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- [00:01]
Scott Galloway
It's okay not to be perfect with finances. Experian is your big financial friend and here to help. Did you know you can get matched.
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Phil
With credit cards on the app?
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Scott Galloway
Some cards are labeled no Ding Decline, which means if you're not approved, they won't hurt your credit scores. Download the Experian app for free today. Applying for no Ding Decline cards won't hurt your credit scores. If you aren't initially approved, initial approval will result in a hard inquiry which.
- [00:26]
Phil
May impact your credit scores.
- [00:28]
Scott Galloway
Experian.
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Phil
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Scott Galloway
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Phil
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Scott Galloway
Our jewelry experts are here to help you find or create the perfect gift in store or online. Book your appointment today and unwrap love.
- [00:43]
Phil
This season only at Kay hey, welcome back to the In Good Faith podcast, where every week I'm talking to people I think are the most important or influential people in the world. And this week my guest is Scott Galloway. He's an academic, an author, an entrepreneur, and a podcast mogul with really so many podcasts that it's kind of hard to keep track of. And he also has a new book out called Notes on Being a Man, a book that he hopes will help young men and also claw them back from vice culture. Extreme right wing stuff that we've seen recently and just generally help them be productive members of society. And today we talked about the core tenets of being a book, the controversies around that, raising our kids, but also being a man, a husband, a father and a friend. And hey, in addition to subscribing to this podcast, if you enjoy this episode, give it five stars on Spotify and Apple or give it a like on YouTube. And I also like the conversation to go past me and whoever's speaking. So leave a comment on what you agreed with, disagreed with, or who you'd like to see next as a guest. So Scott, I, I love that you wrote about a thing that I didn't realize was so polarizing. It felt a little bit like you hit the hornet's nest, but not in one specific area. You just released your book Notes on Being a Man, and a lot of people agree with it. A lot of people loving you, sharing your stories, your mistakes and what you've learned from it and what you'd like to see moving forward. But also it feels like you've been taking shots from left and right. Right. I go on one portion of the Internet and people are like, oh, Scott is actually a misogynist. He's the centrist Andrew Tate. And then I Go to another portion and you're getting hit from the other side where Scott's actually not talking about masculinity. He's talking about this like limp wristed idea of being a man to sell books to woke soy boys. And I feel like part of this is connected to kind of the clip, clip nature of the way we get information and not being able to control the context it's being delivered in. But also I think it's connected to a thing that you've talked about on one of your Monday Friday shows where it's like, if you're going to do this job and you're going to grow, a big part of the strategy is you say that big first thing that could be kind of seen as maybe crudely saying a point and then you follow up with more. And I think in anticipation of this, this chat, when I was talking to people, giving them kind of like the 32nd pitch of Scott Galloway and this book is like, Scott says that toxic masculinity is not a thing. And so that instantly, right. They kind of open their eyes wide and it's either, oh, is he one of those guys? Or you have some people that are like, yeah, it's right, because it's just being a man. And it's like, oh, that's. That doesn't seem to be the point that he's, he's pushing. It's that kind of what we've seen the idea of masculinity be in the last kind of month or not month, sorry, the last kind of election cycle or two has been right wingers saying, hey, you've been wronged, let's be cruel and you're kind and it's kind of this pushing of victimhood and you're saying, no, that's not even masculinity. That's not a version of masculinity. It's actually more about masculinity's protection and providing. And so I wanted to ask, like, do you find that, that kind of like summary of what you've been seeing to be accurate? And then secondly, the right wing nature of kind of the trying to bring in young men and what we saw in the election, is that why you decided to write this book?
- [04:10]
Scott Galloway
First off, Phil, it's great to be with you. Yeah, it's from the far right. I'm a libtard from the far left. I'm a misogynist, so. And I find that on a lot of issues there's sort of a horseshoe effect, whether it's antisemitism or anti vaccination. The far left and the far right meet on a lot of things actually, and they're more similar than people believe. It's usually very rooted in identity. There's a feeling of, you know, the other side is a threat. And I'm not, I'm not in any way putting my content in the same realm as those. But most of my harshest critics are what I call from the far left or the far right. And what I've come to grips with is that if you don't have pushback, I mean, one, first off, I get it wrong a lot. And I'm writing about stuff and I'm trying to be. I'm trying to advance the dialogue. I'm trying to color outside the line sometimes. And the bottom line is I just get it wrong sometimes. And some of the feedback I get, the stuff that really hurts, Phyllis, is stuff that you know is right that's accurate. When people write something, you're like, ah, they got it right, I wrong. But I feel as if you don't get some feedback or some pushback, you're not saying anything. And what I've tried to do is I try to write as if my. I want my kids to read it in 20 years and understand the world we live in and maybe understand me a little bit better, but to be fearless and just assume no one else is going to write it. Because I found especially earlier in my career, the algorithms and the likes were sort of shaping my narrative and that I was. And I think this is one of the uncomfortable things or unfortunate things about society is it's just so powerful. If you say something and it gets 3,000 likes, you know, the majority of stuff gets seven thumbs up, seven thumbs up. And then it gets something gets 3,000 likes and then you say something and you get ratioed by people who press on soft tissue. You said something in artful and they come in and start calling you things that you just really upset you because you aspired not to be those things. So unfortunately, I think you are where you spend time. And the algorithms have a vested interest in a connection to profit and saying things that are somewhat incendiary and elevating content that you say that might be incendiary. And then you start. We all start barking up the same tree. And that is because I'm a progressive. The algorithms immediately pick up on it, start serving me content that takes me further and further left. You get more likes. The kind of. I don't say, the crazier you get, the more extreme you get based on who's following you. And then it'll serve you content. That inflames you, inflames your sensibilities, because it makes the other side look stupid. And the result is, I don't actually think Americans are that divided. What I think is we have the most profitable, deep pocketed companies in the world trying to divide us. And I don't want to say I'm immune from it. I still get upset when I get really harsh, negative feedback. But I've gotten better at it. And the people I admire, the role models I remember admire, whether it's Muhammad Ali or Margaret Thatcher, can you imagine the feedback they would have gotten online when they refused to go to Vietnam or when she tried to break the coal miners because she thought it was bad for the British economy? So I try to one of my role models, a guy named Sam Harris, and he says if you have economic security and people who love you unconditionally, you have an obligation to speak your mind. So I try to be very honest about how I feel and where I think the data leads me, regardless of, you know, what I call constant land acknowledgments from the far left and just a general sense that, for example, you reference masculinity. The far right was the first to really, to their credit, to really notice that young men were struggling. But their solution is to take women and non whites back to the 50s and they hold women's ascent somewhat responsible for men's, young men's descent, which I just don't think is accurate. And then the far left believes that, okay, young men don't have problems, they are the problem. And their answer solution is if you just acted more like a woman. And I don't think that's, I don't think that's helpful either. But as to why I wrote the book, I think young men need a code. I think everybody needs a code. You can get your code from religion, you can get your code from the military, from your family. I think the first time I had a real code was at my first job. Morgan Stanley had a very strong culture and a kind of a code around how you treat, how you presented and quitted yourself and how you treat other people. But a lot of young men are struggling for a code. They're not connecting to church, they're not connecting to school, they're not connecting to other relationships. And I think masculinity in a, you know, position in an aspirational light can serve as a code because I do think young men have an easier time leaning into certain masculine attributes than people born as women. And even just saying that triggers a lot of people. But I, I wrote it because when I relate to these people or young men, I didn't have a lot of economic or romantic opportunities as a young man. And I think the data is really, is really stark. And I think that masculinity can serve as a code for a young man.
