dorm room.

[Michelle Obama]

And you went to Howard.

[Taraji P. Henson]

And I went to Howard. But my first, I started at North Carolina A and T because. Because I really didn't think I could act.

[Michelle Obama]

That's right.

[Taraji P. Henson]

And then my father let me fall flat on my face because math is not. I'm not mathematically wired.

[Michelle Obama]

Me either, girl.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Me an artist. I am an artist to the bone. And so when I failed pre calc, my dad was like, that's what you get now. You get back up here and go to Howard and you enroll and you get back into acting. And that's how.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, so you were running from that?

[Craig Robinson]

I ran from it.

[Michelle Obama]

Wow.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Yeah. When I ran from it, I was.

[Craig Robinson]

I thought you were saying your dad.

[Taraji P. Henson]

No, he won academic. No, he knew that I was a performer. He was telling me when I was little that I would win an Oscar. You're gonna be one of the greatest actors alive. And because I'd been hearing that so much from him, when I did not get accepted into Duke Ellington, I didn't know how to take that, you know.

[Michelle Obama]

Take that failure on the chin and keep moving.

[Taraji P. Henson]

13 or what was that? 12. You believe that, you go, oh, that must mean I can' sure. You know?

[Michelle Obama]

Well, and having raised my children in Washington, we've done a lot of work with the Duke Ellington school. And to put it in perspective, it's like the Whitney Young, the magnet school that I went to, you know, well funded school, you know, that just pushes out a lot of amazing artists all over the place. So I could imagine you grew up with that being your, you know, my north star.

[Taraji P. Henson]

So I just thought that I just Thought I didn't have the talent. And so imagine me going back to Howard. I felt out of sorts. And then finally when I got back into the groove and I found my footing, everybody was like, well, you know, you went to Duke Ellington. And I was like, no, I didn't.

[Michelle Obama]

No, I didn't.

[Taraji P. Henson]

They didn't accept me.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, that is, you know, a beautiful thing to have a black daddy, you know, believe in his baby so much in a very challenging and non traditional career.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, what a blessing that. That man being that wind beneath your wings.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Yeah, it was. Because, you know, in the day of, you should be a doctor or you need to be a lawyer. He really saw my gift. So. But like I said, I was doing $20 wet sets, so hair and cosmetology has always been in me. And I remember when I first got to Hollywood and I started working and I couldn't afford weaves when I was in college. So when I got to Hollywood, I heard about, you know, women. I lost my edges, and I didn't want to lose my edges, and I started working.

[Michelle Obama]

And see, we have that issue too, Craig.

[Craig Robinson]

You see what she did?

[Taraji P. Henson]

I'm sorry, I didn't.

[Craig Robinson]

She said, we have that too. And then she looks up in my head, wow, that's. That's what happens. That's what happens. That's what I'm doing.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Maybe if you'd have found tph.

[Michelle Obama]

There you go.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Or you would have your edges.

[Michelle Obama]

I'm sorry, Taraji. I mean, I just had to give it to my brother.

[Craig Robinson]

It was perfect timing, the older brother. You know that, right?

[Taraji P. Henson]

She's making up for all the times when you picked on her when she was little. I'm sure.

[Michelle Obama]

But in the spirit of saving our edges.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Yeah. So I just remember I got my first and I was like, well, this is great for protecting my hair, but how do I get to my hair? How do I take care of my hair while God install? And so I created this concoction. And I remember going on vacation with a girlfriend of mine and her daughter. They had protective styles and they complained about itchy scalp. But I said, well, use what I use. And I put it together, and they came out of the bathroom. I was like, oh, my God, where do I get this? This is amazing. And I was like, give me a minute. And so that's how TPH was born, out of my own necessity. And for me, it was about the education of scalp because I knew women were getting installs wearing wigs, but I was like, I don't Think they understand that you still have to take care of your hair if it's in an install. So that's when I was like, this is a great way for me to enter into the beauty industry. So that's how TPH was born, out of my own necessity.

[Michelle Obama]

And you now own it.

[Taraji P. Henson]

I own it. I finally. I bought it back. It's mine, it's mine, it's mine. I have a lot of work to do, but I am ready. I'm ready for it, because it's mine. I feel like Cookie. I own my company, Lucious.

[Michelle Obama]

There you go. There you go. And, you know, that's where it begins. So now you a businesswoman. Yes. You adding that onto your plate.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

But you've been doing all that and raising a strong black man. I want to know, how do you manage it all?

[Taraji P. Henson]

It wasn't easy. It's never easy. You know, as life, you have ups and downs. You have dark days, you have light days, you have gray areas. And for me, it was just learning how to take care of myself. Because as women, we take care of so much, and we take care of the family, and a lot of times, we put ourselves last. And it took me a while to understand that if I don't pour into myself, I have nothing to give. And I've reached those points a lot in my life, trying to do so much. And, you know, I come from the grind, grind, grind. You know, that grinding will kill you, you know, And I would work so hard and then just feel burnt out, you know, and it made me question sometimes, is this even still what I wanna do?

[Craig Robinson]

Wow.

[Taraji P. Henson]

You know, because of the exhaustion.

[Craig Robinson]

Acting.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Yes. Also, too. Having to do so many jobs because the money, the math. Wasn't mathing.

[Craig Robinson]

Oh, yes.

[Taraji P. Henson]

I wish I had the luxury of just doing one film a year.

[Craig Robinson]

Right, right.

[Taraji P. Henson]

You know, but that's not the case for me.

