In Our Time: Dragons
BBC Radio 4 | Release Date: July 24, 2025
Host: Melvyn Bragg
Guests: Kelsey Granger (Postdoctoral Researcher in Chinese History, University of Edinburgh), Daniel Ogden (Professor of Ancient History, University of Exeter), Juliet Wood (Associate Lecturer, School of Welsh, University of Wales)

Introduction: The Ubiquity of Dragons

Melvyn Bragg opens the episode by highlighting the pervasive presence of dragons across various cultures and epochs. He notes that dragons have been part of human imagination from ancient Mesopotamia to modern blockbuster films, serving roles that range from terrifying monsters to sacred symbols.

Melvyn Bragg [01:18]: "Dragons have appeared on clay tablets in ancient Mesopotamia, in the Chinese zodiac, in the guise of the devil, in Christian religious texts, and in the national symbolism of countries like England and Wales."

Chinese Dragons: Symbolism and Evolution

Kelsey Granger delves into the origins and characteristics of Chinese dragons, emphasizing their benevolent nature and deep-rooted connection to Chinese imperial power.

• Physical Depiction: Chinese dragons are hybrid creatures with features from various animals. For example, 11th-century art manuals describe dragons having "ears of an ox, claws of an eagle, scales of a carp, and antlers of a stag" ([02:30] Kelsey Granger).

• Cultural Significance: Unlike their Western counterparts, Chinese dragons are considered auspicious, associated with emperors as their divine protectors and symbols of good governance. During the Han Dynasty, dragons became emblematic of the emperor's divine right to rule.

• Dragons and Empires: Granger explains how dragons symbolize the balance between heaven and earth, with their presence indicating prosperity and their absence signifying turmoil or misrule ([05:48] Kelsey Granger).

Kelsey Granger [05:53]: "Dragons in early China were very much a real, visible, and physical animal. They symbolize rather than oppose, embodying positive forces like rainfall and imperial authority."

Western Dragons: Origins and Transformation

Daniel Ogden outlines the emergence of dragons in Western mythology, tracing their evolution from ancient Greek serpents to the iconic winged beasts of medieval Europe.

• Early Depictions: The Greek "dracon" was a large, fiery serpent often associated with supernatural contexts. These creatures were integrated into myths and healing practices, such as those involving Asclepius ([05:48] Daniel Ogden).

• Roman Adaptations: The Romans adopted the dracon, transforming it into "Draco" and later "dragon" in Norman French. As Christianity spread, dragons in the West became more demonic, merging with sea monster myths and acquiring features like wings and legs ([08:44] Melvin Bragg).

• Symbolism Shift: Initially symbols of chaos and evil, Western dragons evolved into representations of formidable adversaries to be overcome by heroes and saints ([41:35] Daniel Ogden).

Melvin Bragg [08:50]: "As Rome passed from paganism to Christianity, the dragon mutated, merging with the sea monster concept and becoming a symbol of evil to be defeated by saints like St. George."

Dragons in Roman and Greek Cultures

Juliet Wood explores the role of dragons within Roman and Greek societies, highlighting their use as symbols of power and military might.

• Roman Symbolism: Romans utilized dragons as emblems of the empire's strength, often incorporating them into war monuments like the "draco," a military standard. These dragons were less about myth and more about representing the might of Rome ([13:05] Juliet Wood).

• Greek Healing Sanctuaries: In Greece, real snakes, referred to as "dracones," were kept in healing sanctuaries. These animals played roles in therapeutic rituals, such as licking wounds to promote healing ([07:10] Daniel Ogden).

Juliet Wood [13:01]: "Romans turned dragons into symbols of imperial power, contrasting with the Greek view where dragons also held healing and protective connotations."

Dragons in Folklore: European and British Perspectives

The discussion shifts to medieval European folklore, where dragons often symbolize chaos or greed but can also embody protective qualities.

• European Myths: Dragons are frequently depicted as hoarders of treasure and adversaries to heroes. The legend of Fafnir from Norse mythology illustrates the transformation of a greedy individual into a dragon guarding his gold ([26:42] Daniel Ogden).

