Catherine Lewis (2:50)

Well, according to the story, Joan was born in the German city of Mainz to English Parents. And while she was still relatively young, she left home disguised as a man. She traveled with her parents do. Well, we. We don't know anything really about her parents.

Anthony Bale (3:06)

What do we know a little bit?

Catherine Lewis (3:07)

Well, what we can speculate about them, the idea of them being English and living in Mainz is that they may have something to do with the English mission to Mainz or to that part of Germany that was led by Saint Bonif the century before. But with that speculation, we don't actually know anything specific about her parents.

Anthony Bale (3:25)

Okay, you were going on when I interrupted you.

Catherine Lewis (3:28)

So we got to her being still at a relatively young age, and she. She leaves home. She goes with her lover to Athens, and she's disguised as a man. The reason that they both go to Athens is because they want to get a university education. And apparently Joan excelled in this setting. She was an excellent scholar and she had no equal. Then she travels on to Rome. She's still dressed as a man, and she' calling herself John. And she becomes a teacher herself. So she actually teaches the trivium, the academic syllabus. And she gains a reputation not only for her academic brilliance, but also for her moral integrity to such an extent that she actually manages to rise through the ranks of the Church. She becomes a cardinal, and then she's unanimously elected Pope as the Successor to Leo IV, who died in 855. We might come to where I've got the information that. From within a minute. But what I'm essentially giving you here is a composite of the key elements of her legend, thought to be. Thought to be. Yes. So she. But she is elected Pope, allegedly, at the. On the death of Pope Leo iv. And she is Pope for two years, seven months and four days. And she. She apparently exercises the office of Pope very well indeed, with one exception, which is that she does not follow the celibate lifestyle required of a pope. And she becomes pregnant and gives birth very publicly in the street as part of a procession.

Anthony Bale (4:58)

You've told the whole story in one answer, but we can go back to the beginning of it. She was attracted, rather than to get a better education.

Catherine Lewis (5:05)

That's what we're told. Yes, that. That's the reason for traveling there, because she wants to gain an education. And the reason that she dresses as a man is that this is a form of education that would not be allowed to her as a woman, because women did not receive that kind of specific university education.

Anthony Bale (5:20)

But she had no trouble in disguising herself. That's. That's one of the key things, isn't it. Do we know how she disguised herself?

Laura Callis (5:27)

No, not in the.

Catherine Lewis (5:29)

What. I suppose what I'm giving you is just the outline at this point. There are. In later iterations of the story, we do start to get more detail, but really all that we're told is that she dresses as a man. And we assume that her impersonation was very convincing because it's only at the point where she gives birth that people realize that, in fact, she was a woman all along.

Anthony Bale (5:49)

Just to speculate a touch, how would she disguise herself as a man by.

Catherine Lewis (5:55)

Well, I suppose by wearing clerical dress. And I suppose one might argue that clerical dress in that period, I mean, I suppose the word dress, we. We think of it, it's more of a robe, I suppose, and it would be conceivably quite easy to disguise a woman's body under a robe. And I assume, although the. The legend isn't specific about that, I assume that that is the implication of it.

Anthony Bale (6:19)

When did the legend. How was it instigated and when?

Catherine Lewis (6:22)

Well, she's supposed to have lived in the 9th century, as I've said, but it's actually not until the mid 13th century that the legend is first written down.

Anthony Bale (6:30)

That's a long gap.

Catherine Lewis (6:31)

It is a long gap, and it's possible that the story was circulating in oral form before that, but obviously we can't tell for sure. What we do know is that the first written version was produced by a man called Jean de meilly in the 1250s. And he includes it in a chronicle that he's written. And interestingly, he prefaces it with the words to be verified. So it's something that he's going to include in his chronicle, but he's not necessarily sure that it's definitely true. It might be true, but it might not be. But he still includes it. So his is the earliest written account. And then fairly soon after, we have another account written by somebody called Stephen of Bourbon. And he is not writing a chronicle, he's actually writing a handbook for preachers. And he basically tells the same story as Jean de Mais, but he adds in a novel element, which is that Joan's ascendancy to the papacy was achieved with the help of the devil. And that becomes important in later versions. But the most important version of all, the most influential version, is the one that appears in a chronicle written by Martin of Poland. He's writing in the 1270s. There is a little bit of debate about whether he wrote the story of Joan or whether somebody else included it in the chronicle, but that doesn't really matter for our purposes. The point is it becomes part of Martin's Chronicle. And Martin's chronicle was hugely popular. It survives in about 400 manuscripts. It's translated into many different languages, and that is essentially the medium by which Joan's story becomes known. And the composite story that you gave at the beginning and that I elaborated on essentially comes from Martin. So he is the basis for all of these later iterations of the story. And it really does appear in hundreds of chronicles. And that's one of the reasons why people started to think that it must be true, because otherwise, why would all of these historians included it in their chronicles?

