In the City: CMA's Doug Gurr on the Balance Between Risk and Regulation

Summary

Podcast Summary: Leaders with Francine Lacqua

Episode: In the City: CMA's Doug Gurr on the Balance Between Risk and Regulation
Date: July 10, 2025
Host: Francine Lacqua (with co-host Allegra Stratton)
Guest: Doug Gurr, Interim Chair of the Competition & Markets Authority (CMA)

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Overview

In this episode, Francine Lacqua and Allegra Stratton engage Doug Gurr, the recently appointed interim chair of the UK’s Competition & Markets Authority, on the evolution of competition regulation in the UK one year into Labour’s new government. The discussion revolves around the CMA’s renewed focus on economic growth, the challenge of balancing risk and regulation, and how Doug Gurr is transforming the organization to be more responsive to the needs of both consumers and investors. The episode provides valuable insights into what makes regulatory leadership relevant in a rapidly changing market and political landscape.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Doug Gurr’s Background and Leadership Experience

[03:19 – 04:47]

• Doug Gurr’s diverse experience: from being a McKinsey partner to CEO of BlueHeath, board member at Asda Walmart, university teacher, and director of the Natural History Museum.
• Quote:
  “If you're passionate about what you do and you have amazing teams, you can hopefully try and drive things forward.”
  – Doug Gurr [04:28]
• On transferable leadership skills: commercial organizations excel at efficiency, nonprofits are better at managing complexity and multifaceted objectives.

CMA’s Renewed Mandate: Growth as the Imperative

[05:24 – 06:52]

• Gurr’s brief from the government: optimize the environment for business investment without sacrificing competition or consumer protection.
• Quote:
  “If we take growth as the imperative… the only way through that is economic growth. So that has to be the imperative… One of the most important is business investment, and again, that's an area where the UK has struggled for the past few years.”
  – Doug Gurr [05:37]

Transforming the CMA: Operational & Cultural Change

[07:03 – 08:35]

• Gurr on inheriting an organization in flux: focusing on feedback, organizational challenge, and transformation.
• Three pillars:
  1. Self-challenge and transformation: Reviewing all CMA operations (starting with mergers).
  2. Stepping up engagement: Launching a Growth and Investment Council, business breakfasts, outreach.
  3. Keeping up core business: e.g., Digital Markets Act investigations, consumer interventions (baby formula, veterinary sectors), civil engineering market investigation.
• Quote:
  “Just hold up the mirror, listen to the feedback, challenge ourselves to transform the organization, massively step up the engagement and crack on.”
  – Doug Gurr [08:01]

Levers for Stimulating Growth

[08:35 – 09:51]

• Focus on regulatory tools to support innovation and investment.
• Example: “Open banking” as a catalyst for the UK’s fintech sector.
• The importance of making the UK attractive and predictable for investment, with an emphasis on regulatory stability and clarity.

The Balance Between Risk and Regulation

[09:51 – 12:07]

• Philosophical exploration: regulation as risk, and its impact on business.
• Doug introduces the “Four Ps” Framework:
  1. Pace: Make decisions swiftly.
  2. Proportionality: Match intervention to the size and importance of issues.
  3. Predictability: Create a stable, rule-based environment.
  4. Process: Ensure transparency and engagement.
• Example: How quicker investigations benefit business and consumers alike.
• Quote:
  “How do we get that same quality of decision making, but do it faster? Let's get some pace into this. How are we more proportional? How do we actually take a view… Predictability is crucial. And then process… Those are the four Ps.”
  – Doug Gurr [11:18]

Measuring Success at the CMA

[11:54 – 12:41]

• Metrics in focus:
  • Improved business confidence in the UK as an investment destination.
  • Enhanced perceptions of the CMA.
  • Faster, more effective regulatory action.
• Quote:
  “When we start to publish the report… we want to be able to, in really concrete, quantifiable terms, say, that's what we've done, that's why it's moved forward.”
  – Doug Gurr [12:24]

Consumer Protection vs. Growth: False Trade-off?

