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- [00:00]
A
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the In Good Faith podcast. My name is Philip DeFranco, and every week I'm talking to people I think are the most important and influential people in the world. And this week my guest is Kat Abaguzale. She's running for congress in Illinois's 9th congressional district. And last week she was actually indicted by the federal government for conspiracy to impede law enforcement during the ongoing Broadview ICE protests. Now, Kat says that the indictment is politically motivated. She's currently facing up to seven years in prison. And today we talked about that indictment, what running for Congress is like, and also just who she is as a person. So buckle up for the chat. If you're new here, definitely subscribe. And if you enjoy this episode, give it five stars on Spotify and Apple and give a like on YouTube. So, Kat, you're the, you're the first person I've had on who, who is actively facing a federal indictment after the. The DOJ unsealed it last Wednesday, charging you and five others with. With federal conspiracy for protesting outside of Broadview ICE process processing in Illinois. Now, I know you can't go into the specifics of the. The alleged incident, but can you talk about why you were there, why you were protesting?
- [00:55]
B
Yeah, absolutely. You know, Chicago has been under a terror campaign by ice. And you might have seen a video a couple weeks ago of an ICE agent throwing a little blonde woman to the ground, that small blonde woman was me. I say small because I'm 5ft tall. And that was something that people pointed out over and over again. And it really resonated with people because, well, they're not supposed to attack white or white passing folks. And while it hurt a lot, that was the third time an agent has done it. And what I really wanted to stress to people is no matter what we were going through out there, getting thrown, getting gassed, shot with pepper balls, dragged, whatever ICE agents were doing to protesters, the reason we were protesting that facility, it's so much worse in there. This is what they are willing to do to people on camera. What are they doing behind the boarded up windows? Because ICE has literally boarded up the Broadview processing center windows with plywood. We have heard, months ago, we heard about people being denied beds, people sleeping on concrete, grandmothers and pregnant women, dozens of men in a single cell, no access to hygienic facilities, no hot meals being held for days or weeks at a time, despite, because it's a processing center only being supposed to be held for 12 hours at a time. And now it's apparently gotten worse. The people who have been willing to speak out, which I don't blame anyone who's not willing to, they are risking their own and their family's safety to do so, have described scenes of horror, people being denied water, going into cardiac arrest and carried out on stretchers, being given fake translators so they'll sign their own self deportation notices. That is the reason we are protesting. That is the reason that despite, despite how ICE treats protesters, we keep coming back. And that is the reason that Chicago, not just at Broadview, across the city, across the suburbs, Chicago, has stood strong in a way that ICE and Trump did not expect.
- [03:05]
A
And how long have you been hearing about what's been happening at this facility? Like who's who? Who are your sources or not who are your sources? But where are you hearing about these things? Where are the stories coming from?
- [03:13]
B
The Tribune did a really great investigation into this facility earlier this year, and there's been a vigil at the Broadview Processing center for almost 20 years. Every Friday morning, I believe it was in late August, when a group of protesters, I think about six, joined that vigil and were arrested by Broadview pd. One of them was a woman named Rachel Cohen. And I saw her Instagram video of that arrest. And the week after, I and many others joined the vigil and the protest. And then it just became a weekly ritual of going to the center ice escalating week after week. But there are things that are more important than getting sleep on a Thursday night. There are things that are more important than your physical comfort. And that's why we were out there. And what we are hearing lately is coming from people who are talking to their lawyers. I had someone in this district actually tell me about a family member who was abducted by ICE and put in this facility. A family member that was older that doesn't like to worry people. So they didn't talk a lot about the conditions, but when they were sent to a facility across the country, they did express relief and said that that was the first time they had slept on a bed in over a week.
- [04:27]
A
And do you feel like, to a certain degree, obviously, this, this is such a standout moment, but do you feel like you're being specifically targeted in a way, whether it's because you're running or because of your, your background?
- [04:40]
B
Yeah, this is a political prosecution, plain and simple. I have covered the right for my entire career. I. These are things that I expected. I don't think I or my colleagues expected them to happen so fast. It's one of these situations where I did like an hour long explainer about white Christian nationalism in Project 2025 in October of last year. And so we expected this type of authoritarianism. It's been creeping for years, but the rate at which they are doing it is so aggressive. I figured that we would see cases that are so blatantly attacks on the First Amendment, blatant attempts to criminalize protests and free association. I'm not sure if I expected my name to be on the indictment, but it's not a surprise. What I am really moved by is just the amount of support we've gotten from people across the country, but especially in Illinois. Illinois elected officials, even my opponents came out with a joint statement of support which just was really moving and kind.
- [05:47]
A
Well, I was going to ask as far as the reaction, has it generally been a local reaction? As far as Dem leadership or community, has there been any larger support thus far? Or do you feel like people are maybe kind of waiting to see?
- [06:01]
B
Oh, we've gotten so much support. We had a lot of people donate, which is very kind because now we have to cover legal fees on top of campaign expenses, which are not cheap. But also like over a hundred elected officials in Illinois put out a statement of support which, you know, politics is weird and it can be like a dicey situation to sign onto a letter for someone that's running for office or anyone that's involved in politics. But the fact that the First Amendment is so sacred and that there is something that all of us can get behind and there is an attack that all of us can condemn, it just reminded me that, you know, there's, there's a team here and we're united in the fight against fascism.
- [06:49]
A
Well, okay, I was going to, I was going to say, I mean were, were there any calls as far as local that you were surprised or you kind of expected it? Because there have been, I believe there's, there are a number of other people that are running that have been out there in the protest with you, is that correct?