[Craig Robinson]

And that's not the case for many black actors, I would imagine. Right.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Yeah, it's not.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Taraji P. Henson]

So when you see us working a lot, it's because we kind of have to.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

You know.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, you know, another story I think about is how mom and dad trained us to work hard.

[Michelle Obama]

Mm.

[Craig Robinson]

You remember the chores?

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, yeah. We had chores very early on. Very early on. That's another thing. I think, you know, one of the best things that our parents did for us is real work. Real work. Real work around the house.

[Craig Robinson]

And what I mean by real work is I had. My chores were to clean the bathroom.

[Michelle Obama]

I cleaned the bathroom. What are you talking about?

[Craig Robinson]

We alternated we alternated weeks.

[Michelle Obama]

Okay. Cause I loved cleaning the bathroom and I didn't.

[Craig Robinson]

But I had to do it. Mom wanted us both to know how to have a clean bathroom. But my every, every weekend job was cleaning those stairs.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, that's right. Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

We had 14 stairs. Notice I remember how many there were.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, you had to. Yeah. That went from.

[Craig Robinson]

Went from our apartment down to our aunt. Great Aunt Robbie's apartment. And this is what I remember about Saturday morning. You remember that tin pot that we used to have? We had a tin pot, a pot now that used to be on the stove, which was now used for cleaning. And you put a little soap, dish soap in it, and then you put Pine Sol.

[Michelle Obama]

Ooh, Nothing like Pine Sol.

[Craig Robinson]

And there was nothing like that smell like when you came home from school and mom had been mopping and you could smell the pine sauce. It was usually Monday. Cause she had laundry on Monday. You come home from school and it smells like, ah, new house.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

And I have to say that I still, to this day, when I'm mopping, if we don't have that pine oil smell.

[Michelle Obama]

That's it.

[Craig Robinson]

That's it, isn't it? And here we are in adulthood, and they're a partner of ours on this podcast.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, an appropriate partner.

[Craig Robinson]

How about it? So when you get a chance out there, visit pinesol.com and find out where you can shop for your Pine Sol. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Theraflu as a product that was created to provide effective and comforting relief when you're fighting the flu or a cold. Theraflu firmly believes that the ability to rest and recover when sick should be a right, not a privilege. You know, I think back to the time when my dad was working for the city of Chicago as a stationary fireman, and it seemed to us that he never missed work and he never got sick. But what we realized is that my dad didn't want to take his paid sick time because he wasn't sure if he would keep his job by doing that. And my sister and I realized that my dad was. Would be sick, but he just thugged through. Was a difficult thing for him to deal with then. And unfortunately, so many Americans still face this pressure today. 27 million Americans still lack paid sick time, which causes them to have to choose between losing a day's pay and getting the proper rest they need in order to get better. And what's worse, this all too common issue disproportionately impacts lower income individuals. Theraflu created the Rest and Recover Fund, which has committed nearly $1 million to provide micro grants to workers to help offset the financial burden of taking an unpaid sick day. It's been making a big impact, and Theraflu is committed to keeping the fight going as everyone deserves. The right to rest and recover. Learn more or help someone apply for the fund at Right to Recover. Well, Taraji, what you just said about being burnt out, I hear my sister talk about that. Now, I didn't hear my mom talk about that, but I want to dig deeper into that a bit. Where does that start? Do you think you were trained to take on all of these things? Or did you develop that because you just.

[Michelle Obama]

You're out of necessity.

[Craig Robinson]

Out of necessity to be excellent. Because we have to be so much more. We have to be so much better than most to get where we want to be. Or is it innate just in our culture? Because where we have been because of slavery, and it was really the black woman who had to protect the family. Cause the black man was getting sold all over the place. Where do you think that comes from? From you. And then I want to hear where it comes from. From me.

[Taraji P. Henson]

I think it's a culmination of all of it. Because there is, you know, things that happen in slavery. That's still in our DNA. That's still a part of who we are.

[Craig Robinson]

Right.

[Taraji P. Henson]

You know, so I can't run from that. That's my makeup. Watching my mother do it, watching my grandmother do it, you know, it's just what I'm used to. Unlearning, unlearning that trauma is where I am now, you know, but for so long, it was just. This is what you do, you know, I watched my mother work two jobs, you know, and to put food on the table and pay the rent for our little apartment, you know. And so I grew up going, that's what you have to do. You gotta work however many jobs and grind hard to make it happen. I was a single mother, so I didn't have time to sit down. I remember one day and this, like, Marcel was like 4 years old. I was so tired, I wanted to cry. Like, you know, I don't think I wouldn't wish being a single parent on my worst enemy, literally. Because, you know, think about when you're exhausted and it's like, the baby's crying. Oh, can you go get him, honey? There was no honey that I was honey. So If I worked 12 hours and.

[Michelle Obama]

I called you and you're still honey.

[Taraji P. Henson]

I was still honey. I still. If the Baby's sick. Everything fell on me, you know, And I just remember one day, I just. I wanted to. I was on the sofa, and I just wanted to give up. But that's not in me either. You know, I think those thoughts. But then my ancestors go, girl, you better get up.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, and that's. That's the. You know, the part of what you said that you never heard mom complain about it. I think that that's part of the. Part of the issue, part of the trauma. You know, when we grow up, our grandmothers, you know, Grandma Lavonne, Grandma Rebecca, you know, these were all women. All black women had to work. Yep. Our mother was fortunate. She didn't work until I went to high school. But that was a choice that she and my father made, because. So we lived off of one salary, and we made huge sacrif. Because I think my mother understood that if she was gonna be the kind of mother she wanted to be, that we would forego living a good life, that we live in a little bitty apartment and just make ends meet. But that was a rare thing. But you've never heard these women complain. Cause it wasn't what it was, just the way life was. And I think that that's part of our trauma, too, because we grew up with women who weren't voicing the pain and the burden. They made it look easy. And when you make stuff look easy, people assume that you must like this. It's okay with you. Right.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Right.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, we don't articulate as black women our pain, because it's almost like nobody ever gave us permission to do that.

