In Our Time: Margery Kempe and English Mysticism

Podcast: In Our Time – BBC Radio 4
Date: December 25, 2025
Host: Melvyn Bragg
Guests: Miri Rubin, Catherine Lewis, Anthony Bale

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the extraordinary life of Margery Kempe (c.1373–1438), the visionary mystic from medieval Norfolk, whose dictated autobiography is considered the first in the English language. The panel explores Kempe’s spiritual experiences, her controversial public persona, her relationships with Church authorities, and the unique legacy of her autobiography. The discussion situates Kempe within a wider context of English mysticism, her intellectual influences, and the societal suspicion women visionaries often faced.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Life and Family Background

• High Status Origins:
  • Margery Kempe was born around 1373 to a prominent merchant family in Bishop’s Lynn (now King’s Lynn), a key port town.
  • Her father, John Brunham, held important civic roles: “He served as coroner and juror and MP and five times as mayor.” (Miri Rubin, 05:43)
• Marriage and Motherhood:
  • Married John Kempe around age 20—common for Englishwomen in that era.
  • She had 14 children, though high child mortality meant the actual number of births was likely higher.

2. Spiritual Crisis and Initial Visions

• First Vision:
  • After her first difficult childbirth, Margery experienced severe physical and mental anguish, compounded by an unconfessed sin:
    • “She was physically ill and then she had a lot of mental anguish over an unconfessed sin… The first visions she has are terrifying—demons breathing fire and attacking her… in the middle of all this… Christ appears, very handsome, clad in purple, sits on the side of her bed and says, ‘Daughter, why have you forsaken me, when I never forsook you?’” (Catherine Lewis, 14:16)
• Self-Harm:
  • Her misery led to episodes of self-scratching that left life-long scars.

3. Women, Devotion, and the Church

• Religious Environment:
  • Women in mercantile families had some access to literacy and religious texts. Margery owned a book of prayer.
  • Women's roles in the church were strictly limited and they were barred from preaching.
• Visionary Tradition:
  • Margery Kemp’s experiences aligned her with a Northern European lineage of female mystics:
    • Hildegard of Bingen, Marie of Oignies, Bridget of Sweden (“particularly around the issue of crying as allowed… finding her way to a chaste marriage.” – Miri Rubin, 18:14)
  • “She is inspired by Bridget of Sweden and particularly by her Marian devotion.” (Miri Rubin, 19:46)

4. Authority, Heresy, and Suspicion

• Religious and Secular Surveillance:
  • In a climate of anxiety over Lollard (proto-Protestant) heresies rooted in John Wycliffe’s reforms, visions—especially by outspoken women—were eyed with suspicion.
  • Heresy as Thought Crime: “Identifying it... involves drilling down to what normal people are doing, surveillance and censorship.” (Anthony Bale, 12:54)
• Margery’s Persecution:
  • Frequently interrogated on her faith, especially on doctrines such as the Mass and the real presence, and suspected of spreading heresy or fomenting female rebellion.
  • Her travels and adoption of white garb (symbolizing purity/virginity) further fueled suspicion.

5. The Nature and Meaning of Visions

• Discernment and Doubt:
  • Margery herself continuously questioned whether her visions were divine or from the devil, highlighting a central medieval concern about discernment, especially for women.
  • “Even the most learned theologian could have difficulty discerning the origins of a vision… let alone a woman.” (Catherine Lewis, 16:16)
• Modern Interpretations:
  • The panel discusses, but resists reducing, her experiences to mere psychological crises or “madness,” emphasizing the self-authenticating, belief-driven nature of her accounts.

6. Public Ministry, Preaching, and Gender

• Call to Public Life:
  • Margery believed Christ commanded her to share her visions and advocate moral reform, which put her at odds with social norms:
    • “She must go around… she travels and must tell people of her visions… She is essentially going out to correct what she sees as problems.” (Catherine Lewis, 28:06)
• Preaching as a Woman:
  • While maintaining she was not officially preaching (forbidden to women), Margery’s public exhortation and teaching was effectively preaching, especially as evidenced in her parable-telling “at the Bishop of York’s house in Cawood.” (Anthony Bale, 28:46)

7. The Major Pilgrimages

• Jerusalem & Beyond:
  • At around 40, Margery undertook an arduous pilgrimage to Jerusalem, enduring poverty, abandonment, and bullying from fellow pilgrims, who found her manner irksome and her piety excessive.
    • “She’s always there reminding them—don’t mention God’s name in vain…but when she reaches Jerusalem, everything comes together…to actually be in the places… it’s just extraordinary.” (Miri Rubin, 30:20)
• “Gift of Weeping:”
  • Her emotional style, particularly her “gift of weeping” at sacred sites, marked her spirituality and inspired both admiration and annoyance.
• Other Pilgrimages:
  • Later journeys included travels to Rome, Norway, Santiago de Compostela, Germany, and Poland—astonishing for a woman in her 60s with physical ailments (e.g. “she walks something like 800 to 1,000 miles… as a woman who is really struggling.” Anthony Bale, 42:23).

8. Relationship with Church and Gender Norms

• Trial and Patronage:
  • On suspicion of heresy, Margery was questioned by civic authorities like the Mayor of Leicester and the Duke of Bedford, and accused of subverting other women with her example.
    • “Why do you go about in white?... I think you’ve come to lead all our wives away.” (Catherine Lewis, 35:07)
  • Despite suspicion, she also found supporters and patrons in most cities she visited.
• Visit to Julian of Norwich:
  • Significant spiritual encounter with the respected anchoress Julian, seeking advice and confirmation about her experiences.