- [09:11]
Phil
When, I mean, hearing you talk about it, there are two things that come to mind. The first one is it does seem like you are someone that is still trying to, to figure out and navigate the situation. I mean, one thing you talked about with the left was the idea of like land acknowledgement, prefacing things before talking about issues somewhere else. I know that that was something that you talked about at the beginning of your podcast with. I think it was modern wisdom where you even seem to kind of push back on, you know, having to preface something of I want to talk about men. But there are also these other issues and it seemed like you kind of understood to a certain degree or like not understood, but you felt like it is necessary to a certain degree to go like. I'm not blindly just seeing this as one thing. I'm not centrist. Andrew Tate. Is that accurate?
- [09:58]
Scott Galloway
Yeah, I'm self conscious because my posse is progressives. Progressives control the majority. Or there's just no doubt about it. There's a progressive leaning in the media. You don't want to be. I mean, I'm sensitive to the fact I don't want to be seen as Andrew Tate with an mba. And unfortunately, because people were on the left were somewhat remiss to even acknowledge the problem, the right did. But unfortunately, the void was filled by some really negative voices. And that is the quote unquote, manosphere. It starts out fine. Be action oriented, be fit, take responsibility for your life. And that's the dangerous part is it actually starts out pretty good. I bet 70, 80% of it I would agree with. And then it turns really ugly. You know, the woman's role is to support you. Don't let that, don't let that, you know, B word head to the club on her own. She's there to support you. It just, it goes really ugly, really fast. Start, maybe even begin to demonize immigrants for your own economic troubles. I mean, that's when I know a young man's really come off the tracks is he blames women for his romantic problems and immigrants for his economic troubles. So there's an understandable gag reflex when they See someone, quite frankly, when they see an old white guy talking about struggling young men, I understand why they immediately go, oh, and their antennae just go crazy. So I do feel as if I need to soften the beach and say things like, and I believe this, that women still face real issues in this country. They go to 77 cents on the dollar when they have kids. Non whites still face real issues. The average household wealth of a Latino or a Black family is 22, 23,000. Average household wealth of a white family is 160,000. I mean, there's still, you could argue, some sort of an economic apartheid in the US but we can walk and chew gum at the same time and also recognize that these groups still face formidable challenges. But if you look at just the data around suicide, work income, college attendance, there is no group that has fallen further faster than young men. And that doesn't mean we can't. You know, empathy is not a zero sum game. Civil rights didn't hurt white people. Gay marriage didn't hurt heteronormative marriage. And recognizing the real challenges that young men face doesn't set other groups back. And also the reality is I got a 3,000 year head start. You're younger than me. But being born a white heterosexual male in the 60s meant I was kind of born on third base and I personally wasn't. I grew up in a single parent home. You know, my mother, raised by a single immigrant mother lived and died as secretary. But the reality is being born in the 60s, you know, my identity, if you will, gave me access to free education, came of age during the Internet. About 33% of the world's economic growth from 1945 to 2000 was registered by America with 5% of its population. So we had six times the prosperity of the rest of the world. And then you take that extraordinary prosperity and you cram it into one third of the population that's white, male and heterosexual. I just had massive advantage. The issue now though is that young men are paying for the price of my unearned advantage and they're being held responsible. So I get that people look at me and say, Scott, whatever problems you face, you know, welcome, welcome to my life for the last few thousand years. And that you have extraordinary advantages still. I get it. But young men do not. I would argue young men are actually at a disadvantage right now. Educationally, not, maybe not professionally, but romantically, they're at a disadvantage because their research shows they actually need relationships more than women. And young people just aren't connecting one in Three men have a relationship who are under the age of 30. It's two in three women. And you think, well, that's mathematically impossible. It's not because women are dating older, because they want more economically and emotionally viable men. So I understand the gag reflex. It's, it's, it's just part of the game. I'd like to say I'm fearless and it rolls right off of me. It doesn't. It does get to me. It bothers me. But also I get tremendous. And I'm sure you do. It's exceptionally rewarding the, the positive feedback you get. And my biggest fans are young men, but my biggest supporters are actually mothers who see what's going on. And the story goes something like this. I got three kids, two daughters, one son, one daughter's in PR in Chicago, one's at Penn, and my son's in the basement playing video games and vaping. And they'll say, I consider myself a feminist, but there's definitely something going on here. And anyone who has kids, especially boys and girls, realizes there is a stark difference between the performance of young men and teen boys relative to their female peers. So, you know, I don't mind some negative feedback. Means you're, means you're saying something. I'm not going to lie to you, Phil. Some of it does get to me.
- [14:42]
Phil
Well, I mean, so on that, I mean, you said some of the things that get to you the most that hit you the most are the criticisms that you find to be most true. From the release of this book, what have you found to be the most true or most impactful on you as.
- [14:56]
Scott Galloway
Far as the next most accurate criticisms?
- [14:58]
Phil
Well, I mean, because it's what you said, right?
- [15:01]
Scott Galloway
Yeah. Well, a lot of it is the attributes of masculinity that I outlined that these aren't attributes of masculinity, they're attributes of just being a good human. And why wouldn't these apply for women? I think there's some truth in that. Probably the most accurate one though, because it hit the hardest and hurt the most, was Scott's basically telling people or telling men that if they just make a lot of money, everything will fall into place and that everything's about being a baller economically. And then you'll get the girl and get the respect and get the self worth. And I think that that hit hard because I don't know about you, I didn't grow up with money. And it was a real issue for me and my mom. You know, my dad wasn't around And I think, sure, that that didn't help. But the thing that really caused us stress, or me stress, was I could sense the anxiety and stress in our life because we didn't have money. You know, there was always what I call these sort of conversations or moments. We, you know, my Little league team wins and my mom kind of sequesters me and shuffles me into the car because we're all going to Farrell's or something and she doesn't want to spend the money on it. I have to. I don't get to go to the same driving school as everybody else. We find a cheaper one that shows up with, you know, a bad Opal Manta. We just always had these little conversations. And I think people who don't, who do grow up with some money, they can sympathize with people who don't, but they can't really empathize. I felt as if looking back on it, there was a ghost following me and my mom around, just constantly whispering at key moments, you're not worthy. You and your mom screwed up because there's constant reminders when you don't have money that you're failing in a capitalist society. When my mom got very sick, it was very humiliating for me because it's her only offspring and as someone who was coming into his adult years and some of those protective instincts were kicking in, it was very difficult, very stressful for us, being kind of underinsured, and she got very, very sick. So I'm traumatized, if you will, by a lack of money. And I've always been very focused on it. When I was a younger man, I didn't want to be a better person. I didn't want to save the whales. I didn't want to find something I was passionate about. I wanted economic security, which, again, is a politically correct way of saying I just wanted to make a lot of money was really important to me. And to be blunt, it helped a lot. It's been getting economic security has provided me with a level of comfort and opportunities and self worth and self esteem that has been really important to me. And it's probably a character flaw. And so I think it's important to acknowledge that a lot of people decide they don't want to live to work, they want to work to live, and they live, move to a lower cost neighborhood, they have a good partner, really into their church, really into their little League, and do just fine and have really happy lives and aren't obsessed with becoming millionaires. I get it. I think some of the Proximity bias. I'm around so many ambitious people and I teach at a business school. But what I find is a lot of people a don't have a sober conversation with themselves about the lifestyle they expect and what's the sacrifice required. And two, I just believe that men are disproportionately evaluated by society and by themselves based on their economic viability. And I think that, you know, kind of the first leg of the stool masculinity that I outline is to be a provider. And that is at the outside assume at some point you're going to need to take economic responsibility for your household. And by the way, sometimes that means getting out of the way and being more supportive of your partner who might be better at that money thing than you, but you are going to be disproportionately evaluated in a capitalist society based on your economic viability. Men can almost get away with almost anything. And I'm not saying this is the way the world should be, but the way the world is. Men can get away with being boring, non cultured, not very nice. But if they're a baller professionally and economically, people find them interesting and they will have a broader selection set of mates than they deserve and they will have access to public policy. And then if you don't, if you're not economically viable, not only are other people going to judge you and be critical of you, but you're going to be judgmental and critical of yourself, most likely. So I still hold to the notion that being a provider is a key component of masculinity. But the criticism hit because I do think I'm probably, I probably see the correlation between money and happiness as being tighter than it is.