[12:41 – 14:00]

• Gurr argues robust consumer protection can stimulate, not hinder, growth:
• Example: Crackdown on fake and misleading reviews helps both consumers and the SMEs relying on trustworthy marketplaces.
• Quote:
  “It's good for the end consumer, it's good for the small businesses and I would actually argue it's actually good for the marketplaces. They want to be trustworthy places that people can come.”
  – Doug Gurr [13:26]

The Reputation of UK Regulators & International Comparison

[14:00 – 15:02]

• US investors’ view: “US innovates, China duplicates, and the EU regulates.”
• The UK aims for the “Goldilocks” spot—neither too heavy nor too light-handed.
• Example: CMA’s approach to digital markets—proportional, collaborative, outcome-based, and designed so that solutions established in the UK could influence global standards.
• Quote:
  “If we can craft a solution in the uk, working collaboratively with a regulator that’s able to engage and talk to us, then perhaps we can craft something that we can take back to other jurisdictions.”
  – Doug Gurr [16:29]

Politicization of Regulation & The Value of Predictability

[17:00 – 18:33]

• Gurr emphasizes the importance of “predictability” for global investors—a predictable, technocratic regulatory regime is valued over politically-driven or litigious models.
• The government sets the strategic steer (growth-first), regulators should execute independently.
• Quote:
  “Every single business I talk to all around the world says we'd much prefer strong independent regulation because that's precisely what creates more confidence and the predictability.”
  – Doug Gurr [18:07]

UK Business Sentiment After a Year of Labour

[18:33 – 19:48]

• Gurr avoids government criticism but highlights general business sentiment:
  • Support for reforms (planning, regulatory burden, international trade),
  • Some dissatisfaction with immediate measures,
  • Underpinning concern remains growth.
• Quote:
  “If we have stronger economic growth, everything gets easier.”
  – Doug Gurr [19:40]

How to Get More Growth

[20:04 – 21:44]

• Growth driven by investment—multinationals and start-ups alike.
• UK is attracting sizable international commitments, e.g. Amazon's £40B investment.
• Importance of venture capital and predictable regulatory environments, especially for fintech, biological sciences, and AI.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If you’re passionate about what you do and you have amazing teams, you can hopefully try and drive things forward.”
  — Doug Gurr [04:28]
• “If we take growth as the imperative… it's economic growth. So that has to be the imperative.”
  — Doug Gurr [05:37]
• “Just hold up the mirror, listen to the feedback, challenge ourselves to transform…”
  — Doug Gurr [08:01]
• “Let's get some pace into this. How are we more proportional? Predictability is crucial. And then process.”
  — Doug Gurr [11:18]
• “If we have stronger economic growth, everything gets easier.”
  — Doug Gurr [19:40]
• Lacqua’s light-hearted moment:
  “With a bit of butter, everything’s better. With a little bit of growth, a lot of growth is good.” [19:48]
  (Doug Gurr jokes, “A lot of butter is even better.”) [19:54]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:19–04:47] Doug Gurr’s background & leadership style
• [05:24–06:52] The CMA’s new growth imperative
• [07:03–08:35] How the CMA is transforming internally
• [08:35–09:51] Levers for UK economic growth & regulatory innovation
• [09:51–12:07] The Four Ps: Pace, Proportionality, Predictability, Process
• [12:41–14:00] Consumer protection vs. growth debate
• [14:00–15:02] The Goldilocks approach to regulation
• [17:00–18:33] Political pressure and the importance of regulator independence and predictability
• [18:33–19:48] Current business sentiment toward UK government and regulators
• [20:04–21:44] What drives growth in the UK market

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Conclusion

Doug Gurr and the CMA are embracing a holistic, business-engaged, and outcomes-focused approach to UK regulation. Their aim is to support growth by fostering a stable, innovative regulatory environment that attracts investment and protects consumers without unnecessary friction. The “Four Ps” provide a practical, modern framework for regulatory leadership, and the UK aspires to be a “Goldilocks” jurisdiction—balancing flexibility, engagement, and rigor to position itself between the extremes of regulatory models seen in the US and the EU. This episode offers both practical insight and accessible analogies for understanding the evolving landscape of UK regulation.

