The Government Is Surveilling Democrats Feat. Tim Miller of The Bulwark

Summary

Podcast Summary: In Good Faith With Philip DeFranco

Episode: The Government Is Surveilling Democrats Feat. Tim Miller of The Bulwark
Date: September 29, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, Philip DeFranco sits down with Tim Miller, political commentator and podcast host at The Bulwark, for a candid and critical conversation on escalating government surveillance, growing political polarization, the consequences of the recent Charlie Kirk assassination, the chilling climate for free speech, and the intersection of money, culture, and morality—from comedian controversies to Saudi soft power.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s NSPM 7 and Domestic Surveillance

• NSPM 7: A new White House directive targeting domestic terrorism, especially left-wing groups and protest organizations.
• Threat to Civil Liberties:
  • Tim sees general branding of activists as domestic threats as a greater danger than the specific Comey/Bolton legal cases ([01:26–02:59]).
    • “The targeting of generic left wing groups… protesting the streets, exercising their rights… the threats are very real right now. I also worry a little bit about the chilling effect.” — Tim Miller ([01:26])
• Language Matters:
  • Philip and Tim dissect the administration’s word choices, particularly “animating” behavior, viewing it as legally ominous, potentially equating dissent with incitement ([02:59–03:48]).

2. Political Rhetoric and Chilling Effects

• Vice President’s Rhetoric:
  • Recent statements by the Vice President, suggesting the Kirk assassination was incited or funded by “left-wing groups,” are called out as dangerous and unsubstantiated ([03:48–06:28]).
    • “Just the Vice President using that rhetoric is very alarming… If you start using the power of the state to go after those sorts of things, then we get really… down a dark path.” — Tim Miller ([05:27])
• Risk of Overreaction:
  • Tim underlines the need for honest yet precise critique to avoid stoking despondency or radicalism in reaction to authoritarian trends ([07:51–11:06]).
    • “I just worry that I do think we all have a responsibility to not have the people that listen to us either become despondent or radicalized because they’re being, you know, a bad situation is being exaggerated… I don’t want to do that.” ([08:24])

3. Linguistic Polarization & Scorekeeping

• Blaming “they”—using collective pronouns—is declared as both dangerous and strategic, increasing division and fueling us-vs.-them thinking ([13:06–14:07]).
• Media personalities like Megyn Kelly are critiqued for emotional, unmoored blame games online ([16:45–19:13]).
  • “Megan Kelly sent me... a screed about how my people have ruined the country… That seems like the rantings of somebody who needs to go outside and meet their neighbors.” — Tim Miller ([18:04])

4. Cycle of Political Opportunism and Tragedy

• Charlie Kirk Aftermath:
  • Deaths and mass shootings trigger cycles of blame, with both left and right seeking to capitalize; opportunism by emerging influencers noted ([19:52–21:18]).
• Administration Tactics:
  • Tim believes the administration “wants unrest” in cities to rationalize federal crackdowns, using a “heads I win, tails you lose” approach ([21:18–24:30]).
    • “Some elements within the administration really want more unrest so they can use it to send in more troops more places and to crack down on people…” — Tim Miller ([22:24])

5. Hope vs. Despondency in Activism

• Resisting Check-out:
  • Both urge listeners not to become cynical or detached, despite how overwhelming things may seem ([24:30–27:09]).
• Examples of Pushback:
  • Tim cites cases where resistance worked:
    • “If Putin wanted the fucking comedian he didn’t like off the air, he'd be off the air… In this country, [Jimmy Kimmel’s] back on the air.” ([27:11–30:18])
    • El Salvador deportations were stopped by mounting legal, media, and political pressure.

6. Testing the Boundaries—Authoritarian “Velociraptors”

• Trial and Error Authoritarianism:
  • Trump & allies are compared to Jurassic Park’s velociraptors—constantly testing for weaknesses and pushing until they meet defeat or resistance ([33:13–36:07]).
    • “They’re just trying a lot of shit, you know, they’re going to try to open a lot of doors… Pushing back on each door is important.” ([33:13])

7. Culture, Commerce & Complicity: The Riyadh Comedy Festival

• Saudi Soft Power:
  • Widespread condemnation of US comedians accepting Saudi money to perform, highlighting the normalization of blood money in entertainment ([36:07–46:08]).
    • “Just say no to Saudi money. You don’t need it. All these people are rich.” ([36:30])
• Shift in Values:
  • Lamenting how greed and “vice signaling” have surpassed older societal taboos on collaborating with autocrats ([45:39–47:59]).
  • “There's almost something good about being like… I'm going to take the Saudi blood money… that's where it tips over for me.” ([46:08])

8. Learning from ‘the Other Side’

• Ezra Klein Debate:
  • Tim discusses backlash against Ezra Klein for suggesting that some organizational tactics of the right (Charlie Kirk/TPUSA) are effective and worth learning from ([52:24–58:27]).
    • “People want to go to the party where everybody looks like they're happy… not the party where everybody looks like they're, like, sitting around lecturing you.” ([54:19])
    • Tim and Philip contend calls for universal demonization are misguided; community and strategic thinking are necessary to win people over.
• Call for De-escalation:
  • “At a moment like this, maybe we need to not rhetorically fight the other side, but… to figure out how to find common ground and how to de-escalate.” — Tim Miller ([58:42])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On NSPM 7’s chilling effect:

  • “There’s a huge gap between, like, what is happening in Hungary… and what is happening in Pyongyang. Those are both authoritarian, but in very different ways. And it’s important to communicate to people what the truth is about where we’re at.” — Tim Miller ([07:51])

• On political tribalism:

  • “If you treat the people on the other side like their worst example… is representative of everybody that voted for that person… then it’s kind of rational for some people to start thinking that we should have a civil war.” — Tim Miller ([11:21])

• On cultural amorality and greed:

  • “You would hope our society would just… come together and be like, this is like a norm… that we don’t want people to do this… That maybe would have been true 50 years ago and it’s just not now.” ([45:01])

• On the Ezra Klein/Charlie Kirk controversy:

  • “Ezra was like, no, I actually think this is a moment for trying to… forge a bond through this crisis and de-escalate. And I think that some folks didn’t like that.” — Tim Miller ([59:12])

• On optimism and active engagement:

  • “Caring and speaking out as a society still works in this country… It matters to not be totally despondent.” — Tim Miller ([29:36])

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Trump’s NSPM 7 and government surveillance: [01:09–02:59]
• Vice President’s rhetoric post-Kirk assassination: [03:48–06:28]
• The psychology behind “They” language and polarization: [13:06–14:07]
• Megyn Kelly confrontation / internet-fueled outrage: [16:45–19:13]
• Cycle of political opportunism after Kirk’s death: [19:52–21:18]
• Trial-and-error authoritarianism (Velociraptors analogy): [33:13–36:07]
• Riyadh Comedy Festival / Saudi money in U.S. culture: [36:07–47:27]
• Ezra Klein & “learning from the right” debate: [52:24–58:27]

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Tone & Dynamic

Throughout, Philip and Tim balance measured analysis, frustration, gallows humor, and an ongoing search for hope. While the podcast veers pessimistic at times—particularly about U.S. dysfunction and rising authoritarian tactics—both emphasize the value of public engagement, refusing to let cynicism collapse into disengagement or defeatism.

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Summary Takeaways

• Authoritarian risks in the U.S. are real but contextually distinct from full autocracy; de-escalation and community focus are vital.
• Language used by politicians and media actively shapes polarization; beware letting outliers define “the other side.”
• Pushback can work—organizing, speaking out, and legal challenges sometimes yield real-world victories.
• Cultural standards have shifted: greed and opportunism outweigh past taboos about collaborating with authoritarian regimes.
• Learning from effective organizing is distinct from condoning bad actors’ ideology. Internal division hurts the pro-democracy cause.
• Don’t check out: The administration wants quiet consent and disengagement. Stay involved, be precise, and push back.

