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In Good Faith With Philip DeFranco
Will Trump Pardon Ghislaine Maxwell? — With Brian Tyler Cohen
00:36:30
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- [00:00]
Unknown Host
For the past six months, it's felt like everyone's been pulling their punches and walking on eggshells when it comes to Donald Trump. And, you know, it's not like it stems from nothing. He's been launching lawsuits left and right at corporations that he feels have wronged him. He doesn't hesitate to launch attacks on private citizens. You've got ice scooping up people seemingly because of things that they wrote, you know, throughout all of America. You've got masked men jumping out of vans and just scooping up undocumented immigrants, legal immigrants, native born Americans, all the same. And you've got Stephen Miller routinely suggesting they'll suspend habeas corpus. And that's when he's not sending the military in to crush protests or defying court orders.
- [00:31]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Right?
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Unknown Host
And all of that, as you see Trump's Cabinet meetings, beginning with like an hour long praise session where his cabinet tells him just how powerful and wonderful he is. It feels like a scene from a movie that's trying to make fun of dictators, with many arguing that all of this, it sends a message that Trump is inevitable. And so there's no use in getting upset because criticizing him, it's more trouble than it's worth. And that, as infamously, the founder of Project 2025, which many argue is Trump's main governing doctrine, said last year that the revolution will be bloodless if the left allows it to be. And we're living in this time where it seems like more and more Americans of all political positions, all colors and creeds, they feel in their gut that there is something deeply un American about what's going on. Or what many call the brute force tactics, the crackdown on free speech, and Trump acting like a king. A king who many see as having shaken down. Paramount took credit for getting Colbert canceled and put CBS on a bias monitor that directly reports to him. But then, notably, south park of All Place is coming out with one of their most pointed episodes ever, where he went after Trump for thinking that he was a dictator, characterizing him as essentially Saddam Hussein, and it laughed at him for being so weak that he has to sue everyone who criticizes him, showcasing him as this blob with a small pen penis that's evil and in bed with Satan, in that it's just one small part of what we're seeing play out in the entertainment industry and in every sector that Trump's gone after. It appears like everyone rolls over and then eventually they get to someone with a backbone and the whole scheme blows up in his face. And since the episode, the entertainment industry has been having an open season on Trump. Definitely we're seeing things in different sectors. I mean, you have Joe Rogan now regularly opining on what he sees as Trump's attempts to cover up Epstein and his abuses of power. The flagrant podcast is now regularly criticizing Trump, hosting Democrats and gushing over John Ossoff. Now the other late night hosts seem determined to take a chunk out of him. And that as he had the Dr. Dropkick Murphy's dedicating first class loser to Trump earlier this week and Green Day leading crowds in Fuck Trump chants. With Trump in some polls having an approval rating that's sitting at 37% with.
- [02:16]
Brian Tyler Cohen
71% of independents disapproving of him.
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Unknown Host
And that was without the widespread media criticism that 37% is a standout figure because it's just three points higher than Trump's all time worst approval rating, which came after January 6, with some saying he's entering total freefall. So to dive into that and what comes next, I have my guest today, Brian Tyler Cohen. He's an author, creator, creator, political commentator, and the host of no Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen. He's just all over the news these.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
Days and it feels like he can't go two channels without seeing this guy. So Brian, just to start, like, how are you navigating the media landscape right now? Because you have Trump, right, suing or pressuring or intimidating everyone from huge universities, companies and news organizations. So like, how are you navigating the space? Are you ever getting concerned? Where are you at right now?
- [03:02]
Unknown Guest
Yeah, of course I get concerned. I think everybody in the space gets concerned. But, but my mentality is like, I'm here to, I'm here to do my job. And, and oftentimes that criticizes people for not managing to stand up for what they purport to care about. I mean, like we see all these, these legacy media outlets that hid behind slogans of like democracy dies in darkness for years and years and years. And when push came to shove, like when those values were actually challenged, look at the way that they capitulate to him. So, so look, you know, my job is, is to, is to fight back against what this administration is doing and speak out. And so yes, it's nerve wracking because why wouldn't it be? I mean, this is, they've completely weaponized the federal government. We have people who, who've gone after, expressly gone after media companies, media entities, they're very litigious. But like, you know, if you're gonna speak out against this administration, then you have to do it knowing that there are risks involved. And so that's just part of the game, I think, as far as politics today is concerned. And it's what I signed up for. So, yeah, it's a concern, but like, you know, it is what it is and I just have to kind of, I just have to kind of shoulder that burden and move forward.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
Do you imagine a world where one day you wake up and you see United States v. Brian Tyler Cohen? Or do you think, even though, I mean, you've been growing at a wild rate, I mean, do you still think you're small potatoes or do you think that is an eventuality?
