27 - Empire Secrets: How the Roman Empire Can Transform Your Leadership and Business

Summary

Impact with Eddie Wilson: Episode 27 - Empire Secrets: How the Roman Empire Can Transform Your Leadership and Business

Release Date: May 27, 2025
Host: Eddie Wilson

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Introduction

In Episode 27 of the "Impact with Eddie Wilson" podcast, host Eddie Wilson delves deep into the enduring lessons that the Roman Empire offers to modern leaders and entrepreneurs. Drawing parallels between ancient strategies and contemporary business practices, Eddie emphasizes the importance of building organizations that stand the test of time through principles, systems, adaptability, and servant leadership.

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Building on Principles, Not Personalities

Key Insight: Sustainable success is rooted in steadfast principles rather than the charisma of individual leaders.

Eddie begins by highlighting the significance of the Roman Empire’s longevity, attributing it not to the multitude of its leaders but to the unwavering principles that underpinned its institutions. He states:

"Sustainable ventures and movements are rooted in values, governance, and systems, not charismatic founders." (04:30)

Examples:

• Apple Inc.: Initially driven by Steve Jobs' visionary personality, Apple successfully transitioned to Tim Cook's leadership by embedding robust systems and values, ensuring continued success beyond Jobs' tenure.
• Nike: Under Phil Knight’s charismatic leadership, Nike flourished. Today, the company thrives even as most people are unfamiliar with its CEO, proving the strength of its underlying principles over individual personalities.

Contrast:

• Southwest Airlines: Herb Keller’s eccentric leadership initially propelled Southwest to success. However, the company's stagnation post-his influence underscores the risks of over-reliance on a single personality.

Quote Highlight:

"If you build an organization on your personality, it will be the shortest live success you've ever experienced." (10:15)

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Scaling Through Systems

Key Insight: Effective systems are essential for scaling operations and ensuring consistency across expanding ventures.

Eddie underscores that the Roman Empire's ability to manage vast territories hinged on its sophisticated systems—legal codes, governance structures, and military hierarchies—that transcended individual leadership. He asserts:

"To scale any operation, whether it's a company or community, you have to have strong infrastructure and repeatable processes." (15:45)

Example:

• American Empire: The tri-branch system (executive, legislative, judicial) ensures checks and balances, maintaining stability even as individual leaders change.

Contrast:

• Artistic endeavors, driven solely by individual creativity, lack the replicable systems necessary for lasting impact, unlike institutional frameworks.

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Resilience Through Adaptability

Key Insight: The ability to adapt and absorb new cultures fosters resilience and long-term survival.

Eddie illustrates how the Roman Empire thrived by integrating diverse cultures and adapting their practices within the overarching Roman framework. He explains:

"Resilience comes from adaptability. Long-term survival depends on evolving with the world, integrating new ideas, and staying flexible without losing your core identity." (25:00)

Example:

• Roman Governance: Even as Rome expanded into Africa, it allowed conquered regions to maintain their local laws and customs, promoting stability and integration.

Personal Story: Eddie shares his experience with the American Association of Private Lenders, where adapting to new leadership and systems led to the organization's growth into the largest global aggregation of private capital. By prioritizing principles over ego, he enabled resilience and success.

Quote Highlight:

"The most powerful thing you can do is to set down your ego and allow your organization to thrive beyond your personal influence." (24:30)

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Culture as a Strategic Asset

Key Insight: A well-defined and values-driven culture shapes behaviors and drives organizational success.

Eddie emphasizes that culture is not merely aspirational statements but is embodied through consistent behaviors and practices. He states:

"Culture is not just me doing it. Culture is us doing it, and it shapes behavior." (30:00)

Example:

• Starbucks: Under Howard Schultz, Starbucks cultivated a culture centered around delivering a unique customer experience. By adhering to principles like friendly service and a welcoming atmosphere, Starbucks achieved enduring success. However, deviations from these principles led to a dilution of the brand, necessitating a return to foundational values under new leadership.

Key Takeaway: A strategic culture ensures that all members of the organization are aligned with its core values, fostering a cohesive and motivated workforce.

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Leadership is Service, Not Glory

Key Insight: True leadership prioritizes the mission and serves others, transcending personal ego.

Eddie posits that exceptional leadership is characterized by humility and stewardship. Drawing inspiration from Roman general Cincinnatus, who returned to his farm after saving the Republic, he highlights:

"Leadership is a privilege. It is something that I get to do, not something I have to do." (35:00)

Quote Highlight:

"True leadership serves the mission, not the ego. Humility and stewardship build trust and institutions that outlast you." (40:00)

Example:

• Cincinnatus: After fulfilling his duty, Cincinnatus relinquished power without seeking personal glory, exemplifying servant leadership that benefits the larger system.

Additional Insight: Eddie discusses how reducing personal ego within leadership paves the way for lasting impact. By making oneself less central, leaders can enable their organizations to thrive independently.

