In Good Faith With Philip DeFranco

Episode: Democratic Backsliding & Spy Stories Feat. Ben Rhodes
Date: October 16, 2025
Guest: Ben Rhodes (Former Deputy National Security Advisor to President Obama; Pod Save the World co-host)

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the core anxieties and realities shaping US and global democratic norms. Philip DeFranco hosts Ben Rhodes for a candid and often personal conversation about American democratic backsliding, the Israel-Gaza war, manipulation in media and politics, the role of elites, threats of authoritarianism, and the future of the Democratic Party. Rhodes shares exclusive stories from his time in government—including being targeted by ex-Mossad spies—and explores what the US can learn from recent international history.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Rhodes’ Retrospective on US Foreign Policy & Vindication

• Ben Rhodes reflects on being an early public critic of Netanyahu and the Israeli right, his role in the Iran nuclear deal, and opening diplomatic relations with Cuba.
• Rhodes claims many in US foreign policy circles privately agreed with him about Netanyahu and the direction of Israeli politics but were afraid to speak publicly.

  “I was saying things publicly that I know other people…would say behind closed doors, and they wouldn’t say it out in the open.” (02:40, Ben Rhodes)

2. The Israel-Gaza Ceasefire & US Coverage

• Rhodes describes the ceasefire as bittersweet—“triumphalism”—given the scale of death, destruction, and displacement in Gaza, and criticizes media for "moving on" too quickly.

  “20,000 Palestinian kids did not need to die…Where’s the accountability for that?” (04:47, Ben Rhodes)

• He notes the ceasefire “doesn’t solve the problem. It’s by definition a ceasefire,” warning about unresolved questions regarding Hamas, the presence of the IDF in Gaza, and humanitarian concerns.

3. Being Targeted By Mossad Spies: The Black Cube Story

• Rhodes recounts being surveilled after leaving government:

  “I literally, when I left government, had ex-Mossad spies following me...Black Cube...contacted my wife pretending to be movie producers.” (07:23, Ben Rhodes)

• He suspects the intent was intimidation rather than blackmail, and describes online disinformation tactics to manipulate public perception:

  “Somebody is doing to you what we would do for you...manipulating the algorithm so that the stuff that is...the most important content about you is at the top.” (09:33, Ben Rhodes)

4. Democratic Backsliding & the Authoritarian Playbook

• Rhodes breaks down the “authoritarian playbook” and draws parallels between the US, Hungary, Turkey, and Russia.

  “Orban got elected on right-wing populism. He enriched cronies, bought the media, redistricted, packed the courts…Wrapped it in an us vs. them message...This is the playbook and it’s happening here now.” (10:38, Ben Rhodes)

• Critiques new American norms:

  “It’s not normal that there’s a militarized police force in ICE...characteristic of other authoritarian regimes...answers only to the President.” (12:46, Ben Rhodes)

• Warns of potential Justice Department manipulation and military misuse in future elections.

5. Media Manipulation and the Rise of Billionaire-Owned News

• Rhodes voices concern over CBS’s new ownership and Bari Weiss’s editorial appointment:

  “This is the Hungarian playbook, the Turkish playbook, the Russian playbook. You get your billionaire friends to buy the media.” (17:05, Ben Rhodes)

• Critiques Weiss as “designed in a laboratory to appeal to a certain kind of American billionaire”—emphasizing media’s role in shaping or sanitizing elite interests.

6. The Role of Elites and Populism in US Politics

• Explains the American oligarch class’s tendency to preserve their own interests and “stay on the inside”:

  “The people most disappointing...these are actually people with the means to stand up to Trump.” (23:16, Ben Rhodes)

• Expresses disappointment with Democratic leadership, contrasting it with “populism to fight populism”—highlighting AOC and Bernie Sanders as rare authentic voices.

7. Failures of Democratic Leadership

• Both DeFranco and Rhodes critique party leaders like Schumer and Jeffries:

  “You never wonder whether [Bernie Sanders] had to have a meeting to figure out what he wanted to say...You feel that way when you hear Schumer and Jeffries.” (28:15, Ben Rhodes)

• They discuss the need for authenticity and boldness in opposition during authoritarian shifts.

8. Forecasting Disruption, War, and Economic Collapse

• Rhodes predicts significant domestic and international disruption:

  “This kind of politics...is not just the U.S. If you look globally...this is not the collection of people that is going to lead to a soft landing.” (28:22, Ben Rhodes)

• Warns of unsustainable economic trends and potential for major crisis unless profound changes are made.