- [04:32]
Unknown Guest
I think somewhere in between, like, would I be surprised if, if I was sued by this administration? No, I would be upset if I was sued by this administration. I obviously don't want to be sued. That's, that's a, it's a major fear of mine to have to deal with that extra stress. I mean, already working in politics and living in the toxic sludge that is the Internet is stressful unto itself. The hours that I do are stressful. And that's owed to the fact that politics just doesn't slow down, you know, but, but, but at the same time, I try to be really careful with what I say. I try to be responsible with what I say, always try to tell the truth and make sure that I'm buttoned up. And so, you know, that part, that, that part I have control over. Right. And any administration that's act, that's actually acting in good faith wouldn't have grounds to sue me. But this administration isn't acting in good faith. And so would I be surprised if there was a lawsuit? A bad faith lawsuit? No, because that's part of what it looks like when, when the administration weaponizes the government, they're not worried about, oh, is this a base, is this a well founded claim against a litigant? They're, they're thinking, okay, how can I silence my critics? And part of silencing your critics is, is using these lawsuits to do exactly that. Even if there's no there there, they can cause a lot of damage. Even if there's no, you know, even if there's no good case. I mean, it's expensive, it's anxiety inducing, it's stressful. The whole, that's what they want. And it sends a message to other people out there who might think, okay, even if there's no there there, when it comes to a lawsuit, I don't want to have to deal with that stress. And so maybe I just won't say the things that I might normally say about this administration. So the chilling effect really is the point. Even if at the end of that long line, there's no, there's no valid lawsuit.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
Yeah. And I mean, with the chilling effect, there are, obviously there is a difference between private citizens and corporations and politicians. But I mean, politicians haven't been spared. I mean, there's the conversation of, or the saying of Gavin Newsom. Yeah. Why wouldn't he get arrested? That sort of, all of a sudden it becomes part of the national conversation. And so as that's happening and you're seeing the chilling effect play out, who do you think right now as far as politicians are communicating against Donald Trump, and maybe it's even the separate thing for Democrats, the best right now in the current climate.
- [06:54]
Unknown Guest
So there are. My North Star right now is people who are fighting. I mean, I speak about this a lot. And so I'm sorry if you've heard me say this before or if anybody listening has heard me say this before, but Democrats for so long have been a party that kind of relies on strongly worded letters that, that's our thing. And, and it's been tough as, like, as like somebody who recognizes what Republicans are doing and how they wield their weapons to know that we're like, okay, well, you know, Republicans did this. And so at the end of the, at the end of this road, I know that a strongly worded letter is coming and that'll show them. And so I've been trying to use my platform to highlight people who are actually going to fight and who are fighting back in terms of people who are doing it. Look, you know, you just mentioned Gavin Newsom. He's doing it. I think he recognizes that fighting back is the only thing we can do right now. And, you know, hoping that we can, like, work together and offer goodwill in hopes of some elusive reciprocation like that ship assailed. It doesn't happen, you know, like back to the days of Mitch McConnell offering up some, you know, brand new rules for a Supreme Court justice. And we're like, okay, okay, those are the new rules. You can't, you can't nominate a Supreme Court justice during an election year. And then we have the opportunity to do that. And they're like, no, we couldn't. You know, like, then they have Amy Coney Barrett, you know, during an election year where votes are already being cast, and they're like, well, we have to, you know, we have to abide by our advice and consent rules that. That's it. So, like, we have to disabuse ourselves of this notion that they are going to be good governing partners or that they're going to act in good faith. So to answer your question, there are a few ways that I see people fighting. I see the Gavin Newsoms of the world using whatever platform they can to fight from within the states. I like to see Democrats go into these new spaces that Democrats don't often go in. I mean, you've got the Pete Buttigieg of the world who are going onto flagrant. I do like to see Ro Khanna go into these spaces as well. And we went onto Tim Pool's podcast. I think going into uncomfortable spaces is important. I think, you know, in terms of just Democrats more broadly fighting, I mean, we have Mark Elias and Norm Eisen who are, who are, you know, suing the hell out of this administration every chance they can. So however you can do it wherever, like, wherever you have the ability to wield power, whether it's a few governors in their, in their states, whether it's, you know, these lawyers going into court, whether it's, you know, these politicians going onto these spaces where they can talk to folks who don't usually hear from Democrats. All that stuff I think is important. And, and that's the kind of thing that I'm going to highlight, you know, with my platforms.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
Yeah, well, it is interesting, I think, especially for politicians going into spaces that are new or different for them, I think has been important to your point. I think Buttigieg has been kind of the one everyone's looked at. I get really interested when it comes to commentators going against each other, whether it's like going on, you know, Piers Morgan or any of the multiple talking head shows, or I think you recently did one with Benny Johnson. And those always strike me as interesting because it feels less like, what do we. What matters from the substance of this debate. And it becomes who can clip this better and who can. Who has the stronger marketing arm.