- [07:01]
B
Yeah. So the first week I went there was like no one even pull politically adjacent there. And then the next week we had an elected official and actually one of my opponents joined me, which I was grateful for. We stood shoulder to shoulder and stood up to ice. And then the next week some more elected officials and some more of my opponents came out and we were all tear guest and that's part of what is really important to me as someone with a large platform is making sure that to set an example for what I would like the world to be and also to get the word out about things like this. And I'm just really grateful that, once again, there's, like, something larger that goes beyond a political race that all of us can stand behind, which is what ICE is doing is not okay, and what our neighbors are going through is not okay, and it needs to end.
- [07:54]
A
Well, okay, I was going to. I was going to ask there regarding, like, what our neighbors are going through, because, like, the protests outside of Broadview, they become a big part of the race in the 9th district. But I guess technically Broadview is not in the 9th district. So how did that kind of come to be and be a part of what's happening right now?
- [08:10]
B
So whenever someone is abducted by ICE in the Chicago area, they're brought to Broadview. So there have been raids in Evanston, in Rogers park, across the 9th district and across Chicago, and those people are brought to Broadview. So it doesn't really matter what district Broadview, it proper itself is in. That is where people go, and that is where the humanitarian crisis is right now. And it's one of these things where, you know, even if It's. Even if ICE was just across the border of the 9th district, which, if you've seen the shape of these districts, they're very interesting, it's not something you can ignore because it will also come for you. This never stops at one group. It never stops at one geographic boundary. But, you know, the 9th is being terrorized by ICE, and our neighbors are being brought to Broadview and then often shipped out to God knows where. And people are still trying to find their family members. And so I think it's really important to keep eyes there and to recognize what is happening and for our elected officials to stand up and say, enough is enough. You know, we've had representatives like Delia Ramirez and Chewy Garcia try to inspect this facility, which they are allowed to by law, but ICE has not let them in. And that needs to be a priority for whoever wins. You know, this seat is. If I am the representative for the 9th district, I will be coming back every single time I am in the district until I can inspect this facility.
- [09:44]
A
Why run specifically in Illinois and why specifically the 9th district?
- [09:48]
B
So I moved to Illinois with my partner. I was really excited. This has been kind of like the foundation for my family. It's where my father and grandfather immigrated. It's. My parents got engaged. Like, it's always been a big part of my life. And so when we moved here for my partner's job. I was like, oh my God, baby, you're gonna, you're gonna love it. And we had to move under really short notice. And so we looked at neighborhoods we liked and we decided like Rogers Park, Andersonville, Edgewater. And yeah, we, I wanted to run in the place I plan to live for the foreseeable future. And I wish I had like a cooler answer than that, but it's just a lovely place to live.
- [10:21]
A
Well, no, I love kind of thinking about like the, the mental math and the, the strategy there because I think you were initially primary Jan Schakowski. Right. And then she decides seem run again. And now your biggest opponent is Dan Bliss, the, the mayor of Evanston. So how does that change the situation? Does it. Is there any change to the, I guess the calculus there?
- [10:39]
B
Yeah, I mean, I didn't run in this district to run specifically against Representative Shakowski or to run against a field of 17. I ran here because that's where I want to live. As many have pointed out, they're like, you should have run in this district. And I'm like, I don't want to, I want to live here. And you know, Maribus is a great guy. You know, we see each other all the time on the campaign trail and we've been tear gassed together. There's a, there's a bond there now. But when I started this campaign, there were several reasons. Part was, part of it is I wanted to show a different way of doing politics and standing up to the right because that's what I've been doing through my career. And Illinois does so many things right, which is why until very recently, most people in Illinois didn't have to know who Dan Bongino was, which is someone that I have not only known about, but had beef with and actively done work against in the past. You know, Stephen Miller, Tom Holman, all of these people that run the administration now run our government. And so I think that we need a more effective fight against the right. And I have a track record of fighting and winning against the right. But I also wanted a campaign that is focused on people and uses our resources in a unique way. I want to, I saw how much money got wasted in 2024 just for Trump to win. And I thought, damn, how many food banks could be funded with that? How many clinics could be funded with that? And it's one of these things that you just. It's been talked about a lot, but no one ever really tries it. One of the things I ran into a lot explaining my campaign While setting up campaign infrastructure is a lot of the ideas I had, people would say, well, that won't work. And I said, we'll. We tried it. And they were like, well, no, but it won't work. That's not how we do it. And so we said it, we'll try it this way anyways. And so no matter who my opponent or opponents would be, our campaign is focused on people, on reaching as many people as possible. I'm tired of politics always being about, like, playing 40 chess off of the entire field. I really want to focus on the people that you're trying to represent. And that's why we use our campaign resources to not just reach voters, but materially improve their lives. From, like, backpack drives to our campaign office doubling as a mutual aid hub. We're really focused on bringing material change before election day and not leaving anyone behind.
- [12:59]
A
Yeah, no, I. When I was listening back to a few podcasts you've been on, what you've been able to do as part of the campaign has been very interesting to see enacted also. I mean, recently I've been getting more involved in local town halls. And to your point, what can you do that's not just I stand against Trump seems to be such a big aspect of, like, what are you actually going to do for us? And so it's great to see that. But then on the other hand, because I've. I've heard you talk so much about primarying really old establishment Dems that aren't doing enough for the moment. Do you almost feel like you wish that you were primary ing someone that was more of kind of that thing that. That bothers you about the Dem side right now?
