Loading summary
Transcript74 lines
- [00:00]
Chase for Business Representative
Being a small business owner isn't just a career, it's a calling. Chase for Business knows how much heart and effort go into building something of your own. Manage all your business finances, from banking to payments to credit cards, all in one place with their digital tools. Plus access online resources designed to help your business thrive. Learn more@chase.com business chase for business make more of what's yours the Chase Mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates. May apply JP Morgan Chase Bank Naomi Member FDIC Copyright 2025 JPMorgan Chase &.
- [00:36]
Hiscox Insurance Representative
Co. Hiscock Small Business Insurance knows there is no business like your business across America, over 600,000 small businesses, from accountants and architects to photographers and yoga instructors, look to Hiscox Insurance for protection. Find flexible coverage that adapts to the needs of your small business with a fast, easy online', @hiscox.com that that's his there's no business like Small business. Hiscox Small Business Insurance okay, I have.
- [01:08]
Canva Representative
30 seconds to explain Canva. That's impossible, but here's a glimpse. Canva can take your presentations to another level. With Canva Video, you can generate awesome videos with one prompt. Canva Docs lets you create stunning visual documents, reports, plans, whatever magic write can write in your voice. Using AI and Canva sheets make spreadsheets people will actually like. Canva lets you bring your big ideas to life as fast as you can think of them. Put imagination to work@canva.com.
- [01:41]
Hiscox Insurance Representative
Bloomberg Audio Studios podcasts Radio News.
- [01:51]
David Merritt
Welcome to the City of London.
- [01:53]
Brad Stone
The City of the City.
- [01:53]
Francine Lacroix
The City of London. The next station is Bank. Please mind the gap between the train and the platform.
- [02:01]
David Merritt
The financial heart of the country.
- [02:08]
Hiscox Insurance Representative
The City. The City.
- [02:09]
Canva Representative
Welcome to in the City.
- [02:13]
Francine Lacroix
Stand clear of the doors, please. I'm Francie Lacroix.
- [02:17]
David Merritt
And I'm David Merritt.
- [02:18]
Francine Lacroix
And it's that time of year, Dave. In the city, in the mountains, in the snow.
- [02:22]
David Merritt
It's our favorite time of the year. It's the busiest time of the year. It's the most exhaustive time of year, especially as we limp crawl towards the finish line at the World Economic Forum. It's Thursday afternoon. We thought it was probably about time to get our heads together, pick over the remains of what's been a very busy week. And what the vibes are. What are the big takeaways?
- [02:42]
Francine Lacroix
So geopolitics, of course, a lot of what's happening with AI. But all the conversations continue to return to Donald Trump, less about the President himself, but more about his policies and his rhetoric will be interpreted putting America first and leaving the rest of the world behind.
- [02:57]
David Merritt
Yeah. A couple of hours after we take this, he is beaming in a via zoom into the main plenary hall. He's going to be taking some questions. So rumors have been swirling that he's going to show up. Looks like that's not going to happen. But everyone's still hanging on what his words are going to be this afternoon.
- [03:12]
Francine Lacroix
There's one man we need to speak to. He's Brad Stone. He's editor of Bloomberg Businessweek. Before that, senior executive editor for global technology at Bloomberg News. Also the author of four books on Amazon, but also talking about Uber, Airbnb and the battle for the new Silicon Valley. Brad, thank you so much for joining us.
- [03:29]
Brad Stone
Thank you, Francine. Thank you, David.
- [03:31]
Francine Lacroix
Basically the week has been just trying to figure out AI and the US Chief executives are extremely bullish on what will happen to them. And the Europeans just being a bit depressed.
- [03:41]
Brad Stone
I think the conversation here has been on two tracks, as one, Trump and the global economy are another. But certainly I last year at the forefront of everyone's mind. Last year it was kind of Sam Altman's coming out party. We had him at the Bloomberg House. That's right. This year, Dario Amadei, he's the CEO of Anthropic. He kind of represents the one of he has a partnership with Google and Amazon. But look, this year, even more than last year, I think there's a feeling that we are on the verge of something. You could call it superintelligence, you could call it AGI. In any event, the Kool Aid is being handed out amply and everybody's talking about it and what it means for labor and the global economy and full employment.