Transcript

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[Francine Lacqua]

Welcome to in the City each week we unpack a story that's crucial to the world's financial capitals. I'm Francine Lacqua.

[Allegra Stratton]

And I'm Allegra Stratton.

[Francine Lacqua]

Now Alegre. We've just passed the one year anniversary of Labour's massive election win and remember at the time pre election Labour were talking growth and actually there was a lot of hope on what the UK could become, right?

[Allegra Stratton]

And the then Shadow Chancellor Rachel Reeves was having lots and lots of breakfast meetings with top figures in the City called the smoked Salmon and Scrambled Eggs circuit and she was giving speeches on how if elected, the Labour government would, among other things, loosen regulations to make it easier for businesses to grow and for mergers to happen.

[Francine Lacqua]

But a year in, there's so many questions about whether we have had any meaningful success in that area now, government ministers did actually oust the previous chair of the Competition Markets Authority, the cma, in January for failing to display a good enough plan for growth. And so we thought that we'd check in with the CMA to see what kind of progress they've made so far.

[Doug Gurr]

Welcome to the City of London. The City of the City.

[Allegra Stratton]

The City of London.

[Francine Lacqua]

The next station is Bank. Please mind the gap between the train and the platform.

[Doug Gurr]

The financial heart of the country.

[Chase for Business Representative]

The City.

[Doug Gurr]

The City. Welcome to in the City.

[Allegra Stratton]

Stand clear of the doors, please. So to give us an overview of the regulatory landscape in the UK right now, and also an outlook on UK growth, we're joined by the interim chair of the cma, Doug Gurr. Doug was appointed as interim chair in January. He was previously a partner at McKinsey, a founder and CEO of Internet startup BlueHeath, and he also sat on the board of Asda Walmart for five years. And actually that's just the start of it. There's lots and lots of other things he's done. Doug, thank you so much for joining us. We often speak to individuals who have quite kind of straightforward backgrounds, but yours is not unstraightforward. But you have done a great number of things in your career, including right now. Just let me. For the listeners, let me just rattle through things you have done and then let's get onto what you are doing right now. So you have been chairman of the British Heart Foundation, University maths and computing teacher. A civil servant. I didn't know that bit. Which department?

[Doug Gurr]

I was at the Department for Transport many years ago.

[Allegra Stratton]

Wow. Okay. And now, as well as being the interim chair of the cma, you are also still the director of the Natural History Museum?

[Doug Gurr]

Absolutely, yes.

[Allegra Stratton]

How do you do it all?

[Doug Gurr]

Well, it's like anybody, if you're passionate about what you do and you have amazing teams, you can hopefully try and drive things forward. Love the work we do at the Natural History Museum, but absolutely thrilled to be invited to take on this role at the cma.

[Francine Lacqua]

Is it the same skill sets for all of them to lead organizations, or do you really have to adapt to who you work for?

[Doug Gurr]

Look, I've been very, very fortunate in my career to have the opportunity to work for lots of different organizations. I've worked here, I've worked in China, and, you know, when you really come down to it, people are people. You know, the organizations, the motivations are pretty similar. So, you know, you'll tend to find that different organizations have different characteristics. I think commerc organizations tend to be the best at getting stuff done. But actually when you look at some of the nonprofit or the charity sector, they're much better at thinking through complex environments and multiple objectives. So hopefully if you can bring a little bit of all of those worlds together, so far so good, let's say. But you'll probably tell me later at

[Allegra Stratton]

the Competition and Markets Authority. Just tell us you were given quite an explicit remit by a government that came in and was very clear that it needed to reduce regulation to get economic growth.