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Adaptability in Action: A Personal Narrative

Eddie recounts his transformative experience with the American Association of Private Lenders (AAPL):

1. Initial Challenge: AAPL was stagnating due to leadership overly reliant on outdated systems and personal egos.
2. Discovery: Eddie identified Linda, a marginalized employee who had developed strategic KPIs to guide the organization.
3. Action: By empowering Linda and removing ego-driven barriers, Eddie facilitated a cultural and systemic overhaul.
4. Outcome: Under Linda’s leadership, AAPL became the largest global aggregation of private capital, significantly influencing legislation and industry practices.

Key Quote:

"By removing ego from the organization, we adapted to principles and systems that ensured our success." (43:00)

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Addressing Common Challenges

Antidote to Glory-Centric Leadership: Eddie suggests that fostering humility and emphasizing servant leadership can counteract ego-driven leadership styles. Leaders should focus on empowering others and building systems that outlast their personal influence.

Irrelevance vs. Insignificance: Eddie challenges the notion that becoming irrelevant equates to being insignificant. He argues that allowing oneself to become less central can actually enhance an organization's significance by promoting sustainability and legacy.

"The more irrelevant you are, the more significance you gain." (44:50)

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Conclusion

Eddie Wilson masterfully intertwines historical insights from the Roman Empire with practical business strategies, offering a blueprint for building enduring and resilient organizations. By prioritizing principles over personalities, establishing robust systems, embracing adaptability, cultivating a strategic culture, and embodying servant leadership, leaders can create legacies that withstand the test of time.

Final Thought:

"If you're building something meant to last, it might be a company, a movement, a legacy. And Rome offers both inspiration and caution. Make sure that you take inventory today of your organization, your company, your family, your community, and make sure that you are leaving it a better place than you found it." (49:00)

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Notable Quotes

• “Sustainable ventures and movements are rooted in values, governance, and systems, not charismatic founders.” – Eddie Wilson (10:15)
• “Resilience comes from adaptability. Long-term survival depends on evolving with the world, integrating new ideas, and staying flexible without losing your core identity.” – Eddie Wilson (25:00)
• “True leadership serves the mission, not the ego. Humility and stewardship build trust and institutions that outlast you.” – Eddie Wilson (40:00)
• “The more irrelevant you are, the more significance you gain.” – Eddie Wilson (44:50)