- [04:25]
David Merritt
That's right. I remember last year every, everyone was sort of badging themselves with AI without really knowing what, what it might mean. But this year we put some dollar numbers on it all. And of course not. You know, in Washington we had this announcement from Trump about this big new investment initiative with some Cobalt support onto it, but a big number. Stargate, I love the name.
- [04:45]
Brad Stone
Let me provide some context. First of all, Stargate, they bandied about These numbers, a 500 billion probably last dollar investment in a series of data centers and energy sources. So Oracle is involved, OpenAI is involved, and apparently Masasan is raising the money and then Donald Trump, of course, giving the rabbinical blessing to it. But what's so interesting here, and Marc Benioff came to the Bloomberg House and talked a little bit about it yesterday. Is the rivalries, the divides that are emerging in this rush to superintelligence. Microsoft was supposed to be OpenAI's partner at the dance, and there's Larry Ellison. And there's a lot of personality clashes and philosophical divisions around how we build this infrastructure, what it means and who is going with kind of who to.
- [05:27]
Francine Lacroix
Develop it, but who really has the. Because there was also, it was the first fats that we saw, you know, between Elon Musk and, I mean, it was via OpenAI, but actually it was almost a dig at Donald Trump and say, yeah, it's great announcing this, but who has money? There's no money to build any of this yet.
- [05:44]
Brad Stone
Right. And we should say, here we are in Davos and the conversation is really revolving around things that are happening in dc. So I do, I do think that's interesting. So you're right. Elon Musk, an ally of the President's, comes out and tweets or posts on x that maybe OpenAI doesn't really have the money. Now there's a lot of bad blood between Altman and Elon Musk. You know, long, long story there. And so, but he does raise. And I think Elon Musk is right that there's a little bit of vapor around these announcements. Do you remember seven years ago, Donald Trump opening a Macintosh plant in Texas with Tim Cook that had been in operation for eight years? It's the kind of thing that we're going to get a lot of, I think these sort quasi announcements where we're really trying to interpret what are they trying to tell us, but what is the reality behind the presentation?
- [06:34]
David Merritt
Yeah, but I just love that, you know, we've all, since the election, we've been debating when, when, when is this alliance of tech leaders and Donald Trump going to start to sour? Are we seeing that already?
- [06:46]
Brad Stone
No, no signs of it yet. I mean, and that, you know, that is something I'm taking away from Davos, particularly the US CEOs. Francine, you were, you were mentioning that it's quite a different story among the European business leaders, but business leaders, they're putting forth a sense of optimism and excitement that they are bought into this idea that it is time to build. Realistically, it's probably the taxes are coming down, the regulations are going away, and who knows, you know, when he starts to overheat the economy and the bond yields go up and the market crashes, if there will be a different tune. But we're in week one and everybody seems to be on board.
- [07:24]
David Merritt
I mean, Francine in your comments, I mean, I heard you talking to Larry Fink and he said. What was that line? He said, I've never experienced such pessimism about Europe. I mean, isn't that. I keep hearing that this week, and you've been hearing that in all the conversations you've been having.
- [07:35]
Francine Lacroix
I mean, it was funny because Larry Fink, I think tongue in Cheek, was also saying, maybe it's a good entry point. And then I've also heard, you know, you could have collateral benefits from the US because if Donald Trump completely rips up or gets rid of the money that was meant to go into ira, then it could go actually to Europe. Or you could have some kind of, you know, jealousy from the Europeans saying, look, they're deregulating. But my concern when you speak to chief executives, especially off the record, is they understand AI, but they don't really. So AI is everything. It's Strava telling me what route I've taken or not taken because I don't run. But it's also this super human artificial intelligence which could really change everything, like personal robots. So what are we actually talking about, Francine?
- [08:19]
Brad Stone
That's a really pesky question, but it's annoying. It is the good question, right? I mean, right, because how do we get from the chatbots, right, to what Benioff was talking about yesterday, which is the WEF app, will tell you what they think you're interested in because they're using Salesforce's Einstein to suddenly prognostications of a superintelligence that is smarter than humans. Dario Modi coming to the Bloomberg House and saying, we're going to get there by 2027. Sam Altman saying, it's going to happen during Trump's next current term. You know, to be honest, I do think there's some hand waving. I think you're right. And maybe it's not being described all the. Well, because we don't exactly know what it. What it is. But the idea is, and it's very much in vogue here at Davos, that the technology goes and it does things for us. We don't have to supervise it.