[Doug Gurr]

Yeah, I'm really pleased you picked up on that word growth. Because if we take it back to growth, as we all know, it's quite a challenging time right now. The tax burden is very high. We do want to invest in our public services and we absolutely want to deliver prosperity for our citizens. And by far the best and probably the only way through that is economic growth. So that has to be the imperative. If we can deliver growth, then we can improve citizens lives, we can invest in public services, and those are the two things we have to do. So when I got the call to say, could you come in and look at this? In some ways it was a very simple call because if you take growth as the imperative, and personally I'm delighted that the government's focusing on growth, then as you know, many things contribute to that. But one of the most important is business investment. And again, that's an area where the UK has struggled for the past few years. Our investment levels have been bottom of the G7 for quite a long time now. And that's both domestic investment, it's large multinationals, and it's also the venture money. How do we reassure that this is the best place to invest? So in a sense the remit was very simple. If I can go back to my maths days, it's what we used to call a constrained optimization problem. You know, in other words, how do you maximize the environment for business investment, but do it in a way where you don't let go of the importance of a belief in strong competition and a belief in consumer protection. So that was, that was effectively the brief.

[Francine Lacqua]

But Doug, it can have been easy because you get the call and you're replacing someone who was ousted. So I guess internally there are many questions about who are we? How do you change? How do you get over the scandal?

[Allegra Stratton]

Yeah.

[Doug Gurr]

So look, it's always a privilege to be invited to serve and I do think if you come back to that business investment and growth, I do think an organization like the CMA has a really important role to Play. And in a sense, what therefore have we been doing? We've been focusing on three things. I mean, first, we have listened really carefully to that feedback and just challenged ourselves to say how can we actually transform the operation of the cma? So we started with mergers, but by the end of this month, which will be six months in, we will have gone through every aspect of the CMA's operation. So that's thing one, I think thing two, and it slightly goes back to your earlier question about different areas, is really trying to ramp up the level of engagement and that's both massively increasing the level of listening. So we've launched a growth and Investment Council. It's met four times since January. We're going to do business breakfast. So both listening but also doing a little bit about what we're doing today, which is getting out and just setting out the stall and just selling the story about why Britain is the best place and should be the best place to invest. And then finally you just have to get on with the day job. What you can't do is go into a stage of let's slow down. We've launched two investigations under the new Digital Markets Act. We've continued to do interventions that are pro consumer and vets and baby formula. And we've continued to ask ourselves what can we do to support growth. So you'll have seen, for example, we just launched a market investigation into civil engineering. If we really want to invest in infrastructure and get going, then, you know, are the frictions are the things that are slowing down growth. So that's really it. You know, just hold up the mirror, listen to the feedback, challenge ourselves to transform the organization massively, step up the engagement and crack on.

[Allegra Stratton]

I mean, just to pick up on that last interesting example, can you give us a few more Doug around? What do you think will end up being the levers that you can pull in order to stimulate more growth? And I suppose a secondary question is, is any of this going to be quick?

[Doug Gurr]

So I think it can be both. And I think if you look at some of the examples that have worked well, very often they're about how do you actually stimulate innovation, investment growth. So open bank thinking is an obvious example where if you go back to why does the UK have such a vibrant fintech center? A lot of it's just saying, well, let's open it up and let innovation flourish. So there are many, many other examples we're looking at whereby we may be able to improve access to data sets, sometimes public data sets, sometimes private, that can really stimulate those industries. And when you link that back to the focus areas of the industrial strategy, eight big sectors, that's where you can see a lot of the growth coming. So I think there's direct interventions like that. And can it be fast? I absolutely think it can. Because the one thing you can move the needle on surprisingly quickly is back to that question of business investment. Remember, large organizations have lots of opportunities to choose about where they invest. Do they come to the uk, do they go to continental Europe? Do they go somewhere else? We just want to give that confidence and reassurance that you've got a stable regulatory framework, a good level of debate, and then that will move it quite quickly.

