← In & Around Podcasting
In & Around Podcasting
Creators Over Platforms: Listener Habits, Programmatic Ads, and the Power of Podcast Hosts
01:06:45
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A
Before we dive into the mountain of listener data and industry studies we have lined up for today, we have to start with some massive news. Rob. Our very own Mark Asquith was just named one of the inaugural Heroes of Indie Podcasting by Mercury Podcasts.
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B
Congratulations, Mark. Congratulations.
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A
Yay. Insert clapping Woo hoo. Mm. That was so fun. So we have a little bit of a press release here. Quote Mercury Podcast has today revealed the identity of the third and final inductee into its inaugural Heroes of Indie Podcasting hall of Fame, Mark Asquith, CEO of Rebel Base Media and the co creator of Captivate FM, the UK's leading podcast hosting and growth platform. The Heroes of Indie Podcasting is an annual initiative designed to honor individuals whose work has helped shape and strengthen the independent podcasting ecosystem. The announcement was made at Global's headquarters in London, where Mercury founder Liam Heffernan surprised Mark in person in front of his team by making a speech and showing a special presentation that included colleagues and industry peers sharing their kind words about Mark's contribution to podcasting. Mark was presented with Mercury's iconic trophy to mark the occasion. The win recognized Mark's extraordinary contribution to independent podcasting, both as a builder of essential podcast infrastructure and as one of the most respected voices in the global podcasting community. Speaking on his win, Mark said, quote, this is incredible. Genuinely, thank you. When Liam said this was an award for the mantle, I thought, this is going straight to the office because that's exactly where it belongs. It belongs to the team. I've known Liam a long time and we've been part of what feels like a real family in this industry, but not of what I do would mean anything without the people behind it. So I'm honored. And yes, this means everything, but I'm accepting it on behalf of everyone behind the scenes at Captivate and for every person who helped us get here. Mark Aswith is widely regarded as one of the most influential figures in independent podcasting. He has spent over a decade building the tools, platforms and communities that have given independent podcasters the infrastructure to grow, monetize and thrive. Today, Captivate FM sits at the heart of Rebel based medium, the UK Podcast Technology Group. Mark Leeds as CEO. The platform is used by tens of thousands of independent podcasters globally and is recognized for its growth centric approach built by a podcaster for podcasters. Liam Heffernan, founder of Mercury Podcast, said, when we launched the Heroes of Indie Podcasting, we said the third inductee was a certified legend and Mark Asquith is exactly that. He has spent years building the infrastructure that independent podcasters rely on every day and doing it in a way that consistently puts creators first. We couldn't be prouder to honor him as one of the inaugural heroes. The Heroes of Indie Podcasting was created by Mercury Podcast to celebrate the individuals whose work has helped build, shape, and sustain the independent podcasting ecosystem. This concludes the inaugural 2026 inductees as Ariel Nissenblatt, founder of Earbuds Podcast Collective, Emma Turner, co founder of Independent Podcast Awards, and Mark Asquith, CEO, Rebel Babies Media. Captivate F. Each hero receives one of Mercury's newly unveiled woe fees with the new inductees to be celebrated annually. Yay.
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B
Yay, Mark. Congratulations, dude. Very, very well done. Yes, very well earned. Very proud for Mark to have been inducted. So congratulations. And into Ariel and Emma as well.
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A
Congrats all the way around. All right, and now raising a glass to Mark before we dive into the deep end of heavy data and studies.
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B
Yes, pull the car over. Do not pull the car over. Operating heavy machinery while listening to this. We're going to deep dive into lots of data. Unless, of course, that's your thing, then zoom away.
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A
Yes, totally. It's not just for the Prince and OG. This shows the. Hey. Welcome to in and Around Podcasting, the podcast industry show that brings you a range of powerful podcasting perspectives. I'm Elsie Escobar from Captivate, joined today by our vice president of podcast relations at Captivate, Rob Walsh. We are diving into a whole bunch of fresh industry studies and listener statistics shaping the conversation across podcasting this week. So let's see where this goes.
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B
Hey, good generic time of the day,
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A
Elsa, because we haven't talked for so long.
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B
Yes. It's been a few episodes.
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A
Yeah, this all came out when we. We're not talking.
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B
Yes. So a bunch of stuff. A bunch of data, which is good. Thanks to everybody. We're about to talk about data here. Sounds profitable. Edison, Westwood One, Cumulus, Signal Hill. So lots of data here that we're going to go through.
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A
So let's go ahead and start with the podcast Atlas Research from. Sounds profitable. This is a unique release. It's one of the very first ones that has been put out there, and it was really more encompassing around creator information in its totality and how everything informs one another. So it wasn't necessarily just podcasting for pod, like in the way that usually it is spoken about. And these are just bullet points that I kind of wrote down. I was like listening. I got the replay. I was taking notes down and These are just a little bit of the sort of bullet points that really popped out at me. So it's a little more through my point of view. I would suggest everybody, you guys go check it out yourselves and then you can glean information from it. But one of the key components there is that the creator, not the platform, is the destination for audiences, meaning they follow you all the places. So 73% of listeners would follow their favorite host from audio to video and vice versa, actually, also.
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B
Was it vice versa, though?
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A
No, I'm saying vice versa in the sense that there is like a lot
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B
of listeners would follow. Right. If it was video. But the question is, if they were video, would they fall into audio? I just wonder.
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A
Yeah, I think that part of this is because of the like, I think we're going to look at some of this data here and you'll see that there is a. There is a case to be set for that. So 71% would follow them from long form episodes to short clips.
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B
Yeah. And that's one. I really wonder what percent would follow from short video clips to long form audio.
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A
I think that they do talk about that in there. I don't think I have the. I didn't think I brought.
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B
I didn't see that.
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A
Audio builds trust. Only 31% of audio podcast prime. So that was, that was another study from Sounds Profitable platforms. Most engaged users question advertising claims most or all of the time, compared with 42% of Facebook primes and 43% of X primes. Which just means that the audio podcasters are the ones that they get, you know, their audiences question them less.
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B
When you go and say, hey, this is going to make your smile wider and brighter.
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A
Yes, totally.
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B
Only 31% go, really? If it's a podcast listener, they're like, yeah, okay, that means 69% said, all right, I'm getting a wider and brighter smile.
