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- [00:03]
Joe Rogan
That's what. Okay, wait, Ben. Before we start filming, what is wrong with the red solo cup? I just want to hear you. Yeah, I should have gone. Stadium rules. Clear container. My mistake. My mistake. All right, here we go. Three, two.
- [00:22]
You know, it feels like there's no shortage of darkness in America right now. It can be really hard to, you know, look out there and have hope. And hope in a moment like this. It kind of sometimes feels like a luxury or.
- [00:31]
Or worse, like a lie.
- [00:32]
Here's what I'll say that American history tells us, and it actually tells us
- [00:35]
this over and over if we're willing to listen.
- [00:37]
When this country hits that low point, the voice that it needs has always arrived. Not early, not without suffering, but it has always arrived. Abraham Lincoln. He stood in the wreckage of a nation that was tearing itself apart, and he asked it to hold together. And then almost exactly 150 years later, you had a man stepping up to a microphone in the middle of just a country that was exhausted by war and fear and cynicism. And he reminded us that destiny isn't something that just happens to you. It is something that we write that, yes, we can. Barack Obama. He is the finest writer and the greatest orator to ever occupy the Oval Office. But the greats also don't do it alone. Simon at Garfunkel. I did that one for my dad. Jordan had Pippin. Obama had Jon Favreau. And Favreau was only 27 years old when he became the chief speechwriter for the 44th President of the United States. Was the youngest to ever hold that role. And for years, he sat at the right hand of history, turning one man's vision into words that the world would carry. He'll build one of the most notable voices of a generation. And so today, I sat down with Jon Favreau. We start at the beginning, right from the. From the moment that language first got its hooks in him, and then all the way through the White House, the. The creation of crooked media and just where we are today. Because after everything, even with this, the craziness we see out there today, he believes in the story that he helped tell.
- [01:44]
John, Easiest question of this entire podcast. How are you, sir?
- [01:48]
Jon Favreau
I'm good. Little tired, but.
- [01:51]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, I was wondering. I was wondering before we got started where I was in your day, because I. I'm kind of excited. This is like, you're my last thing, and it's. I've been looking forward to this today, and I. And so I get to hop off, go straight to dinner, but you have meetings. So I feel like I'm in a power position.
- [02:06]
Jon Favreau
I mean, I don't, you know, I also have two young children, so there are no free periods. There's no relaxing time of day for me. I'm just, I'm going, I'm going nonstop.
- [02:18]
Joe Rogan
Okay, wait, actually, that's a man already derailed. So I'm very interested. How do you transition from work to personal life? Like, do you need that 30 minute buffer? Is that like a benefit from working in an actual office? Cause we're at work from home now, have been for a few years. But that 30 minute transition, I feel like I'm not a person.
- [02:37]
Jon Favreau
I will tell you, I would like a 30 minute transition. I don't get a 30 minute transition. So I live about 10 minutes from the office. And sometimes I try when I drive home to just listen to music, but I often fail at that as well and just listen to other podcasts that I need to catch up on. And then I get into the house and what I try to do then is put my phone in my office at home, at least until the boys go to bed. And so I just have like a couple hours where I am catching up with my wife, catching up with the boys and just not doing politics.
- [03:16]
Joe Rogan
And you come back to 75 texts and they're like, hey, just so you know, we thought it was going to happen nighttime there, but we just bombed Iran.
- [03:23]
Jon Favreau
Well, it's. It's the one good thing about, well, living on the West Coast. It really does. Everything slows down at night so that it doesn't usually happen to me at night. Usually at night is where I can, after everyone goes to bed, prep for shows for the next day, catch up on news that I missed, all that kind of stuff. It's the morning on the west coast that's tough. Which is why I'm always up at like 4:35am in the morning. Because, you know, then D.C. has already started its day and it's just like a fire hose of news.
- [03:51]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [03:52]
Jon Favreau
Hit my brain with right in the morning, which is helpful.
- [03:55]
Joe Rogan
That's been the best thing about moving to the east coast in the last
- [03:57]
Jon Favreau
year and a half.
- [03:58]
Joe Rogan
I'm just like, oh, okay, this is, this is how like life operates. Unless you're a football fan and then you're just like, okay, I can't watch football anymore.
- [04:06]
Jon Favreau
It's one o' clock in the morning. Yeah, sports is good out here too.
- [04:08]
Joe Rogan
But actually, before we fully get into the interview, which I really want it to be about, you I do want to ask what are your. What are your thoughts on the Texas primary? And also, I. This is one thing I haven't kept up with. I know there were a lot of people that had a lot of skin in the game, a lot of opinions, some just kind of staying away because people were throwing haymakers left and right.
- [04:26]
Jon Favreau
Were you.
- [04:27]
Joe Rogan
What do you think about the outcome? And were you rooting for anything specifically?
- [04:30]
Jon Favreau
I'm pretty happy about the outcome. I like James Talarico. I liked him even before he jumped in the race, or at least even before everything got really heated, certainly before Jasmine Crockett jumped into the race, too. I had interviewed him. He came into the office, and I just think he's. I think he's really talented. I think that his style, the way he speaks about politics is very valuable to the party right now and to the country. And here's why. I kind of think that there's a. It's cliche by now, a cliche that makes me, like, roll my eyes when everyone says, like, oh, Democrats want. Democrats want a fighter. They need a fighter. And they need a fighter because voters like strength. And I think there's a problem in that we have not adequately defined what we mean by fighter and fighting. And one definition is that you, you know, rhetorically kick the shit out of Donald Trump and Republicans every day in a way that gets attention and in a way that, you know, excites or satisfies partisan Democrats like me, who are going to vote for Democrats no matter what. Okay? And then there's fighting the system and fighting sort of wealthy, powerful people who have screwed over the people that you are trying to represent. And so all of your passion and all of your fight is about trying to sort of restore some fairness and balance against people who have. Who, you know, who have corrupted the system and turned people away from politics and made their lives worse. And I think that telo in this race has so far done the latter, and that's what his message is focused on. And I think that's. I think that's one reason why he won. Look, I also think the. The heated nature of the campaign online is certainly not reflected or was not reflected in the electorate that showed up to vote. And that's borne out through focus groups, through polling, through reporting on the ground. Like, most of the Democrats that went to the polls, like, liked both Talarico and Crockett a lot, and for many of them, it was just a tough choice on who they selected. So I just think that the. The online craziness per usual, did not match what was actually happening on the ground.
- [06:56]
Joe Rogan
And who are you kind of hoping that Talarico is going to be going up against?
- [06:59]
Jon Favreau
I think Paxton will be easier for sure. I don't think, I think corner will be harder, but I don't think, you know, that's an insurmountable race for Talarico either. Look, I think if the so Beto O' Rourke in 2018 comes within two and a half points of Cruz, it's a very blue environment. I think Democrats win the House vote that year by eight points. If we have an environment like that again and you have a candidate like Paxton or even like Cornyn who has, you know, has high unfavorables, and then you have Trump under 50 in Texas and, and you have a really talented candidate, which I think we do in James Talarico. Like, yeah, he's got a, he's got a decent shot. Not, I wouldn't call it like 60%, 55%, but I would say in a, in a good environment, yeah, he could do it.
- [07:52]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. If there was a year, now zero. That's, that's one of the hardest things for me looking at any historical polling of where things were the last two election cycles and where we are now, because obviously we can't use these special elections to really figure out what sort of movement. But I'm very interested and I wonder how much of it ties into what happens with Iran and then if we get a right, right before the elections thing. But thank you for answering that. I. But like I said, I want a lot of this to be about you. That's a lot of me this year. But also how, how often do people ask about you? And you're usually the one I feel like asking questions. And maybe you offer a little bit of your, your insight as a, as a kind of back and forth thing. But how often?