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Unknown Host
Right.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
Because it's like all of a sudden you can take that same interview and all of a sudden. Or the same debate and it is being cast as a completely different thing.
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Unknown Host
And a completely different win for a.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
Completely different person, whether it's on X and who are the people that are reposting it and commenting on it and then TikTok and who's stitching it and then, you know, the first party platform. So like you and Benny and then all the other people in those ecosystems. And it becomes like, it probably does move, but I don't know if it moves like, and I'm not saying it's better or worse. I want, I think it moves different than Pete going on flagrant. Right. I feel like more like pushes people that already agree with those people to go, my guy won. Do you find that to be true or no?
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Unknown Guest
I think, look, I think as it relates to commentators, that really is the whole ball game right now. Because I think when you see politicians, it's already baked into the cake for a lot of audiences, who they are, and they have their preconceived notions because Pete is a Democrat. And so, you know, if you're just an audience, if you're an audience member out there, if you're, if you're just a content consumer, you have your feelings about Democrats and Republicans, like, it's really hard to break someone's, like to break someone's perception of a politician before you even hear from them. But I think especially at a time where trust in politicians is so low, and so the most effective messengers for people who are persuadable are not going to be politicians and it's not going to be news people on CNN or Fox because it's the same way. There's, you know, the biases are already baked into the cake. But I think a lot of the persuasion happens among commentators, among regular people, because, you know, you see a guy or a girl on TikTok just talking and, and that, I think, is where trust has not eroded to the point where, you know, you see Pete on some show and you're like, I, he's a Democrat. I, I already, you know, I've heard a billion things about Democrats. I'm either, you know, I'm a Republican, I'm an Independent, whatever it may be, or I'm a Democrat, and I love him, you know, like, whatever it may be. So I think, I think having these commentators like myself go on to these shows, there's a lot of opportunity for persuasion, and I think both sides know that. And so there's, there's such a, there's such an incentive structure to win that battle because that's where people, especially new people coming into the process, you know, Gen Z's or Gen Alpha, like, that's where they're building up their political worldview, and that's where you have the biggest opportunity for conversion, really. And so I think that there is a big incentive for not just the commentators to do a good job. And on the show not just the commentators to then clip it in such a way that you can say you won or you got won over on that person, but then the broader ecosystem to glom onto that and say like, hey, here's our guy. You know, here's our guy, here's our girl. Like let's get it out into the ecosystem so that, so that we can show it to as many people as possible and, and grab those persuadable voters out there. I mean, maybe I'm just transposing my mentality because I think a lot about persuasion and I know a lot of people just want, you know, aren't thinking about persuasion. They have their audiences and they, they want to impress their audiences. They want to get pets from, from their audiences. So you know, depending on how you think about. But it's the same, it's the same thing. At the end of the day, there's a lot of upside in the commentator space.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
Yeah, the persuasion thing and the everyday people thing is really interesting. Especially as I started seeing Hank Green recently brought this a little bit more to light though. We've been seeing it accounts getting millions and millions of views, hundreds of thousands of likes of just like AI generated fake attractive person with text over the screen that says like a right wing talking point or something like that. And people are like she gets it. And it's like she's not real.
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Unknown Host
And so, and we're going to see.
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Unknown Guest
She doesn't get it. She's, she's ones and zeros.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
But like we're going to see more of that and I really, the level of manipulation we're going to see play out, it's really just a market again, manipulation and persuasion game is what it's becoming more of every day. That scares me. But I want to, it's a complete jump. But I want to talk about it. But I will talk to you about it with the end point first. Do you think that we are going to see Ghislaine Maxwell get pardoned in the next one to four years?