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For those who missed the episode: This conversation is a guide through current American anxieties—authoritarian creep, the power and peril of rhetoric, and the fight to keep hope, dignity, and authentic community alive amid intensifying polarization.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome, welcome, welcome back to the In Good Faith podcast, where every week I talk to people I think are the most important and influential people in the world. And this week I spoke to Tim Miller. Tim, he just won the Ryder cup for Team Europe. And he's also the host of the Bulwark podcast. So you may know him from anything from MSNBC to Piers Morgan to crooked media. The man is a professional yapper. And before all this, he was Jeb Bush's communication director in 2016. He was a spokesperson for the RNC before he left the party in 2020. He's also also one of our first guests to now come on twice. And today we talked about it a lot. We talked about Trump's new national security proclamation that looks like it's seeking to brand anyone with criticism for him or the government as a domestic terrorist. And we also talked about the cultural and societal rot in America, shameless comedians selling out for the Riyadh Comedy Festival and much, much more. And hey, if you enjoy this episode, give it five stars on Spotify and Apple or give it a like on YouTube and leave a comment about what you agreed with, disagreed with or who you'd like to see next as a guest. So Tim, just gotta ask you right at the beginning, what do you think of or what do you make of NSPM 7? Like, do you. We haven't seen a ton of mainstream coverage. It's been kind of popping up more and more, growing online. Are you concerned about it? Are you stressed about it?

[B]

What the fuck are you talking about?

[A]

NSPM7 coming from the White House? Do you not, you not know?

[B]

Oh, is this the, this is the going after the domestic. This is like going after the left wing groups.

[A]

Yeah, so it was like, it was, it was talking about going after the. Yeah, so if you go to like the, the White House, it's countering domestic terrorism.

[B]

Yeah. God, I don't, I just don't usually reference them by like their, by their acronym, you know, like you're like that crazy bullshit today. The actual substance of the EOs. And I don't like, you know, it's hard to think about it. Yeah, the. Here's. I actually, I find that more worrying than I do the Comey stuff. And it sucks for Jim, Jim Comey, you know, and it sucks for John Bolden and, and we can get into this. And I just think that what they have is very weak. These guys are going to have massive legal teams behind them. They're going to have PR support. You know, it's a bad Sign for the country, don't get me wrong. But I think that, you know, the targeting of, you know, they're just sort of generic branding of these left wing groups of people that are out there protesting the streets, exercising their rights. Obviously, with the sending of the Department of War to Portland, they want a crackdown, they want escalation. And I think that some of this stuff is gonna be a little bit harder to monitor than their efforts going after these kind of bold faced names. Right. And so to me, I think I'm not like personally that worried about it, but as far as like the broader threats, you know, facing groups that want to speak out, organize against this administration, I think those threats are very real right now. And you know, I think that I also worry a little bit about the chilling effect.

[A]

Yeah, I mean the chilling effect is scary. I think like when I was going through it, I was trying, I always try and have that like, second thing where I was like, I see, I see what people are saying it says and I'm like, okay, are we taking two separate parts where it's like we're talking about violence and then we're talking about separately the people that are talking about it as potentially being connected. And the, the one of the words that stuck out to me was when it said common threads. Animating this violent conduct includes anti Americanism, anti capitalism, anti Christian. Because animating feels like it's like the cousin to incitement, which they just love to say. Incitement, incitement, incitement. And I think that feels like they're putting out the playbook. But yeah, I mean, to your point, there's the James Comey stuff, the chilling.

[B]

Effect and on the incitement, just really quick on that because to me, one of the. More this is nothing that just didn't get a lot of attention. Something that was pretty alarming to me. But the vice president after the Kirk assassination was on with this is the world we're in now. I believe it was the podcast of Stephen Miller's wife, I believe is what he was on. And he was talking about the shooter. And I don't have this in front of me. You can put the exact of it in post. But it was essentially, he says essentially to her that this shooter was motivated, inspired and maybe even funded by the left wing groups that are going after us. Right. Like that's a paraphrase of what he said. And I was just like, there's a, that's a total lie and a total fabrication. Like there's no evidence of that. At this point that Tyler Robinson was involved in any organized left effort against the administration, that he was inspired by that. Who knows what he was inspired by at this point? I mean, obviously we know a motive, but like, who knows like what material he was receiving? And we certainly know that he wasn't funded by anybody. I mean he was like living in an apartment, sharing a room, sharing an apartment in a small town in Utah. Right? Like, so the fact that the Vice President though would like lay that pretext down, right? And to be like, we have to go after the people that are behind this, to me, again, that goes to your, to what your point is about their rhetoric, about what, you know, what they're kind of alluding to here, which is that, you know, if, if anyone is out there, you know, speaking, organizing, commenting in a, you know, in a, in an intense way about what this administration is doing, and especially if they're doing it with funding behind them, that these guys are going to consider that a potential, potentially whatever, an attack against the country, a threat against the country, something that can be investigated and looked into, that like the worst case scenario of that leads us to a dark place, right? Like the current scenario is pretty bad, right? Which is like the Vice President is just basically like using lies like instigate, you know, internal strife and instigate people to be upset at something that doesn't exist, which is like this organized effort to go out there and kill like maga, like that is just not something that exists in the country. Obviously there have been really bad one off incidents that have happened that we condemn. But like, like just, just the Vice President using that rhetoric is very alarming. If you start using the power of the state to go after those sorts of things, then, then, then we get really, we start going down, down a dark path.

[A]

Well, I guess there's a few things I want to ask there, but I mean I, I, I, I watched a video you put out recently. You or someone on your team called it. Tim Miller gets emotional, I think, or I think it might have been where you, you kind of talked about the, the state of America right now.

[B]

You know, I did not call it that. Just, just, I get, I get uncomfortable like when I, I'm like, then I get, you're like, I get awkward about it because I'm like A, I don't talk to the third person like Bob Dole and B, I'm just like, I know though, I know you want to draw people in. It was true. I didn't object to it because it was true. But, you know, it makes me uncomfortable.

[A]

But, you know, you said you feel like you're a bit of a pessimist about it right now or seeing the warning signs. You don't want to be despondent. You don't want make, you don't, you don't want to make people despondent. And you also don't want to kind of alienate right wing supporters right now to the point, because there has to be a reconnection is kind of your thing. I mean, are we, are we there? Because, I mean, I mean, even this morning we're seeing like, everyone rushing to try to point, blame and say this person's on the side of like the Mormon Church shooter.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, it feels like everyone's trying to. It's not even, it's like score points to what end? And at least one part's end is to justify potentially a crackdown even further on anyone that's saying anything that could be remotely tied.

