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- [00:00]
A
Today's guest drove Barack Obama around in a van during the 2004 Senate campaign, and he eventually ended up in the White House Situation Room as NSC spokesman. And while that pipeline from campaign trail to the highest levels of national security policy is a wild story in itself, Tommy Vitor, he's spent the years since building crooked media and staying one of the sharper voices on foreign policy and political media. Today, we're diving into a lot. Trump's war with Iran, Macron's final year in office, and the ending of an era where the Democratic Party goes from here. And how a kid driving a van in Illinois ended up sitting in one of the most sensitive national security conversations in the world. Then really just so much more. Also on a personal note, I have now had all five of the Pod Save guys on the show, which, yes, completes my crooked media infinity gauntlet. While I figure out what to do with this, this new power, I just want to say I hope you enjoyed today's in good faith conversation. And to Tommy Vitor, welcome to DeFranco Save America. Okay, so, Tommy, right, right at the beginning, I just have to say, you know, you and your co hosts, you know, you, you've been saying the Democrats need to figure out how to win not just 2026, but 2028. Beyond that, right now, I want to ask you, what is, what is the single biggest thing that the Democrat Party is getting wrong? That's not Trump's fault. It's not the media's fault. It is just Democrats themselves. What are they doing badly?
- [01:06]
B
Oh, man. How much time you got? Look, I think there are a lot of Democrats who are working hard, who are trying to learn, who are doing smart things, who are showing leadership on various issues. Right. Like someone like Chris Van Hollen, probably a senator that a lot of your audience hasn't heard of has been a leader on, you know, when Trump was sending people down to gulags in El Salvador, has been a leader on Gaza policy, has been a leader on foreign policy generally. I think, though, the trouble we get in as a party is it's still hard not to make everything about Trump. And as his approval goes down, as everyone knows, this is likely to be a referendum on his leadership in his tenure in the midterms, I think it's comforting to see his numbers dip and to think that will mean we will be successful. But you're not seeing a commensurate rise in approval of the Democratic Party. People still don't know what Democrats stand for. They still don't trust that they fight for them. I think we have not done enough to get back to our roots as a party for working people and push more of a populist message. So I think that's a place where there's a lot of work I think we still need to do.
- [02:17]
A
Yeah, I do wonder how much the messaging around funding, obviously like Apex, the lightning rod where people are like, oh, is that Democrat going to be funded by aipac? But it does feel like also a big thing that's come up is who is being funded by AI companies. That's. That's kind of gotten underlooked. And I don't know if you see that there's any sort of rising sentiment or conversation around that.
- [02:37]
B
You know, it's very funny you raise that. I was getting in a really pissy text fight with a friend who's a member of Congress who has been historically a big supporter of the US Israeli relationship, is Jewish, and I think can sometimes take it very personally when people criticize AIPAC or his positions on Gaza, etc. And there is some real truth to that. There is some criticism you see about AIPAC or Israel that does have an underpinning of anti Semitism. But then there's people who are just angry about the policy. And this person, but he was making the point to me that the Democratic Party's broader problem isn't foreign policy. It's like being viewed as a corporate party and not foreign fighting for working people. And so I think it's a very important point that you're making because Apex, like one of many interest groups, but they're not all powerful, they're not 10ft tall. If you look at the companies with, or the, the super PACs and stuff with the most money, it's like the crypto guys. It's the AI folks. You know, there's billionaires and corporations that can pour basically unlimited amounts of money into these super PACs. And I think Democrats, I mean, those are sort of like new or emerging industries. So I think it's understandable that it will take some time to find your footing on what the right approach is to like AI, for example, from a legislative perspective. But I do think that when Barack Obama ran, we didn't take PAC money or lobbyist money. And I think trying to figure out areas where you can draw those distinctions that make you not just sound, but show that you are more connected with voters and grassroots donors and not just like big corporate interests, like, that's really, really important.
- [04:19]
A
I do get though, the, the focus on APAC for two reasons. One, obviously there's been a huge sentiment shift with Democrats. But then two, they seem to be at least social media wise trying to, if you're saying they're not as big as like Almighty, trying to make themselves seem that way. Like when they try to do like a victory lap after Kat Abu Ghazali didn't get the, didn't win the primary, it seemed like they were like, yes, we did it. And so I want to, I guess, connected to that, ask you, you know, you guys went from the Obama administration's default position on Israel, you know, support military aid, veto UN's resolutions, to publicly calling Israel's campaign in Gaza a genocide, demanding that Democrats cut billions in military aid, stop taking AIPAC money. I think, correct me if I'm wrong, I think you guys even called out Obama's $3.3 billion aid deal back in the day. I guess. Was there a specific moment that it kind of changed for y', all or has it is maybe I'm bulking you, you all together, so maybe there's like differing opinions, but was there a specific moment where, okay, we feel this certain way, we have this different thought and then is that connected to, okay, let's say it out loud with the cameras and the mics.
- [05:31]
B
Yeah. I mean, look, when you're in government, you know, my job was not to express my opinion. It was to sort of be a spokesman for Barack Obama. Right. So I was in the White House from 202009 to 2013, and that was my job. And through that time, though, I look up, I was a, I worked in foreign policy and national security primarily and saw Bibi Netanyahu up close from early on in that tenure through the very end. And I'm proud to say that I've hated that asshole since 2009. He's a terrible person. He's a corrupt, racist, right wing, authoritarian monster who I think is really like one of the great villains of this period of time we're living in. But that's a criticism of him as an individual, not a religion. Right. It's, it's like in the same way, I'm not a huge fan of Donald Trump. That doesn't mean I hate America. And I think those distinctions get, get lost regarding aipac. Like, yeah, I think, look, obviously a big part of the reason people focus on AIPAC is the horrible wars that have been ongoing since, you know, the last couple years. Right. The people are horrified by what's happening in Gaza. And now I'm horrified by what's happening in Iran. For me, though, the, the evolution of my willingness to speak out about these issues came in part from my decision to leave government and kind of burn the boats and not want to go back into for government again or foreign policy, sort of like circles again. Because unfortunately it is a well known thing in D.C. circles that if you are too critical of the Israeli government or speak out against AIPAC or, you know, say the wrong things in certain instances, you will not get hired again by members of Congress. You will not be able to get Senate confirmed in jobs. It just breeds a lot of caution. And I think that is a real problem. And I think people should worry less about that and worry more about good policy. And speaking honestly, especially in the face of, you know, horrible wars like we saw in Gaza or what's happening now in Iran.
- [07:33]
A
So, I mean, the Obama administration, right, they refused to sell tankers and certain munitions to Israel, believing, you know, they would likely strike Iran with it. Were you involved in those conversations?
- [07:43]
B
No. I mean, I was involved in a lot of the early on Middle east peace fights. And a lot of it was over whether or not trying to get the two sides to the table, begin a process and like kind of the preconditions that would be necessary for that to be a constructive negotiation, which often revolved around Israeli settlement, construction in the west bank and demands that they stop it. And I think with the benefit of hindsight, and probably could have was knowable at the time, Bibi Netanyahu just like didn't want a peace deal, he didn't want to create a Palestinian state. He says as much now and he's just a bad actor. And so, you know, I was around for some of the, like, very early diplomatic frustration. But, you know, in the background of those conversations, Obama was pushing back on Israel and saying he did not want to go to war with Iran, he would not bomb them on their behalf. You know, he wanted to take a diplomatic approach, which Netanyahu fought as hard as he could. But ultimately we got the JCPOA done.
- [08:42]
A
Do you feel like that refusal, it was kind of successful in delaying an attack?
- [08:47]
B
I do, I do. I think Netanyahu has always known that there were certain parts of Iran's nuclear infrastructure or some of the facilities they had that were so far dug into the side of a mountain that only the US could could take them out. And so his options were get the US to bomb these places for him or do an incredibly risky and dangerous like commando operation to put boots on the ground at these sites. That would probably lead to mass numbers of casualties, and you can understand why he wouldn't want to do that. So certainly the JCPOA was, in my view, much preferable to what we're seeing now, which is like sort of every six months, ten months, bombing campaigns. That doesn't actually deal with the nuclear program or the nuclear risk in Iran permanently.