[Francine Lacqua]

But, Doug, I mean, there's a philosophical question about regulation, because regulation is also risk. So how much appetite do you have for risk? Kind of goes to the heart of some of the criticism that the CMA has had on being too interventionist. The fact that actually, as a regulator, easier, or you measure success by what you say no to instead of innovate. I have a lot of sympathy, actually, for regulators because it's a difficult balance to get right. How do you view risk and regulation?

[Doug Gurr]

I always bring it back to that North Star. And if you like, what is the North Star? It's about how do we create an environment where you can create the maximum possible business investment, whilst at the same time. And that's your point about risk, making sure you still keep strong competition and you still keep consumer protection. In some ways, I think a legitimate piece of feedback was saying, look, it's not that necessarily the CMA makes bad decisions or decisions anybody disagrees with, but it makes them very slowly. And that partly plays to that risk culture, if you like, if you're concerned, to make sure you've done everything perfectly in a good way. That can take time, but there's a very real cost to that, because every day that goes by costs businesses money, creates uncertainty, delays investment. So that's why I think the team have actually come up with a really powerful framework. They're called the four Ps, which is what we've now, by the end of this month, will have run through every aspect of the operation, which is, how do we get that same quality of decision making, but do it faster? Let's get some pace into this. How are we more proportional? How do we actually take a view on, you know what?

[Allegra Stratton]

So pace. Proportionality.

[Doug Gurr]

Proportionality. Predictability is crucial. And then process. And that's a lot about the engagement. So those are the four P's, And I have to say, I think that's working really well. You may have seen we made announcements about an investigation into house building. I think we've got a good outcome there that's going to involve some conduct commitments together with 100 million pounds to build a thousand affordable houses. I think that's terrific. But most importantly for me, from the organization's point of view, we probably would have got there anyway five years ago, but we got there much quicker and that's what I hope you'll see. And that benefits everybody.

[Francine Lacqua]

How do you measure success in this? Because again, you can have great principles, but then it's the execution that really makes a difference.

[Doug Gurr]

Yeah, I've grown up in many organizations that are pretty passionate about how do you measure things? And, you know, how do you really put energy into this?

[Francine Lacqua]

I love measuring here at the.

[Doug Gurr]

We love measuring, we all love measuring, because we should. And, you know, the test we've sort of set for ourselves. Well, has the businesses confidence in the UK as a place to invest improved? What's happened to their perception of the cma? Have we actually moved these things faster? How does that benchmark globally? These are the kind of metrics and you'll see, you know, we sort of challenged ourselves to say that, look, when we start to publish the report, looking backwards year on, we want to be able to, in really concrete, quantifiable terms, say, that's what we've done, that's why it's moved forward. And by the way, if there's a message to all your business listeners out there, that's why you should come and invest in the uk. We are a great investment destination right now.

[Allegra Stratton]

Fran just asked about one possible trade off, which is with risk. Another is economic growth versus or is it versus prices for people. I mean, the sort of famous example is the number of mobile phone companies in Europe versus America. And there's lots and lots and lots, but the prices are different. So just wondering if you could reflect on that.

[Doug Gurr]

Yeah, no, look, one of the things you'll hear a lot is the narrative of saying, look, are you trying to trade off economic growth versus effectively consumer protection? I mean, personally, I don't see it like that. I think there are some really strong examples whereby strong consumer protection is actually good for growth. So if you take for example, the work we did recently on fake and misleading reviews, now that's a consumer protection point, because consumers, you have to be able to buy with confidence, but if you give them that confidence, they actually spend more. That helps growth. But actually interesting that's also an example of something which is really good for a lot of the small businesses who are users of these marketplaces because, and we spend a lot of time talking to small business. And they said, you know, I really don't want to feel I'm launching my business and some bad actor can put fake reviews, et cetera. So it's good for the end consumer, it's good for the small businesses and I would actually argue it's actually good for the marketplaces. They want to be trustworthy places that people can come. So really if you think about consumers, consumer protection, about giving consumers confidence to spend and invest and do this, that should be driving growth.

