Ray Dalio on his 'tough love' approach, meditating, debt and the global crisis

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Ray Dalio on his 'Tough Love' Approach, Meditating, Debt and the Global Crisis"

In the City — Bloomberg, Oct 24, 2025
Host: Francine Lacqua (with Allegra Stratton & Dave Merritt)
Guest: Ray Dalio

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Overview

This deep-dive episode, recorded aboard Ray Dalio’s research vessel during the UN Ocean Conference, offers a rare, personal conversation with the legendary hedge fund founder. Francine Lacqua explores Dalio’s life — from his Long Island roots to the creation of Bridgewater, his radical leadership philosophy, reflections on global economics and debt cycles, his devotion to ocean exploration, and his spiritual practice of meditation. Dalio shares candid stories, tough lessons from failure, and why he believes in tough love, radical transparency, and perpetual learning.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Life, Caddying, and First Brush with Markets

• Dalio’s Long Island Upbringing:
  • Grew up in a modest neighborhood; parents bought their home for $19,000 ([04:45]).
• Formative Job as Caddy:
  • Started caddying at 12, exposed to conversations about the stock market.
  • Invested his first savings in stocks, got "hooked" after a lucky break.
  • “I figured if I bought more shares and it went up, I would make more money as my investment criteria, which was, of course, made no sense...the company I bought was about to go broke...then another company acqui[red them] and it tripled in money. And so I said this, making money is easy in the markets. And so I got hooked.” — Ray Dalio ([05:22])

2. Starting Bridgewater and the Pain of Failure

• Journey to Founding Bridgewater (1975):
  • Sparked by leaving a commodities firm after a physical altercation with his boss at a New Year’s party ([07:57]).
• The 1982 Debt Crisis & Humbling Losses:
  • Predicted a debt crisis & market crash; went public with views but was wrong, lost clients’ and his own money ([09:17]).
  • “I was so broke that I had to borrow $4,000 from my dad to take care of my family...most painful experience that I could imagine. And it was really the best experience for me because I really learned humility.” — Ray Dalio ([10:47])

3. Life Philosophies: Radical Transparency and Tough Love

• Birth of His Workplace Principles:
  • Emphasizes ‘radical truthfulness and transparency’ for meaningful work and relationships ([18:25]).
  • “I want radical truthfulness because we have to know it’s true in order to deal with it...transparency, so you can show everything so that they know there’s no spin and they can make their decisions is a very powerful force.” — Ray Dalio ([18:25])
• Navigating the Pain of Honest Feedback:
  • Not everyone is receptive; estimates it works well with about two-thirds of people ([19:21]).
  • “What I call it is tough love. It’s tough love, right? Being tough with somebody and honest with somebody...two way that they could be tough with me and honest with me about those things.” ([20:21])
• Leadership Lessons:
  • Biggest mistake for leaders: lack of humility, not knowing one’s strengths/weaknesses, or being adaptable ([21:32]).
  • Believes in “idea meritocracy” — believability-weighted decision-making, not pure autocracy or democracy ([22:01]).
  • “You have to communicate clearly with people. Are they on the mission with you and are you fair? If it’s too transactional, you're going to have a problem.” — Ray Dalio ([22:54])

4. On Leaving Bridgewater, Family, and Generational Change

• Transitioning Away After 47 Years:
  • Compares it to watching kids grow up; values next generation’s independence ([23:39]).
  • Still deeply engaged with markets and investing, “That’s my game. I’ll do that till I die.” ([24:28])
• Sharing Market Wisdom with Grandchildren:
  • Teaching his 12-year-old grandson about money via simple ventures (selling hot cocoa) ([25:08]).
  • “Economics is pretty simple...there’s more money coming in than it’s going out.” ([25:21])

5. Interpreting Economic Cycles & Global Debt

• Studying History for Economic Patterns:
  • Realized from historical research that “there are things that never happened in our lifetime, but they happen many times in history.” ([14:08])
  • Used this historical lens to anticipate crashes (2008, European debt crisis) ([15:51]).
  • Describes credit like a ‘circulatory system’ — too much debt is like ‘plaque in the arteries’ ([17:30]).
• Current Concerns—Debt, Populism & Political Polarization:
  • Warns that the global debt situation follows predictable, recurring patterns.
  • “It’s not just a belief system. It’s an understanding of the mechanics.” — Ray Dalio ([17:30])
  • Sees value in explaining mechanics, not politics, to voters and policymakers ([27:38]).