- [08:30]
Jon Favreau
Not a lot.
- [08:31]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [08:31]
Jon Favreau
Okay. Okay. Which, you know, it's. Which, like, it's fine. I like asking questions. I love my role. There are some times when I wish I could talk more, which is why I'm happy to be here and talk with you. But. Yeah, no, I don't get asked a lot of questions myself.
- [08:51]
Joe Rogan
Then let's start pretty early on. So looking into you. Your mom's a schoolteacher, I believe, Greek family. Your dad's French Canadian. Your grandfather was a Republican state legislature legislator in New England. It's a very specific situation. Very. How do those three things, or do those three things, the teacher, the immigrant background, the Republican grandfather How does it end up shaping how you think about politics or shape you as a person?
- [09:20]
Jon Favreau
Yeah, we were like a, you know, middle class family in a suburb of Boston. My parents, I would not say that they were. There was a lot of talk about politics, but it was politics as, like you talked about the news or you talked about the sports, or you talked about the weather in New England. And so it was in our family in that sense. I can remember because, you know, when Michael Dukakis ran for President in 88, I was seven at the time. My mother's maiden name is DeMarcus. My grandfather is originally from Lowell, which is where Michael Dukakis is from, in Massachusetts, Milltown there. And so everyone was very excited that Greek was running for president, who was from Massachusetts, and my family. So there was a lot of talk about him and then my father's entire family. My father's one of nine siblings, and he, at the time growing up, was one of the only Democrats in the family. A bunch of Republicans they are now. We've converted most of them since they were old New England Republicans. But at the time, whenever I'd go up to New Hampshire, there was a lot of discussion and debate in that family about politics. And so I grew up around it. But it wasn't a passion in terms of we, you know, we want to work so hard and organize and all this kind of stuff and get involved in politics. And that didn't come until high school and really college.
- [10:42]
Joe Rogan
Okay, so even in high school, though, was there a moment in high school where. Where all of a sudden it piqued your interest? Because I feel like for, for myself, it didn't happen until I was in college. Like, I. I cared about the news, I wanted to talk to people. But unlike, I guess, the environment now where there are kids in my, my, my kids elementary school that are talking about politics, which is blowing my mind. Like, that was loser stuff back then. You didn't talk about it. It was like they shamed you away from it. They're like, just go watch. Go watch like sports like a normal person.
- [11:10]
Jon Favreau
Yeah. In high school I was a nerd in like, I liked American government. I liked history. So I was just like, drawn to those classes. I also ran for student council. I was in student council in high school. I was the editor of the newspaper. And so I was writing like, opinion columns in the newspaper, the school newspaper. But it was about, like, local townie shit. It wasn't really about national politics. So I sort of. I had the basis there early, but it Wasn't until I went to College of the Holy Cross in Worcester, Massachusetts, Jesuit school and very focused on the Jesuit ideals of service and community. And I was raised Catholic. I wasn't particularly religious. It's not why I went to Holy Cross, But I felt like the Jesuit education I got, particularly the push to have people serve in the community, which I did in Worcester quite a bit. That is the first time as I was doing community service, I was like, oh, what I'm learning in college is connected to what I'm doing here. And politics is sort of the key that unlocks potentially, you know, real change. That would mean that you don't have to fix problems, like one person at a time going out and doing community service, but actually pass legislation that would help lots of people all at once.
- [12:31]
Joe Rogan
I'm very intrigued by. Well, in general, I've always been intrigued by how your brain specifically works. But has. Was there. I don't know. Let me. Let me phrase it with this question, right? Your mom, right, says that you were reciting the Night Before Christmas from memory at 2 years old. Right. You also played classical piano. Seriously. At Holy Cross, which I think anyone that's on that can play piano competently. I'm just like, how does your brain work? When did you figure out, like, words? And specifically performing them, not just writing them, was, like, the thing for you. Because even you talking.
- [13:09]
Jon Favreau
Yeah.
- [13:09]
Joe Rogan
When you say certain things like, how does that work? Here's how. Like, I'm like, okay, I'm seeing certain building blocks. I'm very interested.
- [13:15]
Jon Favreau
It's funny, because now, because I had spent so much time. I have spent so much time in my life with Obama, a lot of it is from him, and I, like, have picked up some of his mannerisms that I. But even before him, I think it's one of the reasons I was drawn to him. It goes back as far as I can remember. Like, I've just always loved books. I always loved reading as a kid. I think probably when I was really young, I was like, bit of a chubby nerd. Didn't have a ton of friends in elementary school. So I think I. Part of that was, like, I was drawn to books and reading because it was my own thing to do and I could be good at it. I wasn't good at sports, and so that's part of it. But I always. I mean, there's like, old. My parents will now drag them out. There's, like, old videos of me and a friend in the neighborhood and my brother, like, doing a fake news show, it's called News around the House. And we would like, go to different rooms of the house and we would do like, now's the news and now's the weather, now's sports. And so like, even back, back then, I was doing sort of newsy performing, you know, politically adjacent things, which is funny because I don't even know where it came from. I just, it was just an instinct, you know.
- [14:25]
Joe Rogan
Well, I mean, yeah, okay, so. But then you get to college, right? And you write a college thesis about it. Makes me realize that maybe our problems aren't new, they're just more exaggerated now. But you write a college thesis about white working class voters leaving the Democratic Party.
- [14:40]
Jon Favreau
Right?
- [14:40]
Joe Rogan
That was, that was, that was 2002.
- [14:43]
Jon Favreau
2002.
- [14:45]
Joe Rogan
Were you, were you, what were you seeing then? Were you prophetic? Like, what. Why does it, why for so many people, did it only become obvious later?
- [14:52]
Jon Favreau
Yeah, at that point. Let's see, in 2000, I mean, I, I had started to. I interned in the Boston State House one summer. I was getting ready. The thesis I wrote was after I interned for a semester in Washington D.C. and I interned in John Kerry's office. I'm from Massachusetts, he was my home state senator, so I interned at his office, but I interned in the press office. And I sat with his speechwriter, communications director, political director, as they were thinking about a potential presidential run for John Kerry. So I kind of like, I was bitten by the political bug then and as part of. You had to pick a thesis. And as part of my thesis and everything I was reading in all my poli sci classes, you know, I was sort of enamored with how Bill Clinton won in 92 after sort of just years and years of Democrats being in the wilderness. And, you know, it was like reading Stan Greenberg, who was his pollster, who's still a pollster now, reading his books. And all this stuff was for school. And so much of it was, you know, Clinton trying to win back the Reagan Democrats who had left the party by emphasizing economic populism and all the rest. And so that was sort of my thesis. I remember at the time thinking, you know, Clinton sort of moderated on a lot of cultural and social issues and even way, way, way back then in 2002. Some of them even then to me seemed like, eh, it's a little too much. I feel like the next Democrat who's going to win should not moderate as much as Clinton did, because I think we're a little bit past that also. And then of course, the war in Iraq starts and that scrambles our politics. So the white working class thesis that I did that was like right before. That was before the war really got going. And then the next thesis I write in senior year was basically after the 2002 midterms when Democrats got fucking clobbered. And it was one of the worst losses ever because you know, it's the out party in a year where George W. Bush's president usually does well and we just did so poorly. And it was mainly because of 911 and how George W. Bush responded to it.
- [17:07]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, it interested me that that was your thesis because it does feel like then you spent like the next 20 years trying to hold together this coalition and then you see all these failures you become part of. Obviously we'll get to Obama. But I was also interesting interested with the Carrie campaign. Right. Do you feel like getting started clipping talk radio audio has helped you kind of figure out this new, this new environment we have where everything is either an hour long or 30 second clips.