[B]

Yeah. There's a lot of layers to this. So stick with me for a second as I try to explain my thinking, because the point of that video was that I am really torn about all this and I'm just trying to be honest with people because on the one hand, things are pretty bad, right? And we're here, you're here. I'm here to tell people the truth as we see it and to explain what the potential threats are as we see it. At the same time, I just, on the feedback from people, I get, I get things that sometimes are alarming or make me sad or like, are concerning. Right. Which is like, what's the point? Like, you guys talk about the midterms. What's the point of it? Like, they're going to be, they're going to be a sham. Right? And like, we're already Russia, you know, there's no point of all that. Or, you know, this is, this is, this is hopeless. Maybe we do need to, you know, start to be thinking more about, like, solutions outside of like, the normal liberal democratic system. Right. Because like, obviously that isn't working right now and there's no, no path to working or think about other, other ways to fight back, which I absolutely oppose. Or, you know, you just hear people that are just generally despondent and don't want, like, what's, don't want to fight this or don't want to check out. And like, I hear all that. Like, I get it. Like, I think that there's bad stuff, but I just think sometimes, you know, when all of us use Rhetoric that, you know, it's important that we're precise. Right. Like, as I just said to you, like, I think we could get to a dark place. Right. I think that what the Vice President's doing right now is alarming, concerning. We should speak out against him, call him out. Like, he's not, at this point, you know, we're not Russia. It's not like you and I have to worry about somebody coming to my door today to like, you know, put tape around my mouth and shut me up. Right. Like, there's a huge, like, when you say one, the authoritarian path, like there's this huge gap between, like, what is happening in Hungary that I don't want for my country and what is happening in Pyongyang. Right. Those are both authoritarian, but in very different ways. And it's important to communicate to people what the truth is about where we're at. And so that's kind of one side of this, because I just worry that I do think we all have a responsibility to not have the people that listen to us either become despondent or radicalized because they're, they're being, you know, a bad situation is being exaggerated. Like, that's into something that is hopeless. Right. And I don't want to do that. The other element to that that you're talking about is just this kind of inter. This kind of never ending internal cold civil war that we have kind of that, that I think everybody kind of imagines they're part of everybody's wrong. Too many people kind of imagine that they're part of. Right. On social media, which is like after a tragedy, I need to post to prove that it's the other side's fault. Or I need to post to remind people that if this one was my fault, there's actually been more that's the other side's fault. And my point is kind of like, that is an unhealthy way to think. Just individually, people should stop doing that. But also, you can't live as a society like that. We have to be able to live to get. Tyler Robinson was not on my team. Like this guy that shot up the Mormon church in Michigan who apparently wore a Trump shirt, you know, we'll see exactly. The details are. But like, that guy was not on Ben Shapiro's team. You know what I mean? Like, just because they both voted for Donald Trump In 2020, like, we, like, we need to all live together within in a democratic society. And if we treat the people on the other side like their worst example is, is Representative of everybody that voted for that person. Well, then it's kind of rational for some people to start thinking that we should have a civil war, right? If people believe that every. If right wingers believe that everybody on the left is increasingly violent and is in league with the guy that killed Charlie Kirk, it's not a huge jump to thinking that they should act on that, especially ones who have mental health problems. And so I just think that is the part that I'm just trying to tamp down with people, which is, like, I have very strong, passionate disagreements with maga, very strong. And I think that, like, a lot of their policies are. Are. Are cruel and grotesque, and they. They've tried to cheat. And I. They don't really want to play within the rules of liberal democratic system. Like, all those things can be true. And yet every person over there, like, I, you know, I don't. If you get to a point where they become, like, enemy combatants, you know, and everything you post on social media has to, like, advance, you know, our side's position against theirs, it just leads to a very bad place. Like, the example I used was about the Balkans. Like, we don't want to be the Balkans. Like, you can go ask anybody what it was like to live in Yugoslavia in the 1990s. And, like, we don't want that. We don't want everybody feeling like, you know, the fucking Serbs are our enemy. Right, the maga. And so, like, that is just the part that I've been kind of really trying to process and like, work through and struggle with over the last couple weeks, because I just. I see some concerning signs in the commentary around all this. I don't know. Does that all make sense to you? That was like, a long.

[A]

No, I think it does make sense. I mean, I think a lot of it boils down to a word that I've seen not once again, not universally, but seen used, whether it be the people, the highest people in our government, to commentators of. They, right, they killed. Right, you've seen they killed Charlie Kirk. They did this. And you're like, oh, so it's. You're full on batching everybody. Horrifying. And it's not like. It's not like it. Because there's such concerted use of the language, it feels like there is a concerted effort to. To. To. To do this. And it. I don't know that that scares me because it just. It feeds more and. And then. And then it feels like it's adopted when people are, like, playing into the. Is. Is the person on our side or your side? Because then it's like, no, no, no. Then. Then you're playing into the game of they, we. And it's like, to your point, these are fucking horrifying. Like, people that took it to this crazy level that I feel like we've all denounced this violence.

[B]

Yeah. Just like this North Carolina guy, for example. Like, there's so many mass shootings in this country, and so that could. We could have a gun conversation if you want to. But like, this North Carolina guy, for example, I was just reading about it right before he came on, and I guess he filed a lawsuit a couple months ago that was. That essentially said there was some organization in the state and he thought that they were LGBTQ white supremacists that were coming for him. And it's just like, okay, there's one way to frame that where you're like, you could. You could frame that story and say, hey, this was a guy with an AR15 who blamed the gays for his problems and shot up a church. So he's on the other side. So he's on the other team. And that count one score for the other team being bad. Another way to look at it is this is an insane person who should not have had an AR15. Right. Like, I don't even. Like, what is he even talking about? Like, LGBT white supremacists. Like, it's incoherent. Right. Like, it's an insane person who had access to a firearm that he should have access to that committed a total tragedy. And if you look at like that, to me, it's like, well, then those are potentially solvable problems within a community. Like, we could all decide, like, crazy people probably shouldn't have AR15s and we should do better mental health services for people. We should have red flag laws. That's solvable. If you instead look at it and say, just another MAGA radical shooting up a church, then that gets you to a place of like, well, this tit for tat kind of mindset, which I just totally reject and abhor. And so. And obviously you're seeing that on the other side. Like, Megyn Kelly did the whole they thing to me. I tweeted at Megyn Kelly. I forget what I tweeted at her that prompted this, but she replied to me with like, we don't care what you think anymore. You killed Charlie. You did this. You all did that. You did the other thing. And I'm like, I don't want to. I'm not. I'm not. I'M not turning into Megy Kelly. Like, I reject and abhor that whole mindset. And so I don't know, though. I mean, I think that, you know, we're just. We're just two dudes, you know, with YouTube pages. Right. Like, it's. I feel. I feel like I also just, as an analyst, assess that there's a lot of people in the culture who are kind of taking on that mindset, that us versus them mindset internally in a way that I think is a little unhealthy.

[A]

When you see it coming from Megyn Kelly or other commentator types, do you feel like it's. It is a strategic reaction, an emotional reaction? Because, I mean, from a strategic standpoint, because the. The right currently has essentially control of all. All power right now in the government. Like, do you. Or is it. Or is it more emotional and, you know, or is it a mixture? What do you think?

[B]

Well, I think it's different for people. I think Megyn Kelly's brains been broken by the Internet. I think there's a lot of people whose brains been broken from the. By the Internet. And I think that we should have a broader conversation about tech companies and the media bubbles people are in and, like, what these billionaire oligarchs are, you know, are trying to incentivize. What's showing up in your for you page? Like, I'm going to speak for myself. Like, crazy shit is showing up in my for you page on all of these platforms. So I think that Megyn Kelly and a lot of people have gotten really kind of burrowed into a narrative, like an us versus them narrative, evil versus good. And I just, like, if you go back and look at what she sent me, it just wasn't a strategic thing. I think that there's strategic fate outrages on the right. Like, I'm really mad that the Little Mermaid is black. Like, I don't think that Megyn Kelly is. I don't remember if she picked that one in particular, but whoever was out there, like, I don't think anybody was actually mad that Little Mermaid was black. A handful of racists. But, like, none of the prominent YouTubers were or commentators were mad about that. They pretended to be because it was good for content, right? So I think that there are examples of performative outrage. I don't know. Megan Kelly sent me like, a 8,000 word, like, screed about how my people have ruined the country and are, like, responsible for a friend's death. And, like, and like, we need to be defeated at all costs. And I Just like, like that's. That those. Death to me seems like the rant. The rantings of somebody who's like, who needs to go outside and meet their neighbors. Honestly, maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. I guess it doesn't really matter what's in her brain because, like, what she puts out is more important. But I think that for a lot of people, like there and started in Covid and Trump has exacerbated it in a big way. I think that there are a lot of people that are. That are burrowing into kind of an Internet community based around politics and are sort of forgetting about the actual humanity of their neighbors and just like the real. Just the reality of humans about how we're all complex and have, you know, we all have good. Good parts and they all sin. You know what I mean? Like, that's what. That's what happens when you live in like a community. If you're just online and all you're getting is the other side wants to end your way of existence, then you start to like, think crazy thoughts. Yeah.