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Unknown Guest
So with the caveat that I may be the worst predictor of things to come ever.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
No magic ball, no magic.
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Unknown Guest
My magic, my magic eight ball is, is, is, is not, not a, not a commodity. I thought Hillary Clinton was going to win. I thought Kamala Harris was going to win. I thought it was a good time 10 years ago to sell my Netflix stock. So I'm, I'm, I'm bad at predicting things. With that said, I will say that I, I would presume that he will. I, I think that he will. There's no downside for him because think about it like, she is the only person alive who has all of the information that may incriminate him. And I say may incriminate him because if there was no information, he'd release the files. I mean, to engage in this process whereby he a leads so many people even among his own base to think that there's, you know, where there's smoke, there's fire. This guy is so hell bent on refusing to release these files and that's obviously concerning. And so she is the only person who has all of that information in her head who could incriminate him. And so why not wield a pardon which he has at his disposal, which he's abused in the past and which doesn't cost him anything. This guy's notoriously cheap. It's not his money, you know, and he even has paid out hundreds of thousands of dollars to protect himself, to secrete or conceal information in the past. Now he's got a free pardon, he's got a free get out of jail free card that all he has to do is just sign his name and then he gets to protect himself. Why not use it if you're Donald Trump? And yeah, the optics would be bad, but the optics are already bad right now. Like, think about all of the, all of the pain that he has that he's had to go through for the last few weeks just, just to prevent these from coming out. So, so whatever's in those files, whatever information exists in the world must be worse than going through an almost, almost month long process where he, he is falling over himself to prevent this information from coming out. Even at the risk of everybody thinking what I think, which is like, hey, where there's smoke, there's fire. Clearly something's up here.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
Yeah, I, I've been so perplexed with how he's handled it because it doesn't feel like someone is like, well, I've always get my way so I can handle this and bully my way through it. It almost feels like he's sunsetting. Something's off about him. Something like, I don't know if it's just the, the age and it's getting to him, but it feels like, I think you might have said something about this that's similar before this. I thought this might have just been a situation that he had weaponized, that the people around him were like, you know, let's really just like lean into this conspiracy as a way to get elected and then people forget about It. But if you were writing a screenplay about how someone would look guilty, it's.
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Unknown Host
All this stuff that he's doing.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
And all of a sudden I was like, wait a second. And yeah, right now you're setting up the situation where why wouldn't a ghislaine. The biggest thing to me is going to be what is the perception, the public's reaction to what she says, if she says something. Because you have someone that was, that was charged with perjury in the past, that is facing years and years and years in prison, who just so happens to be a woman that not despite of, but because of the situation she was in and the connection, seemingly with Epstein was wished well by our president. Why wouldn't she be in a situation where she goes, yeah, Donald was a sweetheart, baby angel that wasn't involved, or maybe he was even like a hero to some degree. And it just so happens that a lot of the people that are his enemies, the people that he goes to when he's just trying to distract from the situation, they were involved. And you know what? Maybe she pulls off a Bane and Batman and she's like, some of us, some, some, they're going to expect some of you in the plane crash. And, you know, there are a few Republicans sprinkled in, or who knows, maybe there's a mix. But Donald's not involved. And I think, I think it's just going to be a question. It feels like he's chaotic, but this feels telegraphed of, is it going to be a pardon before the midterms, after the midterms, or as he's on his way out? It feels like it's going to be.
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Unknown Host
One of the three.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
I mean, maybe, maybe I'm completely off base.
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Unknown Host
I always try to leave room for.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
Being completely wrong, but I just don't see it. It feels like this is the only thing because, and I'm talking a lot here, but because even when Donald Trump was calling his base, like, worthless and stupid for following this. Yeah. It felt like he was directly saying.
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Unknown Host
Shut the fuck up about it.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
So you can use me as the blunt force instrument to exact revenge and go after your enemies. Because that's why you elected me. And that's why I think that to your point, it already looks bad, but if he gives them enough red meat, he'll be able to get away with it and kind of right off into the sunset.
