Eleanor of Aquitaine

Summary

In Our Time: History – Eleanor of Aquitaine

BBC Radio 4 | January 28, 2016
Host: Melvyn Bragg
Guests: Lindy Grant (University of Reading), Nicholas Vincent (University of East Anglia), Julie Barrow (University of Cambridge)

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Overview

This episode explores the remarkable life and legacy of Eleanor of Aquitaine, often regarded as the most powerful woman of the Middle Ages. The discussion traces her journey from heiress of vast lands in southern France, through her marriages to two kings—Louis VII of France and Henry II of England—to her role as a political actor, prisoner, regent, and dynasty founder. The podcast delves into the political complexities of 12th-century Europe, debates the myths and legends around Eleanor, and assesses her long-lasting impact on European history and monarchy.

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Power Structures in Eleanor’s Early Life

[02:24–04:51]

• Fragmented France: Nicholas Vincent explains that France was split into semi-independent feudal principalities, with the king holding nominal power over ambitious and often-warring dukes and counts.
  • “We are in a sort of game of thrones situation with these... dukes and counts and so forth, rising and falling and in constant competition.” – Nicholas Vincent [03:12]
• Eleanor’s Family and Lands: Her family controlled a vast, wealthy region—the Duchy of Aquitaine, encompassing Gascony, Poitou, and others—yet their control was itself fractured, with numerous sub-lords.
  • “They have an enormous trade there from wine... they are immensely wealthy, but... their control over that region is itself fractured.” – Nicholas Vincent [03:39]
• Cultural Distinction: The region was linguistically and culturally distinct, with Occitan spoken further south, setting it apart from northern France.
• Early Life Records: Virtually no information survives about Eleanor's early life, including her appearance or character, due to minimal chronicling of daughters at that time.
  • “The birth of daughters is not something that the chroniclers take notice of...” – Nicholas Vincent [05:03]

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Marriage to Louis VII of France

[06:13–10:36]

• Becoming Queen at 13–15: Eleanor married Louis VII, the heir to the French throne, after her father’s unexpected death. The marriage was a political maneuver to protect her inheritance.
  • “It was always a gamble, it was always more likely to be challenged. And then there was the huge question of who that girl, woman would marry.” – Julie Barrow [07:09]
• Power Transfer: Upon marriage, Louis assumed control of Aquitaine's territories and wealth, with Eleanor holding little true power during their union—her status would have improved had she produced a male heir.
• Diplomatic Significance: Their marriage marked a rare, symbolic journey of the French king to Bordeaux, highlighting Aquitaine’s importance.

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The Second Crusade and Marital Breakdown

[10:36–16:09]

• Crusade Participation: Eleanor accompanied Louis on the Second Crusade (c.1147–49), a rare move for a queen. Other noblewomen also participated, viewing it partly as a pilgrimage.
• Antioch Incident: In Antioch, where her uncle Raymond ruled, rumors spread about Eleanor’s closeness to him. Some chroniclers hinted at scandal, but modern historians see more likely political strategy rather than romance.
  • “John of Salisbury says that Louis loved Eleanor in a very childish way, that he was passionately in love with her, and he became extremely jealous...” – Lindy Grant [13:27]
• Crusade Failures: Disagreements over strategy with Louis and rumors surrounding Eleanor led to a deterioration of the marriage.
• Rumors and Legends: Later stories spun elaborate rumors of affairs and Amazon-like martial exploits, which panelists agree have no factual basis.
  • “This is the fortean times of its day. This is nonsense... projecting onto this woman all sorts of ideas of the evils of womankind.” – Nicholas Vincent [15:04]
• Annulment: Their marriage was annulled on consanguinity (close kinship) grounds—a common legal convenience among aristocrats.
  • “All aristocratic marriages at this time were in theory a nullable...” – Nicholas Vincent [16:09]

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Eleanor’s Second Marriage: Queen of England

[16:28–19:34]

• Swift Remarriage: Eleanor quickly married Henry Plantagenet (soon Henry II of England). The match stunned the French crown and shifted geopolitical balance—the “jackpot” for Henry due to Eleanor’s lands and claim.
• Enduring Myths: More stories swirled about Eleanor’s morality, spun by later generations for dynastic or gendered reasons, especially when political opposition flared against the Plantagenets.

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Courtly Love Myth & Eleanor’s Influence

[19:34–23:58]

• Courtly Love Legend: The panel debunks the notion that Eleanor “created” the culture of courtly love. This idea is rooted in later, likely satirical writings, not contemporary evidence.
  • “This book is probably a piece of satire... and certainly it didn't reflect any sort of reality going on at Poitiers...” – Lindy Grant [21:50]
• Patronage and Power: Unlike other royals, Eleanor did not found many monasteries; her wealth’s uses are somewhat mysterious but likely supported a lavish court and extensive religious life.
  • “She was allowed only a very limited control... She gave away rents. She probably did a lot of shopping, Lindy. And... this was an extremely pious household.” – Nicholas Vincent [23:19]

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The Revolt against Henry II

[23:58–30:40]

• Supporting Her Sons’ Revolt (1173): Eleanor backed her sons in their rebellion against Henry II, perhaps as her only path to influence amidst rigid patriarchal controls.
  • “The manipulation of her sons against her husband was really the only way that she could exercise political authority.” – Nicholas Vincent [25:13]
• Rebellion’s Course: The revolt saw real warfare, but ultimately Henry II prevailed; Eleanor was captured early in the conflict and spent about 15 years under comfortable but strict house arrest.
  • “She was out of public life absolutely completely until the mid-80s...” – Julie Barrow [31:15]
• Portrayals of Transgression: Rumors—like Eleanor dressing as a man when captured—symbolized fears about women disrupting “natural” social order.