[Francine Lacqua]

But it's fair to say that regulators in general just have a bad reputation. And when you speak to a lot of US investors, they always say as a joke, but only half heartedly, it's US Innovates, China duplicates and the EU regulates.

[Doug Gurr]

I've led businesses and I think one of the reasons we're ramping up so much on the engagement is I think it's quite important to be able, if you sit in a regulator, to be able to put yourselves in the shoes of your stakeholders. And that's why I think the most important thing if you want to improve and A, you've got to engage and we are engaging with a lot of US businesses as you can imagine at the moment. But B, I think you do have to come back and challenge yourself to self, imagine what it feels like from the other side.

[Allegra Stratton]

And to build on Fran's question, you've got America potentially deregulating hugely in the foreseeable future. Do you think it's reasonable to see a unique role for the United Kingdom as that kind of Goldilocks in the middle? Not regulated, but not the Wild west either.

[Doug Gurr]

I'm loving the Goldilocks. Yeah, that's right, yeah. Look, I think the short answer is yes, I'll give you a specific example on that. I mean, as Lou's seen under the new digital markets regime, we launched in January an investigation into Google on the questions of search and search advertising. Now at the same time there is pending litigation in the United States from the ftc. There is all sorts of interesting stuff going on in continental Europe. I actually think this is a great example where it's almost, and again, apologies for that 4Ps jargon, but this is almost the 4Ps in practice because I think it's a really well crafted piece of regulation. It's not trying to guess what the future is going to be. It's very proportional. You know, it only applies to organizations that have a global turnover of £25 billion, a UK turnover of a billion. So you can immediately say to the vast majority of organizations, you really don't have to worry about this. But the point of that is it's not trying to sit here and guess how is the future of search or AI going to evolve. It's saying, look, we've identified that you're a significant player and there's a good evidence base for that. We've done it very quickly. We've worked incredibly closely with, in that case, the company to engage. And we're going to sit here and try and say it's not in any sense designation, is not saying there is any evidence of harm here. But these are the issues of the bubble up. Let's work collectively to try and come up with some solutions and then it's crucially, it's outcome based. So let's try something. If it works, brilliant. If it doesn't work and the concerns are still there, we can try something else. A very different approach to either just trying to sit here, do a sort of whack a mole of change, something. And I have to say, I think it's working really well. Great engagement with the business, good process, we're moving at pace and again, look, it's for the company to decide, but if I were in their shoes, it operates that, as you said, Goldilocks, opportunity to say, well, if we can craft a solution in the uk, working collaboratively with a regulator that's able to engage and talk to us, then perhaps we can craft something that we can take back to other jurisdictions which might include the US or Europe. So I think it's a really good model for me.

[Francine Lacqua]

Do you worry that regulation is more and more politicised? So, you know, the Trump administration and we heard this and again, everything can change. There's still negotiations with the eu. They're now saying, before it was regulation on one hand and then you had trade and tariffs on the other. And now you hear from President Trump that he's frustrated because of some regulation on the US tech companies and therefore it'll impact how we do trade. I mean, it's kind of muddling everything, but it must mean more political pressure for you.

[Allegra Stratton]

Yeah.