- [17:36]
Jon Favreau
That's, that's a good point. You know it's funny, we never really, never really got the. It was called the radio actuality program off the ground which was like you were supposed to like John Kerry was supposed to record some things and then we would like pitch them to radio stations in Iowa who were very rural who would just like take a recording I guess. But even then they were like they were rejecting that. But what doing the clips at the time we called them the clips every morning Waking up at 4am helped me to do was I read everything before everyone else. I read like every single newspaper. I read all the news. I am still in our company right now where I am a co founder, probably the most intense media monitor of anyone in the company.
- [18:21]
Joe Rogan
You need that person that's cracked out on news.
- [18:25]
Jon Favreau
Yes. And that was me. So I got that start during the Kerry campaign and I liked that I was always up on the news and you know that sort of in between that and being a speechwriter, they had graduated me to like writing the talking points, the daily talking points for the campaign. Not just like not for the, not for the senator but for everyone else who was out in the field and in Iowa and New Hampshire and, and that helped me figure out how to, to make things concise and to kind of condense a message and sort of edit stuff out that wasn't important and try to be as succinct as possible.
- [19:00]
Joe Rogan
Do you feel like it kind of. There was kind of a chaos that launched your career there because you start out with the clips, but then it feels like, am I correct in that the campaign was kind of falling apart? And so that's how you end up being a speechwriter all of a sudden, like, okay, this is my job. And do you find that has been a consistent thing of. In the chaos, that's where growth happens, or that was that only really is maybe like the, the beginning, the spark, where that happens it.
- [19:24]
Jon Favreau
For me, it's. It's happened quite a few times. And whenever young people ask me, you know, who are interested in politics, what they should do, I always suggest campaigns because campaigns are. And I haven't been on one in a while, so maybe it's different now, but usually they are short staffed, short on cash, and a bit chaotic. And so there is not the rigid or the rigid hierarchy that you have in so many other organizations where if you don't have the qualifications, if you didn't put in the time, if you're too young, you can't sort of, you know, climb up the ladder. And in campaigns, if you show up all the time, you're willing to put in the work and you have the talent, like, you'll get the chance to prove yourself. And mine was. My situation was particularly lucky because, yeah, as you. As you mentioned, John Kerry, who starts off as one of the front runners, suddenly falls to the back of the pack. When Howard Dean becomes the new frontrunner and John Kerry is almost out of money, he has to mortgage his house. There's like a mutiny on the campaign. The campaign manager is fired. A bunch of other people quit. My boss, Robert Gibbs, goes on to be Obama's White House press secretary, quits basically all of the. I was the press assistant to, like a whole bunch of people, many of whom who quit, many of whom quit. And I had been sitting next to Andre Cherney, who was our speechwriter, and I thought his job was very cool. And I loved speechwriting. I had wanted to try writing too. And he kept telling me, no, I couldn't do it because he needed to hire someone with more experience. And so I was like, well, if you need a hand, I'm here to help. Even free in my spare time, I can help you write stuff. And then when everyone left the campaign and we were really screwed, that's when they decided that they would make me deputy speechwriter because they didn't have to pay me more. I was only making $24,000 a year, so they didn't have to pay me more and they didn't think the campaign would last. That much longer. And so I got promoted. And then you know something, you know something.
- [21:33]
Barack Obama
If you had told us one year
- [21:34]
Jon Favreau
ago that we were going to come
- [21:35]
Barack Obama
in third in Iowa, we would have
- [21:37]
Jon Favreau
given anything for that. And you know something?
- [21:41]
Barack Obama
You know something?
- [21:42]
Jon Favreau
Not only are we going to New
- [21:44]
Barack Obama
Hampshire, Tom Harkin, we're going to South Carolina and Oklahoma and Arizona and North Dakota and New Mexico, and we're going to California and Texas and New York, and we're going to South Dakota and Oregon and Washington and Michigan. And then we're going to Washington, D.C. to take back the White House.
- [22:04]
Jon Favreau
John Kerry wins the primary.
- [22:06]
Joe Rogan
There you go. Yeah, I will say, as someone that's talked about it a little bit and then a lot more over the last eight years, as far as politics, I've always come at it from just a regular schmo guy that's consuming news and curating it.
- [22:23]
Hey, I'll get you right back to
- [22:24]
the podcast in a minute, but first
- [22:25]
let me thank a sponsor and say, you know, once it starts warming up, life gets busier fast, more plans, longer days and time to deal with dinner. So on those nights when I want real food but I don't have the time to cook, I grabbed today's Sponsor Factor. Take earlier this week, for example. My day ran long and everything felt just extra. The Factor Garlic, rosemary, pork chop. It was easy, it was fast, and it hit exactly right because Factor they deliver fully prepared meals designed by dietitians and crafted by chefs, ready in about two minutes with no planning or cooking required. It's not just convenience food pretending to be healthy. We're talking lean proteins, veggies and balanced meals that make it easier eat well without turning dinner into a second job. Factor skips a lot of the junk. No refined sugars, no artificial sweeteners and no refined seed oils. And you've got options 100 rotating weekly meals with categories like High Protein, Calorie, Smart, Mediterranean and more, plus salads and MusclePro meals. Factor is the move when takeout's too expensive, fast food sounds rough and you still want to eat like an adult. So make this your move. Head to FactorMeals.com IGF50OFF and use code IGF50OFF to get 50% off and free breakfast for a year offer only valid for new Factor customers with code and qualifying auto renewing subscription purchase. Make healthier eating easy with Factor
- [23:30]
to go back to. This is a little bit kind of on chaos, but this is maybe more about I'll use the word audacity because for audacity for hope in 23. Or wait, wait, wait. No, no. You're 23 back then. You're backstage at the 2004 DNC. Barack Obama is rehearsing his keynote. You walk up to him and you tell him that Kerry needs one of his lines. Is this a. This is a question, or are you telling Obama? And with that, where. Where do you get the audacity? Because obviously, this is a moment that I think changes your life.
- [24:03]
Jon Favreau
I did not have the audacity. I was basically, like, ordered to do it.
- [24:07]
Joe Rogan
Okay.
- [24:09]
Jon Favreau
And I. For people who know me, I don't know if you can. You might not be able to tell on Twitter, on the pod, but I hate conflict. It is like the. The idea that I would have to go tell anyone, let alone Barack Obama, something uncomfortable that could potentially cause conflict. Like, it gets me anxious thinking about it now. So I was. Yeah, so I was very junior speechwriter in the Kerry campaign, which means I didn't go on the road with him. I was. And they sent me to Boston to be backstage. There's a. There's a room of speechwriters at every convention, I think, Republican and Democrat, who sort of help with all the speeches that are being given at the convention, because there's just so many. My job there as the representative from the Kerry campaign was to, like, make sure that all the speeches match the message of the Kerry campaign, and nothing was too crazy. So I was working on a bunch of different people's speeches, just helping out. And then I got a call from the road, the campaign plane, from the head speechwriter at the time, who is now Congressman Josh gottheimer from New Jersey. And gottheimer said, yeah, he wants this line from Barack Obama's speech. And he did. I was like, he wants the line. He's like, yeah, well, he's going to use the line. And I'm like, did he already have the line? Because I've seen drafts of the speech. Like, did he already have the line? It's like, no. No. I think he was pretty. I think he was taking the line. So they asked me. So he asked me. He told me I had to go do it. So, like, I went to where Obama was practicing, and the one thing that I thought would save me is Robert Gibbs, who had been my boss in the Kerry campaign, was now working for Obama, and Gibbs was there. So I was like, well, I'm not going to have to go talk to Obama. I can just talk to Gibbs. And I went and told Gibbs the whole thing, and he was like, and then Obama heard us talking and was like, what's going on here? And Gibbs is like, go ahead, tell him. So that's. So I just sort of just tossed into it. Yeah, I was just tossed into it. And I. And I told him, and he was like, you know, walked up to, like, within an inch of my face, and I was like, are you telling me I have to take out my favorite line? And I was just, you know, I think I lost consciousness. And, um. And then that's when David Axelrod, who I had never met, walked up to me and said, son, let's. Let's walk outside and we'll. We'll rewrite the line together. And. And we did. It was the first. First of many, many years of collaboration between AX&I.