- [09:33]
A
Yeah. I mean, one of the things I think back to with that, obviously I need to fully put it in my rear view eventually, but it makes me think of the last election and how it felt like Harris was getting kind of eaten from both sides of like, she wasn't doing enough for Israel, but she was doing too much for Israel. And one of the things then with y' all that came to mind is, you know, after Harris lost, you guys interviewed the senior campaign staff on the show. And it felt like when I was going through, and maybe it was anecdotal, it felt like the response from the audience was brutal. I don't know if that was your experience with it as well, but. But it felt like, you know, people felt like the campaign was like, deflecting blame with, like, political headwinds and kind of like refusing to acknowledge errors. And I mean, looking back around, I don't know how much we can actually do it because it's. We're inundated with so much every day and we're having to constantly look forward. But on the occasion that you ever think back or look back, do you think you gave them too soft of a. A platform? And then I'll connect a question to that kind of more broadly, is there a version of Ponzi of America that can be both, like, this friendly platform for Democrats and also a place where there's like, a genuine accountability mechanism?
- [10:46]
B
Yeah. So on the. So first of all, on the interview itself, it wasn't a group thing. It was. It was Dan Pfeiffer who did the interview. So I don't want to, like, speak for him or how he would view that.
- [10:56]
A
I'm gonna bulk you guys together.
- [10:57]
B
That's okay.
- [10:58]
A
Single.
- [10:58]
B
We're like the same similar sort of person who all worked in the Obama administration, similar ages. And I think Dan's approach on that interview was from the perspective of someone who has run a presidential campaign or worked in the highest level in a White House or a presidential campaign and understands how hard it is. Understands how hard it is when you kind of get thrown in, in the last hundred days to replace a wildly unpopular president who was self evidently too old to be running for reelection. But made a selfish, arrogant choice to do so. Any. And now you're kind of holding the bag for all of his fuck ups. Right. And so I understand that there were people who wanted Dan to be tougher on them or demand answers or call up bullshit and like it's totally legitimate to feel that way. But I think Dan's perspective was these are people I know, I've worked with, I know how hard their jobs are. My goal here is to just sort of like get information out of them about what they think happened. Right. And I think everyone else on the Internet has their own view and they, they voice it and that's, that's how it should be in terms of the accountability for us. I think the accountability moment came more after the Democratic Party debate and Joe Biden's debate with Donald Trump because there's a version of like you saw it in a lot of other progressive media spaces where they're like, it wasn't so bad. And you know, he showed up the next day and did this rally and then he did a press conference and everything is fine. Right. And it just, it was self evidently not fine. It was a disaster. It was the worst debate performance ever. And I think speak.
- [12:28]
A
Did you, did you publicly call Biden to step aside after?
- [12:32]
B
Yeah, we, we, we recorded that. So we were in Boston, we were on the road, remember we'd like rented a, you know, we had a hotel room. We were all watching together and we were recording in it after. And within five minutes into the debate everyone's like, this is a nightmare. And that night said as much, said it was, you know, the worst debate performance in history and that this should start a conversation about whether he needs to step aside. I think in that moment it kind of didn't. Look, it was, I can't remember how far we leaned into it. I think everybody was sort of like, what are they going to do the next day? But as things got worse and worse and worse, we kept pushing both on the pod and on social media.
- [13:13]
A
And I mean now looking back on that, I feel like you were very happy and with yourselves as far as doing that because it does feel like, and it was like the first six months every politician was getting hit because it was believed like they, they secretly knew that he really wasn't there and it wasn't just a bad performance.
- [13:32]
B
Yeah, look, I'm, for me, look I, I'm more of a half class full person on that whole election. Like I, I knew I'm going to
- [13:41]
A
ask you to, I'm going to Ask you to expand on how the glass half full part.
- [13:45]
B
Well, I just lost, right? And so when I look back, I'm like, I'm not happy that I said Joe Biden should drop out after the debate. I'm mad at myself for not being louder, that he shouldn't have run for reelection. Would it have made a difference? Probably not, because I think that Joe Biden made the decision with a couple family members and a couple of close advisors, and it seems obvious that good information was not getting to him. He was getting bullshit polling and spun and just sort of happy talk from the staff around him. Because if you think about D.C. the president of the United States is the sun, and everybody orbits around the sun. And the closer you are in that orbit, the more important the DC people think you are. So there's this vested interest in the closest people around him to kind of cling to that position in power for as long as they can, even when they're harming their boss. And I think that's what happened here. So what I think about is we talked about Joe Biden's age a lot on the show. We talked about our concerns that it was insurmountable. We talked about the ways that we would recommend that he try to assure voters that, in fact, he was up for the job. But, like, I never thought he actually was able to do that. You know, we tried to approach it from, like, a constructive perspective. Whereas, you know, in hindsight, maybe it would have been better to say, look, the guy's too damn old, he should drop out.
- [15:08]
A
And, I mean, when you're talking about, you know, I wish that maybe I had been louder, I guess, to a certain degree. Do you feel like even saying it after the debate at the. At the level that you did, that there was sort of an impact there, or. No, it was just. I don't know if you helped rally the charge or. I mean, do you feel. Because there is a power to a certain degree, and we're going to get into, like, what you're trying to accomplish with the shows, but do you feel like you had an impact? Like, if we never know, if you go back, you don't do it. You have a different take. Do you think it plays out different or. No, that was too big.
- [15:45]
B
I think it was perceived as meaningful at the time because we were viewed as sort of like insiders and Biden connected people. And therefore, the willingness to just sort of like, say what everyone saw was seen as notable because so much of politics is like play acting and rooting for Your team at all times and acting like things are okay when they're not. And the fact that we didn't do that, I think it made news, it got attention. I also think that the Biden people elevated us strangely by attacking us. They went after the show. One of the staffers sent out a memo referring to self important podcasters doubting Joe Biden. It was just obviously a shot at us, which is fine. And look, again, what makes this hard sometimes is we know these people, we know they're doing their best. Like you've been in those jobs. You know how hard it is. Ultimately, if Joe Biden had stayed in and had to run again, I had to live with the fact that I was making it harder for him to get reelected based on the things I was saying. Right. So that's kind of what's in the back of my head. I don't think we were the reason he dropped out. Not even close. But I do think that it definitely was. It had an impact in those early days.
- [17:03]
A
Yeah. And I mean with that impact. Right. One of the things that I sometimes wonder about my show or any show out there, and I wonder if you think about it with Pod Save, but you know, a lot of the time you're talking to people who already agree with you. Right. You know, but do you think there is a world where, you know, psa, it actually changed someone's mind who wasn't already a Democrat, or do you see the real value of the shows as something different, that it's really more about activation of people that are already aligned with you?
- [17:37]
B
It's a great question. Something I think about a lot. Weirdly, in the beginning, the first few years of the show and maybe still today, I would always have people say to me, we listen to you, I listen to you and Ben Shapiro, it was like we were seen as kind of a balanced news diet for a lot of folks. And I don't know if that meant they were progressive and they like to like dabble in conservative talk or they're conservative and they dabbled in progressive talk. But I heard that a lot and I've. And more recently I've heard like, oh, I listen to you guys in Tucker, which is interesting to sort of see this evolution. So I do think there are people who are. Who listen to Pod Save America, who aren't just the choir now. I do think we do a lot of preaching to the choir. And I think our. When we started the company, if you think back to the 2016 campaign, remember you'd be like watching CNN, you'd be trying to figure out what was happening. And instead of getting news, you would get a panel of like 17 people on a set, including that guy Jeffrey Lord, who was like the one Trump person. They'd be yelling at each other and you'd end it and you'd feel dumber and bored and just like frustrated with the world. And what we wanted to do was overtly activist media, which not only told people, okay, you know, you're upset about the election, here's what you can do about it. And by the way, it's not going to be a one shot thing. It's not going to. There's no quick fix. It's going to be like an ongoing process of engagement in citizenship. So I do think that's the real value of the company and the show. Like, after RBG died, right, we were able to help raise a ton of money for Senate candidates by talking about the stakes of the Supreme Court. But it's a little. The data is. We don't have great data on the podcast side, but on the YouTube side, like, that's where you see the explosive growth, right? You see, all of a sudden you ride that algorithm tiger somehow. And like some weird thing we did on south park has a million views and you're like, okay, well, this is, this is surprising.