- [13:41]
B
Not really. You know, I mean, Representative Szakowski has been a progressive force for years. You know, I'm Palestinian, even if I don't look at. And despite I would probably have done some votes differently in the last two years, she has stood up for Palestinian rights way before most politicians in both parties would. You know, she boycotted Netanyahu speech in 2015. So, like, when I launched the campaign, some people were saying, well, this is supposed to be like a establishment versus age thing. And I was like, no, this is my issues with the party. I want to give people another option. But this was. I really respect her. You know, there are other politicians across the country that I might feel differently about, but I really wanted to make this about. I really try to make this campaign positive in a way, like negative, against the right. But we have 17 candidates in my race, and there are A lot of people that want to do good and we all have different approaches for doing it. And I think we're really lucky to have this situation in the 9th. And I just, I really want to focus it on what I would like the world to be rather than how I want to fight a specific person or persons.
- [14:54]
A
Well, it's, I guess it's less about specific persons and it's more how I feel like. You know, there's been a constant criticism of Hakeem Jeffries, constant criticism of Chuck Schumer as far as what Dem leadership has done. And so I mean, in that way of being able to more directly oppose it in a primary because more and more Democrats want the establishment to be primaried right now because they're not happy with what they've seen.
- [15:18]
B
Absolutely. And I mean, I think that it's kind of cool being in such a deep blue district because we can have these conversations more honestly and openly. And I think that the things that distinguish me from the rest of my field, as much as I respect my opponents, I'm the one with a track record of fighting and winning against the right. I am the grassroots candidate in my race. I am the only candidate to have 75% of my money come from small dollar donations. I'm not taking money from billionaires or corporate PACs. Republican funded packs like APAC. And we are using our resources in a new way. You know, I'm the only candidate out here doing punk shows and comedy shows and knitting circles and live streams. I mean, right before we logged on, I told you that I was 15 minutes late because the night before we did our Hot Ones livestream with the 32 hot sauces we have in the campaign office. And I ended up eating a pint and a half of ice cream for the last three. And so I had a, a stomach ache until like 2am but we're not doing call time. We're not calling rich people all the time. We are connecting with people on the ground and online.
- [16:23]
A
Yeah. And so this is going to be kind of the last question regarding kind of the now before I want to get a little, a little more into your background and your history. But it'd be, I'd be remiss if I didn't ask. So you recently did an interview with Tara Palmeri where. Yeah, it looks like you ended the interview early. The rights jumped on this in an attempt to say it shows that you can't handle the heat, that you're running away from the situation. Tara even wrote on our substack for all her wit and energy, if she wants to be a public servant, she'll have to handle tough questions, not walk away from them. I kind of want to just give you the opportunity to speak on why you ended the interview.
- [16:59]
B
Yeah, absolutely. I've never ended an interview early before. So if you're under, if you're in an open case or under federal indictment, any lawyer worth their salt is going to tell you you can't talk about the specifics of that indictment. Any journalist worth their salt will know that as well. Especially if you as got, you know, specific guidelines of what we can and can't talk about legally, which we did send over and we talked about before recording, she asked the same question three different times about specifics about the indictment. And I prioritize my legal defense over someone else's podcast. So it's not that I don't want to talk about, you know, ICE and all these things, but, you know, sorry, just. I think that my legal defense is more important than your views. It's, that's really what it comes down to. And I tried to be as respectful as I could, said thank you so much for having me, and logged off, but it's really not that complicated.
- [18:04]
A
Yeah, no. And I had to ask because it's, it's very interesting to see depending on where you go online, people, people have, are pushing the narrative that I mentioned before the question or people are like, obviously to your point, she's going to care about her defense. So I was very interested in just hearing.
- [18:18]
B
I did appreciate all the lawyers online that were like, I wish I had her as a client. And I was like, damn right you do. Yeah. I mean that's just how legal cases work. And like anything you can, anything you say can and will be used against you. And that's not a joke, that is a real thing. And once again, I care more about my defense than your substack.
- [18:40]
A
Yeah, actually, so I lied. The last question before we, we get into more personal. Because, sorry, you mentioned it. And then I was like, I wanted to ask her about this. What have now being in your position, what, what's the, the hardest or the thing that you hate the most about campaign finance, fundraising, all of that.
- [19:02]
B
This is kind of like a two parter call time, which is like why we started doing live stream fund. Call time is when you just sit in a room and call rich people day in and day out. That is how pretty much every candidate and elected official get most of, if not the majority of their money. Yes. Even the ones you like and everyone hates it. The candidates hate doing it, the people that are getting called hate it. No one's having a good time. There's an entire industry set up on it. We have now substituted it with live streaming which is a lot more fun because it's like a virtual town hall several times a week. And sometimes I get tortured with hot sauces that are there for shock value. Like I have a very, very high spice tolerance. I really want to stress that to the audience. And you know, we get to do a lot of fun stuff. And so that is the most frustrating thing about campaign finance. I think the most frustrating thing about like finances in campaigns is it is so hard to run for office if you're not already rich. I knew it was inaccessible, I didn't know how inaccessible. Like I've pretty much just depleted my savings throughout this. I know that it's like finite that'll end at some point. And so that's what's kind of getting me through. But one example I always give is if you're a non incumbent candidate, you can take a candidate salary and this is calculated as half of your average income over the last five years. So if you've up to the congressional salary, which is like I believe 174 000. So if you've been making 200k over the last five years, great, you have a hundred thousand as kind of a cushion and that's taken out of donations that you get to your campaign. But you know, that's helpful if you're a parent for a family of four and you're making 32k which is the federal poverty line for a family of four that slashed to 16,000. Someone make it make sense.