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A
That's right. It's funny how like X over there is. Is sort of like the highest, at least from here, like 43%. Like over. More people are questioning. Well, we're hoping people on next are like, what are you saying?
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B
They're both skeptical group. Yeah, but it means there's more trust in. Ultimately what this comes down to is means is more trust. They trust the podcast podcaster. Their audiences do. More often than someone who's reading your X posts or your Facebook posts for that matter.
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A
Correct? Yeah, absolutely. In that venue. Okay. And then 77% of podcast listeners report giving audio their full or near full attention, which is something we always want
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B
yeah, but I was surprised about that. Cause I thought a lot of people would be, you know, you're driving in the car, I guess if they're saying they're giving it its full attention. But are you, Are you giving it its full attention when you're driving in the car? I mean, I am. It's the only thing I'm listening to is the only thing I'm consuming. But I am sure as heck also paying attention to the road.
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A
It's a different conversation, Rob, because you know how there's that. I think Heather Ordover had a term she used to call it cognitive anchoring. That's what it was. That's right. And so what she was talking about, her show is craft. Craft lit. Right. So what she would do is she started to figure out that people would do a lot of crochet or knitting and they would anchor their brains by this other thing. And that's what happens, I feel, when driving, even though you're paying attention to the road, you're cognitively anchored in a thing that forces your brain to be focused, to really hear stuff.
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B
Maybe what they're saying here is digitally you're giving your full digital attention to audio and you're not reading X and you're not looking at TikTok or scrolling or reading posts that digitally, when you're listening to podcasts, 77%, that's it. You might be mowing the yard, you might be walking the dog, but digitally you're locked in.
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A
Yeah. You're not multitasking out with your brain. Totally. Audio reaches people when video can't, which we all know. 78% of audio listening happens during hands busy activities like commuting, exercising and chores, versus 55% for video. And then he also brought some information here for newsletters. It was a little bit towards the end of it. 39% of podcast consumers subscribe to at least one newsletter. 87% of subscribers say newsletters lead them back to podcast episodes, at least sometimes. And this is the information, I think, that you were asking about. This is the short clips drive discovery part of it. 84% of people who watch podcast clips say that a clip leads them to become a regular listener of the full show, at least sometimes.
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B
Yeah. What I was really wondering is like, people that watch short videos on TikTok and Instagram that aren't clips of the podcast, but they're a tiktoker. Right. A regular tiktoker whose video content never is more than a minute long, and they launch a podcast. How much of that audience, of that tiktoker is going to follow over to long form audio. That's what I'd really like. So that's a little different than this. So my question is how well does that audience follow over to long form audio or even long form video for that matter?
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A
I guess long form video and to see if they do choose to consume something else.
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B
And I, I mean there was a point in time when we had, I remember there was a pod, a social media influencer, I won't name names, who had 60 million followers on social media between YouTube and, and Facebook and everything else. And his podcast audience was 41,000. Now 41,000 is really good, but it's not 60 million. And that also goes to the point of does 20 million subscribers on YouTube mean anything? Right. When my kid was running around the house going subscribe to PewDiePie. Subscribe to PewDiePie. A lot of times they just got subscribes, they didn't get audience.
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A
Yeah, they just started moving there. I think that part of what I gathered from the story is that there is a holistic view of how to grow your territory, if you will, like you're you, you grow your entire landmass and that is how you expand whatever that message is. Right?
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B
Yeah. And I'm not being anti clip here and I'm not saying, you know, again, clips of your podcast, a snippet of your show, something that's controversial and entertaining, funny, sad, emotionally grabbing, that happened in an episode putting out as a clip onto these TikTok or Instagram or X or wherever people are watching these short form clips. It's a great way to bring a new audience into your show. I was just curious about people that hadn't have a podcast if they were these tiktokers, how many of those translated over? And I don't think I didn't see that information. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see that.
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A
I'm not sure that that specific conversation was had. And I think it's one that is worth having too. I saw on threads, I was just, you know, when I was in there, somebody that had a fairly substantial. I just very quickly scanned what their profile was and they had asked the question, if I start a podcast, what advice would you give me? Something like that. And they were starting to have a lot of people who were going to give them advice and they have 660k on TikTok, it's a pop culture account. And they just said, what advice would you give me if I started a Podcast. And it's one of those things where I'm just thinking back now, now that you brought this up, I wonder how much of that 660k from TikTok would convert to a podcast. Because the advice that I gave them was, is a podcast the best distribution channel for whatever goal you have, right? Because I don't know, I don't know why they're starting a podcast.
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B
My goal for them, if they were to ask me, I would say set your goal at 1% of your current audience. If you can get to 6600 on an episode, I go, you've done really well. And I go, that should be your initial goal. Is that 1% of your TikTok number? That's my gut, based on that little bit of information.
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A
And mind you though, in this study, one of the things that really called my attention is the fact that the power the creator has to pull their audiences, especially their existing audiences, to different types of media. And that I have experienced myself. Like, I know that this is true. It's. It's the conversation that I'm having all the time. Like, a lot of folks are looking for the information. Yes, there are a lot of folks who are looking for that one solution that you provide. But a lot of people will jump from thing to thing to follow you as a creator and as somebody who they connect with. And it doesn't matter if you're going to be doing audio podcasts, if you're doing videos, if you're doing clips, if you're doing YouTube, TikTok, whatever, they will follow you, they'll sign up, they'll do all the things once they are locked into you. It's something that I know that I have taught for a long time and I called it from show to ecosystem, building your ecosystem. It's what I used to teach with my mentorship experience. I've taught this whole entire time because we couldn't just bank on growing the audience just with the audio podcasts. And I found that people engaged with me in so many different other channels. I was like, you all can do this too. You need to speak to your audience, where they are at that point. And they do have this advertiser's roadmap on the deck, which for the podcast atlas. You guys should definitely check this out. It has really a high level sort of understanding of what he calls or what the sounds profitable here calls territory, which is like the, you know, either clips or YouTube or TikTok or Facebook. And then he, Tom Webster has best at, you know, what Those are then the weakest at. And then use. Use for which is a little bit more aimed here to the advertisers so that they understand what each of these distribution channels is best for. And it really informs. I think it really clarifies even how you as a creator can think about if you're selling content or if you're trying to get conversions on something, which channel actually will more than likely bring that to you versus other channels. If you're looking to make money right now, as in like, you need a hundred dollars in your bank account tomorrow, one of these channels is gonna serve you better than others.