[A]

That's where I kind of kind of go back where I'm trying to understand things of. Okay, is this more of a human thing or is it a strategic thing? Especially when it comes to commentators. Right.

[B]

So.

[A]

Because when it comes to everyday people, you never know like, who's just kind of following suit or who's. I mean, honestly, online, who's a bot. And so it's really hard to.

[B]

Who's Romanian for everything.

[A]

Yeah. But like, especially in the. The aftermath of. Of Kirk's death, like, it's. So much of it is okay that goes through my mind is okay, where. Where are the genuine. Like, I could see for a number of people it feeling like a call to action to.

[B]

To.

[A]

To fill in a gap to. To follow, you know, whatever they. They kind of connected to with Kirk on. And then others maybe seeing it as more of a strategic opportunity for audience.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Audience gathering and. But it's also that kind of.

[B]

You saw some of that like yesterday. I don't know. You know, are you a football guy? The Penn State had a whiteout and like three people were wearing Charlie Kirk white shirts. And they were like influencers that were out there being like, the Penn State stadium has in white for Charlie Kirk, which is like, not. Which was not true. But they got a lot of retweets from it. Like, so there is that. Obviously there's opportunism.

[A]

Well, so. So, yeah, I can't speak to that one specifically. I had seen things in passing and then people either saying it was overblown or there were a ton of people. I don't know, but I've seen a lot of conversation around people like, have you seen this kid, Brylan Hollyhand? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like, even people on the right, like, there's, like, there's. There's this conversation happening on the right and the left about these. These voices that have kind of popped up, because I've. I've never seen this kid before in my life, but he's trying to fill.

[B]

The gap as, like, the new Charlie Kirk.

[A]

And then. Yeah, and then there's, like, this whole thing about authenticity. And I don't know. I. I'm very. Where do you think we are a month from now regarding the fallout from Kirk's death? And I don't know how people are talking or where we are in general.

[B]

I would worry, I think. And this is why I thought it was just, you know, really important that everybody try to. Try to dial down the temperature. I know that's like. It kind of makes me roll my eyes when I hear commentators say, dial down the temperature, and then I find myself saying it because it's just like, okay, well, you know, probably none of these shooters were, like, cable news consumers, right? Like, most of, like, you know, the kid in Utah was, by all accounts, like, playing video games most of the time. I looked at his. You know, they posted like, you know, some sort of set. Like, you know, what's the fucking word I'm looking for? You know, just kind of listed all the different hours he played every game. And I was like, whoa, that guy's playing a lot of games. Not to blame video games. My point is, like, maybe these shooters weren't radicalized by any rhetoric at all. I think that's probably the most likely scenario, actually. But even still, my point is that if there are more examples of these things are going to get worse. The administration wants to have political unrest in the streets. They want it. So they're sending the troops into Portland. I mentioned this earlier. Right now, what do they want from that? Well, part of it is like a heads I win, tails you lose thing, right? Where if it gets calm, they get to take credit. And if there are protesters throwing Molotov cocktails at them and somebody gets hurt, or, God forbid, somebody dies, then they get to say, okay, well, this rationalizes why we're in there. We need more, actually. We need more troops, more places, right? And to me, if you just look at the administration, I don't think that it's too far of a jump to say that at least some elements within the administration really want more unrest so they can use it to send in more troops more places and to crack down on people more places. I think that there is a lot of evidence that they are championing the bit to do that. So when you say, what are things like a month from now? A lot of that has to do with like the reality on the ground. And, you know, I think that hopefully the folks in Portland can like protest passionately and peacefully and speak out and like unite together against this and do so in a way that doesn't bring about, you know, extra, you know, additional state violence or one off violence. But we can't control every crazy person. You know what I mean? Like, what if just one person does something crazy? Right. So I think we're in a very kind of dicey situation right now, and I think that it's very unsure. And I think that the right is going to try to use the Kirk thing to rally people around them and to justify more attacks on the left. And, you know, and I think that the left needs to like, use this, the. That moment of state, both attempts to silence people, but also, you know, state military action to rally themselves. Right. And like, you know, and a month from now, maybe we're at a quieter equilibrium or maybe I, They've escalated, the administration has escalated. This, I think trying to predict that is a bit of a fool's errand.

[A]

Yeah. I think it is hard to be, to not be a pessimist when it comes to, to your point of it just, it just takes one person, right? And we, we know that, like, I don't know, you have any interaction or you have enough interactions and you're just like, okay, I'm gonna come across two crazy people out of a hundred, especially if, like, I don't know. I think that's where sometimes when I saw your video where it was like, you talking about the state of things, I was like, I very much connected to it. And it gets to a place of, yeah, I also want to give people hope, but it does. I don't know. I am of. I forget if I mentioned it with you last time we talked. It's been a minute. But it does feel like it does have to get worse before it gets better. And that even with as bad as things are. Yeah, it's not there. And I know that you said like, we're not in Russia. It does feel like we're in just a slightly different version of the crackdown that is more focused on the chilling effect and the harassment, the legal harassment. It's like crackdowns but more, it's just, there's just like more window dressing of, of how it's being done. Like your home's not being raided but your bank account is. If you're going to want to defend yourself.

[B]

I mean, I don't know, you said you heard, you just heard my breakdown. Like, do you think that I'm being too, like, where do you, where do you assess my assessment on the scale? Are you darker than me?

[A]

No. Here's the thing. I, I, it's hard for me not to have, it's hard for me not to be very negative about it. One, because we're seeing everything we're seeing and to the messengers, like Stephen Miller, I do not know how he is on TV so often when he is, I think one of the most off putting individuals I've ever seen in the history of America. It, it feels like, it feels like central casting of like this is someone that you would expect like once, I don't know, I'm trying to, I'm trying to navigate my language, but it seems like there is ill intent whenever this man opens his mouth.

[B]

And I think that's a very safe way to put it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It seems like, it seems like there's, there's ill intent and it, I don't know. So I think the messenger, the messages or the messaging and the messengers are a big part of the, the reason. So.

[B]

No.

[A]

And, but I also, I think it's why I surround myself with a lot of people that are like, you know what just around the corner could be good. I'm like, I'm like it feels like a really long corner. Yeah, it feels like, it feels like, I mean there's a lot of corners coming up. There's a lot of turns coming up. The first one's obviously the midterms and we're seeing kind of.

[B]

But that's far towards that.

[A]

Yeah, even that's far lack of now time's weird, right? So it's like we're almost, we're getting closer and closer. Not quite there to a year into the Trump presidency. But yeah, to your point, even the midterms are.