- [19:25]
A
You mentioned Tucker. I have to ask, are you the, are you the demon that attacked Tucker?
- [19:30]
B
Sleep paralysis demon. That story is so funny, man. Because, like, I love that you could do that.
- [19:35]
A
You could say that and then just like, continue your job.
- [19:39]
B
Well, the funny thing of, okay, he says he's in bed with four dogs. Presumably one of the dogs scratched him. Right?
- [19:47]
A
Okay. I was like, there's nothing wrong with this story. I was like, I'm fine. I was like, I'm pro four dogs.
- [19:52]
B
My dog sleeps on my head. I'm just saying, if I woke up with scratches, I would be like, oh, Luca, you scratched me. I just think that's what happened. Tucker's such an interesting character. Jason Zengerly, great author of the New York Times, wrote a book about him. It's called Hated by All the Right People. We released it, it came out under our imprint, and it's an amazing sort of like, tour through his life as sort of a truly one of the most talented magazine columnists out there, sort of establishment conservative to where he's become today. And I'll just tell you, during last year, right before the last war with Iran, I saw Tucker speaking out against it. I got his phone number from somebody And I reached out to him and I said, hey, this is who I am. I've talked shit about you aggressively, many times, just in full disclosure. Would you like, though, to have a conversation about what's happening in Iran and your opposition? Because I find it interesting and principled and I think it would send a message to, like, D.C. that the two of us were having that conversation. And he called me and it was an off the record conversation, but he called, like, right away and he was, he said, look, I can't do this for the following reasons. And then we just chatted for 15 minutes. And I was like, when we hung up, I thought, oh, this is why people like this guy. He, he is charming and he is funny and I get it. And then every once in a while, he'll slip in something that's so conspiratorial. You are sort of like trying to duck to see where that came from. Because it just feels like out of left field.
- [21:19]
A
Is that part of the Trump appeal? Because it feels like everyone that talks about him is just like, oh, when he's there with you, his personality, it's just like a hug for your soul.
- [21:29]
B
Yeah. He is so clearly good at the personal politics and, like, from the outside, it feels like that would not be his vibe because he's such a narcissist and, you know, constantly talking about himself. But I don't know if you. I was watching Mark Wayne Mullet's. Mark Wayne Mullen's confirmation. Mark Wayne Mullet. That's a good.
- [21:48]
A
That's a funny. I like that.
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B
That's funny.
- [21:49]
A
I didn't know if it was on purpose.
- [21:50]
B
Mark Wayne Mullen, the new DHS secretary's confirmation hearing, and Mullen had a kid who had some sort of severe medical thing happened. Trump heard about it, called him right away, helped the kid get into a better hospital, then called every single day during the campaign to check on him. And it was like, literally the nicest thing I'd ever heard said about Donald Trump. And I think it spoke to that sort of personal political ability to kind of like make you feel loved.
- [22:16]
A
Yeah. I mean, whether it's him or. Well, at least Bill Maher for a minute, just. He has, he has this like, witchcraft.
- [22:24]
B
He does. And some of it's the office, but some of it is clearly. I don't know, there's. The guy's also funny, you know, like, we sometimes Democrats get so serious and like, I'll watch a Trump clip or an event, and I know he's being offensive at saying shitty Things but like he makes that crowd laugh and they love it.
- [22:42]
A
Oh yeah, the delivery. Absolutely, absolutely. So actually on the note of having like that extra thing I want to do kind of a few fast questions, but you can also.
- [22:51]
B
Sure, sure.
- [22:52]
A
People, people, elaborate. Who do you think is the most talented Democrat under 50 that nobody's talking about?
- [22:57]
B
I think people are talking about him. But he gets less shine than I think he will after his reelection if he wins, which is Jon Ossoff. I think John Off's wild. John Ossoff is wildly talented.
- [23:07]
A
I'm so glad you said this because all of a sudden everyone's acting like this guy just started existing four months ago. And I've been, I said to someone that I think was working on his campaign because I've been doing more local stuff here. I've mentioned to people, I've been like, I would say like if O can win, he's like my dark horse candidate. And all of a sudden now, now all of a sudden all these people are saying it. I'm like okay, but that it also makes me realize how much of this is just vibes.
- [23:32]
B
Oh yeah.
- [23:33]
A
At this, at this stage. Right. Because I've, I've said similar things and I'll get for it. I've said similar things for a while about AOC over whatever time period. Right. There's just something there regarding the, the person about personality and the care and, and the belief and I've talked to people that would. That are saying, you know, I'll vote for AOC or Ossoff. And I'm like. But. And even though the politics are obviously not, they're not one to one. And so how much of it is. Yeah. Just vibes. I don't, I don't know.
- [24:01]
B
I think it's vibes. I think it's delivery. I mean Ossoff. Look, AOC and Ossoff are very different in that the thing I think is so credible about her is like the whole, the fact that she was a bartender like what, six, seven, eight years ago. Right. Like that means she's just more connected to the average person's existence than almost anyone else in the U.S. senate or the House of Representatives. And I remember when I started working for the Obamas and they were. Started running for, he started running for president. They would talk about the fact that they were pretty normal most recently as compared to their colleagues. Hillary Clinton hadn't driven a car in 30 years cuz she had someone, you know, Secret Service driving for. But the Obama said like lived in a little Condo. I saw it. You know, they, they just paid off their student loans. Like they understood the normal American's existence or existence better than almost anyone. I think AOC has that Ossoff. When I see Ossoff, I think he's tall, he's good looking, he could deliver a line. Well, he's really thought hard about his message. But he also strikes me as someone who's like, he's decided to be a serious person and he projects that right in a. In a way that's very different than her. But I think it's quite. It's quite compelling.
- [25:11]
A
Yeah, the stuff you mentioned at the beginning, it's very much. It passes the Scott Galloway test. If he's like, we need a strong pretty man. We need a strong. Pretty bad. Who's there? Who is a Republican that you genuinely respect?
- [25:24]
B
Rand Paul, don't agree with him. Thomas Massie is in a similar place. But these are people that take a lot of shit from their own party for taking principal positions. Ones that I don't always agree with, but I think it takes guts to do that. Right? Thomas Massie has got a primary campaign being funded by Trump lackeys because he won't bow down to the Trump all the time.
- [25:48]
A
Yeah, I like that you said that because this is a thing. I extended it to Marjorie Taylor Greene with asterisks. But I do think that there is a credit because so many of the people that do speak up, you start saying former in front of their name, right? And so the fact that they're doing it still fighting, you have to give them at least props for that. And then when they fuck you on other stuff, you know, still call it out. But I like that.
- [26:13]
B
And look, the reason I'm a hypocrite is because John Fetterman drives me insane.
- [26:18]
A
Oh, come on. There's nothing wrong with turning on Fetterman because he. Have you, have you gone back and watched videos of this man campaigning and you're just like, who are you?
- [26:25]
B
I know.
- [26:26]
A
Who is this different man?
- [26:27]
B
The fact that he's, like, found his niche kind of being antagonistic about wanting to kill more people in Gaza, in Iran, it's just. It's so gross and bizarre. I don't understand it.
- [26:37]
A
So there's already that level of it. But then people that act tough because other people are going to fight because they have the power, like, that's just. I mean, to use right wing. It's beta bitch shit. Anyway, why am I saying this? I have a pod save guy.
- [26:52]
B
I got to keep it clean beta all day. All day.