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B
Well, podcasting is not the channel for a hundred dollars tomorrow.
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A
Yeah, exactly. And so you just have to know what channel it is and what you need. But also, I just got a client, Rob, that I had never worked with before that was part of the she podcast community, gosh, like 10 years ago. And she just. All of a sudden I opened up my thing and I had a booked client. And I was like, who's. What, what is this? And I looked and I'm like, oh, oh my gosh. I have not seen her, I have not talked to her in almost a decade. But that's like, that's what podcasting does. Because I'm not promoting even the service. I don't, I don't. I mean, that's available. You can hire me on one on one, that's easy. But I'm not doing active marketing on any of this stuff. And I haven't like, she just remembered me. And that's just because of podcasting. Right. So that's a long tail way of thinking about what a podcast does, that kind of thing where you don't need me to market to you because you know me so you in quote, know me so well.
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B
Well, podcasting definitely builds a bigger, longer term relationship with your audience because there's more time. You have more time to be more intimate with your audience and they get
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A
to know you a little deeper and because they hear you really, truly talk about all this stuff. So one of the things that Tom really talked about was the difference between audio and video. So as we were just talking about that, which I really loved the his term transactional surfaces. And he said, well, within this video outperforms audio on immediate actions, purchases, promo code use and clicks. The study though, and therefore Tom argued that this is largely because video has more transactional surfaces. So they have more buttons and links and clickable interfaces, not because it creates more trust. In fact, audio and video score nearly identical on trust in that audio often happens away from screens. About 78% of listening happens during hands on busy activities, making direct response metrics an incomplete way to evaluate its effects. And I agree with that. How many times have you been, you know, mowing the grass and they're like sign up for my thing and you're like, I'm in the middle of.
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B
Or conversely, how many times have you been watching a video and you want to click the skip button but clicked on the ad instead and it popped up and drove you to the site and then you're like, ugh. Right. So there's also the inadvertent click throughs on video because you missed the skip button.
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Yep. Know it. That is totally true. Or you do it a little too fast. You know how like you have to wait five seconds.
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B
Yeah.
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And then I'm sitting there going like. And you press it a little too fast and you end up at the thing. Absolutely. Other key findings as it pertains to advertising. 46% of ad supported platform users have ever purchased something recommended by a creator. 72% of podcast driven purchases are from products under $300. Oh my gosh, TikTok. That's crazy. I mean, that's a lot.
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B
No, no, but conversely, 28% of podcast driven purchases are for products over $300. I mean you can look at it that way, that's still a good percentage. It's over a quarter of podcast driven purchases are over $300. That's another positive way to look at that.
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A
This is true. TikTok has the highest reported immediate purchase rate at 22% of its highly engaged users. And now, by the way, Rob, TikTok is killing it out there for like most brands. I mean, and, and I'm not talking about, I mean for anything and everything. TikTok Shop is how a lot of businesses are literally making it nowadays. Especially like, because that's where they're selling. I don't even have TikTok. I don't mind not having it. I'm curious how all of this works, but it seems like some pretty multimillion dollar brands are killing it on TikTok shop right now. Facebook still provides an enormous reach. 80% monthly reach and 88% daily use among those monthly users. Yikes. Despite having the highest trust deficits in the study. And I have also found this to be true. You know, I've done a little bit of promotion. I started to like tell people more things that I'm doing, especially the stuff that we're doing at Captivate and all of these things. And I have some tracking links that I'm using myself just to kind of gauge the vibe out in all of these social spaces. And Facebook, hands down, Rob is the biggest conversion to get people to click through and do stuff. It's like astounding to me because I never. I'm never on Facebook. I just posted it there. Cause I'm like, might as well post it here, you know?
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B
Well, you know, what I found is if I'm posting something that's business related, Facebook gets okay results. But if it's anything that's personal, I get so much more interaction on Facebook than I do on any other channels. I try to post across all and take a look as well. But yeah, if there's anything personal in it, then the Facebook audience tends to be more engaged. But if it's purely a business I'm talking about whatever, it might be purely like talking about AI versus something like that inside the space, then LinkedIn tends to be more interactive.
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A
But I also wrote a piece which I forgot to share here. I don't think we talked about it, but I decided to, like, write stuff about audio and video. And I gave a little, like, quick history lesson. Not really a lesson, but more like an overview of the historical context. And for whatever reason, it resonated with a lot of people. I didn't even, like, do it on purpose. I just was like, I wanted to get it out of my head. And I'm like, I'm gonna put this out. And it got a lot of people talking about it. And when I looked at the stats of people coming to read it, the majority of it was coming from Facebook. And I was really stunned by that. And it was a little more industry focused, but I think it just resonated with the audience that I have there too, for whatever reason. But I generally agree with your assessment of the personal part on Facebook, so. And then the last thing is that the report concludes that brands get the strongest results by combining audio, video clips, newsletters, and social rather than relying on a single platform, because no single territory captures the full value of the audience, which I think that's also true. If you want the reach, you gotta. It's not like you have to constantly be everywhere, but if there is a specific push that you need people to see or hear or consume or take action on, you gotta work harder. You just have to.
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B
It's almost like, what did we used to say? Oh, yeah, be everywhere.
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A
Yes, you used to say that all the time. All right, so let's Move to the next study. And Rob, let's skip over to the podcast advertising discussions. One, let's go to the Westwood One one and we can come back to. Depending on that, we can come Back to the Edison one.