[B]

Yes. I guess I just want to put like a finer point on my like why I feel an obligation on this and maybe this will resonate with you. Which is like on the one hand if somebody tells me like a dad, you know, I had the father daughter dance last week, so you know, I'm getting a lot of questions about all this at this school functions, things of this nature. If a dad tells me, you know, man, I just, I'm turning. I'm just going to do sports podcasts for a couple months. Like, I just can't take it anymore. I said, I'm like, that's fine. That's cool. Like, I get it. Like, I get it. That's. That's a rational reaction. I think everybody should. Should prioritize themselves and their family and, like, what is achievable, right? At the same time, I also think it's important just to recognize and remember that, like, they. And by they. I'm not using the broad. They have maga, but they specifically Trump, Miller, Vance, like that crew, like the crew that is running the country right now, the administration wants people who oppose them to check out. Right? Like, they want to be like, that is how they continue to gather more power. And the Kimmel thing, at some level is, like, was important. It's a little bit frivolous compared to some of these other very serious things that we're discussing because he's back on TV a couple a week later. But to me, it's like this good example of how actually caring and speaking out as a society still works in this country. If Putin wanted the fucking comedian he didn't like off the air, he'd be off the air and maybe down a flight of stairs. And in this country, they tried to get him off the air. And there was pushback from viewers who were saying, fuck you, Disney. I'm going to cancel my Disney. There was pushback from political elites. There's pushback from other media members. There's even in this rare case, some pushback within Trump's own party. And it worked. He's back on the air. I feel that way about El Salvador. Trump wanted to put more people in El Salvador. He sent three planes to El Salvador of people who had no right to be there. It was a horrible human rights violation that our country committed. But there was legal pushback. Chris Van Hollen went there. There was media pushback. There was pressure put on him. There was geopolitical pressure. Now there's nobody there. El Salvador has their own prisoners there, but there are no people that America sent there. And Bukele had come to the White House a couple months ago. Trump had said to him, I want you to build a bigger prison because I got more people coming. So that was another nefarious plot that was foiled. So my point is, had people just Said, oh, fuck, there's nothing we can do about any of this. Then there would be more people in the El Salvador prison. Celebrity Family Feud would be on instead of Jimmy Kimmel, you know what I mean? Like right now in the 11 o' clock hour. And so it matters to not be totally despondent. Right? And so I guess that's like my specific example of how I'm trying to, like, I want to be really honest with people about where we're at and at the same time not send them around the bend into a place that's like, worse than the reality and to a place of give up. You know, despondency, where people give up.

[A]

I will say, yeah, the Kimmel, the way that Kimmel played out. I even found myself a little surprised because I think I had gotten to the point where I was like, oh, this is. There's no breaks. There's no breaks on any aspect. It's just. It's gonna happen. But then I think even that was a little bit of a blind spot. To your point that also, at the end of the day, if what we're talking about are giant corporations either getting pressured by the government and complying and going one way or another, they still care about money.

[B]

So it's like, capitalism persists, baby.

[A]

Yeah. At least we can count on that. And like, and greed and not wanting to lose the shareholders money. So I was like, okay, so there's that one thing that we could hold on to.

[B]

Hell yeah.

[A]

Okay, so you gave me a little. You gave me.

[B]

I'm bucking you up a little bit.

[A]

Hey, yeah. Yeah, well, that.

[B]

Philip, I gotta tell you, man, you're in a bad way. I don't know, you might need to go for a run. You might need to have a night out where you just let loose a little bit. Have some bourbons. Because if I. If you're listening to me and being like, boy, you're really bucking me up.

[A]

That's.

[B]

That's not. That's a place. That's a place that's not that ideal. Because I'm usually hearing that. The opposite sentiment.

[A]

Well, no, so I think. I think a lot of. A lot of the time I keep these negative feelings in my head because I'm like, so your point? I'm not. I don't want people to check out or drag them down. I am. I. But I've always been someone that just am like, okay, so it's. I don't. I don't want to make false equivalencies, but, you know, it's like any, anytime anything slightly goes wrong, well, I immediately imagine and start playing out the worst case scenario.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so, hey, that means I say.

[B]

This myself as a sports fan. I tell the pod listeners to this. I was like, just so you know, I'm trying to fight this in the news environment, but, like, my team has a bad game and I'm like, well, fuck, we're. We're never going to win again. You know, and like, we have a good game. And I'm like, we're going to, we're going to win the championship. Like, that's just my nature. I have a roller coaster type personality. Like, my husband is much more like this. And I'm like, you know, that's just me. So I hear you on that. I hear you on that.

[A]

No, that's why, that's why I stopped being. That's why I stopped being a Jets fan four years ago.

[B]

Smart. So there you go. That was an example of where catastrophizing and negative thinking worked out for you. You saved yourself a lot of pain that way.

[A]

Yeah, I was like, you know what the Chargers were doing bad when I, when I, when I switched teams. But, hey, that you get in at the right time, Herbert.

[B]

Yeah, hopefully we'll see.

[A]

I. I don't know. I mean, do you think, do you think the Kimmel situation is actually over, though, in the sense of like, it happened there was that pop. But I mean, that's also a different landscape. Like, that is already, like, it feels like a dying landscape. People were kind of like, fuck, you kind of made me have to care about Jimmy Kimmel. Yeah, like, I was, you know, I think a lot of people were Kimmel agnostic. And all of a sudden it was like, okay, well, now I. He's, he's. He becomes this thing because of this moment from the Correct.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I was, I gotta say, I was pretty surprised that even Sinclair ended up folding on that and like, he's now back on the local affiliates. Like that. That even kind of surprised me. I don't really. We'll find out what the backstory is from, from, you know, Dylan Byers or one of these people that does media reporting, you know. But I don't know what it was, but I think that's a good sign. Is it over? I don't. Here's kind of how I think about it. People used, I'm stealing this analogy about like Trump won versus Trump 2 was that he was kind of like in Jurassic park, they're like, the velociraptors and in the first Jurassic park, they're trying to. They were trying to learn how to open the doors. They couldn't figure out how to do it. And then eventually, like, you know, the Velociraptors opened the doors and were able to cause a lot more damage. And like in Trump 2, they figured out how to open the doors. I want to extend that analogy, is like, they're just trying a lot of shit, you know, they're going to try to open a lot of doors, right? And see what takes, you know, and like they're trying to do. Now they got the DOJ going after Comey, and I think. I think we should expect Bolton to get indicted soon. I have that on pretty high authority. You know, they're going to go after the comedians to see how that works. We mentioned at the top, I think they're going to try to go after the, you know, Soros and other types of Democratic donors that fund activist groups and protest organizations. I think they're going to try that. Like Trump, whatever you think about him, he doesn't mind trying some shit, seeing if it takes and then if it does, going with it and if it doesn't, giving up on it, you know. And so that's why I think, like, pushing back on him, on each door is important. Right. Like, think about Greenland, for example. I don't know, man. When he had sent that group of people to Greenland to see if they were into it, and he felt like there was some politician in Greenland that was on board for a coup, they might have tried a coup in Greenland. I don't think that was crazy, but it was just like, oh, well, now he never mentions Greenland anymore. That didn't really take. The Danes pushed back. The people of Greenland pushed back. J.D. vance was mocked when he went there and it was like, okay, I just, I think that we're going to keep seeing that. And so that why the Kimmel story might be dead. You know, they're going to try to test something else some other place, right? To see if they can intimidate somebody else and have that work. You know, University is an example where it's worked. Right. Like they tried it with, you know, Columbia Folds and I were to go after Harvard, you know, oh, we're to go after ucla. Oh, you know what I mean? Yeah. And so, like, that's why as a civil society, when they do things against the rule of law, it's important to push back. And when they don't, when people fold, they keep going, you know, they keep pressing. That's kind of how I see it. So I don't know. The Kimmel story itself might be dead or they might try something new. My guess is they try something else in a similar vein.

[A]

So I think you're definitely someone that's probably more focused on what's happening in Portland, what's happening with Comey. But you mentioned comedians, and so I got to kind of just pick your brain on this. Are you aware of the whole scandal with the Riyadh Comedy Festival? And I don't know if. Yeah.