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Rule in Widowhood: Power as Queen Mother

[31:37–36:48]

• Release and Regency: Upon Henry II’s death in 1189, Eleanor emerged as the central political figure. She managed the “Angevin Empire” during Richard I’s absence on Crusade and his later captivity, overseeing administration, raising his ransom, and orchestrating dynastic marriages.
  • “Like a cork out of a bottle... she is determined from that point onwards that she is going to run the show. And she does.” – Nicholas Vincent [31:47]
• Diplomatic Missions: Eleanor made major diplomatic journeys, including to Spain to secure royal brides and ensure alliances.
  • “…she brings Berengaria from Navarre and takes her on crusade to meet up with Richard in Cyprus…” – Lindy Grant [33:32]
• Political Skill: She played a crucial role in cementing the Plantagenet dynasty, especially securing support for King John, her youngest son, after Richard’s death.

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Eleanor’s Legacy and Dynastic Impact

[36:48–42:40]

• Holding the Empire Together: Eleanor is credited with maintaining the Plantagenet domains; her death quickly heralded their collapse and paved the way for the Hundred Years’ War.
  • “…it is probably no coincidence that the whole thing collapses more or less at the time of her death, that somehow or another she is the survivor who’s held this whole thing together.” – Nicholas Vincent [37:46]
• Magnetic Reputation: In her elder years, chroniclers grudgingly admitted her political force, lessening their focus on earlier moral sniping.
  • “You get some chroniclers who are sort of reluctantly admitting that she is a force of nature.” – Julie Barrow [39:02]
• Religious Patronage: Fontevraud Abbey was a major focus of Eleanor’s patronage and became the dynasty’s burial site.
  • “She built a wall around it... commissioned the tombs for the two kings.” – Lindy Grant [41:48]
• Influence on Female Rule: While her progeny included powerful queens (notably Blanche of Castile), Eleanor’s unique combination of authority and influence was unmatched for centuries:
  • “Thereafter, the kings of England did not want another one like that... thereafter there is no real queen that matches her in terms of political influence.” – Nicholas Vincent [41:58]

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On the legendary nature of Eleanor’s supposed exploits:
  “This is the fortean times of its day. This is nonsense...” – Nicholas Vincent [15:04]

• On the changing attitude toward Eleanor:
  “You get some chroniclers who are sort of reluctantly admitting that she is a force of nature... while she’s doing it, have to recognize that she’s extraordinary. But as soon as she’s dead, all the mythologizing carries on and returns.” – Julie Barrow [39:02]

• On the collapse after Eleanor's death:
  “It is probably no coincidence that the whole thing collapses more or less at the time of her death, that somehow or another she is the survivor who's held this whole thing together.” – Nicholas Vincent [37:46]

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Additional Insights (Bonus Material)

[43:10–45:47]

• Family Connections & Scandals: Stories like Eleanor’s sister Petronilla’s elopement leading to war, and the complex web of family ties that shaped politics but are underexplored by historians.
  • “There are lots of members of this family, there are all sorts of cousins and so on of Eleanor who play a big part in all of this, and they are generally written out of the story.” – Nicholas Vincent [44:10]
• Daughters’ Fates: Eleanor’s daughters with Louis VII had notable careers, including one serving as regent and crusader.
• Courtly Love Revisited: Marie of Champagne (Eleanor’s daughter) was a patron of romantic literature and may be loosely connected to Eleanor’s legendary court, though direct evidence is scant.
• Eleanor as the 'Queen Victoria' of her Age: Her descendants intermarried across European royalty, making her a matriarchal link for generations.

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Key Timestamps

• 02:24 – The political landscape of France and Eleanor’s family lands
• 06:13 – Eleanor’s marriage to Louis VII and transition to Queen of France
• 10:36 – Eleanor’s role in the Second Crusade and marital disputes
• 16:28 – Annulment, myths, and marriage to Henry Plantagenet
• 19:34 – Black legends, courtly love, and Eleanor’s image
• 23:58 – Aquitaine, exercise of power, and fabled court
• 23:58 – The great rebellion against Henry II
• 31:37 – Eleanor’s release, regency, and rise as dynasty architect
• 36:48 – Eleanor’s support for John and dynastic stability
• 39:02 – Reputation in her later years; chroniclers’ grudging respect
• 41:48 – Fontevraud Abbey as dynastic mausoleum
• 43:10 – Bonus: family connections and untold stories

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Conclusion

In this rich discussion, Eleanor of Aquitaine emerges as a pivotal figure whose life bridged cultures, dynasties, and centuries. The panel distinguishes historical facts from the abundant myths, showing Eleanor’s true legacy: her deft navigation of power in a male-dominated world, her foundational role in the rise and spread of the Plantagenet dynasty, and her lasting impact on European history. Her life story reflects both the possibilities and perils faced by powerful women in the Middle Ages, and her influence—spanning centuries—remains unmistakable.

Transcript

[Melvyn Bragg]

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[Julie Barrow]

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[Lindy Grant]

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[Julie Barrow]

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[Lindy Grant]

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[Melvyn Bragg]

Thank you for downloading this episode of In Our Time. For more details about In Our Time and for our Terms of Use, please go to BBC.co.uk radio4. I hope you enjoy the program. Hello. Eleanor of Aquitaine was the most powerful woman in 12th century Europe, possibly in the entire Middle ages. Born in 1122, she inherited land from the Loire down to the Pyrenees, about a third in modern France. At 15, she married the king of France, Louis VII, and later joined him on the Second Crusade. She became stronger still after their marriage was annulled, as her next husband, Henry Plantagenet, became Henry II of England. Two of their sons, Richard and John, became kings, and she ruled for them when they were abroad. By her death in her 80s in 1204, Eleanor had Plantagenet children and grandchildren in power across Western Europe. This led to competing claims of inheritance, and for much of the next 250 years, the Plantagenets and the French kings battled over Eleanor's land. With me to discuss Eleanor of Aquitaine are Lindy Grant, professor of Medieval History at the University of Reading, Nicholas Vincent, professor of Medieval History at the University of East Anglia, and Julie Barrot, University Lecturer in British Medieval History at the University of Cambridge. Nick Vincent where did the power line what we now call Western Europe when Eleanor was young?