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B
This is a report just released, Westwood One Cumulus in combination with Signal Hill that is titled 16th Edition of the Cumulus Media and Signal Hill Insights podcast download spring 2026 report. And one of the key takeaways is that spending intentions hit a 12 year high among ad agencies and marketers. I. E. More people than ever before are intending to buy ads on podcasts. And this was the push with the IAB starting in the fall of 2014. Those early calls for the podcast working group chaired by Rocky Thomas, Todd Cochran and myself and Mark and Robert over at podtrack. I remember we were talking about this. The whole push was to make podcast advertising more attractive to ad buyers, to give them CYA for the media buyers, basically by getting the metrics to be close from one service to another. And I want to point this out because there's going to be some IAB updates here in future episodes. But the IAB guideline has never been about getting it perfect across every podcast platform where a hundred over here is 100 over there is 100 over there. It's been, well, it's 100 here, maybe it's 101 there, 99 there. Because if you try to make it uniform and perfect, then people can game the system really quickly and then you have uniform and then all the bananas die from the same fungus. So I digress. But I just want to bring it back to what the IB was about and why we're trying to do and what we were trying to do. And that was make it so that people felt comfortable, media buyers felt comfortable buying and they didn't get fired for buying on this from this company or that company because the numbers were bogus. So long way around to get back to this report. According to Westwood One survey, in September 2015, when they were looking at advertiser perceptions of podcasting, the numbers were bleak. This was September 2015. How likely are you to consider advertising in podcasts in the next six months? Only 18% were. How likely are you to actually advertise in podcasts in the coming six months? 10%. Do you currently advertise in podcasts? Only 15%. And then have you and your colleagues discuss podcast advertising for potential media investment? Right. This is just discussing it. And that was at 41%. So that's September 2015. I'd say a year after we started on IAB, we hadn't released anything yet. Now remember, iOS 8 and serial launched in September 2014 and October 2014 respectively. So that 18% number, that's one year after serial launched. It was not really until 2019 that companies were actually certified to the IAB guidelines. So in 2019 the numbers were looking better. How likely again were you to consider it in 2019? That number may into 2019, that number had jumped to 42% from 18. How likely are you to actually advertise in podcasts? In the coming six months, that number went from 10% to 34%, so over triple. And then do you currently advertise in podcasts? That went from 15% to. To 39%. So nice big increase. And then finally have you and your colleagues discuss podcast advertising, potential media, and it went from 41% to 75%. Good increases there. That's when the IME first got people certified. And then now In June of 2026, the numbers look much, much better. How likely are you to consider advertising the next six months? Now the number's at 75%. How likely are you to actually advertise in podcasting? Coming six months now the number's at 74%. This is June 2026. And then do you currently advertise in podcasting? That number's at 76%, up from 15% in 2015. And then finally have you and your colleagues discuss podcast advertising? And that number's at 93% from 41. So it's basically ubiquitous. Yes, everybody's discussing it. You know, those are the big things that we tried in IBM pushed and I think it really has come to fruition that podcasting is now talked about ubiquitously by media buyers. And three quarters are considering it in the next six months, will actually do it in the next six months, and are currently doing it up from around 18, between 10 and 18% in 2015. So kudos there.
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A
Let's go back a little bit to the leading headline there for that whole thing is that the key takeaway really is that it has hit a 12 year high, right? Like that's the messaging or like the big headline that's going out there. And this is talking about the advertising side of things. Basically the conversations that we see here, the advertiser perceptions, this is all internal meaning. The 93% are talking about this time that they want to possibly advertise on podcasts, but there is conversations from the creator sides that I've seen that are like, this seems like A really high number. I'm not experiencing that from the creator side. Yeah, we're not feeling that. We have all these advertisers wanting our show.
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B
Okay. So how advertisers are buying will depend on the size of the shows. The ones that are doing host red, unfortunately, they've been inching that bar up. Right. It used to be 5k, then it went to 10k, then it went to 20k. So when I interviewed Dan Grainger, Oxford, and I asked him, you know, what are you looking for for host red? That number, he said 50k. Right. So yes, there are some people are definitely not getting the host reds. A lot of that money is going to some of the bigger shows. But then there is programmatic ads and those are the ads that are getting out to show pretty much of any size. So it comes down to if you want advertising and podcasting, programmatic ads are available.
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A
Right.
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B
We have it at Captivate. Shows of any size can get ads. If you want host red, that's where the marketplace is. You might have to do direct connection. And we are starting to do some host red as well. Captivate. And we're, you know, we're looking at shows in the 5k and 10k range on the lower side for the host red and then working with advertisers to get that in. But there is, you do need to have a certain size for host red because the advertisers, unless it's in a niche. Right. Very niche based advertisers, you can do a direct relationship, you can get some of those advertisers. But what these surveys are talking about are they're talking to the bigger, they're talking more to the agencies. So this is more about advertisers at agencies, media buyer companies. This is the Oxford Road, the group ones, the publicists, the all the different big companies that are out there, agencies hold codes. What are their impressions? And some of those hold codes don't even buy host red. Some of those hold calls only buy programmatic. Progressive is out there buying mostly programmatic. They have their pre produced ad that they want to run across podcasts rather than host trends.
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A
Yeah. And so would you say that this sort of data or this is maybe let's say these conversations are actually happening. Like there's like all of these brands, all of these companies are looking to advertise, They've got the cash, they want to invest it in this type of advertising. Those conversations are happening, let's say right now in July 2026. When is that money going to Be in, dispersed around. When is that money going to start to be felt by the industry?
- [32:24]
B
Those campaigns will be run in the next three months, three to six months, with the money coming out in six to nine months. Right. There's always a delay, right? Yes. So campaigns will start running that people are talking about today. They'll start running and typically in three to six months from those conversations starting sometimes a little bit sooner, but for the most part, three to six months. And then the money follows with a delay of a couple months after that. All right, so some of that money will be this year.
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A
Yeah, yeah. There's like, it's not an immediate kind of sense to it. It's sort of like the. The vibes out there, the conversations are happening, and we'll start to see sort of like how that affects everything else. All right, so tell me some of the key takeaways that you saw from this.
- [33:09]
B
So another one was once you're in, you're in. And this is talking about listeners. So once you start listening, you really start listening. And they go. Even podcast newcomers listening less than one year consume nearly as many episodes a week as podcast pioneers. And they define podcast pioneers as four plus years.
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A
Wow.
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B
Okay, can I just say this?
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A
Yes.