Anthony Bale (8:24)

Why would they have if it wasn't true?

Catherine Lewis (8:26)

Well, perhaps because they weren't sure that it might be true, or perhaps because they were reporting an interesting, a funny, an unusual story that they had heard. And that's one of the purposes of chronicles as well. It's. It's not just to report things that they believe are factually true, but to give a sense of what the wider populace believes. Sometimes those beliefs might be.

Anthony Bale (8:47)

You mean they can make things up if it. If it helps their case along the way?

Catherine Lewis (8:50)

Well, I mean, possibly, yes. Although sometimes it's. I mean, how could we. How could we tell if they're making something up? But they do think that it's important.

Anthony Bale (8:57)

We ought to be, if we're his historians, so.

Catherine Lewis (8:59)

Well, yes, but. Well, sadly, it's not always as easy as that. But it's this. It's this sense that it's important to know what everyone is thinking. Even if you are reporting things that you, as a chronicler, believe to be untrue or ridiculous, it's still useful to know that that's what other people believe.

Anthony Bale (9:14)

Laura, did this story come with many variations from the beginning?

Laura Callis (9:19)

Yes, it does come with several variations, some of which Catherine's just touched on. The tale sort of develops, if you like, and as Catherine said, it's Martin of Poland, Martinus Polonus, who expands on the tale. But some of the key differences between these chronicle iterations include whether or not Joan is specifically named. So the first chronicle account that we have by Jean de May does not name Joan as the pope. It's an unnamed female pope who is described to have somehow made her way to the papacy and is in procession, gives birth on the street, and because of the. The sort of intense horror of this act undergoes a very brutal execution.

Anthony Bale (10:08)

Can you tell us, Anthony? Anthony, can you tell us how the legend circulated more widely in the 13th century? That's quite a Long time afterwards, this, this story goes in leaps. We happen then, and a few centuries later, something else happened then a few centuries later. So where are we with the 13th century dimension to it?

Melvin Bragg (10:28)

Absolutely. So, as Catherine said, we have these three key early versions by Jean de Mailly, Stephen or Etienne of Bourbon, and then by Martinus Polonius, Martin of Poland. All three of those are broadly similar versions with some elaborations, and all three come from Dominican writers. And the story seems to be circulating amongst Dominican preachers. The Dominicans are a relatively young order at this point and are famous for their preaching. And one of the purposes of this story seems to be to be used by preachers in their sermons, maybe to illustrate an anti feminist moral or a misogynistic moral, or maybe to illustrate something to do with truth and deceit. And all three of those early versions are from the kind of 1250s to 1270s. So it's taken off within 15, 20 years of it. First appearing in writing in the early 1290s, Jacobus de Varogene, very famous for the golden legend. He also includes a version of the story in his chronicle of the history of Genoa. And there he draws out a very strong anti feminist moral to it, a very explicit anti feminist moral. In fact, I can quote it. He says, woman begins with presumption, continues with silliness and ends with ignominy. And this is the kind of very strident take he has on where the stories come from, and that it's useful as an anti feminist story. By this point, the story seems to be very widely known, widely read, and all the texts that we've talked about are spreading both as chronicles and in this genre of medieval writing called exemplar. And exemplar are small, pithy, quasi historical stories to be used by preachers, and they appear midway or towards the end of a sermon. And so the story has. It has, in modern terms, we might call it a meme. It kind of takes on its own energy and is transmitted very widely, but it is appearing in a particular form of writing, which are chronicles and in preaching texts. By around 1400, the story is certainly known in England, and it's included in one of the preeminent chronicles of the time, which is Ranulf Higdon's Polachronicon. Higdon was a monk in Chester who wrote a world history starting at creation up to the present day. And he includes this story, really taken from Martin of Poland, as an important historical narrative. I've got the text here, if I can read it. I think it's gives a nice sense of what the story meant.

Anthony Bale (13:13)

Too long.

Melvin Bragg (13:14)

I will try and hurry it up, but I'll read it. In the Middle English version he says John Anglicus was born in Magonsia, Mainz, and he succeeded Leo the Pope two jere and five months, two years and five months. But it is said, and we find this in all versions of the story early on it is said, or it is reputed, that or I have heard that it is said that this pope was a woman and brought inyong arce from her country to Athens in the habit of a man by special, by her lover, by her sweetheart, where she profite so greatly in conning in knowledge, in so much that she coming to Rome had noble auditors and disciples to whom she read the art triviale, the trivium of grammar, logic and rhetoric. After that she elect into pope by the favor of Alamen, was get with child by her special, which not being in certainty of the time of her childing, of her childbirth, and going from the Church of St. Peter from the Vatican to the Church Lateranense, the Church of St John Lateran, was delivered between the Colosse, the Colosseum and St. Clement, the Basilica of St. Clement, and buried afterwards. As it is said, this is twice in this little story. It says, as it is said, and then he finishes just by saying, and because of this, the Pope avoids. Leaveth that way shall seema that he should do that for detestation of that chaunce. He avoids this place, the Pope now, because he detests this event. And this pope is not put in the number of other bishops of Rome. This pope is not counted amongst the bishops. And this speaks, I think, to that question you asked of Laura and Catherine about the historicity of it. They say that the Pope isn't counted in the number of popes. And so we can't actually verify whether she fits in.

