← In Good Faith With Philip DeFranco
In Good Faith With Philip DeFranco
The American Revolution & Presidential Scandals With Mr. Beat
01:05:30
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- [00:00]
A
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the In Good Faith podcast. My name is Philip DeFranco, and every week I'm talking to people I think are the most important and influential people in the world. And this week I spoke to Mr. Beat. Right. Mr. Beat is a former social studies teacher turned history YouTuber, now a fellow at the Robert J. Dole Institute of Politics at the University of Kansas. And he's also written books such as the Power Bar, Supreme Court. Today we covered a lot. We talked about if Trump is a laying duck, if he'll be impeached, how Epstein compares to other presidential scandals. And, you know, he really just answered all my questions I had about the American Revolution. Going to find that three fascinating.
- [00:28]
B
And also I think there are a lot of comparisons to things that we.
- [00:30]
A
See now in certain ways. But hey, buckle up and if you enjoy this episode, give it five stars on Spotify and Apple or give it a like on YouTube while you're at it. You know, leave a comment on what you agreed with, disagreed with, what you found interesting or who you'd like to see next as a guest.
- [00:41]
B
So, Matt, I, I gotta ask right, the. I feel like the past month, for the first time of Trump 2.0, it has felt like maybe closer to, I don't want to say normal presidency because there's so much that's not normal, but in the sense of does he, is he. Does he actually start to feel and is he a lame duck right now, or is that kind of just what people are telling themselves and maybe he's like more powerful and more dangerous than ever.
- [01:06]
C
Yeah, Lame duck is typically a phrase that is applied to people who are not reelected after election day. So just a short window between, like November to January, you know, when if you lose your re election and you're like, well, shoot, I have two months here. I'm just going to try to do as much crazy crap as I want. That's where the phrase comes from. And they used to actually have a longer lame duck period. It was to March for the presidency in particular. So from November to March. And that's when you saw all kinds of shenanigans with like, presidents were trying to like, get all their nominations in and there was a bunch of pardons. We saw that with Joe Biden, actually him pardoning his son Hunter during that lame duck period. So when I have heard this, though, like, this applied to Trump, but I just don't know if it really fits that well because we still have a long ways to go here. Yeah.
- [02:04]
B
And I don't Know, I think back to it felt like, well, there's probably, or there were numerous reasons. It felt like part of the whole thing was like he was like, I need to become president so I cannot be prosecuted. I need to be in like the, in control. I need to have power. And I don't know, I just, I feel like if there is, if there was ever a precedent that it's like I'm gonna try and do the most that I can and do it without Congress. Right. Because that's, that's usually like such a big aspect of it is like Congress kind of is going like, well, we're not gonna have to worry about your reelection. We need to see how you're impacting the party. I need to think about me. You've got usually. Right. It's like one or two years now. I mean, we're talking about this before even the midterms are coming around. So it's such a weird position. So I don't know, I've personally not given it a ton of weight because it almost feels, it feels in the realm of like when people are like, I don't see how he's getting out of this one. And it's like, find out next, next on the next week's episode, it's like, okay, that's how he got out of it.
- [03:07]
C
Yeah. Because for the most part the Republican Party still follows everything he does or says. I think the Epstein files release was a notable exception to that. So that's interesting. We could talk more about that if you want. But I think that it's kind of a signal of what's to come. But I think we still have a long ways to go. I think Trump's going to do a lot more stuff. We'll just say, yeah, I don't know.
- [03:31]
B
When I was thinking of like, okay, the so called, like defection from Trump on Epstein. And yeah, we were definitely going to dive more into the Epstein situation. But when I look at that, I mean, even there, I don't know, I was having a debate and I could see where other people are coming from with like Marjorie Taylor Greene. I was like, I do think that it is, it was notable, obviously very troubling in pretty much every other aspect. But I was like, there is something to be said that she stuck to her guns on the Epstein situation. Because, no, you never really see Republicans going against Trump. And then a year or two later you don't say former Congressman. And so I don't know, that feels singular. And yeah, I feel like you're Right. I feel like they're going to get in line for most everything else, at least before the midterms, but maybe, maybe the polling continues to drop. We'll. We'll see. I feel like more and more people have been talking about, you know, we can talk about all the data, but I feel like elections show us that it doesn't really matter unless people are also like, no, I'm personally feeling it, even if it's just like, I hate saying their lived experience because it's kind of seen as such, like this, a soft, soft, soft wording for like a percentage of the populace. But it truly is, like, if you don't feel it, then it's probably not real in your head.
- [04:54]
C
Yeah. And I think we do have better data in terms of the election results in November that at the time of recording this is few weeks ago. But I think that's a pretty good indicator that I think a lot of Republicans are like, okay, what are we going to do after Trump's gone here? Like, we need to have a plan for after. And I do think someone like Marjorie Taylor Greene is probably going to try to run for president in 2028. And so she's thinking that she's more running on ideology. She's the ideological wing of the Republican Party. People forget that they do have a distinct ideology, whereas most Republicans are bootlickers of Trump. They will just, they just want to stay in power. You know, they may not believe most of what he says, but they just wanted to say, yeah, he's great. So that's the difference. I think someone like Lauren Boebert or Marjorie Taylor Greene or Thomas Massie, those are three Republicans who have very strong distinct ideologies versus just, like, the pragmatism of trying to stay in power.
- [05:59]
B
That's so interesting. I've started hearing more and more people saying that, yeah, she is eyeing the presidency, but I feel like that's, that's impossible, right? Or, I mean, that's like, I can't, I can't imagine that because, like, even when, when I'm talking to, whether it be liberals or leftists or even, I mean, a lot of people that would call themselves centrists, it feels like there is such a limitation of, like, okay, but there's still all the other stuff. Maybe, maybe the two years, the two extra years before you would see someone, like, really running would, I don't know, change or maybe people forget, you know, people forget, but I can't see that. But also, I used to think that Newsom polling the way that he is for potential presidential run was short sighted because I saw so many people that consider themselves in the middle going, he's not, he's not really about it. He's a liar, he's a. And then what I've seen is not people saying, and this is so anecdotal, not saying that he isn't those things, but going, that's fine as long as he's not for the really bad stuff. I'm fine with that because apparently that's where politics are.