6. Ocean Exploration and OceanX

• Motivation for OceanX:
  • Lifelong fascination sparked by Jacques Cousteau ([30:28]).
  • Sees the ocean as 72% of the planet, vastly unexplored and vital for climate and humanity ([31:16]).
  • “The ocean is our biggest thing, right?...it’s totally undiscovered. And it’s very exciting. So not only the usefulness, what it has in terms of our own impact is enormous. And I can have an effect, a beneficial effect.” ([30:28])
• Human Blind Spots About the Ocean:
  • Lack of visceral connection; likens the sea to a ‘sheet’ we can’t see below ([31:53]).
  • Believes deeper connection leads to action for the greater good (“Does it matter beyond me or is it just me?”) ([32:47])

7. Spiritual Practice and Meditation

• Why He Meditates:
  • Practiced Transcendental Meditation since 1969—originally inspired by the Beatles ([33:52]).
  • Sees meditation/prayer as a way to connect with something larger, fostering empathy and perspective ([33:09]).
  • “Whatever brings about that starts to create a connection with everything. You’re part of something.” — Ray Dalio ([33:09])

8. Sharing Knowledge—Books and 'Principles'

• Phases of Life:
  • Sees life as ‘growing up, building, and giving back’ ([34:06]).
  • First wrote down ‘Principles’ on stepping out as CEO—was more a compilation than a traditional book ([34:24]).
  • “It really wasn’t writing a book as much as collecting them and getting them in and organized.” ([34:24])
• On Company Culture:
  • Sending out memos and recordings of struggles, creating a unique ‘radical transparency’ culture ([35:02]).
  • “Two thirds of [employees] couldn’t work anywhere else because they would then have it all behind the scenes.” ([35:21])

9. Closing Reflections: Relevance, Legacy, and Being Forgotten

• Staying Relevant:
  • Doesn’t strive to remain in the spotlight; sees it as futile ([35:56])
  • “I think that we all are going to be totally forgotten, you know, like that, that time. If you’re working to be remembered or to be relevant in the spotlight, I don’t think that’s a good idea.” — Ray Dalio ([35:56])
• The Joy of Learning and Discovering:
  • At heart, Dalio is a learner who enjoys challenges and new frontiers, now channeling that curiosity into ocean exploration and education ([36:17]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “I bought the only company that I ever heard of that was selling for less than $5 a share because I...Figured if I bought more shares and it went up, I would make more money as my investment criteria, which was, of course, made no sense. But...it tripled in money. And so I said, this: making money is easy in the markets. And so I got hooked.”
  — Ray Dalio ([05:22])

• “I was so broke that I had to borrow $4,000 from my dad to take care of my family...most painful experience that I could imagine. And it was really the best experience for me because I really learned humility.”
  — Ray Dalio ([10:47])

• “I want meaningful work and meaningful relationships through radical truthfulness and radical transparency.”
  — Ray Dalio ([18:25])

• “What I call it is tough love. It's tough love, right? Being tough with somebody and honest with somebody. And by the way, two way, that they could be tough with me and honest with me about those things.”
  — Ray Dalio ([20:21])

• “The biggest mistake that leaders do that leads to their downfall? I think it is not knowing the strengths and weaknesses, not having the humility, not being adaptable enough and change capable enough.”
  — Ray Dalio ([21:32])

• “I believe an idea meritocracy works. I had a process of what we call believability-weighted decision making.”
  — Ray Dalio ([22:01])

• “If it’s too transactional, you’re going to have a problem. I want people who will go through the ups and downs with me because we have a greater mission.”
  — Ray Dalio ([22:54])

• “That’s my game. I’ll do that till I die.”
  — Ray Dalio on his market obsession ([24:28])

• “Economics is pretty simple in the sense of there’s more money coming in than it's going out.”
  — Ray Dalio ([25:21])

• “There are things that never happened in our lifetime that they're the first time they come along, but they happen many times in history...So that told me that whenever things are coming along that I had not seen before, I really needed to understand if they happened in history so I could understand the mechanics, which is why then I study history.”
  — Ray Dalio ([14:08])