- [26:59]
A
I'll get you right back to the pod in just a minute. But first, let me say, you know, spring's here, y', all, and if your yard's still looking like it's been on permanent vacation, it's time to make a change. And that is why I'm excited to share Today's sponsor, Fast Growing Trees. They are the largest online nursery in the US and they've got everything from fruit trees to privacy trees, flowering trees, shrubs, and more. And no, you don't need a massive yard. Just plug in your location and they'll show you plants and trees that actually thrive in your area. Which is great if you prefer not to accidentally buy something that your yard immediately rejects. And the best part, you know, forget about that hassle of shopping in store. You just click order and have plants delivered to your door in a few days. And every plant, it comes with their alive and thrive guarantee, so it arrives healthy and thriving, no green thumb required. Plus, their plan experts are available seven days a week to help you plan and choose the right plants for your space. Fast Growing Trees is awesome because they make planting effortless, and their support team gives you I'm a total pro vibes in the garden. And now's the perfect time to plant. Just head to fast growingtrees.com IGF and use code IGF at checkout to get 20% off your first order. That's fast growingtrees.com IGF code IGF offers valid for a limited time. Terms and conditions may apply. Is Joe Rogan good or bad for political discourse?
- [28:04]
B
I could argue it both ways. So he's talking to millions and millions of people, and maybe he's the only political or current events news that they're getting, right? I mean, on some level, he's informing the masses. Now, the counterpoint to that is it's often people that are not experts in what they're talking about or even well informed. There's too much emphasis on conspiratorial stuff. Like I, I always think of this, this article I read about this documentary called Loose Change, which your listeners might know is like kind of the OG conspiracy theory video about the 911 attacks being staged in like, you know, jet fuel, won't melt, steel beams, all that shit. The early copies of of Loose Change were mailed out with cassettes and Joe Rogan was one of the earliest purchasers. And I think, really, I think that tells you a lot about his kind of worldview and how he's been informed. Coming up So I don't know. I don't want to say he's bad. I'm loath to say he's bad because at least he's engaging on these topics. I do wish. I do worry that the more sort of like, rich and cocooned in this bubble in Austin he has become, the more impenetrable it's become to, like, opinions that he does not agree with or that in any way attack his kind of milieu.
- [29:28]
A
Yeah, I haven't, I haven't watched a ton recently. I think where I started kind of falling off was when I started seeing. Because he. It was still during a time where he would bring people on that had conflicting views, but then seeing how kind of like, easygoing he was with someone that had views on the right versus someone that was either pro vaccine or something that was on the left. It was just, it was very different. It wasn't. I'm hearing people out. I wasn't. Because there also was a time, and, you know, it was initially a criticism where he kind of just adopted the viewpoint of whoever he was he was speaking to. It was like kind of that, that thing where people would even compare him to Trump to some, to some degree.
- [30:03]
B
Yeah. I think, like, the argument that he's bad for the world is the vaccine stuff, because I think, look, I'm, I'll be the first to admit that the novel coronavirus and the debate around the vaccine for it was unique and hard for people and emotional. And there was a lot that the health experts screwed up at the time, and there's reason for mistrust. But I've heard Rogan talk about the polio vaccine not working and suggesting that that was. There's no evidence for it. And, like, that stuff, I think is, like, quite, quite dangerous.
- [30:36]
A
Where he pops up for me now is when he. There are those videos where it's like, even Joe Rogan called out Trump. But then we get into this kind of debate of how, how helpful is it moving forward? And then that gets kind of connected to people saying, okay, what's, what's someone that voted for? Or what do you call someone that voted for Trump three times and then said, like, ah, he's not my guy anymore. And people saying, you know, it's a JD Vance, a Rubio voter. Right. So are those people actually movable? And it brings back to what you're saying of Democrats needing to have messaging other than Trump Bad. Trump Bad can be part of the messaging because you just look around, you fill up your gas tank. Okay. You look at a number of factors in life. You see it.
- [31:17]
B
Yeah, look, I do that a lot too. I constantly am clipping like what Sean Ryan said about Trump, who's another military YouTuber with a huge following, or what did Joe Rogan say? Some criticism of Trump. And I think it's valuable in that the Trump coalition this last time kind of like was the MAGA base and it was some married women that kind of peeled off from the Democratic Party and it was all these young men who are first time voters. And I'm happy to see a lot of them abandoning Trump. I think the question is abandoning for what? And I worry it's just kind of like abandoning him for nihilism or not voting.
- [31:51]
A
What do you think the worst political take you've ever had is? I was trying to think of this for myself and I still haven't come down to it. I need to dedicate some time.
- [31:58]
B
My worst political take by far was Hillary Clinton can't lose. Just the arrogance leading into the 2016 election, the dismissal of Trump, the lack of stepping out of conventional wisdom and kind of like what the experts were saying and what the polls were saying to think, you know what, throughout our history we have seen right wing populists who appear to be buffoons who are saying the same sorts of things. America first demagoguing immigrants or Muslims or some other out group. And that has been incredibly politically effective, especially when it comes on the heels of, you know, economic anger and anxiety and hardship over the course of a year basically since the financial crisis or a decade since the financial crisis. So could not have gotten 2016 more wrong if I tried. Well, I guess I did try. So how about that?
- [32:56]
A
Well, I will say, I mean, you've even said like, if Hillary Clinton had won, crooked media probably would have stayed a hobby. Right. So I mean, that's the unfortunate thing. For a lot of things I was going to, if Kamala won, I was going to start winding down the show. So I can relate to a certain, to a certain degree. But I mean, it is then wild to imagine or to think of what has kicked off for you guys. Because when you were talking about money being raised, is it, is it right? I feel like I remember seeing this figure. Y' all have raised over $70 million through Vote Save America.
- [33:27]
B
Yeah, look at a lot of that was like just when major events would occur, trying to help people get a link to an ActBlue, like to act blue page. So went directly to the campaign or cause itself. Right. We didn't want to like Funnel this stuff through us now. More recently, we started Vote Save America has become a pack for a bunch of legal reasons that are boring. But. But, yeah, that was something we're very proud of. Like, I think what makes what we do at crooked media different, what positive America does, is we're, like, not just overtly partisan, but overtly activist. We knock on doors ourselves, we donate to candidates, we, you know, push people to support individuals. That's, I think, what makes it different, I think, and makes it, I don't know, feel more true to us. Because I think, you know, there was this sense of, like, false objectivity that just didn't work for me.
- [34:19]
A
Yeah, I don't know. I just. I just. I do like to think of what came from. I mean, you even saying, like, it was a wrong thing or a failure, all that's kind of stemmed from it and how often that can happen.
- [34:30]
B
I'm just like a huge butterfly wings guy. Like, the worst things that have happened to me in my life, if I think about them today, I wouldn't change a thing because I feel like it got me from here to there. Just, you know, because I don't know, it's a fate.
- [34:45]
A
I want to talk about Pod Save the World specifically because you've said that, you know, it's about kind of recreating the phone call you used to make at the nsc, calling the expert, hitting mute, learning alongside the reporter for something that's around. Foreign policy. Right. Do you think that Americans actually want to understand foreign policy, or do you think they want to feel they understand it or be armed for some sort of debate?