- [26:25]
Joe Rogan
And then when you watch him speak, do you kind of. Do you know that night? Okay, there's something different about this guy. There's something different about this moment. Or you were like, maybe there's something there. And it took time.
- [26:39]
Jon Favreau
No, I knew it for sure. And I had seen the speech, and I thought the speech was. I mean, after having seen so many speeches at the convention or read so many speeches at the convention before they were delivered, and after having spent so much time on John Kerry's campaign reading his speeches and helping to write his speeches, I was like, oh, this is different, this speech. But I still didn't know how it would go until I was on the floor the next night and he delivered the speech.
- [27:08]
Barack Obama
Now, even as we speak, there are those who are preparing to divide us. The spin masters, the negative ad peddlers who embrace the politics of anything goes. Well, I say to them tonight, there is not a liberal America and a conservative America. There is the United States of America. There is not a black America and a white America and Latino America and Asian America. There's the United States of America. The pundits like to slice and dice our country into red states and blue states. Red states for Republicans, blue states for Democrats. But I've got news for them, too. We worship an awesome God in the blue states. And we don't like federal agents poking around in our libraries in the red states.
- [28:00]
Jon Favreau
States.
- [28:03]
Barack Obama
We coach Little League in the blue states. And yes, we've got some gay friends in the red states. There are patriots who opposed the war in Iraq, and there are patriots who supported the war in Iraq. We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America.
- [28:25]
Jon Favreau
And I was just like, oh, my God, like, this Is wild. Right? But, you know, then it's. It's July of 2004, and sort of goes out of my mind because we have the rest of the race to go. We lose. And, I mean, you were speaking about sort of what happens after a campaign, especially among young people. And I was back in Boston, you know, and I remember the event at Faneuil hall, and just looking around at the new friends I had made on the campaign, and everyone was just devastated. And. And then I went home and lived with my parents again. And then Kerry, you know, months later, Kerry called me up and was like, I'm the titular head of the party right now, and I'm probably gonna run again for president, or at least I'm gonna think about it. And I really loved your speeches, and I loved how you. And I want you to come back and work for me. And now. I don't think he knew who I was. I think his very tal. Wonderful comms director, slash speechwriter, David Wade, who I know very well, probably told him, this is your best bet.
- [29:36]
Joe Rogan
I like the idea of a speechwriter giving someone a speech to hire another speechwriter. It's just every. And then. And then another speechwriter gives you your response.
- [29:46]
Jon Favreau
Yes. And I should say years, years later, you know, Cary was like, I should have. John Kerry and I are good now. But anyway, at the time. So he offers me this job. And I was, like, thinking about it, and my parents wanted me to go to law school. And so I was thinking about that. And then Gibbs reaches out, and he's like, obama needs a speechwriter. Would you be interested? And I was like, why does he need a speechwriter? He's like, well, he doesn't think. He does. He doesn't think he needs a speechwriter. He wants to keep writing all the speeches himself because that's what he's been doing. He's wrong. He's going to be a senator. He's never been this busy. And so why don't you have lunch with him, have breakfast with him, and see how it goes? And I read Dreams for My Father. And I finished reading that book, and I remember telling my parents, I was like, I gotta go see about this, because this book is incredible. And I can't believe a person who wrote a book this honest and interesting is now a US Senator and also gave that speech. And, like, I gotta see where this goes.
- [30:50]
Joe Rogan
And is that meeting. Is that where he asks you about your theory of writing?
- [30:55]
Jon Favreau
Yes. Yeah.
- [30:56]
Joe Rogan
Okay.
- [30:56]
Jon Favreau
And I was like, I have.
- [30:57]
Joe Rogan
No, because. What was it you told him speeches could broaden the circle of people who care. And so does he hire you on the spot?
- [31:04]
Jon Favreau
Yeah. He basically said, I still don't think I need a speechwriter. But Gibbs says I do. You seem nice enough. Let's see how this works.
- [31:15]
Joe Rogan
What's the worst that could happen?
- [31:17]
Jon Favreau
Yeah, that's what that was. That's what it was. And I, you know, and I packed up all my stuff and I moved back to Washington.
- [31:23]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [31:23]
Jon Favreau
Oh, wow. So just.
- [31:24]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, just like that. I mean, I get it. If you're. If all of a sudden you're like, okay, this. I'm a true believer. Why not? Why wouldn't you do it?
- [31:31]
Jon Favreau
And I also thought, he's not. I'm not gonna get. Cause at that point, I was tired. We'd just done a presidential campaign. I was like, I don't wanna do another presidential campaign. But luckily, Barack Obama's not gonna run for president. He just got to the Senate. And so I'll do this for a couple years, and then maybe when, oh, 8 comes around, as opposed to, like, getting in that. Getting involved in that, I'll just go to law school.
- [31:50]
Joe Rogan
Okay. So something you actually commented on earlier, and it's got me thinking here. You said sometimes, or I think you said something along the lines of like, sometimes. I was writing for Obama so much, it kind of changed how I talk. Right. You've also been called kind of like Obama's mind reader. How do you do that? And also, like.
- [32:07]
And also, how do you. How do you learn to write in
- [32:10]
someone else's voice like that? Are you essentially acting or is it something else?
- [32:15]
Jon Favreau
I. When I started with him, I told Gibbs and I told Obama, like, I need to be around him as much as possible. Get to know him, talk to him. And I'm not saying this because I'm, like, just another staffer who wants FaceTime with the boss. Like, part of it was born of my experience on the Kerry campaign. John Kerry had a very close advisor in Bob Shrum who was like, his speech person, who's like a David Axelrod for him and would look over all his speeches and write speeches. He wrote Ted Kennedy's convention speech when he dropped out. And so all the speechwriters would go through Shrum, and none of us really would ever sit with John Kerry and figure out what was on John Kerry's mind. And because of that, John Kerry would sometimes literally have four different speeches written by four different people in front of him because he would go for outside advice because he wasn't feeling good about his speech. And that's what his speeches sounded like. And all the Clinton people who joined the Kerry campaign in the general election would say, oh, that's sort of what it was like with Bill Clinton, too. And I was like, look, I had come to think that the only way that something as an odd and intimate relationship, speech rating is the only way that works is if the two people really get to know each other. And OB Obama was very amenable to that. And so I sat right outside his office in the Senate and would see him all the time. I went to every single constituent coffee he did and just listened to the questions he got and the way he would answer the questions. He was writing Audacity of Hope, his second book. As soon as he got to the Senate, he would send me chapters of Audacity of Hope, and I would edit them. But it was also just incredibly valuable to read them and read how he thinks and how he edits and all that kind of stuff. And so it was just a. It was just trial and error and, like, really getting to know him and how he speaks and. And having interesting conversations with him about politics and about life that helped me figure out how he talks and how not just how he talks, but how he thinks.
- [34:21]
Joe Rogan
Who's the better writer?
- [34:23]
Jon Favreau
He's the better writer, for sure.
- [34:25]
Joe Rogan
So then writing for someone who's a better writer than you, what's the. What's the ego experience of that? Is there one?