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Unknown Guest
I think the use me as a blunt instrument is the subtext for a lot of people. Like, I think for the evangelical community, they know who this guy is, they know, like, he's an adulterer, he's a sexual abuser. And I think for them, like, they've kind of read the stage directions and they understand who he is. And there's this kind of unspoken. There's this unspoken relationship where, you know, they use him to get what, what he wants, and he uses them to obviously gain power. But I think for a lot of the base, they truly believe this. And so for those people, you can't just write this stuff off because they're true believers, right? And they want to see some justice and accountability and look for as bad faith as I think somebody like Cash Patel and Dan Bongino are, I think that they recognize how damaging this is and that it can't just be like, hey, it can't just be what you said, which is like, who cares what I did? Just. Just use me to further your political goals. Because their political goals, at the end of the day are the thing that this case represents, which is that you have this, this, this elite tranche of people who are not held to any standard of justice or rules that can do depraved things with zero accountability. And we have to take those people down. And they viewed Trump as the person to do that, all of his warts notwithstanding. They viewed him as the person who could, who would finally have the, have the, I guess, the power to do what all of those other politicians in the past could never bring themselves to do, which is expose this deep state of elites who are doing heinous things. But really, I mean, him being able to say, like, with a wink and a nod, who cares what I did? Is so antithetical to what he promised he would do. And so I don't think they're gonna, I don't think they're gonna accept it. To your point about when, when the pardon would happen, if he does give her a pardon, he'll promise her one now, but it won't happen until the day before he leaves office because it would just, I mean, even further sully what, what reputation he has left with those people. So I think that, you know, look, Todd Blanche, his deputy attorney general, had a nine hour meeting with her. If a pardon was promised and they expressed a desire for that pardon, then it's already been, then it's already been given, but we just won't know it until it will have the least political consequence for Trump. And that'll be, you know, January 19, 2029.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
Do you think these, the Republicans who've kind of gotten in line Right. You have Trump polling anywhere between 37 to 41% in some of the recent polls. Obviously, those range between general American public, registered voters, that sort of thing. I mean, we have the House on recess. They come back in the fall. Do you think that we are gonna see movement as far as the House regarding, you know, Epstein on the agenda, or are they gonna just. Or I say they. But a lot of it is obviously Mike Johnson kind of making everything happen. So what do you think's gonna happen there?
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Unknown Guest
A lot of it's Mike Johnson, but a lot of it isn't. If you look at the House Oversight Committee, they voted to compel the release of the fourth files and to push forward a deposition with Ghislaine Maxwell. That's happening on August 11th. That was against Mike Johnson's wishes, because Mike Johnson's wishes are whatever, you know, whatever Daddy Trump tells him to do. So. But to your broader question, yes, I think that these people are not immune to pressure, and I think the pressure on this topic, because it's coming from both sides, they can deal with Democrats leaning on them because they know that they can always kind of revert back to. To their partisanship and know that if Democrats are demanding something like not to strip health care away from 17 million people, they've got, you know, their guy, they've got Trump. They've got the Republican base behind them that are saying, like, we want you to strip Medicaid from 17 million people. Like, you know, inexplicable though it may be, they know that they've got. They can always rely on the tribalistic dividend. But here, I mean, this is an issue that unites Democrats and Republicans and Independents. And the reason it unites them is because Trump and his whole Cabinet made it that way. Like, they were the ones who put this issue into the zeitgeist. They are responsible for proselytizing their base on this issue. And so, you know, you have. I can't remember the polling exactly, but it's something like 86% of Republicans want these released, 90% of Democrats want this released, 87% of independents want this released. And so you've got an issue that unites the Democrats, divides the Republicans, but even then, hardly. And so that pressure is gonna be a lot to withstand. And I think that Mike Johnson's mentality was, let's just get on break and this thing will go away so we can focus on something else. Maybe Trump will start a war somewhere or something like that, like, whatever he has to do, invade some allied country or see if he can get cane sugar and Coca Cola. Denaturalize Rosie o'. Donnell. Pressure the Washington commanders to change their name to the Redskins. The whole, you know, arrest Obama, arrest Al Sharpton, arrest, you know, Hillary or Oprah or Kamala or Beyonce. The list is, the list is long in terms of distractions. But I think that the pressure is going to build on this issue. And even these Republicans are gonna recognize that, like, hey, man, maybe not a great look that we are the party that is, that is cashing, cashing, using all our expending, all of our political capital to protect a pedophile ring. And I think that we're gonna see some movement here.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
So, okay, so a question there. And I think this kind of touches on some of the more not in the trenches, like, not on the. Constantly online, but they passively watch Fox News. They hear a talking point, they repeat a talking point sort of thing. What would you say to someone that at the very least is not a Democrat? Or actually, you know what, anyone that is skeptical of the situation that says, well, Joe Biden was president, why didn't they push to release these files? What is your reaction to that?