- [19:19]
Phil
Well, I mean, both from podcasts and your book, it does sound like I very much related to a number of things regarding your relationship with money and insecurity. Right. I also had a sick dad growing up and seeing what we weren't able to do, the struggles we went through from not having money definitely shaped my mindset. Also, the way he raised me was very like money moves everything. So that's the first thing you have to focus on. You talked about even when one of your sons was being born, having this immense feeling of guilt of where your priorities were, of I'm working, working, working, not necessarily able to focus on the family and the relationships. That's, I don't know, I very much connected to that. And so I was wondering what was there, Was there a thing that, that helped you, help knock you out of that? And I Mean, unfortunately, is it also easier because you did do the work and you did have that money?
- [20:20]
Scott Galloway
Yeah. So, I mean, the book is meant to be. Not like I'm an endocrinologist or an adolescent psychiatrist. And this is what, manhood or masculine. It's. It's really. It's very autobiographical. And most of the lessons in there are where I screwed up or moments that have real pain, if you will. And one of the biggest moments of pain for me was I've always made a lot of money. I. I came up with wins in my sales also. I'm not humble. I think I'm a monster. I'm really talented and work very hard. But one thing you realize as you get older is a lot of your success and your failure is not your fault. Market dynamics will trump individual performance every time. But I was always so aggressive and almost doubling down on my companies because I've been raised in this era, this professional era of real men double down. And they not only take a company public, but then they borrow money against it and buy more stock. And you don't need to take any money off the table because if you're a real man and you're throwing yourself at this thing, there was a. I'm in San Francisco. There's a gestalt here that your board would say, you know, never sell any stock, because that would send the wrong signal, and they have a vested interest in you never selling anything. And so I bought into that. And when the economy hit speed bumps or a wall, as it did in 2000 with the dot com implosion, or again in 2008, in 1999, I was looking at jets and I was, you know, 33. And by 2001, I was. Had a negative net worth, crawled my way back. 2007, wham, the great financial recession hits. I'm not diversified again, way too concentrated in tech stocks, and I go pretty much to zero again. And then my oldest son had the poor judgment to come, you know, marching into this world. And I remember the first feeling, you know, you're supposed to see bright lights and angels singing. I had to sit down. I was so nauseous. And it wasn't because of the experience. It was because I just felt so much. I felt a new. A wave of A shame and anxiety that I'd never felt before came washing over me. And that was. Granted, it was a bad week for me. It was just, you know, layman had filed for bankruptcy and everything. I went from, okay, I'm economically secure to, oh, gosh, I'M economically very insecure all of a sudden. And that had always bounced somewhat off of me because I could always take care of myself. I could always find good work, make good money and start rebuilding. But when you see this thing and you realize, and I think healthy protective instincts kick in, that, okay, my partner isn't going to be able to work for a while, and I'm not only. I didn't just fail for me, and I struggle with anger and depression, so I have a tendency to see things a little darker, maybe than they should be. But I looked at this thing like I'm not only failing for me right now, I'm failing for this kid. And, you know, quite frankly, shit just got real for me because it's no longer just about me. When I fail economically and professionally, I'm failing for everybody. And it just. It just really scared the heck out of me. And I felt so nauseous and so. Ashamed is the wrong word, but just worried that I wasn't going to be able to provide for this kid at the level I expected for. For him and for me. And so my kid's birth wasn't what I call a Hallmark Channel moment. And I got very serious about getting economic security again. And it came at a real cost. I don't remember seeing my kids much when they were babies, and I don't. There's this myth of balance that you can have it all. And the reality is you can have it all. You just can't have it all at once. And now I have extraordinary balance. I'm here in San Francisco. I'm already planning World cup here. I take a ton of time with my boys. I take a ton of. We take amazing trips. But a lot of that is because I had no balance when they were kids because I was working so hard. And I don't know anyone that is really influential or successful that wasn't smart enough to be born into money that didn't spend a good 10 or 20 years kind of work doing nothing but working, or that was their priority. And it came at a real cost. I remember coming home when they were really little. I'd be on the road for two weeks. I was doing a lot of business in Europe, and I would physically notice as they were sitting there sleeping, that they had grown. Like I could register that they'd grown. I remember thinking, you know, what am I doing? Like, what's the point if I don't. If I'm not around to see my kids grow up, what's the point of all of this? So once I got to a certain level of economic security, I did try to. I did try to prioritize family. And I just. And essentially, I don't know how you feel about this, but the pace of time accelerates so dramatically as you get older and you feel like, oh, my gosh, this is slipping through my hands. My kids are going to be out of the house, and I won't have spent that much time with them. So around kind of when they were kind of 6, 7, and 8, I really tried to make an effort and slow down, but it wasn't just time with them, it was presence. I have a difficult time being in the moment. I'm constantly thinking about business. I'm constantly thinking about money. You know, I think it's important to register your addictions. And what is an addiction? Something you continue to engage in despite it being harmful to other parts of your life. I am. To the earlier part of this podcast. I'm addicted to other people's affirmation or strangers affirmation. I get bummed out by what some stranger says about me, and it takes me out of my head and I'm not as present with the people who I love and love me. That's. That's an addiction. That's stupid. I'm getting better at that. I'm also addicted to money. I have enough. I'm gonna be fine. I got very lucky. I'm good. But I still check my stocks 12 times a day. I'm still thinking about it. I'm just. Got it. I just got. Someone's planning to pay my full speaking gig in Jackson Hole. Going London, Jackson Hole, which, by the way, is not an easy. It's not like, you know, it's not like taking the tube or the subway, you know, the six line, midtown. Because I just can't turn away that money, even though I don't really need it now. And this is a story of privilege, but I find that I'm taking taken out of my head and I'm not present as much as I should be. So. Yeah, but the thing that got me really focused on allocating as much human capital to my kids was a recognition. They're going to be gone soon. They're out. And my oldest is already applying to college. We sent him to boarding school, or he wanted to go to boarding school a few years ago. And I was sold a bag of goods that he'd be home all weekend. And he's not. He's home for 24 hours, and I find myself just following him around the House, you know, he'll say to me, he'll be like, dad, stop following me. Um, so yeah, it's, it's, it's time. It's a recognition of the finite nature of life and time. But I don't, you know, I, I jokingly say, Phil, that working so hard cost me my first marriage my hair and it was worth it. And that's a terrible thing to say, but you know, in a capitalist society, economic security is just so important. And if you look at divorce rates, the number one cause of divorce, when quite frankly a man, a man is most likely to engage in self harm is the first year after divorce. The primary cause of divorce isn't infidelity or lack of shared values, it's economic strain. And when the woman starts making, and the relationship starts making more money than the man, their likelihood of divorce doubles. Use of erectile dysfunction, drugs, triples. There's just no getting around it. Distinctive what the Atlantic or the New York Times will tell you when a man isn't economically viable or as economically viable as his wife, which is now 17% of households. There's some externalities here. There's still some social dogma and real harsh judgment and I was fearful of that.
- [27:54]
Phil
So I think specifically around, I want to go focus on the kids because this is something I struggle with, with work, life balance and our situations are similar. But also there's a lot of distance. Would you, where you are now and having made the realization, you know, when they were that 5 to 8, 8, 5 to 8 range, would you have changed anything on being more there? Was it, do you, do you kind of look back and go that swap of time and experience was worth it or it wasn't, but I'm going to try and make up for it because it feels like, right, we trade our time for money and then as we get older we trade our money for more time. And I guess in this instance it, it makes it more viable to, you know, do Scot free August and things like that and focus on you and then focus on family.