• “The ocean is our biggest thing, right? It's 72% of the world's surface. And...it's totally undiscovered. And it's very exciting.”
  — Ray Dalio ([30:28])

• “Since 1969, I've been meditating. Transcendental meditation...When there is that process in which there's kind of a repeating of a mantra...it starts to create a connection with everything. You're part of something.”
  — Ray Dalio ([33:09])

• “If you’re working to be remembered or to be relevant in the spotlight, I don’t think that’s a good idea.”
  — Ray Dalio ([35:56])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Early Life, First Investments: [04:39]–[07:39]
• Bridgewater Founding & Failure: [07:42]–[11:18]
• Philosophy of Leadership & Radical Transparency: [13:30]–[24:07]
• Family Dynamics, Leaving Bridgewater & Markets Obsession: [24:07]–[26:21]
• Historic Patterns, Debt Cycles: [14:00], [15:46], [17:17]
• OceanX and Conservation Focus: [30:16]–[33:02]
• Meditation, Life Phases, Passing on Wisdom: [33:09]–[35:44]
• On Legacy & Personal Evolution: [35:44]–[36:17]

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Conclusion

This episode presents Ray Dalio in full scope: the driven market player, candid leader, deeply reflective philosopher, ocean advocate, and family man. His message centers on humility, rigorous honesty, openness to new information, and the joy of lifelong learning. The chat is peppered with personal anecdotes, actionable wisdom for leaders, and a broader call to look beyond self-interest—for the sake of humanity and the planet.

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Transcript

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[Ray Dalio]

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[Ray Dalio]

Okay.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

And then I'm going to be here. It looks so beautiful.

[Narrator/Producer]

Back in the spring, I boarded a massive ship designed by Canadian filmmaker James Cameron and owned by Ray Dalio, the man behind one of the world's biggest hedge funds.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

They were saying that because it's James Cameron, right? That put it together. James Cameron.

[Ray Dalio]

Oh, well, James Cameron had some decorating.

[Narrator/Producer]

Yeah. We were on his research vessel, the Ocean Explorer. It was docked in the port of Nice, France, where the United Nations Ocean Conference was really in full swing. It's an event that brings together world leaders, NGOs, big business and stakeholders to try and raise awareness, but also address the urgent issues faced by the world's waters.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

For us, it's great because it's tinted and so it looks much better than if it wasn't tinted.

[Ray Dalio]

Oh, okay.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

So it makes our life so much easier.

[Narrator/Producer]

I can't remember when I first met Ray, but he used to feature on my panels at the World Economic Forum. And what struck me was that he always wanted to call a week before the panel. We'd speak an hour on the phone, and he wanted to make sure that his vision was clearly understood. And he just wanted to be prepared, which is quite rare at that level.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

It's like, how often are you on the boat, Ray?

[Ray Dalio]

Well, let's say I'm probably on the boat six times a year, but I spend maybe a couple of weeks, and.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

It'S all over the place, right? All over the world.

[Ray Dalio]

All over the place.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

So is President Lula coming?

[Ray Dalio]

He is supposed to come with President Racone, but these things come and go.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

They're held up, and I know what it's like.

[Narrator/Producer]

So this conversation was special for me because we got a lot of time with him. We started with his childhood, and he told stories that I'd never heard before, and he was reflecting a little bit about his life and what it meant to him and also different stages of life. Recently, Dalio co founded the nonprofit oceanx with his son Mark to travel and document the world's oceans. So I sat down with him to talk about this new chapter of his life, how he built Bridgewater and what he sees in a leader in 2025.

[Commercial Announcer]

Francine.

[Narrator/Producer]

I'm Francine Lacroix, and this is Leaders, the series that delves into what drives the world's most influential minds. This week, we talk leadership, but also the world's addiction to debt with Ray Dalio. Right.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

Talk to me a little bit about your childhood. Where did you grow up? What was your neighborhood like?

[Ray Dalio]

I grew up on Long Island. My neighborhood was a bunch of houses next to each other, pretty small houses. You know, dollar was went further then, but when my parents got it, it was $19,000. So it was a not a big place.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

And do you remember your first job?

[Ray Dalio]

Yeah. Well, my first job was a paper route, and then I would shovel snow on driveways and. But then my real job when I was 12, is I got into caddying, and that changed my life, had a big impact.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

And why did it change your life?