- [20:49]
A
Yeah, it's.
- [20:51]
B
It's so hard to run for. I think that is why, you know, half of Congress is worth a million dollars or more. Some of that is because of insider trading and stuff like that. I think a lot more of it is because getting into office in the first place is so much more difficult if you're not already a millionaire.
- [21:07]
A
Yeah, I can't.
- [21:08]
B
I don't know.
- [21:09]
A
Every time I look at running for public office, it does not seem worth it. So your brain definitely works different than mine, which on that note, amazing transition. What would you say, what moments in your early life, if there are any, do you think kind of most shaped your view on power and media today?
- [21:30]
B
I. I was a big reader growing up. I love and loved reading. I was named after Katherine Graham, who was leading the Washington Post during the Pentagon Papers. Meryl Streep played her in the Post and also Katherine Hepburn. But Wes relevant and everyone that was kind of like, I'm probably the most like aggressive and outspoken person in my family and I think a lot of that just came from the characters that I admired while reading. I always really admired women specifically that spoke out against power. Even though I grew up like as a Republican, a lot of my values and what I respected most did not align with that party. I was raised in a very like feminist household, though my parents probably wouldn't have used the term then. And every single character that I identified with and that I wanted to be like, whether it was Ayla and Clan of the Cave Bear, whether it was, you know, Katniss in the Hunger Games or anyone in between, was someone that stood up for what they believed, even when it was hard and pushed back against injustice and inequality.
- [22:44]
A
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- [23:58]
B
Yeah, my parents, my mom was raised in like, a very Republican household. My grandmother was a Republican operative in Texas, actually. I have had people be like, she would be so proud of you. And I'm like, I don't know if that's true. I think maybe in the way that like in a movie, a sheriff and like a someone in the, you know, county jail have like a mutual understanding of each other, but I'm not sure would she would love what I believe, and that's fine. But my mom was raised in like this super Reagan Republican household. My dad is an immigrant. He's a Palestinian immigrant and, you know, assimilated and met my mom and used to go over to. When his parents immigrated, he'd go over to their house and have us both dressed in matching Bush Cheney shirts. I was like five. And it would drive my grandmother insane. Despite that, like, we talked a lot about fiscal response, responsibility, and, you know, well, poor people should just save more. That was like the big thing that I used to think as a kid that I'm like, oh, wow, that's just wrong. But, like, a lot of our views didn't really match this party. At no point growing up did I feel like I couldn't do something because I was a girl. We didn't talk about the fact we were Arab because it's post 911 Texas. But, you know, that was still part of my life. And I, when I moved to Tucson, when I was like 15, we moved to Tucson. And it's much less segregated by income than Dallas is. And I had friends who were much smarter and more talented than me who couldn't afford to go to college even with a full ride because they either had to help take care of their families, they couldn't afford books. A bunch of different reasons. And I often say, talking about people in a bubble of right wing misinformation, you just kind of need that one puncture to make people start genuinely questioning. And that was my puncture because I was like, maybe Ronald Reagan isn't right about anything. I had this friend who would have been an incredible doctor who still isn't because she couldn't afford to go to college, much less medical school. And then Trump announces run for president, and we did not like him at all. Oh, my God. My parents and I were like, maybe Marco Rubio is the answer. Which ridiculous. And, you know, by the election, I was 17, so I couldn't vote. But I did some canvassing for Hillary, you know, the voter registration drives. My parents voted for her. I don't think they voted Republicans since. And, you know, now they're both pretty progressive. My mom especially. They're very proud of me. My dad downloaded TikTok so he could see our campaign videos, like, when they come out, which is very sweet. So, yeah, we've all kind of had this evolution together.
- [26:30]
A
So do you feel like when you said, you know, the poor people just need to save more and then you realized, oh, that's wrong, Was it specifically once you got into those other situations and you got around or you were in a more diverse setting, that that's where it clicked, or there was something beforehand that maybe you were consuming or got the wheels moving?
- [26:47]
B
That's a really good question. No one's ever asked me that. I think that's also part of it. I was really active on Tumblr, like, especially pre Yahoo sale. And that was like my first exposure to kind of like the idea of feminism, capital F. And I was like, wait, that's what I believe. But I've been told by Fox News that that's wrong. Like, I see them complain about feminists. You know, Glenn Beck complains about feminists. How could this be real? And so I think that kind of primed me for that point. But, like, my parents made an effort to have us travel and like, experience different cultures. A big part of my life is food. And so we always, like, that was a priority. We don't just go to specific restaurants. We try to find like, holes in the wall wherever we're traveling. So, like, I had seen poverty, but I never really had people in my life who were profoundly in poverty that were like, close friends of mine and that I think it's like how the best way to fight transphobia is meeting a trans person. People that have a lot of anti Palestinian sentiment, when they meet me, they'll be like, I didn't know Palestinians could be like you. And it's like, yes, we can have blue eyes and dye our hair blonde, but, like, we'll come back to that. Like, you're on the right track. And so that exposure really showed to me, like, oh, this is not just about, like, it's not. The bootstrap myth is a myth. And I think that's what really got it for me.
- [28:11]
A
Well, I mean, I know that part of your job in the past was consuming right wing media. You know, you talk about being raised kind of more right wing. Do you think that more people on the left need to be aware or consume some right wing media to kind of understand where maybe people are coming from? Or what people are consuming or I don't know. Or do you think that there is a, a rabbit hole risk there? I don't know.