Anthony Bale (15:04)

Okay, Catherine, why was it important that she dressed as a man?

Catherine Lewis (15:08)

Well, it's important that she dressed as a man because otherwise she would not have been able to, well, get an academic education and she wouldn't have been able to take on a clerical role within the church because, of course, women were forbidden from taking on priestly orders.

Anthony Bale (15:24)

But there had been educated women before. I mean, we're talking about hundreds of years before Stilda and so on and so forth.

Catherine Lewis (15:30)

Absolutely, they had been educated.

Anthony Bale (15:32)

This isn't an entire. This isn't a shock to the system.

Catherine Lewis (15:34)

No, it's not. But the. But the idea that Joe actually specifically goes to a university and gains an academic education. That's what sets her aside. I mean, yes, you're quite right. There have been plenty of other examples of educated women, but they had tended to be women who were in conventional roles within the Church. So these are women who are nuns and abesses. And the whole point about Joan's story is that she. She doesn't take on that role. Instead, she disguises herself as a man, gets an academic education and becomes a priest and then a pope. And all of these were things that were completely forbidden to women. And I think the importance is that she manages to achieve these things partly because of her ability. So she is said to be a brilliant scholar. And a number of commentators later do say that actually she was rather a good Pope up until the point at which she got pregnant and gave birth. But it's not just about her abilities, of course. It's because everybody thinks that she was a man. And this is a really interesting point, because we often think of medieval ideas about gender as being very essentialist and being about biology, and it. If you are a man, you are automatically superior to a woman. But the whole point about Joan's story, fascinatingly, is that it gives us a different idea that gender isn't just a matter of biology, because in the story, masculinity is something that Joan adopts, It's something that she performs. And the implication is that the reason that she does this is precisely in order to gain this education and this position, which otherwise would have been completely unattainable to her.

Anthony Bale (17:06)

So this was the cause of the shock when it was discovered.

Catherine Lewis (17:10)

Exactly, yes.

Laura Callis (17:11)

And this.

Catherine Lewis (17:11)

I mean, this is what's really interesting about it, because the implication of the legend is that there was absolutely no reason to think that Joan was anything other than a man up to the point. And it fits in with the misogyny that Anthony was talking about, really, you know, that in the end, she can't, as it were, escape her female body, and that's what lets her down. But that up to that moment, everybody just assumed that she was a man and she was being pope. And she was doing rather a good job of it, apparently.

Anthony Bale (17:40)

Thank you very much, Laura. Her story took off, didn't it? Hundreds of repetitions, elaborations, embellishment, exaggerations. Can you give the listeners some idea of the storm and the fury that followed this?

Laura Callis (17:54)

Yes. It does sort of escalate over the centuries, and the story gets appropriated and used in different ways as it moves and progresses. Some of those ways maintain the sort of status quo from those earlier 13th century accounts, accounts that we've been hearing about. There's a text by Bartholomeus Plotinus in 1479 which describes the. The story of Joan, leaving it more or less as it is in the previous iterations, but adding, just as Stephen de Bourbon did earlier in the 13th century, the addition of a sort of a diabolical or an evil influence over Joan. And there is a hint towards the end of that account that Bartholomeus is sort of slightly beginning. Question the veracity of this story by saying, you know, this has previously been told by many chroniclers and accounts that in a very vulgar way and in an obscene way. And he sort of finishes by saying that he thinks that this is not an altogether impossible story, nevertheless. So there is still a sense that this is being sort of believed at the end of the 15th century.

Anthony Bale (19:08)

These stories taken up by later writers include later greater writers. Boccaccio, Petrarch, it even appears on tarot cards. So what's going on there? Why is it clutched up so fiercely and advertised and used so intensively?

Laura Callis (19:23)

Yes, well, this is really interesting. Boccaccio sort of really goes to town on Joan, actually, in his. In his account. In his. In his 14th century work called De Mulieris Claris on Famous Women, which is a series of biographies about historical and mythological women. And he includes Joan in this account in a complementary way to begin with. So the story is quite positive for the first half. She's, as we've heard, a very illustrious woman. She's very brilliant, intelligent woman. She's very learned and. And everything goes very wrong from that point. So he starts to use incredibly misogynistic language there, describing her as a sort of an aberration.

Anthony Bale (20:04)

Why do you think he doesn't.

