B (2:39)

Can say is that, you know, if you come to Chicago, there are two things that you got to know. One is no ketchup on your hot dog. I mean it's, we're a mustard town. Chicago dog has mustard on it. Okay. And I don't want you to get, you know, laughed at or embarrassed when you're here. The other is that there's a drink here that if you can drink it a shot without making a face, then you're considered tough enough to be a Chicagoan. It's called Malort. And I hope when you come, you and I get together and I'll happy to serve you some Malort and we'll see how you do.

A (3:18)

I'll take you up on that. Absolutely. I had a little when I was there earlier, well, last year and I don't know if it was because I was tough, more dead inside, but I was able to roll with it. But we'll see. Now Governor, I do want to get into topics, but because I do have you for a little longer, I want to learn a little bit more about you and I think a lot of that starts with your upbringing because I think a lot of people know kind of surface level things, right? They, they know Illinois, they've seen the Texas Democrats stuff recently. Maybe they saw what you were doing with the dnc, that you're a billionaire. But what, what was your upbringing? I mean you were, you were born and raised in California. But how do you, what was, what was life like early on? How do you end up in Chicago?

B (4:05)

Well, thanks for asking. You're right. People know surface level things. Maybe. I mean, I can say one thing I should really emphasize is that I'm a product of a family that came here with nothing. We were escaped. My family was escaping the attack on Jews in Ukraine. The Russian empire was literally killing Jews in the 1880s. And, and so my family escaped and had to go somewhere and came to the United States because it seemed like the place where you could live safely away from the Russians and a place where maybe you could succeed and have an opportunity. So my great grandfather came here. He literally slept in the sub basement of the Chicago train station, sold Chicago Tribunes on a street corner to make a living and. And went to a public school, got a good education at a public school, got a place to live when he first arrived from a social service agency. So, you know, those are things I know, because when he was 70 and he became an attorney during his lifetime, and by the time he was 70, he wrote a book about the history of my family and his own background. And it's something that isn't published publicly, but something that we in our family get when we're 13 years old and get to read it and, you know, get our own copy of it. So that. That's a little bit, at least, of, you know, I think knowing your roots and knowing where you came from help to, well, set you on your course. So. I grew up in a family with two really great parents. Unfortunately, my father passed away when I was seven. My mother, when her husband. My father passed away, she was 39, and she had three children. She was a widow. And I should also say she was an alcoholic. And so one of the reasons my mother is my hero is because she had so many trials and tribulations. The challenge of her life, right? Overcoming a disease, alcoholism, you know, managing three young kids. I was seven, my brother 11, my sister 13, when my father passed away. And I can only imagine how challenging that was for her. I saw how challenging over the subsequent 10 years as she fought her alcoholism, tried to make sure we understood that this wasn't about us, that whatever she was doing as an alcoholic wasn't aimed at us. And she didn't mean to make it seem like it was in any way. Anyway, she worked hard to overcome it. I should also add that she was an activist for many years before my father passed away and for many years, many years after, until she passed away, she was an activist for LGBTQ rights and an activist for reproductive rights. Think about in the late 60s, early 70s, mid-70s, it was hard, right? I mean, these are. These were not popular positions to have back then. And so. But she was. You know, she would march and she went to meetings, and I was the youngest, so I got dragged along with her to the meetings, which I think has imprinted a great deal on me. So I tell you, that background, just because, you know, and she passed away, like I said, when she was 49 years old, when I was 17. Her life and her travails and the way she worked so hard to overcome them has had a big impact on me. I'd tell you one other thing about Myself, just so you understand. So, you know, again, my. Both my parents had passed away by the time I went to college, and I got to college. College and the president of the university, I went to Duke University. The president of the university was the former governor of North Carolina many years earlier, in the early 1960s, and he was the first Southern governor to integrate the schools. Think about that. Right At a time when George Wallace was standing in the schoolhouse doorway, Terry Sanford was opening the door. And as a result of that, in the early 60s, right. He couldn't have been elected, reelected or elected dog catcher, frankly, in North Carolina. And he knew it when he opened the schools, when he integrated the schools. And I think a lot about that. And how do I know this story and why do I tell it? Because I went to work for him at the end of my time in college. I worked on his campaign. I was his advance man. And then I got hired to work in the United States Senate. He ran for United States Senate and won. And I got hired as the youngest legislative assistant at the time in the U.S. senate. But he was someone I admire so much. And I think about what he sacrificed. I think about the choices that he made and recognize that most people in public office are always working to get reelected. Everything is about reelection. But to choose to sacrifice so much, as my mother did so many years earlier, to take on unpopular positions when you don't have to, those are things that have impacted me. And I try to think about that every day as governor, that I'm living up to, what I hope my mother would have wanted to see happen in her lifetime and what I think Terry Sanford might have chosen to do if he were alive today. So. So those are at least some things about me that maybe people don't know. But I do think about, particularly my mother, really every day that I serve as governor.