- [07:11]
C
Another great example of this is the different perception of George W. Bush now compared to 20 years ago. I mean, we're old enough to remember the Iraq war being extremely controversial and George W. Bush being an extremely hated president, very controversial. But now it seems that many Democrats are like, well, maybe George W. Bush wasn't so bad when we compare him to the chaotic situation we're in now. So it's all relative. I think that the same thing is, I think that the main thing is a lot of Democrats just think whoever we can throw at the Republicans to defeat them, to end this nightmare, we will do. If that's newsome, then we'll just suck it up because that's what the Republicans did. You know, a lot of Republicans did not like Trump even after he was elected in his first term. Many, there was the whole never Trumper movement that continued into his first term. They even, most of them finally came around, they said okay, fine, we'll just have to just deal with them and then wait it out.
- [08:13]
B
Yeah, I don't know, I could see that potentially. But it does feel like there's this ever growing wing of the party that is calling out Trump that they, they're and, and, and probably safely. So unless, I mean, because he's not, I don't, I don't think he's genuinely going to run for a third term. I don't think there's, there's that political will. What's funny is I think like if he had just kind of chilled and been like, you know what, I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep things semi regular. I'm not gonna do super, super crazy things. I think his polling would be so high that there is a world where they could maybe pull off some really, really crazy shit that there might be some political capital that said I, we're talking so far away that I don't have like, knock on wood.
- [08:58]
C
You just can't help himself though. He's such a bad president that he can't help himself. And I think it will still get worse. I know I said this last time when we talked, But I think 2026 is going to be even crazier. And I think that only after the midterms next year is what I predict. We'll see the Republican Party look back into the mirror and say, okay, maybe we, we like some of this populist stuff. Maybe we can kind of just start to ascend JD Vance to take his place, or they're going to look for a way to exit Trumpism.
- [09:36]
B
If it's Vance. I don't know. I mean, yeah, like, I think, I think it was a losing strategy for them to be like, he's just this, this weirdo. He's, he's a very, he's a very calculated man who kind of understands how to, to hit certain points, but none of it ever, outside of a clip, none of it feels real. So much of it feels like, okay, so I know that these talking points, I'm going to deliver it. I'm like, almost an act, like I'm an actor, but okay, so on the note of after the midterms, let's say Democrats, they get the majority in the House. Do you think we're in this situation where we're looking at another impeachment situation? And if so, does that actually benefit Democrats this round? Like almost completely separating the validity of the impeachment trial?
- [10:22]
C
Right. Because there's so many things you could impeach them on. I, I, that's a really good question. Because if, I mean, I assume they are probably going to impeach him again. You know, just pick whatever you want on the bingo card. And so once they figure that out, I think they're going to pick something that they can maybe sway a few Republicans their way especially. You got to, you got to look at what happens with the Senate elections in the midterms because it could go really better than people realize for the Republicans. Because Republican Party is kind of like you were saying earlier, if Trump really just had more like his first term and he didn't really shake things up too much, I think that his approval rating would be much higher. And I do think that the Republican Party could hold onto the Senate surprisingly easy. Now, the House was always in question, but this is typical for anytime a president's elected, usually two years later, the midterms, the, the opposite major political party takes over power in that, in, in Congress. So, but I think the way things are going, Republicans are going to lose the Senate, or you might have a couple Republicans in the Senate who are like, they're gonna, you know what? I will, I will go ahead and vote to remove him out of office just to review how it works, you know, and impeachment just means you're starting the investigation to see if the President actually committed the crime. The Senate, they are the judges that essentially decide the fate. And it's never happened before in American history, so it would. But I think especially if the trend keeps going as it is, where public pressures there, like his approval rating now I've seen some polls, it's below 40%, which is where it was at after January 6th. I do think that there would be momentum to impeach him this time and actually force him out of office, which J.D. vance, a lot of people are ready for. J.D. vance, I know he's. What does that look like? Who the heck knows? He is mysterious, like you said. But I think many Republicans are just like, okay, we're done with Trump now. Okay, bye, bye.
- [12:25]
B
Yeah, see, there's all that talk, but I just think that there is a portion. And you know what? Everyone's like such a political mover. You never know, you know where people are going to land. But I feel like there is this ever growing branch of the Fuentes and Tucker Light wing of the party that would just never embrace him. That would in their minds be like, no, maybe the country needs a different kind of pain so that they realize they have to let us not only in to the tent, but really to maybe take the reins. When I start thinking of like the multiple steps of, okay, what does another impeachment look like? It feels like that's where Donald Trump thrives, is being able to claim victimhood and being able to like play as like the systems coming after me. Even though the Epstein situation has shown he is the system. Yeah, he's, he's like where his own people are like, why is he doing this? Why? And I don't know. And even, even seeing all the Republicans then switch with him, obviously I think there were going to be a number that were like, hey, okay, now that the Epstein thing's happening and it's coming to a vote, we have to go this way. But. And I would have been very interested to see what that if he hadn't said, yeah, vote that way. Like the, it's almost like the equivalent of like, well, it's different. The him telling Mamdani it's okay to call him a fascist in front of the cameras. I don't know. It's so weird, so many weird things. So actually I do want to. I Want to go into the Epstein scandal just because of your background and expertise? I was interested. How do you think that the Epstein scandal compares to. And we can. This can be kind of two answers. Compares to the Teapot scandal, how does it compare to Watergate?
- [14:09]
C
Oh, Watergate too.
- [14:10]
B
Yeah.