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B
If you've been listening to podcasts for just four years, that is not pioneer status. Four years out of 22 years of podcasting, if you applied that same ratio to the US History, that would be saying those of you living in the U.S. in 1980 are pioneers in the U.S. no, in the U.S. the pioneer period is generally accepted as ending in 1890. If you take 1890 and you minus out 1776, you take that number, divide it by 250, because we're 250 years old and times that by 22 years for podcasting, that gives you 10 years. Add it to 2004, that's 2014. And as that's the end of the pioneer period in podcasting, which ironically or coincidentally is when iOS8 went native on the iPhone. So, yeah, I know that's an interesting coincidence or whatever, but something to consider. That would be where I end the podcast Pioneer Period, 2014. If you were prior to that, someone's going to say to me, rob, I was podcasting in January of 2005. Well, then you are at Jamestown. Welcome. All right. But yes, the pioneer period prior to iOS8 launching, that's is very simple. That's the, hey, what's this purple icon on my phone and why can't I delete it? Period. That was the big inflection point. And it wasn't serial. Moving on audio storms into smart TVs. They say podcast consumers are more likely to listen to am, FM radio and music streaming on a smart TV than traditional tv. Yeah, well, yeah. Okay. How do you strip it?
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A
Yeah.
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B
All right.
- [35:20]
A
How do you even do that?
- [35:22]
B
Okay, I will go agree with that. Those who prefer video components are more likely to listen to a chatcast podcast. So while the time spent between narrative and chatcast podcasts are fairly 50, 50, those who prefer audio only spend more time with narrative podcasts. So let me rephrase that. If you are watching a podcast, you're probably watching Joe Rogan or Theo Vaughn or someone like that. And if you're listening to a podcast, it's a good chance. It's probably a true crime if that's what you're just doing. When I look at that, that's what I break that down to. A lot of the true crime podcasts are just audio because it's really hard. And history podcasts, which are really hard to do as video. And it's a lot easier to do the all in podcast. It's a lot easier to do the Joe Rogan podcast or Dio Vaughan or as a video podcast. So there's a lot less production work, and that's the narrative podcast. A lot more production work. If you wanted to do that as video, a lot easier to do it as audio. And by the way, podcasts that are geared towards women tend to be more popular on audio for the simple fact that women, especially women that have children, are so darn busy that they only have the time for audio.
- [36:39]
A
And also the interruptions. Rob, I was just talking to. I forgot who I was just talking to. Where? Oh, yeah, there's one of our podcasters that has been engaging with us because of the programmatic release. And she was like, yeah, I was gonna attend to do this thing, but I have a seven month old and I very distinctly remember when I was recording with Jess, we were recording audio and I had May coming in and interrupting me basically the whole time. And so I was recording and being smart and then like swatting her away or like trying to quiet her or
- [37:12]
B
giving her stuff, you know, gently nudging. Not swatting. Gently nudging.
- [37:16]
A
Gently nudging, yes. And then I would breastfeed her while we were recording, you know that she would sneak in and out and do all this stuff. And I. I mean, you can't. You have to do it how you want to do it. And I very also distinctly remember With Jessica saying we're gonna have. We had the crappiest audio at the beginning, even though we were in quote, teaching podcasting because if we had to wait to be perfect, we would have never done it. I was recording in the kitchen. In the kitchen with no carpet, with, with echo. Because it's the only time I could do it.
- [37:55]
B
No, no. And again, that all comes back to why the different podcasts. Some are more popular in video, some are more popular with audio. Why people have spent those times. Again, there's more time in the day to consume audio. And if you're really busy, guess which one gets consumed. Weekly podcast consumers don't just listen to popular podcasts. So they said weekly podcast consumers say they spend a third of their time with indie podcasts. Yes, they spend more time with some of the bigger ones, but. And when you do any of these surveys, that's these, those bigger ones are going to skew things. But at least they're showing that, hey, there's a third of the time they're spending is with the indie podcast. Like this show. Right. And their definition of indie podcasts, I think, was it one of them? The definition they said of indie podcast was basically smaller shows. That was what. That was how they phrased it. Yeah, it was. Was it the sounds profitable or was it the Edison one of the reports? That was what it was. Maybe it was the Edison report. Those who prefer audio only podcasts are listening more outside the home and on mobile devices. Those who prefer audio only listen more in the car or truck and on mobile devices such as smartphones. Yeah, again, what we've always said, right? More time in the data to listen. Do it while you're commuting, working out, walking the dog, doing yard work. I'll probably not the normal one where I'll be sitting at my desk and I'll have some podcast playing on my HomePod. But for the most part, if there's a podcast I'm really interested in, I want to make sure I give it 100% focus. Yeah, I'm listening with my earbuds, with my phone while I'm out even grocery shopping. Podcast hosts are two times more influential than social media creators.
- [39:35]
A
Woo hoo. Well, that goes to the data with the podcast atlas too. Right. Because those are the ones that follow you everywhere, which is like you being influential. Right. That people want to know, want to follow you and see what you are doing in all the places.
- [39:52]
B
Right. We have more time in an audio podcast to get into our intimate details. We can talk about the fact that two nights ago and the night before that, when I woke up, there was a bat flying around my house in my bedroom. You know, you can get into those kinds of details, which by the way, when your wife tells you there's something in the room and you say, no, there's not, and there's something in the room, no, honey, you're imagining it. Turn your light on and you turn the light on and there's a bat flying around the house. I'm probably going to hear about that for a long time. Podcast advertising captures hard to reach ad free video streamers. So weekly podcast consumers are also heavy viewers of ad free video streaming services like Netflix and Amazon prime and ad free. And I don't think that's surprising to anyone. Podcasting has always been an on demand medium. And if you're choosing on demand audio, why would you not choose on demand video? That's just how your mindset works. I remember a long time ago we did a campaign for Netflix. When they first started advertising, they just launched their streaming service. This was when they were just transitioning from having just DVDs and they were adding the streaming. They didn't want to pay a cpm, so they negotiated out a CPA deal and we blew through their budget in like a week, less than a week from the signups. And they were like, stop it. End of the campaign. Stop it. No Moss, no mas. We're out of money.
- [41:14]
A
Yeah.
- [41:16]
B
Yeah. So podcast listeners liking Netflix and Amazon prime in that we've seen that for years. And then advertisers adoption of podcast ads continues to grow at breakness Peace. And we talked about that at the beginning and that was the use of podcasts jumped from 15% to 76%. Incredible jump since 2015. And we just. That's great because that helps support podcasters and to make more content. And then finally, I like this one from the list below, whose influence matters most to you? So they said you got to pick one. And this was percentage of weekly podcast consumers. So they asked the people that define themselves as weekly podcast consumers whose influence matters Most to you? AM FM radio hosts only got 10%. TV movie celebrities 15% Eat that, Ryan Reynolds social media influences 24% Take that, Kim Kardashian podcast host 52%. Yay.