[Taraji P. Henson]

And does anyone care?

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, there's. Will they care if that part.

[Craig Robinson]

If we knew, I think we would care if we knew.

[Michelle Obama]

If we knew or, you know. Yeah. And we have to ask ourselves, the men in our lives is, you know, why wait to be asked? You know, it seems like what we go through is pretty obvious. I mean, maybe we're not complaining, but we're actually living life out loud. You know, you see us carrying these babies. You see us working a job and coming home and managing. Getting food on the table and handling doctor's appointments. And this is, you know, if you've got a partner.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Right.

[Michelle Obama]

I think some of us feel like, why should we have to ask?

[Taraji P. Henson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, it seems apparent. And as black women, sometimes we, you know, there is that underlying thing we're socialized to believe from very early on, that we don't deserve any better, you.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Know, or that this is. This is life for us. It's gonna be hard. Like, I grew up just expecting it, you know, I did. And, you know, it wasn't until, like, my son, he's growing up, there's no dad around. I lost my father in 06. His father was murdered two years prior to that. And so it's like, who do I turn to? You know, and then as, you know, young boys, as he's growing up, the rose colored glasses come off and he's starting to see life for a young black man. And that was difficult. And I'm not a black man, so how do I help him maneuver through this? And, you know, I was like, we need help. And it was time to look for therapy, which I never shunned therapy because my father was a Vietnam vet and he always talked about his struggles openly. And so I was like, well, then we need help. And so I started looking for help for us. And when I couldn't find anyone who looked like us. Cause now I gotta get my son to open up to someone and he's not gonna feel right if the person doesn't feel familiar. And I was like, something has to be done here. That's when I launched the Forest Lawrence Henson foundation in honor of my father. Because I know in our community, we just do not talk about mental health. We don't.

[Michelle Obama]

We do not.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Because we are demon. We are chastised. It's looked upon as weak, you know.

[Michelle Obama]

And I give it to God.

[Taraji P. Henson]

We give it to God.

[Michelle Obama]

And that's an important. Spirituality is an important.

[Taraji P. Henson]

But God gifted humans to be therapists to help other humans. So it go hand in hand. You need both. So I was like, this is a real problem. And we started looking at the numbers, and only like 7% of the therapists, clinicians and psychiatrists were of color. I was like, this is because our children don't know to go into this career, to even study this in college. And so I was like, we have to do something about this. That's when I started the work in the mental health. That's when I started checking myself, like, whoa, you have been operating dysfunctionally for a while. So a lot of the stuff I'm doing now is undoing. It's a lot of undoing.

[Michelle Obama]

But it's.

[Taraji P. Henson]

I'm grateful because I feel better.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, yeah.

[Taraji P. Henson]

You know, and then I can help this generation coming behind to not fall into the same, you know, traps that I did and believing the same things that, you know, we just didn't know otherwise to believe.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, I think that's why it's important for us at tables like this, for women like us who do have a platform to talk openly about the challenge that. Challenges that we face not because we are complaining, which we don't wanna ever be complaining, but because we need to change. We need to turn that cycle on its head and we have to talk about our stresses openly. You know, and also, as black women, we are so easily labeled as angry and bitter. And let me tell you, some of the most hurtful stuff that I experienced, you know, entering this life of public service at the heights that we entered into was during my husband's presidential campaign. And just me telling the truth of who we were, you know. You know, just humanizing him as a man, saying he's, you know, he's a great man, but he's not perfect. You know, he's got his foibles and his flaws, trying to humanize him. The first thing that some female journalist said is that I was bitter, I was emasculating him just by sort of trying to tell the truth about what life is. Right. And then you get labeled as angry because you talk forcefully or passionately about something, even if it's in the context of great joy and pride, that the. That the first label they put on us as black women is that we are angry. And the irony is, yeah, I am probably less liked than many of my white female friends. I see that.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Less liked, Less light.

[Michelle Obama]

Not liked. Light. L I g H T Because I say this a lot. I mean, I see the difference in some of my white female friends. I see a lightness, an ability to be in the world and see what's going on, but still be not as burdened about it as I think I am. I think that what I see happen in the news, the assault on immigration rights, the, you know, the challenges that face our community, the inequality. I think it burns at me in a different way.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Because it affects you.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Taraji P. Henson]

It affects your children.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Taraji P. Henson]

It affects you.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. So imagine, you know, we wake up every day just carrying that, you know, even if it doesn't directly affect me, sometimes I just have to stop reading the paper.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

So that I can stop thinking about all that's wrong sometimes. I don't know about you, Taraji, I can't stop thinking about it. Right.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Yeah. That's why I have to. I'm not, as, you know, I'm not on social media that much. You know, as you get older, you realize what's important and how to protect your peace. And honestly, social media, we're not supposed to feel all of the emotions that we feel in that short span of growth. One minute you're laughing. The next one you're angry. The next minute you want to cry. That's not even. That's not right.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Yeah, something is wrong about that. But, you know, a lot of times that's where you get the news or you see something disturbing. And I'm an empath, so I take things on. I stopped watching the news a long time ago. I had to, because sometimes I feel like, are they trying to scare us? Like, is there anything good happening out there? You know? So I had to stop to protect my peace.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, speaking of taking care of ourselves. And we like to think of IMO as sort of therapy for the folks who aren't quite there yet. And in that vein, I'd love to get to our listener question from Shantay from North Carolina.