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Connect with Eddie Wilson

For more insights and to continue the conversation, connect with Eddie Wilson on social media at E.Wilsonofficial.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Impact Podcast. I'm Eddie Wilson, here to help you visualize what others cannot see, create opportunities where others have failed, and push you to build empires where once there was empty space. Let's embark on this journey together and make a difference in this world. Welcome to the podcast today. I'm super excited about this episode. If you've seen my brand over the past 10, 10 years, you know that I'm a fanatic of the Roman Empire. I love the writings of Aurelius, Marcus Aurelius. I am a huge fan of Ryan Holiday, who talks so much about the Stoics and. But not just the principles and philosophies, but the principles that actually took something of insignificance to great significance to the point where we still. We're still talking about it today. As a matter of fact, if you look at the operating system I've built for my companies, it's literally called Empire. I have built them on the principles. And to me, the two greatest empires that I think we can learn from today are, number one, the Roman Empire, but then also the Napoleonic Empire, that empire that Napoleon created because he built it on a system of codes and principles. If you've ever read my book, the Titan Doctrine, you know that I talk a lot about these pieces. But in this episode today, we're going to talk a little bit about what principles did Rome use that we should be using in our business, our life, our growth, all of that that we are going through in life today. We can rely on the successes and principles that they used to put them into our life. I want to say this, that founders, leaders and builders can draw powerful, enduring lessons from the rise and the resilience empire. But not just that. Also key cautions on what can actually cause it to fall. Right? Because it's not just the rise of the Roman Empire, it's also the fall of the Roman Empire that we can learn from. So let's jump in. Number one, what is the first principle that we can learn from? Number one, we must build our businesses and our lives on principles, not personalities. We must build it on principles and not personalities. As a matter of fact, if you look back through the kind of annals of time specific to the Roman Empire, you might be able to come up with three or four emperors, you might be able to come up with three or four leaders, but by and large, you're not naming the dozens of leaders that Rome enjoyed through that time period. And that's because while there were some standouts and there were some crazies, the Roman Empire was built on the principles of the Roman Empire. And to the degree that these personalities adhered to it, you actually find success. Right. So what happens is the ones that we actually go back to and we lean into and we talk about like the Marcus Aurelius, you know, kind of character. What you find is a person of high character who actually adhered to the principles in a very dedicated way. And the ones that you least know are the ones that you see where the Empire dipped or they had little stumbles here and there. It was the ones that were tied to the lack of adherence to these principles. So what were some of these principles? Right, the, the principles of the Roman Empire, number one, is that they outlasted kings, generals, emperors, because it was built on institutions, systems that worked beyond any one leader. They had a system of governance, they had a system of law, they had a system of, of hierarchy within the military. Right? And they had these principles and systems that everyone adhered to, and then they had a team that would push the leader back towards that center. And so, number one, they didn't start with a personality. They actually started with the institutions. This is important because most entrepreneurs start with a personality and they will die with that personality. The personality quote quickly has to translate into core values and why we do what we do and then the principles by which we live by to make sure that those core values are sustained. And so when you think about your organization, you think about what you're building, if you're building it on your personality, it will be the shortest live success you've ever experienced. I am fearful for this generation because this generation, it said that we went from the, the, in the age of industry to the age of information to now we're in what they call the age of influence. And so many people are building their businesses and their lives on their personal brand. And while I think that personal brand is vitally important, so important, I spend a lot of time building my own personal brand. It has to transition into the principles of an institution because it cannot sustain over time on the personality of, of a man or a woman. And so we have to make sure that as we begin to find success in personality, we very quickly transition into principle. Sustainable ventures and movements are rooted in values, governance and systems, not charismatic founders. I'm going to say that one more time because I know that this goes against the very grain and nature of what people think. Sustainable ventures and movements are rooted in values, governance and systems, and not just charismatic founders. You know, it was interesting watching Apple, which to me is One of the greatest companies of our day really be built out of the mind. And the personality of Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs wasn't the only personality, right? Like you had a lot, a couple other founders there, but Steve Jobs became the personality of Apple. And then watching Apple as its transition from Steve Jobs into Tim Cook and most people don't know a lot about Tim Cook. They don't know a lot about it or watching Nike go from Phil Knight, this, this charismatic founder now to I bet most people can't even name the CEO of Nike. But Nike is having more success today than they've ever experienced in the years under Phil Knight. So you have to transition. It can't just be a charismatic leader. It has to move into systems, values, governance, so on and so forth. Number two, scale requires systems. You're going to find a theme here. So number one, build on principles, not personalities. Number two, scale requires systems, roads, legal codes, bureaucracy. The military organization allowed the military allowed the Roman Empire to govern across not just one area, but if you remember, they expanded into areas that were unknown. And, and then what they did was they began to adhere or to hold accountable those new areas to the old systems that they built, right? What is a system? A system is a systematic way of doing things that is replicable and replicable over space and time, right? So I know that the hardest thing to do is to take a complex thing and transfer it to someone else who doesn't understand the complex thing. It's very, very hard. However, the person who is building the complex thing should have the same responsibility in building the collects thing to actually build a system, to pass it on, right? So for instance, somebody who comes up with great rules and laws and governance to not actually build the system causes the deterioration of the brilliance of the system itself or of the, the laws itself. So if you think about it, the brilliance of the American empire, right, which should never be understated because what we've experienced in the American empire is nothing short of remarkable. But if you look at it, it's those three branches of governance, it's the three branches of government. And when you think about it, it's not just the Constitution, right? It's not just the laws, it's not just the brilliance of these men, these forefathers, to think through all of the things that we were going to go through hundreds of years later and build