- [09:15]
David Merritt
Yeah, but we've heard lots of people say this here as well, interview after interview, that everyone does need to get. The chief executives need to start understanding the applications, and the companies who are applying AI in their organizations are going to be more efficient, they're going to have better customer service, they're going to have a better bottom line. And those who don't and then get left behind. And sorry to Keep coming back to the US Europe thing, but it does feel to what you just said, Brad, again, the Americans are kind of zooming over the horizon here, leaving the Europeans in a cloud of dust, aren't they?
- [09:42]
Brad Stone
Well, I mean, there are some, you know, national or continental champions. The CEO of Mistral was here. Did you, did you talk to him this week, Francine?
- [09:49]
David Merritt
Good boots?
- [09:50]
Brad Stone
I don't know. He did have good boots. I noticed that.
- [09:53]
Francine Lacroix
Like orange boots. Because Mistral, you know, the local is like orange and black.
- [09:56]
Brad Stone
That's right. So, you know, and of course, they are making their play in open source, which is, you know, a powerful technology, so all is not lost. But, you know, Trump coming in here and even this week, his first week, making it clear that this is a national security issue, that the rivalry is with China, and that he will put the muscle of the US government behind OpenAI and the other national champions. Of course, yes. I think we have yet to see that in Europe, and it is somewhat concerning.
- [10:24]
Francine Lacroix
But deep is DeepMind, a British company. I know they're owned by Google, but they still have the headquarters there. Dennis is British. He thinks about things from more from a European perspective.
- [10:33]
Brad Stone
And yet because of the ownership by Google, because the. The brains of DeepMind are our power. The Gemini large language model. I think we can really more realistically think about it as US Technology at this point.
- [10:46]
Hiscox Insurance Representative
Point.
- [10:47]
David Merritt
And you mentioned China. I just. Another thing that has been really striking to me has been kind of the absence of China from this form and in its place, a huge presence by India. They have not one, but two houses on the promenade. They have many ministers of state here. Modi is not here himself. But the theme of India as an investment choice, as the growth engine in APAC and potentially then in the world, has been coming across loud and clear. And on the tech side as well, with the skills and the talent that's emerging in India, that's something that I've taken away.
- [11:18]
Brad Stone
I will say that one thing that I'm coming away from this week is an interest and a curiosity in learning more about a Chinese company called deepseek. A lot of people are talking about it in the tech community here at Davos. It's a former hedge fund, I believe, based in Beijing that has a large language model that in some ways people are saying this is just as powerful as the Western model. Don't really know a lot about it yet. They're very private. They're not here. But it's something that is on my radar as the as Business Week dedication.
- [11:49]
David Merritt
In Davos, right, to be serious, to.
- [11:50]
Francine Lacroix
Get the job done. But I think the fact that the Chinese have a significant less presence than in the past may be telling of things to come. Because if you're kind of in the, you know, in the eye line of Donald Trump, maybe you don't want to be seen too much. You kind of want to stay behind the radar. And some of the most interesting conversations that I've had, you know, in Davos is chief executives that are not American, that are trying to figure out what you do with a Trump presidency. So first you need to try and understand the difference between policy and noise or negotiation tactic. But also you don't want to be targeted. So do you stay below the radar? Do you try and find meeting? You know, do you try and actually get some face time with him? How do you communicate with him? So it's really interesting as people flattery, but you also have to be remembered, unless it's for something bad. It's very complicated, isn't it? Like, you have to study psychology.
- [12:40]
Brad Stone
It is, but I think, you know, I was talking about the optimism. I mean, it's the Trump psychology, which is why everybody's so rosy. They know that this is a transactional president and everyone's got their bouquet of roses and is putting it at his feet right now.
- [12:53]
David Merritt
I mean, you've met, you've interviewed him, Brad. Right? I mean, does that personality come through when you're sitting around him?