[Michelle Obama]

We're not even halfway through the year, and as a black woman, I feel burned out. It's not just the world and politics, but it's also the expectations of myself and others as it pertains to my personal life, like career, family issues at my job, obligations I feel pressured into and more. I don't know you personally, but I imagine you might have been here before. Any advice? Mm.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Better learn the word no.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, I know. I know this. Both. This hits both of you in a different way or in a similar way.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, you embarked upon an interesting journey to find your piece recently. Can you share some of your tools for trying to find that peace?

[Taraji P. Henson]

Well, I'll tell you this. No is my favorite word. Yeah, no. No is. And I found out how powerful no is, especially in this town. This is a town of yes. Yes men. Yes, I'll do it. Yes, whatever you need. Just make me a star, you know? Make me rich, you know? But no is so powerful because that is you taking up for yourself, right? No, I don't feel like coming to dinner. No, I don't wanna do that role. I don't. That doesn't serve a purpose for me. I know the check is great. Maybe that's someone else's blessing. You know what I mean? And the relief that I get from saying no, because I know I'm protecting my piece. I know I'm doing a good thing. Because for a while, I was the yes girl, the people pleaser, you know? And I just couldn't do it anymore. Cause it wasn't servicing me, and I wasn't feeling fulfilled, because why am I doing this? I've had to cut people out of my life. It's okay. You weigh me down, you know, I can't carry your load and mine, you know, family members even.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, sorry.

[Taraji P. Henson]

And you don't learn that. It's unfortunate you don't learn it until you get older.

[Michelle Obama]

That's right.

[Taraji P. Henson]

You know. Cause in your 20s, you just. I'm ready to do it all. Even in your 30s still. But as I be, you know, I'll say about 45, I was like, yeah, I'm not gonna do that anymore. That doesn't serve me. That doesn't make me happy inside. And if I say yes, that person's happy. But then I'm left to carry something that doesn't feel comfortable to me.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. How have you shared this with your young son? And I say young. Cause 30's still young.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Yeah, very young.

[Craig Robinson]

Do you encourage him to therapy? Because I'll tell you, you know how black men are with their. We ain't really feeling the therapy thing.

[Taraji P. Henson]

No, he's not like that at all.

[Craig Robinson]

Oh, that's great. Because we need to educate our young black men that therapy is a good thing.

[Taraji P. Henson]

We go to therapy together. You think of mother, son, relationship is easy without a dad.

[Michelle Obama]

That's right. It's not.

[Taraji P. Henson]

All relationships need work, you know, even the relationships with my girlfriends, you know, we get in our little stuff sometimes, but, you know, we're in a place where we're all in therapy.

[Craig Robinson]

This episode of IMO is brought to you by. Indeed, finding the right job or candidate can be a game changer. I know that when it comes to finding talent, it's not about who you know or where you went to school. It's about the skills you have. And whether that's on the court or in a company, that's what should matter most. Because when someone is hired for what they have to offer, the world works better. Individual abilities are important. When recruiting players for your team, you look for scoring, shooting, rebounding, defending, etc. As the world's largest job site, with millions of job seekers looking for work as well as employers offering, it Indeed isn't just dedicated to matching people with any job. It's about matching people with the right opportunities and challenging the status quo of hiring. It's about prioritizing skills and being transparent about what you'll be doing, what you'll be paid, and what the workplace will be like. On this podcast, we're all about keeping things real and being honest. And that's also how Indeed views helping the world work better. Indeed is the place to find what you need, visit Indeed.com and start finding better work.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Welcome back.

[Craig Robinson]

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[Michelle Obama]

You know, when I hear you talk about the practice, what I'll call the practice of no, because you're absolutely right. And I know that everyone struggles with disappointing people with trying to set boundaries. But I particularly relate to, you know, what you were saying about it takes you a while before you, maybe as a woman, as a black woman, where we feel comfortable saying no. I was sitting here thinking, well, why is that? And why was that for me? Because this is something that I am working on right now. You Know, I like you. I have believed in therapy my whole life. You know, done couples therapy with my husband. Both my girls are. They believe in therapy this generation, thankfully. I think our children are way more open to it. They understand the importance of self help and all of that. I also sort of realized that, you know, even Michelle Obama, I am still trying to tell myself that I am doing enough, right? Because there's always that feeling, I think we practice that striving, because in order to be successful, I always felt like I had to be smarter, faster, work harder, because somebody was gonna doubt me. Somebody was already telling me why I couldn't do something before they knew me or I even tried. So you get in. And I don't think this is unique to just women of color. I don't think it's just unique to men. But when you get in that habit of that constant striving and constant proving that you know it's enough, it makes us overachievers, but you don't ever turn that off. And at 60, I was still. I had to convince myself that I had done enough. After all that I had done in the world, I still felt a guilt, right? Struggling with, like, deep guilt that maybe, maybe I needed to do a little bit more. So I'm at this stage in life where I have to define my life on my terms for the first time. So what are those terms? And going to therapy just to work all that out. Like, what happened that eight years that we were in the White House? What did that do to me internally? My soul, we made it through. We got out alive. I hope we made the country proud. My girls, thank God, are whole. But what happened to me.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Right, right, right.

