Episode 4: What They Saw

Summary

In the Dark: Episode 4 - "What They Saw"

Released August 13, 2024 by The New Yorker

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Introduction

"In the Dark," an award-winning investigative journalism podcast hosted by Madeleine Barron, delves deep into complex and haunting narratives. In Episode 4, titled "What They Saw," Barron explores the tragic events of November 19, 2005, in Haditha, Iraq, where U.S. Marines killed 24 civilians. This episode not only recounts the events but also examines the subsequent military investigation and the enduring impact on the survivors seeking justice.

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Background: The Haditha Massacre

The episode opens with a chilling account from Marine Corps veteran Greg Watt, who recounts the morning of November 19, 2005:

Greg Watt (00:24): "In the morning of the 19th of November, 2005, American soldiers had executed three families. And they come back. Yeah, there was about 24 bodies in the back of the vehicles. And I'm like, holy fuck, man."

Barron sets the stage by contrasting initial perceptions with the harrowing reality faced by the civilians. She emphasizes the nature of the killings—predominantly gunshots to the head or chest.

Madeline Barron (00:39): "None of this was near as bad as it seemed. I'm talking about what actually happened to the civilians. What he noticed was gunshots. Most of them. A gunshot in the head or in the chest."

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The Six Marines Involved

Barron introduces the six Marines implicated in the shootings, providing personal backgrounds to humanize each individual:

1. Sergeant Frank Woodrich (00:56):

   • From Connecticut.
   • Former honor roll student and theater enthusiast.
   • Joined the Marines at 17 for prestige.
   • Described as a good, level-headed, and reserved squad leader.

   Namak Khoshnau (02:15): "Like, he was quiet, but a good dude."

2. Corporal Hector Salinas (02:15):

   • Woodrich's right-hand man.
   • Experienced and unyielding.

3. Private First Class Umberto Mendoza (02:38):

   • One of the most junior members.
   • Quiet and compliant.

   Namak Khoshnau (02:43): "Yeah, never gave us a hard time. He did what I was told."

4. Corporal Sonic Delacruz (02:47):

   • Third deployment to Iraq.
   • Passionate about the Marine Corps, intensely committed.

5. Lance Corporal Justin Sherritt (03:20):

   • Veteran of the Battle of Fallujah.
   • Known for his playful nature and love for pop-punk music.

6. Lance Corporal Steven Tatum (04:04):

   • Tall and lanky from Oklahoma.
   • Another Fallujah veteran.
   • Surprisingly, few remembered him, despite his significant role in the killings.

Barron highlights the stark differences among the Marines, illustrating how their personalities and backgrounds converged on that tragic day.

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The Day of the Massacre and Initial Aftermath

On November 19, 2005, the Marines responded to an IED explosion that killed one of their own, Lance Corporal Miguel Terrazas. The squad then engaged civilians, deeming them as enemy combatants. The killings ostensibly aimed to retaliate against an ambush, but the nature and manner raised substantial ethical and legal questions.

Barron recounts the Marines' return to base, where they were met with somber reflections rather than scrutiny. Captain Lucas McConnell reassured the squad, emphasizing their righteousness, while significant details about the victims were overlooked.

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The Investigation: Colonel Gregory Watt's Role

Three months post-massacre, Colonel Gregory Watt arrived in Haditha to lead the military's first investigation, prompted by disturbing video evidence captured by Khalid Salman Rasif. Watt's attempts to engage with the Marines were met with resistance and disinterest:

Greg Watt (09:07): "I'm not a fan of the New Yorker or investigative journalism, so I'm probably really not interested in your project."

Barron details her challenging journey to secure an interview with Watt, ultimately receiving a lukewarm and dismissive response. Watt conveyed skepticism about the value of investigative journalism in addressing the atrocity:

Greg Watt (10:40): "This is pretty hurtful in the first place. Lots of people's careers were destroyed as a result of this."

Watt's stance suggested a resignation to the status quo, minimizing the significance of the massacre's enduring impact on survivors.

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Marine Statements vs. Survivor Testimonies

Watt's investigation primarily relied on the Marines' accounts, which portrayed the events as a chaotic and justified response to enemy combatants. These statements lacked detail and consistency, offering little insight into the targeting of non-combatants.

Barron reveals that Watt recommended further criminal investigations and additional training for the Marines but largely accepted their narratives without exhaustive scrutiny.

In contrast, survivor testimonies present a starkly different picture. Abdul Rahman Walid and Safa Yunus, two survivors who were children during the massacre, provide harrowing accounts that contradict the Marines' version of events.