- [12:58]
Brad Stone
There is an interesting juxtaposition. You know, we interviewed him Business week, no video cameras in Mar a Lago in August. And it was a great conversation. And then our colleague John Micklethwait interviews on stage, on camera, and it's a much more different, more pugilistic Donald Trump. So it is. It is interesting. When he has an audience, he plays to it. When it's quiet, he's a little bit more solicitous of the media.
- [13:25]
David Merritt
Do you think, across all the interviews here, to say on camera, front scene. And, Brad, when you've been interviewing people on stage, at the house or here on the TV set, the impression I get is that people are just more reticent this year to say anything, really. They don't want to put their heads above the parapet. Is this part of the Trump effect?
- [13:40]
Francine Lacroix
But I think it's because they don't know. I don't think it's because they're trying to be coy or don't want to say anything. I think it's really uncertainty. And we've seen in the markets right it's been quite soaring because it's like, you know, tech stocks will do fine. We're good. There are security issues with China. Stocks are down. So I think we're a little bit in the wait and see situation, especially, you know, for businesses that want stability. We're not really 100% sure what these executive orders mean. I mean, the crypto, again, I don't know where it ends up. If it's about doji and having, you know, memes, we're going to do a doji of Dave Merritt. That's my next project. Or whether it, you know, it'll be more infiltrating with blockchain in the whole of the financial system. I don't know that.
- [14:19]
Brad Stone
I don't know. I know they can't go wrong with flattery. I think they're holding their tongue on crypto and the Trump coin and the Melania coin, I think there's probably nobody wants to say, but, you know, there's a little bit of grifting right now. It's very hard, it's very hard to rationalize. But, you know, nobody wants to be left behind. Trump is framing the technology, the AI race as a national security initiative. And everybody is going to their respective teams right now.
- [14:46]
Francine Lacroix
The other concern is that, you know, there's only one show in town and that's Donald Trump. And if you're a leader, you spend so much time dealing with the Trump administration in terms of how to respond, what he's saying, you know, don't, you know, put your head above the parapet that you may lose sight of what's going on at home. And this is, again, some of the things that I've been hearing in the corridors is that, you know, he's, there's, there's one show, he likes to be the center of tension. He likes talking, he likes being provocative. And that could, you know, take away attention from, from important matters for leaders and chief executive.
- [15:18]
David Merritt
I mean, certainly, you know, the big political interviews we've had here this week, President Zelensky, who spoke to John Micklethwait yesterday, made it very clear that Trump is the key, of course, to any resolution. But also the involvement of American troops in any sort of peace deal, he made that very clear as well. So Trump is the ultimate player in any sort of resolution.
- [15:37]
Francine Lacroix
And Argentina, and Argentina, President Milei up the script to make a deal with Donald Trump.
- [15:42]
Brad Stone
I also just want to add that, you know, these business leaders, they're weather vanes. They point in the direction that the winds are blowing and back in the US Right now. So we've seen the emergence of a sort of very conservative feeling among the American populace. There are not great protests on corporate campuses, in universities, despite the executive orders of the first week. So I think a lot of business leaders have their finger up to the wind and they are playing to their constituencies.
- [16:10]
David Merritt
A remarkable ability to pivot. 180s.
- [16:14]
Brad Stone
Marc Benioff, as staunch a Democrat as you could find, had nary a word of criticism yesterday at the Bloomberg House to say about Donald Trump.
- [16:21]
David Merritt
He looked fairly sanguine about everything, didn't he, Martin?
- [16:24]
Brad Stone
I'm sure his private feelings made different from his public posture.
- [16:27]
Francine Lacroix
Brad. One of the other things that we've been thinking about is because Donald Trump likes a deal, we don't really know what deals he's making with whom. So something that could be confrontational or not geopolitical means that it would be an exchange for something else. A TikTok for me is quite interesting. Or what he's, you know, he walked down in terms of like, is it really dangerous if it's just a bunch of kids looking at crazy videos? Does he need China for something else? Or do we ever really know what he's thinking?
- [16:55]
Brad Stone
It's difficult. He introduced the idea of a TikTok ban. There is bipartisan consensus that TikTok is biased towards the priorities of the Chinese government. So, sure, he's getting something. It may not be from China, maybe for some of his donors who are major investors in TikTok's owner, ByteDance, just.