[Michelle Obama]

And going through therapy, you know, is getting me to look at the fact that maybe finally I'm good enough, right? And unlearning some of those messages that I've been saying to myself, and then trying to actively practice something different, to rewire those neurons in my head that make me keep pushing and keep striving. And so practicing no, in a very different way, intentionally. But then this is what makes it hard. Because my decision to skip the inauguration, what people don't realize, or my decision to make choices at the beginning of this year that suited me were met with such ridicule and criticism. Like people couldn't believe that I was saying no for any other reason, that they had to assume that my marriage was falling apart. You know, it's like while I'm here, really trying to own my life and intentionally practice making the choice that was right for me. And it took everything in my power to not do the thing that was right or that was. That was perceived as right, but do the thing that was right for me. That was a hard thing for me to do. I had to basically trick myself out of it. And it started with. With not having anything to wear. I mean, I had affirmatively. Cause I'm always prepared for any funeral, anything. I walk around with the right dress. I travel with clothes just in case something pops off. So I was like, if I'm not going to do this thing, I gotta tell my team. I don't even wanna have a dress ready. Right. Because it's so easy to just say, let me do the right thing.

[Taraji P. Henson]

But then you become a shock absorber. And that's what women are. They're shock absorbers. And that's exhausting. And it is not healthy. It is not healthy. You've had to be shock absorbers for your husband, for your children, for your mom, for your family, your loved ones, because of where you were sitting in the public eye. That's not fair to you. When do you ever get to live? For you, I. I applaud you. I'm happy that you are taking care of yourself in the way that you need to.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

You know, I've been talking to Misha about this, and opting out might be. That's a great prognosis or a great suggestion or strategy for folks who are feeling the way you feeling the way.

[Taraji P. Henson]

We'Re talking about here, because you can't keep pushing through. That's detrimental. That could end very bad because you're not paying attention. I mean, I had a girlfriend one time, she was taking on so much, she didn't even realize she spilled hot grease on her chest.

[Craig Robinson]

Wow.

[Taraji P. Henson]

She just disfigured her entire chest. Doing too much. I mean. I mean, physically, it's impossible. You have to stop and go, whoa, what's happening with me? You know, I have to check out. I'm sorry, everyone. I have to check out for my own safety and sanity.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Taraji P. Henson]

And it's a hard thing to do. But you must. You must. I don't know if that's sending the kids away for summer. I used to get on my mom because that last day of school, my bag was in the trunk and she was driving me down South Carolina. Right. I.

[Michelle Obama]

Now you understand.

[Taraji P. Henson]

I totally get it. I understand. That woman needed a break. And I was a lot. As a kid, I was very rambunctious, probably undiagnosed adhd, but here we are.

[Michelle Obama]

Found a way to turn lips.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Exactly.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Taraji P. Henson]

But like you're saying you're just learning. I'm just learning. It's something that you have to do. And hopefully, Shantae, you will get this from hearing from me and from Queen Michelle that you have to take time for yourself. In spite of making people happy, at some point, you have to make yourself happy.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Taraji P. Henson]

It's that simple.

[Michelle Obama]

And one of the ways I started thinking about this, you know. Cause this is the habit. It's like maybe if I'm. Maybe I'm still working on being able to do things just solely for myself and being okay with that. I'm still working on it through therapy and conversations like this and talking to my friends.

[Craig Robinson]

But.

[Michelle Obama]

But I'm still thinking about the example I'm setting for my daughters. Right. So I am trying now that they are 23 and 26, talk to them about my menopause brain. I'm like, how old are they? Is what he's referring to. I want them to start practicing now the art of saying no. Because I see it in them, you know, pleasing, excelling, not wanting to take anything for granted. Always showing gratitude. Right. Feeling like they're enough right now. Right. It's a practice.

[Taraji P. Henson]

It is.

[Michelle Obama]

Right. It's a muscle that you have to build. Because if you don't constantly build it, you don't develop it. And I think we suffered. Cause it's almost like we started training late in life to build that muscle. Right. I am just now starting to build it. Right. I want our daughters. I want the young women out there. And I know we're talking about women of color, but we're talking about women, and we're talking about all people who take on too much. I mean, we can identify and relate to our why as black women, but I don't presume that other people aren't dealing with these same struggles.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Absolutely.

[Michelle Obama]

Right. So I want my girls to start practicing different strategies for saying no. Right. I don't want them to. Because if I'm showing up at this stage in my life and they are seeing me, still wonder whether I deserve to say no, what does that teach them? If I, after all that I've done in this world, if I'm still showing them that I have to keep. I still have to show people that I love my country, that I'm doing the right thing, that I'm always setting, going high all the time, even in the face of a lot of hypocrisy and contradiction. Right. All I'm Doing is keeping that crazy bar that our mothers and grandmothers set for us. So I'm trying to teach them just like, you know, Shantae, you gotta start practicing your nose. So you build that muscle.

[Taraji P. Henson]

The sooner the better.

[Michelle Obama]

The sooner the better. And here's the thing, what I've realized in practicing. No. A little bit. People can handle. No, they really can.

[Taraji P. Henson]

They have no choice.

[Michelle Obama]

That's right.

[Taraji P. Henson]

They have no choice, really.