- [34:32]
Jon Favreau
There's not. It's. It's. It's weird because I always saw it as an incredible gift that, like, there's this. When I would send a speech, there's two ways the speech would come back. If the speech came back with, like, no edits on it or very few edits, I would be like, okay, whatever. I don't even think he cares about it this much. And that. That would happen with, like, smaller remarks. Sometimes the speech would come back with, like, see me, we're not there yet. And then I would get very, like, nervous. And that's when you're like, oh, shit, I fucked this up, or this is not good. And then I'd sit with him, and he'd come up with ideas, and we would just talk it through. But then a lot of times the speech would come back and it would just be, like, so marked up, and he would have, like, extra yellow note pages, like a big yellow notepad. And he would have, like, pages and pages just written. And he'd be like, well, I like what you did here. I like the end. I like this part, but I just wrote this part myself. And I don't exactly know where it goes, but it's like an interesting. And that, to me, was the best scenario because what he wrote would always be the kind of thing that you just have not heard from any other politician. That is a new idea, a new way of saying something so interesting, so fresh. And then it would be my job to figure out, because he, he's a writer before he is a speaker, even though people wouldn't think that. And so my job would be to figure out, okay, how to condense this 11 extra pages he gave me into what should be like a three or four page speech without losing what makes it special. And then. And, you know, sanding it down so much that it's just another, you know, democratic politician speech that anyone could deliver. And I love that challenge. And I. And I learned from it. And so, like I learned, my writing improved because of him.
- [36:27]
Joe Rogan
And regarding speeches, if we, if we talk about a specific one, you know, let's say a more perfect union, right? Philadelphia, March 2008. A lot of people consider it the best political speech in maybe like the last 30 years.
- [36:41]
Barack Obama
We the people, in order to form a more perfect union. 221 years ago, in a hall that still stands across the street, a group of men gathered and with these simple words, launched America's improbable experiment in democracy. Farmers and scholars, statesmen and patriots who had traveled across the ocean to escape tyranny and persecution finally made real their declaration of independence At a Philadelphia convention that lasted through the spring of 1787. The document they produced was eventually signed, but ultimately unfinished. It was stained by this nation's original sin of slavery, a question that divided the colonies and brought the convention to a stalemate. Until the founders chose to allow the slave trade to continue for at least 20 more years and to leave any final resolution to future generations. Of course, the answer to the slavery question was already embedded within our constitution. A constitution that had at its very core the ideal of equal citizenship under the law, A constitution that promised its people liberty and justice and a union that could be and should be perfected over time. And yet, words on a parchment would not be enough to deliver slaves from bondage or provide men and women of every color and creed their full rights and obligations as citizens of the United States. What would be needed were Americans in successive generations who were willing to do their part through protests and struggles on the streets and in the courts, through a civil war and civil disobedience and always at great risk to narrow that gap between the promise of our ideals and the reality of their time.
- [38:54]
Joe Rogan
What was the process of writing that? How much was you? How much was him there?
- [38:58]
Jon Favreau
Oh, man, that was quite a process.
- [39:00]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [39:00]
Jon Favreau
They. The Reverend Wright, the tapes come out, the controversy erupts. I believe on a Thursday or Friday.
- [39:10]
Barack Obama
The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three strike law, and then wants us to sing God Bless America. No, no, no, not God Bless America. God damn America. That's in the Bible. For killing innocent people. God damn America for treating her citizens as less than human. God damn America. As long as she tries to act like she is God and she is supreme.
- [39:40]
Jon Favreau
And they. The campaign originally decides he's gonna do a round of cable TV interviews. Those don't work and doesn't. Didn't do anything to get the controversy to go away. And Saturday morning I wake up and I. There's a senior staff call. I get on the call and Axelrod's like, all right, guys, he wants to give a speech. Like, what? He's like, he wants to give a speech about race. Okay. I was like, all right, well, so when can I meet with them? And like, is it going to be like, you know, a week from today or whatever? He's like, wants to give it Tuesday. And it's like, he wants to give it Tuesday. Like, what? Like, what am I this. That's a big speech. And he's like, like, well, can I meet with them now? Can I talk to him now? He's like, he's campaigning all day. He can't talk to you till tonight. So at like 10:30 at night, I talked to Obama on Saturday. And he was like, I'm just going to give you stream of consciousness off the top of my head what I'm thinking. He's such a lawyer, though, that even off the top of his head it was like, all right, first I want to say this. And then it's going to be 1A, 1B, 2 is going to be this, 2A, 2B. And he had like an outline. And then he talked through. He and I talked through like a story to end it with. And we settled on the story that we used, just kind of talking through it. And then I hung up with him at like almost midnight. And he's like, all right, I will need a draft of this by tomorrow night. Sunday night, right after I put the girls to bed. Cause he was in Chicago, it was St. Patrick's Day weekend. And so I immediately. I was too Freaked out to start writing. And I was like, I do need some sleep. But it was also St. Patrick's Day. So I went and had a beer with people on the campaign who were out, came back home, and then I woke up at like 5am and I went to the Starbucks near our house in Chicago in Lincoln park, and I just wrote, wrote, wrote, wrote, wrote all day. Sent it to him. He sent me something back Monday morning with just so many track changes. Just the track changes were in blue. It was just like pages and pages of blue. And then I incorporated them. I wrote more. He did another round of track changes. And then on Tuesday morning, like, at 4 in the morning, he sent the speech to me, Axelrod, Plouff, Gibbs and Valerie Jarrett. And he said, this is the speech. No one can touch it. He's like, fabs can touch it. In terms of edits, like light edits, rhythms, word stuff, I don't want any more substance. I don't want anyone freaking out about the politics. This is it. This is what I want to say.
- [42:26]
Joe Rogan
And if I can ask there, how hard was it for you at the time to maybe write about race as a white guy, knowing that, you know, your boss might tell you, no, you got it wrong?
- [42:37]
Jon Favreau
Yeah, well, part of what I did is, like, the parts of that speech that are me. A lot of the historical stuff in it, like the, like, things about race that you can know and learn if you read a lot about race, which I had, right? Like, I had a, you know, I. Sociology major, political science major at a liberal arts school. Like, I had. I read it, all right? But when he got to the personal stuff, I had to basically put in placeholders for him, you know, Like, I. Especially in a situation that the sensitivity wasn't just around race, it was around his own personal relationships with a pastor who had, like, baptized his children, you know. And so that was very. That was very tricky to deal with. But so much of speech writing is about honing the skill of empathy. And you are constantly trying to put yourself in the shoes of people whose lives are not like yours, whose identities are not like yours, whose backgrounds are not like yours, and trying to figure out, at least in politics, what is the common thread that binds us, even though we are so different, even though we've had such different experiences in life, even though I can't know what Barack Obama's life was like, even though I can't know what someone, you know, a black person's life is like or a Latino's person's life is like. Or a gay person. Like, I can't know all these things. All I can do is try to put myself in their shoes and try to tell a story that everyone can see themselves in so that actually.
- [44:13]
Joe Rogan
Okay, so that makes me then think of the Sandy Hook speech, Right. Obama said it was the hardest thing he ever had to do.
- [44:20]
Barack Obama
I know there's not a parent in America who doesn't feel the same overwhelming grief that I do. The majority of those who died today were children, beautiful little kids between the ages of 5 and 10 years old. They had their entire lives ahead of them. Birthdays, graduations, weddings, kids of their own.
- [44:59]
Joe Rogan
I guess, for you, what do you do when language in that situation has to carry something that it feels like language itself, by itself, can't actually carry?