[Nicholas Vincent]

Well, we're talking about a situation in which these great power structures, the Holy Roman Empire and the Kingdom of France, have fractured into a series of semi independent feudal principalities. So France is divided into a series of duchies and counties, with the King of France claiming a degree of overlordship but not really being able to implement policy on any basis day by day in any of those regions.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Was he based in Paris? Yes, on the Isle de la Cite.

[Nicholas Vincent]

Literally in the island of France So he's in the island of French royal power in the middle of a sea of these feudal barons.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Now, what was. So there are all these. It's split up into. But were they competing with each other? Were they fighting each other? What was going on?

[Nicholas Vincent]

Yeah, I mean, they come, they go. We are in a sort of game of thrones situation with these. With these competing barons, these dukes and counts and so forth, rising and falling and in constant competition with their neighbors.

[Melvyn Bragg]

What do we know about the position of Eleanor's family just when she was born?

[Nicholas Vincent]

They're immensely powerful, but their power is itself peculiar. So they're in the south.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Can you describe?

[Nicholas Vincent]

They're down in the south, so that they're that bottom left hand corner of France from the Loire down to the Pyrenees. They have an enormous trade there from wine, from the. The. The river trades that go into the Atlantic. They are immensely wealthy, but they too rule over a territory that is div. A series of feuding sub lords, counts and visans, so that their. Their control over that region is itself fractured.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Is it. Could you generally be called Aquitaine or is that not sufficient?

[Nicholas Vincent]

Yeah, I think Aquitaine is the best way of describing it because it comprises a series of counties and regions like Gascony and Poitou, and all of these fall under the general name of Aquitaine.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Are we talking about a specific language here? Is there a generalized form French around the place, or is a lot of what we would call dialects in this?

[Nicholas Vincent]

There's a lot of dialect here. So the further south we go, we're getting into a language where the French for yes is oc and it's therefore Occitanes. It's the southern French version of northern French. Oui. And I suspect that even as in the 19th century, a large part of that would have been incomprehensible to people from the north of France.

[Melvyn Bragg]

And these are songs of the Avern are in that, aren't they?

[Nicholas Vincent]

Yeah, so precisely. So we're in that sort of region.

[Melvyn Bragg]

What do we know about her early life?

[Nicholas Vincent]

Surprisingly little. We don't know when she was born, we don't know where she was born.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Maybe general idea of the year, though.

[Nicholas Vincent]

I hope otherwise sometime in the early 1120s. So 1122, 1124, something like that. But there's an enormous amount of mythologizing that goes on later. So there's an enormous desire to pin her down to a particular location, a particular date.

[Melvyn Bragg]

But her grandfather and her father were. Is this true? Were thought to be troubadours, lovers of the art of Song.

[Nicholas Vincent]

Certainly her grandfather. Her grandfather had helped introduce that sort of poetry, probably from across the Pyrenees, probably ultimately from the Arabic world. We're talking about a troubadour culture in parts of southern France with which he is associated.

[Melvyn Bragg]

In those days, the childish father of a man or woman wasn't really a concept, was it? So this high spirited, extraordinary, bold, extraordinary woman left, seemed to have left no trace until she married a man.

[Nicholas Vincent]

That's precisely right. So the birth of daughters is not something that the chroniclers take notice of. And this is a region that is actually very, very poorly recorded in terms of the chronicle record.

[Melvyn Bragg]

So not even a little bit of an indication.

[Nicholas Vincent]

Not at all, really, until the 19th century when people begin inventing all sorts of versions.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Okay, Julie Barrow. In 1137, Eleanor's father died and she married the new king of France, Louis VII. She might have been 13, she might have 15. 15 at the outside. Why did she marry him?

[Julie Barrow]

Well, I mean, why was she married to him? She probably had absolutely little to say about it. William the ninth, the tenth, sorry. Her father died on his way to Compostella and he didn't expect to die. No one expected him to die. And he probably was thinking of remarrying Pilgrimage.

[Melvyn Bragg]

You don't expect to die in a pompous.

[Julie Barrow]

Lots of people, surprisingly, lots of people did, but he certainly didn't. And there are rumors that he was planning to remarry, probably to have a male heir. So when he fell ill on pilgrimage, he knew that he was leaving two daughters and that his oldest, older the two, Eleanor, would be the heiress. But it was complicated for a girl to be an heiress, and it wasn't impossible. We have several examples in the first half of the 12th century of women coming to a throne or coming to some position of responsibility. But it was always a gamble, it was always more likely to be challenged. And then there was the huge question of who that girl, woman would marry and what sort of claims the husband would have on that inheritance. So probably William had to think very fast about what to do. And what seems to have happened is that he got in touch with the French and said, there is that daughter of mine, would you marry her off? And probably knew that that would be to the heir of the French throne. So it probably wasn't something that was desirable from William's point of view, but he had to make do with a very problematic situation.

[Melvyn Bragg]

And so he. It was an arranged marriage that when she would marry the future king of France, or by that time, the then king of France, because His father had died too?

[Julie Barrow]

No, he hadn't died yet, but he had been crowned in his father's lifetime, in 31, when he became the heir after his older brother died. So. And Louis and Eleanor were re crowned after their marriage.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Are we emerging into some sort of recognition of a few facts about her? Do we know what she was like when she got married?

[Julie Barrow]

No, we have no likeness. I mean, her looks were never really described by anyone. We have no idea what she was.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Not just that, her nature or anything she did. She got married. How we do know. Do we know how well she was educated?

[Julie Barrow]

No, we, as Nick said, we know absolutely nothing about the sort of person she was when she married.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Right. So she marries. She marries Louis the Seventh. And where do they set up?