[Michelle Obama]

And we're not all that important. You know, the world doesn't. It stops spinning because I said no to your event. They usually just move on to the next thing, Right?

[Taraji P. Henson]

Yes, absolutely.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, so, you know, life goes on, you know, and if we stop carrying the load, maybe somebody. We set it down, somebody will pick it up.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Absolutely.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, somebody will pick it up.

[Taraji P. Henson]

I just celebrated. We. My family just celebrated my grandmother's 101 birthday.

[Craig Robinson]

Congratulations.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Thank you. And. And this woman who raised eight of her own children, one niece, raised nine children, was married for 61 years before my grandfather passed away. I see her living her life finally.

[Michelle Obama]

You know what I mean?

[Taraji P. Henson]

And I think that's.

[Michelle Obama]

What does that look like when you say, what does that look like at 101?

[Taraji P. Henson]

Okay. So. Well, she's been with me to the Oscars. She's been with me to the Emmys twice. She's come out here. She's seen every house that I've owned out here in la. She's traveled. She's been on cruises. And she. Not only she prepares for the next day, not only does she look forward to the next day, she prepares for it.

[Craig Robinson]

I love that.

[Taraji P. Henson]

And she was like, what y'all gonna do for my birthday? She loves to celebrate, and she loves to bring people together and to have a good. I see her living for herself finally. You know, she gets. It's literally about what she wants to do.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Taraji P. Henson]

And I know that's why she's still here. It's like a second birth.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. And we don't want to have to wait till we're 100.

[Taraji P. Henson]

No, we don't.

[Michelle Obama]

To do that. Or 61. To do it.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Yeah. Or 55.

[Michelle Obama]

Right.

[Taraji P. Henson]

But say, I don't know how old you are, but you better start saying no.

[Craig Robinson]

I love that. So. So now let's think back to. So what? You know, now you go back to your younger selves. Besides just saying, you gotta say no earlier. What are you telling your younger self so that you can start this work earlier?

[Taraji P. Henson]

I wish I had known about therapy younger.

[Craig Robinson]

Okay.

[Taraji P. Henson]

I didn't find that until late 40s, 50s.

[Craig Robinson]

Okay. Okay.

[Taraji P. Henson]

I didn't. I wish I had known about therapy earlier. I mean, I knew, but not only kind of I didn't know, but I couldn't afford it. Yeah, really couldn't afford.

[Craig Robinson]

And what kind of strategies are you learning that we can help Shanta with or that have helped you?

[Michelle Obama]

One of the things I heard about, that I thought about you, Taraji, is that you play a lot. Tell us about you got a playroom.

[Taraji P. Henson]

I have a play. I always. Okay, so when I grew up, my mom couldn't afford a lot of this stuff. Remember the catalogs you would get?

[Michelle Obama]

The Oaks catalog.

[Taraji P. Henson]

We would go in, rip pages, circle.

[Michelle Obama]

Exactly.

[Taraji P. Henson]

So I always.

[Craig Robinson]

Bathroom reading for us.

[Michelle Obama]

Yes, yes.

[Taraji P. Henson]

I loved when we got those big catalogs. And I would go in there and I would circle and I would always promise myself, I don't care how old you get, but you're gonna be successful. And when you do, make sure you have your little girl's room. That's what I used to call it.

[Craig Robinson]

Okay.

[Taraji P. Henson]

And in that room was gonna be all the things that my heart desired. You know, back then it was dolls and the things that in the toy book. But as I got older, it became the salon. And in the salon is where I play. I have doll head, I have prosthetic hands where I practice doing nails. And during the pandemic, they called me the quarantine queen because I was learning, teaching myself how to do nails. I was teaching myself how to cut and color hair. And that's where I would go. And anytime I'm in distress, you will find me in my salon.

[Craig Robinson]

Wow. And what you're doing is doing what you love doing for yourself.

[Taraji P. Henson]

For myself. People think it's a little creepy cause all the doll heads are looking at.

[Michelle Obama]

You when you walk in.

[Taraji P. Henson]

But it's my happy place.

[Michelle Obama]

It makes sense.

[Craig Robinson]

It makes sense. This episode is brought to you by Rivian and their fully electric full sized SUVs and pickups that are designed for all of life's adventures. The folks at Rivian lent me an R1S to drive around while I'm here in LA. And it has been awesome. You know, I'm 6'six and there is plenty of legroom and headroom for a guy like me. In addition, there's also great cargo space for my luggage. So learn more right [e-mail] this episode of the Imo podcast is brought to you by BetterHelp. How many times a day do you compare yourself to others or wish your life looked like someone else's. We all do it sometimes because it's easy to envy friends lives on social media when you only see the good part. But you know what they say, comparison is the thief of joy and in reality, nobody has it all together. Therapy can help you focus on what you want instead of what others have, like that career goal you set your sights on, or that relationship you want to grow, or that daily habit you want to get into. Because your best life is always better than the idea of someone else's. We believe in therapy at imo and we've seen firsthand how beneficial it is to invest in your own well being. You know, this reminds me of my teams when I coached back in my day we didn't have therapists assigned to the team and boy, it sure would have been nice to have access to BetterHelp so I could send my players to someone who I could trust and was reputable. BetterHelp has experienced therapists ready to help you with challenges ranging from anxiety and relationships to stress. It's convenient too. You can join a session with the click of a button, helping you fit therapy into your busy life. And you deserve that. It's time to stop comparing and start living with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com imo today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H E L p.com imo this message is brought to you by Apple Card. Apple Card is a no fee credit card that gives you daily cash back every day. That's 3% back at Apple and 2% back on every purchase made with Apple Card using Apple Pay. Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app on your iPhone today subject to credit approval. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.24% to 28% based on creditworthiness rates as of January 1, 2025. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and [e-mail] I would be remiss if I didn't ask both of you when we don't know what Shantae's situation is. But how can we as men help you all with this process?