[Ray Dalio]

Because the people I was catting for at the time, in the 60s, were always talking about the stock market. So I took my caddying money and I put it into the stock market, and I got hooked. Basically what happened was I bought the only company that I ever heard of that was selling for less than $5 a share because I Figured if I bought more shares and it went up, I would make more money as my investment criteria, which was, of course, made no sense. But the company I bought was about to go broke, so it was cheap. And then another company acqu. And it tripled in money. And so I said this. Making money is easy in the markets. And so I got hooked.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

This is at what, 12?

[Ray Dalio]

12.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

And then did you decide at 12 years old to get into financial services?

[Ray Dalio]

It was just like a game. I loved playing the game, you know, but it was also a money game. A good game is a money game. And stocks went up then, and you can be lucky and think you were smart.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

You also understood the power of networking or meeting people to understand the way the world worked.

[Ray Dalio]

Well, there was. It was wonderful because the people I'd caddy with, I'd talk about stocks, and they would talk about stocks. I didn't understand networking, but I did understand that that was helpful. And I remember ordering all the annual reports from the Fortune 500. Fortune 500 had this pullout that you can pick which annual report. So I checked them all, and that was the beginning of my investment lib.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

Okay, so what happens after that? You finish school?

[Ray Dalio]

I finished high school. And then I always was involved with markets. And 1966, by the way, was the first time the yield curve inverted. And it was the peak, the real dollar peak of the stock market until 1984. And I didn't understand that, but that was the big bear market. Wow. And that taught me about what do you do when stocks go down as well as up? And then I started to trade commodities. And I traded commodities because they had low margin requirements. So, yeah, you can make more money if you were right. And I figured, why am I doing this if I'm not going to be right?

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

So when did you decide to found Bridgewater?

[Ray Dalio]

1975. 1973. I graduated from Harvard Business School and I was in commodities. And the company that I was with, they always changed the names. And then I got in a fight with my boss and.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

What physical fight?

[Ray Dalio]

Yeah, we. Well, I. I was rowdy then, you know, and so at a New Year's Eve company party, we got pretty drunk and we pushed each other around, and boom, I decked in. And. Yeah, then. Anyway, so that's how I started Bridgewater, because I had clients who were clients from my work there, and they wanted to hire me to give them advice. And that's how I started Bridgewater. And the Bridgewater was also related to commodities because it was a name of a Company that I formed when my classmates went to different countries. And then we would sell commodities and sell Bridgewater. That's how it started.

[Narrator/Producer]

He founded Bridgewater Associates, a hedge fund that consistently ranks amongst the largest in the world. He ran the firm for 47 years, and it was only this year that he sold his remaining stock and left the board. Bridgewater managed $92 billion as of 2024.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

Did you always want to be the boss?

[Ray Dalio]

I don't think I knew enough about it to say that I wanted to be the boss. I just was not conventional. I wanted to be my own person.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

So when you start Bridgewater, it wasn't plain sailing. It was a bit of up and down. And at some point it almost went under.

[Ray Dalio]

Yes. Which was one of the best experiences of my life. It changed me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I would advise companies on hedging, and then I would trade my own account for commodities and so on. And this was in the 70s, and the 70s was a wild period. You know, the market's wild. So in 1979, Paul Volcker gets appointed and tightens monetary policy. And I calculated that American banks had lent much more money to foreign countries, that those countries were going to be able to pay back, and that we're going to have big debt crisis. And this was very controversial, this view. And then because of that type money, in 1982, the stock market crashes and a series of countries defaulted on their debts. And then I was brought into a lot of attention, Wall Street Week. And then I testified to Congress. It's a great pleasure and a great honor to be able to appear before you an examination with what is going wrong with our economy. The economy is now flat. And I couldn't have been more wrong. That was the exact bottom in the stock market. And I didn't really understand enough the impact of easing and so on. And so I couldn't have been more wrong. So I lost money for me. I lost money for clients. I was so broke that I had to borrow $4,000 from my dad to take care of my family and so on. So it was most painful experience that I could imagine. And it was really the best experience for me because I really learned humility. You know, I started thinking myself, how do I know I'm right foreign?

