Reach, Niches, and Real Numbers: What Advertisers Really Want from Podcasts

Summary

Podcast Summary:

In & Around Podcasting
Episode: Reach, Niches, and Real Numbers: What Advertisers Really Want from Podcasts
Date: June 23, 2026
Host: Elsie Escobar (Captivate)
Guests:

• Dave Hamilton (Backbeat Media)
• Luke Slota (The Outloud Group)
• Marcus Paff (Amplitude Media Partners)

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Episode Overview

This episode delivers an in-depth discussion on what advertisers are genuinely seeking from podcasts today. The conversation, led by industry veterans from the creator, ad sales, and media buying perspectives, demystifies everything from reach thresholds and monetization strategies to the nuances of video, audience data, and the importance of authenticity. Podcasters at every level will find actionable insights about audience building, tech tools, ad models, pitfalls to avoid, and how the definition of podcasting success is evolving.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Minimum Reach for Host-Read Ads

[03:20–08:04]

• Benchmark for Reach:

  • Most ad networks look for a minimum of 5,000 downloads per episode (within 30-45 days) for host-read ads.
  • Some networks may require significantly more (50,000–100,000), while others will consider smaller shows if their workflows and engagement are solid.

• Flexibility & Nuance:

  • “We target a minimum of 5,000 downloads per episode … But if it’s a known quantity and they’ve got 2,500 an episode and we know we can ramp them up, that’s a conversation.” – Dave Hamilton [03:44]

• Variable by Genre and Representation:

  • Niches with passionate audiences (tech, business, true crime) can command interest even with smaller numbers.
  • “Some genres … may have a very niche audience that are desirable by a select group of advertisers.” – Marcus Paff [04:26]

• Persistence for Indies:

  • Indie creators are encouraged not to be discouraged; partners exist for smaller shows willing to hustle and have meaningful conversations with agencies/networks.

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2. Ad Models: CPA, CPM, and Micro-Influencers

[08:04–13:23]

• Affiliate (CPA) Opportunities:

  • Shows with even 500 loyal listeners can participate in affiliate (CPA) models, earning per conversion rather than per thousand downloads.
  • Not always about scale but fit: the action-driven audience can outperform raw numbers.

• Micro-Influencers Outperform Giants:

  • “The micro influencer performs as well as, if not better than just about anyone in the space.” – Marcus Paff [07:24]
  • Targeting a “long tail” of smaller, passionate audiences can yield better ROI than focusing only on the top shows.

• Caveats with CPA:

  • Podcasters should evaluate if CPA offers a fair return (“Are they leaving money on the table by doing CPA potentially, or are they missing a money?” – Dave Hamilton [11:02])
  • Right product-audience fit is essential. Not every CPA offer is worthwhile.
  • “Don’t just take every CPA campaign … pick the right sponsor … don’t say yes to every sponsor. Pick the ones that are going to be right for your audience. And that’s the way to make sure you’re going to have success long term.” – Dave Hamilton [11:51]

Notable Example [11:29]:

• When Netflix launched streaming, a CPA deal ($25 per signup) far outperformed expectations and budgets, showing how a well-matched offer can explode (“podcasters that agreed made a lot more money than they would have as a CPM”).

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3. Is Video Needed to Monetize a Podcast?

[13:23–22:19]

• Short Answer: No, but ...:

  • Video is not required for monetization, but it can be a discovery engine and expand audience reach.
  • Audio-only still has a solid place because of its convenience.

• Discovery and Searchability:

  • Platforms like YouTube and Spotify Video drive discoverability for episodes and creators who have the resources to add video.
  • Example: Dave’s audio-first show saw 3x the engagement on YouTube due to topical search interest [15:17].

• Don’t Chase Virality at the Expense of Core Audience:

  • Focusing too much on viral video leads to loss of show’s essence and alienation of core community.
  • “Some people … get so focused on the YouTube element of going viral that they forget about the core...” – Luke Slota [17:43]
  • Clickbait titles can turn off advertisers due to perceived risk (politics, controversy).

• Audience Location is Key:

  • Know where your true fans live; don't lose sight of them by chasing fleeting YouTube viewers.
  • “Don’t start serving those people differently and ruining what you have with your core audience.” – Dave Hamilton [20:02]

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4. Genre Preferences: What Advertisers Want—and Avoid

[24:51–30:26]

• Appetite:

  • Hot for advertisers: Business, tech, niche B2B, female-centric “reality recap,” loyal listenership genres, and true crime (though true crime is no longer surging like 2019).
  • Politics: Extremely binary—either brands want both ends of the spectrum or none due to the risks.

• Burnout / Avoided Genres:

  • Advertisers are cautious around politics, explicit comedy, and content that’s hard to classify for brand safety.

• Audience Quality over Genre:

  • Weekly subscriber engagement and a clear, brand-safe theme outweighs genre labeling.
  • Many successful podcasts are miscategorized (“society & culture” is a catch-all).

• Categorization Frustration:

  • “You as a podcaster get to choose your own genre … I, in all my planning documents, have a notes section where I rewrite what I think the show's really about.” – Luke Slota [25:07]

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5. Biggest Mistakes Podcasters Make with Advertisers

[30:26–37:02]

• Neglecting Audience:

  • Consistency in release schedule is critical—your show is marketable only because of your audience.
  • “If somebody listens to your show every Tuesday at the gym … and you skip, then they're going to listen to somebody else.” – Dave Hamilton [30:37]

• Ignoring Ad Creative:

  • Failing to properly follow ad instructions and call to action can tank future deals.
  • “When there's a mandatory call to action in there and it says verbatim … it means read it word for word. There are instructions here that teach you how to be successful.” – Dave Hamilton [31:19]

• Taking Misaligned Sponsors:

  • Never take sponsors just for money. Long-term trust with your audience trumps short-term cash.
  • “Don't take sponsors just for the money. Play the long game.” – Dave Hamilton [31:52]
  • Agencies appreciate podcasters who say “no” to ill-fitting sponsors, as it establishes credibility.