[Michelle Obama]

Remember I said at the convention, do something.

[Craig Robinson]

See, this way I gotta do it.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Well, I mean, she has a point.

[Craig Robinson]

Do something. Okay, Any suggestions my dear? Just a couple.

[Michelle Obama]

Do something. Anything, you know what I mean?

[Craig Robinson]

Are trying to help, but we don't know how to help. We can barely get ourselves to therapy right and we're trying to thug our way through this by I'm here for you But I don't know what to do.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Sometimes just saying that takes me breakfast literally. Sometimes just saying that because I feel seen. Okay.

[Craig Robinson]

Okay.

[Taraji P. Henson]

You're not just ignoring me. You're not just going on about your way, thugging your way through things. You're going, you know what? I see you're in distress. I just don't know how to help. Then that allows me to go, this is how you can help. Open dialogue.

[Michelle Obama]

And you know what I also want, you know, if you're not going to therapy, then I want you to find the place where you're gonna keep growing, too. That.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

And you can't grow in your own mind alone. Right. So if there are issues, you know, and you see me struggling, you know, you can't always fix my struggle. But I would want the men in their lives to take a look at themselves, too. Cause if we're doing all this work as women, figuring it out, going to therapy, you know, finding our peace, you know, trying to heal our trauma, then you gotta be doing the same thing, too. Cause it's not just me. It's both of us. It's all of us. So I would say to the men, you know, do the work, too. And find the way to do the work in the way that you can do it. And if you can't go to therapy cause you're thugging it out, then talk to somebody.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Somebody. Talk to somebody.

[Michelle Obama]

To each other. That would be something, if that helps. And then throw a load of laundry in it. Make breakfast.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, I. Well, you know, I'm not. Okay, if it's not you, then it's. That doesn't apply.

[Craig Robinson]

It doesn't apply. But for the brothers out there, it's.

[Taraji P. Henson]

He did say the Airbnb, he washed the dirty uniforms. I heard him say that.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. Thank you. It's nice of you to remember that. No, this has been extraordinarily helpful for me as a man to hear you all be so vulnerable and so authentic with this, so.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Well, and I also can be vulnerable as well.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Be vulnerable. Don't thug your way through everything.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. Right.

[Michelle Obama]

And I think we have to talk. We have to, you know, we have to rip the veil off of these conversations. Yes. And talk about what we struggle with. Talk about the help that we're getting.

[Craig Robinson]

And the help you need.

[Michelle Obama]

The help you need. And we have to learn how to articulate our pain and not be afraid to say we're hurting, that this is hard, that I'm scared, that I'm tired, you know, and then, you know, we want the men in our lives to, you know, give us a safe place to land when we do that. Right.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Maybe there's nothing to fix, but maybe it's just. Listen, don't make us feel like we're crazy.

[Craig Robinson]

Right.

[Michelle Obama]

You know?

[Craig Robinson]

Right, right. No, I get it.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

So. So this has been some heavy stuff. I would like to know, how do you spend your leisure time? Like, what does Taraji P. Henson do when she.

[Michelle Obama]

Are you in your toy room?

[Taraji P. Henson]

I'm in the toy room.

[Craig Robinson]

But when you're not in the toy room.

[Taraji P. Henson]

No, I.

[Craig Robinson]

Do you watch anything? Are you reading anything?

[Taraji P. Henson]

What are you doing? I enjoy. I just got a new puppy. Oh, well, I already have a dog, Buddha. And Buddha just seemed lonely because I can't chase Buddha around. He's a little French bulldog. And so I got him a Zen Buddha. And Zen. And so right now, that's what occupies my time.

[Michelle Obama]

And puppies. How old is.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Zen is four months.

[Craig Robinson]

Oh.

[Taraji P. Henson]

And voodoo is two. And so right now, they bring me so much joy. So that. And, you know, family time. And I love going to visit with family. Like I said, I just came back. I have lots of cousins and, you know, that always lifts my spirits and it gives me the motivation I need to keep going, you know, my family. Cause I just love my family. I come from a family where, as cousins, we all used to sleep on the pallet.

[Michelle Obama]

Remember that?

[Taraji P. Henson]

The blankets, before the blow up mattresses, we had big blankets on the floor. And so we're really close. So I'm saying that right now because that's what's brought me this joy that I have. I'm carrying right now because I just came back from seeing them, so.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. And a little birdie tells me that you are a Real Housewives fan. Is that correct? Did I get that?

[Taraji P. Henson]

I do. I watch Unscripted is good because I.

[Michelle Obama]

Love Unscripted too, because it makes you.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Forget about your problems. Exactly. You're like, ooh, that's part of the.

[Michelle Obama]

Turn it off.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Exactly.

[Michelle Obama]

It's just like they did what Good scrub.

[Taraji P. Henson]

No, she didn't. You know, but it's my little secret place to.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, we have our production company, Higher Ground, and a lot of people think that it's all presidential and we're gonna do documentaries and we just came out with unscripted later daters where we. Oh, that's interesting.