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[Narrator/Producer]

Hitting rock bottom was a turning point for Ray Dalio. But failure and self doubt gave birth to two key philosophies. 1. Open mindedness and the power of diversification. Now he wanted to find the smartest people he could and for his team to run the way he wanted. Everything had to be out in the open. He encouraged his employees to give sometimes brutal, honest, open, transparent feedback of each other. And with those new lessons, Ray says, he began to see the world more clearly.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

How did it change the way that you saw, you know, monetary policy and the world and countries interacting with each other?

[Ray Dalio]

It was so enlightening. See, the thing that I learned is that there are things that never happened in our lifetime that they're the first time they come along, but they happen many times in history. In 71, 1971 I was clerking on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange. This was between college and going to graduate School and 1971. Richard Nixon on Sunday night, August 15, tells the world that we're not going to give you the gold. You know, the promise that we make that you can convert it from your money, from your paper money into gold. Well, we're not going to honor that. I have directed Secretary Connally to suspend temporarily the convertibility of the dollar into gold or other reserve assets, except in amounts and conditions determined to be in the interest of monetary stability and in the best interest of the United States. And when I went on the floor of the stock exchange in 1971, clerking, I thought the stock market would go up a lot, and it went down a lot. And I was surprised. And I researched history, and I found the exact same thing happened in March 1933 with Roosevelt getting on the radio and doing the exact same thing so that they could print money and escape that. So that told me that whenever things are coming along that I had not seen before, I really needed to understand if they happened in history so I could understand the mechanics, which is why then I study history.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

But, Raisa, you basically look back at 500 years to give you a template of what we're living through.

[Ray Dalio]

Well, that's. Yeah, broadly, I understood the Great Depression. I understood the 30s. And because I understood the 30s, for my research, I was able to anticipate the 2008 financial crisis and the European debt crisis from 2010 to 2015. I wouldn't have if I didn't study that period. So now what was happening in 2020 and 21 is this huge creation of debt and money, and then also great conflict internally, political and so on. And so I figured I needed to study the rises and declines of reserve currencies, and I needed to study the rise and declines of empires. And that's when I did the study that became the book that I put out, which is Principles for Dealing with the Changing World Order.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

But, Ray, I find it amazing because actually, the financial system has changed so much. There's so much more of it. So you think that basically it's patterns, that human behavior is always human behavior.

[Ray Dalio]

But there's also a dynamic about debt. There's a very simple dynamic about debt. When debt and debt service rise relative to your income, then the debt service and the interest rate squeezes out other spending, which is like what's happening now with the government, and it squeezes out other spending. It's happened throughout history repeatedly, but it Only happens, like, once a lifetime.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

So. Right. You believe that human nature, no matter at which point in history, almost repeats itself. Right. So it could be civil unrest. Well, talk about populism. That there are patterns that you can see over the last, like, 2,000 years.

[Ray Dalio]

Yes, but that's not just a belief. It's an understanding of the cause, effect, relationships, the mechanics. Let's say the debt situation. I view that the credit system is like a circulatory system. It brings nutrients, it brings buying power to all the different parts of the economy. And it's very healthy. If those are used to produce income, that pays for the debt. But if it doesn't. And what happens is the debt rises relative to the income, and the debt service rises. It's like plaque in the arteries that then begins to squeeze out the spending. And then if it becomes a bad investment because it gives a bad real return, then there will be selling of that. It is following that pattern. So it's not just a belief system. It's an understanding of the mechanics.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

You saw Bridgewater, you want radical transparency, Right? Right. Talk to us about your principles.

[Ray Dalio]

My principles, in a nutshell, is that I want meaningful work and meaningful relationships through radical truthfulness and radical transparency. Okay, so meaningful work, me and the people, I want them to be on a mission together that we feel, we're excited and we're on that mission. And then meaningful relationships, you spend all the time with those people and so on. If you have a meaningful relationship, they're reinforcing. It's fant. And I want radical truthfulness because we have to know it's true in order to deal with it. We can't have politics. And so to be able to be totally truthful with each other is foundational. And then transparency, so you can show everything so that they know there's no spin and they can make their decisions is a very powerful force.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

But radical transparency or radical truthfulness can also hurt. Have you had any regrets where you were too transparent or too truthful with people close to you?