- [45:09]
Jon Favreau
Looking back on that, and Cody Keenan, who took over for me, was really the lead writer of that speech. Not being a parent in that moment actually gave me some detachment from the emotion in a way. Like, it was horrific and tragic. But I remember when Aurora. The shooting in Aurora happened in Colorado, I was with the president. I was with Obama right before he went out on stage. And so I had to. I wrote a statement around that. And he was about to go on stage and give the speech. This is before Sandy Hook. And he. Remember, he stopped and he was like. He looked pretty upset. And I'm a kid who's very busy in the White House writing speeches, and I thought it was a tragedy, but we deal with tragedies all the time, you know. And he said to me before he went on, he was like, you're not a parent yet. He's like, but when you are, someday you will realize that being a parent is like walking around with your heart outside of your chest. Which ended up later in the Sandy Hook speech. And at the time, I. I thought it was a. Like a beautiful way to say that, a compelling way to say that. But I thought that intellectually, and now that I have kids, I think back on him telling me that, and I always. It like, chokes me up just thinking about it.
- [46:30]
Joe Rogan
I was. I was gonna ask you. I mean, I don't know. I feel like we create so much that we never wash our own things, but for something like that. As a parent, have you ever gone back?
- [46:39]
Jon Favreau
No, I haven't, actually. It's hard. I mean, I imagine, you know, as a. Yeah. As a parent now, it's like. It's just so different, Right. Because, you know, my eldest is in school, and the youngest is going to start school, and you just start Thinking about the world as it is right now, and if you get too in your head about it, you know, it's hard to keep going. And so you just. All you got to do is put your head down and enjoy the moments with them and then do the work that I'm doing, at least in my case.
- [47:11]
Joe Rogan
One of the last things I want to ask you regarding speeches is for you personally. So whether the public thought it worked or not, that doesn't matter. Is there a speech from those years that you think that was a failure?
- [47:23]
Jon Favreau
Oh, interesting. Yeah. The easiest one to pick is the. The oil spill speech.
- [47:31]
Joe Rogan
Okay, Wait, why? Why is that?
- [47:33]
Jon Favreau
So, remember the Deepwater Horizon oil spill? It was like 2010, and everyone was mad at Barack Obama because we couldn't plug the well. And all the cable channels had on the bottom of the screen 24 hours a day, the well just spewing oil into the Gulf, and he couldn't do anything about it. And every time there was an incident or a crisis in the Obama White House, someone inevitably would say, he's got to give a big speech, because he is the speech guy, right? And there was a. Like, sort of a gallows humor joke that we would make where we'd say. Because people would actually say this, not as much as we would make fun of it for, but they would say, you need a race speech for X because of the race speech that we just talked about, and because that worked so well, and it is this. It drove the speechwriters crazy. It drove Obama crazy.
- [48:29]
Joe Rogan
Use your magic wand, John.
- [48:30]
Jon Favreau
It is, yes. And it's, of course, what drove the public crazy at times about Obama, right? Which is like, this man is the hope guy, and he's supposed to fix everything, and he should be able to have the right words to fix everything. And I remember. And so someone was like, inevitably, he should give an Oval Office address addressing the oil spill. And I'm like, okay, have we fixed the oil spill? Do we know how to fix the oil spill? No. Well, then what's the speech going to be? Well, some of it's going to be about climate change and the bigger issues. And I was like, oh, fuck, this is not going to work.
- [48:58]
Barack Obama
And soon, nearly a mile beneath the surface of the ocean, oil began spewing into the water. Because there's never been a leak in this size at this depth. Stopping it has tested the limits of human technology. That's why, just after the rig sank, I assembled a team of our nation's best scientists and engineers to tackle this challenge.
- [49:21]
Jon Favreau
Sure enough, it was a weird speech. It didn't help at all. But it's something I always think about because I'm like, sometimes a speech can't fix the problem. What fixes the problem is someone going in there and fixing the well.
- [49:39]
Joe Rogan
We'll get you back to the pod
- [49:40]
in just a minute.
- [49:41]
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- [50:38]
Terms and conditions may apply. I want to get past the, the, the, the writing. I want to, I want to think of after the Obama White House. Let's. So you leave the White House at. I think you were 31 around the time. Is that right?
- [50:52]
Jon Favreau
Yeah, I think that's right. 2013. Well, yeah, whenever.
- [50:55]
Joe Rogan
And so you say you left more hopeful, but you then also immediately start a consulting firm. You're exploring Hollywood. Do you feel like you were running towards anything? Running away from anything?
- [51:06]
Jon Favreau
I felt like I was burnt out in terms of writing for. I was burnt out. Politics and writing for him. And if I had Left before the 2012 reelect, I would have felt guilty. He wins reelection and I'm like, okay, this is. I did it. And I've been with him for eight Years. It's a long time. I had just met my now wife and I have not had a normal relationship ever at this point. And so, or at least like a real, long term, serious, serious relationship. And so I was like, if I got to start my life and I can't stay in the White House and do this, and I do love writing and maybe I can write television or movies and it can, you know, can be impactful in that way, you know, because they could have sort of political themes, whether explicit or implicit. And Tommy Vitor, my co host and co founder, he was on board with that too. So Tommy and I were like, all right, we're going to write a pilot television show. And then I was like, and in the meantime, we're going to start this company and we're going to do speechwriting and Tommy can do some crisis comms. And Tommy's a great writer too, so he'll do writing. And we'll just. That'll be our firm. It'll just be the two of us, maybe one or one or two other people, and we'll get by and then someone will buy our script and then that'll be the end of it.
- [52:24]
Joe Rogan
And so. Okay, when. When you go from writing for the most powerful person on earth to building this, this media company from a kitchen table, right, the whole crooked media ecosystem, is there something that you learn along the way of like, building something from scratch that the, the White House never taught you?
- [52:42]
Jon Favreau
Yeah, I mean, the White House didn't teach me anything about like, like building a business, starting a business, hiring people, like having managing employees.
- [52:52]
Joe Rogan
Now, is it a different kind of chaos?
- [52:55]
Jon Favreau
It is a different kind of chaos. It is also a skill I just didn't have. You know, Tommy and I, because we had started the consulting firm and ended up with three or four employees, we had some experience with business. So we like that. You know, Fenway, which is our consulting firm, that helped us a little bit, but it was really just starting from scratch. And we, you know, thankfully hired a COO who was brilliant and helped build the company from scratch and a chief content officer who, the two of them together, Sarah and Tanya, just like built this company from nothing. And. But yeah, those, those first years, because you're thinking about politics, you're hosting, you're recording, but then in the other time, you're thinking about employees, business, office space, taxes, all the other that you have to think about when you're running a business. It's really hard.
- [53:47]
Joe Rogan
And also, I mean, something that was new for you too, right? So you said after Obama, we'll see how long it takes for me to find my voice again. It's been over a decade. Have you.
- [53:56]
Jon Favreau
Yeah, now I have.
- [53:58]
Joe Rogan
How long did it take?
- [53:59]
Jon Favreau
A couple years. Because I would write, I think when I was in 13 and 14, when I was doing Fenway, I would also like, I would write a column for the Daily Beast once in a while and a couple other places and then the ringer and. And I look back now at some of those and they, The. The first ones sound just so much like Obama. It's just like I'm still an Obama speechwriter, just, just writing exactly like he talks about. And I think that podcasting helped me find my voice more than if I just kept writing because the writing I would sort of naturally go back to sort of the Obama ticks.
- [54:36]
Joe Rogan
What are the Obama ticks? Is it just certain sentence length?
- [54:39]
Jon Favreau
Pauses?
- [54:40]
Joe Rogan
How does that work?