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Attempting to Interview Survivors: The Journey with Namak Khoshnau

Understanding the importance of survivor perspectives, Barron collaborates with Namak Khoshnau, a BBC documentary filmmaker with personal ties to Kurdish experiences in Iraq. Their mission: to uncover and narrate the true stories of those who witnessed the atrocities.

The journey to Haditha was fraught with danger and logistical challenges:

Namak Khoshnau (28:00): "We have just arrived in Baghdad airport. It's quarter to nine local time."

Navigating through war-torn regions, they faced numerous checkpoints and security threats, culminating in their eventual arrival in Haditha after an arduous eight-hour drive.

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Survivor Accounts: Abdul Rahman and Safa

Abdul Rahman Walid and Safa Yunus emerge as central figures in the quest for truth and justice. Their testimonies reveal the brutal reality of the massacre:

Abdul Rahman Walid (Timestamp References: 35:54 - 43:44)

• Background:

  • At six years old during the massacre, Abdul Rahman lost his entire immediate family, including parents and siblings.
  • Now 25, he studies computer engineering in college.
  • Raised by uncles, he harbors minimal memories of his parents.

• Testimony:

  • Describes the IED explosion that killed Lance Corporal Terrazas.

  • Recounts the Marines' aggressive entrance into his house, targeting civilians without discernible combatant activity.

    Abdul Rahman (39:37): "He said. I was crying."

  • Details the gruesome deaths of his family members, including his father, grandmother, and siblings.

  • Recalls the relentless gunfire and the use of a grenade by Marines, leading to unending fear and loss.

    Abdul Rahman (43:40): "Like I didn't feel it at that time. She was really hot."

Safa Yunus (Timestamp References: 34:40 - 48:36)

• Background:

  • Eleven years old during the massacre, Safa lost her entire family—parents, siblings, and aunt.
  • Now 30, she has built a life post-tragedy, including marriage and a new family.

• Testimony:

  • Describes the IED explosion and the immediate aftermath, where Marines entered her home wielding guns and grenades.

  • Recounts the chaos, the futile attempt to escape, and the merciless killing of her family members.

  • Highlights the psychological trauma and the urgent need for justice.

    Safa (36:33): "From PRX."

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Discrepancies and Unanswered Questions

The survivors' accounts starkly contrast with the Marines' statements to Colonel Watt, raising serious questions about accountability and truth within military investigations. The lack of consistent and thorough examination by Watt suggests a systemic failure to address war crimes adequately.

Barron emphasizes the importance of these testimonies in challenging the official narratives and advocating for justice for the victims.

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Conclusion: The Ongoing Quest for Truth

Episode 4 of "In the Dark" underscores the complexities of war, the fragility of memory, and the enduring quest for justice. Through meticulous investigation and personal narratives, Barron brings to light the forgotten stories of Haditha, amplifying the voices of survivors who continue to seek answers and accountability.

Madeline Barron (43:44): "She touched the towel, tried to wrap it around her brother's wounds. She told him, be quiet. They'll come back and kill us."

The episode serves as a poignant reminder of the human cost of conflict and the imperative for transparent and honest journalism in unveiling truths long buried by official accounts.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Greg Watt (00:24): "In the morning of the 19th of November, 2005, American soldiers had executed three families. And they come back. Yeah, there was about 24 bodies in the back of the vehicles. And I'm like, holy fuck, man."

• Namak Khoshnau (02:15): "Like, he was quiet, but a good dude."

• Greg Watt (10:40): "This is pretty hurtful in the first place. Lots of people's careers were destroyed as a result of this."

• Abdul Rahman Walid (35:54): "She said like a normal life is full of happiness, full of love."

• Safa Yunus (36:33): "From PRX."

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Final Thoughts

"In the Dark: What They Saw" is a compelling episode that meticulously reconstructs the events of the Haditha massacre while highlighting the deep-seated issues within military investigations and the profound impact on survivors. Through dedicated storytelling and investigative prowess, Madeleine Barron ensures that these critical narratives are neither forgotten nor silenced.

For those seeking a deeper understanding of this tragic event and the ongoing struggle for justice, this episode serves as an essential listen.

Transcript

[Madeline Barron]

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[Greg Watt]

In the morning of the 19th of November, 2005, American soldiers had executed three families. And they come back. Yeah, there was about 24 bodies in the back of the vehicles. And I'm like, holy fuck, man.

[Madeline Barron]

Maybe a lot of this is imagination. None of this was near as bad as it seemed. I'm talking about what actually happened to the civilians. What he noticed was gunshots. Most of them. A gunshot in the head or in the chest.

[Namak Khoshnau]

Shots? Yes.

[Madeline Barron]

They died this way.