[B]

Do you have any thoughts? I've become obsessed with Tim Dillon's podcast, and here's why. Tim Dillon's been mocking this. He was invited, and he was invited and accepted, but then went on and mocked the Riyadh Comedy Fest, like, talking about how they have slaves there and they do be handings. And he basically was like, I'll take your money, but I'm going to mock you. And then eventually they canceled him. So my entry into that was through that. And so just two thoughts really quick on the react Comedy Fest. I think it's horrible. I actually been a longtime Saudi watcher for some personal reasons, and I had friends who were targeted by the Saudi regime, folks who are from there. And so I fucking hate Liv golf. I hate the way people have folded to Saudi money across the board. I think this is another thing. Just say no to Saudi money. Just say no. You don't need it. All these people are rich. So I'm totally against these people going to do the comedy Fest. Just in a related thing, if you want to talk about it, about the Tim Dillon. Now, I've been listening to his pod. He's a MAGA comedian. If people don't know him. And he is. He is an independent enough thinker that like, in some ways he's giving me a little hope about the way out. Like, me and Tim Dillon disagree on a lot. You know, like, he has very culturally conservative kind of attitudes, a little libertarian, but, like, more than me. And. But he's been like, what the fuck is happening? We're renaming this Department of War. We're going after Venezuela. We're still supporting Israel. He's like, I thought we. I thought MAGA was about America first. We signed up for America first. You know, he's like, kimmel. I think Kimmel sucks. But, like, we're gonna go after comedians now. I thought that we were a free speech thing. Like, so, you know, his show has been interesting for me because I'm kind of like, that is probably actually a better way to convince people who are with Trump than like me, you know, like, I haven't been a Republican in 10 years. I've not liked Trump for 10 years. You know, that's, I haven't been a Republican for five years. I've been speaking out against Trump for 10 years. You know, I think maybe I, hopefully my stuff resonates with some people, but like, Dylan is like maga. Like, his vibes are maga, you know, and his, his worldview is pretty maga and he's pissed. And so I don't know. So anyway, that was really your question, but I just want to volunteer that because that's really the only reason I was kind of aware of the Riyadh Comedy Fest stuff is because I've been listening to his show to try to get so. But I mean, some tea leaves on how to talk to Maga fol folks about, about, about off. Getting off, off ramping them.

[A]

Well, yeah, so I mean, I'll talk more about the festival in a minute. But I mean, with Tim Dillon, is it because you think that he, he's, he's talking the talk, he is actually principled in his thinking, whereas a number of people maybe just say it and it's not really about that. Is that kind of.

[B]

Well, I think that, I don't know if it's about principle. I think maybe it is. I think maybe it's just about not giving a fuck about the audience or having cultivated a different kind of audience. I think a lot of people, people are scared to criticize Trump now. I'm talking about kind of right wing comedy world, manosphere stuff. I think a lot of them don't want to speak out against Trump because they don't want to deal with the hassle of people sending them nasty emails. I interviewed a barstool guy who spoke out against Trump recently for my channel and he was like, yeah, dude, I got fucking blown up on email by all these MAGA guys. Pissed, right? Kirk Minahan, good dude. And I think a lot of creators and commentators and stuff just don't want to deal with that. So if they disagree with Trump on something, they'll just be like, I'm not going to pretend like I agree with him. I'm just not going to talk about that issue. We'll talk about something else this week on the pod. And I think Tim Dillon just has a little bit more of a DGAF kind of attitude as evidenced by how he dealt with the Saudi Comedy Fest. And so to me, I just Think it's interesting because it's interesting to see what he picks up on, what are the things that he's mad about in the administration. And I'm just projecting that out. And you have to assume there is a category of people out there that voted for Trump who are not full maga, who are kind of, you know, just agree we're more culturally in tune with that part of the world. And you gotta assume there's kind of a representative body of dudes out there who are thinking the way Tim Dillon is thinking. And it's. And I think it's interesting to like, think about, okay, how can we kind of get to those people? Right? And that goes kind of back to our other topic about just not like casting everybody out. Right? Like, there are some hopeless Red hatted MAGA people that are never going to be gettable. There are also people that went along with Trump that are like everybody else, have good traits and bad traits and vote over Democrats in the past or maybe didn't vote in the past who are gettable. And thinking about them like that, I think is helpful about thinking about how to get out of this, that might.

[A]

Have connected more with his more populist talking points and supposed they don't play.

[B]

Out and all of a sudden they're like, wait a minute, you know what I mean? Wait a minute. And maybe they're never going to say, I got fooled. But maybe they're going to say, you know, Trump got. Whatever they need to say to rationalize it. You know, Trump got co opted by the deep state. Okay, yeah, fine. Trump got co opted by the deep state. Now let's, now let's have a conversation about, like, you know what, where we have agreements, because I don't know, I'm listening to Tim Dillon's podcast. I'm thinking we have more agreements than maybe we thought we did. If you listened to both of us last October, you wouldn't have thought we agreed on anything. And it turns out we agree on some things, you know, so.

[A]

But I mean, Tim, was there anyone, I hate saying the word like, I'm not disappointed, but was there anyone that you were maybe most surprised about that was that that went. I know that like Bill Burr was more surprising to me than like Kevin Hart was or. I mean, I know, I think Pete Davidson kind of like surprised a lot of people.

[B]

Yeah, I watched Pete Davidson on Theo and I saw his answer, which was kind of like, I don't even know what you're talking about. I don't pay attention to this. Like, if the check clears, I do it. And I guess I get that ethos. I was a little disappointed in Pete because I find him handsome. So that was maybe more of a personal issue. But all these guys, I'm like, I guess my big thing is I just don't get it. I think it's a bad cultural sign that there is not a little bit of shame associated with doing this. I'm not super big on virtue signaling and shit, but as a society, you would think that you would want to set that you would want to have a value that is money is really important and we support people going out there and working their ass off and getting money. But it's not so important that you go and whore yourself out to a bunch of people that behead people and kill journalists with bone saws. It's not really that worth it to do this solid for Saudi. And it'd be one thing if it was like, these are lower level comedians trying to get a first shot and are struggling, you know, struggling to put food on the table. Okay, like, if you're Aziz, if you're like Louis ck, like you really need an extra mill. Really, Like, I don't know. That's just not. That's just not me. I don't know. I have a lot of personal flaws as a human, but I, like, I'm not that. The greed one is my luck. I had a good mother. The greed one is not it.

[A]

So not taking $1 million to shoot some bulwark takes.

[B]

And I'm not going to do bulwark takes Belarus. Now that's not going to happen for, for, for me. I'm not going to do it.

[A]

Do you feel like they've maybe felt like it was safe? Because, like, we've seen the whitewashing through sports that we've seen like the whitewashing and I mean, it's even in the YouTube space to a certain degree. Oh yeah. I mean, do you feel like I.

[B]

Do live golf thing was like a real inflection point. Right. Like, if you go back and paid attention, that stuff I could have did because I had some friends who are dissidents, I guess you'd call them of the Saudi regime. So I've been following this from really when MBS took power. And the live golf thing was a big inflection point. And I was watching that very closely because you had my brother from another mother, Rory McElroy and some others who were really speaking out on this from a place of moral righteousness. There were some people that Were speaking out against it as, this is bad for the tour. And then others as from a place of moral righteous, like, we should not do this. This is wrong. We're all making a lot of money. We do not need to take blood money from the Saudis. And then there was a spin off group of people that were like, f you, we need to get ours, like Phil Nicholson and some others. And the fu. We need to get our argument basically won out. Rory ends up kind of conceding eventually that, like, well, I guess this has ended up being good for everybody. And I was like the turd in the punch bowl. And. And I thought that, like. So, yeah, I think that people got the message, like, from the culture that, like, this is the way that we're moving and this is okay. And I think that's really unfortunate, you know, like, I don't know. I'm a balance in all things, guys. You know, I don't want to. I don't want to live in a culture where everybody's, tsk, tsking people all the time, you know, and like ratting people out, you know, like, I don't want to be in that world. I think you can overstep on that, on moralizing for sure. But at the same time, in clear cases where it's just like, take blood money or don't, you would hope that the society would just kind of come together and be like, you know, this is like a norm of our society, that we don't want people to do this and we don't. And people, you'll be looked down upon if you do this. And I think maybe that would have been true 50 years ago in this country and it's just not now.