Laura Callis (20:07)

I think that was the sort of a lot of the sentiment at the time. You know, he's a writer who's kind of picking up on perhaps more of the salacious details of the story in order to, you know, entertain his readership in a little bit more detail. He refers to her as a sort of wicked woman. He refers to her lustfulness, that she's got this sort of voracious sexual appetite, which was quite a common trope about women in the Middle Ages. You know, Catherine gestured towards the way in which in medieval culture, women are often seen in these very sort of polarized ways as sort of chaste Virgin Mary typology versus the sort of whore like Eve typology. And so Boccaccio seems to be placing Joan in the later category there, and seeing her as this wicked woman who's brought great, great shame on the church. And then Petrarch takes things even further, actually, and sort of creates this quite dramatic story about the ramifications of Joan being revealed as a woman at the moment of her childbirth. And Petrarch describes how when Joan's gender is revealed on the street, that in Italy it rains blood for three days and three nights. And in France, there miraculously appear many giant locusts with six wings and powerful teeth. And the locusts fly around and then they drown in the sea, but they're sort of golden bodies, as it's described. The vapors of their bodies fly up and corrupt the air and many, many people die, apparently. So Petrarch writes about the way in which Joan's actions disrupt nature.

Melvin Bragg (21:53)

The awe inspiring story of the space.

Anthony Bale (21:56)

Shuttle program unlike any spacecraft we had.

Melvin Bragg (21:59)

Ever flown before, told by the men and women who made it happen.

Catherine Lewis (22:02)

This is vacuum. This is space.

Anthony Bale (22:05)

This is the space shuttle.

Catherine Lewis (22:06)

And liftoff. Liftoff of STS7 and America's first woman astronaut.

Melvin Bragg (22:12)

From the BBC World Service, 13 minutes. Presents the Space shuttle.

Catherine Lewis (22:17)

This is really beautiful out here.

Melvin Bragg (22:19)

Listen now, wherever you get your BBC.

Catherine Lewis (22:22)

Podcasts, this is History's heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas and the courage to stand alone. Including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers in the first World War.

Laura Callis (22:36)

You know, he would look at these.

Catherine Lewis (22:37)

Men and he would say, don't worry, sonny, you'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you. Join me, Alex von Tanzelman for History's Heroes. Subscribe to History's Heroes wherever you get your podcasts.

Melvin Bragg (22:53)

Good Bad Billionaire is back for a brand new season.

Catherine Lewis (22:56)

And this time we're shaking things up on the podcast. Looking back on the lives fortunes of us industry titans.

Melvin Bragg (23:01)

From one of the founders of the American retail giant Walmart, Sam Walton, to.

Catherine Lewis (23:05)

The aviator, filmmaker, property tycoon, playboy and original eccentric billionaire, Howard Hughes. Simon and I are asking if they were good, bad or just another billionaire.

Melvin Bragg (23:15)

That's good Bad Dead Billionaire from the BBC World Service with me, Zing Xing and me, Simon Jack.

Catherine Lewis (23:21)

Listen now. Search for good, bad billionaire wherever you get your BBC podcast.

Melvin Bragg (23:27)

Ever wondered what you would do if you found yourself lost in the wild in the desert, the jungle or the mountains? Would you make the right choices to stay alive? Introducing real survival stories, a new podcast from Noiza. Each week we'll bring you astonishing tales of ordinary people thrust into extraordinary situations.

Catherine Lewis (23:46)

How the heck am I going to.

Laura Callis (23:47)

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Melvin Bragg (23:47)

Am I going to be a pile of bones in the Australian outback, or am I going to make it out? Real Survival Stories, available now, wherever you get your shows.

Anthony Bale (24:00)

Anthony, what does this story tell us about the relationship, then, between truth and fiction?

Melvin Bragg (24:06)

Well, this really is the kind of kernel of the story, isn't it? A Did Joan exist? But then also within the story, what is the truth of her as a pope? That's what we're asking the body, kind of with the body. Joan's body then asserts its truth in this parade when she. She gives. She gives birth. So I think there's two. There's two ways of looking at this. One is about the importance of fiction within medieval historical writing. That this is a medieval historical writing is not necessarily supposed to be true in the historical sense that we think of it today. It's supposed to be morally true.

Anthony Bale (24:41)

Or what's the distinction?

Melvin Bragg (24:43)

That it's something which can be useful for telling us about contemporary morality, using the past to tell a story about that. And that seems to be how this is. This is used. And historians will include prefaces which say, you can use history to see kind of virtues or morals rather than to see facts as we think of them now. But then I think the story itself.

Anthony Bale (25:07)

The moral, the exemplary thing, had authority, didn't it?