- [28:41]
Scott Galloway
Yeah, the problem is, I mean if, if I knew what I know now, if I knew I was going to have this level of economic security, I would have taken more time. When they were really young, I just would have, I just wouldn't have done a lot of those two week business trips where I was, you know, nine cities in 14 days and you know, I was trying to build a business and services business and I had clients ranging from Samsung and Audi, which is, does not make an easy commute so. But I didn't know. I didn't know I was gonna have that. I was gonna get lucky and the timing was gonna be great and I was gonna end up. So, yeah, if I could take 70% of my wealth now and have another 5 years with my kids from kind of cock 0 to 2 for me was awful. I think babies are wildly overrated, but kind of two to seven, if I could have that again, I would give up a substantial share of my net worth. But you don't get to, you don't know at that moment. You don't, you know, you don't. The world doesn't work that way. So. But yeah, I would, you know, there's, I mean, the bottom line is the advice would have. Are these moments of connection you have are so random that I would, I would say that the key is what I call or what Ryan Holiday, who's another role model of mine. You know, it's weird having a role model is 25 years younger than you is. I love his term garbage time. That the biggest gift and the best strategy is garbage time. And that is. I tried to take that to heart any chance I could to drive them somewhere because I find that they're much more inclined to open up and talk to you when they're not looking at you and they're just looking ahead and there's no pressure to talk. And these moments, I went out with my son, I took my son, my 18 year old. I would kill for him to open up to me and ask me for advice. I can't meet a young man and he didn't start asking me for advice. Except my boys are not interested in my advice and I would kill to have them open up and ask for advice. And we're just out in a restaurant in Marylebone where we live, having dinner, and he goes, he said something to me, he's like, oh, there's a girl at school that I like. And I'm literally like, don't say anything. Don't blow it. Oh my God, he's opening up to you. And this is sort of like an hour and 15 minutes into dinner. And this was a weekend where his, his mother was gone and I was just hanging out with him all weekend. And these moments, I, I put my, I try to, you know, occasionally put my son to bed. He's 15 and just sitting there, he's, he's more emotive. He'll kind of start asking questions. But those moments, you can't force those moments. And they just come through sheer brute Tonnage of garbage time. The other thing I, I like the one thing that sticks out on me that I would change. We've read somewhere you're not supposed to co sleep. And my young, my oldest used to show up at our door with a bag of basket of cars like an offering, like, if you let me sleep with you guys, you can play with these cars too. And we'd read somewhere from some idiot psychologist, you're not supposed to let your kids co sleep with you. So we used to take our oldest back to his room. We were very disciplined about it. And then we wake up in the morning, he'd be asleep outside our door. And I really regret not letting him co sleep with us the first couple years. I think that is a gift. And as I learn more about it, Japanese and Indian cultures are big fans of co sleeping. Like that just sticks out to me as something I, I wish I'd done. I wish I'd let our oldest come into bed with us when he wanted because eventually they don't want to sleep with you. And you would kill that. Like you would kill to wake up again with your kid like looking at you and then he wakes up and he smiles. It just, you know, those are the things you hope are going to run through your head on your last moments on earth. So I have some regrets but not knowing I was going to have economic security. I feel like I made the right decisions. So yeah, I think I have fewer regrets than most people around that side of my life.
- [32:36]
Phil
I'll get you right back to the in good faith pod in a minute. But first let me say, have you ever gotten a random spam call and think, how the hell did they get my number? Well, it turns out it might be from leaks like this. A billing platform recently exposed nearly 180,000 personal records, including names, emails and tax IDs. So yeah, someone's secure system. It basically left your data sitting out like an open Google Doc. And tons of businesses, they use tools like that every day. And you never know your information's just floating around until it's too late. And that's why I use today's sponsor, NordVPN, to keep my digital footprint locked down. Threat protection blocks malware, shady links and trackers before they even load. While encryption, it keeps your connection private even when the sites you use mess up. And I use it everywhere, from hotel, WI fi, airports or random coffee shops that definitely shouldn't have free WI fi. And also it's fast, like stream your favorite show from another country without buffering fast. You can even change your virtual location to access content or grab better travel deals. So don't wait for your data to end up in some unsecured spreadsheet. Protect yourself now. Just scan that QR code or go to nordvpn.com Ingoodfaith for a huge discount on a two year plan plus four extra months free. That's nordvpn.com InGoodFaith it's risk free with Nord's 30 day money back guarantee. Because privacy shouldn't be optional. Yeah, part of the question is I've just found myself in this period of time where I am making more and more choices based off of my relationships with my kids. They're 11 and 8, so they still think dad's cool. I also have the benefit of this job, so their friends also think that it's cool. And so I have that. But yeah, to your point, I like that idea of garbage time. We've started doing road trips more and so having that kind of just that time and proximity together. And I think it's also looking to my parents like I start. One of the reasons before we start filming I was talking about wanting to get my dad to move closer to me is I start thinking, how many times am I going to see him? Right. How many times did I see him when I was in college? And you know, these guys are going to be out the door before I know it and they're, you know, they're going to definitely go through that period of not being super pumped about me.
- [34:36]
Scott Galloway
So do you have boys, girls?
- [34:38]
Phil
Two boys, 11 and 8. Couldn't be more different than each other, but they're great.
- [34:42]
Scott Galloway
Yeah. So if you ever want to believe in nature over nurture, just have two because you just haven't treated them that much differently. My oldest will come in on a weekend when he was younger and say, let's make a plan. It's like something out of a Hallmark channel, like, where are the cameras? And my youngest is constantly assessing the household for vulnerabilities so he can strike when we're at our weakest. He's a terrorist. I mean, there just, there's just no way. We didn't, I don't, you know, youngest, whatever. We just didn't treat them that, that differently. But you're in what I call the golden decade. Like if I'm pretty sure at the end of my life, if I could pick any 10 years to go back, I even feel like, like I'm happy for you. But I don't know, you I feel a twinge of jealousy because I think it's impossible for you to recognize like that kind of 4 to 14 is just everything that's just, they're fun, they're into you, they're changing so fast. They're just. Watching them change in the way they perceive the world and the way they behave and the questions they ask are just so kind of interesting. You feel at least I felt very good about myself. I was in a nice relationship. I just, I just like, I felt like that. I think that's where a lot of people I think will look back on the happy, that that's when they were the happiest. That's or happy. Happiness is a sensation. What I'd say is it's a lot of stress because you're kind of trying to make a career and balance relationship with your wife and your wife wants more quality time and daytime and anyways, there's a lot. But that was, I think, when I felt the most purpose, if you will, like, oh, I really get to leverage my skills as a partner, as a dad, as a, as a, as a, as a economic engine. And I'm just enjoying it so much and I feel like, you know, I have purpose and I just love hanging out with them. So, yeah, I, you know, if I had any advice to you, take a ton of photos and just really soak it up and, and you know, be willing to make those trade offs right now because, you know, easy for me to say after having achieved some economic security because it's a competitive marketplace out there and it is just very hard not to get sucked in because success is in the last 10%. Quite frankly, the difference between working 40 hours a week and 50 hours a week is probably two to three times the likelihood of your success, not 25% more because you're competing against a world that mostly is working 40 hours a week. And so you get huge advantage when quite frankly you put in the last mile. And we all know that guy who has a great relationship with his parents. Money just reigns in on him. He's in shape, good relationship with his wife, great relationship with his kids. Assume you are not that person. Most people are not that talented. I wasn't. So there is, you know, like I said, there's no balance, there's trade offs. But if I could go back, if I could be anyone right now, I would be. Phil, I think you are in kind of the sweet spot, if you will.