[Namak Khoshnau]

To me, they were enemy combatants.

[Madeline Barron]

Were they 100% enemy combatants?

[Namak Khoshnau]

I don't know.

[Madeline Barron]

They lost one of the most loved guys in the company. In their eyes, you know it's justified. Not in my eyes. In your eyes, what would that be? Sounds like murder, right? There were six Marines involved in the shootings at the White Car and in the houses on November 19, 2005 in Haditha. You don't have to keep track of all of them now, but I want to tell you a little bit about them. The leader of the squad was Sergeant Frank Woodrich. Woodrich was from Connecticut. He'd been an honor roll student and a theater guy in high school. There's a picture of him in his local paper rehearsing a lead role for a performance of Our Town. Wouterich had signed up for the Marines when he was 17, so young that his parents had to co sign his enlistment papers. He later said he chose the Marines because it was prestigious. Wouterich was now 25. He'd never been to war before. But most of the Marines we spoke with described him as a good squad leader, but level headed and reserved.

[Namak Khoshnau]

Like, he was quiet, but a good dude.

[Madeline Barron]

Then there was Corporal Hector Salinas, who was Woodrich's right hand man. Salinas is definitely salty as fuck. And I'm meaning this in a good way. I mean, he was experienced and definitely would probably have not taken any shit over there. One of the most junior members of the squad was Private First Class Umberto Mendoza.

[Namak Khoshnau]

Mendoza, what was he like?

[Madeline Barron]

Pretty quiet, I guess.

[Namak Khoshnau]

Yeah, never gave us a hard time. He did what I was told.

[Madeline Barron]

Then there was Corporal Sonic Delacruz. Haditha was his third deployment to Iraq. That dude loved the he Fucking loved the Marine Corps. Whenever you would talk to about it, he would be like, really intense about it. He's like, yeah, fuck it. Yeah, this in the Marine Corps, I'd love this place. Out of all the Marines involved in the shootings, the one that people remembered the most was a lance corporal named Justin Sharrit. The squad's gunner. Sherritt was a veteran of the battle of Fallujah, the one who sometimes wore a patch that said Punisher. He was just a cool guy. He was that cool guy that you.

[Namak Khoshnau]

Wanted to hang out with.

[Madeline Barron]

What did he like to do for fun?

[Namak Khoshnau]

Well, fuck, I wasn't dating him.

[Madeline Barron]

I mean, shit. Oh, my God. Sherit was. He was a goofball. He was very much into the pop punk. So, like the sum 41, blink 182. Like, that was his shtick. He loved that Stu.

[Namak Khoshnau]

He was always that one guy.

[Madeline Barron]

If someone was having a bad day, he'd come in, do something really, really stupid, and then you'd forget you're having a bad day. He had strapped like a mattress to the front of himself and the back of himself and jumped off the third story. What? Yeah. So he would do stuff like that or like this contest that Sharrott challenged some Marine buddies to one day. Check it out, Aunt Jemima. Fucking syrup drinking contest. A syrup drinking contest. Found this video on share. It's YouTube.

[Namak Khoshnau]

You guys ready to do it? On a count of three, tap together.

[Madeline Barron]

We roll.

[Namak Khoshnau]

One, two, three, go.

[Madeline Barron]

Yeah. And then there was Lance Corporal Steven Tatum, a tall, lanky Marine from Oklahoma, also a Fallujah veteran. We asked so many people about him, and almost no one could remember a single thing. Which was odd to me, given what I would end up learning later about Tatum's role in the killings. When our producer, Raymond Tungakar, asked a Marine named Joshua Palmer about Tatum, what kind of guy was he? It took Palmer a really. He was really trying to remember back. Give me a second. Really. He was very.

[Namak Khoshnau]

He.

[Madeline Barron]