Melvin Bragg (25:10)

Absolutely. And I think that word authority is very important here, because medieval definitions of authority or auctoritas are about things worthy of repetition. So anything which, whether it's true or, you know, kind of provably true or morally true, that's what's worthy of repetition, not whether there's some kind of archaeological evidence for it. And then the story itself, I think, is. You can read it as a parable about truth. The story suggests that Joan is able to pass as a man, to be educated as a man, to teach as a man, to be a good pope. But the truth of her body as a biological woman will assert itself. And the clothes can make the man, but the truth will out. And that seems to be one of the things that the story is articulating. And I think it's important that from those early versions of the story from the 13th century, there's a lot of evidence given about where this happened. And this happens on the ceremonial axis in the centre of Rome. This doesn't happen in private. It's something which happens in a very public, humiliating and kind of shameful way. And this is the birth on the road. Yes. And it's happening between the Vatican and the Lateran, the two main sites of papal power and by the Colosseum, the kind of icon of ancient Rome. And the idea is that her body is then publicly displayed as a lie and the truth appears. And I think this connects to a very much a 13th century debate which is raging about truth in philosophy, something that Thomas Aquinas, who's writing at this time, writes about a lot about the proper nature of something as preconceived by God to make it true. And the proper nature of a pope cannot be female, this story suggests. But also this idea of how do you prove the devil from God, that they are also what is a true statement when the devil is everywhere, intervening in everyone's plans?

Anthony Bale (27:12)

Catherine, Catherine and Lewis, were there times when the idea of Pope Joan was more powerfully accepted and less powerfully accepted? And if so, when was that? And why? Why?

Catherine Lewis (27:21)

Well, it does seem that for most of the Middle Ages, people believed the story. And Laura's already alluded to this, that the Vatican librarian, Platina, even though he expresses some reservations with it, he still says he thinks it probably was true. And it does seem, as a whole.

Anthony Bale (27:40)

The Vatican goes along with it.

Catherine Lewis (27:42)

Well, I mean, it's difficult to know. I can't help thinking that perhaps some people in the Church felt that this was such a ridiculous story, that they didn't even need to give it the time of day, and that it wasn't something that they needed to rebut because the very notion of a woman pope would be utterly ridiculous. But generally, it does seem that nobody really brings up any strident objections to the story. This doesn't really happen until we get to the 16th century and to the Reformation. That's the first time at which people really start questioning the story story. And what's really interesting is that Joan plays a part in wider doctrinal arguments between Catholics and Protestants. And what happens is that Joan is now a threat, essentially because in the 16th century, Western Christendom has fragmented whole regions and kingdoms have broken away from the Church and are denying the authority of the Pope. So suddenly, the idea of there having been a woman pope and the. The propagandist use that the Protestants are putting her to is a real threat. And because this is what's happening, all of a sudden, the Protestants are arguing very strongly that Joan did exist. And they are basically saying that this invalidates the. The papacy, the fact that there was a woman pope. They can't claim that they are linked in. In unbroken succession back to St. Peter. Exactly. The fact that she ordained priests invalidates the sacraments. And so on and so forth. And so you have these, ironically, these Protestants, who ordinarily would never believe the word of medieval chroniclers, are drawing on medieval chroniclers and saying, look, all these medieval chroniclers say that Joan existed, so she must have done. And in fact, one of them you asked earlier about dressing and passing as a man, and one of these, Alexander Cook, one of these Protestant writers, he adds a little xenophobia to this because he says that Italian men were so effeminate that it would have been very easy for Joan to pass herself off as a man among them. So the Protestants are saying absolutely that Joan existed. And so all of a sudden the Catholics realise that they actually do now have to counter this. And so we start to have the emergence of works produced in a humanist, historical, methodological tradition. And they are really the first ones that start to comprehensively dismantle the legend because they realize that they, they can't just leave it anymore. They, they have to show that it is categorically not true.

Anthony Bale (30:13)

Anthony, the Church, the Catholic Church, wanted to sort this out. So it introduced a rather bizarre ritual to make sure that future popes who said there were men, were men. Can you discuss that in the most tasteful manner?

Melvin Bragg (30:27)

I will try my best. So, so in 1291, another Dominican, Robert de Uzes, has a vision of the Lateran palace where he describes two porphyry marble stools which are used, as it is said, to verify the sex of the Pope. And this is repeating a rumour which seems to have developed in the wake of the Pope Joan story, that when a pope, a new pope, was installed, they reached Lateran palace and they sat on these two chairs which had holes cut in them. And a junior deacon or a low ranking cleric would feel under the chair and shout, he has testicles. And then everyone would shout, deo Gracias. Thank God for that. And then the Pope would be verified as a man. Now, this story is really a myth placed on top of a myth. It's a rumour placed on top of a rumour. But it was current clearly from least the 1290s, well into the 15th century, and was being told around Rome as fact. And to add a kind of detail to this, these two chairs did exist. They were ancient Roman chairs with a kind of key shaped hole in the bottom, probably bathing chairs or obstetric chairs, but one is now in the Vatican and one's now in the Louvre in Paris, and they were there in Rome. And so this is kind of making sense of a real object by adding a Store on top of it. There is no evidence that this rite ever really happened, though one or two people say they were. They believe it did, but really it's always prefaced with a clause, like the vulgar people say or the common people say, or rumor has it that this is not an established ritual. This is more of a rumor.