the Constitution, which I think is a remarkable document, it's then to take something like the Supreme Court to essentially hold us accountable to those, right? So that's the systems that then hold us accountable. And so understanding how we do it, the systematic way that we do it, is what is going to stand the test of time. It's interesting because if you go to all the brilliance of art and painting around the world, you find the uniqueness that is there. And you hear people say, wow, that person looks like they paint like Van Gogh or they build like Gaudi or they. Whatever it is. But the reality of it is, is that those men, those painters, those creators, only last one lifetime because they can't systematically pass it down. So if everything is built on creativity and art, there's no way to pass it down because there's no systems. You've heard me talk a lot about chaos and order. And this is where the chaos must come into order. Because if you can't pull your chaos into order, then without order, you'll never build an empire. You'll have success that is fleeting. Systems are required for scale. To scale any operation, whether it's a company or community, you have to have strong infrastructure and repeatable process. Repeatable process. Number three. Resilience comes from adaptability. Resilience comes from adaptability. So we're building this, you know, foundation. Think of it this way. As you're building an organization, you're building a foundation, and you're building it on principles, not a personality. Then you're putting systems on top of it so that you can repeat these processes over and over again, find efficiency and productivity. The next layer is that resilience comes from adaptability. Rome actually thrived by absorbing other cultures and personalities. Here's the irony here, is that while they built a system, their system allowed for adaptation, right? So think about it this way. As your organization grows and you've got, let's say, one person, and you're this, you know, charismatic personality, you're a Richard Branson type personality. And so you're building it on yourself. And you realize, like, oh, man, I actually can't repeat this, so I need the people around me. I can't scale this, so I bring people around me. And then to bring people around, you have to realize that now you're building it on principles, not a personality. Then in order to get the most out of those people, you build systems so that everything is repeatable. However, as the organization grows, this is a massive stopping point for most businesses, is that they believe that the only thing that matters is still the philosophies and the culture of the original founder. Right? Which is not true. What happens is as you begin to absorb, you have to Adapt. You know, when the Roman Empire moved into Africa, they didn't, they had a system of laws and governance, but they didn't steal the culture away from those communities that they were absorbing, right? Like they began to allow to still have them now. They had their own governance, they had their own laws, but they allowed them to maintain their own faith. They allowed. Great piece of this would be if you are in kind of like a biblical scholar, you understand that during the time of Jesus Christ on the earth that they, that the, the Jews were actually governed by the Roman Empire, they were subservient to Rome. However, you find that they still had their synagogues, they still had their Pharisees, they still had their scribes, they still had their Sadducees, right? Like their entire system under the kind of Jewish culture still existed, but then it had the Roman Empire on top of it. So what I'm saying by principle is this, is that as you begin to absorb people into your organization or into your community, it can't just be you adapt to us. It has to be. You have to have a mechanism and you have to have a foundation that's strong enough to be able to adapt to all their ideas because they're bringing strengths and opportunities to the exact same organization that you brought strengths and opportunities to. And so this is important because I see a lot of companies who really struggle during this time period where in this period of growth, they see lots of opportunities, but they shun them, they push them off because they don't fit the narrative of what once was. Resilience comes from adaptability. Long term survival depends on evolving with the world, integrating new ideas and staying flexible. Staying flexible. Listen to this. Without losing your core identity. Your core identity, go back. Is tied to the principles, it's tied to the system, it's tied to that culture. But you can adapt, you can absorb and adjust and adapt, right? The next principle that we learned from the Roman Empire is that culture is a strategic asset. Culture is a strategic asset. Culture is not just what you want things to be in your organization. It's the systematic behaviors that are represented, right? So culture isn't just about looking forward and saying, this is where I want to go. I want to be a culture of accountability. I want to be a culture of family. I want to be a culture. It's not just stating these things, it's about looking back over time and saying, did I create that? The Roman values that they use, like gravitas or disciplina or virtues, right? Like these are the culture of the Roman Empire, right? Where they very much had not just what to do, but how and why to do it, right? And so culture should shape behavior. So we should have a forward look, right? We should be like, hey, this is the culture we want. We should build principles to essentially gain that culture. But we should look back over time and make sure that it's represented in the behaviors of the people at Collective influence. One of the cultures that I want is a give back culture, right? So I talk about this ability to create wealth and create resources in what we're doing, but then the ability to give it away and make impact. And so I start my meetings a lot of times in our town halls or our group meetings where I'll talk about an update as to the orphanages or the feeding centers or the wells that we're digging or the businesses that we're building around the world, and we'll talk about it. Why am I talking about it consistently? Because I want it to be a part of our culture. However, if we have a give back culture corporately and now I look back at the individuals, what I want to see is that each one of them are also taking on this same ethos, right? Like, are they giving back when I give them the opportunity? Are they jumping in? Are they just watching me do it or. And being maybe even grateful and excited about it? Or are they personifying it? Culture is not just me doing it. Culture is us doing it, right? And culture is a strategic asset because when you get people's hearts aligned, right? Like when they begin to do things because they desire it, right? They, they want to it, they, they want to do it, they see the outcomes of it. Now all of a sudden, we have a cohesive unit moving forward. Culture shapes behavior. And a founder should define and defend their organization's values early. And then as a strategic, kind of like outcry, it should become a part of their marketing, their communication, and it should be pervasive through the entire organization. And then the last principle that I think is so vital is this. This is the last principle I want to give you that I think now there's a hundred principles you can pull from the Roman Empire. I mean, obviously they existed for a long period of time, the Pax Romana, the longest period of peace. I mean, like they, they really did something amazing and remarkable. And you could take so many insights. But this is my last insight is this, is that leadership. And I want you to hear this one if you hear any of them. Maybe I should have started with this one, but leadership is Service, it's not glory. Leadership is service, not glory. To me, if I was given one topic