- [42:19]
A
Yay.
- [42:19]
B
Podcast hosts. We are the more influential.
- [42:22]
A
There's a part of me when I read that that's a massive amount of responsibility and I think that there's the understanding of that power. I don't think as podcasters we have truly Understood. Because I think TV and movie celebrities, even some social media influencers, are working with PR agencies. They kind of understand things they can and cannot say. They are much more, you know, in. In their PR things when they're having their movies coming out. Like, there's. There's a level of training that understand the type of influence they have with every action that they take. And yet they don't have as much influence as podcast hosts do. And yet podcast hosts are just not taking that in. I feel there. There's an element of just saying, like, I can just do whatever I want when they understand that, when they say something with this kind of knowledge. 52%. To influence people that are consuming your content, that's a ton of responsibility that you have to get yourself together and to not be saying stupid stuff that's not based on reality and truth.
- [43:38]
B
You gotta see that with great power comes great responsibility.
- [43:41]
A
Absolutely, y'.
- [43:42]
B
All. Okay, so they had a question. Another one. Another survey question was, when you start listening to a new podcast, do you listen to only current episodes, or do you go back and listen to all older ones? And this is the percent who said they go back and listen to older ones. Men, 55%, women, 63%. Which is it like in my household where my wife is much more likely to bring up something from the past than I am?
- [44:11]
A
Oh, my God. It's the opposite on this side of the neck of the woods, where I can't remember what happened yesterday, but somebody else that lives with me remembers all the things.
- [44:23]
B
Yeah, I joke with my wife. We used to joke when we first got married that when we got older and retired, we'd go and dig up bones from dinosaurs. And then one day we were arguing, and she said something from the past. I go, so we're already retired then? Because you're digging up the past. Oh, that didn't go well in the moment, but I thought it was funny.
- [44:41]
A
I'm sure it didn't. I just. Hey, listen, it doesn't go well with me either. I always end up going like, wait, why are we talking about this again? I forgot.
- [44:51]
B
Moving on to. Now, thinking of the listening you did to the podcast you listened to the most last week. So let me say that again. Now, thinking of the listening you did to the podcast you listened to the most last week, how many minutes did you spend with the following platforms? Apple podcasts came in at 10%, Spotify at 25, and YouTube at 65%. Yeah. And that was a share of minutes spent listening, not watching. So again, we've mentioned briefly that YouTube has been pivoting a little bit. While everyone else was focusing on video, YouTube had been doing some pivoting to make it easier to listen to podcasts on their platform. A lot of things they've done this year have been around that. And the survey kind of that one hit. Wow. Okay, question for the podcast you started consuming on YouTube. Why do you continue to watch, listen to any. All of them on YouTube. And this is weekly podcast consumers. And they said 4% I don't watch listen to podcasts elsewhere. So that was like YouTube's the only place. 4%. 9% said, these podcasts are not available elsewhere. All right, so they're kind of locked in. So they're not really podcasts. 13% I manage my podcast subscriptions on YouTube. That's their primary place. 16% said, I like YouTube autoplay feature. And that one made me go, huh.
- [46:19]
A
All right.
- [46:20]
B
Maybe they just liked the fact that it goes from one to the next to the next and they just sit there and eat cheese doodles and drink Mountain Dew. I don't know what that means. 17% said, I like the comments and or community on YouTube. Has that. 17% read the comments on YouTube. Okay.
- [46:40]
A
I think that it's the. It really. I, I get that. I totally get that. Because it's so much easier to engage with a podcaster when you're consuming the content right there. And if they say something, you immediately can go like, well, that's not blah, blah.
- [46:55]
B
Right, I understand that too. And that is something that we've always missed in podcasting. You know, that was why we used to talk all the time about, you know, having a G account, you know, when they was those communities trying to build up these different communities, Facebook communities, other communities where people could gather that are listeners and comment on episodes and you could reply to them. And you know, that is missed outside when people are just listening on the audio apps, they're just not that. Comments, feedback. 18% said, YouTube is my primary destination for info and entertainment. Okay. Oh, yeah. And then 23% said they like the video part of the podcasts. But interestingly, that means over 75% really didn't care about the video parts is another way to look at that. Just some of the reasons about why they. They continue to watch them on YouTube.
- [47:52]
A
Yeah, that's kind of mind blowing in some ways there for. And I've seen, I think one of the bits of the conversation that I've seen out in this space is that there's obviously a lot of podcast consumers that have popped into the scene, you know, within the last three to four years and they don't have an understanding of consuming podcasts outside of places like YouTube and Spotify. Like, they don't know that there is other places to consume podcasts. And so there is, I think, a leaning towards that end of it. I did see a conversation from somebody who asked, where is your favorite place to consume podcasts? That's not Spotify. Because they were looking for somewhere else to consume and they didn't realize that there are standalone apps that only play podcasts. Because when I put that, my podcast app of choice is Overcast. And so his question for me was, can you listen to music in that? And I realized when he said that, oh, he, this person is in a place that has all the things. So he's going in there, going to listen to audiobooks, to listen to podcasts, to listen to music, which is sort of what YouTube does too. You can go to YouTube to watch educational videos and YouTube shorts and listen to music and also have podcast episodes there. And so it all kind of gets mushed together and they're looking for like a one stop shop, which is kind of what Netflix wants to do. But I don't think Netflix is doing a good job at it. At least now that's not a destination for that. To me.
- [49:37]
B
I'm reading more and more. Oh, these podcasts are being consumed over at Netflix. But it's a small number. It's such a small number. None of them ever pop up when I look at Netflix. Right, you're looking at recommendations on Netflix. You have to be a fan of those shows and be following. Yeah, I mean, it's handfuls of shows. It's not a lot. It's not an open ecosystem like Spotify. At least almost all the podcasts are there. You know, Apple podcasts, literally all the podcasts are there. And YouTube, again, it's not all the podcasts either. And then most of the podcasts that are on YouTube are not video consumption. So Spotify at least is an audio first platform. So it does sync better with podcasts. But yes, Overcast would be what I would have recommended, especially if they had listened, you know, I would tell them, no, it doesn't have music. But if you're a heavy podcast listener, it's got some great tools to speed up with pitch shift and make the audio sound better, Speeding it up so you can get through more episodes. You know, we went deep on these two reports and we don't want to shortchange Edison. So we're going to do Edison the next episode and we're going to get through some of the other items here. You did a couple of sessions with Danny and do you have any questions that came out of those sessions?
