Podcast Summary: In Good Faith With Philip DeFranco – "The End Of Free Speech In America With FIRE's Ari Cohn"

Air Date: September 4, 2025
Host: Philip DeFranco
Guest: Ari Cohn (First Amendment Lawyer, Lead Counsel at FIRE)

Overview

This episode delves into the escalating threats to the First Amendment in America, focusing on the recent wave of policy changes, government actions, and cultural shifts challenging free speech. Host Philip DeFranco and guest Ari Cohn—lead counsel at the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression (FIRE)—discuss how government overreach, partisan divides, chilling legal tactics, and institutional capitulations are combining to create what Cohn calls “an 8 out of 10 crisis” for free expression in the United States.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Light Opener: Chicago Food Wars

• [01:40] Ari offers a nuanced Chicago hot dog opinion—no ketchup at a restaurant but “live and let live” otherwise.
• [02:13] Declares deep dish pizza is not true Chicago pizza, adding levity before the serious main topic.

The State of Free Speech in 2025

Severity of the Crisis

• [04:46] On a 1-10 scale, Ari rates the threat to the First Amendment at an 8, calling the atmosphere “as bad as I’ve seen it right now. It’s, we’re in dark times now.” (Ari Cohn, 04:46)
• Both acknowledge First Amendment lawyers are prone to alarm, but believe the current context justifies real concern.

Executive Overreach & Flag Burning

• [05:30-07:15] Discussion of Trump’s executive order to punish flag burning. Ari notes, “It’s deeply troubling that this administration is going to try to single out people for prosecution ...because of the thing that accompanied it that offends them.”
• [07:27] Affirms burning one’s own flag is protected pure expression, and laws against it strip the symbol’s actual value: “If the flag stands for anything, it stands for the freedom to burn it, and it must.” (Ari, 08:06)

Partisanship and Selective Outrage

• [08:43] Ari highlights how both right and left only defend free speech when their views are at risk, lamenting: “It only occurs to people to care about free speech when their speech is on the line...You have to look out for the First Amendment, especially when it’s the people that you hate...” (Ari, 09:02)

Government Tactics: Chilling Effect & "Punishment Via Process"

• [13:43] The administration’s use of regulatory pressure (FCC settlements, lawsuits) aims to chill speech even without winning court cases. Ari describes SLAPP suits and abusive process as central threats: “They are intended to inflict punishment via process.”
• Touches on government demands in media mergers and settlements that give the administration direct influence over news content.

Border & Surveillance Overreach

• [15:09] Since Trump took office, increased detentions at airports for online speech, and legal loopholes at the border undermine digital rights and cause intimidation.

Higher Education & Institutional Capitulation

• [16:55] Urges colleges and institutions to resist government pressure: “If our institutions are caving, what hope do any of us little guys have?” (Ari, 16:55)
• Discusses settlements and Title VI threats forcing universities to stifle protest under the guise of anti-discrimination.

Free Press & Press Freedom

• [21:12] On attempts to overturn NYT v. Sullivan: Surprised and relieved the Supreme Court shows no appetite for reversing the precedent.
• [32:18] Critiques media companies for settling with Trump, stating it's not buying peace but encouraging further intervention: “You're not buying peace, you're buying a four year supply of lube...” (Ari, paraphrased, 32:46)

Legal Community’s Response

• [19:13] Notes that publicity and high-profile defections from capitulating law firms may be shifting attitudes, but much depends on ongoing public pressure.

Campus Protests & Anti-Semitism

• [24:32] Administration leverages anti-Semitism complaints to press universities to crack down on protest. Ari, as a Jewish person, calls this “patronizing and offensive,” and largely a tactic to silence viewpoints on Israel, not genuine anti-discrimination: “They care about silencing speech that they disagree with.” (Ari, 25:38)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the risk of selective free speech defense:
  “If you allow oppression against them, you create a precedent that could later be used against you.” (DeFranco referencing Thomas Paine, 00:44)

• On flag burning as protected expression:
  “If the flag stands for anything, it stands for the freedom to burn it, and it must.” (Cohn, 08:06)

• On punishment via process:
  “They are intended to inflict punishment via process. And it’s very expensive to defend against lawsuits.” (Cohn, 13:43)

• On the need for institutions to stand up:
  “If our institutions are caving, then what hope do any of us little guys have?” (Cohn, 16:55)

• On why free speech must be defended even for the worst:
  “The principal defense, the First Amendment demands that you can’t have it both ways.” (Cohn, 40:07)

• On the cyclical danger of not defending free speech broadly:
  “If you don’t do it, ...when it’s their time in the seat of power, they’re going to go after it. It just creates this cycle.” (Cohn, 09:36)

• On media companies rolling over:
  “You’re not buying peace, you’re buying a four year supply of lube.” (Cohn, 32:46; paraphrasing a colleague on media settlements with Trump)

• On the optimistic case:
  “Yes, there is a reason [for hope], and that is the alternative is giving up, and that’s far worse... I think you are seeing a lot of people mobilizing...if we can keep it going...there’s cause for hope.” (Cohn, 54:09)

International Perspective

• [41:50] Cohn briefly comments on the UK’s crackdown on speech (Graham Linehan, anti-Israel protests), calling the possibility of arrest for tweets “preposterous” and warning of internationally spreading chill on expression.

Internet Anonymity & Age Verification

• [48:25] Ari is a strong defender of anonymous speech, citing risk of retaliation and the importance of the Federalist Papers legacy.
• [51:48-53:49] Critical of moves to tie real identity to online activity, calling it “a dystopian hell,” and highlights dangers of data retention and privacy erosion.
• Believes courts will “stave off a deepening of that particular problem” regarding forced ID for general online access—but the fight is ongoing.

Recommendations & Resources

News Diet

• Ari reads a wide cross-section of news: Chicago Sun-Times, Tribune, NYT, Wall Street Journal, Smart News app, and aggregators.

Book Recommendations ([47:16])

• All by Jeff Kosseff:
  • The 26 Words That Created the Internet
  • Liar in a Crowded Theater
  • United States of Anonymous

Personal Story

• Ari’s passion for First Amendment issues stems from growing up in Skokie, Illinois—home to the famed ACLU–Nazi march case—and watching friends face censorship in college.

Important Timestamps

• 04:46: "Scale of the crisis" assessment
• 07:15-09:54: Flag burning, selective outrage, why broad defense matters
• 13:43: Chilling effect, SLAPP suits, punishment via process
• 16:28-17:45: Ways to resist, importance of institutional backbone
• 19:13: Legal profession's response to administration overreach
• 21:12: Attacks on NYT v. Sullivan, free press doctrine
• 25:22: Anti-Semitism, protest, and government overreach
• 32:18-33:39: Media company capitulation and its cost
• 41:50: UK crackdown and global context
• 48:25: Internet speech anonymity under attack
• 54:09: Closing thoughts, reasons for hope

Conclusion

Despite pervasive threats, Ari Cohn maintains cautious optimism: fighting back is both possible and critical. The greatest risk is in becoming apathetic or tribal about whose speech deserves protection. The episode makes a powerful case for defending the First Amendment as an indivisible right, warning that today’s complacency can become tomorrow’s repression—and emphasizing the vital role of institutional resistance, legal frameworks, and public solidarity in keeping free speech alive.

For those concerned about the state of American liberty, this episode is a vital, sobering, yet ultimately hopeful listen—a call to vigilance, nuanced thinking, and principled action.