In Our Time: Pope Joan
BBC Radio 4 | Release Date: February 27, 2025
Host: Melvyn Bragg

Introduction to the Legend of Pope Joan

In this episode of In Our Time, host Melvyn Bragg delves into the enduring legend of Pope Joan, a purported female pope who, according to medieval accounts, disguised herself as a man to ascend to the papacy in the 9th century. The story, rich with themes of gender, power, and deception, has been a subject of fascination and debate for centuries.

Catherine Lewis opens the discussion by summarizing the legend:

"In medieval Europe, a story began circulating about a highly learned woman who lived in the 9th century, dressed as a man, traveled to Rome, and became, for about two years, the Pope. Her papacy came to a dramatic end when it was revealed that she was a woman, a discovery that's said to have occurred when she gave birth in the street..."
(00:41)

The Birth and Spread of the Legend

Anthony Bale, Professor of Medieval and Renaissance English at the University of Cambridge, outlines the key elements of Pope Joan's story:

"Joan was born in Mainz to English parents, disguised herself as a man to gain an academic education in Athens, and eventually rose through the ranks of the Church to become Pope John."
(02:04)

Bale emphasizes that the earliest written accounts of Pope Joan emerged in the mid-13th century, specifically by Jean de Meilly around the 1250s. These accounts were later expanded upon by others, notably Martin of Poland in the 1270s, whose chronicle significantly popularized the story.

Catherine Lewis questions the rapid spread of the legend:

"Why would historians include it in their chronicles if it wasn't true?"
(07:37)

Anthony Bale responds by suggesting that chroniclers may have reported popular tales, whether true or not, to reflect societal beliefs:

"It's reporting an interesting, unusual story that they had heard... to give a sense of what the wider populace believes."
(07:39)

Variants and Evolution of the Tale

Laura Callas, Senior Lecturer in Medieval English Literature, notes the variations in the story's retellings:

"The first account by Jean de Meilly does not name Joan, merely describing an unnamed female pope who gives birth in the street and is brutally executed."
(09:21)

Over time, the narrative incorporated elements of diabolical influence and expanded the moral lessons associated with Joan’s downfall. By the late 13th century, the story had become widespread, featured in approximately 400 manuscripts and translated into multiple languages.

Iconography and Rituals Stemming from the Legend

Melvin Bragg introduces the folklore surrounding verification rituals to prevent future imposters:

"In 1291, Robert de Uzes describes porphyry marble stools at the Lateran Palace used to verify the Pope’s sex. A cleric would check for testicles, and upon confirmation, the Pope would be officially recognized."
(27:33)

Although the existence of such rituals is debated, the tale reflects societal attempts to address and dispel the myth of a female pope.

Interpretations and Moral Lessons

The legend of Pope Joan serves as a cautionary tale illustrating the perceived natural order of male dominance within the Church and society at large. Catherine Lewis and Anthony Bale discuss how the story has been used over time:

• Medieval Catholic Writers: Employed the tale to argue against women’s roles in the Church, emphasizing moral lessons about deceit and the inherent limitations of women.

• Protestant Reformers: Utilized the legend as propaganda to undermine the Catholic Church, asserting that a female pope indicated broader institutional corruption and doctrinal flaws.

Melvin Bragg further explores the philosophical implications:

"The story can be seen as a parable about truth. Joan could pass as a man and perform effectively, but the truth of her female identity ultimately exposed her deception."
(22:13)

Cultural Impact and Modern Adaptations

Laura Callas highlights the legend's persistence in modern media:

"From 19th-century novels to 20th-century films and plays like Carol Churchill's Top Girls, Pope Joan continues to inspire reinterpretations that often cast her in a more sympathetic and empowered light."
(35:23)

Modern adaptations tend to emphasize Joan's intelligence and the tragic consequences of her deception, diverging from the original misogynistic undertones.

Historical Validity and Scholarly Debate

Throughout the episode, the panel examines the lack of concrete historical evidence supporting Pope Joan's existence. Anthony Bale and Catherine Lewis discuss how the story's ubiquity in medieval chronicles contributed to its perceived authenticity, despite the absence of corroborating records.

Catherine Lewis inquires about periods when belief in Pope Joan fluctuated:

"Were there times when the idea of Pope Joan was more or less accepted?"
(24:17)

Anthony Bale explains that belief in the legend waned with the advent of the Reformation, as Protestant critiques began to leverage the story against the Catholic Church, prompting Catholic scholars to attempt to debunk it using emerging historical methodologies.

Gender and Power in Medieval Society

The legend of Pope Joan is emblematic of medieval society's rigid gender norms and the anxieties surrounding women who transgressed these boundaries. Melvin Bragg reflects on how the story underscores the constructed nature of gender roles:

"Joan’s ability to pass as a man challenges the essentialist views of gender prevalent in the Middle Ages, highlighting longstanding discourses on gender, power, and societal exclusion."
(37:26)

Laura Callas adds that Joan's story complicates our understanding of medieval gender dynamics, presenting a figure who defies conventional classifications and evokes societal unease.

Conclusion: The Legacy of Pope Joan

The episode concludes by acknowledging Pope Joan’s lasting influence as a symbol of both the limitations placed on women historically and the enduring fascination with stories that challenge societal norms. Melvin Bragg summarizes:

"The legend of Pope Joan, while likely fictional, offers profound insights into medieval attitudes towards gender, authority, and the intersection of truth and myth."
(39:34)

The multifaceted discussions illuminate how a single legend can traverse centuries, adapting to the cultural and ideological landscapes of each era while continuing to provoke critical reflections on power, gender, and historical narrative.

Notable Quotes:

• Catherine Lewis at [00:41]:
  "In medieval Europe, a story began circulating about a highly learned woman who lived in the 9th century, dressed as a man, traveled to Rome and became, for about two years, the Pope."

• Anthony Bale at [02:04]:
  "Joan was born in Mainz to English parents, disguised herself as a man to gain an academic education in Athens, and eventually rose through the ranks of the Church to become Pope John."

• Melvin Bragg at [22:13]:
  "The story can be seen as a parable about truth. Joan could pass as a man and perform effectively, but the truth of her female identity ultimately exposed her deception."

• Laura Callas at [35:23]:
  "From 19th-century novels to 20th-century films and plays like Carol Churchill's Top Girls, Pope Joan continues to inspire reinterpretations that often cast her in a more sympathetic and empowered light."

Upcoming Episode Preview:

Next week, the podcast will explore John Soane, the son of a bricklayer who became a renowned architect, best known for designing his house in London, A Grand Tour of Europe in Microcosm.

Produced by Elianne Glaser
BBC Studios audio production for Radio 4