He was long time to come up with anything. He wasn't really a dick. I liked him. These six men were all pretty different, but they would forever be connected by their actions. On November 19, 2000, after the killings. Later that night, these six Marines returned to their base at the school, by some accounts, the mood was somber. They just lost their friend. And squad mate Lance Corporal Miguel Terrazas. Captain Lucas McConnell gathered his Marines and told them to keep their heads up, that they'd done the right thing that day. No one seemed to ask the six Marines many questions about the Other people killed that day. The 24 men, women, and children. And then, as best I can tell, the six Marines just continued their deployment. Life for the Marines in Hiditha really didn't seem to change. They kept patrolling, searching houses, hanging out at the base. But then one day, three months after the killings in February 2006, an army colonel showed up in Haditha and asked to speak to the six Marines. The colonel's name was Gregory Watt, and he was heading the military's first investigation into what had happened in Haditha. He'd been sent in after military higher ups saw the video with the footage that Khalid Salman Rasif had had filmed. The video that suggested that something very wrong had happened. Now these six Marines were being brought, one by one, into a room to tell Colonel Watt their story of what had happened on November 19. This is season three of in the Dark, an investigative podcast from the New Yorker. This season is about the killing of 24 men, women, and children by US Marines in Haditha, Iraq. It's a story not just about the killings themselves, but also about the failure of the US Military to bring the men responsible for them to justice. Episode 4 what they Saw Gregory Watt, the man who headed the first investigation into what happened in Haditha, is retired now. As far as I know, he's never given an interview about what the six Marines told him. I couldn't find a solid phone number for him, so I decided to just drive to his house to see if he would talk to me. All right, so I am on my way to interview Gregory Watt, and I am going on a little bit of a road trip. Driving to Watts house turned out to be more difficult than I expected. He lives in a really remote part of West Virginia. So remote my phone stopped working. I have little to no phone service. My maps were wrong. Yeah, I don't know about this. Some of the roads weren't really roads. Excuse me, ma'am. I'm sorry to bother you. I think I might be lost. A woman walking down the street gestured to a hill, told me to go that way. Once they named all these places anymore, I don't have. After nearly nine hours of this, finally.

[Namak Khoshnau]

Aha.

[Madeline Barron]

I found it. Hello? Hi. Hi. I'm looking for Mr. Watt. That's my husband. Oh, hi. My name is Madeline. I'm a reporter and I'm doing a project. After all that. No, he might be here next week. Watt wasn't home. Oh, okay. Shoot.

[Namak Khoshnau]

Yeah.

[Madeline Barron]

Okay. Can I leave my card? Sure. I'll give him your card and he'll give you A call. Okay, that sounds great.

[Namak Khoshnau]

Yeah.

[Madeline Barron]

Thank you. He'll give you a call. Thanks so much. One of my least favorite phrases to hear as a reporter.

[Namak Khoshnau]

Have a good day.

[Madeline Barron]

You, too. Well, that was disappointing, but a few weeks later, I got a voicemail.

[Greg Watt]

Dear Ms. Barron, this is Greg Watt, and I'm returning your call. I believe I heard you that professional courtesy since you attempted to track me down in pretty rural West Virginia. I will share with you, though, that I am not a fan of the New Yorker or investigative journalism, so I'm probably really not interested in your project. However, I will listen to you if you want to engage me once again. Anyway, thank you.

[Madeline Barron]

Okay, I am going to call back Colonel Watt, who just left me a voicemail. Sounds like he doesn't like the New Yorker where I work, and he doesn't like investigative reporters, which is what I am. So. Here we go.

[Greg Watt]

Hello?

[Madeline Barron]

Hi, Mr. Watt?

[Greg Watt]

Yes, speaking.

[Madeline Barron]

Hi, this is Madeline Barron calling you back. Hi.

[Greg Watt]

How are you doing today?

[Madeline Barron]

Good. How about you?

[Greg Watt]

Good.

[Madeline Barron]

Great. Well, I wanted to. The reason why I drove out there to talk to you is that I'm working on a project that looks at the Haditha case. And as part of that, I've been trying. I wanted to talk to Watt about his investigation. But despite being impressed by the lengths I'd gone to find him, he was, as he had promised in his voicemail, not all that interested.

[Greg Watt]

Again, I'm not necessarily. You know, I don't know what's to be gained by this investigative journalism. I mean, what band aids do you want to rip? I mean, this is pretty hurtful in the first place. Lots of people's careers were destroyed as a result of this. You know, and I will tell you, you know, quite frankly, you know, it bothers me that Americans either misbehaved or, you know, conducted themselves outside the rules of engagement, potentially. But, you know, in the long run, today, it doesn't make a difference.

[Madeline Barron]

Gregory Watt, the man who was the first to investigate this alleged war crime, was telling me that none of this really matters anymore. What he talked about instead was this whole other thing.

[Greg Watt]

And I will tell you, because this isn't the first time that I have observed Iraqis that were killed in combat. And the family was more interested in the salacial payments.

[Madeline Barron]

Watt was talking about the payments that the military made to the families of the dead. The money that Khalid had collected for his relatives. $2,500 for each person who'd been killed.

[Greg Watt]

Their values are not the same as yours and mine, Madeline. So that just Leads. That just leads to my hesitancy, you know, to continue this conversation.

[Madeline Barron]

But talking about, like, the people whose family members were killed, are you saying that they're kind of in it for the money? Is that what you're saying?

[Greg Watt]

Not at all. They are incredibly distraught, just like you or I would be, if any one of our family members were killed.