- [35:15]
B
I think there's a subset of people that really care deeply about the world and want to understand it better. So basically, for your listeners, I worked on Obama's campaigns from 2004 to 2009, went to the White House, and then started working on national security issues. And then in 2011, I got promoted to the national security staff proper. So I didn't really know what the hell I was talking about. I was learning on the job. And a lot of my job was just getting people information about what Obama was doing or an issue. And so some really smart reporter would call and they'd say, I want to learn about what you guys are doing on Cuba. And I'd patch them through to this expert we had on staff, and I'd shut up and listen. And the early iterations of Pod Save the World were a lot of that. Like me going back to the well of all these experts I knew and loved and kind of like pulling as much information out of them as I could. And then Ben Rhodes, my co host, moved to la. We started doing it together weekly and now it's just become a weekly conversation, if not more, about the biggest things happening in national security and foreign policy in the world. And like, the perspective we try to apply to it is what can Washington do about it? Or what should they be doing about it? And I really do think, you know, it's my favorite thing I get to do every week. I really do think there's an audience out there of people who are incredibly intellectually curious, want to know more, want to understand more, but can be gatekeeped by the subject matter because there's all these acronyms, right? And like, people treat you like you're stupid if you don't know certain things. And I went through that myself and I think, you know, when we do this show, well, we try to like, push that crap aside or at least explain the basics of an issue and kind of like ladder people up to the more complicated part. But I do find that there is a real genuine interest from folks in like, the wonkiest kind of sweetest way
- [37:02]
A
possible for those that don't have it initially. Do you ever think of how you can make people care about something that's happening, happening to people far, far away? Yeah, because I, I know that when we've covered stories, there's, there's kind of like tips and trip tricks to, to make things relatable. I think even it's, I mean, it's a very dark way to look at it. But I think it's why when we're talking about war or attacks, people talk about figures in women and children. I think like those things of, oh, well, I have a kid. Oh, I have a wife. And maybe it makes it more approachable because, I mean, when I talk about USAID and you know, we were talking like when DOGE was destroying that, and we're talking about the numbers. It's, the numbers are so big that it's hard to comprehend, right? You, it's, it's like a bomb going off every single day. If you're talking about the, the, how it's going to impact. So do you have, do you have any thoughts on how to make people care?
- [37:58]
B
Yes, I, I, I think you, like, you just nailed it. Which is when you talk about statistics, it can be numbing. Millions of people died, you know, millions of people displaced. If you can figure out that individual story or anecdote, or better yet, like, get a Voice note from the person who's living through this nightmare themselves, or interview them, or lift up this example of like one individual and their suffering and their story. I think that is what's, I think is so powerful and compelling. And it's something we, we try to do. Like, we've been trying every week to get someone in Iran to like, either talk to us or send us an update or something, but the Internet's been down, right? So, like, it just. And also, like you, it's hard to protect people from the regime if they're speaking out and sending you that stuff. But like, that's kind of like what we endeavor to do don't always succeed, but it's I think, the best way to make people care.
- [38:52]
A
And for you specifically, I mean, when you were talking, we were talking about, you know, you're someone that's actually sat in a situation room, right? You were the, the NSC spokesperson. When, when you watch everything with Iran unfolding, right, what do you see that maybe the average person watching cable TV or watching even these podcasts doesn't?
- [39:10]
B
Back in the day, when I was there, there was a system and process in place that didn't guarantee a good outcome, but a bad process and bad planning, I think can guarantee a bad outcome. And that's what we're seeing now. So back in the day, in the run up to something like a war or an invasion, the national security staff would convene the government and all of its agencies. So it would start at a low level, then the deputies of all the agencies would get together, the Deputy Secretary of State, deputy Secretary of Defense. Then their bosses would get together and then the final decisions would come to the President and he would make them and sign off and you'd march out. But what those lower level conversations did was really try to like red team stuff, think through all the downside risks. Think of all the planning and communication you would need to do, like the hundreds of cables you would send to every embassy and who would be calling who, right? Like I think about the bin Laden operation, for example. Like there was a book this thick of what was going to happen the minute the mission itself was executed to ensure that, you know, the Pakistanis didn't break off relations with us for a decade, for example. And when I see what's happening now with Iran, you can just tell that planning did not happen. There basically isn't a national security staff anymore. Marco Rubio is both the national security adviser and the Secretary of State, which, like, is just not any. No one can do both of those jobs. Those are big jobs. And so. But when I read anecdotes in the paper like the, the nation's strategic petroleum Reserve was only 60% from full at the outset of the war. Knowing full well the Iranians would likely, you know, block the Strait of Hormuz and cut off flows like that seems to be just like a glaring example of zero planning happening.
- [40:56]
A
What are you talking about? Trump said no one knew this could happen.
- [40:59]
B
Yeah, no one knew. No one knew. It's like, I'll talk to all these. All these, like, amazing, sweet. Why do I infantilize them? All these, like, brilliant nerds I talk to who work on Iran policy where, like every war game we've ever been to that, like, kind of games out a US Iran conflict ends with the straight hormones being mined or close in some way. It's like, every time.
- [41:20]
A
Yeah, I loved that he said that. And then of course, immediately there's reporting there. Like, actually there was this. Although we're also seeing reporting that part of his briefs is that he gets like essentially a two minute highlight cut of bombs. Have you seen, I mean, I imagine you've seen this and probably talked about it already.
- [41:33]
B
Dude. No, I read that this morning. It sounds like he gets like a two minute snuff film every morning of like.
- [41:38]
A
Yeah, just like airstrikes, Trump talk. Just, he's like, here you are, sir. Here's your, here's your personal feed.
- [41:43]
B
It's crazy. Like, it just. This is like quite literally what happened in Vietnam, which is like they'd sent out General Westmoreland to be like, we bombed this many people, we killed this many, you know, Viet, you know, the Viet Cong today. It's like, that doesn't add up to a victory.
- [41:57]
A
Well, yeah, I mean, are you of the mindset that no matter what happens from here, he's just kind of a different level of screwed? And so to a certain degree, we as Americans are a certain level of screwed, because I've seen economists saying that even if, you know, he claimed victory and backed off, the world as we kind of knew it and the systems in place are kind of irreversibly changed. Is that, is that your understanding?
- [42:20]
B
Yeah, I mean, I was talking to an expert on this yesterday who wrote a book about, like, economic choke points and their vulnerability in war. And I asked this person, you know, how long, if the war ended today, the war ended today, how long would gas prices or energy prices be elevated? And this person said, years. And that's because not just Brent crude prices or the price of oil and ends up in your gas tank. But natural gas, the Qatari natural gas fields that were bombed, they said that 17% of their capacity is going to be offline for three to five years. So that will just impact the entire world. And then on top of that, I mean, you've already had this huge choke point for fertilizer supplies, which could lead to, you know, developing in poor countries, not having enough fertilizer and not being able to plant their crops and people starving. So I think. I think at this point, like, the toothpaste is out of the tube, the best outcome is a war that ends today. The second best is a war that ends tomorrow. But I'm worried. You know, I just saw reports this great reporter I follow named Alex Ward at the Wall Street Journal reported that three Republican, like, senior members of Congress are talking about a ground operation like it's kind of about to happen.
- [43:31]
A
Well, it does feel like, based off of every time, it's like we're going to negotiate for this certain amount of time, it does feel like he's just waiting for the markets to close so that he can do the next thing and then also say a thing on Monday where he pulls back, but if we do boots on the ground, he can't pull back.
- [43:44]
B
Right, Exactly.
- [43:45]
A
Yeah.
- [43:46]
B
The Monday announcement, like it really. So the tale of the tape the last couple days was Trump threatened Iran that if they didn't open the Strait of Hormuz within 48 hours, we'd start bombing their power plants, which is a bunch of war crimes, but whatever. Then Monday morning, he wakes up and he sees the Asian stock markets are way down, the European stock markets are way down, S&P 500 futures are way down. So he says, you know what? Nope. Let's hit pause for five days, which, as you just noted, will be when the markets close again. But I think it's just. It's just telling the markets what they want to hear. Manipulation.
- [44:18]
A
I want to switch from that guy back to you real quick. Something that you mentioned as far as, like, your rise. So you. You went from driving Obama's press van during rural Illinois, or across rural Illinois, rather, to then, you know, co founding this company. Huge deals. You've talked in the past about your, like, your prep school background, the kind of, like, class privilege that, you know, scaffolded your career with all of that. Did any of the skills that you actually need to run a media company come from any specific place? All the places. What was the most beneficial thing?