- [14:10]
C
I mean, so there have been numerous scandals in American history revolving around the President. I think one of the most famous you mentioned, the Teapot Dome scandal, happened during the Warren Harding administration. His Interior secretary, Albert Fall, basically made a lot of money from petroleum reserves. So there were kickbacks, there were bribes. And it wasn't just fall, it was other fall, took the fall. But that's where that, I think that where that phrase comes from, believe it or not. But other members of his cabinet also got in trouble. And Harding was known as a corrupt guy himself. He knew all kinds of stuff was going. I mean, he was actively breaking the law during Prohibition. He was like getting alcohol snuck into the White House so they could have poker parties. You know, so that was, that's one aspect. Like that's. And then of course, Nixon was clearly a corrupt guy as well with Watergate. I mean, that was covering up the fact that he, the Democratic Party operatives working for him when he ran for reelection in 1972 were breaking in and stealing information to use against the Democratic Party. And he later lied about it and fired people who wouldn't lie for him. But all that feels so tame, doesn't it? These, I mean, like Watergate is not. There's like a Watergate a day in the Trump administration. And then there are other scandals. The Credit Mobil scandal is something that I always have a hard time saying any French words. But that was a scandal during the Ulysses Grant administration. The difference of that one was I think Ulysses Grant himself was not a corrupt president, but his friends were. And back then though, that was when we still had the spoils system or the winner takes the spoils, which means whoever wins the presidency, you get to pick all your buddies to be in your cabinet or in your administration. We got rid of that after Grant because of all the corruption. So later with James Garfield, who's. There's a show called Death by Lightning just came out on Netflix. I highly recommend Chester Arthur and other presidents after that began having a merit based system saying, oh, only people that are qualified. So but guess what's happening now? We're going back to the spoil system. We have all just the, the Trump loyalists that are working around him. That was not the case in his first term. And so that means, I think I predict another prediction for you. We're gonna find even more corruption this time around. We think it's corrupt now. I think we're gonna be for decades finding out like they were doing. What. I just think we're all so numb to it in the moment here. We're just so like, like I said, a Watergate every day that we're just. I don't think we're truly comprehending how ridiculously insane these times we are living in are. We will eventually, but it's hard when you're in the moment. This is crazy. These are crazy times in terms of American politics.
- [17:27]
A
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- [18:20]
B
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- [18:33]
B
I was gonna go into something else, but you mentioned it. Did you like. So you said you liked Death by Lightning. Is it, is it pretty accurate, would you say? I want. I just watched. I finished it the other night.
- [18:42]
C
Oh, awesome. You saw it. Nice. Yeah, Yeah. I don't think it's. I mean most shows are not historically accurate that much. They got a few things wrong that I, you know, I read the book that it was based off of and even little details like, come on, Garfield freed Kentucky, not Tennessee. Get this, these basic facts, right? That all aside, I think it's one of the best shows on, on right now on Netflix. I highly recommend it. It's so much freaking fun, man. Like I. It gets people interested, which to me is more important, obviously. Like just get them interested in history and then they can do the, the research into the actual facts later on.
- [19:21]
B
You know, is there someone else that you think that they should jump on? So it's like, I feel like a lot of Americans weren't aware of Hamilton. Then the Hamilton musical comes out. I think James Garfield very much a footnote as far as a lot of American history. All of a sudden abigate made me more hyper aware. It's a dumb thing, but it's like, I feel like I'm more knowledgeable of like certain times of international history than our own American history. So I'm just like, oh, that was enlightening. Is there, is there someone you think that needs to get the spotlight next?
- [19:53]
C
Yeah, there are so many. I mean, I could give you so many possibilities as far as presidents. Andrew Jackson is by far the most interesting president we've ever had. Just the fact that he got involved in duels and he's the only president to just straight up murder people. At least Trump hasn't done that so far.
- [20:12]
B
Well, I mean, there might be another country that would like to have a word with you.
- [20:16]
C
True, true. Well, you can make the argument that every president going back to FDR was a war criminal.
- [20:21]
B
How dare you? Yes.
- [20:22]
C
Yeah, but, yeah, as far as like, less known figures, Victoria Woodhull is one of my favorites. Sure. She's the first woman to officially run for president, even though at the time women could not vote basically anywhere except for maybe Wyoming. And she's like, I'm going to run for president. And she was a, she was pretty fascinating character, like, because very outspoken and kind of like, was not afraid of anyone. So I think she'd be a good story.
- [20:51]
B
I love that. Jumping back to the, the Epstein scandal with where we are right now, we're gonna try and knock this out same day. How big do you think the scandal actually is with, with where we are and like him actually having to sign the bill?
- [21:07]
C
I think that this is something that is gonna stick around for a long time. I think it will make the history books because it's symbolic of the populous times that we live in. I think that we, in the future, I know we always joke around about horseshoe theory and I think mostly horseshoe shoe theory is whack that. Oh, the far left and far right have a lot more in common than differences. What it really is, I think, is populism and populism. It can be a good thing, it can be a bad thing. But in terms of good thing, I think there's a lot of people that are united, regardless of political party allegiance or ideology, that they're united against the so called elites, whatever you define that as. And I think the Epstein files, that is the thing that best represents that. That's the only issue where you can like check the polling and it's like 90, 95% of Americans agree. Release the files. Holy crap. In these divided times, that's the thing that. So I think there's really, I think folks like Marjorie Taylor Greene are noticing, hey, maybe that's a way I can kind of. I mean it's. I compare Marjorie Taylor Greene to actually, to someone like George Wallace in American history. He was another populist in the 1960s. Sure, he was racist. Later he became much less racist, by the way, I should say he changed. But he, but he. In the 60s, yeah, he kind of ran on this racist platform. But the reason why he had more votes, like he won electoral votes for a lot of states and the reason why he had broader support is because he tapped into this populism that just. And you know, I think most people kind of at least are like, yeah, I can kind of vibe with that. I mean, you know, like get the. Yeah, there are, there's the old George Carlin quote, it's a big club, but you ain't in it, you know, and people can relate to that generally. So I, I think that's the direction she's going. And I think someone like on, on the left side of the spectrum, aoc, Alexandria Ocasio, Cortez, Heck, yeah, she's, she's tapping into that populism right now. And Epstein files that this pulls it all together. That's going to be the thing that unites many Republicans and Democrats.
- [23:19]
B
Well, that, that is something I was thinking of again. I mean, I constantly bring up that there are a number of AOC voters that are Trump voters. It was something that came up when Mamdani met with Trump, that there are a number of people that voted for both of them, even though you would think that they're so drastically different and that affordability and yeah, cost of living and quality of life are such big issues. And you know, Trump talked about that and then it also makes me think, you know, would the Epstein situation be so big for his base still, or at least a chunk of it, if the economy was, like, thriving right now, if it didn't feel like the cost of things were going up and people were getting paid better? Do you have any feelings to that? I mean, or thoughts on that?