- [37:33]
Phil
I'm going to use that clip. I'll be like, Scott's jealous of Me? No, I want to go back to you talking about happiness in relation to relationships because I know that you've kind of talked about the stats of people that are generally happier or people that are in relationships that are actually married. Obviously, there's the divorce rate conversation. But I was kind of interested about that because one of the critiques that I saw were people saying that you were kind of through having this conversation, treating women and relationships as kind of this utility to fix men, that in that way, women fix men. And I wanted to ask you if you found, like, that's just an inaccurate way to look at it, is it a bigger conversation because it's about more relationships?
- [38:22]
Scott Galloway
Well, there's a kernel of truth in there. Some of the feedback I feel is unfair sometimes online that comes from the far left is that somehow men are entitled to women or that women have an obligation to fix or service men. I've never said either of those things. I don't know. No group is responsible for servicing another group. Otherwise they're going to get violent and screw up society. It's up to, and this is a constant theme of the book, it's up to men to level up. And one of the reasons divorce rates have gone way up is, quite frankly, the byproduct of a good thing. And that is women have become more economic and economically independent. If they don't want to be in a relationship, they don't have to stay in a relationship. They're no longer sort of economically indentured, if you will. In addition, as women have ascended economically, I think there's a decent argument that men have been ascended at the same rate domestically and logistically or emotionally. And so a lot of women are just waking up and doing the math. 70% of divorce filings are from. Are from women. So. But also what I have said is men need relationships more than women. And I stick to that. And there's a ton of research there. There's this cartoon Phil of a woman in her 30s who didn't find romantic love. And she's sitting in a windowsill with a big sweater, looking out at a rainy day with nothing but her cats. And it's like some sort of great Greek tragedy that this woman didn't find romantic love. The reality is that women need relationships or romantic relationships less than men. Men benefit more. Widows are happier after their husband dies. I'm sorry? Widows are happier after their husband dies. Widowers are less happy. Women do live longer in relationships. They live two to four years longer, men four to seven. If a man hasn't been in a relationship or cohabitated with a woman by the time he's 30, he's. There's a one in three chance he's going to be a substance abuser. Women are better at channeling a lack of romantic energy back into work and friends than men. Men without a romantic relationship not only don't have that relationship, they usually oftentimes need a romantic relationship to maintain and develop new friendships. They're just not as good at maintaining. They're not as good from a relational standpoint, without the guardrails or the inspiration of a romantic relationship. And so what the data shows is that we need relationships more than women. And so one of the things I get pushed back on, I think men should pay on dates, at least initially. The majority of mammals have something resembling a courtship, a courtship process. And I think part of courtship for men is to pay. Now, that's not always the case. A lot of people say whoever asks who out should be, should pay. But the reality is 80% of women still state they want the man to initiate romantic contact, that they don't want to approach a man and quote, unquote, hit on a man. So I think. I mean, the way I rationalize it, or I'll call the land acknowledgement, is the following. The downside of sex is much greater for a woman than a man. A woman's fertility window is much shorter than a man's. You are going to. Data shows you are actually going to benefit more from a relationship than her. So there's an asymmetry of value and quite frankly, an asymmetry of the value of her time relative to yours. You can get married at 45 or 50 and have kids. She's got a shorter window to kind of figure it out. And so this one, I think one way you recognize that asymmetry and also one way you demonstrate valor, and quite frankly, one way you demonstrate attractiveness is to show that you appreciate her time. And one way you know, you appreciate the asymmetry of value here. And one of those ways you acknowledge that is that you pay. And also, I just think distinct of what we'd like to think. What I tell my boys is, always pay. My son's now 18, so he's becoming, you know, more of a man. I say, look, and he says, dad, that's primitive. And I'm like, I'm going to stand by this. If you ever want to kiss a girl, if you want to make sure she's never going to kiss you, just split the check. I Don't care what anyone says. You're never going to be physical with someone you split the check with. So just decide, I get it. I understand. Women make money too. But I think as a man, when you're around women, you pay. And that's gotten a lot of pushback. But then I look at.
- [42:36]
Phil
I was going to say you're going to get hit with a lot of. Well, actuallys.
- [42:38]
Scott Galloway
But yeah, yeah. But then I'm like, okay, but the reality is I just don't. And I'm going to get triggered. I don't find a lot of women grabbing for the check and I don't find a lot of women splitting a bill with a check and thinking, wow, I'd really like to make out with this guy now. So I stand by this, that men need to demonstrate strength to be attractive. There is an asymmetry of value in the relationship. Women's fertility window is shorter. Downside of sex is greater. So one way you signal your recognition of the value of her time is you pay. But even that's created like, you know, massive Reddit threads. And so anyways, it's. I like to think one way I try to make myself feel better and become somewhat immune from the criticism is that I'm not trying to be right. I'm trying to inspire a dialogue that moves, you know, that helps us all craft better solutions. But yet there's no. When you're talking about the difference in the genders, there's really no safe place. You just got to get used to the fact there's no pleasing everyone here. This is going to offend people. And I feel better about myself when I piss off both sides equally and that they tend to be the more extreme part of the spectrum.
- [43:52]
Phil
Yeah. The paying thing is interesting to me because it might be one of my more old school mindsets, kind of. With you, it's the standard. But I think it's also, I come from a place of. And this is something that you've hit on with, providing. I've always looked at it as, okay, I can be successful if whether I'm with my wife or I'm with a big group of friends paying for dinner. The only thing that I've noticed connected to that is where it rubs me the wrong way is if all of a sudden there's not someone doesn't say thank you and I'm like, okay, let's throw the whole old system out. Like, at least say thank you.
- [44:27]
Scott Galloway
Or there's an expectation. And yes, yeah. But some of that also is My trauma and that are. My dad grew up in depression era Scotland where you could literally starve if you didn't have money. And he had a horrible relationship with money. I remember being on vacation with him once. He was a salesman. He got invited to one of these Gold Circle sales award meetings. We went to Hawaii for the first time and we went and got ice cream one night and I ordered a shake from Baskin Robbins. And I'm not exaggerating, Phil. He didn't speak to me for two days. And I said to his third wife, my stepmom, I'm like, why isn't that talking to me? You know, you're a nine year old boy and your son, your dad just visibly stops speaking to you for two days. It's just like, there's no relaxing. You don't know what's going on. And she said, he's upset because you ordered a 2.25 shake without asking him. My dad was so traumatized by money. My dad was that guy. When he was in town. My parents were divorced, so I wouldn't see him that often. I remember him taking me and my best friend to see the movie Grease and then cornering my friend after the movie and collecting two bucks from him for the movie that he had bought the tickets and just observing that and feeling just so awkward and strange. And so for the rest of my life, I've gone the other way. I don't go to things unless I can pay for everybody. I was. I just. Not because I'm a generous good guy, but I just can't hand. I have a difficult time being friends with men who aren't. Aren't generous and always seem to kind of like, you know, you grab the check and they kind of, kind of always let it happen. There's. I don't have that many. You notice, right? And what you said, or don't say thank you or assume that, oh, because you have money. I don't. I don't. I don't. I find that. I find being cheap one of the most, one of the most unenviable attributes. And it's. You know what? I hold men to a different, a different standard, which is sexist. But my trauma around money and growing up with a father who is just so devastatingly cheap, it's. I've gone exactly the other way. And it's not because I'm a great guy, but I just can't handle the idea that I can't hold my own and demonstrate it economically. Anyways, that's.
- [46:40]
Phil
It's No, I get that. Yeah. No, I mean, I think the limits, the experiences of the not having early on or it being a potential dire circumstance, one, it gives you a whole different view of excess and the ability to control your future. But I mean, it's what I'm thankful for. Not having money, growing up and having those like, oh, well, we can't do that, or oh, almost freezing to death because we're waiting for a bus that never showed up. I'm thankful for that because I will never not have that.