- [44:54]
B
Campaign work. I mean, so that's funny. The van driver thing follows me around because Republicans. Republicans, whenever I say something on Twitter these days, someone will be like, shut up, van driver. Like, what that means is, in 2004, when I worked on Barack Obama's Senate campaign, is that I was the lowest guy in the totem pole in the press office. So that meant, like, writing press releases, taking reporter calls, doing all this stuff. And then when we go downstate, I would drive the press van, like, behind Obama's car. And the reason that was so funny to me was I would end up, like, having to slow down a couple, like, 100 yards or two because I could see him smoking, and I just didn't want, like, a cigarette to fly out and, you know, land in the AP reporter's lap or something. So that was one of my jobs. And then I went to Iowa for the 2007 caucus campaign. And I think that experience was really formative for me because it was like, you know, 10 of us the start, couple hundred by the end. I watched an organization get built. I watched politics get done the right way in this sort of, like, aspirational organizing, building, like, just this inspiring year of my life. And it also taught me that, you know, you just couldn't be too big for your britches. And, like, all of us did every job, no matter how shitty. Like, our boss, Paul Tuz, was kind of a maniac. And one day he would wake up and tell all the senior staff that tomorrow you're going canvassing and draw a county out of a hat. And then we did that once, and we realized that all the counties he'd drawn or he'd put in the hat were as far away from Des Moines as was physically possible. So I was driving to Minnesota, basically to go knock on doors for five hours and then coming back. And so you just learn to grind and do whatever. And I think that was great preparation for politics and working in a White House where, as a press person, you can be working on one thing one day and wake up the next day, and the entire world is talking about something else. And you got to chase that soccer ball like a little kid and just kind of do what you got to do.
- [46:52]
A
You hit on it. But, oh, man, you gotta love that double standard. So you'll always be a van driver. AOC will always be a bartender. But Mark Wayne Mullen is man of the people because he was a plumber.
- [47:01]
B
That's right.
- [47:02]
A
And an MMA guy, although he's, like a Nepo plumber. So it's like, what really?
- [47:06]
B
He does.
- [47:06]
A
Look, this is. Yeah, I learn all sorts of things about a number of Republicans that I don't want to thanks to my buddy Alex Perlman. He, when he just ranted, I'm like, nepo plumber. Never heard that.
- [47:16]
B
Nepo plumber. I love that. But yeah, I loved driving the van was actually a blast because I got to go, like, hang out everywhere.
- [47:26]
A
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B
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A
It's time to take your taxes to the max. Start filing today in the Credit Karma app. So, Tommy, while we are, you know, talking about personal things and this is kind of more of a sensitive topic, but I think it was, it was very meaningful to me when, when I read it in January 2022, you and your wife, you lost your, your, your daughter at 24 weeks. You wrote about it publicly. You talked about it on the show. You called for, for men to be more open about pregnancy loss and miscarriage. And so I want to ask you because it's something I always constantly think of, of like what's public and what's not public and what can be helpful and what's not. What made you decide to, to talk about that publicly when I think your instincts probably to keep most personal things private.
- [50:42]
B
Yeah, I'm like a pretty private person. I've sort of over time made a decision, not really like post photos of my kids and stuff or like I was like, I do worry about putting too much about them in the world that they can't control. But in this case, I mean, I'm happy to talk about this stuff honestly. And you're very kind to like kind of be delicate about it, but I think a lot of people who experience loss like that, I think kind of want to be asked about it more than you'd think because it keeps that memory of the person alive.
- [51:17]
A
Right.
- [51:17]
B
And for us it was a, it was a, we had a stillborn baby girl at 24 weeks. I mean it was absolutely gut wrenching nightmare of an experience. And the broader Context was my wife and I have been trying to get pregnant for a while. I think we had six or seven miscarriages. Like, we literally stopped counting because it just was that painful. But then, you know, with. With our daughter Margot, we thought we were past this kind of magical point where a fetus could be viable outside of the room and we'd be okay. And then I'll remember.
- [51:49]
A
Forget.
- [51:49]
B
You know, one day, Hannah, like, just knew something was wrong. She went and got an ultrasound and then went to the hospital and called me and was like, you know, I think this is happening. And sort of our lives were upended. And it's just an unbelievably devastating experience because not only do you lose your child, but, like, she has to give birth at that point. And so you're in the hospital for 24 hours to go through this process that is supposed to be, you know, kind of the outcome is the happiest day of your life. And in reality, it's like, the worst thing you could ever imagine. And so, you know, I went through that. I was very blessed to be at this company working with my friends who are like, take all the time you need, right? So I kind of disappeared for a month and just tried to figure out how to work through it. It's funny you asked about this today, because I literally just got a DM from a reporter I know who said, I just experienced the same thing. Do you have any advice for me? I remember hearing you talk about this back in the day, and getting that message from him was both devastating, just sort of like, for this person, but a reminder that there is real value in talking about these things, because there's not a lot of places you hear about this stuff. And so my advice to people is, like, lean into it. Lean into the grief. You know, like, don't try to go hide and be alone. I remember we got back from the hospital, I think Hannah was like, I don't want anyone in the house. You know, let's just be together. And then our friends just kind of invaded and didn't. Wouldn't take no for an answer. And, like, that was the best thing they could have done. And we threw like a, you know, little kind of like, Shiva funeral ceremony for our. Our daughter. And one of my friends gave another friend Covid the baby funeral. No. Which is no in hindsight. That's how you're gonna really fucking funny. And it's a funny thing to do to somebody in hindsight, but it was, you know, it was devastating. But look, like, we were talking about earlier, like the butterfly wings thing, like, now we have two kids and if that hadn't happened, my two children would not be here with us today. Right. Something would have been different and changed in the timing and everything else. And I will never stop being grateful to whomever for them being here and therefore not change anything, even if it was unbearably sad at the time.
- [54:17]
A
It is amazing, like the. How lost it is that like the natural feeling of wanting to retreat, but that just kind of it. That is like one of the positive things of the Internet and community of like that initial thing of what was supposed to bring us together rather than divide us. And so, and it does feel like it's often not always the case because a lot of the tragedy that we see, it's people going, who's, who's, whose fault is it? But that it brings in that sense of community. Did the response. I know that, you know, you mentioned that that other reporter, but what was, what was the initial response? Like, I'll just say for you, because I don't want you to speak for anyone else.
- [54:54]
B
It was like overwhelming, overwhelming kindness and decency and love from people checking in in a way that was. It was really moving. It was like, it was quite. It meant a lot in a way that was surprising because I'm someone who's normally like a little bit cynical, especially about shit on the Internet. But you know, when you post something where you're just kind of like ripping your guts out on Instagram, like, that's very unlike me. But then to have just like thousands of people just sort of like throwing love at you, being kind, reaching out, it. It impacted me more than I would have ever have expected in a very positive way.
- [55:35]
A
So you've built this company on the foundation of the Obama years, but you've also publicly broken from Obama positions. If Obama, I think, sat down and listened to, let's say, the last year of Pod Save America, what do you think he'd agree with? And what do you think maybe not even he would disagree with? Is there something he would be disappointed with?
- [55:57]
B
I think it might not be on policy. I think it might be on tenor and tone and approach to politics. Because he is just like the ultimate believer in striving to bring people together and to reach across boundaries and to use a tone that is inclusive and can like, grow the size of the tent. And I think like, when you live and breathe in the kind of Trump era news cycle all day long, you get mad and you get bitter and you hate People and you lash out. Right. And you know, like, if he heard me say that Stephen Miller looks like a sentient vampire penis, would that make him proud to have employed me? Probably not. Would I take it back? No, he does.
- [56:44]
A
I'm not gonna say anything too bad about the people that still talk about the high road, but I think, I think that's. It's a little old. It's a little. Hopefully we can get back there in the future. There are certain people that I definitely want to have that mindset, but.
- [56:57]
B
Right.
- [56:58]
A
The world's complicated, okay? Relationships are complicated. When I see big right wing personalities that say crazy shit, hanging out with a lot of the big left people that say what I feel like is a lot of normal shit and they're seemingly friends. Like, I want, I want there to be debate and discussion, but it does feel like there's a lot of bad actors and there's not a lot of good faith. And so I don't know. And so, and the unfortunate thing is, like, I want those conversations be able to happen. I want people to still be connected and not close doors. But there is a part of me that makes, makes it feel like it's all a game, like it's all a show. It's all about followers. And I don't know how to. And you know, I'm talking broadly and so people are going to apply it to individuals here and there. But I just, I, I can't put that thought away in my head.