A (10:11)

So your mother's activist roots, it obviously plays a big part. Was there a singular moment where you go, okay, I'm gonna go into politics? Because I never imagined getting into a news space or anything until I. There was just a day where I saw Rush Limbaugh years and years ago when I was in college going off about Michael J. Fox. Not even the most like, directly political thing that would affect me in any way. And it just set me off. And that was kind of the spark that led to now 20 years. And so was. Did you have a singular moment where something clicked?

B (10:45)

Yeah, you know, I. Like I said, you know, I was kind of around politics growing up. My father also was a Democrat and you know, was very engaged in helping candidates win. And so I was around it a lot. I didn't know if I wanted to go into it as a career. I was pretty young.

A (11:06)

What takes you from I'm on the sidelines or I'm rooting for people, I'm showing support. So I'm going to be the player, especially given your unique situation.

B (11:16)

Well, it was while I was working for Terry Sanford on Capitol Hill. Senator Sanford had been Governor Sanford. And again, being near somebody like that, watching him make decisions about how he going to vote on things, sometimes doing, you know, voting in an unpopular way. As a US Senator, he was for gun safety legislation, you know, from North Carolina. And he, by the way, is a gun owner and, you know, someone who was a hunter and. But, you know, really believed that we needed to be careful about who could get a hold of a gun and what kinds of guns would be available to people. And so I, you know, I. There was some time during. While I was working for him when I one day walked into his office and, you know, and remember, I was 23 at that point, and he was 70, I don't know, one or so, and walked into his office and I said, we used to call him governor even though he was a senator. But I said, governor, is there any chance that you could. Would you mind telling me, like, I'm thinking about running for office someday. I don't know if I want to, but if I did, like, how do you do that? What should I think about if I'm running for office? And I am reminded to tell you I was thinking that he was elected governor, the youngest governor in the history of North Carolina. And here he was, 71, while I'm asking him this question. So he's had a lifetime of politics. And, you know, and he said, you know, he basically asked me, well, where do you want to run from? Are you gonna, you know, North Carolina or, you know, where? And I said, well, my family's all in Chicago, where my parents are from, so maybe there. And he said, well, then you should go work for somebody from Illinois, because you're gonna need to know people in Illinois, and you're going to want to understand the issues and so on, right? And so, you know, I was taking a little aback at the time, and I thought, is he telling me I'm fired? I need to go find another job? But instead, what he was telling me was accurate, which is, you know, call up Senator Paul Simon was then a United States senator for Illinois, and Senator Alan Dix, you know, Call up their offices and maybe you should try to transfer over there. And so I actually followed his advice and ended up working for Senator Alan Dixon, who was the senior senator from Illinois. So I don't know if that's the moment exactly, but I'll be frank with you. I, yeah, I, I was very taken with the idea that you could make an enormous difference in the world. There are a lot of ways to do that. But one big way that to make an enormous difference is to, is to move the ship of government in the direction of standing up for working people and you know, people who are the most vulnerable in our society, that you can do that with philanthropy, you can do that in other ways, but the most impactful can be working for the government and so, and running for public office and leading. So that's, that's maybe, I don't know if there's like one moment that I could point to, but that's sort of a time period in my life when I thought about it. Meanwhile, I ended up going to law school and I went into business and I ran for Congress when I was 32 years old in a five way Democratic primary because it was open. The 50 year Congressman decided to retire.

A (14:57)

And that was the one where you came in third. Right?

B (15:00)

I did not to rub it in. There were five people running. I mean, I have to point that out. I didn't come third and I didn't come in third out of three. Came in third out of five, made the podium. But I have to say I'm kind of, you know, years later I went and sought the endorsement of the congresswoman who represents that district still today that beat me and I went to seek out her endorsement and she endorsed me. And when she did it, she reminded everybody that she beat me. Here I am running for governor and she's reminding everybody she beat me for Congress. And I of course thanked her and said yes, and if I hadn't lost, I wouldn't be running for and possibly winning the governorship. So we've developed a pretty strong good relationship.

A (15:46)

Yeah, you gotta have someone that humbles you regarding kind of the history. And I wanted to see if you were involved in any way. I mean, obviously it's your family, but is it true that your fight with Donald Trump, it dates back to before you were governor as far as your family business and Donald Trump?

B (16:07)

Well, I wouldn't call it my fight. I was pretty young when all that was happening. But yeah, there was a, I would say Donald Trump frankly tried to, he tried to take advantage of a situation with my grandfather many, many years ago and caused a real problem for the Hyatt hotel business. And the result of that is that, yeah, there's not many people in my family think much of Donald Trump, but that really has nothing to do with the way I feel about him. I have, you know, I have thought it really.