Anthony Bale (32:19)

I see. But it was a cautionary tale sent out. Quite a lot of things that have happened in this discussion as a cautionary tale, and this is what people thought at the time. Laura, what's your view of that?

Laura Callis (32:31)

Is it a cautionary tale or is it not a cautionary tale? I think it very much depends on who's using the tale at the time. In the Middle Ages, especially for the Catholic writers, the tale is harnessed as a way of justifying why women should not be ordained, why women's power should be severely limited or completely limited in the Church, and why perhaps women should be limited in various other different ways as well, not least in terms of their sexuality and so on. And then Protestant writers then obviously use the tale as a way of criticizing Catholicism and sort of using it as an exemplary tale in that respect, that, you know, we can't possibly trust the Catholic Church. If they've allowed a female pope on the papal throne, then obviously this is a corrupt and a distrustworthy institution. And it's used in that way as sort of an exemplary text. So it varies in terms of its application. Actually, interestingly enough, there's another use of the tale by Walter Brut in his trial for heresy of 1391. And Brut is one of the early reformers of the Church, along with John Wycliffe, arguing that the Catholic Church are sort of, you know, incorrect in some of the dealings that they're doing, that women should perhaps be allowed to preach, even to potentially be able to consecrate the Eucharist and so on. And during his trial, Walter Brut harnesses the story of Joan, perhaps in an exemplary way, perhaps not. But he's arguing in his refutation of the heresy accusation that Joan is an example of a woman who was ordained allegedly to the papal throne, and that therefore, if her ordination is not valid, then that calls into question the ordination of all the subsequent popes who are supposedly from this direct line from St. Peter. And so Walter Brut is arguing that this is a justification for women having a greater role in the church and for women to be accorded more power in that sense.

Anthony Bale (34:44)

You want to come in, Anthony?

Melvin Bragg (34:45)

Yeah. Just to add to that a very similar moral of the story is taken up by Jan Hus, also an early reformer, who in the early 15th century, uses a story, he calls her Agnes. But he uses the story to say if a woman can become pope, then an unlearned man or a heretic or even the devil could become pope. So it's kind of being used to question the very basis of papal the line of the lineage of the papacy and also the authority of the papacy.

Catherine Lewis (35:15)

The only thing I would add to that, I think, is that. So here we have two examples of. Of people who, on the face of it, we could say are perhaps championing women and saying women could be priests. But as Anthony just said, in fact, it's not really necessarily an argument that women could be priests, but that even a woman could be priest, you know, that anybody could be a priest. So that's quite different to some much more recent feminist appropriations of Joan in relation to issues of women's ordination, which have claimed Joan as some kind of precursor or model in a more positive way, I would say, as a kind of icon, really, of what women might be able to achieve within the church.

Anthony Bale (35:53)

Did a lot of other women try to go down the same path?

Catherine Lewis (35:57)

Well, no, not. I mean, this is the thing. Not as far as we know. It's because it was just simply shut off from women, essentially. It wasn't even a matter for discussion except in these arenas, except people who were far outside the orthodox boundaries of the church. You know, within the Orthodox Church, there was never any question that women could be ordained, although there are certain examples, if we think about abesses. So the women who are in charge of convents, there are certainly examples of abbesses who took on part of the role of priests, and they would often get into trouble. So I'm talking here about women who would preach to their community and they would hear the confessions of their community, and that seems to be as far as they would go. But even that was regarded as. As a step too far by the church authorities. You know, women were not supposed to take on any of the roles of a priest.

Anthony Bale (36:51)

But did she in any way inspire other people to be bold in what they took over in the practices of the Church?

Catherine Lewis (36:59)

Not in a medieval setting, no. And it's really not until, again, not until the present day or the 20th century. I would say that we start to have people seeing her as a potential model in those terms. And I suppose a good example here is Joan Morris, who wrote a book about Pope Joan in 1985. And Maurice was herself a feminist. She was a Catholic. And she was a real campaigner for women's ordination. And interestingly, in her book, she really set out to prove that Pope Joan had existed, and it was because of this agenda that she had. She saw that Joan was a valuable precursor as a woman priest. And indeed, Morris had earlier written a book about the possibility of female bishops in the early church as well. So her work on Pope Joan is that the two of them go together, together, essentially. So she clearly did see Joan in that way as saying what might be possible for women. But that's very much a modern development. It's not something that we see happening in the Middle Ages. It's. It's always much more, you know, women should absolutely not be allowed to be priests. That's the import of the medieval versions of the story.

Anthony Bale (38:07)

Her presence has been. It does endure, doesn't it, Laura? How has Purpose Joan lived on in novels and staging screenplays and. And so on? Let's take it up to date.