- [24:02]
C
I agree that it would not be. Populism would not be rising if not for the economy being so out of whack right now. And it's mostly wealth inequality, specifically because there's a lot of wealth in this country, but it's just so concentrated at the top. And it's been like this at least since the Great Recession, but it's just worse now than it's been ever even going back to the Gilded Age. I keep telling people this. If you look at the Gilded Age wealth concentration of the 1880s, 1890s, it wasn't as bad as it is today. That's a big freaking deal. That's something that should be brought up all the time. I know you've had other guests that have also brought this up. Yeah. Like, this is no wonder Mamdani had such broad support in New York City, because that's what everybody's constantly thinking about. Yeah.
- [24:56]
B
I don't know. I mean, this is so, like, besides where I want the conversation to go, but it's just having anyone to talk about it with. I do wonder what support from Hamdani looks like in a year, because I don't know. When I. When I look at him and how he's. He was handling Trump and navigating that situation, I see someone that, I'm like, oh, this is, this is like a top tier politician. He's. He's figuring out how to navigate things. But there is kind of some of that chirping that you're hearing from one of the sides that it's like, oh, he was just all talk, like he should have, like. Like, the thought is that he should have, like, kicked in the door to the White House and like, pointed a finger in Trump's face and been like, down with the fascists. And I was like, I just. I don't know, it felt. And so I wonder what portion of his support are people like that or if that's just chirping on the Internet.
- [25:43]
C
He's a great politician. I mean, all great politicians are good at communication. That's how they gain power and how they convinced people to vote for them. And. But more importantly to this context, it's how they get along with Other politicians. Mamdani knew that, you know, it would be pointless just to go in there and lecture the President. You gotta smoosh them. You gotta. Sweet. I mean everybody knows that Trump likes one on one. If you're just sitting there being nice to him and complimenting him, he's gonna like think you're the greatest person ever. And that's what he did.
- [26:17]
B
Yeah, I'm very fascinated. I'm very fascinated to see where that goes. But Matt, I want to go back to history because I'm getting more and more into it. It's such a big focus for you. Have you watched the Ken Burns documentary? And if so, how is it? Because I've heard actually different things. But I'm going to start probably sometime on this trip.
- [26:37]
C
Yeah, I watched the first episode. I'm a fan of Ken Burns. Obviously he's someone who inspired my own videos. But I think part of the problem is what people like have been criticizing him for various reasons. But for me my biggest thing is like you're trying to get younger people interested in history. You gotta condense it, buddy. You gotta. You can't have like 10 hour long documentary.
- [27:07]
B
That's Ken Burns Tick Tock channel. You're like, come on, Ken.
- [27:11]
C
I mean there are clips, but even then like it's a much slower paced thing and. But there's a lot of people saying, oh, this is too woke or whatever. Have you heard those criticisms? No.
- [27:22]
B
Wait, what is the criticism?
- [27:23]
C
That, oh, you're getting too many perspectives from, I guess, for lack of a better way of putting it, non traditional characters. In the American Revolution we typically hear from, you know, the generals on the battlefield or the politicians. I mean that's bringing the perspectives of slaves or Native Americans or women to apparently is woke, I guess has been a criticism. That's ridiculous.
- [27:51]
B
Well, that's like, that's like the whole crackdown that we're seeing from certain people on the right for history. They're like, this is, this is about guilting people. And I'm like, here's the thing, I'm not gonna feel guilty for something that I wasn't a part of. But we need to be aware of how like other people's experiences to fully understand the situation. I don't understand how that is. It's so. It's also so annoying that that woke has become this derogatory term for being thoughtful about other how how like things are impacting people that don't look like you. It's fucking bananas to me.
- [28:26]
C
But anyway, well, and also I think I struggle with this because I. My channel is predominantly American political history. Well, that's mostly white dudes.
- [28:36]
B
Okay.
- [28:36]
C
It's very difficult for me. And mostly it's white dudes that watch my channel. So I'm just like, if I want to make a video about any female or any person of color, I feel like it's like, it stands out more like. And it shouldn't be that way. It shouldn't freaking be that way, but it is. And sad to say, like, if I do release a video about Jane Addams, who I think was really important figure during the Progressive era, which I did release a video a few years ago, it tanked. Very few people watched it. I'm. That's why. I know this sounds bad, but a lot of times I'm releasing videos about presidents because that's what gets views, that gets people reeled in, and then you can kind of teach them other lessons. Oh, you. Oh, you're here for George Washington. Okay, well, guess what? Here's. This also happened, you know, so it's. It's tough because, you know, Ken Burns doesn't have to worry about this. PBS gives him that sweet money. But me on YouTube, I feel like I'm kind of trapped into, like, covering a bunch of old white dudes that are on the. On money in order to get people to click on the video.
- [29:42]
B
That's so funny. I never thought that for your channel you'd have to do, like, something I used to do more heavily on my channel was like, here's your. Here's like, the dessert, and then I'm going to sneak in vegetables of, like, here's the pop culture news. Here's. I never thought that there would be a version of that for you, but that's. That is. That's so interesting. So, I mean, I don't know, does that make you think a certain way about your audience? I don't know. That's. That's interesting.
- [30:06]
C
Well, my audience is pretty smart and very, very handsome. But I will say, like, it's okay. It's just kind of the game we're in. And you know better than anyone, I think there are times when I decide, say, screw it. I'm just going to release this, a video about an obscure Supreme Court case, which I did, and it tanked as well. But it does reach a certain audience. A lot of my videos still are like, teachers force them upon their students and so, like, captive audience. You're going to watch this and learn, you know? But, yeah, I do. I do constantly struggle with that. Because, you know, I still got to pay the bills, and so, like, I can't. I mean, that's why it's always good to fall back on presidential stuff.
- [30:47]
B
I mean, yeah, I would. Obviously, you. You got your game plan. I would implore you to maybe even treat it like directors, where they're like, one for you, one for me sort of thing. Like, I feel like. I feel like. Because. Yeah, because if you just start making stuff for other people, then that's the quickest way I've seen people going like, I don't like this job anymore. I don't know. I mean, that's. That was a big part of me as I was like. I started hitting this point where I was like, it feels like I'm almost incentivized to either talk about certain things or, like, kind of shut up about other things. And that doesn't feel good for me. There's no way I'm going to continue like a shell of my. My, My show. But I also will say we need channels like yours, because for the longest time as a young man, my. My understanding of who Ken Burns was is he was an imovie effect.