A (16:54)

Everything that has anything. Do you think it has anything to do with his feelings towards you or maybe your sister Penny's become a target and his Harvard lawsuit, do you think? I don't know. I just remember in 2016, a number of people from New York saying, hey, like, if there's, if there's a word that describes this guy, there's two. It's revenge and grudge. And it was before, you know, a lot of people fully saw what he was going to do. And it's been an experience seeing everything playing out. But do you think that plays into it for him from his side?

B (17:31)

Oh, I think. I mean, remember, I mean, he is a vengeful narcissist. There's no doubt about that. And, and I think he sees himself as, you know, responding now to all the grudges that he's had over so many years. So I have no doubt that one of the reasons that he attacks me regularly and has also attacked my sister is. Is that. But I also think that, I mean, I'm personally glad that I'm living rent free in his head, apparently, because he just brings my name up, you know, randomly.

A (18:09)

And I was going to say he, he constantly says that you were thrown out of your family business. I think that's a thing that. Is that true? What is that about?

B (18:17)

I never worked in my family business. I started my own. So I. Thrown out of my family business. No. And in fact, I've worked with my family members who, some of whom have chosen not to be part of our main family business. And by the way, I don't own any shares in Hyatt, of No, no involvement in the hotels, although my father built the business. But I made sure that I, you know, especially as I was becoming governor, that I had no interest personally that would, you know, benefit me that were, I don't know, someone who worked for the government might stay at a Hyatt and that might benefit me and some fashion. So I don't own any shares in Hyatt, but I, I was very proud to build a very successful business with my brother and never worked in a family business or anything that was created before I went into business myself.

A (19:10)

And I mean, while I know that you use the words vengeful narcissist when talking about Trump. But another thing that you've kind of said and repeated is that you've regularly compared President Trump, and I mean, some would call it a regime to the Nazis. And there I would love to hear more, just because there's been so much debate around that. Right. For the last 10 years of people initially saying you're overusing that word. And then obviously, with more recent actions, we've seen more people using that comparison and fascists and authoritarianism. And so I'd really love to know your thoughts there, because it does seem like you are someone that is consistently sticking to that presentation.

B (19:51)

Well, I don't apologize for that. I should start by saying I led the building of the Illinois Holocaust museum. I spent 10 years working with survivors. My family at least nobody in my kind of immediate family line was affected by the Holocaust. But remember, my family came here because of the pogroms, which were essentially like the Holocaust, committed by the Russians many years earlier. So I got involved in helping to build this museum with the survivors. And I have become very familiar with the history of the Holocaust. And most especially I've focused for myself on the years prior to the Holocaust actually taking place. That is what happened in this constitutional republic that was Germany. It was the most powerful democracy in Europe and a constitutional one. And something happened that led to the Nazis taking over and ultimately Hitler leading them as he did. And what happened was the relatively quick endeavor of the Nazis to engulf and take down a series of rights that existed for the citizens of Germany. And they did it in part by using words like, you know, they would point at people or choose groups of people, and started out calling them immigrants. Right. Even though they were Germans. They were German citizens, some of them prominent, some of them elected to public office, but they were othered by the rhetoric of the Nazis. Right. And it's. And it's how they operated in a stressful time and a stressful economic time in their country, and they were seeking more power by doing so. And it worked. And I think a lot about the laws that they put into place one after another after another. It was, you know, it's a little bit like the old story about the, the frog in the pot. You know, that's, you know, sitting in lukewarm water, doesn't think anything is happening. And if you turn the heat up, that doesn't recognize that they should jump out of the water. But if you throw them in a hot pot, right, they're going to jump out immediately to. To a large degree, what happened wasn't that slow, but it was a gradual endeavor that went from othering people to dehumanizing them, and then to the Holocaust. Now, I'm not suggesting that the United States is headed toward a Holocaust. I have only suggested that that is the authoritarian regime that I am most familiar with, because I studied it and sat next to people who were terribly affected by it. And so that's the reference that I have. We could talk about lots of other places in the world, right? We could talk about Cambodia, and there have been tribunals to deal with the challenges of Cambodia. We could talk about authoritarianism that has risen across the world. That looks very much like what Donald Trump is doing. But taking down a democracy and turning it into an autocracy or an authoritarian regime doesn't take that long. It was 53 days that the Nazis did that in 53 days that they took down a democracy and turned it into the kind of regime where they ultimately could commit the atrocities that they did.

A (23:38)

And so, okay, so if we're focusing more on that, I mean, I've seen a lot of people online making comparisons to what's happening with ICE and to a certain degree, with the National Guard as being used as a private military, some using language from the Times saying it's. It's with, like, making comparisons with the Gestapo. What are your thoughts around that?