[Ray Dalio]

It can always be a challenge. Yes. It depends on the person. Like, I have to kind of explain and deal with it in a certain way. And it depends on the person. What I basically ask them is, can I tell you what I think? You know, almost asking of permission, if we can be truthful with each other, we can work things out and so on, but still, there's a large percentage of the population, even when you do that, who finds that very difficult. And so I've always had a struggle about how to get that right. What I found is that with time and the right explanation and people being able to learn to trust, I can get that maybe with 2/3 of the population or something. And then there's a third who it just doesn't work with. And then I'm faced with the choice are we going to operate that way or not. So I think the important thing is to try to let them know that it's part of personal evolution to find out together what are the strengths and the weaknesses. But it's a challenge.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

Did you ever think you went too far, Bridgewater, with the truth?

[Ray Dalio]

I always. Not in a general way, but in always trying to get it right. It's almost like touching a nerve. What I call it is tough love. It's tough love, right? That bad Being tough with somebody and honest with somebody. And by the way, two way that they could be tough with me and honest with me about those things.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

But this is the concern with leadership, right? You also want that person to be confident because as soon as you lose that confidence, then you no longer have a player that's any good.

[Ray Dalio]

Yes, but you see the confidence I learned to get was by knowing my weaknesses. To gain the open mindedness like what I've watched in terms of people's evolutions, I've hired the smartest people and they are too much attached for their knowing. And I watch them, they reach a ceiling, kind of. So when they can break through that and they can gain an open mindedness, open mindedness at the same time as you are still being able to form your own opinions but to take in and they move above that, then I find that they're fantastic learning. But you have to break through that barrier.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

What do you think is the biggest mistake that leaders do that leads to their downfall?

[Ray Dalio]

I think it is not knowing the strengths and weaknesses, not having the humility, not being adaptable enough and change capable enough.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

Some people struggle to lead, right? They want to lead by consensus.

[Ray Dalio]

That's very true. There's a balance between autocratic leadership and democratic leadership. I don't believe either of those work. Okay. The autocratic leader is the person who believes that they have all the answers and just follow my instructions. And I don't believe that works because they don't know enough and also they're not having the people with them. I don't think democratic leadership works like you take a survey or something. And so I believe an idea meritocracy works. I had a process of what we call belief believability, weighted decision making. For a variety of reasons. We collected a lot of data on people and that they each rated each other and so on. And we would get a good sense that in this area, in that area, that person's particularly strong and less so. And then we would try to then have what I would call believability, weighted decision making. You don't have to do it in a systemized way, the way that I'm describing it, but like any of the decision making, like if you're going to pick your doctors, you would start to say, okay, who are the believable party? Triangulation of believable parties. And you have that. I think that that's, that's the best way.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

How did you think about pay? Was it important?

[Ray Dalio]

I think about pay as being share in the mission. We're on a mission and if we're successful, then we should share that. If we're not successful, we'll go through the pain. Can we go through the pain together? In order to get to be successful, everybody has to be on the far side affair. But you have to communicate clearly with people. Are they on the mission with you and are you fair? If it's too transactional, you're going to have a problem. Okay. I want people who will go through the ups and downs with me because we have a greater mission. Because after all, if everybody can have the basics that they can take care of their family, they can do, you know, all that, and then be on a mission to make something great happen. That's a great way to be.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

Was it tough leaving Bridgewater?

[Ray Dalio]

No, it was a change, a big change. But it was like watching my kids grow up. Okay, this will be the, the 50th year of Bridgewater. For 47 years, I was responsible for Bridgewater. To watch that next generation, you know, that you want them to be on their own. I want Bridgewater to be on their own. I want the next generation. I know that I'm going to disagree with some things just like they disagree with me, but that's the way it is. That's the way that natural evolution is. So it's wonderful.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

I know, but when your kids grow up, you still miss them a little bit, don't you?

[Ray Dalio]

No, I don't have to miss them. We could still see and hug each other and we could still have conversations about how the world works or any of that. Right? But the decisions are theirs and that's how it should be.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

So, Ray, talk to me about this phase in life. What do you enjoy the most?

[Ray Dalio]

Well, I'm still addicted to the markets.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

You look at them daily?

[Ray Dalio]

Oh, yeah, all the time. Right. I'm as immersive all of the markets. I'm a global macro investor in all liquid markets in the world. And then I've also gotten into venture and private equity and all of these things. That's my game. I'll do that till I die. But in terms of what I like the most, I love the transitioning. And I love the transitioning also of my family, like grandkids. Grandkids are absolutely fantastic. I love being in this with my wife and my children and my grandchildren, that kind of transition. So those are the things I like.