- [54:41]
Jon Favreau
It's sentence length. It's words he uses. It's the. Let me be clears. It's, you know, the. It's just very. A lot of semicolons he does. The guy's not fan of a period. He doesn't like a period. And it's just the way that speeches are written, right? Like there is sort of an edifice around political speeches that even Barack Obama, who, you know, I'd say is different than a lot of other politicians, still fell into sort of the general edifice of what a political speech sounds like. Getting out of that took some time. And then at some point though, I mean, I don't, I don't do a lot of writing now, but when I do, I try much harder to write like I speak on the pod, which is more conversationally. And that I think was the lesson that podcasting helped me learn.
- [55:28]
Joe Rogan
I'm hoping to, I'm hoping to learn that as well because I have 20 years of people are like, think that I have two different voices because on my main show I talk a mile a minute. Like I'm method out of my mind. And then this is, this is just how I speak. So I don't know, maybe I'll find it. Something that I am interested though is especially as, you know, you go from something that's behind the scenes, you're front facing. And this kind of is about POD early on, but also now you guys kind of get hit from the. The left for being too establishment in people's eyes and from the right for being like partisan advocacy in their eyes. How do you sit with. I guess taken. Taken hits from. From all Sides. Is it just part of the game to you? Yeah, just. I'd like to know your thoughts.
- [56:12]
Jon Favreau
I think it bothered me a lot in. When we first started, I think when there'd be a Twitter fight or criticism, especially from the left or from the left, but like within the Democratic Party, whether it was from the center left or the left, it would really bother me personally in, like, I'd say 17, 18. And I don't know if it's just because I've been doing it this long or I have grown as a person thanks to therapy. I don't know what it is, or maybe I'm just numb at this point. But now it only like when I respond or when it bugs me. And people probably won't believe this, but it's. But it's true. I only get annoyed in terms of, like, I'm always thinking about persuading other people. And so if there's an argument about there. If there's an argument out there and it includes me, but it's an argument about something bigger, I will hit back because I want to engage in the argument because I want other people to believe what I believe. When I get personal insults now, I don't care because I'm like, there's. What am I gonna. I'm not winning this fight. And I can throw a personal insult back. And sometimes if it's like a right wing person, I will just for fun, but that's not. That's not a good use of my time. But if someone is criticizing me or the show or anything else for a position we've taken or a candidate that I believe in, then I will try to make my case. But I won't get as. I won't get as angry or as personally upset or offended as I did, like, you know, seven or eight years ago.
- [57:50]
Joe Rogan
It was something that popped into my mind because I saw several different reactions to you recently talking with Platner.
- [57:58]
Jon Favreau
Yeah, right.
- [57:59]
Joe Rogan
So it was like there were some. There were some people that were like, can't believe this. They. They platformed this guy. And then, oh, I love that they platform this guy. And then there was the. The clip around that. That was making the rounds of talking about the. The bailout and that even. That was wild. Like, see.
- [58:15]
Jon Favreau
Oh, I didn't even. I figured that would go around. I didn't. I didn't know that that's been going
- [58:18]
Joe Rogan
around, but it's probably helpful, I kind of assume. Not like searching yourself, but it's. And then there's like, people that are like, oh, this is like a really thoughtful, interesting conversation. And then there's other, you know, you always see the different captions on the same video clip that can be drastically different. And another one's like, platinum Destroy Favreau. And I'm like, how are there all these different takes? It was so, it was so interesting. And so I just, I was like, I had to ask, do you. But do you, in your day to day life, do you just. Do you not look at social stuff outside of maybe, like, if a friend sends you something because it's just too much to consume? Are you in there? Are you in the trenches?
- [58:54]
Jon Favreau
I'm not in the trenches as much as I used to be. My friends and colleagues here might disagree, but I'm not. What's interesting is how I prepare for a conversation like that and how that has changed and how the outside noise could impact that. So, for example, with Platner, I'm like, okay, he's coming in. Tommy interviewed him in October. That's when the, the, the Nazi tattoo was revealed. And, you know, and, and look, I think Tommy also brought Tommy called like, the other campaign, like, his, his potential opponents to like, basically get their opposition research on Platner and asked him about all the Reddit posts and everything else.
- [59:38]
Joe Rogan
So.
- [59:38]
Jon Favreau
And then everyone was like, oh, it was an easy interview on Pod, Save America, whatever else, fine. So then Platter comes in and I'm like, okay, I have a couple of things to think about. Do I need to. Obviously I'm going to ask him about the tattoo again, but, like, why am I going to keep pressing on the tattoo issue and keep going, Follow up, follow up when I personally have all the answers, when I have seen and heard all of the answers he's given in other interviews about it. So am I just doing this to protect myself from criticism online? Because if so, why am I doing that? Who the fuck cares? Like, that's a waste of the audience's time because that's covering my ass. And it's like, I know what the answers is that he's given. I personally believe them. And so I should try to ask him about other stuff while I have him here for an hour. And then the other thing I thought about is I got. Because I had heard him talk about. He was doing a podcast with David Remnick a couple months ago, and he talked about Obama and the bankers and stuff like that. And I was like, oh, this would be a fascinating conversation to have with them. And I fully realized before I had it, I was like, if I Do this, I will come off as the neolib Obama shill that's defending the banks. But I really want to know what Graham thinks and I want to go back and forth on this and just see what kind of conversation we have. And it's like, if someone criticizes me for it, I don't care. I know how I feel about that. And I think the value, the benefit from that conversation could be some people who may not post may have learned something different than they didn't know before, either from me or from Graham.
- [61:11]
Joe Rogan
Like, you know, and you said from, like, whether it be your podcasting, your writing, a lot of, you know, what you do is meant to kind of sway opinion, change minds, or kind of like open eyes. This one's kind of a, you know, you've been one of the most, one of the more prominent voices in Democratic messaging for almost 20 years. You know, the party loss in 2024, they lost the working class voters at historic rates. Like we, you know, obviously this group that you've been thinking about for 20 plus years for you personally, and it's not me putting it on you, for you personally, in your, your own head, what responsibility are you taking for like the failure of Democratic communication? Yeah, like, do you, do you, do you put that on yourself or just because, like, you're so in the game and this is your life, or you see it as something separate.
- [61:58]
Jon Favreau
I'm hard on myself if I think I have held something back for fear of blowback or to not piss people off. As I said, I don't, I don't love conflict. And so if, if it's anything, it's like, oh, I should have said this earlier. I should have said it louder. And I have tried after 2016, 2024, all the rest of the, to just be more humble and have some humility in my opinions. And I realize that some people could take that as like wishy washy. But like, for example, I said a couple weeks before the Texas Senate primary that I thought that I think Talarico has a better chance to win. And I have always admired him. And, you know, it wasn't like a, hey, everyone, go vote Talarico. I am firmly, you know, sure. And there's some, you know, I had tweeted something and some people were like, well, why, why hasn't the pod said anything? Jasmine Crockett would lose. And we can tell you guys like Talarico and why aren't you coming down stronger for Talarico? Why wasn't it a more full throated Endorsement and why are you so scared? And it's like, look, in that situation, I want to have the humility to think that, to say, I do believe that telo is the better bet. But I don't know for sure. I can't. I can't get in the minds of Texas voters. I don't know. I'm not. Like, I have experience. That does not make me an infallible expert. Clearly, if we look at the last several years. So I'm going to give you my best guess in my best analysis based on the experience I have, the data I've seen, and then I'm gonna let you make a decision for yourself, knowing that, like, I am not completely certain in the outcome. Which is why, you know, we always say, like, we're out of the prediction business, and we've said that since 2016. And obviously, you can't be completely out of predicting anything in this. In this business, because people are asking you what they think is gonna happen or what the best bet is. But I do think all of Democratic politics, politics in general, would be a lot better if we all had a dose of humility about our pronunciations, about our pronounces, about what. What the messaging should be or what the strategy should be.