• Overvaluing “Premium”:

  • Demanding premium ad rates without proven demand or ROI is a turnoff.
  • “Does the show produce enough ROI to justify the spend at the end of the day?” – Marcus Paff [36:10]

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6. Measurement, Tools, and Tech for Monetization & Media Buying

[37:02–45:14]

• Core Tech Stack:

  • Prioritize tools for:
    • Attribution and measurement (solid data > fancy platforms)
    • Schedules for ad inventory (from spreadsheets to proprietary solutions)
    • Transparent financial tracking for podcasters (payments, performance)

• Simple Start Is Okay:

  • “I'm a big fan of starting everything in a spreadsheet … there will often come a time when you realize, okay, this spreadsheet is now the least efficient thing…” – Dave Hamilton [39:09]

• Demographic Data is Increasingly Vital:

  • Directional (not perfect) data on listeners helps win bigger brand deals; tools that offer audience insights (e.g., through pixel partners/CRMs) now play a larger role.
  • “Anything directional just helps us plan … the Fortune 1000 brands come into the space where that stuff seems really, really important to them.” – Luke Slota [43:57]

• Surveys as Audience Proof/Call-to-Action Test:

  • Old-fashioned audience surveys, though imperfect, verify whether a show’s numbers are real and prove subscriber engagement.
  • “If you as a podcaster could get 250 people to fill out a survey, we knew that show had a good call to action…” – Rob [43:57]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Don’t just take every CPA campaign because it shows up at your door. Pick the right sponsor.” – Dave Hamilton [11:51]
• “Video is not the core audience for any of my shows ... but that's not our core audience. It's really important for creators ... to be honest and aware of where that core audience of yours lives.” – Dave Hamilton [20:02]
• “Genre is not as important as loyal engagement. Weekly subscribers mean more than casual listeners.” – Luke Slota [25:07]
• “The biggest mistake is not serving your audience because without your audience, the advertisers have no interest in you.” – Dave Hamilton [30:37]
• “Demanding premium rates for your show without the numbers to justify it rarely works … it's a math problem. Does it produce enough ROI?” – Marcus Paff [36:10]
• “Anything directional just helps us … there is a larger science to it at this point.” – Luke Slota [43:57]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Minimum Reach for Host-Reads: [03:20–08:04]
• CPA vs CPM, Affiliate Models: [08:04–13:23]
• Is Video Needed?: [13:23–22:19]
• Genres & Brand Safety: [24:51–30:26]
• Podcaster Mistakes: [30:26–37:02]
• Tech & Tools for Ad Sales: [37:02–45:14]

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Actionable Advice for Podcasters

• Strive for 5,000+ downloads per episode—but don’t wait to build relationships and explore affiliate models earlier if you have loyal, niche listeners.
• Serve your audience first; your trustworthiness as an ad partner depends entirely on your authenticity and reliability.
• Don’t undervalue or overvalue your content: let performance and demand set your ad rates, not ego.
• Respect ad creative instructions and strive for seamless, genuine integrations.
• Video is a plus, not a must. Only invest if it fits your workflow and business model.
• Use whatever tools you need for attribution, scheduling, and payment transparency. Start simple—efficiency wins.
• Gathering and leveraging even directional demographic data can give you an edge in attracting advertisers.
• Don’t be afraid to say no to brands or agencies that are not an authentic fit for you or your community.

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Final Notes

The episode is a must-listen for podcasters who want a candid, inside-the-industry look at what makes podcasts attractive to advertisers, distilled directly from the people on the front lines. The core message: Authentic engagement with your audience and an honest, data-driven approach to sponsorships will always win in the long run.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, Christabel, from your podcast pipeline for episode 35 of in and Around Podcasting, let's tackle the fear that dynamic ad insertion is just about running ads. Listen, you know how obsessed I am with authenticity when it comes to helping leaders and brands own their message and their voice. So when you talk to me about how dynamic ad insertion can truly be used as an editorial tool, I said, wait a minute. Are you telling me that I could share a live update or a correction on a previous show? I could use it to share breaking news on the topic that I'm an expert in? Is this what you're telling me? Yes, it's an editorial tool as well as a sales tool. We're going to break down a few little strategies, but we need your help, too. And when I say your help, I mean those of you who are listening. Tell us, how are you creatively using DAI Tech to share your message? I am so excited about this. You have a tool. How do you use it best for the thing that you're building? So please, everybody out there email us your questions, your hesitations, or even the tests and success stories. Send us a quick audio note to CommunityAptivate FM and catch episode 35 of in and Around Podcasting. Wherever you get your podcast, your voice might just be on it. It's not just all the peaks and og. Hey, welcome to in and Around Podcasting, the podcast industry show that brings you a range of powerful podcasting perspectives. I'm Elsie Escobar from Captivate. And today Rob Walch is joined by Dave Hamilton, Luke Slota, and Marcus Pfaff for a candid conversation about podcast advertising, monetization and what they're seeing in the market right now. From the creator, buyer and sales sides of the business, let's get into it.

[B]

In and Around Podcasting.

[C]

Gentlemen, welcome to the show for the listeners. Can you please introduce yourself?

[B]

Yeah, I'm Dave Hamilton. I currently run a company called Backbeat Media that we've been running for about 30 years that manages the sponsorships for a bunch of podcasts, including three of my own, Matt Geek, Business Brain, and Gig Gab. I like to say that we represent a group of fiercely independent podcasters, of which I am one, and I'm happy to be here.

[D]

I'm Luke Slota. I work at the Outloud Group. I run the podcast buying team here. The Outloud Group is a full marketing agency, influencer, marketing, platform, agnostic. My specialty is the podcast side of

[E]

the business and my name is Marcus Paff. I am one of the Managing partners at Amplitude Media Partners, a company we founded back in February of 2024, officially representing podcasters, YouTubers, and to some extent social media folks as well in the ad sales space. But of course, our primary day to day focus is podcasters. Great to be here.