9. The Book of Margery Kempe: Creation and Legacy

• Dictation and Reception:
  • Margery, being illiterate, dictated her life to various scribes—including possibly her own son—resulting in a complex, collaboratively authored text that set itself up as hard-won and “misshapen” in its initial versions (“so evilly written, nobody can understand it.” – Anthony Bale, 20:44).
• Genre and Reliability:
  • The book is confessional, hagiographic, and rhetorical, designed to present Margery as divinely inspired—and yet not a simple autobiography by modern standards.
  • “It’s not an impartial document… It’s also a work of rhetoric and has an ambivalent relationship with the whole truth.” (Anthony Bale, 21:38)
• Historical Influence:
  • The manuscript was read by Carthusian monks and was printed in the early 1500s in heavily edited forms.
  • Rediscovered in the 1930s, it sparked new appreciation across Christian denominations, lauded by figures such as Graham Greene.

10. Marriage, Domestic Life, and Character

• Enduring Marriage:
  • Margery’s relationship with her husband is unusually well-drawn for the period, showcasing both tensions and support.
    • “When she first says she wants to live chaste, he says… that's a really good idea, but just not yet. But he does enable her to follow that lifestyle.” (Catherine Lewis, 49:11)
  • Later in life, as he becomes disabled, she cares for him, reflecting mutual obligation and affection.
• Unique Portrait:
  • The book’s domestic realism is unparalleled: “In English writing, this is unique… a portrait of old people in their marriage, this domesticity… very moving.” (Anthony Bale, 50:05)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Margery’s Inspiration and Legacy:
  • “Seven centuries after she was alive, you can still feel what an extraordinary and occasionally exasperating woman she was... She wrote the first ever English language autobiography despite being illiterate, which is simply solid, iconic behaviour.”
    – Caitlin Moran [03:25]
• On Margery’s Visions:
  • “Christ appears... sits on the side of her bed and says, ‘Daughter, why have you forsaken me, when I never forsook you?’”
    – Catherine Lewis [14:16]
• On Heresy and Surveillance:
  • “Heresy is essentially a thought crime… involves a degree of surveillance and drilling down to what normal people are doing.”
    – Anthony Bale [12:54]
• On Margery’s Public Role:
  • “She is effectively preaching... telling a parable and getting herself in very dangerous territory.”
    – Anthony Bale [28:46]
• On Pilgrimage Hardships:
  • “She is repeatedly bullied on her way to Jerusalem… they steal her money, dress her in a ridiculous cloak, and her maidservant abandons her. To eject her from... the Christian group is very, very painful...”
    – Anthony Bale [32:56]
• On the Rediscovery of Her Book:
  • “She becomes almost a counterpart to Joan of Arc. They have La Pucelle, we have extraordinary, resilient, tough eccentrics like Marjorie Kempe.”
    – Miri Rubin, bonus material [49:03]

Timeline / Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | Highlight | |---------------------------|------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------| | Caitlin Moran’s intro | 01:47 | Modern enthusiasm for Margery Kempe’s boldness and autobiography | | Margery’s early life | 05:38 | Family, marriage, first pregnancy and distress | | First visions and self-harm| 07:12 | Christ’s apparition, self-scratching, return to daily life | | The suspicion of heresy | 09:22 | Lollardy, surveillance, 15th-century context | | Visionary tradition | 17:52 | Influences of Northern European female mystics | | Dictation and reliability | 20:11 | Collaborative authorship and challenges with her autobiographical text | | Spiritual discernment | 16:15 | Margery’s doubts about origins of visions | | Public ministry/preaching | 28:06 | Founding her own ‘public ministry,’ risk of heresy accusations | | Jerusalem pilgrimage | 29:37 | Hardships, “gift of weeping,” conflict with other pilgrims | | Trial in Leicester/Duke of Bedford | 35:07 | Suspicion and support on her travels | | Visit to Julian of Norwich| 38:55 | Seeking validation from contemporary holy women | | Final years and continued journeys| 40:23 | Epic journey to Gdansk in her 60s, resilience | | Legacy and rediscovery | 47:41 | Impact, Catholic and Anglican enthusiasm after 1930s rediscovery | | Bonus content: marriage, family | 49:09 | Depiction of Margery’s marriage and striking realism | | The book as a portrait of medieval womanhood| 51:16 | “To me, this is the book.” – Miri Rubin |

Tone and Language

The panel’s tone is scholarly yet lively, often admiring Margery’s eccentricity, tenacity, and courage. Their language is accessible, with a mix of historical context, anecdote, and critical reflection. The episode balances deep respect for Kempe’s religious zeal with awareness of her complexities and the contentious reception she received, both in her own time and later centuries.

Summary Takeaways

• Margery Kempe was a trailblazing, controversial, and charismatic figure who defied the gender and religious expectations of her time.
• Her autobiography is a rare, candid record of a medieval laywoman’s interior and public life.
• While often marginalized and suspected of heresy, she attracted devotion and support, and her story resonates with issues of gender, authority, and religious authenticity.
• The rediscovery of her Book in the 20th century secured her legacy as a foundational figure in English spiritual and literary history.

For listeners seeking a vivid portrait of medieval religiosity, gender, and personal conviction, this episode offers both depth and lively debate among experts at the top of their field.