[A]

No, I think we are at a place where there's been such a rise of, I guess for back of a lack of a better term, bag getting culture where people are like, I mean, so you're not going to take generational money. You could do something with it. And everyone starts going into hypotheticals like that, you know, Chappelle is going to be donating all the Saudi money to, like, I don't know, his favorite whatever.

[B]

Some, you know, orphanage in Haiti or whatever. I was like, okay, like, sure, let's see it. I'm for that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know. There's also, like in this vice signaling culture, and I don't think this is all Trump, but Trump has accelerated this where people, like now, like, it is almost a value to say, I'm not one of those moralizing woke libs. Right. Like. Like. Like part of the culture is almost like, there's like this vice signaling of, like, you know, there's almost something good about being like, you know, I'm going to fucking get mine, or I'm going to say this thing that's. That hurts people's feelings, like, show that I'm free, you know, And I, again, I want people to be able to free. Be free to say if they want. Like, I really don't, like, care about that that much. But, like, if you get to a point where, like, you're now saying offensive things because you think that that is what the society rewards, that's where it tips over a little bit for me. And I do think that we kind of have tipped over into that, at.

[A]

Least for now, that you feel like.

[B]

We'Ve tipped over to a place where, like, people feel like society rewards, like, being a dick, you know, and, like, saying. You know what I mean? And, like, saying, like, oh, I don't care about this. Like, oh, I'm gonna take the Saudi blood money and I'm gonna go over there and I'm gonna make jokes where I say the R word. And, like, society's gonna reward me for that. And while you sit over there and, like, you know, are respectful to people and don't take the bag, you're the loser for not doing that. Right. Like, I think that. That.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think there's been a little bit of a change in that. And. And, like, there's always been. That's not like that. That ethos.

[A]

That's more of an evolution.

[B]

Yeah. But I just think it's more common now in a way that I don't love.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, it used to be like, okay, well, yeah, you do the. He's rough around the edges. And now it's like, no. Yeah. We reward the most toxic bullshit. And, yeah, there's always been a version of that. I mean, nice guys finish last, especially in business.

[B]

Has been Stern before. You know, before Stern got soft. That was his whole pitch back when we were growing up, you know, that he was a little more edgy. But even still, I just. I feel like it's kind of on steroids now. I don't know, Maybe this is old guy talk.

[A]

No, but then you. Then you have to, like, look at what the counter is, and, like, the. The counter that was around what the meta a few months ago was Superman saying, essentially, like, being nice as punk rock or some shit. Like, and it's like, is that. Is that the counter? I don't Know, I was like, I felt something, but I don't know if that was the bright. I don't know if that's the thing that makes the argument to not be shitty, competitive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Also it's, it's a fucking superhero movie. When you were talking about the, the Ryder cup or when you were Talking about Rory McElroy, did you watch the Ryder cup at all? Did you see any of the controversy of the.

[B]

Like, I saw the clips. We were doing a live show in Toronto and so I was like pretty busy over the weekend and traveling and stuff. So I. But I did see the clips. I saw the clip of my man Roll. Rory kind of at the front of the group of Europeans kind of gloating towards Donald Trump. And I did get a little bit of a smile about that. I mean, I'm a patriotic American, but I didn't hate that. And I saw like Rory kind of putting up at the crowd and giving them an fu. I saw that there was a clip of him like in his backswing and somebody was shouting nasty stuff at him and he told him to shut the stfu. You basically. So I saw some of it. I don't know if I thought it so closely.

[A]

Yeah, no, I was paying attention to it because I was like, finally something to talk to my brother in laws about. We have nothing in common. But I'm like, I saw a golf thing. Yeah, let's talk about that for 40 seconds. Maybe that'll spark.

[B]

Did it work? What did you. What was your takeaway?

[A]

Oh, no, that's. I'm planning for today. I was like, I try to disconnect from anything that could even be remotely a political conversation on Saturday and Sunday. And it's also probably why I'm not the best version of, of me doing my job right now.

[B]

You're doing great.

[A]

Because. Well, I think, I think that there is a. The people that do it 24 7. Yeah, that's a competitive advantage right now for sure. But I know, I know me, I've done this for 18 years. I'm like, if I do that, I won't be around to talk about the, the midterms. I'll be. I'll have gone to the island.

[B]

Yeah, no stroking out. Not the Epstein Islands.

[A]

Never come.

[B]

Not the Epstein Island. That's where Trump went. I just realized where Elon was invited too. Maybe didn't go and Trump didn't go. That we know. We don't know. We don't have all the files yet. No, I hear you on that. Checking out is good. So what was. So were you. Were you rooting for the Europeans? Where were you they. Deep down, were you kind of rooting for the Europeans even though you're an American?

[A]

No. I mean, anytime you kind of see the kind of, like, the shitty behavior, you're like, I hope. I hope you do something. But then everyone also loves a comeback story, and America, I guess, was coming back, and I was like, I don't know. Do I root for that? So I. As someone that is not heavily involved and doesn't know really any of the cast of characters, I was just. I was kind of just on the outskirts looking in, which is sometimes fun. Sometimes it's. It's nice to. To watch, like, some. Like, an MMA fight where I have no idea about the backgrounds, and I'm just, like, seeing some. Some stuff go down.

[B]

MMA is the area where I feel the most gay right now, because I don't. I have, like. I can't. I have, like, no connection to that culture at all. And I'm like, I'm pretty good. Like, I'm sports gay. I can bro down with you on golf or football or something, but there's something about MMA that I'm like, I don't get. Why you. What you gu into on this? I don't know. There's the one Peyton Talbot, the one handsome guy that's dating Frank Ocean, maybe rumored. So I kind of have come in through that way. Through, like, the People magazine kind of route of paying attention. But no, they had a big MMA fight here in New Orleans a couple months ago, and, like, all my buddies from college were, like, down for it, and we pregamed. I was just like, I can't. The whole culture around it feels very alien to me.

[A]

For me, it's. It's a. I have to go and see it in person because it, like, it sparks like some stupid fucking caveman thing in my head where it's like, blood sport.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, like, so if I go to. If I go to some UFC event, I'm there for the prelims because those guys are swinging.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I don't know. And I don't know, but there's some. But in my everyday life, I'm not. It's kind of like. It's not the same in any way. It's kind of like hockey. I love watching hockey in person.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm amazed by the sport, but I. I can't watch it on tv.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

It's weird. It's different. Last thing I'm going to ask you about before I let you go. You just had Ezra Klein on.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And you guys were talking, and I wanted to know your thoughts about the specific part of the interview. You guys were clipping it as well, where you asked him about his. His quote around Charlie Kirk did politics, Right? And at that point, when you asked the question, you saw the Internet's reaction to his article. But now you also have the reaction to you asking him about it and you navigating it. Was there anything that popped up or did you have anything?