- [47:13]
Scott Galloway
So spark.
- [47:13]
Phil
I will never not have that drive because you know what? It's not to have. And. And I also. I mean, my hope is also that it sparks empathy because I feel like we see so many people that then pull up the ladder behind them and they think that it's. Well, it's personal exceptionalism and get kind of furious. I. For the first time in my life, I live in a. You know, I mean, I've lived in nice houses, but I live around other people that are very well off now. And the amount of people that think that they are exceptional rather than, you know, that, you know, we were all part of this thing or they had this advantage or that. And, you know, some people like me have built up from essentially nothing. But I hate that because it's. It's the me and not the we. And it fucks with my head of like, can we move forward?
- [47:57]
Scott Galloway
I have a bias against rich kids. I just, I find out someone has rich parents and I just don't give them the benefit of the doubt. And a lot of it is one. I'm probably a little bit jealous, but I think you can have sympathy for people without money, but you don't really know what it's like unless you grow up without money. And also people have a tendency. And one of the things I'm in San Francisco, I hate about quote, unquote, tech brothers is they credit all their success, they credit their grit and their character for all their success and don't recognize how fortunate they were to be in America. They're not building. They're not launching rockets into space from South Africa. They're not building photo sharing apps in Vancouver or Seoul. There's something unique about our country that is not their fault that they've benefited massively from. You know, they're almost always male, they're almost always white males. They're almost always people who came from upper middle class or wealthy homes, unless they're immigrants. And the ones born with money, they just have no idea. I mean, Just some stats. The average high school spends $15,000 per student. The average high school in a poor neighborhood spends 8 to 10,000. The average elite private school, the top hundred spend $75,000 a year. So think of it as investing in the kid. You know, a kid from a top income earning household that goes to a private school is literally getting three quarters of a million dollars invested in them in training, education, special needs, exposure to interesting things by the time they apply to high school. And the result is the difference between lower and middle income households. And the SAT is 120 points. Where income inequality really kicks in is between the middle class and wealthy households now. And the difference in the SAT scores between middle class and upper income homes is 250 points. So if we were really going to be honest, if a kid grows up in a lower income home, we'd spot them 370 points on the SAT. I mean, you just, you just have no idea how every day you're getting advantage or you're not getting advantage. And I remember when I applied to UCLA, it had a 74% admissions rate and I didn't get in. And I was only applied to one school because I needed to live at home. I didn't have money and I didn't get in. I was one of the 26% that didn't get in. I remember I lived in a neighborhood where there was some wealth. And I remember friends, parents saying to me, what, Michigan's a great school. Why wouldn't you get on a plane and just go to Michigan and show up at the admissions office and say, you're here and you're good and you're such a, you're a smart kid, you're funny, da, da, da. And I'm like, Michigan, I don't own a credit card. I've been on a plane twice in my life. I don't know how that works. You don't have the confidence and the gumption at the same time. Some of that trauma, having jobs, being a busboy, being a waiter. One of the best jobs I had in college was I used to carry Lillian Hellman, this famous Author from the 40s and 50s, up and down her stairs because she was. Invalid's the wrong term. She was physically impaired. And she didn't. I used to carry her. That was my job. And I. And working as a busboy, I was a dishwasher. I think that fire, and it sounds like you have it too, to go the extra mile. And also just relating to people in an empathetic way. And knowing what it's like to get a big tip versus a small tip, knowing how hard it is to be a service worker and that you might be on the wrong end of someone's mood, I just think it's made, you know, me such a more ambitious, quite frankly, better man. So if I could give anyone a gift, it would be to start out without a lot of money. As long as I knew they were going to get some. You know, it's like. And I think I enjoy my money more than wealthy people. I just. When I go to a nice hotel with my. With my partner and I get to spend money, oh, my God, it's just so rewarding. We. We built it together. I haven't always had it. I really enjoy it. I just drink it up. I didn't, you know, I went to St. Bart's with my partner when we were dating, and I didn't know that even. I didn't even know that kind of place existed. I didn't, you know, I have a lot of friends now who have wealthy kids in their 20s, and I'm like, the world that the standard they're going to hold themselves to is so almost unattainably high right now. And it's like I was blessed. Like a really, you know, my first and only vacation was we went to Niagara Falls and we stayed at this weird camp with other families. It was, you know, I think it was like 34 bucks a day, including meals. I'm like, wow, that's what luxury is like, you know, so not having exposure. That meant once you built it with someone and got there, made it really, really rewarding. But I, I. My. One of my challenges, and I don't know how to do this. And maybe you have some advice. People say, well, how do you instill that fire in your kids? And, you know, the usual, like, sports and chores. But the reality is, if I had what my kids have, I wouldn't have what I have. I think I'd have a Range Rover and a cocaine habit if I'd been born up with, you know, raised with the money, my kids. I'm fundamentally a lazy person. So I worry about how do I instill that fire in my kids? And people always ask that. And the honest answer is, I don't know. Do you think about that, Phil?
- [53:18]
Phil
I think about it. For me, it's a balance of definitely my wife and I, because I don't want to create a situation where there are these spoiled brats that take everything for granted. But I also don't want to make them feel guilty for the opportunity that they have. I want them to, to have a taste and for them to hopefully, I mean, if it's the life that they want of having things at a certain level to, to, to use that as fuel to go like, okay, and I can make that for myself. They're 11 and 8, so I don't know what that's going to manifest into as they become men. But I mean, I don't know. I think of even myself. I, you know, I'm the product of very imperfect parents. I am who I am based on because of and large parts in spite of my parents. And I'm, I mean, when you talk about, you know, who would I have been? I started getting attention on YouTube and money in my pocket in my early 20s. And I'm very thankful for my then girlfriend, now wife, Lindsay, for, For keeping me in check and being my ride or die and going, hey, you're being an asshole here. You got, you got to check yourself. That's insane that you're, you're, you're not God's gift. And I'm so thankful I had that. And, and it. Even that. I mean, I don't know. I find the way that you talk about relationships interesting of even being masculine is, you know, there are certain areas in raising kids that, you know, we have a traditional relationship of her doing maybe like more 60, 40 of the time with the kids and the structuring, but like, I'm happy to be in this place in my life where it's like she is also doing her own thing. She's running now for a public office or school board. And I'm like, how can I help? Yeah, like, I want to be the support role for that. Let's just do this together. How can we foster everything together? So I don't know. It's something I'm still figuring out for the kids, but I'm enjoying it.
- [55:18]
Scott Galloway
But what you're tapping into the advice I would give to the first thing, you know, how do you raise good kids? I think the thing that is, first off, you can't tell them anything. You got to show them, right? And I do think a great practice for a lot of reasons is, especially with boys, is treat their mother really well. And I think it's going to help their relationship. With women, I defer to and absorb a lot of blows from, you know, I don't. They see how much I respect and defer to her and how impressive I think she is, how much I like her and, and I really try to be. My dad was not good to my mom and I, I've really tried and I have a lot of flaws around relationships. But one thing I think I've gotten right is I think the kids just observe how much respect and affection and love I have for their mom. And also what you're recognizing is it's so easy to get caught up in your own game and your own success and think, okay, it's trickling down to them more than anyone else. But one thing I think a lot of successful people don't take enough time is your partner. Sure, it's great, she'll register and enjoy your success, but everybody needs their own stage where strangers are applauding for them. It's just, and just to think it's all about your stage. And I found myself constantly talking about, well this is what happened to me and this is the speaking gig I got and this is how my book is doing. And recognizing your partner wants to be a, you know, wants success too. They want affirmation from third parties too. They're not just here to raise your kid. I mean it just, you got to take that time and really try and you know, give them the same push and support they gave you and occasionally like settle down and think, okay, this infrastructure has been amazing and it's been here to support me professionally. What are your, what are your profile like, what do you want to do like and how can I play a more of a support role? And this is, these are things and thoughts and never ended in my mind in my first marriage. And the operative term there is first. I just never thought that way. I thought, well, as long as I'm a baller and making bank, you're going to be just fine. And you should be appreciative of just how hard I'm working to try and make your life nicer. And some of that was true, but it was mostly I was doing it for me and anyways. But I think the fact that you're even thinking that way is, means you're way ahead of where I was at your age.