[Madeline Barron]

Hmm. Yeah. I mean, I feel like you asked earlier, kind of like, what difference does it make? I think probably it does still make a difference. It definitely does still make a difference to the survivors of the people who were killed that day.

[Greg Watt]

It may. I'm not going to debate that fact with you.

[Madeline Barron]

It may.

[Greg Watt]

You know, my experience leads me to believe that this occurred 2006, 2007. No, it's now 20, 23. I think they've moved on.

[Madeline Barron]

Why do you think that?

[Greg Watt]

I think it's human nature.

[Madeline Barron]

Even if your whole family was killed?

[Greg Watt]

I believe so. Especially in that region of the world.

[Madeline Barron]

What do you mean?

[Greg Watt]

They have different values than we do. Okay. They're more concerned about the living than those that have passed.

[Madeline Barron]

I think, to the. I've talked to some of the survivors, and for them, it's really important to know as much as possible about how their family members were killed and then also why no one was ever punished.

[Greg Watt]

I don't have the answers to that.

[Madeline Barron]

So that was Watt on the Iraqis. But when Watt talked about the six Marines who were involved in the killings, the people he was in charge of investigating, he was more sympathetic.

[Greg Watt]

They were all young Marines. They were all professional. They were all. You know, they did their best to present themselves. I mean, Madeleine, these are all young kids, and you have to keep in mind that the context of whatever really transpired in Haditha was the outcome of a Marine convoy being ambushed and Marines being killed. Those kids, their emotions were high. Their fear was high. You know, our general population, who hasn't had to live or operate like that, does not understand that. You know, it's just it. War is a very complex and confusing thing. It was for those young Marines that day, and it is still today. You know, it's not neat and clean like our general population and your readers want it to be. And, you know, frankly, I believe I gave the Marines the benefit of the doubt every opportunity that I could. And, I mean, the court standings are the final results.

[Madeline Barron]

Do you think this, though, crossed a line?

[Greg Watt]

You know, my opinion doesn't matter.

[Madeline Barron]

Yeah. I mean, did you think that a war crime had been committed?

[Greg Watt]

I don't have any opinion on that.

[Madeline Barron]

As for what the six Marines had actually told Watt about what happened that day. Watt didn't want to get into that, the whole ripping off the band aid thing. Fortunately for me, I didn't have to rely on Watt's willingness to talk about the past because I had the actual statements the Marines had given to him all those years ago. We'd gotten them from one of our lawsuits against the military. There were six of these statements, one from each shooter. They were short typed up, each one signed by the Marine who gave it. And these statements offered the very first accounts from the shooters themselves of what had happened that day. Day what they said after the break. Hi, it's Madeline. I'm going to be honest with you. This season almost didn't happen. But we were able to report season three to its conclusion and bring it to you because we joined the New Yorker at inthedark. We believe that investigative reporting can lead to real change. That's why I'm asking you to become a New Yorker subscriber. The New Yorker brings you not just in the dark, but amazing nonfiction stories from the best writers and journalists working today. People like Rachel Aviv and Patrick Radden Keefe and Ronan Farrow. The New Yorker relies on subscribers. You literally make our work possible. So please go to newyorker.com dark and become a subscriber today. A subscription starts at just a dollar a week, and it gives you unlimited access to everything the New Yorker publishes. And of course, you get a tote bag. That's newyorker.com D. The story that the Marines told to Colonel Watt is vague and a bit contradictory. Not everyone describes things the same way. There's a lot left unresolved in these statements, perhaps in part because it doesn't seem that Watt grilled these Marines all that hard. Watt himself even later testified that his approach was grandfatherly. And Watt was at a bit of a disadvantage because he didn't have access to any of the photos that had been taken after the killings. He said he'd actually been told the photos had been destroyed. But in general, the account of the six Marines goes like this. What the Marines told Colonel Watt was that they were under attack that day. They had to fight their way from one house to another to find and kill the enemy. It started when the IED exploded and killed their fellow Marine, Lance Corporal Miguel Terrazas. Close to the site of the explosion, there was a white car on the road. The Marines had motioned to the car to pull over, and it did. But then the men inside got out. Some of The Marines said the men started running, so the Marines shot them. While all that was happening, the Marines were also starting to take fire, maybe from a house overlooking the road. So the squad leader, Sergeant Wouterich, and several of his men headed to that house. On the way, Wouterich told them, shoot first, ask questions later. They went into that house and heard the sounds of AK47s racking. And the Marines opened fire on insurgents inside. Someone ran out of the house, so the Marines chased him to another house. But the Marines were taking fire from that house too. Some of them went inside. One Marine told Watt. It was dusty in there and hard to see. They shot more people than left. And then, according to one of the Marines, some of the men went back to the first house. They thought they hadn't finished clearing it the first time. They went inside and threw a grenade and fired into one of the rooms and saw the bodies of dead insurgents lying on the ground. Then a break. The Marines went up on a rooftop to survey the area. A moment of relative quiet. But then, according to one of the Marines, they started getting fired on again, this time from yet another house. Some of them ran over to check it out. They went inside a house and were confronted by four insurgents. One of the insurgents was pointing an AK47 right at them. A Marine fired at the insurgents and killed them all. So much combat, so many dead insurgents. What none of the Marines mentioned in any of their statements to Colonel Watt was shooting women or children. Instead, what they described sounded like an epic fight, a multi hour battle against insurgents who were attacking them at nearly every turn. That's what the Marines said happened. Colonel Watt did recommend that the military bring in criminal investigators to look into the incident further. And he recommended that the Marines get some more training. But he seemed to mostly accept what the Marines were telling him. And this version of events might have been the only version that anyone ever heard, except for one very important fact, something I haven't mentioned yet. The Marines weren't the only ones who could describe what happened that day. There were witnesses. I want to go back to Khalid Salman Rasif. On the day after the killings, he's brought the bodies of his family back home and buried them. Fifteen people from his family alone. But two people are missing. Khalid's niece Iman and his nephew Abdul Rahman, two of his sister Asmaa's kids.