- [50:51]
A
I. Yeah, so some of the questions that came out of, you know, some of the stuff that we've done out there. One of the questions that came up is my podcast has consistently 30k downloads a month and over 10,000 unique listeners, but the content is released daily. Where does that leave me? And this question came into when we were doing our livestream with Dane Cardio, which was are you ready for podcast ads? And this question actually came up after we've finished. So this was posted in the comments and from LGHost2570 and you had something to say about that, Rob, which I think would be really helpful to them.
- [51:33]
B
Yeah, that is really where programmatic ads plays the best. Because what you're looking at is a lot of different listeners, but also not a high enough number per episode. Right. If you're doing a daily show and you're doing 30k downloads a month, you're under a thousand downloads an episode. So this is where programmatic ads, you can make some good bank on programmatic ads depending on how long the episodes are and how many ads you're willing to put in. Which, you know, that comes back to people like, well, what's the right amount of ad load that you can put in an episode? Thinking that most ads come in at 30 seconds, right? If you have an hour long episode and you put an ad break at and you do two pre rolls, you do two at 15, two at 30, two at 45 and then two more into post roll. Or some people will do three at 20 and three at 40, but basically six mid rolls, two pre, two post, that is five minutes of ad content that goes with 60 minutes of audio. To put that in perspective, if you take a typical airtime on radio, airtime on radio is about 45 minutes of content, 15 minutes of ads, but that's 45. If you stretch that to 60, that means 22 minutes of ads. So for an hour of content on radio, you're typically looking at 22 minutes of ads. Whereas here, what we're talking about for that ad load I just mentioned, it's five minutes. So big difference, 22 versus 5. So you're not overloading it at that level. And I've seen people do a lot more ads than that, but that's a good standard number. When I Look across the board if you want, start lower, raise it up over time on the programmatic. But at five minutes worth of ads, or 10 ad impressions in this case, and 30,000 downloads a month, you can make some decent money at that. And I think that's gonna be their best unless they're really niche and they have to do some direct stuff. But again, that spread out for Daily show, that makes the most sense.
- [53:34]
A
And another question was from Cheryl, Cheryl Robinson. She said, I may be jumping the gun, but do you have tips on how to decide the best placement for mid rolls, which we didn't cover. This was with the Dani conversation. We did cover a little tiny bit, but I think this is more of a content thing. And I thought, you know, you would be best aunt to answer this.
- [53:56]
B
And I kind of answered it with the previous, which is, yeah, an hour. The kind of. The rule of thumb is like a placement for every 15 minutes. And in that placement you could do two ads. So it's like a minute for every 15. So again, if you have an hour long content doing that mid roll spot at 15, another one around 30, another around 45, makes sense for an hour long. And you just keep extending that out. That seems to be the most common, doing two ads at that. Some people I talk with prefer the 20 minute break. They want to go 20 minutes in a break and then another 20 in a break, and then they usually will do three ads. You can do it that way or work out roughly the same number of ads, just less breaks. It really depends on how well you feel. I know people have done 10. The most extreme case I remember was someone that was doing it every three minutes.
- [54:46]
A
Oh, my gosh.
- [54:47]
B
Yeah. I asked the person, why are you doing this? But his answer was, well, I do a podcast about bitcoin, so they deserve it. He knew his audience, so you know your audience. So he's like, well, I'm making the money. His. His thought process was, I'm making them money, they can make me money. That was his thought process and it didn't hurt his. Yeah, that's the extreme. I do not recommend that for anyone. Yes, Rob said that, but Rob did not recommend that. Rob was pointing out in extreme case. Don't clip me out of context, please. I kind of recommend the two. The one break every 15 on the 15s. And it doesn't mean exactly at 15 minutes. You put it in blindly. It means you go back around 13 minutes and you start listening to a natural break that happens before the 17 minute mark and do the same thing you go to 28 and go to 32, somewhere in that range within a couple minutes of those breaks. Find a natural point to break if you're interviewing someone in between questions. Great place to put it in between. You know, if you have multiple guests in between two people talking, a transition between the two, you know, it hangs. If someone asks a question, you put an ad in there, it hangs them for the commercial break and then they come back after the commercial and you hear the answer. So that's kind of how I recommend the placements. I've had people, when I've told them these ad loads go ballistic on me saying, oh my God, no, I'll never do that. That's too many ads. My audience will run away. I mean, I had a conversation with someone recently and I said, look, you're about one of the only top shows in the world that doesn't get have programmatic ads anymore. And the person was like, well, you're not convincing me. That makes me feel better about it. So you have to. Ultimately it has to be what you feel comfortable with for your audience. But note this, programmatic ads are now ubiquitous among podcast listeners. They're hearing it everywhere, which is one of the reasons they don't. By the way, a lot of people don't like listeners don't like those pod roll type spots, the RSS drops that are the second episode in. Because if you listen to a lot of podcasts, the power consumers, they get to hear the same Jay Shetty episode in four different podcasts they're listening to. And then they complain, which is why another reason I love Overcast, because overcast looks for that flags them and blocks them. So yeah, if you're a power listener and you're tired of hearing the same feed drop episodes, go to overcast and you can turn on the feature there and block it across all the feed drops, which is to me, the way to go. So another reason for Overcast. Thank you, Marco.
- [57:27]
A
I love that. And the other thing is I do like it on that end of it. And I also like when they do repeats. They could flag it for you not to say that you don't listen to it because. But it'll just say like there's a little note when it comes up in the feed and like this looks like. I don't even know how it's worded, but it's like this looks like it's a repeat or it looks like it's a from the archive or whatever. When people re release an episode and it's really easy for me to then just go oh, either swipe as in like get it out of my face or oh, I want to listen to that. I haven't. I want to listen to it anyway, so it's really good to be able to do that. Well Cheryl, you got some answers there.