[Narrator/Producer]

The most on the markets.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

Do you trade? I mean, do you trade? Is it your own money? Like, how old are the grandkids? Do they want to know about financial matters?

[Ray Dalio]

This is now what we're starting to play. My oldest just turned 12. Right. And so we talk about markets in a certain way. You know, so I'm trying to get him hooked.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

Okay.

[Ray Dalio]

And he's liking it.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

He's liking it?

[Ray Dalio]

Yeah. He's getting the concept. Like, basically economics is pretty simple in the sense of there's more money coming in than it's going out. So he and his younger brother have found out that if they go to the park in the winter and they buy a certain amount of cocoa and they sell hot cocoa, that they can make quite a bit of money. And then when he takes that money and then he thinks, okay, should I save it or should I spend it? So now he's got a choice, but he has buying power and then also saving it. Then if he saves it, then the question is, what does he do with it? Okay, that's investing. So that's what we do.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

Right. I mean, I've interviewed you for many years and actually what always surprised me is that it's always simple concepts. People over complicate the way the economy works, the way the markets work. And you've always boiled it down to simple concepts that then becomes more complicated with things attached. But it's always a basic idea.

[Ray Dalio]

Yeah. I mean, you can lose sight of the fundamentals by getting into this complexity. You know, I forgot who said it, but they said anybody can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple. Most things are simple. Then you can get into the details.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

You've never frayed into politics.

[Commercial Announcer]

Why not?

[Ray Dalio]

I have the things I'm doing, my games, the investing and so on, it's just not my thing.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

But if you look at the complicated politics, the polarization the anti globalization kind of cloud that's touching the world. Do you worry about it?

[Ray Dalio]

Of course. My book before last was Principles for Dealing with the Changing World Order and it painted a picture of what's happening over and over again because people don't see it and it's happening now. Okay. You have to put it in context. And then also the latest book, which is How Countries Go Broke the Big Cycle to show the mechanics of that. So I think my contribution can be in terms of not making people believe or follow, but making them understand the mechanics of the cause, effect relationships that repeat over a period of time. So that's what I'm getting value out of it. Other people telling me that they're getting value out of it.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

And is that what people and voters should focus on instead of the politics?

[Ray Dalio]

Yeah, because they're. Now I go down to Washington and there's Democrats and there's Republicans and I'm able to show them the mechanics. Okay. And if they can understand the mechanics, it's their responsibility for dealing with that. And I also tried to paint a path that if I was in it, I would operate this way. Not a political path, but a mechanical path. Foreign.

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[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

So it's incredible that in 2025 we just haven't spent enough money to understand the ocean, right? In everything that we're trying to do in, in the green transition, why was the ocean so unloved for such a.

[Ray Dalio]

Long time during this roughly 60 years of investing? You know, I started at 12 in a sense, and I'm 75. So simultaneously, way back when, Jacques Cousteau had an effect on me. I watched him scuba dive and I learned how to scuba dive. And then I would take my sons and we would scuba dive. I'm not a yacht guy, but I am this ocean explorer. And then I realized that if I created a ship that scientists would use, then that would be great for the science and the discovery and that I could see it and they would have the benefit and I could even tag along. So I started to do that with the prior ship and then this ship. And I'm finding out that I'm able to have an impact. The ocean is our biggest thing, right? It's 72% of the world's surface. And the highest point on Earth on land, which is Everest, is 11,000 meters. Same going down for the Marianas Trench. And it's totally undiscovered. And it's very exciting. So not only the usefulness, what it has in terms of our own impact is enormous. And I can have an effect, a beneficial effect.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

What do you think people misunderstand or know the least? I know we talk a lot about, you know, the ocean becoming more acid, and that's actually terrible for the environment. And yet we don't talk about it like, you know, well, there's so much.