[Doug Gurr]

So look, at the risk of being boringly P ish predictability. I mean, imagine you sit there in a business, you're making investments that might have a 5 or 10 or 15 or 20 year environment. The last thing you want, uncertainty and do the Rules change or whatever, so predictability really matters. And if you look at the way in which people tend to operate, operate regulatory systems around the world, you sort of have three choices. You can have politicians making the ultimate decisions, you can have the courts making the ultimatum decisions, or you can argue for a regime where you effectively have independent regulators taking, if you like, a more technocratic view. I have to say every single business I talk to all around the world says we'd much prefer strong independent regulation because that's precisely what creates more conflict, confidence and the predictability. And so look, we live in a parliamentary democracy. I actually think things are working very well. It's absolutely right that the government provides a, what's known as a strategic steer. We would like the regulators to really help thinking about growth as a priority. That's the statutory requirement of our government to say what the steer is. But having done that, you get out the way.

[Allegra Stratton]

This week at Bloomberg, our reporters, big team of reporters ran quite a long piece about how a year on businesses quite unhappy with Labour. They feel that Keir Starmer said he'd take business into government with him and that that hasn't happened. You're in a difficult position, but what's your observations of why business is quite so grumpy right now?

[Doug Gurr]

Yeah, look, I think absolutely not for me to comment on government policy or approach, but I can tell you what I hear, which is a lot of support for some really good long term commitments. It's a lot of support for addressing questions about the planning system and can that actually take some frictions out of way? A lot of support for frankly challenging regulators to say how can you reduce the burden and how can you be more patient, proportionate. I think a lot of support for actually reaching out and trying to build some bridges with international trading partners, whether that's India or the us. So I think actually a lot of genuinely really good stuff and perhaps as somebody said to me the other day, a few concerns about some short term stuff that maybe hasn't landed as well. But I think again, if you come back to what's at the heart of some of the things that businesses and frankly consumers are concerned about, I just bring it back to that question of growth. If we have stronger economic growth, everything gets easier.

[Francine Lacqua]

It's a little bit like butter. Everything's butter. With a bit of butter, everything's better. With a little bit of growth, a

[Doug Gurr]

lot of growth is good.

[Francine Lacqua]

A lot of growth is good. I mean a lot of butter is even better.

[Doug Gurr]

A long debate about butter or something

[Allegra Stratton]

like that this is where I've been going wrong.

[Francine Lacqua]

How do you get that growth? I mean, again, for me, it maybe goes back to seed investments, risk taking. There's a number of reforms also with pensions on how much is there a culture of growth and risk taking in companies that can really rival some of the things that we see in Silicon Valley? Or is it just the pool of capital is bigger in the us?

[Doug Gurr]

It is almost the fundamental question. Thank you. How do we get growth? And so come back to this, there are factors, of course, there's access to labor, of course, with access to markets, both domestically and trading markets. That's why it's great that we're engaging with that. But if you come right back to it, one of the most important drivers is that business investment. That's what drives productivity, that's what drives growth. Yeah, absolutely. And that investment is both large multinational organizations choosing the UK as a place to actually do. I was thrilled for it, genuinely pleased to see that, for example, a couple of weeks ago, my old shop, Amazon Invest unit committing 40 billion pounds of investment in the UK in the next three years. We should welcome them. That's good news. I also think it's terrific to see domestic businesses, Deloitte's obviously did their survey, I think last week, saying they now see the UK as their number one investment destination. That's great. But then to your point about how do we really get that venture money, that innovation, that startup capital? We have brilliant examples of startup businesses in the uk. We talked about Fintech earlier on, but there's stuff going on in the biological sciences, there's amazing AI stuff, but it needs investment, it needs capital. And that capital comes when we create that stable regulator environment and we give reassurances that this. I know it's a slightly sort of phrase that's used a lot, but genuinely persuade venture money that this is the best place to start and grow a business.

[Francine Lacqua]

Doug, thank you so much.

[Doug Gurr]

Absolute pleasure.

[Francine Lacqua]

Thanks for listening to this week's in the City from Bloomberg. This episode was hosted by me, Francine Lacqua and Allegra Stratton. It was produced by Summer Saadi, Moses Andam and Tala Ahmadi. Special thanks to Doug Gurr and Umania Trivedi. Please subscribe, rate and review Wherever you listen to podcasts,

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