- [28:34]
B
Yeah, I mean I think that they're kind of like two different sections of people here. And there are just people that will be bigoted and stuck no matter what. And that's a very small percentage of the population. There are a lot more people that are ignorant because they have been like the system is set up to keep them in a bubble of misinformation created by billionaires like Rupert Murdoch. And what I often say about ignorance is the effects are incredibly negative, but its existence is completely value neutral. You don't know what you don't know. One example that I like to give is Killers of the Flower Moon. I grew up in Texas, I camped out in Oklahoma. I had no idea about the Osage murders until I read that book, watched that movie. And there's no way for me to have found out about that unless I was exposed to it in school or someone told me about it and I looked it up. Otherwise it just doesn't exist. How would I have known? And so when it comes to right wing media, this is a big problem with Democratic leadership in particular. A lot of people talk about communications and there is an illiteracy of new media in the Democratic party. But there even more. There is an illiteracy in the right. And I and my colleagues in the disinformation reporting space have spent a lot of time trying to convey this to the Democratic Party. We told them about January 6th before it happened. We told them about COVID misinformation. We told them about where the DEI CRT anti trans panic would lead us and they ignored it. I did a very long training with a staff of a major Senate. I think I've said it before. Yeah, I did a very long training with Chuck Schumer's staff about how to use Fox News as a weapon. And then everything I said was ignored. And that's the thing that really frustrates me is if you want to know what's going to be on the House floor on Tuesday, you have to know what is being said in right wing media on Friday. If you want to know what arguments are in good faith, you need to know which ones are made in bad faith. You need to understand conspiracy theories. You need to understand what people are being subjected to. So that way they'll be afraid. Because fear is the most most primal human emotion. And when you're scared, you can sway people to do whatever you want. You can say this, this group is the reason that your needs aren't being met. This group is the reason you're scared. Republicans are playing communications on easy mode. They make you scared. That is why it's really important for us to not only know what they're trying to make people scared of, because mockery helps. Being like, it's not really that scary of leaders, not just people in general, and also like explanations, but not really long word explanations. Just be like, hey, you know, this is a trans person. They're normal. This is, you know, someone in your community. But also being able to preempt the threats that they put on the House floor, on the Senate floor, what they try to push in the media and then create an agenda that is about more than just words. We have to put actions behind it. We have to put our resources behind meeting people's material needs and filling in the gaps Trump creates, because actions will always speak louder than words.
- [31:42]
A
So when you're talking about weaponizing Fox News, it sounds largely of it being pre production or information gathering rather than maybe throwing a Pete Buttigieg on. Or do you think it's, you know, two different fronts, same kind of battle?
- [31:56]
B
It's definitely the former. There are very few Democrats that I would encourage to go on Fox News. And the ones that have, that have done well are usually people that have been kind of like submerged in that, that right wing media slop and understand what's going on here. The one example from when I cover Tucker Carlson is there was this right wing conspiracy theory that the IRS was bringing on 80,000 agents to audit you at gunpoint. In reality, a lot of the IRS employment was aging out of the workforce. And so 80,000 employees were going to be brought in over, I believe, 10 or 20 years. And very few of those would be special agents. I can't remember exactly where the conspiracy theory came from, but Matt Gaetz was pushing it. And on Tucker Carlson, this is why Jesse Waters will never be Tucker. Tucker really understood how to plant these seeds. Jesse will say something that is insane and would be the biggest story of the century and then just never mention it again. So Tucker brought Matt Gaetz on on a Friday at the very end of the show to kind of just drop this seed. Then on Monday, he brought it up again in the C block. And then on Tuesday, he made the entire A block about it. So it was a long, long period of time talking about, is it true these IRS agents are going to come to your house with guns to audit you for your taxes, for George Soros or whatever the. That they're trying to imply. And then he kept doing that, just bringing it up again and again, clockwork, oranging the audience and the Republicans that would watch this, the Republican representatives that would watch this, because they're all trying to jockey for a spot on his show to the point that they brought it up on the House floor a week later. Like, that is the type of stuff. And then you had some Democrats that were like, not really sure where this came from and kind of bewildered, which understandable. That's an insane thing to say. And then even some that were like, we need to look into this. We don't need to look into this because it's just patently false.
- [33:55]
A
This is, this, this goes kind of so beyond the, the moment. And, But I just, because I have you on, I have to ask, do you think going into 2028, the, the bigger power player is Tucker Carlson or J.D. vance?
- [34:09]
B
Ooh, really good question. You know, everything is in such flux that I'm not really sure we could have a totally different Congress in 2027. Things will be different no matter what. One thing I will say is, unlike Trump, JD Vance is incapable of creating, like, a cult of personality. He just has no Riz. He's, he's like whatever the opposite of Riz is. And people speculated that Tucker would run for president. I'm not sure that's the case because he's kind of lazy and I don't think he would want to run for president. I think Riz Wise. Tucker Carlson. I think if he has the billionaires that puppeteer him. JD Vance, if they do it effectively enough. JD VAN But I'm not totally sure.
- [35:01]
A
I mean, both, I mean, just watching the way both move and things that have happened in the last two weeks, it seems like they're both figuring out how to navigate and bring a party that does have like a 7030 divide that. I know that you, you kind of talked about the more bigoted aspects of the party are smaller, but it seems like JD Vance has been taking more and more shots, at least online. I don't know how real X is compared to the real world, but I don't know. I just, I, I constantly look at how those two navigate. And especially given your history, I wondered if you thought, oh, no, it's a one was a shoe in. But it sounds like definitely more in flux.
- [35:36]
B
Yeah, I mean, J.D. vance just has no Riz. It's crazy how, how little the Halloween.