[Julie Barrow]

Well, Louis came to fetch her. They got married in Bordeaux. And that in itself is really interesting because it's the first time in over three centuries that a King of the Franks. So those northern kings went as far south as Bordeaux. So what it meant in diplomatic and political terms was huge. And Louis came with a huge entourage, a lot of knights. They were clearly expecting possible trouble. So he went to fetch her, they got married, and then they went back up north.

[Melvyn Bragg]

And there was no trouble? No, she had access. What sort of access did she have to the territory and wealth? She'd been left.

[Julie Barrow]

Very little.

[Melvyn Bragg]

She had to give it all to him.

[Julie Barrow]

Yes. And he became. As soon as they were married, he became King of the Franks and of the French and Duke of the Aquitanians, and it became his title as well as hers. And as far as we know, she had little autonomous hold on any form of power on Aquitaine during their marriage.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Would her hold on power have been increased had she had male heirs?

[Julie Barrow]

Well, it would have given her status. I mean, clearly, by the time they went on crusades, the fact that she didn't have a son put her in a very fragile position because she had failed the first duty of a queen or any aristocratic woman, which was to produce that male. So I don't know about power, but status and. Yes, definitely.

[Melvyn Bragg]

So she goes on. So let's, let's. Let's turn to that second Crusade, Lindy Grant. She has one daughter when she goes on it. 10 years. About 10 years after the marriage. Now, as I read it in Bernard Clairvaux, she and the king swore on the sword to go to the Crusades. Is that true? If it's true, she's. Well, if she wanted your notes. If it's true, that gives her. She's in a position of some sort of power. I'm trying to find out something about this woman, about to whom what everything happened. You don't know.

[Lindy Grant]

She goes off on.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Who said that? In the notes?

[Julie Barrow]

Not me.

[Lindy Grant]

She goes off on crusade with her husband. He responds to the paper.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Is that unusual?

[Lindy Grant]

Well, this is the first Crusade that a king has gone on. So I suppose there were no precedents because she went. Several other aristocratic women went, and it might seem a rather strange thing to do. But in fact, 100 years later, when Louis's grandson, great grandson, went on Crusade, he too took his wife, and several great ladies of France went too. I think the Crusade was thought of perhaps as a pilgrimage with some fighting, rather than fighting with a pilgrimage. And so perhaps in that context, the women went along as well, and they set off. They went across to Byzantium, to Constantinople, and then across Asia Minor, and they were aiming for Antioch. The expedition was not particularly successful. They fell out with the Emperor of Constantinople, and they were attacked in Asia Minor. And they must have arrived rather relieved eventually at Antioch in March 1148. And Antioch was under the control of Eleanor's uncle, Raymond of Poitiers. So they were received there with great splendor. But that's when things really begin to go wrong. So what happened between Eleanor and Louis? We know that there was some kind of real quarrel between them there. About 10 years later, John of Salisbury, writing about it, says that Raymond of Poitiers, who was Eleanor's uncle, was very charming, and Eleanor enjoyed talking to him, and Louis became very jealous.

[Julie Barrow]

And.

[Lindy Grant]

John of Salisbury says that Louis loved Eleanor in a very childish way, that he was passionately in love with her, and he became extremely jealous and very, very upset. Within 30 years, there were rumors that this had been a sort of huge affair between Eleanor and Raymond, and we simply don't know. Maybe she just enjoyed chatting to him.

[Melvyn Bragg]

But also Louis turned down Raymond's strategic suggestion that they attack in a different way, which was, according to Elena, what I've read, better than going for Jerusalem, because they were too threadbare in terms of weight of arms. Louis objected that he wanted to get out of Antioch, didn't he? So he went to Jerusalem. It was a disaster. And then they had to sail back.

[Lindy Grant]

Yes, Louis wanted to go to Jerusalem, and Eleanor probably took Raymond's view that actually they would be much better to fight up in northern Syria. So there may well be that that might have been the quarrel between them. But Abbot Suger writes to Louis in 1149, saying, May I dare to praise the Queen to you. But please put aside your bitterness towards her until you get back home.

[Melvyn Bragg]

But it's at that time, Nick and Liz Vincent, that other things are brewing in the dark legends of Eleanor. That she had an affair with Saladin, that she fought herself, fought at the front in the Crusade. Is this just the way that great people at that time when rumor took the place of fact?

[Nicholas Vincent]

Yes. I mean this is the fortean times of its day. This is nonsense. It's projecting onto this woman all sorts of ideas of the evils of womankind. And this idea that she fights as an Amazon warrior, going back to what Lindy was saying just there. I think also there's an awful lot of politics going on here. This isn't just about personalities. It's. Raymond of Antioch had a perfectly legitimate claim to the Duchy of Akitaine. He was the. He was the younger brother of Eleanor's father. And his exclusion from a. Was an extraordinary act on behalf of the King of France. So they may well not just have been dallying with one another in an emotional sense. It may well have involved political negotiations over the future of Akitan, the they.

[Melvyn Bragg]

So this is rumor and fancy. No Saladin. No. No fading Amazon. Fine. Well, we got that out of the way. She had a second daughter, though the Pope tried to keep their marriage together, failed. It was annulled. On what grounds, Nick?

[Nicholas Vincent]

Was it like all marriages, it was annulled on the grounds of consanguinity. So they were closely related to one another. And all aristocratic marriages at this time were in theory a nullable because it was very difficult to find marriage partners who weren't in some way related to one another.

[Melvyn Bragg]

And then the sort of the we she's abducted by twice for people who want to sort of take her wealth rather than herself. But in the end married this 19 year old young man, not yet king, but about to be King Henry and he soon was king and she went to England as Queen of England.

[Nicholas Vincent]

Yeah.