- [57:54]
Phil
Well, I think it, I think it also you can, I think you can make everything selfish when you talk about spending money and supporting others. It's, it's a very selfish and self supporting thing. It, seeing, seeing I think your partner thrive and you know, getting applause from stranger and thriving, it gives you another level of appreciation. It doesn't have to happen, but that's what my experience has been of seeing someone follow and thrive and try. But our time's winding down. So I want to do a hard pivot to two personal.
- [58:24]
Scott Galloway
I didn't even talk about. I haven't talked about the book or the code. The masculinity code.
- [58:29]
Phil
I feel like. I feel like. Well, one, I think that I highly recommend it. I'm personally halfway through and then I was like, I want to just. I've been listening for the past week of just you talking about the book. And I was like, how can I ask follow up questions?
- [58:40]
Scott Galloway
Yeah, I'm everywhere. I'm like AOL in the 90s right now. You stick your hand into a cereal box, you're gonna pull out a disc of sky. When is it to resist the scandal.
- [58:48]
Phil
Am I the. Am I the last stop or are you. How much longer are you doing this theater?
- [58:53]
Scott Galloway
Essentially the last stop. I go on Bill Maher tomorrow and then I'm pretty much done for a while and I'm kind of overexposed at this point.
- [59:00]
Phil
So the main show or where he's.
- [59:03]
Scott Galloway
High, I'm going, no, no, no. I'm going on the. I'm the top of the Bill Maher show tomorrow night. So I'm not on the one where he gets. Where he gets drunk and talks about his favorite rock bands.
- [59:15]
Phil
Yeah, okay. So actually, so that actually connects to this. You've talked about enjoying magic mushrooms. Is there. Are there any drugs that you would. I don't know if recommend is the right word, but recommend people past, let's say 25. I don't know if we. What. What precursors we want to add that they should try at some point in their life. Dangerous question.
- [59:35]
Scott Galloway
I think it's so individual. I don't. So I love alcohol and thc. I drink a lot. I've started drinking less and I've gotten, as Winston Churchill said, I've gotten more out of alcohol than it's gotten out of me. It's enhanced my relationships. I enjoy it. I'm naturally a bit of an introvert and I find I'm just a better. A little, you know, I think this is probably means you're an alcoholic, but I'm a little bit better version of me after a couple drinks. And so I've always enjoyed it. I've never really had a problem with it. As I get older, I recognize alcohol is just bad. I've had Andrew Huberman and Peter Atten my podcast and they basically trying to tell the world that alcohol is, you know, poison. So I'm trying to ramp it down. I replace it because I just like being high and that's terrible to say, but I think a lot of people are like me. Once or twice a week I take edibles, THC take 5mg at night, and I really enjoy it. And it helps me sleep. In terms of drugs beyond that, I've done mushroom chocolates. That's fun. But I get a mental hangover from it. The next day I'm a little bit foggy. You know, I've tried MDMA and X. I would say that's interesting. But I would suggest, you know, anyone who does that stuff does it with pharmaceutical grade or, you know, it's just you have to be so careful. And also, I'm just worried about the role model I set for my kids. I wouldn't want my kids doing pills or psychedelics right now. So I don't do a lot of that stuff. But sort of an accoutrement now and a hobby of the wealthy is these guided trips where they have some nice attractive lady who used to teach yoga, now shows up with a certain type of mushrooms, and you go to a beautiful place in Carmel and do a guided trip together. I think that stuff's fun, but you're basically being a drug tourist and there's nothing wrong with it. I think in certain instances it can make you feel closer to your partner. I've done one clinically supervised kind of massive hit of ketamine. I found that very rewarding. Also very scary. I've been too drunk and too high enough to know I was going to be fine, but there are certain moments I would have punched out if I could. And there's no getting off that elevator. But the. The drug of choice for me has always been alcohol. And unfortunately, it's not very good for you. But I've. And I've gotten a lot of shit for this. I've said I think young people should drink more and that the risk to their 20. The risk to their 20.
- [61:51]
Phil
Well, because I was gonna say. You say that it's because they just aren't interacting with one another. They're not having experiences and growing together. Was that kind of largely it?
- [61:59]
Scott Galloway
There are some people who are really confident and can approach women sober and go out and have a bond with friends sober and feel confident, get their confidence and their crazy fun side from different parts of their being. I'm not one of those guys, and I don't think most men are. And I think that the social lubrication of alcohol, I think if people are really honest and say to them, okay, look at your really great friendships from Back in the day, look at your romantic relationships. What percentage of them involve some level of alcohol? It's most people and almost all of their relationships involve some level of alcohol. And show me someone who's demonic now about the ills of alcohol. I'm going to show you someone who, you know was physical for the first time with the person who became their wife after a bottle of wine. And I'm not suggesting that you want to get people drunk. I'm suggesting that it is a social lubricant and that the risk to your 25 year old liver is dwarfed by the risk of social isolation. And in UK where I'm living, 40% of bars and pubs have closed. So where are young people supposed to meet and maybe develop a little bit of, I don't know, a certain amount of bad decisions? I said this on Billmont the last time I was on. I think young people should drink more and make a series of bad decisions that might pay off. Some people don't need it, some people don't want it. That's, I get it. But alcohol has been an incredible means of lubricating social connection and romantic connection for me. And I think that young people, young people are actually just not drinking and they're doing more psychedelics and more drugs. I don't know if, you know, it's up to them. I don't know if that's a good thing because I don't know if that creates connection. I think sometimes psychedelics are not what I call community drugs. I just think you're unlikely to do a massive hit of ketamine and then start approaching strangers for friendship or romantic relationships. So I'm, I'm, you know, I'm a, I'm, I'm not, I never had an addictive personality. But if you look at the data now, 6% of teenagers would qualify as clinically addicted to drugs or alcohol. 24 would be described as clinically addicted to social media. So it's just kind of where do you get your fix and what's, you know, and managing it and make sure it's not getting in the way of your life. But I, you know, I, I like that my kid who's 18 can drink beer in, in the pub and I think it's important that he ease into it. I didn't drink. I had a, my best friend in high school was Mormon. When I got to UCLA, I was 17 and I just couldn't handle alcohol. I didn't have, I didn't have, I had never tried it before. So I think kind of easing into stuff is, is the way to go. And everyone has their own relationship with substances, but alcohol has been. And marijuana or THC for me have been really additive to my life. Anyways, I say that and I immediately check back and think, you know, kids don't do drugs. But yeah, but I. Yeah, well, it's.
- [64:58]
Phil
It'S, it is that weird balance. I kind of see the point you're saying a little bit of the easing because if it's like you're going to do it anyway. My first, I didn't do anything until my first day of college. And then my friend was like, here's Bacardi 151. And then that was just a.
- [65:11]
Scott Galloway
And then you threw up. You're like, oh, this tastes good. I'll have nine more. And then you throw up and you can't smell Bacardi for the next 10 years. Anyway, that's what. I don't know if that happened to you.