[C]

All right, well, between the four of us, we all have. I figured out over 60 years experience in the podcast space, so I'm going to get right into questions here. And first one up is. And I get this one from a lot of podcasters, so that's why I'm starting with this one. What is the level of reach per episode that is needed for host red ads today? Go ahead, Dave, go ahead, start us.

[B]

When we're talking with a show, we target a minimum of 5,000 downloads per episode, and that's in the first, you know, 30 to 45 days, whatever that is. For host red, midroll, baked in or faked in, that's where we go. Will we take a show that's less than that? Yes. Because part of the reason for that 5,000 is I don't want someone who's gonna like, we're gonna put a lot of effort into marketing them and then they stop podcasting. So most people who have gotten to that 5,000 level are serious. They've got a workflow, they've got a business that that's running, but if it's a known quantity and they've got, you know, 2, 500 an episode and we know that we can like ramp them up, then that's a conversation we'll have.

[E]

Yeah. By and large, I agree with what Dave said. I think as a podcaster, there are a few variables that play into it. And number one, who's representing you on the ad sales side? Because you're going to get different answers from different networks, different sales entities out there. 5,000. I agree with what Dave said. There tends to be a pretty good universal number to think about for shows, but it depends on the genre that you're in. There are certainly some genres that are more sought after than others and may have a very niche audience that are desirable by a select group of advertisers. And there are some genres, just to be totally transparent, that 5,000 may not really move the needle. So there are things, there are other variables that play into this. But as you go out there as a creator, as a podcaster, and you're searching for someone to represent you in the market, odds are you're going to speak to some folks that tell you the number is significantly higher than 5,000. If I'm being honest. Some networks will tell you it's 50,000, some networks will tell you it's a hundred thousand.

[B]

Why?

[E]

Well, it has to fit into their money making business plan at the end of the day too. And do they feel that they can go out there and do the job for you in conjunction with the other shows that are on board and is there money to be made on their end from it? So all of these things factor in. If you are a show in that 5,000 to 10,000 range, though, I would encourage you to not be discouraged. Depending upon who you're talking to, keep looking. There is a partner out there for you and if you're under that threshold, it's still worth it, I think, to if you ultimately have aspirations of monetizing your show through host reads, to have those conversations early in the process. Go out, speak with networks, see what they're looking for so that you know what you need to strive for as a podcaster to reach that point and ultimately become monetizable.

[C]

Luke, I'll let you take a shot at this one as well.

[D]

Yeah, I mean, from the agency perspective, like we have a affiliate program, so candidly, like you can have 500 listeners and if those 500 are loyal, fantastic. You can be paid on a bounty system for whatever it may be. But I agree that 5 to 10,000 range is probably the sweet spot. The big thing I have to say is representing a bunch of different types of brands over the last however many years. Just be really realistic about where you're at. So if you have 5,000 listeners, it's probably not safe for an agency to send you a mattress day one to talk about wherever. But if it's a service or an audiobook or something like that, we may be plug and play and get you on a campaign right away. That is because most of what I've done is doctor focused. So like there's some sort of action, some sort of URL or promo code involved and at the end of the day, like we don't discriminate. We've had five or six hundred unique shows drop in the course of a month for some of these brands and some of them have 5,000 listeners and some of them have 500,000. But I've kind of seen them all work. So I'm on board for talking to everyone.

[E]

Well, and to piggyback off that study after study that comes out seems to indicate that the quote unquote micro influencer performs as well as, if not better than just about anyone in the space so if you think about it in those terms, and Luca would be curious to know, being on the buy side, what you've seen. But anecdotally, it certainly sounds like, if you're willing to put in the time and the energy to go out there and curate that list of smaller. And it's all relative, what constitutes small in this case. But smaller shows, odds are you are probably going to see better return than if you just funnel all of your budget into these two behemoth shows and hope for the best.

[D]

I would be.

[B]

And I agree with all of that, by the way. But Luke, you mentioned affiliate marketing for smaller shows. In a general sense, when you've got a show with a loyal audience, what kind of effective CPM are you seeing on those shows where you're doing it on a CPA basis? A cost per action, a cost per sale.

[D]

Well, to be honest with you, we're not looking at the CPM like, no, I know doesn't report back to me saying, Hey, 382 people listened. All I care about is that you sold three particular items and we paid you out 75 bucks a piece. So we don't even see that reporting.

[B]

But I'm just thinking from the podcasters standpoint of the person who is selling being the podcaster or the agency there. CPA is something I've done a lot with CPA before we got into podcasting. And in parallel with it, we ran a website called Mac observer for a really long time. And CPA on that site didn't do it did okay, but, you know, we had 2 million people a month. And so it was. But it was residual income. We started in parallel to that. At some point, we started a website called Deals on the Web. That site had a fraction of the audience of Mac observer, but it was right at the bottom of the funnel, right where it was. People would come to our website to find deals and then they would buy. And 80% of our revenue was affiliate revenue. And our affiliate revenue at deals on the web. At 10%, the size audience as Mac observer was quadruple what Mac Observers affiliate revenue was. So it depends on where you are in the funnel. Our experience, and candidly, we haven't re. Experimented with this in a long time because our initial experience on podcasts was that CPA was not financially reflective of the audience that was there. Not fairly. If you looked at, okay, we did this campaign as a CPM. Even a, you know, $25 CPM versus the CPA was like you. We were getting like, you know, $4, CPM or something. So that's the context under which I ask that question. I realized you wouldn't be the one with that answer. It would be the people on the other end of it.