[Melvyn Bragg]

There's again another rumor that she had with his uncle or father. Yes, I was. I wasn't going to go quite near the bounders that. But your father. Thank you. Thank you for reminding me. And then she married the son.

[Nicholas Vincent]

Yes. So again that marriage happens incredibly quickly. And she's really at this stage she's a sort of walking title deed. She. She is the. The jackpot that they're all after. They want these rich lands in southern France. And Henry marries her within a matter of weeks of her divorce from Louis. And that comes as a terrible shock to the kings of France, because this is the last thing that the king of France wants, this great rival on the Loire to scoop all this territory in the south.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Yes. And then what happens when they start to have sons? Sons, Sons and sons and daughters and daughters and daughters, makes it even worse. But Julia, Julie Barrow, they're. We have what became known as the Black legend, which Linda's talked about a little. Can you develop that a bit? The stories that there are, a lot of them. Is it all smoke, no. Fire?

[Julie Barrow]

Well, yes, I think most of it is. Our stories about how somehow she went against nature. So she's rumored to have slept with her uncle, rumored to have slept with the father of her future husband. Later, she, well, is accused of having turned against her husband, which goes against nature, because men and women were supposed to be one. So there is that whole thing about her being. Going against the natural order of the world. And so even if you have all those different stories, they actually make sense together, but there is no reality behind it that we can discern. And a lot of those stories came out late. I mean, all the stories about Geoffrey, so Henry's father, the first time they really are out, as far as we can tell, is the 1180s, so quite a long time afterwards. So there is also the sort of anti. Angevin, antiplantagenets.

[Melvyn Bragg]

But is the 1180s. I'm not trying. I'm not being pruned here, but is the 1180s such a long time after? We're still in the 12th century. I mean, there's strong oral histories in those days.

[Julie Barrow]

No.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Yeah, but I can remember things from 30 years ago.

[Julie Barrow]

Not about not remembering, but it sort of made sense in a moment when lots of people in England started criticizing the dynasty and trying to show them as, to a certain extent, monstrous. And she was a centerpiece of that new image that was drawn of the family.

[Melvyn Bragg]

So the political thing was the English didn't take to her, didn't want her there, and began to use black propaganda.

[Julie Barrow]

I don't know about the English, but there was certainly. There were certainly critics. And going for the woman was always the easiest way of doing that, especially the powerful women.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Yes, yes. Lindy. Lindy Grant. The idea is Aquitaine, courtly love, Eleanor's involvement in all that, Eva herself creating it. Now, what sort of validity does that have?

[Julie Barrow]

That's.

[Lindy Grant]

I think, another legend. Eleanor was given, sent by Henry to hold court at Poitiers in the late 1160s with her son Richard, who was made count of Poitiers. And people began. People have thought that she held these extraordinary courts that were focused on poetry, the courtly love poems of the south of the Occitan, the troubadour poems. The real piece of evidence for this, the piece of evidence around which this developed, is again a piece of writing Produced in the 1180s by somebody called Andrew the Chaplain, a book on courtly love which he wrote probably in Champagne, where he was at the court of Eleanor's daughter, Marie, Countess of Champagne. And this book features famous women holding court, courts of love, in which they judge various cases, like, you know, is it proper for a man to commit adultery? And should you commit adultery with this sort of person or that sort of person? And it's supposed to be the famous women, Marie of Champagne, Eleanor, Eleanor's niece, the Countess of Flanders, who sit there and hold these courts and make these judgments. Now, this book is probably a piece of satire, very much based on Ovid's De Amore, and certainly it didn't reflect any sort of reality going on at Poitiers, but it lies at the basis of this idea of Eleanor as being the queen of the troubadours.

[Melvyn Bragg]

It is persistent, though. And what did she do with all this wealth and influence at these courts? I mean, there she is in a position of enormous power. She's incredible wealth. Her baggage alone is said to have slowed down the movement of the Second Crusade and be partly responsible for the defeat of. Well, again, this is in the notes. Defeat, because it took so much time and space. Anyway, put that to one side. What's she doing with herself.

[Lindy Grant]

In Poitou? She and Richard are running it fairly effectively for Henry much later.

[Melvyn Bragg]

That's much later on.

[Lindy Grant]

Well, in the 1160s and then until, of course, she joins the revolt against Henry of her sons. What's surprising then and later is that she doesn't seem to use this wealth to found new monasteries in the way that the rest of the family do. Her husband, her sons, her husband's predecessors, and her predecessors as queens of England. So she doesn't seem to do that. It's very unclear what she spends all this wealth on. She gives to Fontefraud, but otherwise patronage.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Nunnery.

[Lindy Grant]

Nunnery, which is on the border of Anjou and Poitou, and which has received gifts both from her family and from Henry's family in the past.

[Melvyn Bragg]

If you wanted to come in, I.

[Nicholas Vincent]

Think the question there is what real control she had over her own estate. And I suspect she. She was allowed only a very limited control in the alienation of land. She couldn't really give away very much land. She gave away rents. She, she probably did a lot of shopping, Lindy. And I think also that because of this legend, we overlook the fact that this was an extremely pious household. She has an awful lot of chaplains and clarks, probably a very elaborate liturgical life to her own court, which is obviously in total contradiction to this legend of all of these courts of love. But maybe a lot of that money went on a very elaborate court ritual.

[Melvyn Bragg]

But sorry, can I, can I move on to something you mentioned, Lindy? Can I move on to that now in Nick, why did she back her, her, her older son's started a rebellion against their father in 1173. Can you describe how that came about? A and B, why she decided to back them?

[Nicholas Vincent]

Okay, a couple of things. We're talking about an empire that is monstrous in the minds of contemporaries. The empire that Henry II established through all of these scattered estates, through marriage and inheritance that he brings together is something completely unseen in France since the time of Charlemagne. It's self consciously projecting itself as something entirely new. And that's one of the reasons the chroniclers are so critical of it. And the big question was whether that would be passed down as a single estate to these sons. Henry II and Eleanor had several sons, so there was always the question of which of those sons would get which bits of the empire. And then throughout her life, Eleanor's problem was the actual day to day control that she had over her estate. And I think the manipulation of her sons against her husband was really the only way that she could exercise political authority.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Why did letting get away with it for so long?