- [65:20]
Phil
Yeah, no. Well, I mean, so then that I, I'm not a big drinker. I think I'll have like a drink when I want to go into sociologist anthropologist mode with my in laws and their friends and trying to understand like what's going on. Thinking, yeah, but I want to ask you, this is such a curveball thing. With ketamine specifically. I live a pretty clean life, but in several clinical settings I've tried ketamine and I don't know what your experience was. I almost felt like, and this is not a recommendation because I've seen people recommend different things like ayahuasca, and I've seen it ruin people's lives where it just completely changed them. But with ketamine specifically, what was your experience and do you feel like it could teach people empathy? Because that's how almost I walked away with it of that interconnected feeling of like, oh, you know what? All these things that people that are different than me were really not that different. I don't know how long that feeling holds, but it was eye opening at the time.
- [66:22]
Scott Galloway
I think that's. Look, there's been a lot of studies now showing that ketamine therapy and different types of types of therapy involving psychedelics and psilocybin, et cetera, can be really beneficial for people with trauma, extreme depression that antidepressants aren't working for. I think under a doctor's supervision. I think it can be fantastic. I did it. Yeah, I was a tourist. A friend of mine is a private equity guy rolling up these clinics and heard I was in Austin and said, I heard you kind of struggle with depression every once in a while. Why don't you do one of these things? And I did it. And it was a massive hit. And for me, I remember thinking, wow, this is really intense. You know, the wall started breathing. I started flying through the universe. It's disassociative. You're outside of your body. And I didn't have the same experience as you, but I did have a very positive experience. And that is, I have these. I got these. These, like, I can't. You know, there's 4K definition. I got these 4000K definition images of my boys. And it sort of, for me, solidified my purpose. And that is, I feel like I have a purpose. I know what it is. And it's to raise loving, patriotic men that will give me the right to leave this world and feel good about my role here. That's why I'm here. And everything that leads up to that, whether it's being good to their mother, creating a loving atmosphere, trying to be a better man myself. That's why I'm here. And then I had this really nice image of their mother where I went back to the nicest thing I'd ever received was one of my mom's boyfriends. I had, like, this really cheap, shitty skateboard. And this is in the 70s where everyone had a skateboard and you had to check your skateboard in at school. And I remember kids mocking me because I had this ridiculously stupid skateboard that literally cost 98 cents from Kmart. And my mom's boyfriend came home with this brand new Bain skateboard with truck. You know, I forget the name, just like the. The skateboard that costs, like, 38 bucks, which might as well have been a million bucks. And I kept having all these images of my wife as, like, that same sensation when I was unboxing this Bain skateboard that I just wasn't deserving of this thing. And I could never imagine I would have access to this thing. And of course, immediately, I promised myself I wasn't going to call anybody under the influence of ketamine. But as soon as I got out of the clinic, I called her and told her the story that, you know, I just feel like I'm so fortunate. And I feel like when I, you know, I. I see you, like, I have something I could have never imagined. I'd. I'd get to get to spend time with or have access to. And that was very bonding and very nice for us. So for me, I had A different experience. It wasn't an empathy thing. It was just solidifying and cementing. Having said that, I'd be scared to do it again, Phil, because there were a couple moments where I thought, whoa, this is. I would like, I would like to get off this elevator up. Because it is getting really freaky in here when the wall started breathing and I was flying through space without my body and wondering if I'm ever going to like, return to my body. So what I say to people is, I'm good at drugs in the sense that I've done enough drugs and been too high and then I'm fine to have the confidence that I'll be fine. So, you know, if you were going to fly for the first time, you wouldn't, I don't think you'd want to go up in a stunt, aerobatic private plane. Right. So I would suggest that, you know, you have a, you ease into it. But I, I, absolutely, I'm, I'm not going to recommend it to people because I think they need to have a doctor, someone who understands their, their, you know, there's some people, like, for example, my understanding is people have schizophrenic episodes should not do any of this stuff. But I, Yeah, I, I enjoyed it and I even think that it would be nice. I'm considering one guided trips with a bunch of other people. It's, it's kind of the new. I don't know, it's the new high end cruise or whatever it is. It's, it's, it's so cliche. So many, I'm in San Francisco, so many people are doing it. Before we go, can I just give you what I think are the three legs of the stool of masculinity?
- [70:28]
Phil
Absolutely. Because my last question was going to be. I know you feel like we haven't talked about notes on being a man. I feel like a lot of what we've talked about actually does encapsulate.
- [70:34]
Scott Galloway
Yeah.
- [70:35]
Phil
What you talk about and what you've been talking about.
- [70:36]
Scott Galloway
Nibbled around the edge.
- [70:37]
Phil
But, but I did want to open it up for a final. What do you want to leave me with? As a famed monologuer.
- [70:44]
Scott Galloway
Sure. So I think the three legs of the school of masculinity, and I think every young man needs a code. And people born as men have an easier time leaning into these attributes are one, being a provider. We talked a little bit about that. I think you should assume you're going to need to take economic responsibility of your household. Two, the whole point of developing strength and economic viability is such that you can move to protection. And if you think of the most masculine jobs, fireman, cop, military, at the end of the day, they protect. And the greatest, most rewarding feelings of purpose and masculinity for me have been when I can protect myself, I can protect my family, protect my community. And the ultimate expression of masculinity is when you can protect others. You're never going to meet the plant trees, the shade of which you'll never sit under. And then finally, being a procreator. I think men's desire for a romantic and a sexual relationship has been potential pathologized. I think it needs to be celebrated and it's a wonderful thing. And that for the vast majority of men, that wanting to have romantic and sexual experiences with other people makes them better men, makes them want to groom, makes them want to smell better, makes them want to be in shape, makes them want to have a plan, makes them want to have a kindness practice, which is the secret weapon in mating and makes them develop the most important skill in success. And that is the willingness to endure rejection and get back up, dust up, and try again. So those are sort of the three legs of the stool. And then the ultimate, I think, litmus test for when someone becomes a man. I think there are a lot of people born as males that never become men. And for me, it's this term that Richard Reeves, who's sort of my Yoda around all of this, coined. And that is surplus value. And that is don't make the mistake I made as a younger man. Thinking that all relationships are a transaction. And unless you're getting more, then you're giving, you'd exit the relationship. Unless I was paying someone less than they were worth, I was getting taken advantage of. Unless a friend was offering me more joy and camaraderie than I was offering them. I'd exited the relationship. Unless my romantic partners, I was getting more from them than they were getting from me. I thought, that's a bad deal. I took a very capitalist scorecard mindset to it. The whole point is to absorb more complaints than you're giving, Create more tax revenue than you've absorbed. Notice people's lives, even maybe more than people notice yours. Protect more people than you need protection. I think that's the whole point that you add generative value in your relationships. That's the whole shooting match that you know. That doesn't mean the relationship isn't working. It means that you show up as a positive member of society. And I think it feels wonderful. That's my goal and I'm still catching up with some of my relationships. But I love this notion of your goal should be surplus value. And what I tell my kids is you're adding negative value right now. Look at all the resources, the state, the school, your parents are pouring into. At some point you need to meet, you need to provide. I know a lot of people who still call their parents and bitch and complain to them and expect their parents to take care of them. At some point, you're taking care of your parents. You're listening to them and listening to their irrational fears and your doing your best to comfort them and you're supporting them, hopefully, or helping them economically. That's the whole shooting match. That's the whole point. So protector provider, procreator, and adding surplus value.
- [73:58]
Phil
Scott, thank you so much for the time, sir.
- [73:59]
Scott Galloway
Thank you, Phil. Congrats on your success and enjoy those. Enjoy the golden decade with your boys and your partner. I mean this sincerely. I envy and I'm jealous of you. And those aren't great emotions, but they come from the right way place, definitely.
- [74:15]
Phil
Thank you. And that, dear listener, is the end of today's podcast. And if you're listening to me here at the end and you're somehow not subscribed, what are you doing? Definitely subscribe. I've got weekly conversations that come out usually Tuesday or Thursday. If you like this one, I definitely recommend you check out one of our last two. No matter what, let me say thank you for watching I love yo Faces and I'll see you right back here next week.