[D]

Yeah, no, we don't even look at that. Reporting it is through, you know, there's a lot of these third parties now that allow you to create URLs very, very easily. It's a, you know, CRM tool to store all this information. And ultimately that's something that's not reported. So I can't even begin to answer you that. I can tell you that I've worked with teams that have managed large affiliate networks where, like, we've written people monthly checks for 25 or $30,000 because they drove and pushed and pushed. And those to your point, that are really, really strong at this, they might have a podcast as their base, but do they also post on Facebook? Are they also posting in a newsletter? Are they also making bumpers? I don't know what they're doing, but to your point. Yeah, so that's a great question. I do not know the answer to that, but it's the nuts and bolts of this are, I don't care how big your podcast is. When I.

[B]

But the podcaster might. And I get that, but it's like, is there a more. Are they leaving money on the table by doing CPA potentially, or are they missing a money?

[C]

Right. I mean.

[D]

I mean, yeah.

[C]

One of the things that I remember. Remember when Netflix went originally. Came out with streaming.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Netflix ran campaigns. We wanted Netflix to sell it as a cpm because we were podcasters, didn't want a CPA deal.

[E]

Sure.

[C]

But Netflix said, no, we're gonna do it. It was like a $25 payment for everybody that signs, each person that signs up, and we're like, okay, we'll see if we can get some shows to agree. And some shows agreed. And we were. It was supposed to run for like two months, two weeks in, they were like, stop it. Shut it down. You've gone through our budget.

[B]

Interesting.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

So the people, the podcasters that agreed made a lot of money, a lot more than they would have as a

[B]

cpm, probably because they, the ones that agreed, knew that they had the right audience for that product. And maybe that's the meta lesson here, is don't just take every CPA campaign because it shows up at your door. Pick the right sponsor. And candidly, for CPM campaigns and any other type of campaign, don't say yes to every sponsor. Pick the ones that are going to be right for your audience. And that's the way to make sure you're going to have success long term.

[C]

Worst CPA deal I ever heard. It was for indoor swimming pools, those little pools that you. They wanted to run this on podcasts, and they were going to pay $200 per acquisition.

[B]

For a pool.

[C]

Yeah, for those indoor pools. And that was all they were going to pay. And we're like, how many people are going to actually buy this? And then they. They didn't want to do cpm. We're like, no, you got to do cpm. Like, no, this is it. And we're like, this isn't going to work. We don't have anybody for you later.

[E]

Well, and Dave raised a good point. I think it does come down to what's the product. How desirable is it for your audience to know what that success is going to look like? From my perspective, just working with shows, I probably wouldn't advise anyone to go the CPA route unless they were still striving to hit that 5,000 download number to where they could secure a more traditional deal. There's always going to be anomalies where it does make sense, but that, I guess, just as a general rule, is how we would probably approach it. Same.

[C]

All right, let me reel us in off the CPAs, and sorry, go to the next item. And this is another one that's the big one out there for the world. And it's. Is video needed to monetize your podcast, or will it be needed to monetize your podcast in the future or going forward? And. And I'll start with you, Marcus, on this one.

[E]

Well, I know we'd all like a definitive yes or no when it comes to this question, and believe me, I want one as well. But like so many things, I just think it's more nuanced than that. If you're able to produce video, I certainly think it gives you a better opportunity to maximize your prospective audience. Meet them where they are. We hear that, see that every day, it seems like now. So I think if you can do it, you have the means to do it, you have the setup to do it, and financially it makes sense. Absolutely. It can help in that respect. But I want to stress, I still think there is a place and there will always be a place for audio only podcast. And there are a few reasons podcasts rose to prominence in the first place, but a big reason was because audio is easy to consume while you're doing other things. That's why 2018, 2019, 2020. I mean, people were taking advantage of that. So in my mind, with video right now, the biggest benefit that it has going forward is the discoverability metric. I mean, you could take advantage of Google if you're on YouTube. You could take advantage of what Spotify is offering and Spotify video right now if you're part of that program. But I guess if I'm trying to condense that into a short answer, no, I don't think, think it's absolutely necessary in order to make money going forward. I would still consider it a nice to have if it fits your business model and it won't for everyone and you shouldn't feel like you're left behind as a result.

[C]

Dave, you want to add in anything here?

[B]

Yeah, I agree with all of that. I mean, the short answer is no, you don't need it. But don't count it out just because you don't have the team staff technology budget to produce high quality multicam. Don't look at the shows that have millions of downloads or views per month as the bar, right? Like they, they do a great job. Like they. I don't want to take anything away from them, but there are a lot of listeners and I am not one of them. But it doesn't matter. There are a lot of listeners to my podcast that like what I call the voyeuristic experience of watching two people record an audio podcast. Right? Like there's nothing special happening in the video, there's just two people talking and there's no production except there's cameras and maybe some lighting that somebody thought about for 10 seconds. And we just put out an episode of Gig Gab recently that Rush just started touring. I went to their opening shows. We had one of Rush's, this is a last minute episode. Had my son on who went with me to the shows and then I had a friend of mine who used to mix sound for Rush years ago and we pulled this together last minute, put it up. And that is an audio primarily show, right. The YouTube version of that currently is doing three times the plays of the audio download. And it's literally what I describe, voyeuristic experience. Watch people. But to Marcus's point, that's where those people were. They were on YouTube looking for things. YouTube's a fantastic search engine and that's where they found it.

[E]

Well, and think about what Dave's saying here too. In my own life as a sports radio consumer, I think about go back 10, 15 years. Dan Patrick, if you're in the, in that industry or you consume that industry. Colin Cowherd. They took a radio show like Dave's saying, they made it voyeuristic. There's a couple of cameras in the studio and you are watching them record their radio show. And I know people that consume those shows to this day in that manner. I don't. I am a terrestrial radio listener. But to the point of meet your audience where they are, if they were only on one or the other, what might they be missing out on in that scenario?

[C]

Yeah, Dan Patrick, his studio is so spartan, he really needs to add a few things around his.