- [57:46]
B
I wrestle with this all the time because it's not just true for, it's not only true for like on media personality and types, you suddenly see like, you're like, wait, I thought you guys were on the opposite end, but you're buddy. Buddy. Does that mean you're just kind of play acting when you talk about this stuff? But you'd also see it in Congress, right? Like the Joe Biden would always talk about, like his friendship with some segregationist southerner. And you're like, well, it shouldn't. Is that good? And it's something that I think it's worth being mindful of, which is you don't want to seem like it's just a bit. You're just playing a part or performing. That said, I do think, like there's ways, you know, we all live in a complicated world with complicated friends and lives and you can have relationships with people and really, really disagree with them or dislike them when it comes to some other thing. I think, you know, you know, you referenced sort of like the, I think the when they go low, we go high comment from Michelle Obama, which I feel like it's thrown back in her face a lot. And I think people would. What people miss is, I mean, that was the right approach for her. Right?
- [58:46]
A
Sure. And that's why I say different, different. Different avenues for different people. And like, yeah, I love some people having that.
- [58:51]
B
Totally. And I also, I do wonder. My kind of theory of politics is, I think there's like a giant pendulum in this country that kind of swings back and forth at different speeds. And I'm just really, really hoping that we are swinging away from the kind of Trump era tone and we are getting back to more of a Obama era hope and change, bringing people together. I do think that's why you're seeing like a James Tallarico do pretty well in Texas because he's speaking to more of those better angels. Now, I'm not naive. I realize Donald Trump has won twice, including pretty recently. That brand of politics can be very effective. But I do think ultimately, like most voters want a politics that just does stuff for them and is not like constant bloodsport.
- [59:38]
A
I hope there's been reporting about how Trump's trying to like back off on ice and cities try to make things more about, well, you can't make it about the economy right now, but more about culture war issues. Try to kind of throw out the pocket glitter arguments that he did with trans people before the last election. And it has been interesting seeing Democrats messaging evolve on that. It does. So far it feels like publicly it seems like Platner's positioning of its billionaires trying to distract you while they're exploiting you and not caring about and then bringing it back to, to, to table issues. I mean, after watching the, the platinum clip where he was like, this is pretty much an almost non issue here. It's like maybe there's been two instances I looked at Georgia and it was like, I think it was the number one thing on the Republican agenda, but I think at the time it was signed there was zero or maybe one instance that would have been impacted. And I think that that messaging is really interesting of they're trying to make you scared of this, this group that doesn't have the numbers to really speak up for themselves. And it's all, it's all a game. So do you see any messaging like that that you think is a winner going into the midterms, going into 2028?
- [60:54]
B
I think what you're describing is so important, which is you like have to tell people a story and Describe for them a villain or an obstacle with a motivation. And that kind of like, that's how you expose the game that is being played. Because, yes, the fact that Donald Trump talks about nothing except trans athletes in sports and to the point where his like, signature voter suppression legislation, the SAVE act, now has a bunch of anti trans components in it for absolutely no reason. And I think, like, it's, like, it's just key, I think, to helping people understand, like, this is what they're trying to do. They're distracting you. It's part of the game. And, like, that's why they're doing. I do think, like, what Platner is doing is very important now. That said, I think Democrats sometimes think that we can just not talk about issues and they'll go away. I think you saw that a lot in immigration this last cycle.
- [61:43]
A
I was gonna say the border.
- [61:44]
B
Yeah, the border. And it's like, you know what, back to your question earlier of like, what is something the Democrats really screwed up? The border. People want a border that feels safe and secure. They want immigration laws and rules that feel rational and fair and like, people are rewarded for doing the right thing and not the wrong thing. And I think, like, we got to get back to kind of the Obama era immigration policies. Like, similarly, I think around Covid, there was too much kind of like public shaming or the lockdowns went on too long and were not necessarily based on evidence, even though we were holding ourselves up to be the kind of science based, evidence based party. And we need to kind of just, I think, do some reflecting on how we screw that up right now.
- [62:30]
A
If we're not talking necessarily about politicians, but if we're talking about political media, who's doing a better job right now, left or right?
- [62:38]
B
The right, I think, just dominates when you look at where the audience is. Right. I mean, Fox News blots out the sun when it comes to cable. I think a lot of the biggest conservative voices on YouTube or on podcasting are conservative. Like, I don't know about you. When I look at the charts and I see Candace Owens kicking my ass on the podcast charts, I start to wonder what's going on? What am I doing wrong?
- [63:05]
A
You might be getting sued less, though.
- [63:06]
B
Yeah, that's true. I should. Yeah, I got to work on that series. I know Keir Starmer's wife has a dick. Tucker Carlson has clearly found something right. So I think they are winning. I don't necessarily think it's better now. That said, I think it's very cool this Sort of modern iteration of media that people like you. I mean, you've been doing this. You kind of paved the way for a lot of us, but, like, you know that a crooked media can exist. The Bulwark can exist. Satayo can exist. Hasan Piker can exist. Right. There could be all these different flavors of progressivism up and down a spectrum can have their own little niche, and people can find them. I think that's great.
- [63:45]
A
Yeah. I mean, and the fact there's a million places. I'm like. I'm like, the last person to get on substack the week that we're recording this. And I was just like, oh, I love this. This is like, this is a dream.
- [63:57]
B
Do you like writing?
- [63:58]
A
Yes, I've always liked writing. It gives me a thing. But a lot of what I will really, really enjoy is, yeah, starting I'm trying to carve out the time, but the ability to do, like, a weekly news so that it's not just me, you know, reformatting a script that I'm doing for the show. And it's like a paired piece. Like, something that's a little more thoughtful. That's. That's what excites me also. I mean, even the notes feature, that sounds like doing a fucking substack ad for them. But no, like, even notes, like, I'm like, oh, a place that it doesn't feel like a hell site. Like, I used to love. I used to love Twitter when check marks allowed me to go, like, okay, this person. There's, like, an 80% chance I can trust them. Like, obviously, I got to be, like, a healthy amount of skeptical. And now it's so I don't. Like, I go over there every now and then if I want to kick a. Kick a bee's nest, but that's about it.
- [64:53]
B
Yeah, I never left. I just couldn't do it. And I'll be honest with you, like,
- [64:57]
A
people, I think that's smart from, like, what you're trying to accomplish. But from. For me, it has drastically changed. I think around the time that I still used it. It was around the time that I, like, I still wanted everyone to like me. It was like, because I was, you know, I was like, the biggest fucking fence sitter in the world for the first 12 years of my career. I thought I was some enlightened centrist. And, you know, it was just like, oh, no, that's just. You're just being a coward because you like big view numbers. But now. And so now it impacts me less because I'm like, Oh, a lot of people that are hitting me, I just don't like anyway. Yeah, so this is why. This is. This is a fight rather than I'm getting hit in the back of the head by people I thought were frustrating.
- [65:34]
B
Isn't that funny how it works? Like, there are people who have hated me and are conservatives and have called me, like, Tehran Tommy or the van driver idiot from the right wing, like, for a decade, and I just could not care less what they say. But someone. When someone from the left attacks you or someone like, sort of who you respect or, you know, you're sort of like, in your social circles, they go after you, it feels really bad, and it will grind at you. And frankly, that's like, why I never joined Blue sky, because it just felt like a place where it was, like, left on more left violence all the time. And I just. I want no part of that.
- [66:05]
A
Yeah, I mean, you mentioning that, it makes me feel like. I don't know. A buddy of mine, Daniel Sloss, said something recently that I was like, oh, I feel like this is. You're saying it better than, like, oh, the Virtue Signal Olympics, where it was like, trying to be a good person on the left. I'm paraphrasing or quoting him. Trying to be a good person on the left is like trying to speak French in Paris. It is the least rewarding experience. It's. It feels like you're surrounded by people that are prepped for you to fail not to do a good job, and some even excited at the prospect of how you're going to fail. And meanwhile, meanwhile, like, you know, you on the right, like, they. They have fights now. Like, we can't. We can't act like. It's. It's pretty vocal. A lot of it's about Israel, but it's. Yeah, it's. It's just a different, different world. But I was like, but I don't want it still. I'm. I've never been at a place where I was like, that's so annoying. I'm going to be like, yeah, fascism works.
