Podcast Summary: In Good Faith with Philip DeFranco

Episode: Did The US Military Commit A War Crime? W/ Rep Himes
Date: December 9, 2025
Guests: Philip DeFranco (Host), Rep. Jim Himes (D-CT)

Overview

In this episode, Philip DeFranco sits down with Congressman Jim Himes, ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee, to dissect the controversial September 2nd U.S. military airstrike in the Caribbean. The discussion expands into the legal, ethical, and political implications of the strike—widely alleged to be a war crime—while also addressing issues like the “narco-terrorist” label, the U.S. chain of command, Trump administration policies on military use, accountability in government, and broader topics in American foreign and domestic policy.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Eyewitness Account: The September 2nd Airstrikes

Details of the Strike:

• Rep. Himes viewed classified footage of the strike, describing it as “enormously disturbing” ([00:48]).
• Initial strike disabled a drug-running boat, causing a massive blaze; 9 of 11 people aboard were killed.
• Significant time elapsed; two visible survivors clung to wreckage while being monitored via clear video ([01:55]).
• Three subsequent follow-up strikes obliterated both the wreckage and the survivors ([02:56]).
• Memorable quote: “Again, no fog of war. The video is very clear.” — Rep. Himes [01:55]

Legality and Protocols:

• Himes questions the administration’s comparison of this strike to counterterror operations, explaining crucial legal and philosophical distinctions between targeting terrorists and going after narcotics traffickers ([03:31], [06:15]).
• The strike bypassed Congressional authorization and existing AUMFs; international law forbids firing upon incapacitated, shipwrecked individuals ([08:07]).

2. Narco-terrorists vs. Cartels

• The administration and supporters refer to drug runners as “narco-terrorists," justifying military action ([03:28]).
• Himes insists on maintaining the distinction: “...there really is no such thing as a narco-terrorist... groups that want to end us... that's a very different set of aspirations... than guys who want to sell more drugs.” ([06:34])
• Practical critique: targeting cocaine boats does not address the main cause of U.S. drug deaths (fentanyl) and has limited deterrence value ([08:02]).

3. Unanswered Questions About the Strike

• Oddity in numbers: 11 people on a drug boat is atypical; raises concerns some may have been trafficked persons rather than traffickers ([11:30]).
• Himes: “It's questionable enough to be using the military to take out criminals, but when you're not sure that you're also not taking out a human trafficker and the people that that human trafficker is trafficking, you got some work to do and some thinking to do.” ([12:20])
• The boat was headed south—away from the U.S.—raising further questions about the threat assessment ([12:52]).
• Survivors had no weapons, no radios, no means to pose a threat ([13:45]).

4. Is This Murder? War Crime or Law Enforcement Issue

• Himes outlines the legal paradox: “If a cop walked up in New York City and shot a drug dealer on the street, that cop would be tried, convicted and would go to jail... So if you believe that this isn't a legitimately approved military action, then yes, the word is murder. If it is... is this a violation of the laws of war?” ([15:18])
• Four total strikes, with subsequent hits effectively “obliterating” remaining evidence and survivors ([17:05]).

5. Accountability and Chain of Command

• Admiral Bradley reportedly told Himes that there was no direct “kill order” from Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth ([18:06]).
• However, Himes details the chain of command, standard military practice, and context influencing the Admiral’s decision:
  • “In the military... you can delegate authority, but you cannot delegate responsibility.” ([22:42])
  • Hegseth and President Trump’s attempts to shift blame to subordinates are contrary to longstanding military principles ([22:50]).

6. Will There Be Any Accountability?

• Himes’ outlook is deeply skeptical: “There is more chance I get drafted into the NBA than that the Trump Justice Department or the leaders are going to hold anybody accountable for this.” ([24:32])
• His hope: full public release of the video so Americans can judge for themselves ([24:32], [25:46]).
• Broader assertion: Real accountability now lies with the electorate, not the executive branch ([25:59]).