[Nicholas Vincent]

I don't think that he did actually. So he, he lent her a degree of author. This is Henry II. He lent her a degree of authority in the 1150s in England, then in part two in the 1160s. But it does all go very wrong. It also went wrong at a terrible moment for Henry II. In 1170, Henry II got mixed up in the murder of Thomas Becket.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Yes.

[Nicholas Vincent]

He either commanded.

[Melvyn Bragg]

I'm glad you brought that in. I was wondering when he would make his entrance.

[Nicholas Vincent]

Well, he, he certainly placed, you say mixed up.

[Melvyn Bragg]

A lot of people think responsible for is a better phrase.

[Nicholas Vincent]

No, I'm being very cautious in the language. I mean, people said that he commanded the murder and certainly I don't think he was terribly upset. He may have been upset by the circumstances, but the disappearance of Beckett was a great thing for Henry ii. But that in the eyes of contemporaries, brands him as a son of Satan. He is, he is the devil's spawn and it makes a rebellion against him that much more easy to comprehend.

[Melvyn Bragg]

So, Judy Balo, can you tell us what form this rebellion took? The. He has five sons. How many of them getting one of them has already been crowned future future king, hasn't he? One of the sons?

[Julie Barrow]

Well, he's.

[Melvyn Bragg]

He's called the next king or the future king.

[Julie Barrow]

The young King.

[Melvyn Bragg]

The Young King. That's it. Right. So he was involved and the three of the others, and so they decided to. They came to France.

[Julie Barrow]

Well, they were in France and Henry, the young King, was in a very unfortunate position that he had the title. Officially he was fully king, but he had no power, no land.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Why did his father do that? To clear things up.

[Julie Barrow]

You mean the coronation?

[Melvyn Bragg]

Yeah.

[Julie Barrow]

It's unclear. There was a settlement in 69, when under. In an agreement with the French king, where what Henry II did was to get his sons to do homage to the French king for several parts of the empire, which was a way of not doing it himself. So he probably thought that it was a very clever move and he gave Henry, was his oldest, the patrimony. So in theory, Anjou and Normandy and England were for Henry. So he gave Henry a theoretical hold of all that, but no practical power. And that young man, after a few years, couldn't bear it anymore, apparently. So what he did was to run to his father in law, who was French king, and there Louis treated him as the real king, and the two younger brothers, Richard and Geoffrey, followed. And from then on, mayhem erupted. And to cut a very long and complicated story short, by the summer of 74, it's obvious that Henry II has won.

[Melvyn Bragg]

But there's real fighting, is there?

[Julie Barrow]

Because there is real fighting, yes. Scotland, England, everywhere. I mean, and what is interesting, that it's not so much a rebellion against the dynasty, it's just people choosing between two kings. So there was a legitimate ring to it. And there are examples, there were examples in the past of that sort of thing working out. It just didn't.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Now the big question is, Lindy, why did Eleanor take the part of her sons?

[Lindy Grant]

Yes, it was a terrible mistake. I think that everybody was having to make the decision as to which way which king would win. And I suppose Henry is looking rather on the back foot at this stage, and young Henry looks like the future. And Eleanor was not the only person who made the wrong call. So did a very large number of the aristocracy, both in France, in the French territories and in England. And I think it looked as though the young men, young Henry and his younger brothers would Win. And that. That would be the winning side. But in the end, Henry II won and. And that left Eleanor, who had been captured by him. Eleanor, a prisoner then for a very long time. I mean, 15 years.

[Melvyn Bragg]

15 years. But hold on, is there other real battles and stuff? Does she get caught and imprisoned before the battle? Can you just give us some idea? So she says she's on their side. They're in France. She's in. In London.

[Nicholas Vincent]

No, she's. She's on.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Yeah, yeah, she's in France, too.

[Nicholas Vincent]

Yes.

[Melvyn Bragg]

But how does she get caught so easily?

[Nicholas Vincent]

She's. She's sort of trapped before the real fighting starts, and she's carried off into captivity by Henry ii.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Oh, he gets her right. And goes straight to the. For the jungle. Okay, fine. Yeah.

[Nicholas Vincent]

Think this is an incredibly complicated, extremely dysfunctional family. Everyone's related to everyone else. That all of these people who get mixed up in it, the kings of Scotland, the Council of Flanders, the kings of France, they're all very closely interrelated. They've all got marital histories going back over a hundred years. And Eleanor then goes off into captivity in England.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Judy.

[Julie Barrow]

And what is interesting, that she's completely left out of the political settlements of the rebellion. In the autumn of 74, Henry makes peace with his sons and actually makes a compromise with them. And she's not there. And she's not there physically, but she's not there at all. She's not considered as part of the story. She's at that point completely taken out of public view as if. So she's not seen as one of the players, which is quite interesting.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Does this relate back to what you were saying earlier in the program, that you was going against nature by rebelling against her husband and he gave her house arrest for the next 15 years?

[Julie Barrow]

Yes. And there is a story, and we don't know whether it's true, that when she was captured, she was dressed as a man. And whether it's true or not doesn't really matter. What matters is what it says again, about her going against social order and natural order of the world. And she's in a house arrest, strictly house arrest, for about 10 years. Probably quite comfortable, though, because she probably spent some of it in Salisbury, where there were recently refurbished royal apartments that she liked very much. And we know from the pipe rolls that she had a very decent income, even if all her lands were confiscated, so we don't have to imagine her in a dungeon. But she was out of public life absolutely completely until the mid-80s, and then.