- [31:39]
C
Oh, that's right. It comes up as on imovie.
- [31:42]
B
The Ken Burns effect. When I was starting editing, I. Oh, okay. I see what it does. Thanks, Ken Burns, for coming up with that motion. No, also, what a dumb purse. I didn't even Google who's Ken Burns. Like, I had to just find out later in life and be like, oh, this is very fascinating, but on the note of learning, I mean, what. What lessons? And there's probably so many. So let. We can. Let's do a top three A podium lessons. Do you think Americans need to relearn from the American Revolution?
- [32:12]
C
Oh, so I think it was more. The first lesson is it was way more than just taxes. It was really the whole. Enlightenment. Enlightenment. So when we talk about the Enlightenment, we're talking about a period that started in Europe, places like England and France, and then spread everywhere. Ideas like liberty and reason and secularism and just like tolerance, justice, equality. I mean, these are all things we take for granted. And so I think because we take them for granted, we don't think deeply about where they come from. And that's under attack right now. Many Enlightenment ideals I think we're seeing around the world are under attack. But that was. The American Revolution is a big reason why Enlightenment ideals continue to spread into. Not just like, it wasn't just a movement, it was like these. They became entrenched in institutions okay, that's one. You wanted three.
- [33:19]
B
If there's. If. I mean, if we know who's at number one. So I just. I never want to limit someone because sometimes you're like, what's your favorite movie? And you're like, that's impossible.
- [33:28]
C
Right?
- [33:28]
B
It's like, yeah. So it's like, I guess the. What's your favorite movie of the American Revolution?
- [33:35]
C
No. I mean, yeah, like, that really is a. I guess you could break down each ideal. You know, you can say, well, how about this?
- [33:44]
B
I'll switch it into something else. What is something you wish more people knew about the American Revolution?
- [33:48]
C
That it was not that big of a revolution in the beginning. In fact, it was just a small group of people that kind of got things started. And many of them were in Boston, Massachusetts. Many of them were kind of crazy people, like Sam Adams, I think he. He was kind of a crazy son of a mother. But then you had people like Thomas Paine, who I think is underrated in American history. Thomas Paine, he was the. The one who got these ideas into the mainstream. Like, after Thomas Paine wrote Common Sense was his book that it was short, it was accessible, anybody could read it, and it provided a plain and easy case for independence from Britain. And in a short span of time, just a few months, he was able to change many Americans minds and get a lot of. When I say Americans, you know, at the time, that whole idea of being called an American was still new. But just the fact that he convinced a lot of people in the colonies that, hey, we are our own distinct people that ought to be separate from England. And it made people question their identity, which is crazy. So that. That power that he had to persuade people with common sense, I think is definitely not looked at enough.
- [35:10]
B
So, Matt, then another qu. Another question here. Why do you think the American Revolution has been so sanitized? Right? Because when I look back when I was growing up, right, it was like Paul Revere. It's like, the British are coming. You hear, I don't know, all these, like, really, like, passionate speeches. But it was like the American Revolution was a place where it was like. It was a civil war at home. You had Loyalists being hung. You had colonists killing and assaulting local British officials. There was lots of mob violence, burning of effigies, very bloody war. I feel like when we think of, like, bloody American wars, we think of civil war, but it was very. It was very. I mean, like, all wars horrific. And so do you feel like we have sanitized it, or am I I don't know, just kind of. No, I haven't looked or I haven't, I haven't had a different education on it.
- [35:58]
C
I don't know if sanitize is the right word, honestly. I think, I think oversimplification is the better way. Because you mentioned Paul Revere. I mean, that dude wasn't even that important. But the only reason why we talk about Paul Revere is because there was a freaking poem that was written about him a few years later that was really popular. Yeah, I actually have a video called Paul Revere Was Overrated.
- [36:21]
B
You're the only one that looks at Paul Revere as an op. You're like, nah, no, no.
- [36:25]
C
Yeah, it's so weird how certain figures just get way more attention than others. But yeah, like, I just think I'm glad that this documentary is out. I know I was like talking trash about how long it is and slow paced it is, but it's good to have all this nuance for the first time. There's another great YouTube channel called Atunshy Films who. He basically sums up a lot of the points that Ken burns makes in 30 minutes versus 10 hours that I highly recommend. But yeah, it tackles a lot of those misconceptions and just adds a lot of nuance that needs to be added to pretty much every historical event, really.
- [37:05]
B
Let me, let me ask you a fun, insane question. Do you agree with Ken Burns that the American Revolution is the most important moment in human history since the birth of Christ?
- [37:14]
C
Oh, he did say that, didn't he? Yeah, I don't, I don't want to just fully agree with that, but I see his point. Yeah, right. And the birth of Christ, I mean, you could even say, well, hold on, if you're going to go that, if you're going to say stuff like that, then why don't you just go back to like the birth of written language or something, the invention of writing or the. I don't know, I think the, there's a better case to make that technological advance is more impactful than any one series of events, you know, because if, you know, the French Revolution happened a short time after the American Revolution, people say, well, that would not never have happened if not for the American Revolution. Really? Is that. How do you know? Like, because a lot of the same patterns were happening in different parts of the world at the same time. The bigger trend is how communication got around. I always say, like, I actually wrote this in a document on my phone the other day because I was like, oh, I should Bring that up in a video. But like there's just been different eras based on new inventions, communication inventions, like starting with the printing press, big, big development, later on the telegraph, telephone, mass communications, TV and radio, later the Internet. I mean, these things I think are much more impactful than any revolution because those revolutions don't happen without those technological innovations. So.
- [38:46]
B
Okay, so let's, let's continue down this road of like overrated or underrated. So George Washington, right, fires the first shot in the, in the seven year, seven years war, kind of like a world war. Then the British crown raises taxes on colonists to pay for that war and Washington leads the rebellion against those taxes for, you know, as overplayed as the great men of history theory is, is it true of Washington? Is Washington, do you think he's, he's undervalued as far as like a man of history?