[Namak Khoshnau]

I ask myself, where is Iman? Where is Abd al Rahman? Where is they?

[Madeline Barron]

Khalid figured their bodies had been destroyed in a fire that had started in Asma's house that Day.

[Namak Khoshnau]

And we thought, Iman Abd al Rahman, there is no bodies because they birthed.

[Madeline Barron]

Some thought they were dead.

[Namak Khoshnau]

Yes, yes.

[Madeline Barron]

We thought that the family brought the dead back from the hospital and buried them. Afterward. When Khalid and his family were gathered to mourn, a man came up to him. The man said that he'd been arrested by the Marines the day of the killings. While he was being held at the base, he'd heard two children, a boy and a girl.

[Namak Khoshnau]

Two kids and they crying, crying as.

[Madeline Barron]

They were loaded onto an American helicopter. And were you thinking at that point, maybe those children are Iman and Abdul Rahman? They felt the first spark of hope that the children were still alive. It was like a spark of hope came back to the family. He had to go to see if the children is really Iman and Abd al Rahman. Khalid took off running to the American base. When he got there, he found an Iraqi guard posted on the rooftop. Khalid called up to him, hey, hey.

[Namak Khoshnau]

Can I talk with you? He said, no, go, go. And I told him, please, can I talk with anyone from America? I am from the families they killed yesterday. Please, can you receive someone to talk him?

[Madeline Barron]

An American Marine and his Iraqi interpreter came down to speak with Khalid. The Marine was Major Dana Hyatt, the civil affairs officer for the battalion, the guy whose job it was to win over Iraqi hearts and minds. Khalid said, this was actually the first time the two of them had met.

[Namak Khoshnau]

And I told them, I am Khalid Salman. I am a member from city council.

[Madeline Barron]

I'm a lawyer, I'm a member of the city council.

[Namak Khoshnau]

Major Hayat said, oh, city council, where are you? Why you don't working? I don't. Please, I don't coming to discuss this for you.

[Madeline Barron]

Khalid said to Hyatt, forget about the council. I'm here to talk about something else.

[Namak Khoshnau]

I am coming to asking. When the American forces killed my families, we lose two kids.

[Madeline Barron]

Two kids. Khalid told Hyatt, a girl and a boy.

[Namak Khoshnau]

He said, yes, they injured yes.

[Madeline Barron]

Hyatt said, those were the kids that had been at the base. They'd been injured in the attack and flown out to a hospital in Baghdad for treatment, but they were alive. The children's aunt, who lived in Baghdad, went to the hospital and found both kids there. Their relatives brought them back to Hiditha and they reunited with what was left of their family. Abdurrahman and Iman weren't the only people who survived the killings. Inside the houses that day, there were three others, five survivors in total, one of whom was just a baby. These people were Survivors of a tragedy. But they were also something else. They were eyewitnesses. They'd seen their family, their parents, their brothers and sisters shot to death. They'd seen what the marines had done. I had no idea if they would want to talk about what happened, but I figured the least I could do was ask. I wanted to go to Haditha myself to try to talk to the survivors. But when we consulted with security experts, they said it would be too risky because an American woman traveling on the long road to Haditha would be at high risk of kidnapping. And even getting to Haditha was difficult and required expertise. So he knew he would need to send someone else, someone who could travel there more safely, Someone with experience navigating the roads and handling the security situation in Iraq.