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Unknown Guest
Yeah, and it's a great question. And the reality is, before the Trump administration, there was a wall between the president and the attorney general. If you, if you think back to, like, there was, it was a huge scandal when former President Bill Clinton was, went and spoke to Loretta lynch on the tarmac. And so presidents don't have these conversations with attorneys general. They certainly don't tell them what to do. In the same way that Trump issues his clarion call out loud to Pam Bondi and she complies, like, that's not how it's supposed to be. So Joe Biden didn't tell Merrick Garland to release these files, but even if he did, Merrick Garland wouldn't have listened. With that in mind, Merrick Garland was so focused on avoiding the optics of politicization, he didn't even start investigating Trump for January 6th until he could appoint a special counsel years into the, into the Biden presidency. So the real question is, it's not why didn't Democrats release the Epstein files when they had them? It's why didn't Merrick Garland specifically release the Epstein files when he had them? I don't know. I can't get into Merrick Garland's head. But I do know that his North Star was avoiding the optics of politicization, doing anything he could to make it seem like he wasn't abusing his position. And so even if there was something in there, and, you know, I don't know what's, what's in the Epstein files, I'm gleaning a little bit by how Trump's reacting to their, to their potential release, but I don't know what's in those files. But if there was something incriminating, and I'm thinking about it from Merrick Garland's perspective, and his goal is to not see, is to usher back in an era of normalcy and push back against any accusation of a politicized doj, then that may very well be a reason why Merrick Garland wouldn't have seen it fit to release those files.
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Brian Tyler Cohen
Well, and so I guess that's also part of it is now where we are today is that Garland mindset of trying to establish norms or navigating and maybe an old system at this point, is that out the window? And part of my thinking there is connected to like the, the Texas gerrymandering that we're seeing. And now Newsom saying, here's the deal, we don't want to become them, but we gotta fucking handle this situation. And so now we're looking at it. And is that, I think that's, that's really where it has to be today. I mean, and I want your opinion on it, but it's been evident because of McConnell before Trump, of, it's really just a power play. There's what the rules don't really matter if you can legally change the rules and navigate the rules, or, I mean, the Trump administration, you touched on it as well, saying, fuck the rules, we'll get reigned back, but we'll make it painful enough in the meantime. But is that the way forward for Democrats? Just this is the fight. We have to do it now 100%.
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Unknown Guest
I mean, that's, that's the whole thing right now. I mean, at this point, we have to recognize that only one party is playing by a set of rules, and the other, the other party is relying on Democratic impotence to be able to do what they want. And so if you are not figuring out how to beat Republicans at their own game or even better, go on offense. I spoke with Mark Elias, who is probably the nation's premier voting rights attorney at this point, and he brought up a great point, which is even fighting back and doing a tit for tat isn't enough these days. And so if you have Trump go into Texas and say, I want you to find me five seats, redraw the maps and find Me five seats. My dream for Democrats would be for them to come in and say, you want five seats? We're gonna take 30 seats. And that would be a deterrent because even Republicans know that, okay, we can get five seats here, and Democrats will meet us with five seats of their own, and they're happy to take that. So they can go to Texas and get their five seats, and then they'll go to Missouri, and those people are happy to do it. Then they'll go to Ohio, and those people are happy to do it. Ron DeSantis will redraw the maps to make sure they have no Democratic representatives. And so if we're just gonna engage in, like, a little tit for tat, they'll happily take that and run. But Democrats have to figure out how to not just certainly not be on defense and certainly not just meet them exactly where they are, but go on offense and show that there is a reason not to actually do this, not to engage in the first place until we have that mentality, which is, and Mark said this to me in our interview yesterday, which is not. Not to bring a knife to a gunfight, certainly not to bring a gun to a gunfight, but bring missiles to a gunfight. And that's gonna be the only point at which it serves as an adequate deterrent for a lot of these Republicans who recognize for so long that Democrats have been too impotent to be able to play in this space.