Laura Callis (38:18)

Yeah. Well, remarkably right up to the present day, in fact, there have been myriad recreations of Joan's legend, if you like. There are novels from the 19th century, quite a few productions in the 20th century. There is a play by Carol Churchill called Top Girls, in which Joan features. It's set around a sort of dinner party format, and Joan is one of the dinner party guests. And it has a feminist sort of undercurrent in the sense that this is a play about women trying to progress in a patriarchal world, and Joan is given a seat at the table in that play. There have been some other novels in the 20th century. There's a famous one by Joanna Cross, which also inspired one of the films that came out. There are a couple of films, films. There was a film in 1972 and then a subsequent one in 2009 which was based on Cross's novel. And that's quite an interesting interpretation of Joan's legend and life. Quite anti Catholic in sentiment, I think. But actually, the ending of the film has a very positive representation of Joan. Her. Her childbirth on the street is. Is kind of represented in the 2009 film, but not in the shameful. It's public, but it's not presented in the shameful way that the early 13th century chroniclers would have it represented. This is in a much more sympathetic way to her as somebody who's sort of fallen foul of this supposed dishonesty, but she's still seen as a very sympathetic figure. There have been musicals. There's even a sort of an allusion to Pope Joan in the film. That's currently on in the cinema called Conclusion. So her tale is, has resonance currently still.

Anthony Bale (40:15)

Anthony, we're coming to the end now, but what, what does it say about the Middle Ages?

Melvin Bragg (40:20)

For me, this story is an invention of the 13th and 14th centuries, not of the 9th century. It doesn't tell us much about the early Middle Ages, but it tells us a lot about the later Middle Ages. It tells us a lot about the discussions around women's role in the androcracy, the kind of rule of men that the medieval church was and how far a woman can go. And it does that at a time in the 13th, 14th century where women's roles were being increasingly limited in the Church. We think about things like mysticism, beguines and the invention of the witch. These are all happening around the same time. And one of the crucial details in the story that Joan is such a great teacher is about her transgression of this rule that a woman cannot kind of teach like that. So it tells us quite a lot about the construction of the exclusion of women from men's society. I think it also shows us that the questions that we have today about gender and embodiment are very long discursive historical questions. They are things which people have been thinking about for a long time in creative and quite self contradictory ways at times because Joan can pass but she cannot succeed as a female pope. So I think it tells us a lot about those kinds of how medieval society worked out some of these tricky issues and thought through some of these tricky issues around gender, power, exclusion. And then it actually speaks to these quite timeless issues around shame versus guilt where Joan's guilt doesn't stop her shame does. Truth and decision, deceit, truth does conquer her. And about the, the embrace of the fictional past. There is still a little chapel in the centre of Rome which is kind of informally dedicated to Joan. For a long time there was a said to be a stone in the street which kind of warned people against the story of Joan. And then we have these, these porphyry chairs in, in the Vatican. So the story kind of has a material resonance over time. It shows us how the, the material Middle Ages has long shadows.

Catherine Lewis (42:28)

All I was, I was really going to add in, in terms of thinking about what the, the story tells us is actually partly to pick on something that Laura said, which is that you mentioned that the, the novel and the film are quite anti Catholic. And I was just going to add that I think it has always been given sustenance. I think the story from the Reformation onwards by a certain anti Catholic sentiment. And that's one of the reasons why the story story persists, I think, because perhaps not so much anti Catholic, but I, I suppose perhaps suspicion and hostility aimed at the institution of the Church and this sense that people keep coming back to this, this question of her existence and, you know, there is no evidence for her, as we've said. But of course what people say is that there is no evidence for her because the Church destroyed that evidence. I can understand why some people would believe that because. Because we know that there are all sorts of things that the Church genuinely has covered up, you know, criminal activities of various sorts. And it has this reputation of being a body that has suppressed, for example, the role that women played in the early Church. And so I think that gives it another kind of veracity for some people that even though there isn't the evidence, it feels real because they suspect that if Joan had existed, she would have to have been arrested, raised.

Laura Callis (43:47)

I think the other thing that it tells us is the way in which medieval culture is so much more complex and nuanced than we might like to think. We've talked already about the way in which medieval culture very much liked binaries, particularly in relation to gender. And the Church especially wanted to enforce these very strict binary categories of gender. But of course, Joan transgresses all of that and she goes beyond. She can't be so easily fit into those particular taxonomies. And that's, I think, what unsettles a lot of the people in the Middle Ages is that she transgresses those boundaries. She's between certain points. And that's what provides so much anxiety for so many of those readers.

Melvin Bragg (44:34)

Catherine mentioned them briefly, but these saints that are kind of cross dressing and living in different embodiments, and St. Wilga Fortis, who sprouts a beard to protect her chastity, that gender is very, very remarkable in medieval texts and occupies all kinds of fabulous, literally, positions for people in medieval culture.

