Podcast Summary: In Good Company with Nicolai Tangen – Highlights with Saul Perlmutter (Dec 26, 2025)

Main Theme and Purpose

In this episode, Nicolai Tangen, CEO of the Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund, interviews Nobel Prize-winning physicist Saul Perlmutter. The conversation dives into Third Millennium Thinking—Perlmutter's approach to applying scientific methods for solving complex societal problems—and explores leadership lessons from scientific collaborations, major breakthroughs in cosmology, and the importance of communication and humility in group problem-solving.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Third Millennium Thinking: Bringing Science to Everyday Problem Solving

• Concept and Purpose

  • Perlmutter introduces "Third Millennium Thinking," his approach to integrating the scientific method into daily life and societal problem-solving.
  • Quote [00:49]:
    "What we really want to capture is the direction in which we think. The best of our scientific style of thinking has been helping our whole society be able to do better in working through problems together."
    — Saul Perlmutter

• Application Beyond Science

  • Emphasizes that everyone can use elements of scientific thinking, especially in communication and collaborative problem-solving.
  • The real unsolved problem is how we talk and work things out together, rather than our ability to technically solve issues.

2. The Paradox of Modern Capability and Communication Breakdown

• Existential Potential

  • Humanity now knows how to address massive challenges—hunger, pandemics, climate change, even potential asteroid impacts.
  • Quote [01:48]:
    "We are the first generations on this planet who have the ability to solve planetary sized problems."
    — Saul Perlmutter

• Persistent Communication Failures

  • Despite this knowledge, we fail to act effectively due to poor dialogue and cooperation.
  • Quote [03:07]:
    "At that very moment, we're having a hard time interacting with each other and communicating well enough in a productive way so that we can do this work."
    — Saul Perlmutter

3. Individual Humility vs. Collective Arrogance

• Scientific Humility

  • Progress in science stems from constant self-doubt and error-seeking—scientists look for mistakes in their work and would welcome big paradigm shifts if errors are uncovered.
  • Quote [03:38]:
    "Most of what we did as scientists that has made successful is to consider the possibility that we're making a mistake... that's really where our superpower lies."
    — Saul Perlmutter

• Balancing Group Confidence

  • While individuals stay humble, teams build confidence in their collective process.

4. Science as a Team Sport

• Shifting Nature of Discovery

  • Scientific advances are now usually made by teams, not individuals.
  • Even Perlmutter’s "small" group for his Nobel-winning project involved about thirty people; later iterations had hundreds.
  • Quote [04:59]:
    "Science has become less and less of a single person activity... Even rather small groups are still often groups of people doing projects."
    — Saul Perlmutter

• Challenges of Team Collaboration

  • Balancing information-sharing with the need for independent checks to catch errors; sometimes requires intentionally forming splinter groups.
  • Quote [05:51]:
    "There's a danger then that if they've shared too much, then you don't get the independent comparisons that you can often find the errors with."
    — Saul Perlmutter

5. Perseverance Through Uncertainty

• Long Timelines in Research

  • Perlmutter’s team worked for over a decade before publishing their groundbreaking findings; early expectations were wildly optimistic.
  • Quote [06:39]:
    "We thought that was going to take three years... At the end of three years, we had zero supernovae, not 30."
    — Saul Perlmutter

• Unpredictable Nature of Breakthroughs

  • Finding suitable supernovae was a painstaking process; only after several years did they begin generating results at scale.

6. Explaining a Mind-Boggling Universe

• Expanding Infinity
  • Perlmutter addresses the classic paradox: how can an infinite universe expand?
  • Quote [08:22]:
    "It's not expanding into anything else. It's that we're adding extra space between all points... We're just adding a little bit extra space and slightly bigger because of that. And it's still infinite."
    — Saul Perlmutter

7. Personal Priorities: On Going to Mars

• On Exploration
  • While appreciative of space exploration ambition, Perlmutter says he wouldn't go to Mars himself.
  • Quote [09:30]:
    "I would never go... There's so many things I enjoy doing... that I would hate to give all that up just for this one thing."
    — Saul Perlmutter

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Topic | |-----------|--------------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:49 | Saul Perlmutter | "What we really want to capture is the direction in which we think..." | | 01:48 | Saul Perlmutter | "We are the first generations on this planet who have the ability to solve planetary sized problems." | | 03:07 | Saul Perlmutter | "We're having a hard time interacting with each other and communicating well enough..." | | 03:38 | Saul Perlmutter | "Most of what we did as scientists...is to consider the possibility that we're making a mistake ..." | | 04:59 | Saul Perlmutter | "Science has become less and less of a single person activity..." | | 05:51 | Saul Perlmutter | "There's a danger then that if they've shared too much... you don't get the independent comparisons..." | | 06:39 | Saul Perlmutter | "We thought that was going to take three years... At the end of three years, we had zero supernovae..." | | 08:22 | Saul Perlmutter | "It's not expanding into anything else. It's... adding extra space between all points..." | | 09:30 | Saul Perlmutter | "I would never go...I would hate to give all that up just for this one thing." |

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:43 – Defining "Third Millennium Thinking"
• 01:36 – Humanity’s capacity to solve major problems
• 03:33 – The role of humility and error-seeking in science
• 04:55 – Science as a team activity and its new challenges
• 06:25 – Persevering through long, uncertain research
• 08:15 – The expanding universe explained simply
• 09:27 – Personal stance on going to Mars

Overall Tone and Style

The conversation is warm, direct, and intellectually curious. Perlmutter is reflective and engaging, bringing complex ideas down to earth with analogies and humility. Tangen’s questions are insightful, focused on both the human and practical aspects of scientific leadership and collaboration.

Conclusion

This highlight episode showcases Saul Perlmutter’s reflections on how scientific thinking can empower individual and collective problem-solving, the critical role of communication and humility, the shift towards collaborative scientific achievements, and the perseverance needed for major breakthroughs. The dialogue is thought-provoking, offering actionable insights for both scientific and everyday challenges.