- [64:18]
Joe Rogan
No, that's really. That's really thoughtful to me. Or to me, because it does feel like having that balance between not being scared to become the news as someone that covers it, but also that not being the main goal, which I think is where we see, unfortunately, a lot of people who have kind of entered the space for bad reasons in the last. I mean, it's more for. But four to eight years, I'd say.
- [64:42]
Jon Favreau
Yeah, it was, you know, certainty gets more attention. You know, like, if you can tell people this is going to happen or this is absolutely. We are going to lose if this doesn't happen. But, like, that's going to capture more attention and it's probably going to do better. But, like, I don't know, you know, I'm just. I'm just here to try to help. No, I'm going to try to do the best I can. Yeah.
- [65:03]
Joe Rogan
No, I mean, I don't know. Talking about it, it makes me think of communication style. And then obviously, you know, I have to think of, like, Trump's communication style. It feels like it's. Is it. Is it. Would you say it's the opposite of everything that you believe in? Not, like the things he stands for, but his communication style? It's.
- [65:17]
Jon Favreau
Right.
- [65:17]
Joe Rogan
It's not nuanced. It's not like coalition building. It's not storytelling. It's a hammer to the face.
- [65:24]
Jon Favreau
And everything he's run, everything is binary, black and white.
- [65:28]
Joe Rogan
But every time he's run, it's been more effective than what the Democrats have done.
- [65:31]
Jon Favreau
You'll never take back our country with weakness.
- [65:35]
Barack Obama
You have to show strength and you have to be strong.
- [65:39]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, like, what do you make of that?
- [65:42]
Jon Favreau
What I make of that is. It is true. The. I don't think the answer is, then we have to mimic that, because I think if we mimic that and people have Trump and a. A poor imitation of Trump trying to be Trump, they're going to go with the real thing. And I also think that communication style, at least for us, for Democrats, has to flow from your beliefs about politics. And if our belief about politics is that democratic governance is the best form of government, and that that gives people the best chance to live happy, fulfilling lives, that kind of government requires an ability to grasp nuance and complexity and to care about people who we don't know and who aren't like us, and to be honest, to the best of our ability. And there are a lot of ways that can go south and. But our job is to make that successful and to. And to win without losing those principles. Because if we lose those principles, it's not just a moral tragedy. I don't think it is. I don't think it is politically viable because I think that imitating Trump is empty calories. It, like, it might get people thrilled for a little bit. Oh, he punched him back. That's great. Wonderful. Fine. But, like, if there's nothing behind it, if there's nothing underlying, if there's not, like, a deeper vision, a broader vision of, like, what you want for the country and where you want to take the country, people are gonna under. People are gonna see through that. They're just gonna see through it.
- [67:26]
Joe Rogan
So do you think, like, what Newsom's doing, is it that more or it's just the mimicry?
- [67:30]
Jon Favreau
It. It's funny because I. Tommy and I interviewed Newsom last night on his book tour, and I can already see him, you know, at one point, he's talking about his social media and punching back, and Democrats need to fight. And then he was saying towards the end of the interview, he was like. But at some point, he's like, we gotta draw lines, but we also gotta draw a circle, and we gotta bring people back together, and we can't just be in total. And I could see that. I could see in his mind the tension where he knows. And this is what I think this is. Back to your first question about Talarico and Crockett. I think this is what Talarico sees. I think this is what Obama sees. Like, I realize that Democrats right now are like, we need to punch them in the face. We need a fighter. And anyone who doesn't say that is just like the whole Michelle Obama. You know, when they go. When they go low, we go high. When they go low, we go high. It is like the easiest line to trash in the Democratic Party right now and has been for several years. It's just so easy to trash. And, like, my belief is not that it's about us being nice. Right. Like, I don't think we just need to be nice all the time and just be shrinking violets and turn the other cheek and all that kind of shit. I think that we need to know what we are for, where we want to take the country, how we want to get us there, and then speak forcefully and passionately about that and argue for that position fiercely. But, like, you can't. You can't start from, well, now we're just going to throw haymakers and we'll figure out the rest later.
- [69:03]
Joe Rogan
Right?
- [69:03]
Jon Favreau
Which is where we. Which is, you know, which is where I think a lot of politicians are.
- [69:07]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. The Newsom. I squint a lot because he just seems like three different people. He's his media person online, and then when he speaks, depending on if he's talking to a Republican or not, drastically different person, whether it be more accommodating or more aggressive, but kind of. I want to get down to the last two questions here.
- [69:28]
Jon Favreau
Right.
- [69:29]
Joe Rogan
We're sitting in March of 2026. There's a war in Iran that Congress didn't vote on. Feels just like more and more chaotic by the day. We don't know where things are going to go. And y'.
- [69:40]
All.
- [69:40]
I mean, you built, I feel like crooked media to a certain degree to give people a place to feel like, you know, the stakes are real. With also without those people hopefully collapsing into nihilism. Do you feel like that's still possible? Is it actually more possible? Like, do you feel like the energy rising as we get closer to the midterms?
- [69:58]
Jon Favreau
I do. I feel. I feel the energy rising. I do think it. I have to think it's possible. I think I am incapable of sort of giving up hope. And I don't know if that is just who I am, if it's the person I worked for for all those years, if I'M just naive and just. Just like, banging my head against a wall. But I think that there are two. I really do believe there are two options, which is to give up or to keep fighting. And I think that giving up ensures the worst outcome, and I think that fighting at least gives us a chance. And I have seen enough in my own life in. In politics throughout history, where, you know, dark, dark periods turn into something better because people are out there and putting themselves on the line and organizing and working in all kinds of different ways, and some are riskier than others, but everyone's sort of doing their part, and it doesn't happen all at once. Sometimes. I mean, you know, civil rights movement took decades, and I think about that, and I'm like, do I want to spend my days this way, or do I want to do something else in order to turn away from what is clearly an awful, upsetting situation every single day? And while sometimes turning away seems tempting, I. Maybe it's the Catholic guilt, you know, Like, I just feel like I don't want to. Like, maybe that would be nice for me. Maybe I could turn away and be fine, and then I'll. Like, my mental health will be better. Probably it won't be because I'm an addict, a political addict, but, like, I can't do that. And so I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna keep doing this with the time that I have.
- [71:48]
Joe Rogan
And so, okay, that perfectly ties into what I wanted to ask for the last question, which was, after everything, right, going through Kerry, Obama, the White House, Sandy Hook, Trump, building a company getting hit in 2024 with the return of Trump, like, do you still believe that the right words said in the right way can actually change things? Or is that a belief that's been tweaked or altered?
- [72:10]
Jon Favreau
Oh, I. A thousand percent believe that. I think whether it is. It may not be the. The. The types of speeches that I used to write for Obama that does that, but the way that people change their minds is through conversations. That is the way that we talk. We change each other's minds, whether it's about politics or whether it's an argument with your friend or someone in your family, right? Like, words, the words that we choose, the conversations that we have, is what persuade someone else. And our ability to be persuaded to change our minds is what makes us human. And it is what has been like, the fulcrum of human progress since the beginning of time. And so I have to believe that figuring out the right words and going back and forth with people because it's not a one way street either to have a conversation with people and try to like, reach some common agreement. I have to believe that's possible.
- [73:05]
Joe Rogan
John, thank you so much for. For sharing yours with me today.
- [73:08]
Jon Favreau
Thank you. This was a really great conversation. I appreciate it. It's nice to get asked some questions.
- [73:12]
Joe Rogan
A little therapy.
- [73:13]
Jon Favreau
Yeah, exactly.