to teach on specific to the Roman Empire, it would be this one. And that is. Leadership is a privilege. Leadership is something that I get to do. It's not something I have to do. And leadership is not a position that should lift my ego, should lift my Persona. Leadership should be something that I see in service. There's no greater leader than a servant leader. There's no greater leader than the person who chooses to eat last when everyone else eats first. Like, to me, that is the. Is the leadership that I want to push and I want to push into this world. Because if you go back, I love the story of one of the legendary kind of leaders of Rome. And he was a great general, and his name was Cincinnatus. And so I grew up in Ohio. So Cincinnati, obviously, is like, kind of like, from this kind of concept. But Cincinnatus was one of the great generals, and after winning a massive. He literally saved the Republic. Like, I mean, like, I don't want to go deep into the story, but he saved the Republic. He was lauded. He was. I mean, like, he could have had any position in Rome. And what happens is, after he saves the Republic, you find him for the next period of time back on his farm, back with his family. No glory and no fanfare. Like, he literally disappears. Like, he. He literally is lauded as one of Rome's great saviors. And past that point in his life, you hear nothing like, it's gone. It's over. And to me, that's amazing. To have the position of influence and power and to choose peace and prosperity and family is really, really. To me, it's an important part of what happened in the Roman Empire after, you know, he returned to his farm after saving the Republic, and he didn't cling to power. I think oftentimes when we rise to a place of significance, we fear the lack of it. When we rise to a place of significance, we fear the lack of it. Because there's something inside of the human brain and mind and kind of our culture that, you know, once I'm granted the right to have ego, the last thing we want to do is set it down. But I got to tell you, the most powerful thing you can do as you've been granted the right to have ego, you're successful, you're powerful, you've done it. You're amazing. You've conquered, you've crushed. The most powerful thing you can do past that point is not hold on it's not to chase more, it's actually to set it down. Think about it. The most powerful person you've ever come in contact with in your life is the person who has all power and chooses not to wield it. Right? That person's scary because we don't get it. We don't understand it. I'll tell you, it's the most powerful place you can be. True leadership serves the mission, not the ego. True leadership serves the mission, not the ego. I'm gonna say it one more time. True, true, true. Leadership serves the mission, not the ego. If you're walking around your organization or your community and your acts are to draw more attention to yourself, more attention to your power, more attention to your prowess, more attention to your personality, Right? Like you are missing the point. You're serving your ego with leadership, not the mission. Can you be less and the mission in the organization be more? Is that possible? If not, it's an ego driven desire for leadership. Humility and stewardship build trust and institutions that outlast you. Humility and stewardship, the two important things. Humility and stewardship build trust and institutions that will outlast you. If you want to learn from the Roman Empire, right? Empires fall and principles last. You're going to learn from these principles that we can see in the Roman Empire. We can see how to use them in our own life. The most important one, probably where we should start with is this concept that leadership is service, not glory. You don't exist in this organization. And if you do that right, it's easy to go back to point number one and make it not a personality driven organization, but a principle led organization, and then to actually build systems. You know why entrepreneurs don't build systems? Because they're afraid of insignificance. If I build a system and everyone else doesn't need me and they can just do it over and over again without me, am I needed? Right. Ego again. If I then go to the next one, which is resilience comes from adaptability. Well, nobody else's ideas matter because mine matter. Why? Because if their ideas actually bring success, then what happens? Well, then you lose insignificance. Ego again, Right? And then culture is a strategic asset. Oftentimes culture is a systematic way of behaviors. Do your behaviors align with the behaviors you want? Oftentimes the reason you don't have the culture you want is because your own behaviors don't create that culture. Right. And then that last piece, which is leadership is not. Leadership is service, not glory. It comes down to the ego. It does every single time. It's so wild. I. That's why every single time somebody asks me what's my favorite book, I give a lot of books. I love Winning by Tim Grover. I love. I love the hard thing about hard things with Horowitz. I love all these books. But I always point back to Ryan Holiday's book on ego is the enemy. Because when I look at all these principles, what I see is myself getting in the way, right? Like, I want all these things. I look at these things and I think, man, if I could just do this, my organization could outlast me. And guess what? The only thing standing in the way is me. It's my ego. It's harder to maintain at the top than the actual fight to get there. When you are fighting to get there, fighting to get to success, it's easy to put down the ego. All of a sudden, you get to the top, you're in first place, you're leading, Right? One of the scariest things to me was when we were given the title of the world's largest business tour. I hated it, you know, because I think that most people like, oh, man, we arrived. To me, it felt like, oh, no. Like this actually could mean the end, right? Because you know why? Once you're the largest, it's so much harder to fight to stay at the top, to not get complacent than it is to actually rise. It's easier to rise than. Than to maintain. One last quote I'm going to leave you with for the podcast today is this. I brought up the book Winning by Tim Grover, and one of my favorite quotes, the entire book. If you've never read this book, it's a must read. You got to put it on your list. Audible. Whatever it takes, get through this book. It's huge. Is. He says winning is not a marathon. It's a sprint with no finish line. Winning is not a marathon. It's a sprint with no finish line. You know what's interesting is, is as you're sprinting to the top and then you get there, you have to continue to sprint. Why? Because everybody else that's chasing is still sprinting. Right? And that's a harsh reality. So instead of you putting all. And here's. Here's where I. Here's where I want to. I want to kind of anchor into real quick. Is that when I just said that you thought, oh, dear God, that means I have to sprint the rest of my life? Nope, that was your ego talking right there. Because if you build an organization that has the ability to sprint indefinitely, it can do it without you. If you're gonna build a winning team, if you're gonna build Apple, if you're gonna build Nike, if you're gonna build something significant, it has to take you out of it. Right. Like when I said winning is not a marathon, it's a sprint with no finish line. You're like, oh, dear God, I have to sprint for the rest of my life. No, you have to teach others to sprint and you have to hand off the baton. That's what the Roman Empire is all about. If you're building something meant to last, it might be a company, a movement, a legacy. And Rome offers both inspiration and caution. Make sure that you take inventory today of your organization, your company, your family, your community, and. And make sure that you are. You are leaving it a better place than you found it.