- [30:41]
Brian Tyler Cohen
And the last thing I'll ask you today. Cause I know we both have. We're kind of slammed on that note of Democrats trying not to play on defense. Republicans are so good about making things about culture war issues. Even if voters, if they, if they looked at everything they see that they. Or they see, or maybe they don't even know that maybe 9 out of 10 Democratic policies would actually benefit them and make the country better in some way. How does a Democrat do you think in 2028, when J.D. vance or whoever is running throws pocket glitter in the Democratic candidate's face and they go, what's your stance on trans athletes? Because it's not like this random thing that they're not going to bring up or harp on. We remember the really effective Pennsylvania ads about trans surgeries in prison. What, what happens when it's on something like trans athletes where, you know, you have, you've had Gavin Newsom and I think Pete Buttigieg recently, though sometimes the quotes that get thrown around, they're a little bit different than what was actually said in the podcast. How did they. How do you think they. They answer that or navigate it? Because even with it being like, if you look at polling, there's a certain split, but inside of the Democratic Party and the reactions to it, it can be so divisive.
- [31:57]
Unknown Guest
It's a really good question. I have a few thoughts on this, and they're a little bit contradictory.
- [32:02]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Okay.
- [32:03]
Unknown Guest
One, is that the best way to protect the trans community, which obviously, you know, I care about, care about the entire LGBT community, care about any vulnerable or marginalized population that is, that is part of. Part of my, like, ethos as a. As a Democrat. The best way to protect any community is to make sure you get into power. And the best way to get into power is to try and be on the 80 side of 80, 20 issues. Now, I think in terms of getting on the 80 side of these 8020 issues, there are ways that I think you. There are, like, being okay with how anybody lives their. Wants to live their life, I actually think is a pretty libertarian value. I mean, I don't care what anybody does, and I think most people in this country also don't care. When you get into the edge case issues, I think it's okay to be able to push back and say no. I'm like, I don't. I don't want to expend political capital on transgender reassignment surgeries in prison. Like, I think it's okay to be able to say that. And I think there was this mentality beforehand that if you say anything that might seem like. That might seem like it goes against any marginalized community in any edge case scenario that you're being, you know, something phobic, right? Transphobic, lgbt, like, whatever it may be, homophobic, transphobic, whatever it may be. But I think that when you have these edge case issues which come from, like, some questionnaire somewhere to get these politicians on record, I think if they're like that, you don't need to expend your political capital on them. I don't need to come out and say, yes, we should be spending taxpayer dollars on trans reassignment surgeries in prison. And I think it's okay to just say, like, no, and it's. And it's as simple as that. And place yourself on the 80 side of that 80, 20, or 9010 issue. And that doesn't mean that you have to throw the trans community under the bus. I think that. Because I don't think the trans community is staking their political capital on that issue either. Now, at the same time, you of course, recognize the humanity of the trans community and of every marginalized community. But I don't think that those two things are mutually exclusive. And really, I think that would. That is probably the way that I think about that moving forward. But more broadly, it's also important to recognize that these are not the issues that we want to litigate. I mean, you know, trans athletes is like literally 10 people in the NCAA. And I think it's incumbent on Democrats to have to have a message more broadly that is not so thin that we are left litigating some edge case culture war issue. And Democrats need to offer an affirmative message to people. They need to be the party that can talk about economic populism in the way that we have seen crowds rally to the tens of thousands when Bernie and AOC go talking. That's what I think that we need to do. And I think that was largely absent in our previous campaigns. But if we can. If we can understand people where they are on the issues that actually matter, whether it's, you know, housing affordability, regular life affordability, then I think we're gonna be in a situation where it doesn't create such a vacuum because we have such a thin agenda that the bullshit culture war stuff is even appealing or attractive or sticks.
- [35:34]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Brian, thank you so much for the time, man.
- [35:36]
Unknown Guest
Thank you. And, hey, I also want to say that, like, you've been in this space for so long and served as a pioneer for somebody like me to be able to get into this space. And so, you know, just want to. Just want to give you props for the work that you've been doing for years and years and years. And, you know, I knew who you were before I. Before I ever recorded a single video and have watched your content and really grateful and appreciative for you to, like, be in the space so that, you know, me and the people who came in, my class of political commentator could then come in. And now I'm trying to make way and help a bunch of new content creators come in and really build up this army that we need on the left to be able to achieve parity. But all of that was to say thanks for the work that you've been doing for so long and really navigating this space, pioneering this space before most people on the Internet did.
- [36:26]
Brian Tyler Cohen
Wow, thank you so much for that. Very kind words. Appreciate you.