[Namak Khoshnau]

Hello.

[Madeline Barron]

Hi. Great to see you.

[Namak Khoshnau]

Thank you very much. Can you hear me?

[Madeline Barron]

Yeah. Can you hear us okay?

[Namak Khoshnau]

Yes.

[Madeline Barron]

His name is Namakh Khoshnau.

[Namak Khoshnau]

Yeah. So it's Namak Khoshnau. It's a K, H means, but I don't know if you can try to pronounce it.

[Madeline Barron]

Namak is a documentary filmmaker with the BBC. He was born in Kurdistan, but he lives in London now.

[Namak Khoshnau]

I'm Kurdish, but I'm from Iraq. So for me, I'm Iraqi. Even though I love Britain, I always see myself as a guest here. So I always think of going back.

[Madeline Barron]

I first heard of Namak when I watched an incredibly beautiful documentary he made called Iraq a State of Mind. It's about how Iraqis are struggling to deal with the trauma of years of war. If we were going to try to talk to people who'd witnessed some of the worst violence imaginable, the deaths of their own parents, I wanted to be sure that the person we worked with had experience with those kinds of situations, and Namak definitely did. When I explained the story to Namak to see if he was interested, the fact that so much time has passed, nobody's talking about this right away. He was on board.

[Namak Khoshnau]

I mean, that could be interesting investigation bit for us to go and find out. You know, I always think that this could have been me. What if this was my brother or my sister or somebody else? So the way I see it is that even though I have never met those people, I'm very well connected to them.

[Madeline Barron]

Namak gathered a small crew, and In March of 2022, he got on a plane and flew to Baghdad on his way to try to interview the survivors.

[Namak Khoshnau]

We have just arrived in Baghdad airport. It's quarter to nine local time.

[Madeline Barron]

He was picked up Outside the airport by a security advisor.

[Namak Khoshnau]

Alhamdulillah.

[Madeline Barron]

At a team meeting the next morning, they went over the plan to drive to Haditha.

[Namak Khoshnau]

Okay, so it's a team brief. Everybody's here. I'm nothing because there's a lot of smoke here. The four of you guys smoking, It's a little bit open the window or to turn a fun or something. So the first thing I want to tell you is that my mother said, you do not let me get killed.

[Madeline Barron]

Insha'Allah.

[Namak Khoshnau]

So what do we expect? What are the threats?

[Madeline Barron]

The security advisor reviewed the threats. Right. So sleeping cells, sleeper cells, militias. Militias and the ISIS? The IEDs, roadside IEDs, the mortars or rockets.

[Namak Khoshnau]

So can you keep us safe of all this?

[Madeline Barron]

Of course.

[Namak Khoshnau]

Great. We're going to leave it here. So inshallah, tomorrow we will make our way.

[Madeline Barron]

The next day, Namak and his crew, the security advisor, two drivers, a sound guy, and because Namak's native language is actually Kurdish, an interpreter named Haider Ahmed. All set out.

[Namak Khoshnau]

We are on our way to Haditha.

[Madeline Barron]

The road from Baghdad to Haditha is long. It passes through towns still scarred by years of war.

[Namak Khoshnau]

So 15, 20 minutes ago we passed Fallujah and now we are in Ramadi and the houses are still damaged.

[Madeline Barron]

Different sections of the road are controlled by different militias and you need a military escort to move from sector to sector.

[Namak Khoshnau]

We've been escorted by a military pickup to.

[Madeline Barron]

Gentlemen, there are checkpoints everywhere.

[Namak Khoshnau]

Checkpoint number what, five, six already? No, I saw it. There's another one coming now. Look.

[Abdulrahman Walid]

BBC.

[Namak Khoshnau]

You want my. My BBC.

[Abdulrahman Walid]

Iraqi. You have Iraqi?

[Namak Khoshnau]

Yes.

[Madeline Barron]

At one checkpoint, the guards singled out Namak for questioning.

[Namak Khoshnau]

They. They only asked me, why not you guys? Why did they only ask me Your.

[Abdulrahman Walid]

Hair and your style? Your hair, your long hair. So you look like. Not from here.

[Madeline Barron]

After that, for the rest of the drive, Namak wore a hat.

[Namak Khoshnau]

We just have to do what they say and hopefully we will arrive in Hadithah soon.