[D]

Can I piggyback that real quick though? From the advertiser's perspective, what's super interesting about this is, and I've done like psychoanalysis on this in my own little home office here, what ends up happening is the minute somebody makes video. This is my point of view and I'm not a podcaster. So, Dave, Rob, please tell me I'm wrong here. I think what ends up happening is some people, not all, get so focused on the YouTube element of going viral that they forget about the core of what brought people into podcasting in the first place. First off, Dave, spot on. It's a great search engine. I mean, like, I consume podcasts from time to time because I want to see so and so on an interview and I type their name in YouTube and then it brings it up. But the second phase to this is what's happening now is I see folks chasing the viral ality, if you will, and then all of a sudden they start messing with the name of the show. So I'm in a perspective right now. I'm in a position with multiple clients where they don't want to run anything political. And the show might be about business or the economy, but someone decides to write the word war, write the word Trump, write the word Biden, like you name it left and right. I'm not discriminating. They throw that in the title thinking YouTube's going to pick it up, when in reality they might not even mention the president's name in the podcast, but it's in the title. And now I can't put an advertiser in it because they deem it's political. So my job with YouTube as a search engine, as a podcast hosting platform, whatever we're calling it, yes, we've had great benefits. But I've also seen the downside of it as people play into that as opposed to the core of quality content fans that are die hard listeners that tune in every week to like, I'M gonna follow whatever you say. I'm your subscriber and I have my debit card out pre transactional doing what you recommend. But now there's this other thing and that subscriber base, well, they're not even subscribers. The algorithm's pushing them there. Those aren't the ones that are going to buy a mattress. So there is a downside to this. Yes, I think. I didn't even say I wanted to answer this question. There is a downside to this, but at the end of the day, I agree with both of you. Throw it up there if you have it. And I agree, Dave. Like, it's just kind of strange to watch two guys sitting at a card table talking on microphone.

[B]

To you and me, it is. It's not what we want. But that, but we're not everyone. And, and I think that's kind of the point here is to, especially to what you were saying. YouTube is not the core audience for any of my shows, right? For that particular episode, at this particular moment, it's got more downloads. But are those people, or more views, whatever that actually means. But are those people ever going to watch another Gig Gab episode? I don't expect them to. Like some small percentage we might like, rope in and they'll see that they like the vibe of this and that's great. But otherwise they're watching it because they're Rush fans and they just can't get enough right now. And everybody's going crazy over this. And that's. I love that for them and it's fine for us too. But that's not our core audience. I think it's really important for creators of any kind, especially when you're putting things out on multiple platforms, to just be honest and aware of where that core audience of yours lives. Because you might start a podcast and then you start doing clips on YouTube, let's say, right, to get some promotion, like maybe pull in some listeners or promote the podcast. And you might find after six months, like, wait, wait a minute, my audience is actually on YouTube now or on Instagram or whatever. And that's okay, but if that's not where your audience is, then don't start serving those people differently and ruining what you have with your core audience.

[E]

Luke, I'm curious, as a buyer on that side, how cognizant of that question are you when you're considering shows, the whole, does this show have a video element? And does that influence you one way or another when you're thinking about a title?

[D]

So that's A loaded question. I have a lot of brands that come from YouTube. First, if they're running YouTube and they haven't run a podcast, traditional podcast, or an RSS feed, that helps me, that allows me to walk them right into the wild world of podcasting. If it's the reverse of it, Wait a second. We can't pixel those impressions. Wait a second. We can't track those. Wait a second. YouTube's a walled garden. All these questions start coming in that I call them hurdles. They're not problems, they're hurdles. I have to walk a client through the why and the how behind it. But it comes up all day, every day. From one side of the street or the other is the short answer.

[C]

I've seen that we're offering a show up that was simulcast when it was heavily video and the buyer was so used to audio, they're like, they didn't get that. You can't do any tracking. Pixel tracking, just YouTube is a walled garden.

[E]

Yeah, well, and historically, video meant YouTube. It was synonymous with Spotify. Video entering the equation. Does that change anything for you, Luke, in considering the breakout? If it's a large portion of the

[D]

audience on Spotify, no, we ask for those numbers. I mean, like, those are all the things we have to add in on the back end. But, like, I can take everyone back to, you know, 2014, where like, YouTube wasn't a thing yet, per se. I mean, YouTube didn't have pre rolls and we were asking people, do you, do you want to run a video podcast? When in reality it was, it was a YouTube program. It wasn't a traditional podcast. Two guys sitting there looking at something. They were influencers. They tended to be around science or tech or tech reviews. But like, that was the early days of YouTube. But we couldn't track podcasting with a pixel either. So it wasn't. One's better than the other. It was both a vanity URL. One was verbal, one was clickable. Fast forward to today. There's a Berlin Wall between these two, and they're just so different, yet so the same. And to Dave's original point here, like, as people are consuming through this search engine, it's a wild world. But to answer your question, mark, I'm asking for all those stats. Send me your Spotify, send me your rumble, send me this. I mean, a lot of these are public, so I can go see them. I am dropping a pixel whenever possible on the RSS feed so that I can get in real time those numbers and then I have to add them all. Together and say this percentage because of the pixel. I can show you this, this percentage. I believe this is probably the response rate. It's clickable. There's a lot more people clicking the link just to check it out. So some of these are junk views, junk sessions to your website. But at the end of the day, I'm going to model this out and give you a strong conservative prediction based on how this works. And then at that point there's a lot of trust involved. Like do you trust your agency partner that is reporting these modeled analytics, who's aggressive, who's not, who's really, really conservative? I tend to be really conservative because then I can say I think it's higher than this. But let's use these numbers for now. So your CFO is happy and kids,

[B]

you can ask your parents what the Berlin Wall was.

[D]

So

[C]

you mentioned politics and advertisers not wanting to touch that. So what are some genres advertisers are asking about the most? And then conversely, which ones are they? Well, not just toxic on, but which ones are they burned out on?