B (24:00)

I don't know. I think the analogy gets strained at some point. Having said that, there are masked people not identifying themselves as belonging to law enforcement who are literally kidnapping people off the streets. So I don't know what you want to call that, but that does happen in authoritarian regimes. And when it's happening on this, whether it's the streets of Chicago or Los Angeles or Washington, D.C. or anywhere else in this country, and it is happening elsewhere, too. We have to recognize that this is not the country that I think any of us thought that we were building. Indeed, I always think about, you know, Martin Luther King, you know, had a great pronouncement in one of his speeches about, you know, the. The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice. And I've always thought, during my lifetime, I'm 60 years old today, or not today, but now. And I've always thought, when I think about that and look back with so many things that we've done wrong in this country, it's a democracy, and we've made mistakes along the way. Certainly the original sin of slavery is a good example of that. But lots of things. Right. And over the years, whether it's women's rights or, or civil rights, human rights in this country, we have evolved. And that arc of the moral universe, when he said it's long. I like to think it takes a long time sometimes to get justice right, but it bends toward justice. But you look outside now and look at what ICE is doing. Look what they're doing with the FBI, the atf. I mean, they are moving all of those agencies into a street force to go after people, often people who are law abiding, who have been in this country for 10 and 20 and 30 years, who are paying taxes. They're your neighbors, they're sometimes your friends. These are not aliens. These are people who are residents. And we owe them at least the decency of, if you're undocumented, having the ability to go through a due process in court to try to get legal residency or explain why you're here. Undocumented. But for sure we should have laws that allow that, that are more explicit about that. And we need comprehensive immigration reform. But I'm saying instead, they're just picking people up. Like, if you sound like you don't belong here, or your color of your skin is black or brown, somehow you're suspect and subject to vans with guys popping out, wearing masks, not identifying themselves and taking you to a gulag in El Salvador. So that is why, I mean, we all should be standing up, speaking out and, and reminding our fellow Americans that this is not the country that we intended. And Donald Trump is taking us in a direction that is dangerous for our future.

A (27:18)

Regarding these people wearing masks that are doing this, what do you say? I'm gonna pose two questions. What do you say? Regarding the argument that we're doing it for their safety, we're worried about people going after them and their families. And then also, what are your thoughts around the chatter that they're being. A number of them are masked or there's this move to mask them because there are a number of people that should not actually be allowed to be in this specific position.

B (27:48)

Well, I wasn't trying to comment about the masks exactly. I was just saying that I've never seen this before.

A (27:54)

Sure. But I mean, these people being masked and doing it, it is a common point and it's a common thing that a lot of people have been debating.

B (28:05)

Absolutely. But I guess I'm saying law enforcement in this country, for the most part, they will answer you when you say, who are you? What agency do you belong to? Which police force? What is your Name anything. You know, any. Like you get pulled over, the person pulling you over is. Will identify themselves. And in most law enforcement jurisdictions in this country, they have to identify themselves. But all of a sudden we have people who don't. And it's maybe emblematic of that, that they're wearing masks. I can't speak to and I don't know how many or the situations of people being attacked because they weren't wearing masks and somehow were revealed. I haven't. Honestly, I don't know what those circumstances are. What I can say, though, is that the collective endeavor of hiding what law enforcement agency this person belongs to, you know, maybe you don't have to identify yourself with your last name, but, you know, could you identify yourself in some fashion and by the way, show us a badge of some sort, like, you know, that's an actual badge that we can verify. And then you're getting dragged away with no process at all and your families not being notified about where you're headed. This has happened to US Citizens now because they're just using this kind of dragnet endeavor where they go into a neighborhood and they'll grab anybody. And so this is. Look, the. The entire thing is loathsome. It's. It's not patriotic. It's un American, what they're doing. I'm not suggesting the people that are. That work for law enforcement are the ones who are. Are responsible for the policy. They're not. But I have seen, I think we all have now with social media, you know, and on television, on news that, you know, that this is a. It's happening every day now. It's not an accident. It is clear that they are being told by somebody, by Tom Holman, who's being told by Donald Trump it's okay to operate this way.

A (30:25)

Right?

B (30:26)

So I find it. And, you know, there's another thing I want to point out, which is, look, I'm for taking. If you have a violent criminal who is convicted in my state, I want him to serve their time and then get deported. That's it. That's what should happen. They should serve their violent criminal should not be in this country, but they got to serve their time. You can't. You know, we'll just. They should be serving 20 years in prison, but no, you're just going to release them in Mexico somewhere or anywhere else. They should serve time if they've committed a crime and been convicted of it. But that's not what's happening. They're taking their. First of all, they're pointing at the immigrants, and they're saying they're criminals. Donald Trump said it, I think, on his first day coming down the escalator in 2015 when he was announcing for president. He basically said the immigrants are criminals. Can I remind you that almost 50% of the Fortune 500American companies, biggest American companies in this country, 50% founded by immigrants or children of immigrants. I'm a great grandchild of an immigrant. I mean, immigration is part of the American experience. We're the best country in the world, by the way, and our economy is the best in the world because we invite the smartest, best people to come to this country. And we invite people who may not have an education but want an opportunity and are willing to commit themselves to America.