- [35:42]
A
The Halloween thing didn't do it for, for his audience. You don't think.
- [35:46]
B
Yeah, I don't think so. He's just like. He's so cringe. It's crazy. And the one thing that, like, Tucker might run for president, but, like, he is just. He is lazy. Like, anyone that's watched him on for a living can tell you he's lazy. I don't think he wants to put in the work to become president. I can say, as someone campaigning for a House seat, it is a lot of work. I can't even imagine what a presidential run is like.
- [36:11]
A
You don't think the. The allure of power because he has power in his own different way, it's fine.
- [36:15]
B
Yeah. But you still gotta, like, do a bunch of stuff. Like, it's like, even though you're trying to get the power, you still gotta, like, go to Iowa, you gotta go to all these states, you gotta do all these rallies. You got to do all these interviews. And even if he just does it with people he likes and focuses more online than anything else, like, it's just.
- [36:39]
A
I think. I think you're acting. I think you're accidentally humanizing him for me, because I'm like, I am also lazy.
- [36:46]
B
Look, I don't think it has to, like. I think that is a very human feeling to be, like, running for president. It seems insane. I wanted to be the first female Republican President of the United States. The United States. When I was, like, seven. And then I realized that you have to, like, kind of be a sociopath to even get in a position to run for president and be like, I should run the country.
- [37:06]
A
I think we're at a place where the voting body understands you have to. You either have to be the biggest idealist or a sociopath. And I think people.
- [37:14]
B
Yes, that's exactly what it is. If you're not a sociopath, you have to be like. You have to be so sure about your ideals. It's crazy.
- [37:21]
A
Yeah. Because I have my own opinion and I love that.
- [37:24]
B
I like people that care about their ideals.
- [37:26]
A
Yeah. But, I mean, I have my own opinions on candidates, but my favorite thing is to just watch how things evolve. Where you looked at, for example, I think you have feelings about him, but looking at Gavin Newsom and going, wow, that guy had national horrible polling nationally. And then there was this wave, and I don't know how much of it was charged through TikTok, where they were like, he is a sociopath, hell bent on power, but he's ours. And that apparently became a winning message.
- [37:54]
B
Yeah. For some.
- [37:58]
A
Not for you. So actually I mean, coming from a place of having not only this been your job, but just being in the content creator ecosystem, how much of the equation is, you know, I have all of this stuff online. I'm not wording this great, but you have this, this huge backlog compared to, you know, someone running 10 years ago. We're seeing more and more controversies for new candidates. It's going to be very interesting to see how much people care or don't care. I mean, how much of that kind of goes into you thinking about running and going, screw it, I'm going to do it anyway.
- [38:37]
B
Yeah, it's really hard to make me ashamed of myself. I have the right loves to post this picture that's on my public Instagram of like me bartending, being goofy with my. And I'm wearing like, it's after a long shift. I'm wearing like fishnets and sitting on the cooler and they're like, look at how embarrassing this is. And it's like, bro, it's on my public Instagram. Like, it's still there. You can, if you're listening to this, you can just check it out. Right now we have a president who said he grabs women by their genitals and was like, hey, it's not that big of a deal. Like pictures of me goofing off in college or bartending, I just don't care. And I think that's a big thing. Is like, we always feel like is like the Democratic parties often tries to treat any criticism as like valid and sometimes it's just not.
- [39:26]
A
Well, the way that I've seen that largely playing out now, is it. It feels like that photo has like become part of the idea of fascism. Scared of this 5:1 zoomer, right? That's. It feels like that that photo has been associated. So it feels like it's a Portland frog esque to a certain degree is is what it feels like.
- [39:43]
B
No, genuinely like that's a, that's a huge part of fighting the right that I've tried to stress to people was like, oh, they're trying to like embarrass you. What if you just weren't embarrassed? What if like I remember someone posting that picture right when I ran and they were like this wants everyone to have free child care. And I was like, oh no, don't show everyone that I had like a working class job and think every like, like you deserve basic human rights. Yeah. I mean it's like I'm very open. There's so much of myself online and that's totally fine. I remember people trying to jump on this thing where I'm in this charizard onesie. And because the pandemic happened soon after that, this count. These count as my college senior pictures. And then we just fundraised. I was like, if you want to see a congresswoman in a charizard onesie, like, donate here. And we raised like 7k off of that. They really don't know what to do with a little switcheroo.
- [40:36]
A
Also just have to ask. I think we have to ask for every candidate now. No overseas tattoos while you're serving.
- [40:45]
B
No overseas tattoos. No. Yeah, no tattoos to be worried about.
- [40:50]
A
Okay, very good. Has there. Has there ever been a fight against the right when, you know, working for Media matters or doing anything where you thought. But I don't know if it's. This goes too far or it's just not worth the fight right now because there's. There's a million fights constantly happening. Is there ever a point where you're like, you know, the. It's not worth the squeeze?
- [41:12]
B
I think a lot of it's like rage bait. Like, there's a reason I didn't really comment on the Terror Palmeri thing because it was, you know, pushed on right wing sites of like, this, you know, idiot Gen Z candidate is scared. And I was just like, this is obvious. Rage bait to get more engagement, to get more clicks purposely edited to be misleading. But even commenting on that creates a new story. And it's just. It's not worth the squeeze. Like, it's. This is exactly what they want. So when it comes to rage bait, you know, we're seeing a lot of right wing figures start resorting to, like, blackface or creating like Hitler mustaches to trigger people into, you know, know, condemning them. And it's literally shock as people move farther and farther to the right. This is an issue with Tucker is after the great replacement theory and the big lie that he pushed on Fox News. He kind of ran out of like a ceiling besides overt holocaust denial. And so he started going on this rant about how cigarettes are actually good for you. And he'd like bring it up constantly. And there's like, I quote to my partner all the time, we'll just be like, nicotine freeze your mind. Which, if you ever seen the clip, that's exactly how he says it. Um, and at that point, it's literally just shock value. It's just him being like, well, I don't have any other ceiling to go to except things that will, like, actually get me kicked off of Fox. So I guess we're doing pro cigarette campaigns.