- [39:22]
C
I don't think he's undervalued, but he is my favorite president. I think the most important figure in American history, undoubtedly. And it's more because he's like a symbol these days. Even he, even during his time, he had become a symbol. Sure. He was pivotal in, you know, in certain moments. He was a great leader that brought people together that otherwise would not come together. He's was, you know, he's the one who led the Continental Army. Before the Continental army, you had ragtag groups of. They were not united in resisting British rule. So yeah, the fact that there's going to be a 500 foot sculpture of him apparently built. I don't know if you read this. No, I think Washington gets a lot of respect. He's definitely, probably, maybe a little over hyped up. I say that as a Washington fan, but I think the better way to think about it is like if there was no Washington. I know I generally hate alternate history, but maybe this is an exception. What if George Washington never existed? Kind of like what if George Bailey didn't exist and it's a wonderful life. You just. I think that things would have gone dramatically differently. He was the right person for the right moment. We got lucky. The United States was extremely lucky because you look at all these other revolutions that have happened and things didn't turn out so great. You had just a new dictator take over and more chaos and more wars down the road. We've had a pretty stable country overall ever since Washington.
- [40:55]
B
We'll get right back to the pod in a minute. But first let me say, you know.
- [40:58]
A
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B
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A
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B
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B
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A
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- [42:04]
B
Yeah, I mean, okay, connected to that. I mean, do you think like the French Revolution scared Jefferson maybe than like more than he was willing to admit or is kind of talked about?
- [42:14]
C
Look at your knowledge, man. Yeah, you know this stuff. I like this a little bit.
- [42:17]
B
Little bits of peace.
- [42:18]
C
Yeah, definitely. Jefferson was a fan of the French Revolution, but it did get kind of crazy, you know, with the hysteria and the. Just the executions driven by paranoia, folks like Robespierre. I mean, you had a revolution that got out of hand very quickly. And I think the difference with the United States was you had. But yeah, Washington was that kind of moderating influence. And the most, the biggest reason why is because he was not power hungry. He twice stepped down, retired. He just wanted to go back to his farm. The first time, after the war was over, he's like, okay, I'm gonna retire now. Even though he could have just been emperor right at that moment. And then later on after he was president, you know, reluctantly, he joined politics. He did not want to become president, but everybody was like, well, who else is gonna do it? And then he's, he is president. And he's like, no, I am retiring. He could have easily stayed in there the rest of his life. He easily could have been a king. Yeah.
- [43:23]
A
I don't know.
- [43:23]
B
I often wonder if kind of what we see is always kind of young radicals that. That end. I don't know. I don't know if it's through the experience or through.
- [43:34]
A
Through what?
- [43:34]
B
It seemed to kind of calm down. I don't know. I mean, talking about Jefferson, Right. Jefferson's letters, he seems kind of like this. This young, idealistic, young radical, you know, he's even for. I think. I think. Does he? Does he. So I always get torn on this. So you're more of the expert here. Did he, like, fiercely oppose slavery? But then didn't he have a ton of slaves? So I'm. Yeah. And then, like, I don't know. Yeah. Can you enlighten me there? So you were saying, oh, you know something? I was like, I feel like there's conflicting stuff, that it's not connecting in my brain.
- [44:10]
C
No, that's. That's absolutely right. Thomas Jeffrey Jefferson had more slaves than any other president in American history, and he did not free them upon his death. And he had a relationship with one of them. He had several children with one of them. And so, yeah, not a good guy in terms of who he was as a person. But I think we remember Jefferson's words more than we remember him as a person. Like, because what he. His ideals, what he thought we ought to be is like, what we still continue to aspire to be. And so Jefferson's tough. I mean, people. Yeah, people say that he's evil for what he did, and I get it. But we can still take away the words that he wrote down that were so incredibly ahead of his time. Like, it's, you know, you say radical. He was radical for his time. Like, stuff that we do take granted for granted, like that. What I was mentioning earlier, the Enlightenment ideals, he encapsulated all of that, and he made sure that they would be a part of this new government that we were forming and part of the new Constitution. Yeah.
- [45:15]
B
Especially when it gets into, like, the war of words. Part of, like, me asking you, like, are there certain lessons to be learned? Because I start getting into the hypothetical, right? I think I start asking questions from the little that I've seen of, like, why, like. And I'll ask you, you know, why do you think that the British never tried to gag? Like, Sam Adams, Ben Franklin, Thomas Paine? Like, was it because they saw them as kind of gnats and it was like, beneath them or like it was nothing to even be worried about because I don't know, there is potentially an argument that if they had cracked down sooner and harsher that maybe they would have been able to stop America.
- [45:57]
C
I don't think they realized how big the resistance was, even though it was fairly small. And it was like, I get it, but also, like, just the logistics of it. That giant ocean between England and the colonies, it took months to get to cross that ocean. So it's hard to control people around the world even today.
- [46:17]
B
Yeah, I mean, it's not a new thought, but yeah, it is very interesting that based off of where we were technologically, there was a sweet spot of where something like that would be possible. You have the technology to get there, but there is still such a limitation that it is this just like, untamable thing. Okay, so then with kind of that. That understanding of it's really hard to stop it, I was interested. How true is it that Sam Adams was like, spreading. Spreading conspiracy theories and disinformation intentionally?
- [46:48]
C
It wasn't just him. Paul Revere did as well. Yeah. Ben Franklin is the king of misinformation. He, like, he was spreading fake news all the time. Yeah, like, that's what I always tell people. The era we're living in now is. That's not new. Like, I think the difference now is more and more people are just believing it, whereas I think, yeah, we got to think critically about the information we consume. But yeah, they. That's. They were very persuasive with their. I mean, most of the time they just exaggerated. Like, Boston Massacre is a great example of that. How you probably have in your head the famous image of it. Paul Revere was a big reason why that image spread across the colonies because he owned a printing press. And Ben Franklin as well. He was just somebody who was able to communicate well and then. Yeah. Often exaggerated.