9. Venezuela and American Military Adventurism

• Rhodes expresses concern about US military posturing towards Venezuela—a convergence of ideological, economic, and political interests:

  “Authoritarian leaders use war as a justification to claim more power…Everything Trump does seems to be about what gives him more power.” (33:01, Ben Rhodes)

10. What Democratic Guardrails Remain?

• America’s unique decentralized federal structure—and state-run elections—are cited as the final bulwark against authoritarian consolidation:

  “The thing that is different is the fact that we have a lot of power...in ways that are not the case in [other countries]...elections...are administered by the states.” (36:50, Ben Rhodes)

11. Redistricting & the End of Playing Nice

• Rhodes supports California’s aggressive move to secure more Democratic seats, arguing that Democrats must stop playing by the old rules:

  “If you are acting normal while the other people...are abiding by no rules...you’re not just going to lose, you’re going to get obliterated.” (38:57, Ben Rhodes)

12. Shifting Political Allegiances Post-October 7th

• Rhodes discusses the psychological challenge for American Jews (and single-issue Israel voters) in reconciling recent Israeli policy with past ideals:

  “To acknowledge that that’s happening is to reprogram your entire story about this government in Israel.” (41:07, Ben Rhodes)

13. Lessons from Poland & Movement Building

• Poland’s reversal of democratic decline cited as evidence that mass, broad-based, big-tent civic mobilization can succeed:

  “If you’re fighting an authoritarian takeover, you cannot fight with each other full stop.” (46:52, Ben Rhodes)

14. Personal Insights, Career Reflections, and Lighter Moments

• Rhodes shares pivotal moments: 9/11 inspiring his move from fiction writing to public policy, the loss of innocence over the reality of American power, and the importance of remaining an outsider to maintain perspective.

  “Looking at power from the inside out…I want to spend the rest of my life looking at power from the outside in.” (50:58, Ben Rhodes)

• Candidly jokes about his “second-class” status on Pod Save the World thumbnails:

  “It is very clear who is being promoted…and who is kind of like the help.” (49:12, Ben Rhodes)

15. The Democratic Party’s Dilemma and AOC’s Prospects

• Rhodes asserts that Democrats fare better with dynamic, outside-the-system candidates—predicts a growing appetite for “President AOC” types as fatigue with the establishment grows.

  “You don’t beat Trump with [establishment candidates]. That is perfect for him...when are Democrats going to learn that picking the next person up...tends to lead you to lose?” (57:50, Ben Rhodes)

• Criticizes the party’s obsession with “electability” over true public resonance.

16. Who Gives Rhodes Hope?

• Zohra Mamdani, AOC, Bernie Sanders, Ro Khanna, Chris Murphy, and grassroots activism inspire optimism for a renewed, vibrant opposition.

  “You’re not gonna win unless people are having a good time. The Obama campaign was a great time…It has to be fun to fight authoritarianism.” (63:00, Ben Rhodes)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

(Timestamps for direct reference)

• “[On being targeted] They had pictures of my car, my parents’ phone number...felt like intimidation was as much the point.” (07:23–10:14, Ben Rhodes)
• “[On CBS and billionaire media takeover] That’s the Hungarian playbook...You get your billionaire friends to buy the media.” (17:05, Ben Rhodes)
• “[On Dem leadership] You never wonder whether Bernie had a meeting to figure out what he wanted to say...you feel that way with Schumer and Jeffries.” (28:15, Ben Rhodes)
• “[On civil mobilization] If you’re fighting an authoritarian takeover, you cannot fight with each other full stop.” (46:52, Ben Rhodes)
• “[On political transformation] Looking at power from the inside out…and I want to spend the rest of my life looking at power from the outside in.” (50:58, Ben Rhodes)
• “[On the Democratic Party] You don't beat Trump with [establishment]...that is perfect for him. When are Democrats going to learn that picking the next person up...tends to lead you to lose when you roll the dice?“ (57:50, Ben Rhodes)

Important Segment Timestamps

• [02:40] – Rhodes on being right about Netanyahu; private vs. public criticism.
• [04:47] – Ceasefire in Israel-Gaza; media’s blind spots.
• [07:23] – The Black Cube/Mossad story.
• [10:38] – Authoritarian playbook parallels.
• [14:32] – 2026/2028 election risks and “push-the-wall” analogy.
• [17:05] – CBS, Bari Weiss, and media capture concerns.
• [23:16] – Elites’ unwillingness to oppose Trump.
• [28:22] – The inevitability of disruption and the pain required for change.
• [33:01] – Venezuela as a possible flashpoint.
• [36:50] – The unique US federal system as the last guardrail.
• [41:07] – Identity politics post-October 7th in the Jewish-American community.
• [46:52] – Poland’s lesson for US democracy.
• [49:12] – The Pod Save the World thumbnail drama.
• [50:58] – Rhodes’ personal journey.
• [57:50] – Why establishment picks lose to Trump-style populism.
• [63:00] – People and movements that give Rhodes hope.

Tone & Style

Philip DeFranco keeps the tone probing but informal, mixing tough questions with his wry humor and candid asides. Rhodes matches him with earnestness, candor, and moments of dry wit—especially on personal stories and industry inside jokes. The discussion is grounded, sometimes urgent, and always unflinching about the risks facing American democracy.

Conclusion

Ben Rhodes provides both a sobering analysis of the perils facing US democracy and an insistence on the power of authentic mobilization, real populism, and cross-spectrum activism. From spy drama to political theory, the episode offers both new insights and practical guidance for anyone concerned about the future—and leaves listeners with the unmistakable call: “It has to be fun to fight authoritarianism.”