- [42:38]
A
Yeah.
- [42:39]
B
In that case, do mockery, don't do, don't be like, this is awful.
- [42:43]
A
So, you know, but I, I do, I do wonder where do you think the line is regarding. I mean, there's constant talk of the right very largely being a machine that is unified. Right. But where is the line, do you think, for independent media or just media that's not on the right asking questions to get information and possibly, you know, and hold to account those that they might be more aligned with, or at least not aligned with Trump versus like, possibly creating a distraction while there's a million other scarier things that are happening to, to everyday Americans.
- [43:18]
B
Okay, you asked a question that's going to get me on a whole thing because I love, I love this question and like, love this conversation. So there are like a few points here. First off, the right is unified because their unification is fear, anger and hate. But in reality, when you look at the right wing media ecosystem there, it's a lot less unified than you think. And that's part of the reason it flourished so well over the past decade and a half is people like Ben Shapiro and Charlie Kirk were able to push the party right by criticizing the party. And we have Republicans in my district that are like, I don't know if I agree with everything you believe, but I do think you actually believe it. And I like that you're willing to hold people in power to account. And that's something that a lot of Americans feel like we don't do enough is whole people in power to account. And so when you have, whether it's in good faith or bad faith, when you have people on the same team saying, hey, I don't like this, we should do this instead, if that is accepted to be an actual, not just strategy, but a moral imperative, then the party has more legitimacy. And so for people that already felt that way, the party gained legitimacy. And for people who didn't feel that way but were maybe, you know, conserva curious, it was like, oh, well, they're at least willing to question that. The Democratic Party has not done that. I was one of the credentialed creators at the dnc and it became very obvious to me immediately that I was the token Palestinian and that anyone who wanted to, like, have any kind of honest conversation, even like, to, you know, get to a good place, like we're more ideologically aligned, you were denied access, like, I requested interviews with surrogates to have just like a very honest Conversation about Palestine not as like a gotcha, but because as a Palestinian person, I know nothing would be more convincing to my family than like, honestly talking about this. And none of my requests were sent in according to those surrogate gets. We. The most democratic thing you can do, in my opinion, big D and small D, is hold your team accountable. And that's why I want people to do the same for me. When people are like, I'm sorry, I was skeptical before, or they just come up to me and they're like, I'm skeptical of you now. I think that's good. You should be skeptical of people that are. By running for office, they are inherently asking for power. But the big thing here is the left isn't like a mess because of infighting. The. The left is a mess because one side keeps trying to push to the right and then punish the people that want to bring the center back to where it should be, where everyone can afford housing, groceries, and healthcare with money left over, where everyone has equal rights, and where billionaires and corporations are also held accountable. I do think, like the Supreme Court, for instance. I've had people kind of, you know, not love this answer, but I do think that should be a truly neutral body. Ideally, I'd like to see rot justices, but as far as, like, politics, we. If we're going to have two parties, and I would like there to be more. I like what, you know, Working Families party is doing with kind of like a Venn diagram and cross endorsements. I think that's a great way to get more power built. But if we're going to have two parties, they can't just be one party that is very clear in what it is, and that's fear and anger and hate and one party that's trying to be like a light version of the first one. And if we want to gain the trust of the American people as a Democratic Party, we need to do two things. We need to be willing to hold the party accountable. We got, like, a taste of this when Joe Biden was replaced by Kamala Harris. And there was like, three weeks where it felt like she was going to be a change candidate. And then it just. You had like, James Carville come on board, and then it just went downhill. And we need to be putting actions over words, using that money for the food banks and clinics I was talking about earlier. We need to be doing something and we need to be holding each other accountable and taking the right lessons from shit. This party is so bad at taking the lessons. You need the lessons for instance, of young men not voting for Democrats, it's not because we're not sexist enough. Young men want the same thing as everyone else. They want to have safe and happy lives for themselves and their loved ones. But society has been built, and Steve Bannon capitalized on this in the early 2010s depends on telling them, punishing them for being vulnerable, telling them their only value is their productivity, taking away the very things that would allow them to have that value of productivity. Being able to buy a house, being able to start a family, all of these things. And then telling them that it's actually not their fault. It's the fault of women and minorities and the woke left and the right capitalized on that early and that's why it's been effective. But we at our campaign, we have tons of young men that volunteer for us. We. One example I love to give on this is I asked people in our discord. I was like, does anyone want to help us build some shelves? And we had like eight dudes show up and they didn't even talk to me except for like a second. And they just built shelves for two hours. And it was just a safe place for them to exist. There were third spaces, they hung out, they did their thing, they ate some food and then they left. And, and I think all of them, except one, volunteer for us on a weekly basis and the other one moved somewhere else and does remote volunteering.
- [48:31]
A
So there's, there's two questions that I want.
- [48:33]
B
Thank you for letting me.