[D]

Yeah, first things first, politics. There is no in between either. You are embracing it. And you want both left and right wing. You want the extremes because you know that audience is so devout, if you will, or you are not touching it with a 10 foot pole. I think right now, and I remind people this, and everyone on this call knows this, you as a podcaster get to choose your own genre. So like I tell clients, sometimes when something's labeled as society and culture, it might not really mean that. So I, in all my planning documents have a notes section where I rewrite what I think the show's really about. In layman's terms, I tell them I think I'm funny. So my podcast would be comedy. I mean, my favorite murder. When that was first launched, however many years ago, they literally had it as the comedy genre. And then shortly thereafter, it was switched to true crime because they realized that would help them sell episodes. You know, I think right now we have a good mix of clients where there isn't one genre over the other. I think comedy and society and culture on itunes tend to over index. I mean, at the end of the day, the developed listeners still live in Dave's world. In tech. Tech is one of my favorite genres. True crime, if I'm targeting moms and women, seems to be really, really strong, but it's kind of the gamut. I can't answer this question well, Rob, because across the board I've seen a little bit of Everything work. It comes down to finding a way to see how loyal is your base and how many subscribers tune in weekly. Like those are the people I really, really care about. How many subscribers are tuning in weekly as opposed to the folks that just come in and out from listening. Because it's subscribers that are going to go and purchase a product or go check out the website.

[B]

Yeah, they're the ones that they listen because they want to hear what that host or those hosts have to say. That's your core. Serve them. Don't worry about the rest.

[C]

Marcus, any genres that you're hearing from advertisers that you wish there were more shows in?

[E]

Yeah, on the sell side, business and tech. I mean, I think those are very hot. I think they tend to perform. I think we talked earlier about what kind of reach do you need to sell your show. Those are two genres that I feel like even if you haven't hit that 5,000 download threshold, there's an advertiser out there that's eager to work with you if you're putting out quality content. So we're constantly on the hunt for more shows beneath those two genres just because we know they're sought after. Luke mentioned True Crime. It continues to perform, I would say. I'm not saying it's down the list, but I am saying it's not what it was in 2019 in my experience. Then again, I don't know what is. It's, you know, it's a different landscape. We've evolved quite a bit in the last six, seven years. So that, and one thing that I will say that we've seen a lot of success with is female centric, call them reality recap type content that has a very devout female audience base. Very similar to True Crime in that respect. In terms of who's listening, those shows tend to do really, really well. They seem to perform. At least that's the feedback we regularly get when selling into that type of content.

[D]

And those are some of the shows. Marcus, I could not agree with you more. But those are the shows that are labeled differently. Is it TV and film? Is it society and culture? Like what do they name those shows? So it's not like you can go into like there's a lot of these. More and more I see these like platforms popping up where you can go in and like self serve buy. And it's not as simple as just buying a bunch of something in a vertical or a genre category, whatever itunes is calling it now, because it's not exactly accurate. That's the Whole point of going, here's my shameless plug. That's the whole point of going to an agency. We're subject matter experts because we consume a ton of this. Like, I've listened to more podcasts than I ever wish to admit that I really, really didn't enjoy. Like, yes, I have my podcast, I enjoy, but there's a lot of these that I'm like, who is listening to this? But I still listen to huge chunks of these episodes to see, do they get into politics? Do they use a lot of profanity? Are they talking about sex all the time? Like, what makes this brand safe or not? Yes, I know there's a lot of tools out there, but, like, you talk to someone that's been in this space for 10 plus years, they've listened to

[E]

a ton of this content, defying society and culture. For me, because I'm still trying to determine exactly what that means. It's a catch all in a lot of ways.

[C]

Talking about reality tv.

[D]

Yeah, it's a huge bucket on itunes, though.

[E]

Yes, it is. And I know as someone who's helped podcasters try to categorize their show, oftentimes it's a fallback because you go, it doesn't really fit into any of these other categories. Society and culture is sort of, like I said, that catch all term that you can lump in there. So I think just agreeing with what you're saying, Luke, ultimately it's going to encompass a lot of different types of content just because there may not necessarily always be a better fit. In some cases there will be, but I think a lot of times, too, it's just sort of the easy one to go. You know what, it fits beneath this, or we can find a way to make it seem like it fits beneath society, society and culture heading. So that's what we're going to do.

[C]

So, Dave, I'm going to stick with good things for podcasters. And I want to go to this question for you, and you've been around the longest year. What are some of the biggest mistakes you've seen podcasters doing that hurt them?

[B]

With advertisers, well, the big mistakes are not serving your audience because without your audience, the advertisers have no interest in you because they don't have an interest in you. They have an interest in you marketing them to your audience. Right. So consistency with release schedule is always the thing that I start with. Like, that is the way to keep your audience. If somebody listens to your show every Tuesday at the gym and you don't you decide. I'm not feeling it this week, man. Like, I'm just gonna skip. Then they're gonna listen to somebody else on Tuesday at the gym. Right. And now you've just given up that listener, so. But consistency also helps on the sponsorship side. Right? Because when somebody buys into your show, they're usually buying into an episode in a given week. Right. You know, it's. I mean, it's targeted to a day, but we can fudge a little bit to a broadcast week. You start moving around weeks, it doesn't work. So that's one thing. And then the other that we see a lot is pay attention to the creative that you get for your ads. When there's a mandatory call to action in there and it says verbatim, I really don't want to be insulting here, but if you don't know what the word verbatim means, don't assume. Look it up and I'll save you the time. It means read it word for word. There are instructions here that teach you how to be successful. And it's been a long time since I've seen a set of talking points that is objectively bad or misleading. There have been some, but by and large, the talking points that you're getting from these sponsors are very well crafted and easy to follow. So follow them and do it and like, just follow the instructions and don't take sponsors to kind of circle back. Don't take sponsors that you are not interested in or you don't think that your audience is going to like, don't take sponsors just for the money. Play the long game. It will help you in the long run.

[C]

Wait, are you trying to say there's some people that only are taking advertisers for the money and that's it?