7. “Signalgate” and Hegseth’s Broader Record

• Inspector General’s report found Hegseth’s actions compromised U.S. operational security ([27:00]).
• Himes again highlights a lack of real-world consequences—predicting Hegseth will only be removed if he becomes an inconvenience to Trump ([28:08]).

8. The Larger Political Landscape

Democratic Messaging Woes:

• DeFranco and Himes discuss failures in both Democratic and Republican communications, with Himes faulting Democrats (including himself) for missing the mark on affordability issues ([32:15]).

Trump, Ukraine, and the New World Order:

• Conversation shifts to Trump’s involvement with Ukraine and alignment with Russian interests ([34:29]).
• Himes criticizes recent Trump administration peace proposals as capitulations to Russian demands, driven in part by Trump’s need for a quick “win” ([34:56], [36:40]).
• Himes: “The President has taken the opposite approach which has been to pound on the weak party here, Ukraine...” ([36:40])

Isolationism, Alliances, and National Security:

• Discussion of the shift in American foreign policy to a “spheres of influence” mindset, reducing the commitment to traditional U.S. alliances ([38:06]).
• Himes warns that undermining alliances serves adversaries and isolates America ([53:05]).

9. Republican Party, Ethnonationalism, and Bigotry

• The Republican coalition’s tug-of-war between traditional pro-immigration conservatives and the growing ethnonationalist MAGA element ([40:54]).
• Himes underscores the danger of bigotry becoming mainstreamed and the need for Democrats and Republicans to police their own coalitions ([43:23]).

10. Historical and Forward-Looking Perspective

• Despite his cynicism, Himes expresses optimism:
  • “Over time, we do become a more perfect union. And I don’t have any reason to believe that Donald Trump is going to stop that in the end.” ([55:52])
  • He points to recent elections as a sign that democracy and accountability can still function ([55:52], [56:45]).

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “The video is very clear... No fog of war." — Rep. Himes [01:55]
• “There really is no such thing as a narco-terrorist. ...That's a very different set of aspirations and strategies than guys who want to sell more drugs.” — Rep. Himes [06:34]
• “It's questionable enough to be using the military to take out criminals, but when you're not sure that you're also not taking out a human trafficker and the people that that human trafficker is trafficking, you got some work to do and some thinking to do.” — Rep. Himes [12:20]
• “In the military... you can delegate authority, but you cannot delegate responsibility.” — Rep. Himes [22:42]
• “There is more chance I get drafted into the NBA than that the Trump Justice Department or the leaders are going to hold anybody accountable for this.” — Rep. Himes [24:32]
• “Over time, we do become a more perfect union. And I don’t have any reason to believe that Donald Trump is going to stop that in the end.” — Rep. Himes [55:52]
• “Politics is working... Tuesday of last November happens because you do it. Because you register, because you vote, because you express yourself. That’s why I’m an optimist.” — Rep. Himes [56:45]

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------------|------------| | Eyewitness account of the airstrike | 00:45-03:04| | Legal/philosophical distinction (narco- vs. terrorist) | 03:31-07:31| | Debate over effectiveness of military strategy | 08:02-11:01| | Questioning intelligence and possible trafficking | 11:30-12:49| | Legal classification: murder or war crime | 15:04-16:55| | Chain of command & accountability | 18:06-23:39| | Likelihood of accountability/consequences | 24:02-25:59| | Discussion of “Signalgate” | 27:00-28:41| | Party divisions, immigration, bigotry | 40:54-44:46| | Historical perspective & optimism | 55:30-57:17|

Tone and Style

The conversation is candid and often emotionally charged. Rep. Himes combines measured legal and historical analysis with moments of frustration and cynicism about accountability in the Trump administration. DeFranco plays an engaged, often skeptical moderator, probing both legal nuance and political outcomes with concern for broader implications. Both share a commitment to transparency and democratic accountability, closing with a call for constructive optimism.

This summary is intended to provide a comprehensive, structured overview for listeners who have not heard the episode, capturing the depth and nuance of the conversation while highlighting its most urgent and engaging moments.