- [48:34]
A
No, I love it. No, there's two questions I want to hit on the last thing because it was one of the last things you touched on. I'll get to first and that is okay. So this immediately after the election, a lot of people talked about this. It's died down, but once the election gets closer, it's going to come back. Is there, do you have any mindset of how you get the young male voter? Like a lot of people threw out, like there were all these think pieces after the election. But to your point, you've kind of mentioned a way that the right was able to, to grab them. But is there a way to, to scoop back those people? I mean, I know that polling has shown some of the, you know, the first year hasn't been the most popular among young, young Trump voters. But do you have any thoughts there?
- [49:21]
B
You know, as material conditions worsen for people, you know, fascism is antithetical to the human condition. Fear will all will eventually always be outweighed by anger and pain. So those material harms will be felt and push people to look for another option. But I think the best thing you can do is be authentic and genuine in your values. Everyone, including young men, want leaders that actually believe in something and also go to where these demographics are counting on these votes or trying to manipulate them into voting for you. So, for instance, we organize all of our volunteers on Discord, which is a fantastic way to reach young people. But we also have, we have 80 year olds in our Discord that actively use it. We have events that people actually want to go to. It's not just the same cocktail hours over and over again with the same 20 people in there and some elected officials and some supporters. We make sure everything is accessible. So we've done punk shows, we've done comedy shows, we've done knitting circles, we've done board games nights. We, you know, try to make the way the campaign functions something that makes people actually want to get involved. And I think that is especially since COVID has made us even more isolated, which we already were. We live in a country where the only places you can exist without spending money are parks and libraries. But making politics a team sport where everyone wants to be involved, doesn't just help you reach young men, it helps you reach everyone. And I think that's really important.
- [50:51]
A
Do you think that there's a time in the play and a place regarding the criticism or the yelling at of candidates, like maybe more during a primary versus okay, that's the person that's most likely to not be in. Maybe in your mind, the big bad in an election. Like there's a time and place for the disagreements and the infighting and the chaos so that there can be a structure towards a best person to elect.
- [51:16]
B
I mean, you know, there's nuance in everything. I think that something that never works though, is yelling at people for trying to hold leaders accountable. We saw this a lot in 2024 about a variety of different issues. Trans rights, of course, Palestine. There were a lot of people that, you know, in the Arab community, but also the anti war community, people that were seeing their tax dollars that were struggling and their tax dollars going, going to bombing civilians that were like, what is going on to the Democratic Party? And then they were told to shut up and vote. And you know, I voted for Kamala Harris, but there were lots of people who didn't in my family. And I'm not sure I can blame them for that. And afterwards they were told, you know, either you ruined the election, you cost us the election. In which case that is a large enough demographic that you should have listened to them at least a little bit. Bit. Or we would have, and often. And we would have won this election without you, which means that they were too small to impact the effects of the election. So which is it? And it's like this idea where if Democrats aren't in power, you can't criticize them because we have to make sure that we can get power again. And then if we are in power, it's like, well, we're in power. We don't want to lose it, so you can't criticize us. So when do we make the party back better? Because it doesn't seem like there's an option between those two. There's a lot of talk of, like, waiting in line. It's this person's turn to run for office. We don't have to do this. We. You don't have to wait in line. There is no. This is a democracy, or at least it's supposed to be. No one should be anointed to a seat. And if you really think you can make things better, run the first chance you get. Do it the first chance you get. Don't wait years, don't wait decades for a position that you think you are owed because you're not. Elections are when people get hired and fired. This is a job interview. Treat it like one.
- [53:20]
A
And, Kat, as we're winding these things down or winding this interview down, I want to ask kind of a more general thing, because I love that statement there. But if you could say anything to the American people, people, what would you say? What? Whether it's about the country, the world. I'd love to hear.
- [53:35]
B
It doesn't have to be like this. We deserve good things. We're taught that we don't in America, that struggle is a value of virtue. And it's not. We're the richest country in the world. We can have better lives. Everyone can afford housing, groceries and health care with money left over to save and spend. Everyone can have equal rights. This is not a zero sum game. But billionaires are trying to convince you.
- [54:00]
A
You.
- [54:00]
B
That it is. You are not a means for Elon Musk's profit. You are not a means for Trump to have gilded ballrooms. You are a person. You have your own hopes and fears and traumas and loves and passions, and you deserve to be thought of that way by your representatives. You deserve representatives who represent you. And you deserve a government that is a government. It is not a business business. It is here to make life better. And we not only deserve that, but it's also possible.
- [54:33]
A
And Cat, last question. Would nine year old Cat be proud of you right now? And also, what do you think would surprise her the most?
- [54:40]
B
She'd be proud of me. She'd be really proud of me. I think she would be surprised that I'm running as a Democrat, but I think after talking with her, she would get it and she would probably have that metamorphosis earlier year. She'd be really excited. She'd like the colors in our campaign. We're a very colorful campaign. She would realize that all of the historical figures that she admired align a lot more with 26 year old cat than what 9 year old cat thought was the truth of the world. And she'd probably be like, you know, do we have touch screen stuff now? And I'd be like, yeah, it's like Star Trek, but kind of shitty here, but we're trying to make it less shitty. And then she'd be like, wow, you're cursing. We don't do that. And I'd say it's fine, calm down.
- [55:25]
A
That's the biggest change. Kat, thank you so much for the time.
- [55:29]
B
Thank you so much. This was a lot of fun.
- [55:30]
A
But that, dear listener, is the end of this conversation and podcast for today. If you're new here, definitely subscribe and follow. And if you enjoyed the episode, give it five stars on Spotify and Apple and give it a like on YouTube. Also, you know, leave a comment on what you agreed with, disagreed with or who you'd like to see next as a guest. But all that said, thank you for listening and I'll see you next week.