- [67:01]
B
No, no. That's right. Yeah. Yes.
- [67:04]
A
Cruelty is the answer. It's like, no, okay, I'm just going to fucking back away from this conversation.
- [67:08]
B
I can't imagine getting trolled into just wanting to live in a fascist police state. Yeah, that. That is. That is a bright red line for me, too.
- [67:15]
A
But I mean. And I will say I'm oversimplifying because there are people that are like, okay, well, if I'm getting jumped on, I want to have some sense of community and especially if that community is saying, fuck those people that were messing with me. So I see especially like the canceled pipeline how that happens. But yeah, it's, it's an interesting, it's an interesting dynamic. And, but this is a thing that I, that, that kind of came up is there are a lot of people on the right that think the left doesn't infight. And then there's a lot of people on the left that don't think the right in fights. And I'm like, I think it's just the algorithms that are making it so that we don't see this.
- [67:46]
B
Yeah, you'll hear Trump say this all the time, be like, oh, the left, we never do this. You know, Democrats stick together and Republicans attack each other. And then people on the left say the exact opposite, which is we always fight and Republicans always get in line. It's like everyone's, both parties are full of people with differing opinions who fight like children because that's what happens. They jockey for power.
- [68:05]
A
I do have to ask you before we, as we start to wind things down, you kind of referenced it with Candace, but not directly. Macron, right, is in, you know, last year as president of France, he's, you know, the, the last internationalist neoliberal on the global stage. You know, Obama, Merkel, Cameron, the list goes on. It's going to be an end of an era for the West. So do you think we are losing more than we're gaining?
- [68:33]
B
So I've been very worried about European elections coming up because there's a bunch of big elections in Germany in 2026 and there's a very scary right wing neo Nazi party called the AfD in Germany and they have been ascendant. And then in 2027, there are going to be French presidential elections and the French presidency is very powerful. And Emmanuel Macron is, he like came out of nowhere. He created this own party and he is about to be term limited out, as you said, and has done nothing to figure out his heir apparent. And there was a lot of fear that the far right, the National Rally Party and France, either a woman named Marine Le Pen or this guy, Jordan Bardella could become the president of France. And if we had a far right leader of France and a far right leadership in Germany, I don't have to tell you all the ways that that could go badly. We've seen that movie before. So I'm worried about Macron leaving. I'm worried about the rise of populism in particular on the far right. The only good news is, interestingly, the only thing that has seemed to have managed to arrest the rise of the far right in Europe has been Donald Trump because he started threatening to invade Greenland, and that didn't go over well in Denmark, where they just had a snap election.
- [69:49]
A
He's a great unifier for other countries.
- [69:51]
B
Yes, he is. Hopefully he'll be a problem for Viktor Orban in Hungary, so we'll see. Fingers are crossed. But when I look at what's happening in Iran and the potential spike in energy prices over the long term, the possible migration flows you could see out of Iran into, you know, Europe and all over the place, those are the kinds of things that fueled the far right last decade, after Syria, after Afghanistan, et cetera. So I'm, I'm anxious at the same time. I hope that answered the question.
- [70:25]
A
No, it does. But I mean, I guess connect to that, you know, like, what do you think the next version of the west is going to be like? Is it, do you think that it's going to be divided, at war with itself? Do you think, like, a new leader will emerge? And part of that, like, I'm thinking of, because a number of the people we're talking about, relatively, they're mostly young leaders, right. But the replacements for the most part, are a lot of older people. Not universally, but I mean, what do you think the next version of the west is?
- [70:54]
B
Man, that is like the key question, because I think the only person who started to try to sketch out what that might look like is Mark Carney, the prime minister of Canada. He talked about this need for, like, middle powers to band together and sort of like, throw their collective economic weight and military might together and use it to sort of push back on the US and push back on China. Now, he gave this, that speech was in Davos when, like a few months ago. He hasn't really, like, he sort of threw out the concept of this middle powers unity at Davos. But, like, they haven't done anything yet. Right. Like, Mark Carney has not been leading a coalition to push back on Trump to prevent the war in Iran, for example. So I think everyone's in wait and see mode. I think the challenge for the world, the west, is the US Is just far and away the biggest economy, the biggest military power, and has been kind of the leader for so long. And they know that Donald Trump will not be around forever. But I think they feel pretty burned after watching him come back again. And they're worried about J.D. vance and Trumpism and what it might mean for this long term trajectory and they're feeling squeezed between the US kind of seeming crazy, and then the rise of China and then of course the Russians in their own backyard invading Ukraine and all the territorial expansion that we're seeing from Putin. So I think, you know, everyone's in just a bit of a wait and see mode while feeling like we can't just go back to the way things were. It's never going to be like the U.S. and NATO.
- [72:31]
A
No. Well, I was going to say I, you know, I love this country and everything that it can be, but if you're another country, I don't know how you could ever trust us. Like I, it, if, if we are able to have and I moving forward as if we are, and we need, we need to be prepped for all the bullshit that can be pulled. But if we are going to be a country that continues to have free and fair elections, I also still think we're in a place when we look at the median voter and I say this, like with all respect, that because, you know, lives are busy and you can only pay attention so much and you know, we live and breathe this, but that it feels like we're going to have a different party leading every four years or at least a different person in the presidency. I don't know how many eight year presidents will have, at least in the short term. And so then connect to that because I think that the population, a lot of the stuff, right, we're seeing with Trump, it's gonna have impacts for a long time, that then if you had a Democratic president, that they're gonna be blamed for a number of things, not improving it enough, especially if they don't make bold moves in Congress, if they even have those seats. And then if you're another country, you know that every four years it's like the contracts just get ripped up.
- [73:39]
B
Yes. I mean, look, imagine like from, look from Canada to Iran, right? The Canadians, like Donald Trump was attacking them over the USMCA agreement, which is the revised NAFTA agreement that Jared Kushner, his son in law, negotiated. And Trump was mad about. It's like, oh, what if he had said this? And then you have the Iranians who are being asked to cut a deal with the United States after Trump pulled out of the jcpoa, the Iran nuclear deal, when they were abiding by it, when he used talks last year as sort of subterfuge to begin a bombing campaign with the Israelis against Iran. And then again, this time we were engaged with talks with Iran, and then Trump started bombing them, and now they're, like, asked to come to the table again and figure out some sort of ceasefire and agreement. It's like the level of trust is just gone. And then, you know, Trump's shitting on NATO and blaming them for not getting the Strait of Hormuz unstuck, but just a few months ago, was threatening to invade Greenland. So we just seem like. We seem not just unreliable, but kind of aggressively, you know, unhelpful.
- [74:38]
A
Because this is like, this is our return to season two. I do have a question of. I had fun with this podcast, but I've also had bad podcasts. Do you have a worst podcast that you've ever done or worst interview that you've ever done?
- [74:53]
B
So back in the early days of doing Pod Save the World, it was. I would book a guest, and that guest was my whole show for that week. And if I didn't get it, I didn't have a show. And I remember booking a guy who had written, who was a journalist, who I knew very well, a nice guy who had written a really interesting story. I'm trying to fuzz up this details here, because I don't want to be a dick. It turned out this guy was the worst on mic communicator I'd ever heard in my life. And on top of that, had, like, an absolutely devastating fever or cold or like the flu or something. So not only could he not talk in a normal day, but was sneezing so much and coughing and losing his train of thought because he hadn't slept, that it was, like the most incoherent conversation I've ever had. And we had to just scrap the whole week. I don't even remember what we did, but it was brutal because, you know those conversations where minute one, you know, this is a fucking train wreck, and then you're there for another hour. It was that. And then I got sick.
- [75:56]
A
Well, I'm glad that didn't happen here. Tommy, thank you so much for the time, man.
- [75:59]
B
Thank you for having me. This was very fun. Great to see you.