- [47:45]
B
Yeah. It kind of makes me think of, like, does that mean, like, if times were different, like, they'd have Twitter accounts that are like, George is a clown or like, Orege is a clown. And it's like, defeat the monarchy. And then it makes. It makes me wonder about, oh, the future from here. Are we gonna have history books that are like, it all started because this account was started on Twitter that spread misinformation and it was the spark that was needed to. To do some new crazy thing. It's. I don't know. I. I wonder if there is. There are concerning lessons to be. To be learned. I mean, we Talked about. I use the word sanitize for the American Revolution. I know you were like, I wouldn't say it's that it's simplification, but it does feel like there's a lot that's always sanitized. I think back to, like, the civil rights movement. I feel like that's been sanitized so much to, to be like, you know, the peaceful protest won. And it's like, well, there was so much violence that. That made people go like, okay, let's, let's, let's talk about the peaceful protest. I don't know. And so I get really nervous from a lot of the lessons because it feels like a lot of lessons from history is like, that bad things have to happen.
- [48:59]
C
Yeah. I think that.
- [49:02]
B
Well, look at 20 also just throwing this in. I'm not calling for that.
- [49:05]
C
Yeah, right. May be inevitable, But I think 20. 20 is a recent, fascinating year in American history in terms of. Of course, there was chaos. Of course, there were a lot of protests with. After what happened with George Floyd. But you notice that most of the post protests were peaceful. But what got the attention was the crazy block in Portland. And even to this day, the president still has that in his mind. He's thinking that that's happening right now, and it's not. I think you made a really good point. It doesn't matter what the broader trend is. It matters what we focus on. And historians have to constantly worry about this. I do worry because of the unique times we live in. Some people call it the information age, I call it the misinformation age, because maybe I'm more cynical. But the fact is there's so much information out there right now. And so in the future, how are historians going to dissect all that, analyze all that, evaluate all that, choose what stories are told? And again, it's always the problem, too, of, like, the people who, you know, this is cliche, but winners write history. Those in power write history. That's why Howard Zinn was such a big deal when he came out and told the stories of people who typically didn't have their stories told because they didn't have power historically.
- [50:29]
B
Yeah. I mean, looking back and forth, like when we're comparing and contrasting historic events to where we are now. Do you think the Founding Fathers would look at the way that we do elections and go like that makes sense, or would they find it inherently corrupt?
- [50:45]
C
I think most of them would find it inherently corrupt. Yeah. They. I mean, for starters, gerrymandering was something that many of them probably didn't anticipate getting out of control. Like this representation is, is not very good right now and was never supposed to be this bad. That's the, I mean, they didn't want direct democracy. Don't get it twisted. Like, they were terrified of just direct pure democracy, but at the same time, we don't even have representative democracy anymore. I think a lot of people argue that, so that would definitely trouble, I think, many of the founders.
- [51:24]
B
What is, what do you think the argument is against direct democracy? Is it that there almost needs to be a timeout period where it's like, okay, well if the people really feel this strongly, then they'll elect people a certain way and so there will be a slowdown and so it's like a portion of checks and balances or. I don't know. What do you, what is the argument there?
- [51:44]
C
We're just too dang emotional, you know, like, like people are. Yeah, we, that's a good thing that I think we're emotional creatures, you know, but at the same time, yeah, like you said, there needs to be that timeout period for some things because, you know, you don't want to make a decision that's can bite you in the butt. And that's why also, like demagogues are really good at manipulating people. And because of that, yeah, they tap into our emotions and we don't really think logically about what the actual consequences are going to be. And that's why, yeah, many people who say, okay, you can have democracy, but there needs to be at least some kind of buffer there to kind of limit democracy with that.
- [52:29]
B
You know, of all the founders then, who do you think would be kind of like most at home or fit in the best in 2025?
- [52:36]
C
Probably Thomas Paine. Just because he's, he was, he was, I mean, he was an atheist and I think that's, that's a big part of it. Like he was somebody who was extremely radical for back then, but now he'd be, you'd find him on any Reddit post. You know, like most of them were pretty religious, actually. I know that we were founded as a secular country, but we also have to acknowledge that most of the founders were Christian devout Christians. So I do think we're much less religious country now. Actually, I think I used a clip of you in my video when I went over every single religion and every religion of every American president, there was a clip I found of yours where you were talking about that general trend of how more like more Americans now are non religious. Than ever before. So. Yeah, that's a fun one.
- [53:34]
B
Is that still trending that way? Because I. I've seen people saying that it's like, oh, young people are going back. But then I've also seen people say. Say that. That I have. This is a situation I haven't done dove into because it wasn't the most interesting to me, but I think it is interesting. Are young people bringing it back or. No, that's being overstated. Do you know?
- [53:52]
C
A little bit. Yeah. There. I mean, there's some, like, Gen Z, I think, is. Is not as less religious as, like, say, millennials were, but it's still the trend overall. It's still in that direction. It's just slowed down.
- [54:04]
B
It felt like it was part of maybe like this, like the move or that. Yeah, the move we saw over, like, the last few years of people kind of going like, oh, it's almost counterculture to go to traditional. A traditional mindset, whether it be traditional home, traditional values, traditional religion. And so I didn't know how. How wide widespread that was because it does. It does feel like when times are hard, it increases the likelihood that people will gravitate towards something that brings a group together.
- [54:32]
C
Absolutely. Yeah. So there's that argument as well. But both of those. I think the. I don't know why it is, but I do think that part of it is a lot of younger people are. They just don't have much hope for the future, and so it's easier to turn to the spiritual realm, for sure.
- [54:55]
B
So, Matt, I know that you keep saying I'm so cynical, but I know that there is an optimist in there based off of our last chat. So what is. What is. What is there to be optimistic from this moment? And then, you know what? We'll come back together next year and we'll see how much of it was misplaced or hopeful rather than realist realistic. But where's some optimism right now? And you get anywhere for American life, American youth, whoever.