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah. And it's not the Han Solo kind of thing. Like, I'm only in it for the money. You know, it. Like, they're actually only in it for the money, but they won't last. Right. Your audience is there because you're passionate about the thing you're talking about. So think about that and think about how can I make this sponsorship part of my show. I mean, I've had some sponsors show up. Like, we have a vetting system here at Backbeat where we. We won't pitch a sponsor before. Until a show answers the vetting and puts like a one sentence host feedback in about why this works for them. And I have to fill it out too. Right. I'm on this podcaster side and when I fill These things. I see something come in, and it's like, oh, I don't know. And then I'll start thinking about it. It's like, actually, wait, I have an angle for how this would fit with my audience. Advertisers like to see that when they're like, Luke can, like, can probably speak to this. Right? Like, that's valuable.

[C]

And the other thing is, don't transition when you're going to do the ad read from Robin Williams into the guy from Ferris Bueller's Day Off, Ben Stein. I mean, I've heard people that all enthusiastic, and then they get to the ad read, and you literally hear this in the background as they're reading it in a monotone voice.

[B]

Yeah, that only works for Bill Burr, folks. That only works for Bill Burr. You are not Bill Burr. Unless you're Bill Burr, in which case, nice job on the. The very verbatim ad reads, but, you know, overly verbatim.

[D]

It's not hurting us. If I have a client come to me and say, I want Dave Hamilton show, and then Dave says no to it. Heck, yeah. It's deflating. But it also gives the podcast space a heck of a lot of credibility. Hey, Dave said no because it doesn't fit his life. And the client all of a sudden is like, oh, my God, Luke, you're doing your job. There are good things here when people are honest about products. Like, there are folks that will hawk anything, and pretty quickly we find out who they are, and pretty quickly the performance reflects that they'll hawk anything. So this is credibility for all of us, having folks be really, really deliberate about what they're going to promote.

[B]

Yeah. Most agency buyers are like you, Luke. We've, you know, but there's all kinds. And we've run into some where we've said, you know, they've said, we really want Dave Hamilton show.

[E]

Right.

[B]

And Dave says, yeah, no. And then they come back and they're like, yeah, but the sponsor really wants to be on your show. It's like, but we kind of know our audience is better than you. And I don't know how to say this to you. Like, I would assume that anytime we share that kind of honest feedback, that it, like you just said, Luke, it makes your job easier.

[C]

Marcus, you. You had some thoughts?

[E]

Yeah, well, I'll. I'll go back to something, and I. Because I agree with both Dave and Luke said here, you asked about the biggest mistakes that we see podcasters make from time to time, and I want to be careful with how I'm articulating this, but there are shows that come to us and they want to demand that advertisers pay a quote unquote premium for their show. And their rationale is always that, hey, my show is premium content and therefore they should pay a premium to speak to my audience. And from their perspective, I guess I can understand why they might think that way. And I also understand you don't want to undersell yourself or your show. And maybe sometimes they're very overly cognizant of that. But the thing is, there are a lot of podcasts out there to choose from and ultimately the math has to make sense for the advertiser too. And that's what I think gets lost on on some folks at times in the performance space. That's really what this is. If you break it down, it's a math problem. Does the show produce enough ROI to justify the spend at the end of the day? And when you get into the branded advertising, of course, sure, that's a little bit different. Now we're talking about just getting the name out there and at that point it's more about brand alignment between brand and creator. But for the vast majority of shows, especially if you're just getting into the space, you're going to be dealing with performance brands. And it's important that you recognize, okay, we start at a rate that's palatable for everyone. And look, if you start selling out your show and the demand is there, the CPMs will increase. The success will follow from that point.

[C]

Well, this is a tech show and ironically, podcasting tech shows are the worst when it comes to advertising. But I'm going to go into tech and tools. What tech and tools are needed by networks to support the podcasters for ads? And I'll start with you, Marcus.

[E]

Tools and tech. Well, I mean, I think a lot of it probably goes hand in hand with what advertisers are looking for first and foremost. Measurement is a big piece of that and making sure that you're working with the appropriate attribution partners and you feel comfortable there. Having worked with a variety of different hosting platforms, there's a lot of supplemental opportunity out there too, particularly for networks to take advantage of. I mean, I guess I'll just mention it. Flight path is obviously something that's very top of mind for a lot of networks these days and being able to assess what their avails look like across shows, across run of network or run of show, so to speak. So that's something that you can account for or think about in your Tech stack. I mean, ultimately though, it just comes down to having a system, I think, and having worked in this and working with a number of creators day to day, having something that makes the process as efficient and as clear as possible for those folks to go and do their job. So whatever it is you're using, whether it's a built out proprietary platform, or whether you're taking advantage of some sort of web platform that allows you to distribute ad copy and pixels, it's ultimately just about making sure those folks get things in a timely manner. You're communicative about what the expectations are and you're not leaving that. Hopefully some instances it's not always possible, but ultimately, until the last minute, maybe I'm kind of a dinosaur from this perspective. I don't think you need some great build out some great tech stack to be a successful podcaster. It's really ultimately just about getting the tools that you do need, which tends to be ad copy, which tends to be attribution requirements, and then it's ultimately up to you to cut a spot that's going to perform for that advertiser.

[B]

Yeah, I agree. I'm a big fan of starting everything in a spreadsheet, like a shared spreadsheet, especially where you can easily manipulate and change what you're tracking. There will often come a time when you realize, okay, this spreadsheet is now the least inefficient thing in our workflow as opposed to the most efficient thing. But that's great because when you notice that, then you can either go and find one of these canned systems like Marcus is describing, or build out your own. And with like vibe coding these days, the SaaS, I mean the whole SaaS apocalypse thing is happening for this reason, right? Because you can easily go build something that works exactly like your business does work, but identify those inefficiencies and you hit them. Marcus. Right. Like you need a place where you can manage the schedule of shows, whatever that is, for all of the shows that you have. And it can start in a shared spreadsheet. It probably won't last there, but it can start there. A place where you can manage how many slots are available on each of those dates and how many spot which sponsors are in those slots, and then managing the creative and making sure that the time between when you get the data and when it is passed to the party who needs it, that's the place where you want to focus your efficiency. So you know, you get the campaign is booked, the order comes in for the campaign from the Sponsor, as a network, you want to put that on your podcaster schedule immediately. And the same thing's true when the creative comes in, you want that immediately to the podcaster. You don't want to hold up there. And similarly, when the show drops, and this is where things can get actually fun with podcasters, but when the show drops, you want to get that drop back upstream to the advertiser as quickly as possible. And if you can do that, then you're running a business and you're being efficient. But just identify where, where, when something getting held up somewhere.