- [17:10]
Francine Lacroix
On TikTok, what happens, because the Chinese have to agree to whoever they sell it to. Right? So they've said no to a number of people because it's my understanding that if they sell it, they also have to give the algorithm, and that's the last thing the Chinese want.
- [17:22]
Brad Stone
We have reported to Bloomberg they appear to be warming up to the idea that they're going to have to sell the social network, maybe not the algorithm. And then we should probably prepare for Trump to steer it towards his allies like Larry Ellison and Elon Musk.
- [17:34]
Francine Lacroix
I was just going to say Elon Musk. How we had the brother here. I saw Kimball yesterday and again, there was a rumor that he'd show up with Elon Musk. Another rumor that would have been a rumor which has since been.
- [17:45]
Brad Stone
I don't think Elon has great things to say about Davos.
- [17:49]
Francine Lacroix
Well, they had a spat right on, like a couple of years ago. Is it too soon? I feel like the next 12 months are going to be pretty volatile and pretty bumpy. I mean, Brad's already thinking about what we're going to talk about next year. Davos.
- [17:59]
David Merritt
I'm the worst crystal ballgazer there is. And I, you know, think about it sitting here last year we had no idea what was to come. So I'm going to, I'm going to demur on that. Apart from the one, the big serious political geopolitical question that we've had as we have a he's for in the Middle east, clearly something is going to move in Ukraine. So perhaps there's less conflict in the world.
- [18:16]
Brad Stone
Well, I mean my question if the US Is withdrawing as the world's policeman, you know, what other conflict will we see? Power abhors a vacuum. Trump has shown very reluctant to deploy American troops. I have a feeling next year we will be talking about Donald Trump because that is first rule of the Trump presidency. You talk about Trump and there it will be something that we have not yet imagined in terms of global conflict.
- [18:39]
Francine Lacroix
It'll be interesting to see if the Europeans are back because we also didn't have we had one European leader who's going to elections on the 23rd of February because they're just not strong enough at home.
- [18:49]
David Merritt
And if Larry Fink is right, maybe the, you know, the inverse Davos indicator that excess pessimism here means that it's time to buy Europe. Maybe that's the year ahead.
- [18:58]
Francine Lacroix
Brad, thank you so much for joining us.
- [19:00]
Brad Stone
Thank you, Fran.
- [19:05]
Francine Lacroix
Thanks for listening to this episode of in the City from Bloomberg. It was hosted by me, Francine Lacroix with Dave Merritt. It was produced by Summer Saadi and Moses Andam Sound designed by Blake Maples. Special thanks to Brad Stone. Please subscribe, rate and review wherever you listen to podcasts. Cool.
- [19:28]
Hiscox Insurance Representative
How can you free your team from time consuming office tasks? Amazon Business empowers leaders to not only streamline purchasing, but better support their teams. Smart business buying tools enable buyers to find and purchase items fast so they can focus on strategy and growth. It's time to free up your teams and focus on your future. Learn more about the technology insights and Support available at amazonbusiness.com@GSK we believe that.
- [19:56]
GSK Representative
To get ahead of disease, you need to understand its root cause. And that's why we combine our deep understanding of immune science with cutting edge technology. It helps us to create targeted therapies that match the right treatment to the right patient, transforming the lives of millions. By uniting science, technology and talent, we work tirelessly to get ahead of disease together. Visit gsk.com to discover more.
- [20:22]
Verizon Representative
As a contractor, I don't pay for materials I don't use, so why would I pay for stuff I don't need in my mobile plan? That's why the new My Biz Plan from Verizon can in business is so perfect. Now I can choose exactly what I want and I only pay for what.
- [20:35]
I need right now with my Biz plan. Get our best price as low as $25 a line. Visit verizon.combusiness to get started today. New lines only. Price per month with 5 plus lines. Includes auto pay and paper free billing and promotional discount, taxes, fees, economic adjustment charge applicable. Add ons prices and terms apply. Guarantee applies to base monthly rate and stated discounts only. Add on prices. Additional offers in November 17, 2025.