- [58:06]
B
The Flattering RAM so this week's flattering RAM or episode's flattering RAM is Jim Louderback and this is for his open letter to Meta calling them out on their recent questionable choices around creators images. This is from Jim and he was saying this to Meta. Quote Last Tuesday you released a new Muse Image AI feature letting anyone at mention any public Instagram user and get an AI generated image based on their face. Even worse, your users would never know as you automatically opted every single public user into your AI deepfake generator and you hid the opt out inside a byzantine process deep inside the settings menu. It took a user revolt to force you to walk that dangerous and dumb feature back. Your shocking display of hubris was a broadside to every single one of your creators, no matter how small, as they have been struggling to protect their images and likenesses from brazen theft. The feature was available for three days and even though you pulled it back like Pandora's box, you failed to delete any of the images already created. Unquote. Now it's part of the letter. Give the whole letter. I'm going to give the link to Jim's LinkedIn post to read the rest of that. Look for the link in the show notes for episode 36. Thanks Jim for bringing awareness to what Meta tried to roll out and the details therein. And as a content creator, if you care about your image and likeness and you should, what Meta did was, well, I don't want to say beyond words because Jim put it into words and you should read his words. So well done Jim. I'm not going to say what I think because it might be a profanity in there or two that leads to where have we been? Elsie, where have you been?
- [60:00]
A
Oh my gosh, there's so many different things. Rob. I was on Pod News. I was I guess co hosted with James and while Sam was away and yeah, so good times were had. But now listen, this is what I really love though is that James records using Clean Feed so he just sent me a link. I went into cleanfeed. We didn't look at each other, we just talked. It was just. It was like old school audio recording. It was great. I was also on Danny Danny Brown's podcast One Minute Podcast Tips. And I celebrated his episode 1:50 with him. He really had a great episode of both audio and video where he featured a bunch of creator voices in there. His audio version has seven tips and his video version has five tips of one minute tips. Really cool. So all the links are gonna be in the show notes. I was also in another podcast and it's called Too Long, Didn't Listen. And it seems like I'm on that podcast a lot because it was a bunch of one minute clips that I sent in and then they just put those out. So it's five podcasters, one question, 60 seconds each, quick answers, and you can watch or listen. So it was like a series of, I think I answered four questions and then he has other people answering that same question and then he puts them out on all the different places. And plus, the Growth Labs is really doing its thing. We had a live Q and A inside Captivate's monetization suite, which I was behind the scenes for with Mark and Brian, so that you can hear a little bit of the sort of the ethos of, of what this monetization suite is all about. Then we did Are you ready for podcast ads? With Dane Cardio. We'd had a live stream there and it was really, really informative, really great, if you want to check that out. And then we just did how to use Captivate Marketplace with Instagram, Amy campaign management and all of that stuff. And that one is also all live on YouTube, so you can check all of those out. Definitely, definitely, definitely check it out.
- [62:00]
B
And for folks that aren't Captivate users, Amy is Captivate's DAI tool set. Yeah. So Captivate has the ability to do DAI and Programmatic. So the full waterfall, you do the DAI ads and then whatever's not filled, you go into the waterfall and then you've got your Programmatic ads. So yes, full waterfall available from Captivate for any users. If you have questions on that, let me know. And we even support pixel tracking. So yes. And that's for the business users. So where I've been now we're going to go and I'm going to say old school, figuratively and literally. I was in AARP magazine. Yes, it is an article I contributed to in early January that was just published titled so youo Want to Be a Podcaster. It starts with a feature of a podcast from a friend of mine in Kansas City, Dick Grove, who's in his 80s and started a podcast about interesting people in their 80s and what they are doing called Old People Rock Then the rest of the piece is a very, very teched down article on how to podcast. And initially they had me go back, nope, too techy, bring it down. Too techy, bring it down. And I was like, I had to keep redoing it down. So it's focused at those folks that are 60 years and older. It is in the June July issue of AARP. So this article went out to around 40 million people both in print and in their online articles. So yeah, that definitely got a lot of reach. My mom and dad saw it in theirs and they, they went and knocked on the neighbor's door and got a copy of their aarp. So they have a couple of copies of this one because their song was in it. Yes, yes. And then I was also on three different podcasts where the episodes are now live and all of those we had some discussion about AI and podcasting. I was a guest on the new media show with Rob Greenlee episode 669. I'll have a link to that. I was a guest on podcast Morning show episode 541. I'll link to that. And then I was also a guest on We Fixed it. You're welcome. The link in that with we fixed it, you're welcome. They sent one of the best emails I have seen when an episode went live and quickly read through this. It's like hi Rob, thank you so much for joining us on We Fixed It. You're welcome to talk about podcasting and how to evolve as creators while staying true to the intentions of the medium. Exciting news. The episode is now live. It's already getting great feedback and is ready to share out. Please post about it with us. To make it easy, I've included the following A custom thumbnail promoting the episode, attached an episode trailer and clip featuring you. And they gave me a link to the Google Drive so they had two different video clips I could use. And then they go Here are direct links to listen and share out. So they gave a link to their show, the episode in Apple podcast and the link to the episode in Spotify. And then your co promotion helps to showcase your appearance on our show and our current audience and beyond. Recently the podcast reached as high as number two and the top 10 of management shows on Apple podcasts as high as number 38 overall out of 2.5 million podcasts. So every bit of amplification helps. We're trying to catch up and get more active on social channels, but Our profile is FixedITpod across all platforms in case you want to tag us. Thank you again for playing along with us and adding your point of view to the conversation. You're now an official friend of the show. Cheers, Aaron. I mean, they did a really good job on the custom promo clip. I posted it on my LinkedIn. If you want to find my LinkedIn, just go to podcastingjobs.com, it'll take you right there and other social media channels if you want to see it. Kudos to Aaron and the team at we fixed it. You're welcome. They definitely know how to promote and more importantly, help their team guest promote. And you can learn from that and what they did. I mean, including their social media stuff so that you can at them in the different places they went above and beyond with the clips. So again, if you're doing a guest show, learn from them. I think they did a great job there. Just want to call them out and give them kudos.
- [66:17]
A
Yay. Right on. Thank you so much for listening and we will be getting in contact with you in a couple of weeks, folks. Hopefully Rob and I have more time to chat with one another sooner so that we don't run out of time for all the things we have to talk about. All right, well, thanks so much and we'll chat with you soon. Ciao.