[E]

Yeah, and the one other thing that I think podcasters very much want to see is their financials. You want to find an effective way to put that in front of them. I think our company has successfully done that, but that's one of the questions before we reach that point that was brought up most often. Hey, where do I see when I'm getting paid, how I'm getting paid, what I've been paid for? And I learned a long time ago you don't mess with people's money. So you, you know, and understandably, so. So make sure you're communicating that. And then. I know this is sort of tangential to the question, Rob, but one thing that, that comes up, particularly with shows that run a lot of catalog campaigns. Okay, to, to Dave's point, it used to be very simple if you were strictly producing episodic reads, hey, we've got four available ad slots. We can sell four advertisers into this episode. If you're running catalog, things may get a little bit more complex. I'll just say this again, I realize off topic, downloads do not equal impressions. Okay, there is a ratio there. We typically think it's somewhere between 70 to 80% of the download total. Can be a little bit higher for some shows depending upon the nature of the audience and the content. But just if you're doing 100,000 downloads and you're running everything catalog, 80,000 Impressions is probably a pretty good number to think that you're going to ultimately be able to achieve. So sorry for taking a left turn there, but important public service announcement.

[C]

Luke, any thoughts on tech and tools

[D]

that you see needed on my back end, it's a CRM that puts all of the shows in one place and I'm able to filter to them super, super quickly, so I'm not wasting networks time. It's nice to have a list of every podcaster that has a dog or wears glasses or sleeps at night and might need a mattress. But the thing that helps me the most from the buy side is having some sort of accurate demographic data. Going back years and years ago, it was those self reported, you know, POD surveys where Dave would not have advertisers in one of his episodes and say, go to this URL and fill out this survey. I don't know how accurate it was, but at least it was directional. I used to joke with people, I lie about my household income every chance I get, but ultimately it was something that helped us on the buy side. So now with some of these third party pixel providers that are getting Experian or TransUnion data, they're able to pull some sort of data for us. Is it household, is it individual? Like it gets kind of messy. But at the same time anything directionally helps us plan because now we're seeing larger and larger. You know, the Fortune 500, Fortune 1000 brands come into the space where like that stuff seems really, really important to them. They're not going after just oh, Luke slow to said so, so we'll go and do it. There is a larger science to it at this point. So any tools that help us provide that directional data helps us on the buy side big time.

[C]

One of the things you mentioned, you know, transunion and figuring out what the demos are, one of the downsides of this is in the old days we'd ask the podcasters to ask their audience to fill out the survey. If you as a podcaster could get 250 people to fill out a survey, we knew that show had a good call to action and that was a vetting process. When someone come in with there's a few podcasts we all know about that don't have real numbers and they would you come and say, okay, get the survey filled out. And they couldn't get anybody to fill the survey out.

[D]

No, I couldn't agree with you more. I mean like that was, you know, I remember going to POD survey backslash and whatever the show name was and you could pull all sorts of data and, and that was very, very solid data. I agree with that. I mean like I tell people right now, like there's a nine year old in the other room on an iPad logged in as a 42 year old man that's married with a household income of X amount of dollars. She's on my iPad right now watching God knows what. So I understand how inaccurate some of this data can get, but anything directional just helps us. Do people still do POD surveys? I don't want to take us on that tangent, but I Haven't heard that in a call to action in a long time.

[B]

No, it's probably a good idea. Again, it's not going to get you everything. It's going to get you something.

[D]

Yeah, we should make bumper stickers and distribute them at the next podcast event.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

All right. Well, gentlemen, I want to thank you for coming on and please each one again. Start. Dave, say again who you are and how people get a hold of you.

[B]

Yeah, I'm Dave Hamilton. I do the three podcasts that I do, Macgeekab, Gigab and Business Brain. And we run BackbeatMedia. BackbeatMedia.com we'd love to hear from you, but whatever you're doing, we're always happy to help, even if there's not business to be done together. I love helping podcasters and anybody in the industry.

[D]

Yeah, I like helping podcasters too. Luke. Slow to the outloudgroup.com you can come through the contact page and find me there. Even on LinkedIn, you know, just like Dave, I'm always open to have a conversation and help anyone I can.

[E]

Yep. I'm Marcus Paff, and because I like to make it very difficult to contact me, I spelled my name really difficult. So it's M A R Q U E S. That's marcus@ amplitudemediapartners.com well, gentlemen,

[C]

thank you so much. A quick message here for the podcasters and here I am holding up a sheet to read. I'll try not to crinkle it. Folks, if you would like more info on podcast advertising, Elsie is leading a are you ready for podcast ads? Workshop. It's a practical workshop that goes beyond simply turning ads on. She'll help you assess whether your show is ready for advertising while sharing lessons that apply. Whether you're exploring programmatic ads, sponsorships, affiliate partnerships, or other revenue opportunities, you'll leave with a clear understanding of where your podcast stands today and what to focus on next. And then we'll follow that up with a quote, captivate Marketplace walkthrough, unquote, A hands on session where Danny and Elsie will show you exactly how Captivate Marketplace works, how to set up and manage campaigns, and how to make the most of the platform for your podcast. Check the show notes for the details. Once again, I would like to thank Dave, Luke and Marcus for being guests on today's episode. Thank you, gentlemen.

[B]

It.