Anthony Bale (44:53)

Well, thank you very much and thanks to Anthony Bale, Laura Callis and Catherine Lewis. Next week, John Soane, the son of a bricklayer who became a renowned architect and is now perhaps best known for designing his house in London as a grand tour of of Europe in Microcosm. Thank you for listening.

Catherine Lewis (45:11)

And the In Our Time podcast gets some extra time now with a few minutes of bonus material from Melvin and his guests.

Anthony Bale (45:17)

Catherine, what would you like to have said that you didn't get time or opportunity to say?

Catherine Lewis (45:22)

There's this well established type of saint who is a woman who, similarly to Joan, for a variety of reasons, disguises herself as a man and enters a monastery and lives much like Joan lives completely undetected as a man until death, essentially. Although in the case of these saints, it's not a shameful, humiliating reveal. It only happens after death. And it's generally the idea is that when their bodies are being prepared for burial, the monks are astonished to discover that in fact this was not a man, but underneath they have the body of a biological female. We're looking at the people who were writing Joan's story possibly taking this as one of the influences. It would have been a story that a lot of people would have been very familiar, familiar with, and it would have helped to make sense of Joan's story. There were precedents.

Anthony Bale (46:15)

Would you like to add anything, Laura?

Laura Callis (46:18)

Yeah, I think it would be worth picking up on the idea about women's medical, biological, perhaps ontological presentation in the Middle Ages. Anthony touched earlier on the chronicle by Jacobus de Vorajin, where he. He talks about Joan as going against. Against the nature of a woman. And this is something that really does resonate throughout the whole of the Middle Ages in, in the sense that women are set up by their very physiology to be both inferior to men, but also to be susceptible to particular ideas because their bodies were understood to be more sort of fluid and more sort of cold and receptive to immoral ideas and so on and so forth. And so those sorts of ideas about what is natural start to get used to justify moral codes of behavior and sort of. To justify sort of ecclesiastical structures and so on. And so you get this very interesting conflation of sort of, you know, physiological ideas about women, if you like, which then actually get followed through into the theology and so on, which, which, you know, is what really Joan is, is up against in terms of the situation that she's in. And perhaps one of the reasons why she decides that she needs to dress as a man to overcome those. Those prejudices about women in their bodies and their. And their sort of, you know, their ontological situation in the world, if you like.

Melvin Bragg (47:55)

Finally, Anthony, I think we should have perhaps mentioned Julian, who is a late 13th century real world example. Julie Elmer is a. Was a Northern Italian ascetic who was a member of the Humiliati who whipped themselves and strayed into heresy through preaching and teaching. And when she died, one of her followers called Manfreda a woman, declared herself Pope of this group and, and said that when Julie Elmer was resurrected, she would lead a church of Women. That's a very condensed version of the story, but it's an amazing story which is happening just around the same time as this story is starting to flourish. And so there is a sense in which this is with female religious communities, with enthusiastic, mystical communities, with independent women's authority. People like Marguerite Poret. The church is worried about this, this very specific notion of women's power. And Julie Elmer does seem to instantiate that around this time.

Anthony Bale (49:07)

Well, thank you all very much. Thanks very much indeed. I enjoyed that. I'm sure many other people will thank you.

Laura Callis (49:13)

Would you like a cup of tea or coffee?

Anthony Bale (49:16)

I think I'll have some more water.

Laura Callis (49:17)

Water, Anthony?

Melvin Bragg (49:18)

Just some water would be fine.

Catherine Lewis (49:20)

Water. Can I have a cup of tea, please?

Laura Callis (49:23)

I could murder a cup of tea as well, if that's right.

Melvin Bragg (49:25)

I'll have a cup of tea as well.

Laura Callis (49:28)

Thank you.

Anthony Bale (49:29)

In Our Time with Melvin Bragg was.

Catherine Lewis (49:31)

Produced by Elianne Glaser and It is.

Melvin Bragg (49:33)

A BBC Studios audio production for Radio 4.

Catherine Lewis (49:36)

I'm Natalia Melman Petruzella and from the BBC. This is extreme Peak Danger, the most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive.

Melvin Bragg (50:00)

If I tell all the details, you.

Catherine Lewis (50:02)

Won'T believe it anymore. Extreme Peak Danger. Listen first on BBC Sounds. The laws were changing in our country. Women could no longer be discriminated against. It was the dawn of a new era of space flight. NASA started accepting applications from women to be astronauts. That door that had been barred shut for all these years before now actually.

Anthony Bale (50:28)

Was open to you.

Catherine Lewis (50:29)

13 minutes presents the space Shuttle. The inside story of the space shuttle program told by the men and women who made it happen. That was pretty monumental as far as the public was concerned. The first woman astronaut from the United States.

Laura Callis (50:44)

You believe in yourself and you think you can do it.

Catherine Lewis (50:47)

Listen now. Search for 13 minutes presents the Space Shuttle. Wherever you get your BBC podcasts and liftoff. Liftoff of SES7 and America's first woman astronaut.