• British Folklore: Juliet Wood highlights British dragon legends, such as the Red and White dragons of Wales symbolizing the struggle between the Britons and Saxons. These tales often intertwine with Christian narratives, portraying dragons as remnants of paganism defeated by saints ([28:24] Juliet Wood).

Juliet Wood [19:45]: "In Welsh culture, dragons like the Red and White dragon symbolize national struggles and are deeply embedded in stories of prophecy and conquest."

Religious Significance: Dragons in Biblical and Christian Contexts

Melvin Bragg and Juliet Wood discuss the portrayal of dragons in religious texts and their symbolic defeat by Christian saints.

• Biblical Dragons: The Old Testament references dragons through creatures like the Leviathan and the serpent in Eden. These dragons are often embodiments of chaos and evil to be subdued by divine or heroic figures ([17:17] Melvin Bragg).

• Christian Saints vs. Dragons: Numerous saints are portrayed as dragon-slayers, most notably St. George. Unlike military saints like Theodore who physically slay dragons, most other saints accomplish this through prayer or divine intervention, symbolizing the triumph of good over evil ([32:38] Melvin Bragg).

Melvin Bragg [33:07]: "St. George's battle with the dragon isn't just a tale of martial prowess but a representation of Christian virtue overcoming pagan chaos."

Gender and Dragons: The Case of Empress Wu Zetian

Kelsey Granger examines the intersection of gender and dragon symbolism in Chinese history, focusing on Empress Wu Zetian, China's only female emperor.

• Dragons and Masculinity: Traditionally, dragons were symbols of male imperial authority in China. Empress Wu Zetian, however, subverted this by emphasizing phoenix symbolism, which represents femininity and the empress's own power ([22:36] Kelsey Granger).

• Symbolic Inversion: By positioning phoenixes above dragons in her architectural projects, Wu Zetian challenged the established gender norms and the supremacy of dragon symbolism associated with male emperors ([24:32] Kelsey Granger).

Kelsey Granger [24:44]: "Empress Wu Zetian inverted traditional dragon symbolism by elevating the phoenix, symbolizing her unique role as a female ruler in a male-dominated iconography."

Modern Representations: Fantasy and Contemporary Significance

The conversation transitions to the portrayal of dragons in modern media and their evolving symbolism.

• Fantasy Literature: Juliet Wood discusses how dragons in contemporary fantasy have diversified from their traditional roles. They are now often portrayed as intelligent, benevolent beings or complex antagonists rather than purely evil monsters ([41:09] Juliet Wood).

• Cultural Resurgence: In modern China, dragons remain significant through festivals like the Dragon Boat Festival and continued cultural references. They influence everyday language and are integral to national identity, as seen in increased birth rates during dragon years due to their auspicious connotations ([38:25] Kelsey Granger).

Juliet Wood [43:00]: "Contemporary dragon lore, especially in children's fantasy, has transformed dragons into guardians and companions, expanding their role beyond ancient fears."

Conclusion: The Enduring Legacy of Dragons

The episode concludes by acknowledging dragons' versatile and enduring presence in human culture. From ancient symbols of imperial power and mythology to modern icons in literature and media, dragons continue to captivate and symbolize a myriad of human values and fears.

Melvin Bragg [40:44]: "Dragons are a form, not a meaning. They have been refined over centuries to embody whatever has captured the human imagination at different times."

Notable Quotes:

• Kelsey Granger [05:53]: "Dragons in early China were very much a real, visible, and physical animal. They symbolize rather than oppose, embodying positive forces like rainfall and imperial authority."

• Melvin Bragg [08:50]: "As Rome passed from paganism to Christianity, the dragon mutated, merging with the sea monster concept and becoming a symbol of evil to be defeated by saints like St. George."

• Juliet Wood [19:45]: "In Welsh culture, dragons like the Red and White dragon symbolize national struggles and are deeply embedded in stories of prophecy and conquest."

• Kelsey Granger [24:44]: "Empress Wu Zetian inverted traditional dragon symbolism by elevating the phoenix, symbolizing her unique role as a female ruler in a male-dominated iconography."

This episode of In Our Time provides a comprehensive exploration of dragons, illustrating their multifaceted roles across different cultures and historical periods. Through insightful discussions and expert analyses, listeners gain a deeper understanding of how dragons have been perceived, symbolized, and integrated into human societies throughout the ages.