[B]

I gotta say, I think a lot of folks on the left reaction to it was a little deranged. And I say that with love. I know deranged doesn't usually sound with love, but I'm like, I want to like Robin Williams, my listeners, or the people on Blue sky or whatever that were really, really triggered by the Ezra thing. I just want to hug Good Will Hunting, Robin Williams, like, hug him. It's like, it's going to be okay. It's going to be okay. You don't have to listen to Ezra if you don't want to. But, like, if Ezra's getting you this upset, you maybe need to find something else. Because they were upset at him essentially over that column. The one sentence was bad. He had one sentence in the column where he said, charlie Kirk did politics the right way. And I guess I just understood what he's trying to say because going all the way back, I used to go every year at Christmas to get in touch with what's happening on the right. I would go to the TPUSA end of year thing. It's called America Fest. It's like the week before Christmas. It's in Arizona. It's a nice excuse. I get a little tan, I go see what's happening in crazy worlds, right? And every time I came out of there, I basically said the same thing. Not that shark or extreme politics is the right way, like that his policies are right or that his rhetoric is good. And certainly his behavior around the stop the steal stuff was appalling and was not the right way to do politics. But in the narrow sense of, he's organizing people, he's getting them together, he's creating a community. They have camaraderie there. People who are not that political were getting sucked into it because they wanted to come, because it was kind of fun. The America Fest thing, it wasn't really fun for me per se, but I could assess that the people there were having fun. Girls were kissing boys. You know, it's a place to meet people. There's a religious element to it. For some people, there was always a place to kind of be spiritual. So there's a lot of nasty stuff happening on stage. But, like, the narrow this, the, like, politics strategy part, to me, I was always kind of impressed. I said this to Charlie, like, after, like, the last time I went, I said this to him, Andrew, who's kind of his right wing man. And I was just like, guys, I'm gonna write an article about all the crazy shit you guys said on stage. But at the beginning, I'm just gonna be like, we could lear from you. We being the pro democracy movement, like, there's nothing like this. And a lot of times when I go to pro democracy gatherings, they're kind of painful, actually. You know, they're not that fun, you know, and there's something to be. There's something we said for having fun. People want to have fun. People want to go to the party where everybody looks like they're happy, not the party where everybody looks like they're, like, sitting around lecturing you if you walk in because you aren't doing things the right way or not saying the right words. Right? And so in that sense, I understood what. What Ezra was saying, like, about. He phrased it wrong, right? Like, I understood what he's trying to say. And so I was like, there's no reason to get mad at Ezra over this. Like, there's no reason. And I think that people out there on the left, this is true on the right, too. But I just. I'm focusing right now on our listeners and people who are mostly. Some of them are former Republicans or whatever, but they're anti Maga. So people in the anti Maga movement, they, like, really need right now. I get. They want everybody to be like, this is awful. These people are awful. They, you know this. And there's like some emotional level at which people want that and need that, which I get in part because it's like, so fucking crazy that they're in charge. You know, people are, like, lost out there. Like, how did this happen? I always charge, I need you to affirm that I haven't lost my mind. Right? And so then this dissonance happens when somebody they respect or think that they like or think that's on their side, like Ezra Klein comes out and says, well, yeah, the people are bad, but, like, there's something we can learn from them and we should have some empathy towards them. There's some. Some percentage. I don't know what percentage. Some percentage. Audience like, reacts against that and just like, whoa, like, are you going to the dark side? Are you bad? You know what I mean? And I just think that there was that reaction to Ezra that I just find, like, Ezra is extremely progressive. Like, he's not aoc, you know, like, at times, you know, he's offered areas where maybe the Democrats should pull back from some of their excesses. So he's not like, in the 1% most progressive people in the country, but probably in the whole country. He's probably, like, in the most 15 or 20% most progressive people in the whole country. And in the whole commentariat, if his views are too extreme for you, you've put yourself in a pretty narrow corner. And so, I don't know, to me, I just. I don't agree with everything Ezra says. Obviously, I didn't agree with that one sentence. We went back and forth about that. I asked him, I was like, would you have written that sentence about Nick Fuentes? And it was basically like, no. He's basically like, there's a line somewhere. And he had.

[A]

What was that sentence?

[B]

The sentence of like, he did politics the right way. I don't have it in front, but like, that Charlie Kirk did politics the right way. Like, would you say Nick Fuentes did politics the right way? Like, no. No. Right. And so. So saying about Charlie was probably a little off. He probably should have said, we can learn from the way that Charlie. We can learn from some of the ways that Charlie did politics. Something like that, I think is accurate and more defensible. But he's writing fucking a lot of columns a week. That one line was a little off, but you don't go insane about it. And so anyway, I think that Ezra is extremely thoughtful about all this. You know, we're not always going to agree on everything. I think it's important for folks to hash this stuff out, though, and be able to do it, you know, without going so crazy that, like, we only accept information that fully aligns with our perspective.

[A]

When you said that, there was, like, people that kind of went a little bit crazy. Was it that. And you mentioned, like, are you turning to the dark side? Was it that people thought you were becoming pronobago or you were like, whitewashing? Yeah, I think whitewashing statements or like, what do you mean?

[B]

Yeah, I think whitewashing. I just think that, like, you're not, you know, that they're not up for the moment or whatever. You know what I mean? Like, that they're, you know, not, you know, you don't that they're not like, again, it goes back to kind of what we were talking at the beginning. Like, if your worldview is that we're in this internal civil war where you have to fight the other side at all costs, then, like, in a moment like this, you have to rhetorically fight the other side at all costs, right? And if Ezra was saying, well, no, actually at a moment like this, maybe we need to not rhetorically fight the other side, but we need to rhetorically try to figure out how to find common ground and how to de escalate, then if you're of the U of no, we need to fight at all costs, then you look at Ezra and you're like, you're kind of a traitor to our team here. You know what I mean? And to me, it's sort of like, yeah, we're in a very highly tense, really important, serious, competitive political environment, and we want the pro democracy, anti maga side to win at the ballot box and to win in people's hearts. And that means being smart and being strategic and trying to bring people in. You know what I mean? It means fighting for sure in certain times and not always. But I think that for some folks right now, they're so upset about the other side for good reason, that they just want constant, all gas, you know, no brakes. Fuck those guys. Fuck them to hell. We're going to beat them, we're going to take things back. And I have that wolf in me. Trust me, I do. But, like, I also think we need to recognize that, like, we need to live in a community with these people also with maggot folks, like, we need to figure out how to win some of them over. We need to, you know, and so I think that was kind of at the heart of this Ezra thing where, like, at this moment where some of his audience, in my audience, and, you know, some folks who want to fight Trump thought the Charlie Kirk assassination fallout was like a moment for, like, fighting them and reminding people how bad Charlie was. And Ezra was like, no, I actually think this is a moment for trying to, like, forge a bond through this crisis and de escalate. And I think that some folks didn't like that. And, and I, and I. And by the way, maybe the folks at Chris Hansen were right, but my point is, like, it's worth at least talking through that and thinking about it and having. And you know, Ezra's a smart, considerate, progressive person that wants at the end, the same thing you. We all want, right? We all want the same thing, which is like for. For this movement to be defeated at the ballot box. Right. And in the heart and people's hearts. And it's just a different way to go about it.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I mean, we'll see how the conversation continues to play out. We'll see how what happens at the ballot box and the lead up to it. But in the meantime, Tim, I just want to. I'm going to let you go so you can do your show today. But thank you so much for the time, dude.

[B]

I appreciate you having me. Let's do it again soon. We'll flip the mic soon, all right? Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

But that, dear listener, is the end of today's podcast. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, give it five stars on Spotify and Apple or give it a like on YouTube. Also, leave a comment on what you agreed with, disagreed with or who you'd like to see next as a guest. Thank you for watching I love yo faces and I'll see you next time.