A (32:01)

So when you say that, I mean.

B (32:02)

Ended by what he's doing.

A (32:05)

So I think that there, there are a lot of people that would still argue that or still say diversity is a great selling point. It's something to be prideful of in America. But that might hear kind of what you've been saying over the last few minutes and say, well, that's, that's kind of a democratic strategy of conflating illegal and legal immigration and trying to conflate those two. I mean, I know you talked about violent criminals and deportations, but then, and then, but then you're talking about, you know, Fortune 500 CEOs. I mean, what would you say to that, as far as the conflation of trying to mix the message up?

B (32:40)

Well, I want to remind you that an undocumented person didn't necessarily come to this country illegally. And I think there is a conflation of that, that somehow every undocumented person in this country, like, you know, snuck across the border the way that people imagine. That's not often actually the way it is. It's vastly more often that someone came as a student, overstayed their student visa, may have made a mistake, by the way, in doing so, not purposely. And there are people who, and you've seen this recently, where people who are here legally working in this country legally have simply had their legal status taken away from them for no reason. And now it's the Trump administration doing it. So, you know, let's, let's not conflate all of those things together either. But I'm not trying to conflate things to my great grandfather came here and became a US Citizen, but, and entered the country, I don't know, legally, there wasn't an Ellis Island. And so the idea that, like, everybody that came here and is Undocumented is somehow, you know, antithetical to who we are or to our future. You know, he, he created a. Well, you know, my great grandfather not only created a good life for himself by going to school, getting a public education, but also like going to law school, becoming a lawyer and successful lawyer, having children and grandchildren who created businesses that have employed a whole lot of people and, and Americans who have served. You know, my father, my grandfather, my brother in law, my, you know, my, my. So many people in my family. I have a cousin who was a colonel in the army. You know, again, my father and grandfather in the Navy. I'm dedicated to public service. And we are, you know, we're, we're loyal and patriotic Americans. And yeah, we started out with somebody who came to this country uninvited, I guess is the way you would say it, but who became a US Citizen. So many people that are here today want to commit themselves to this country, would like to be asked to at least become legal while they're here, or retain or obtain legal status that they maybe once had. And instead we have, for 40 plus years we've gone without any immigration reform. Instead of rounding people up, how about if we work on immigration reform and then we'll decide based upon what the immigration reform looks like, who gets an opportunity to stay and who doesn't.

A (35:13)

And things have gotten to such a point, I believe I was watching, I think it was in the last 48 hours. As far as the podcast being released, you recently said that you called for a rebellion in the streets. And I wanted to kind of hear from you what exactly that looks like and what you're specifically saying. There's.

B (35:32)

Yeah, I'm not sure I said rebellion in the streets, but I, I do think that.

A (35:35)

Pretty sure I'll give it to you.

B (35:37)

Well, what, what I can tell you is, and I said this in a speech in New Hampshire, and of course the Republicans decided that I was calling for, you know, for, for mayhem and violence. Nothing of the sort. Because I've always followed it with the words, you know, megaphones and microphones and, you know, ballot boxes. That's what I mean. And, you know, like I use the word fight, I often ask people, are you ready for the fight? Those are words we all use in politics. These are all words that, you know, when you see people protesting a policy, right. It's, are you, you know, are you standing up and working hard against something? That's a fight. Right. And so I think, you know, it's, that's what I would say about those words anyway. What I mean is that people need to stand up against what Donald Trump is doing, and they need to do it by speaking out, by protesting, by showing up and expressing themselves, and most importantly, by going to the ballot box in 2026.

A (36:42)

I was listening to Newsom's podcast from the other day, and he was talking about, is there a concern of ICE or National Guard showing up around the midterms in your mind, is that something that's playing around? Especially as you know, Trump said he's going to be deploying National Guard to your state, along with scores of feds. So, I mean, where, where's your head at? I mean, I guess for the short term, but then also as we, as we get closer to the midterms.

B (37:10)

Well, it's unconstitutional and it's unlawful. What, what Donald Trump is suggesting that he would do, just like the other day when he said he was going to issue an executive order and end mail in balloting. That's also unconstitutional. And. But he says a lot of these things and they're just not, you know, now might he do them even though they're unconstitutional? Sure. He did that in la. I think one important thing for everyone to recognize is that so much of what Donald Trump says is bluster. The challenge is that there are people who hear it and who act on it as if, well, the President of the United States said it, so it must be okay. And I think that's dangerous. And that's why it's so critical that we elect people to the presidency and to public office who actually have the best interest of the majority of Americans, all Americans in mind. And so I am, you know, I'm concerned about what, that, you know, what, what he is doing, what he is allowing people to do by virtue of his own rhetoric.