[B]

I love it. I have questions for each of your five steps.

[A]

Can I go through them? Yep, sure.

[B]

Okay. Principles versus personalities. The first thought that came to my mind was the shift that is happening where you have to build upon principles and not personalities with transparency is just getting harder and harder, harder. It's way easier to tell in inauthenticity. Do you think there is relevance for personality tactic? You kind of touched on this and is it in a certain step of.

[A]

Yeah, I think. I think personality is important, and I think that you oftentimes have to build in the beginning off of a personality. It's the fastest way to growth and to significance in our society. However, you can then maintain the personality. You know, it's like there are people that have great personalities that are leading, but you also have to be underlining everything you're doing with those systems and principles. While, you know, you can use it as a marketing crutch, you know, but you don't want it to be used as an organizational operational crutch. And that's the important part is like, I think that our personalities, as we build the company, need to move into more of a forward push, but also should not be reliant on the actual fulfillment and organizational structure.

[B]

Think of like Moses and Aaron. Yeah, it's like you have the.

[A]

For sure. Yeah. You have a face. You have the guy doing all the work. Yeah.

[B]

Do you have a favorite example of a leader who led with personality and a favorite example of a leader who led with principle?

[A]

Yeah, I love the personality of Warren Buffett. I mean, like, I. I just enjoy him mainly because he's an anomaly. You know, he's a guy who's multi billionaire who still lives in the same house, drives the same car. Like, it didn't change him. And. And his personality was just kind of like out there the entire time. He was quippy, he was. He was kind of eclectic and eccentric, but yet he was just so hometown. Omaha, Nebraska. You know, and to me, that personality I love, and I think I love it not because of what his personality was, but the authenticity tied to it, you know, culturally, maybe even, you know, from a. I think if Warren Buffett and I were sitting there together, would we be similar or the same? Probably not. We probably would be opposite in a lot of areas. But I. I really value his authenticity and the. The ability to navigate life without ever allowing life to change him. And so to me, I like that. I like that leadership style. And then the second question was not just personality led than it was a.

[B]

Leader who led on principles.

[A]

Led on principles. Yeah. There's so many great leaders that led on principles. And, you know, I think that I, you know, I obviously am a big coffee connoisseur, and so I really appreciate the character of kind of Howard Schultz. Howard Schultz was this kind of. He's still eccentric, he's still an interesting guy. Goes to Italy, you know, sits in coffee shops, brings it back in the brand of Starbucks. What I love about what he built in Starbucks was he said, we're not necessarily selling coffee, we're selling an experience. And he built it. And he said, there's three things that I want everybody, every person to. To experience coming in the coffee shop. Number one, he said, I wanted to walk in, I want you to smell the coffee. He said, I wanted to, you know, be a part of the experience. Number two, I want you to see, I want to feel like you walked into an old world Tuscany, you know, place where you get the experience that I got while I was in Italy. And number three, I want you to be greeted by a friendly barista. What I know is, is that in the rise of Starbucks, when they had their greatest years, was when they adhered to that principle. Later on, when they, you know, were more ran from a corporate governance body is when they started opening themselves up to all the licensing deals and they wanted Target and they wanted a Publix. They went all these. And you lost so much of what that was. And I think that now they're in a new phase with the new CEO, who's really going back to some of those basics. So I do think that if you look at Starbucks, they had a massive rise, but they rose on principle, not Personality.

[B]

Do you have, like, negative examples, ones you are not necessarily favorite, but you can and learn cautionary.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I would say one of the negative ones that I would, you know, look at would be a Herb Keller, you know, where he actually built. I mean, like, he was the legendary Southwest Airlines CEO. But Herb was so eccentric and would do crazy things, like margarita. You know, they would take breaks at 3 o' clock in the afternoon and all drink margaritas. And they just kind of had this crazy thing. And he gave that Southwest wackiness, right? Like where a flight attendant could stand up and give their own version of the. Of, you know, the rules of flying and stuff like that. And Herb was kind of this eccentric guy. And what happened was, is Herb, I think, used his personality. That wackiness, that craziness, that let's do margaritas at 3pm that allowed Southwest to rise. But then once they actually found success, Southwest, I believe, stagnated because of the personality of Herb. Right. Like, I feel like he didn't allow his ego to get out of the way, and. And they end up moving on. And then Southwest does find success. But I feel like you see in their kind of rise, you find her, bring them to the top, which a personality does, but then a personality that doesn't get out of the way oftentimes then can stagnate it. And I feel like there's so many of those. I feel like you could go by the hundreds of those because it's. It's such the. It's why it needs to be cautioned to everybody is like, this is the natural thing. We kind of build our own empire and then we think like, we're the central figure of the empire.

[B]

Is that a more common story then?

[A]

Way more common.

[B]

That makes sense.

[A]

Way more common.

[B]

I'll move on to systems in just a moment, but as you're speaking, an example that comes to my mind is Silicon Valley pre Twitter, Silicon Valley post X. Yeah. I feel like there was a let's take yoga, let's do market, right? You know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then when X happened, it was like cut 40, right? Everyone's coding for 90 hours a week.

[A]

It is a different level, you know, like, Elon's gonna be an interesting one because Elon is a crazy personality. And we've yet to see it. Doesn't seem to be ego driven. He has a. He has an ego, strong ego. But what's going to be interesting is to see if Elon keeps going down this path and if he begins to let go of Tesla and if Tesla, to me, the real story of whether Elon, you know, because he's obviously built some big organizations, he's been involved in PayPal and all these others, like, you know, if Tesla, who is built on the personality of Elon, can, can actually go to the next level without Elon, I, I think is really going to be the test of whether Elon got out of the way or if it's a completely personality driven company.

[B]

So it'll be a proof of his systems.

[A]

If it, I think it's a proof of his systems.

[B]

And then last with that, I think you've already answered this, but maybe you could just dive a little deeper. Is there room for both in a leader, personality and principle? And what does that look like?