- [55:22]
C
I mentioned this earlier, but I do think that this rising populism that we see, regardless of party affiliation and ideology, just a lot of people coming together to recognize that the game is rigged and it's like the Hunger Games, kind of like some people get in, like. Like, you and I are lucky enough to, like, burst through and, like, have success, but most people don't really have the same opportunities compared to previous generations. That's the difference. I think we compare our lives to our parents and our grandparents. When we look at all the prosperity between the 19 between World War II and the 1970s. The main, I think, thing to look at is social mobility, economic mobility. So your ability to like, start. Maybe you're born poor, but then you're able to like, become a millionaire. Those. Statistically, it's. It's harder for that to happen in 2025 compared to that era. My hope is that stuff like that recognizing that this is actually, this is based on class. This is not. We've been focusing so long on culture stuff, culture war stuff, social issues. Now I think a lot of people are coming together on class issues. That. And that gives me hope because, you know, we can all, I think, come together on certain things that would make us all have a better chance at prosperity. And yeah, Marjorie Taylor Greene, shout out to her again. Maybe she's an example of that.
- [56:55]
B
I know I have big shout outs of Bart Retaylor Greene, but my, my co host of my other podcast, Crashing, I was going to see Shout out to Marjorie Taylor Green. He's going to. His. His head's gonna explode. He's gonna go, what the fuck? This is what you're doing. It's not what we're doing.
- [57:10]
C
It was.
- [57:10]
B
It's not what he meant. I know.
- [57:14]
C
You're great.
- [57:15]
B
Yeah. I do wonder, regarding the class stuff, I do wonder how effective it'll be because it felt like in the aftermath of, of Kirk, it felt like Trump and other Republicans were able to more effectively try to separate other situations like the Luigi Mangioni thing into left versus right, rather than a kind of a class war sort of situation. And it seemed somewhat effective. But I also have to always, when I look to social media, remember, this can give me an insight. But it is also incredibly prone for manipulation, which I don't know if you have any thoughts on, on this. Um, have you, have you been seeing the. The. The big Twitter update where you can see where accounts were created and like just the crazy fighting that's been happening around it. It's been so fascinating.
- [58:03]
C
But it doesn't surprise us, right? I mean, we knew that a lot of this stuff was coming from foreign agents.
- [58:09]
B
Like, I think being. Being able to see it. It's one of those things where it's like where Elon Musk accidentally. I don't know if he realizes it accidentally scores like an own goal against himself where, where he likes. Because. Because it's like actually very insightful to be like, oh, okay. This is not just someone going. If it feels off, it's kind of like where it's like someone would Say something and you have people doing the. I want. What is it, three shots or whatever that meme from that movie where it's like, he's not doing it like that, where. Yeah, so. But I wonder if it actually impact long term if this is going to impact the effectiveness of those channels. I hope so because it's like they're trying to puppeteer Americans and that should make us. That should make you angry, like just because they're saying things. And if anything it should also make you question things. If it was kind of the same thing of like when it was outed that a lot. A number of channels on YouTube, primarily right wing channels. And I, I'm not even gonna say that they knew where the money was coming from, but like that they're getting money from foreign groups. It makes you. I'd hope that it would make people question, well, why would they give those creators money? Why would they want to support those messages? And it's because it, it creates, it creates more and more infighting and chaos and when we're chaotic, we're a weaker country.
- [59:32]
C
Absolutely. Yeah. I think sadly we don't follow the money enough. We say we do. Oh yeah, just follow the money, man. Big pharma. But yeah, but are you following the money everywhere? Because clearly there are foreign governments that like us divided and it's pretty easy to divide us with certain issues on social media and it only takes a few accounts to get something trending. So that's the other thing. That's, that's why I still think what we said last time, like just logging off these social media accounts could probably help more than anything.
- [60:07]
B
That's why you should only watch our videos and then log off and then, yeah, we'll see you in the next upload. Just turn notifications on.
- [60:14]
C
Keep shooting ourselves in the foot. I know this. I, we.
- [60:16]
B
No, no, no. This is, I'm not, I'm not saying it sarcastically. I, well, I'm saying it a little sarcastically, but I think it's why to your point, when you're like, you got to condense it. I think it's also because not only for, for attention spans, but it's like, dude, people are just trying to survive. Like, you know, yeah, we could. People like can have those moments where they're, they're binging, but I don't know, it's. At certain points it sometimes feels, it would feel elitist to a certain degree to be like, how are you not aware? And it's like, homie, some people are working two, three jobs Just to survive. I was like, the news is about them, right? They're just. They're like, the news is about the struggle. And so I don't know, I get it. But so my big thing is. Yeah, I feel like we're trying to create these at least. It's part of the reason I talk so fast on my main show. I'm trying to make this very dense, nutrient rich thing so people can understand it and then get on with their lives and it not be part of a chef's menu. 20 course meal of news, just degrading. What's breaking down your brain. So that's. So I say that a little sarcastically, but also expand your mind, but also limit how much you're taking in because it can destroy you. But, Matt, I'm gonna let you go after this. And I know that I did the optimist question. If there's. If there is a historical figure right now that you think people should look into, you think would be very eye opening, who would it be?
- [61:41]
C
William Jennings Bryan. Go read his Cross of Gold speech. Yes, I know you didn't expect that. He ran for president multiple times in the late 1800s, early 1900s, never won, but he definitely fueled much of the reforms we saw that we desperately need now too, as well. And he talked about the elites and how most of us have been forgotten. His speech, his cross of Gold speech was so good. He gave this at the 1896 Democratic National Convention, and he was their nominee for president that year. His speech was so inspiring. It got people so riled up that they literally lifted him up and carried him out of the venue as if he was like a football quarterback at the end of a game after throwing a winning touchdown. I'm not even joking. So, yeah, he's definitely a relevant figure in our times.
- [62:31]
B
All right, I'm immediately. Right after we finish this, before I start the show. I'm immediately going to that. I'm so fascinated. Matt, thank you so much for the time, man. And I look forward to the next time we have you on.
- [62:41]
C
Thank you so much for having me again.
- [62:42]
A
And that, dear listener, is the end of today's podcast. And if you're listening to me here at the end and you're somehow not subscribed, what are you doing?
- [62:49]
B
Definitely subscribe. I've got weekly conversations that come out.
- [62:51]
A
Usually Tuesday or Thursday.
- [62:53]
B
If you like this one, I definitely.
- [62:54]
A
Recommend you check out one of our last two.
- [62:55]
B
No matter what, let me say thank you for watching.
- [62:57]
A
I love yo face, and I'll see you right back here next week.