A (38:21)

Yeah. I sometimes wonder around the, that this mindset of it just being bluster or, I mean, a common thing is like what we've been seeing with the National Guard. A number of people saying, oh, well, it's actually a distraction to this other thing. I think multiple things can happen at the same time. It can serve as multiple purposes. And it feels like a lot of what we've seen from this administration, and I'm, you know, preaching to the choir here, is say, do something, get it rolling to a certain extent, damage things in the meantime before the courts can stop anything, you know, and so, I mean, what do you. Do you think that Democrats need to stop the distraction talking point because it's more complicated than that, or do you have any Thoughts there?

B (39:06)

Look, I do think that as Democrats, we need to be, you know, multitasking. I think there are, you know, at least two tasks that we have ahead of us as Democrats. Right. One of them is we have to stand up and speak out about democracy and what's being torn down, the institutions of our country that are being torn apart. And that's why I gave a speech about, you know, about what the Nazis did in Germany and how that concerns me. But that's not, you know, if you knock on 100 doors as a elected official or someone running for office and you ask a hundred people, you know, do you know democracy is being taken away from you and you need to get out there and do something about it? Most people, frankly, look at you and wonder, what planet did you come here from? Their lives are not impacted by the form of government. Exactly. Or they don't feel that in their daily lives. They don't. Their lives are affected by, can I go to the grocery store and buy enough food for my family? Do I have a good job that pays enough so I can pay my bills? Can I get to work and back home again in a reasonable amount of time? Just things that are like work a day? This is what most people are facing. And that's the other thing that Democrats really need. I say it's the other thing we need to be doing both, but it's the, you know, the other 95 people out of the hundred are worried about, about, can I pay my bills and how are you helping me get through, you know, challenging moment economically for my family and build a better life? So that, that, I think, is why. That's one reason, I think, why Democrats didn't win in 2024. There are several other reasons, but. But I want to remind you that back in January So of 2024, Joe Biden, when he was still the candidate for Democrats or, you know, likely to be, he gave a speech at Valley Forge about democracy. And they. And the campaign portrayed it as. This is the theme of the Biden campaign. And when I heard it and then saw it, I thought, everything he says is right. But for the most part, that doesn't move most voters. They're not thinking about those things. And that's where I think Democrats have had it wrong over the last, whatever year. Plus, and where. When we think about the future and how we're going to impact people's lives and make them better, it's got to be about the challenges that they have at the kitchen table and not so much about the Big broad brush of institutions of our democracy, which we are also going to have to fight. And frankly, when we retake the White House and the Congress, we're going to have to rebuild them.

A (42:14)

Is that something you feel very strong about, that at the end of the day, the kitchen table issues will deliver the presidency? Because I feel like this last election and each election is different. When the election comes down to a lot of stuff, it's motivating the base and then trying to grab those people that are in between. And I think Trump handedly took a lot of those, those in between. And we saw dramatic shifts. So, I mean, I guess whether it's you, whether it's a different Dem candidate, like, what do you, what do you say when the Internet or an interviewer or the person you're debating throws out like the, I call it the pocket glitter. And they say, well, what's your thoughts on trans athletes? Even though it's a very outlier situation, what are your thoughts more notable to the moment now of what Netanyahu is doing with Israel? Right. We're seeing massive divides among younger Democrats and older Democrats, and even among maga, there's a split of people yelling at each other. America first is real first. Like what. Where do you think those things? I mean, it seems like those things move. There was a lot of criticism, whether you think rightly or wrongly, around Biden and Harris going into the election.

B (43:31)

Well, I guess I'd start by challenging the first notion that you put out, which is that, that he, you know, that Donald Trump won handily. Donald Trump won the popular vote by one and a half percentage points. So just just to remind you, it wasn't like there's some blowout, you know, majority for Donald Trump. There isn't. And elections matter how you run an election, sometimes the better candidate or the person with the better ideas loses for a variety of reasons. Right. Some of it is like, well, inflation. When you're the incumbent and there's inflation, that's something that will affect your reelection. So there were a lot of circumstances. Don't forget the other thing that I think we lost because of is, you know, our candidate, and we can all have opinions, if you like, about the, the presidential, you know, but about the president running for reelection, Biden. But I've never in my lifetime seen it where an incumbent running for reelection dropped out of the race with 108 days left until the election and then someone else. And by the way, most people have no idea who the vice president of the United States is. Another poll you could do on the street ask 100 people if they know who the current vice president is. Virtually nobody does. You and I do. But most people have no idea that J.D. vance is our Vice President. So now you put that person in as your nominee. And, and by the way, there wasn't anybody else who had higher name recognition or, you know, whatever that you could like.