[Melvyn Bragg]

She reemerged when Henry II died in 1811. 89. And with great force, perhaps her greatest force in the last part of a very long life. She lived into her 80s.

[Nicholas Vincent]

Yeah, like. Like a cork out of a bottle. I mean, this is. This is a. An abusive marriage in which she's been locked up for 15 years and out she pops. And she is determined from that point onwards that she is going to run the show. And she does. For a large part of the 1190s, Richard, her son, King of England, went off on crusade and was then captured on his way back to England. Ransom for a huge amount of money. Eleanor essentially ran the show, even the.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Show being the whole of what you called previously an empire, aiming to match that of Charlemagne.

[Nicholas Vincent]

Yeah. And above all, raising the ransom for Richard, making sure that Richard was going to be let out of captivity, did. Dealing with the Pope. She negotiated a series of marriages throughout that decade that really set the family up for the next hundred years. The whole of politics after 1189 has Eleanor very, very much stamped on it.

[Melvyn Bragg]

And she's very active in this, isn't she, Linda? She goes across the Pyrenees to get brides for her sons and. And granddaughters and so on. She builds. She actually seeds the Plantagenets wherever she can.

[Lindy Grant]

I think she's very conscious of the dynasty, even though, in spite of the way her husband has treated her, she's obviously very close to her sons, Richard and John, and to her children. She's based at Fontevrault for a lot of this period.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Which is exactly where in France?

[Lindy Grant]

Well, it's, as I said, just on the border of Poitou and Anjou, so just a bit north of Poitiers, but I suppose from there she can get to England fairly easily. Richard asks her to go off, as you say, down to Spain. She has. Perhaps she has connections down there. And she negotiates Richard's marriage with Berengaria of Navarre. She brings Berengaria from Navarre and takes her on crusade to meet up with Richard in Cyprus. And then in 1200, King John asks her to go and choose a new bride, a member of the family who.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Is going to be. That's her youngest son, isn't it?

[Lindy Grant]

That's her youngest son who is now King of England. And he has to. He's in the middle of negotiating a very difficult treaty with the King of France. And the King of France insists that a granddaughter of Eleanor, a daughter of the King of Cassandra, will be married to the heir to the French throne. And Eleanor is sent all the way to Castile, where her daughter is queen, to choose this small daughter to go back to become queen of France. And so. And it's a really important diplomatic visit, as well as just choosing this child who is going to play this very important role.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Anyway, Lindy's talked about taking over Nick. What did she do? Richard's away at the Crusades. Does she run everything? Is she now proper regent? People do what she says. She's at last got power. She is the queen of England.

[Nicholas Vincent]

She's certainly got a lot of power. There's an enormous power struggle going on in England. So the Justicias and the people that Richard had left behind, they all go to war with one another. John, Richard, the younger brother, gets mixed up in that war. The French stick their or in. There's a great degree of complication there, but Eleanor is at the center of it. Just going back to something Lindy said there, too. Fontevrault today is a rather remote place. It's in a wood, you know, in the middle of nowhere. But it lies pretty much on the Loire. And the Loire is one of those great rivers of France. You go up the Loire, you're in the Atlantic. You can go pretty much wherever you want. So it's really at an axial point. It's at a very, very important meeting point in France.

[Melvyn Bragg]

How did she raise. How did she raise the money to get Richard out of Germany, the ransom money, which we were told was colossal?

[Julie Barrow]

Well, the administrative machine of the Androvine monarchy was at that point very strong. So there was all sorts of things she could pull out to get money out of the people, which it has raised extraordinary amount of. Of money before his crusade. And it sounds as if that ransom was actually. It was quite a popular thing that she didn't seem to have had that much trouble getting people, because he was popular, because he was popular and because it was. I mean, having once king in captivity in Germany didn't look very good at all. So I think that was not particularly difficult. But what is interesting at that stage is that she doesn't just do that, but she gets mixed up and deeply involved in all sorts of really important and not womanly things, like choosing the next Archbishop of Canterbury. And we have letters of people addressing her as the person in charge. So it's not just about dealing with her son. It's not just her as a mother. She clearly, at that point, as Nick said, seen as in charge, even if she doesn't have any precise title.

[Melvyn Bragg]

And she switches immediately to John when Richard dies, doesn't she? Lindy and shores him up.

[Lindy Grant]

Yes, she does. She acts very much as Duchess of Aquitaine. She ensures she goes to do homage for Aquitaine to the French king, and that sort of ensures that Aquitaine will stay in the family. She supports John against another potential heir, who is Arthur of Brittany, the son of an older brother. And I think it's her. And her support for John against Arthur, I think makes a real difference. It really brings the aristocracy of Aquitaine and indeed Anjou, in behind John. So she plays a very, very important role there.

[Melvyn Bragg]

It's a colossal juggling act that she's done. I mean, one isn't exaggerated. She's here, there and everywhere, pulling the whole. Holding the whole thing together in a way that possibly nobody else could have done.

[Nicholas Vincent]

Yes, I think that's right. And the circumstances of her death. We're now sort of heading towards Strawberry 4. The circumstances in which she dies. It is probably no coincidence that the whole thing collapses more or less at the time of her death, that somehow or another she is the survivor who's held this whole thing together. And when she dies, it really collapses pretty much immediately.

[Melvyn Bragg]

And then we're going to the Hundred Years War. The fact that she's responsible for the Hundred Years War, really, is that what you're saying?

[Nicholas Vincent]

I don't think that we don't need to blame her for it, but certainly if England hadn't had those lands in southern France and that hadn't remained with the English crown thereafter, when King John lost the northern bit, England wouldn't have had that toehold in France and there would not have been a Hundred Years War. And so, in a sense, yes, she does determine the next 300 years of English history.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Extraordinary, isn't it?

[Nicholas Vincent]

Yeah.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Take that in, Julie. There's been, at this time when she's being very effective with Richard and, well, effective in certain people's point of view with Richard and John. And so has this sniping stroke, mythologizing stopped? She's quite old, 70s and early, 80s.