[A]

Yeah, I think that, I think honestly it needs to be both. You know, in this day and age, it's important, I think, to have the personality to lead. But again, it goes back to, it has to transition. You can build on the personality, the back of the personality, but at some point, once the personality cannot hold the weight of the organization, systems and processes have to hold the weight of the organization. And then they just become a benefit to the organization by that personality. They should be able to ride the personality and the awareness of that personality, but shouldn't be reliant on it. And that's when those transition and succession plans are so vitally important. You know, it's important to understand. You know, you look at like a Walt Disney World and it's like that was built on a man's personality. It was not only a personality, it was the Persona of him. And he did such a great job. But again, it goes back to, I mean, Walt oftentimes turned to his brother Roy and would give so many accolades to him for building all the systems and processes and being the backbone of Disney. And they used his personality as long as it made sense to, but then he literally transitioned it into the personality of a mouse. I mean, it's like, it's pretty crazy how you look at the succession planning of Disney and it was like, how do you take the whole world's focus off of a man? And what they did was they put it on a mouse and now the mouse became this inanimate object that could stand the test of time. And they did in a brilliant, brilliant way.

[B]

I love that. Great analogy. All right, for systems, first question that came to my mind is, why are people so quick to undermine the brilliance of the US Empire? It's something you mentioned.

[A]

Yeah. Because oftentimes we look at the, the U.S. empire and because we're so close to it. So I think if you were to go back to the end of the Roman Empire or maybe even though you're going to find people that have dissent there, right, like they conquered lands, they overthrew other empires, there's going to be a negativity. So looking back on it, at it through the lens of history, we can find all the good in it. It's like we can even look at people like Alexander the Great and be like, wow, that was a great leader. It's like, no, Alexander was vicious and brutal and slaughtered lots of people. You know, it's like. But you can look back over time and part of it is just the American empires were so close and we haven't seen how it turns out yet. You know, so it's like we're relatively young, you know, we're hundreds of years old, not thousands of years old. And so I think that while we look at it is remarkable what we've accomplished, what we've done, what we've brought into the world, how we service world, which I think is all amazing. But an empire is not one that is a short window. It's, it's, it stands the test of time. And the question is, is, can the American Empire stand the test of time? Right? Like, how long will it last? Can it last? Can it be? Can it outlast something like the Roman Empire?

[B]

So maybe a lack of perspective is easy. My dad said he went to D.C. and he was getting coffee and he was just hanging out and he was watching a ton of just young, energetic people going back and forth. I know you spent time in Washington. I don't know. Do you have any general feelings about, like, systems and principles in Washington?

[A]

Yeah, Washington is remarkable. I spent a lot of time there. I sat on a subcommittee for finance, spent a lot of time there with our legislators, lots of time behind closed doors. And what I see is there's two sides of Washington in dc. You have the face, you have the personality of dc you have all the individual personalities. You have senators that represent their state, and you have congressmen that represent their state and their regions. And they have to hold a Persona. But I'll tell you that most of the time, when the doors close, most of them are back to just being who they are. I won't give their names, but I sat on a subcommittee for finance. And so in, you know, kind of the. In the committees, you have both sides of the aisle represented. And I was in the Russell building, so obviously senators and you'd walk in and you'd have CNBC and Fox News. And they'd all be like, kind of standing there and giving their commentary. They'd be getting asked questions, and then we would go in. So, you know, and you'd hear these senators, hyper, hyper, critical of the other senator, right? So, like, hyper, like just calling him out, like on Fox News or CNBC or, you know, cnn. And then we'd walk into it. But those who they just called out is now in that room, doors close, and you get to work. And what was interesting was there's this one senator from Ohio and one senator from Idaho who would just go at each other. And I would walk in, and the senator from Idaho and the senator from Ohio would sit down. They kind of shake it all off. They'd get into. And then, then they'd start asking questions like, so how's your kids? How you been? It's like it was this. This crazy experience of personality versus principle. And what I realized in D.C. was there's an underlying system, an underlying principle that everyone adheres to. You know, one of the most contentious times we've seen in our Nation's history was January 6, a few years ago, when the power transferred from Trump to Biden. And the thing that was unsettling about that was we were going against the very system of changing power. And, you know, so no matter where you sit on that story, you know, was it election fraud, was it overreach, whatever it is, the scary part about it was not that. The scary part about it was, is we had a period of time where we were questioning, do we follow the system? Right. And the system is the most important thing.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So principles, systems, adaptability, this one. My question is, I wanted to push you for an example in your life where, and you've probably touched on this previous, but you were required to employ adaptability.

[A]

When you are an organization and it has been built on your ideas, you kind of start thinking that if you go away from your ideas that the organization is going to fail. I've had so many people, man, there's so many examples in my own life, my own organizations.

[B]

Do an episode on it.