A (45:11)

You know, I think, I think we do get into a debate there of people feeling that Democrats have been somewhat anti Democratic in the primary process and the slide.

B (45:19)

That's silly though. I'll be, I'll challenge that any day because the reality is that we had our nominating convention coming up, I think four weeks later, you know, and the idea that what are you going to do, hold a primary? I mean, you know, who's going to decide? A bunch of insiders are going to decide who the nominee is. You think that would sounds more Democratic? She got elected Vice President of the United States, so she's won the most votes of anybody that you can name. So anyway, again, I know you think.

A (45:48)

That'S just looking in the rear view like going, well, now I imagining hypothetical situations. Is that kind of what you're feeling?

B (45:55)

No, I'm suggesting to you that there were a lot of circumstances in 2024 that, you know, were not in anybody's control, maybe Joe Biden's, because he could have not run for reelection and, or could have not dropped out, but a lot of things that were not, not in anybody control and Democrats lost. So this is just to challenge the notion that you put forward that, you know, that somehow there was this, you know, big ringing endorsement of Donald Trump. But you also, you know, raised these kind of like peculiar, very specific issues.

A (46:28)

I think we're pretty similar. I'm not saying that he got like 70% of the vote. And I'm not echoing him saying like I, I am like the God king. I'm saying that, you know, based off of everything that we're seeing, he got the popular vote and that means something. Especially as for a Republican candidate in recent elections and the split of votes that he got across, whether it's minority voting groups that people didn't expect, former Democrats, those, those sorts of shifts. That's what I'm talking about.

B (46:56)

Yeah, and I'm, I hear you. I was just, yeah, anyway, just countering the notion that it was some blowout victory, so. But I think you were also trying to get to these very peculiar issues that got talked about, seem to affect some people's votes. Right. And look, I think Republicans got. Have gotten very good at distraction. You mentioned that word earlier. Very good at distraction. And you know, what really matters to. I can tell you that what matters to people in Illinois is like I said, you know, can I buy a car for a reasonable price? Can I afford to rent an apartment or buy a house? You know, can I live and feed my family? Those are the things that really matter every day in people's lives. And the Republicans don't have good answers to that. And so the distraction works for them because what did they end up doing? What they ended up doing was cutting health care, very unpopular. Cutting food aid for the most vulnerable children, very unpopular. And giving a massive taxing break, rather to the wealthiest people in this country. So, you know that, that I get. I know you know that that's been very unpopular. Donald Trump is now below 40% in his approval rating. And, and that's why, you know, and you know, right. The Texas Democratic, you know, effort has been so important. He's trying to take seats away that don't belong to him or Republicans.

A (48:37)

I was going to say that based off of, based off of his horrible polling, right? Then he's calling up Abbott in Texas saying, give me five seats. He says, yes, sir. Apparently there is the, the whole ordeal feels so dismissive just where, where you have Texas Democrats. I don't like saying fleeing, but trying to do their job and going to, to Illinois and trying to stop a quorum. Something I'm interested in here. And I do apologize because a lot of these questions, I try to pose them from criticisms that I see or critiques. And I want, because I don't want it to just be like two guys saying, exactly. But, you know, I've seen when people say, well, Pritzker, not the perfect messenger for the gerrymandering situation. If we look at Illinois, right, And I feel like I already know what you're gonna say here of like, where we are and a perfect world. But I mean, what do you say to. I was in a situation yesterday where this is so random. Sounds like I'm bringing you into drama. I had the founder of Kind Snacks criticizing me for saying that I think that it is the right move for, for Gavin Newsom to go, hey, Texas is doing this. We have to match this energy. Democracy is at stake. We'd like to play by the norms, but the norms have changed. I mean, what do you say to one, people that say you're not the perfect messenger, and two, that Democrats shouldn't do what Newsom is now trying to do?

B (50:08)

First of all, it isn't my endeavor to become the messenger or a perfect messenger. And what I will say is that what Donald Trump is trying to do in Texas and what the Texas Republicans are attempting to do is truly against the law and unconstitutional. The Voting Rights act does not allow them to do what they are now attempting to do. So we will, that will get litigated. We'll see. But I'm just explaining, anybody that can read the Voting Rights act can tell you that I'm right. And so putting that aside for a moment, but that is one of my biggest criticisms. Literally, they're taking seats away that belong to black and brown populations, representatives who are black and brown in order to give Donald Trump a gift. And why? Because he knows he's going to lose the Congress in 2026. Okay. So that's part of it. The other part is that, you know, we have a process in this country and it's that every 10 years we have a decennial census in which we determine where the population now exists. And then based upon that, a year later in a year ending in one like 2021 and 2031, we draw the districts in a state, state legislatures do this. Governors sign a bill or veto it. But, but that happens once every 10 years. It's 2025. There's only one reason that they're doing this right now. And so that's all I would say. Look, everything that we did followed the Voting Rights act and is constitutional and legal. And our goal has been actually to maximize the diversity of our representation in the U.S. congress. And we achieved that.