[Taraji P. Henson]

I like that.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Yes. So we are. It's a show that couples finds love matches for aspirational people over 50, people who look like us. Yes. You know, who are looking for love. And, you know, it's got this great dating coach, this young woman, Logan Urie. And you just sort of go along that journey. We are working. I'm not trying to pump the show, but I'm just saying that people didn't expect us to be doing unscripted. But it's like, well, that's my taste, right? I mean, I love those kind of shows where it's just regular people. I think that maybe that's the sociologist in me that I love watching. Regular human connection, real interaction. Although my brother says that unscripted isn't real. You know, that Real Housewives ain't real. They're acting and we don't even care.

[Taraji P. Henson]

We don't care. It's good tv.

[Craig Robinson]

The most intellectual women that I know, my sister, my wife, my daughter. Now you all watch this stuff, and I am shocked still. I'm always shocked.

[Michelle Obama]

But I always say the NBA is like the real. That's reality tv.

[Craig Robinson]

But that's reality TV now. But.

[Michelle Obama]

But it's still drama.

[Taraji P. Henson]

But it's.

[Michelle Obama]

There's a lot of drama. Yeah. This is real, too. These are real situations.

[Craig Robinson]

I think people manufacture beef.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Well, you don't know.

[Michelle Obama]

They manufacture.

[Taraji P. Henson]

It's produced. So you can have an actual beginning, middle, and end. It has to have some kind of structure. Otherwise it's just chaos. So. But at the end of the day, those are real issues.

[Craig Robinson]

It feels like chaos. It feels like.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, there is chaos. It feels like there's chaos. Manufacturing, there's chaos in life. There's action. So what's your favorite franchise?

[Taraji P. Henson]

My favorite? Oh, I'm kind of.

[Michelle Obama]

You watch a little bit of all of them.

[Taraji P. Henson]

I watch a little bit of all of them.

[Craig Robinson]

So do I.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Girl love and hip hop.

[Michelle Obama]

I watch. Oh, I do, too.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Oh, my God, I'm so happy.

[Michelle Obama]

Mama Dee. Oh, child, yes. Oh, child.

[Taraji P. Henson]

I love it because I know a mama.

[Michelle Obama]

Darn dm.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Everybody. Everybody knows a Mama Dee.

[Michelle Obama]

They sure do.

[Taraji P. Henson]

If you don't have one in your family, you gotta.

[Michelle Obama]

Then you lying. You are lying. You just not recognizing Mama Dee.

[Taraji P. Henson]

I have a Momma Dee in my family. I ain't gonna say who, but.

[Michelle Obama]

But I'm like that. I tell my husband. I was like, you watch golf, right? I watch unscripted.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Yeah. Okay.

[Michelle Obama]

Fair, Fair. And it brings me. I don't know. It just settles me down when you get to talk.

[Taraji P. Henson]

And I guess the blackness in us, the call and response, like.

[Michelle Obama]

Cause we were. I would have said.

[Taraji P. Henson]

I would have. I woulda Shoulda. If that was me, like, talk to.

[Michelle Obama]

Her while I'm taking my makeup off. Like, girl, oh, I woulda. I swear to God. Let me be at that dinner. Exactly.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Exactly. Okay.

[Craig Robinson]

I brought this on myself. Here. I brought it on myself.

[Michelle Obama]

You sure did.

[Taraji P. Henson]

But you made a connection. Because I would have never thought she would say love.

[Craig Robinson]

Before we. Before we end up. And this has been just tremendous. And I wanna thank you. But before we end up, I'd like to give Shantae just. I wanna recap the strategies. Cause we hit on some good stuff. The saying no and the find some therapy somewhere. And your points, your many points. But.

[Michelle Obama]

Be okay with disappointing people. You know, practice that disappointment and do the work of feeling good about yourself.

[Craig Robinson]

And that was the one that really stood out to me is you're not just gonna automatically feel happy once you say no. You gotta keep working, you know.

[Michelle Obama]

And there will, as I discovered, there will be backlash to your no you.

[Taraji P. Henson]

But like you said, and the guilt that comes with. Cause you've been saying yes. Did I do the right thing? Did I do the right thing?

[Craig Robinson]

But both of you all said, but after you learn to say no, you realize the world keeps turning. So once you start to feel comfortable saying no, things are gonna reconfigure. And then finally, and this is just on my mental list of the things that I thought were really good outside of. Of getting your men to go ahead and get in therapy was the. I liked the rejiggering your neurons in your brain.

[Michelle Obama]

You gotta practice different messages to yourself. Because we have been raised with a different set of messages. And that gets imprinted in you in some real ways. Just like trauma and pain, all of that is in our systems, right? And it becomes a loop, a negative loop that we can't get out of. And I think for me, I'm trying to recognize that what keeps me from my own peace sometimes is me. Yes.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Most of us.

[Michelle Obama]

Most of us, it's me practicing old messages. And so knowing that I have to affirmatively work at telling myself different things is. It's a real practice at 61 years old, to reshape the way that I operate in the world. Has to be mindful, intentional, and done frequently.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Yeah. It takes work. It just doesn't go, oh, I did it today.

[Michelle Obama]

How?

[Taraji P. Henson]

I'm the master. No. Some days are easier than others.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, Taraji, thank you so much. You are amazing. I love you. I'm so proud of you.

[Taraji P. Henson]

Thank you.

[Michelle Obama]

You are doing it. And just know you got two fans, a whole Airbnb full of fans of folks who are rooting for you every single step of the way.

[Taraji P. Henson]

RA.