[Julie Barrow]

You get some chroniclers who are sort of reluctantly admitting that she is a force of nature. And the most extraordinary text we have is by someone called Richard of Devizes, who describes her as that, as a force of nature, as a formidable woman. So you can feel that by that stage, partly because, probably because she's an elderly woman, she's there as a Queen Mother. So all the sort of stories about her sexual life are not relevant anymore at that stage. You feel that people, while she's doing it, have to recognize that she's extraordinary. But as soon as she's dead, all the mythologizing carries on and returns. So there is a brief window when you feel that suddenly she's looked at as she is, and then it. It just vanishes. So it's a brief moment.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Lindy, can I ask you about her connection with Fonteureau? And she gave a lot of money to that, so we haven't stressed enough. Although she didn't give money to build great objects or cathedrals. She did. She was very pious, it seems, and this mattered a great deal, too. Can you tell us a bit about that place and her place in that place?

[Lindy Grant]

Yes, Fontefert, as we say, have said it was a great nunnery. It was seen as a reformed order of the 12th century. And it's in this very specific place. It's in the county of Anjou, but the diocese of Poitiers. So it was absolutely on the borders of the two. And so Eleanor's family had given to it, and so had Henry's family. And, in fact, Henry and Richard were great supporters of Fontevrault. Both of them were real architectural patrons of the abbey as well. Eleanor retired there. She built a wall around it, whereas Richard builds a posh cloister. She just builds a protective wall. But she did give it a very grand processional cross, and she gave it some wonderful silken cloths and things like that. And the other thing is that I suppose she turns it into the sort of dynastic mausoleum. Henry died at Chinon, fairly close to Fonteferau, and so his body was brought to Fonteferau for burial. After all, he had given so much to it.

[Nicholas Vincent]

Yes.

[Lindy Grant]

Richard died a long way away from Fontevre, but I think it's Eleanor who insists on bringing his body there to be buried alongside his father. And then Eleanor, I think, commissions the tombs for the two kings.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Can you summarize very briefly, Nick? I'm sorry, but her influence on other queens at the time and in her dynasty, because she bred queens as well as everything else.

[Nicholas Vincent]

Yeah, she did. I think that thereafter, the kings of England did not want another one like that. And there is a clear difference between the sort of power that she exercised. She's the most powerful woman in medieval Europe, probably. She's certainly. Probably the richest. She. She has this sort of imperial style to her, and that thereafter there is no real queen that matches her in terms of political influence.

[Melvyn Bragg]

She travels on all these journeys in.

[Nicholas Vincent]

Great state, I presume, one assumes. So Lind is looking skeptical there, because there are queens of France and there are Others who sort of try to step into the shoes.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Skepticism has a severe time limit away.

[Lindy Grant]

I would just say that the one queen who really does rival her influence and power is the granddaughter that she bought from Castile, who became becomes Blanche of Castile, Queen of France, mother of St. Louis, and actually has a political career that probably rivals Eleanor's.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Well, there you go. Thank you very much indeed. Lindy Grant, Julie Barrot and Nicholas Vincent. Next week we'll be talking about chromatography. And thank you for listening.

[Lindy Grant]

And the In Our Time podcast gets some extra time now with a few minutes of bonus material from Melvin and his guests.

[Melvyn Bragg]

What did I miss out?

[Lindy Grant]

Eleanor has a younger sister when she comes to be Queen of France. And the younger sister comes to One of Louis VII's cousins, the Count of Vermandois, elopes with the younger sister, who's called Petronilla. And this turns into war and between Louis and the Count of Champagne. And it's a dreadful war because during it, Louis besieges the town of Vitry in Champagne, and the townspeople of Vitry take refuge in the church and Louis fires the church and these people are all burned. And it's seen that he's launched this vicious and terrible war almost because of Eleanor's younger sister, that that whole story.

[Nicholas Vincent]

Is very much behind Louis going on crusade. And I think that that's an important point. There are lots of members of this family, there are all sorts of cousins and so on of Eleanor who play a big part in all of this. And they are generally written out of the story. We. No one has properly traced all of that, Eleanor's side of the family.

[Melvyn Bragg]

What happened to. What happened to the two daughters of Louis?

[Julie Barrow]

The first two daughters? The first two daughters, they both married brothers, the Count of Blois and the Count of Champagne. And the one who married the Count of Champagne had an extraordinary career. She was regent of the county twice, and then she went off to the Holy Land to die. So she's a woman who had an interesting, interesting life.

[Melvyn Bragg]

Did Eleanor keep in touch with them?

[Julie Barrow]

Well.

[Lindy Grant]

This is this whole issue of the courts of love. Marie of Champagne is a great patron of romantic literature. Would one call it that of Chretienne de Troyes? And she is the person who features very largely in the book on courtly love by Andrew the Chaplin. But exactly how much Eleanor and Marie are in touch is very unclear. And certainly, certainly I don't think that you can say that Marie went to the court at Poitiers, as people tried to argue earlier.

[Nicholas Vincent]

You get a whole series of modern historians trying to work out the psychology. Was she a good mother? Wasn't she a good mother? And we really don't know, but we can say that she's rather like Queen Victoria. She's related to every dynasty in Europe. Somehow or another is related to Eleanor.

[Lindy Grant]

There are many more history and discussion programmes from Radio 4 to download for free. Find these on the [e-mail] radio4.

[Melvyn Bragg]

At thebc we go further so you see clearer. Through frontline reporting, global stories and local insights, we bring you closer to the world's news as it happens. And it starts with a subscription to BBC.com, giving you unlimited articles and videos ad free podcasts, the BBC News channel streaming live 24. 7 plus hundreds of acclaimed documentaries. Subscribe to trusted independent journalism and storytelling from the BBC. Find out [e-mail] join.