A (52:12)

With, I guess, with so I guess, connected to that. I mean, with what. So you support, though, I imagine what Governor Newsom is trying to do in California, though, based off of the realities of the situation right now.

B (52:25)

I would rather, I mean, you're asking me a straight up question about, like today, here's what I think that should happen. I think Texas should look at what California is now intending to do and they should back down. I understand. You don't think that's going to happen. I don't think that's going to happen either. But the reality is that we can do this tit for tat for quite some time and it will be bad for democracy. It will have been lit on fire by Donald Trump. The fuse has been lit. Right. And, and then we're going to see Texas and then California, you're going to see Missouri and Maryland, you're going to see Indiana and maybe Illinois. And, you know, you're going to see this happening wherever it can happen. Because now we're in the situation of. Apparently the Republicans have thrown the rule book out entirely and Democrats have to do something, and it is time for us to stop playing by the old rules. The Republicans stop doing that for, I don't know, for a long time now. And we've always held fast to. We've got to do it this way. This is the way it's always been done. And now, apparently, we're going to have to fight fire with fire. So that, I think, is why I support what Gavin Newsom is doing in California. I don't want to redistrict in Illinois. I don't want to. I don't want California to have to do what they're doing. But it happens that that's a vote rich and district rich environment, as New York is. And so at least in both of those places, if we have to counter as Democrats what's happening, what Republicans are trying to steal in Texas, gonna have to go to those states. And we can't unilaterally disarm by saying, well, we have these independent commissions and everybody should have an independent commission, but only Democrats apparently have independent commissions and are trying to do the right thing. I mean, I. I'm done. I. Many years ago, Paul Simon, one of my heroes in politics, I'm not talking about the singer, but the U.S. senator who was opposed to PACs, political action committees. And. And then someone said, well, why do you accept PAC money if you're opposed to PACs? He said, because I can't unilaterally disarm. The other side gets to go raise PAC money. Well, I don't, because I'm opposed to PACs. I'm going to get elected so I can end PACs. And I, unfortunately, that's where we are. We can't unilaterally disarm. And that's why I think Gavin Newsom's got it right.

A (54:50)

I think it absolutely makes sense. It's. We're not in an ideal situation, but I just. I don't get people saying, well, yeah, fight with your hands behind your back. At least there's honor in it. I think that's crazy. I'm going to. I feel like I accidentally.

B (55:04)

Democrats, we did that for too many years.

A (55:06)

I feel like I incidentally ended up grilling you there for 20 minutes out of nowhere where we ended up going. I want to end on a lighter question. This was from Chicagoan Illinoisian.

B (55:17)

Is that Illinoisan? There's no.

A (55:20)

Oh, it is. Oi. Okay.

B (55:22)

Yeah, it's. Yeah. Illinoisan.

A (55:25)

Yeah, Illinoisan. Okay.

B (55:26)

So it's not because I'm Jewish. It actually is Illinois in that.

A (55:33)

So you're called the Great Khan by Illinoisans. Do you have moments, like, when an aide or whoever comes and tells you, hey, you're going viral as a meme of Genghis Khan? What. What's your reaction as just, you know, an adult man?

B (55:48)

Well, thank God politicians don't have control over the Internet. And, yeah, there's a. There's a meme account that got created called Nomadic warriors for Pritzker. And somebody. I think he's a. Either a student, a graduate student, something like that, started this account. Yeah. What do I think of it? I mean, I'm. I guess I'm flattered. It's very funny. I mean, they are very funny. And talk about, you know, the idea that we're, you know, that my goal is to create greater Illinois, that we're going to invade Indiana and Wisconsin and Iowa, and I can tell you right now, I don't want Indiana. But. But I can tell you also that, that, you know, it's. It's fun. It's just a fun thing somebody did. And. And I one time referenced nomadic warriors in a speech when I was talking about the idea that I'm a happy warrior because I am warrior, but I think I'm not offensive to anybody in that way. But I talked about nomadic warriors in that speech, and I think the nomadic warriors anyway went nuts over it, so I was happy to play into whatever it is that they're doing. But, yeah, it's a crazy world that we live in where people are putting up memes about office holders or candidates, and you have no control over it, don't know where it's going to go.

A (57:24)

Yeah, you got to lean into the meme, whether your future is Illinois or more national Governor, Illinois. Greater Illinois. Thank you so much for the time. I appreciate you answering some questions with me.

B (57:38)

Thanks, Phil. Good to talk to you.