[A]

Yeah, I could do a full episode on it, but it's like in adaptability, you know, I'll give you. I'll give you a really good one real quick. So the American Association Private Lenders. I walked into that organization, it was already, you know, essentially, we're building it, it was growing. It had some kind of good old boy type leadership. Guys that were in the lending industry and I saw they were leading it in this way that it was very much like it's a. Culturally, I hated it because it was a good old way network. It was us four, no more type mentality. And I saw this spreadsheet. I asked him, where are we headed as an organization, guys? Like, what are we doing? I wasn't leading it, but someone else was leading it. I just had small ownership in it. And I said, guys, where are we going? And they gave me a spreadsheet of KPIs and you know, kind of directives. I said, who created these? This is really good. Who created these? And one of them took credit for it. And I said, you did this? And so I started asking questions and very quickly I realized like he didn't create it. So we get out of that meeting, I start walking around the office. There's four or five, maybe seven people employed at that time for aapl. And I'm asking, who created this? Who created this? I find a, a woman in the back corner that's kind of been like isolated. And finally I was pointed to her, her name is Linda. And I said, linda, did you create this? She said, yeah. I said, why? Why did you create this? She said, I just felt like we were not going in a direction. And I thought, well, maybe I could just at least show like some steps to get to where they wanted to go. She was like, I just made a guess of maybe where you guys want to go and here's the steps to do it. I said, her, I said, how did that get received? She said, well, not well. She's like, but it must have been presented if you're standing here with it. And I said, yeah, because I was asking what are the steps to get to where we want to go? And she said, yeah. She said, if you walk out of here with that sheet and we don't enforce it, she said, we're still not going to go anywhere. She was like that. She was like, I'm so frustrated because like we're not. And I said, well, what do you think is missing? She was like, systems and processes. She said, a systematic way to get there. She was like, you know, all of us don't actually know exactly where we're headed. And because we don't know exactly where we're headed, we don't even know the right steps to get there. She's like, I'd love for somebody just to give vision. And she was like, and then let's build the steps to get there. I said, do you think you're capable? She was like, not capable of the vision. She said, I'm capable of building the path to get there and executing. I said, okay, fair enough. Within the next 30 days, I'd fired everyone except for her, the marketing girl, and a salesperson. And today, Linda is the president and I'm the chairman of the American association of Private Lenders. Linda's the president. It's the largest organization of its kind. It's the largest aggregation of private capital in the world. The American association of Private Lenders has had massive impact on legislation, on all kinds of systems and processes in the lending world and the private lending world. And there's billions and billions and billions of dollars flowing through that industry. Now, Linda, I adapted to what she believed was best about the organization versus me, just kind of holding my ego of like, well, you know, we built it, and this is where we're headed. And Linda, still, she takes my vision. But in the end, Linda executes and she builds the path. And to me, it was one of those great moments where allowing and adapting to the people and their abilities around you allowed me to have the success I wanted. I could have out of ego. Just said, well, we're building it, and just keep doing your job and stuff like that. But it was one of those moments where. And I had a lot of people mad at me. I fired some people that really believed that. And what I did was I removed all ego out of the organization. And I removed the ego out of the organization. Then we actually adapted to the principles and systems that I knew would find success. But then we just executed on. Now it's. It's an amazing organization.

[B]

There's a part of the end of that story. Well, first of all, love it. I think I learned you solidify what you're saying through story so well, so I appreciate it. There's a part in the end of that story where it's like, oh, this almost seems counterintuitive, where, like, adaptability feels like you're getting rid of systems.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But then it's like, okay, so then there must be two types of systems. And there's probably more.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But there's systems that are built on principle or truth.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So these systems work.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And then there's systems that are built on ego.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because so many times you get into a place and you're like, well, why do we do this? Because that's how we do it.

[A]

Because I said so. Yeah. Right.

[B]

But why?

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Very interesting.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Two questions. First one, what is the antidote to a glory centric leader. And then the other one, if you build something that last you, it feels counterintuitive. The better I do my job, the more irrelevant I become. It's not a question, that's a thought. So any of those.

[A]

Oh, every one of those are really good. And I always say that I'll kind of just jump off on this. That point you just made on the better I do my job, the more irrelevant I become. But the not. But it doesn't. Here's the problem is that like we think that irrelevance means insignificance, and it doesn't. The more irrelevant you are, the more significance you gain. And so while, you know the pats on the back and the accolades are intoxicating, you have to play for something bigger. And so in legacy, when you're trying to build an organization that lasts, you don't have to become insignificant. Think about it. Is Phil Knight insignificant? No, he's the person who, who landed the deal with Michael Jordan. He's, you know, the guy who stepped outside of Converse and it's just like, it's, it's crazy, you know, what he's built. So he's not insignificant, but he might be irrelevant today. You know, like they don't. Nike doesn't need him to be the organization. So I think it's, it's a natural path of leaving the kind of short term dopamine hits that we get that make us feel great, those pats on the back and moving into this, like, long term of going like, I'm okay with making myself irrelevant, but in that I'm making myself significant. You don't have to put it all away. It's just an exchange. Right? Think about what Marcus Aurelius did. Think about what, you know, some of these great Roman leaders did. They, they, they're not insignificant. No, they're a, they're amazing piece along that pathway. They just became irrelevant, not needed, you know, not. And that, that's a great thing. The more you can create yourself a path to irrelevance in your business, the better you are doing your job. Thanks so much for being a part of the podcast and for listening today. Love to connect with you further. And you can connect with me on social media at E. Wilsonofficial on any of the social media channels.