[Ray Dalio]

And I think, I think part of it is intellectual and part of it is visceral. You know, our subliminal is making the decisions, our subconscious mind is making it. And what we're attached to, it's like there's a sheet and the ocean surface and you can't see below it. And if almost that was like glass and you could see below it and you would see it, then I think there'd be a whole different reaction to it. Right. So I think that people have to both understand it, love it, and appreciate it that way, and then also understand the implications of it. But there are many things in life. There's a great humanity question. Does it matter beyond me or is it just me? This, I think, is the biggest thing. The biggest thing are how we are with each other. And when you get into just looking at yourself in a somewhat selfish way, then that can hurt the environment in all different ways. It's why people go to wars. It's why all sort of bad things happen. So if you can get that emotional and that connection and realize that people are all part of this greater ecosystem and love that kind of thing, then it produces. Produces results.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

You're right. It's humanity. It's. How do you stop looking at yourself and do something for the greater good? Do you teach that?

[Commercial Announcer]

Is it.

[Ray Dalio]

You feel it? It's a spirituality.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

What if people don't feel it?

[Ray Dalio]

What happened to me, I think played an important role in helping. That was meditation. Since 1969, I've been meditating. Transcendental meditation. But different people do it different way. Prayer is a way, and so on. But when there is that process in which there's kind of a repeating of a mantra and so on and so forth, it's sort of whatever brings about that starts to create a connection with everything. You're part of something. I think you can teach it intellectually to some extent, because it's certainly true. But at the same time, it has to be that you really feel it.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

Why did you start meditating?

[Ray Dalio]

Well, I started because the Beatles did it. And when the Beatles did it and they came back and they said it was cool, I figured I'd try it. Okay, Right. And I tried it, and then I would see the effect of it.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

So you see life in, like, three phases. The growing up, the building, and then the giving back. So the giving back is what? Like the mentoring. But also that's why you started writing books?

[Ray Dalio]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

And, like, with animations, to try to get people to understand the economy and the way the world works.

[Ray Dalio]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

When did you have that idea?

[Ray Dalio]

When I was stepping out as CEO, I had written all these principles because, I mean, literally I had hundreds of principles there, and they were kind of organized. And I figured it was an appropriate Time to pass along the principles. It really wasn't writing a book as much as collecting them and getting them in and organized. And then that sold like five and a half million copies in 36 languages in 150 countries or something like that. And people said that that made a big difference in their lives. And then I just kept doing it.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

So the notes you would send to employees, actually the principal notes would.

[Ray Dalio]

All the time. And I would also send tapes of the struggles that each was having, not only that I was having, but that others were having. That created a culture. Every organization needs a culture. So what is the culture going to be like?

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

Employees like that. Did they like the feedback or the principles or the.

[Ray Dalio]

At first, a typical employee finds it very shocking through time, somewhere in the vicinity of. Two thirds of them couldn't work anywhere else because they would then have it all behind the scenes. And then there's gossip and they didn't know what really is going on because they wouldn't get radical truthfulness and so on. But some people didn't like it.

[Interviewer (possibly Francine Lacroix)]

You stayed relevant in one way or another. Other leaders maybe either don't know how or don't want to stay relevant. Like, it's tough, you know, when people stop recognizing you after a life in the spotlight.

[Ray Dalio]

I think that, that. No, no, no. I think that we all are going to be totally forgotten, you know, like that, that time. If you're working to be remembered or to be relevant in the spotlight, I don't think that's a good idea.

[Narrator/Producer]

This conversation with Ray, I'd never spoken to him for such a long time, and it really gave us a bit of more of a personal view on his life philosophy, on, you know, the fact that he analyzes the economy and markets in a very methodical way, and he does the same for his own life. There's something that we had touched on in previous interviews but never really got to the bottom of, is why he's spending so much money except exploring the oceans after the career he's had. And he seemed almost shocked that we just didn't know about the oceans, that no one's really spent a lot of money understanding what it means for the planet and climate change and that he wants to dedicate his life work to that. I thought I understood after an hour of interview with Ray Dalio that he's a learner. He just enjoys learning. He enjoys discussing, discovering new things. He quite enjoys being challenged. And so it's interesting after the career he's led in finance and markets, and he talks a lot about debt that he just wants to also focus on the ocean and again to try and understand a little bit more about the planet we're living in. Thanks for listening to my leaders interview with Ray Dalio. You can catch the full episode and see the Ocean X designed in part by James Cameron on our originals [e-mail] or YouTube. And if you enjoyed the episode, share it with friends. We'll have more leaders interviews very soon.

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