[Madeline Barron]

Finally, after more than eight hours, Namak and his team reach Haditha. You can't just drive into Haditha. The entrance to the city is controlled predictably by a checkpoint. There are soldiers with machine guns and guards with bomb sniffing dogs checking cars for explosives. This tight security is a holdover from the years when Haditha was trying to keep out insurgents and later trying to keep out ISIS. Back in 2014, years after the marines had left, ISIS swept through the region. The group took over almost all of Anbar province, but not Haditha. Haditha residents fought back. They killed any ISIS Members they could find in the city. And they essentially walled Haditha off. They dug trenches around the perimeter and blocked the roads to get into the city. You had to be escorted in by a trusted resident of Haditha who could vouch for you. And that's still the case today.

[Namak Khoshnau]

We're held outside of Haditha checkpoint. We're waiting as we need to make a reference.

[Madeline Barron]

So Namak and his team were waiting at the checkpoint for the person who would be vouching for them.

[Namak Khoshnau]

And here he is.

[Madeline Barron]

That person was Khalid Salman Rasif. Khalid showed up, as he always did, wearing a suit. Namak later told me that when he first met Khalid, he felt kind of silly because he was so disheveled from the long drive. Khalid was so put together. Khalid drove Namak around town.

[Namak Khoshnau]

It's a beautiful district. A lot of palm trees. Is it famous for palm trees, this place? Yeah.

[Madeline Barron]

Yes, yes. Showed him Hadithah. It is good.

[Namak Khoshnau]

It's very good.

[Madeline Barron]

Took him to his house, introduced him to his family.

[Namak Khoshnau]

What's your name?

[Madeline Barron]

Waqqas.

[Namak Khoshnau]

Waqas. And your name? They're very cute. Thank you for the tea.

[Madeline Barron]

Nikhala took Namak to see the mayor who got worked up talking about the killings.

[Namak Khoshnau]

His Excellency is very, very angry. What does he think? If this was the other way around, what would have happened? If an Iraqi soldier killed 24Americans, what would have happened?

[Madeline Barron]

We would be nuked, said the. Wiped from the face of the earth, said Khaled.

[Namak Khoshnau]

That's a very good answer. I hope not, but yeah, I know what you mean. Well, that tells the story. I'm afraid that.

[Madeline Barron]

Namik was in Haditha for over a week. During that time, Khalid was busy talking to his family, trying to arrange interviews with them. One day, when Khalid and Namak were talking, Khalid got a phone call.

[Namak Khoshnau]

Please respond to your phone. It's okay. We can wait.

[Madeline Barron]

Okay. Okay.

[Namak Khoshnau]

Hello? Sorry. It is Safa.

[Madeline Barron]

It was from one of the survivors.

[Namak Khoshnau]

What did she say? She told me.

[Madeline Barron]

She was ready to talk. And another survivor was too.

[Namak Khoshnau]

Abdurrahman. Hello. How are you?

[Madeline Barron]

These two people who'd agreed to talk were children at the time of the killings. Now they were adults. Adults who wanted to tell their stories for one very specific reason. To try to get justice. Justice for their dead parents, for their dead brothers and sisters, aunts and uncles, grandmothers and grandfathers. Their stories. After the break.

[Namak Khoshnau]

You come to the.

[Madeline Barron]

New Yorker Radio Hour for conversations that go deeper with people you really want to hear from, whether it's Bruce Springsteen or Questlove. Or Olivia Rodrigo, Liz Cheney, or the godfather of artificial intelligence Geoffrey Hinton, or some of my extraordinarily well informed colleagues at the New Yorker. So join us every week on the New Yorker Radio Hour wherever you listen to podcasts. The two survivors Namak spoke to while he was in Haditha are named Abdulrahman Walid and Safa Yunus. Abdul Rahman is Khalid's nephew, the son of Khalid's sister Asma. He's one of the children who'd been injured in the attack and helicoptered to Baghdad. Abdul rahman was just 6 years old when his family was killed. He's now 25 and in college studying computer engineering. Safa is also a relative of Khalid's. Safa was 11 at the time of the killings. Today she's 30.

[Abdulrahman Walid]

She said, like the reason I came to here to to do that interview, to get the truth out and to reopen the the case again, to get the justice is everything and I don't need my my family blood going for nothing.

[Madeline Barron]

Back before the killings, Safa and Abdul Rahman live close to each other, almost next door, just about 100 meters away from where the IED would later go off.

[Abdulrahman Walid]

She said, like a normal life is full of happiness, full of love.

[Madeline Barron]

Their families were their whole world. They had brothers and sisters and grandparents who lived with them. Safa and Abdul Rahman's parents tried to shelter their children from the war. Most of the time they tried to keep them inside the house and they told them to stay away from the Marines. And Safa did exactly that. She was scared of the Marines and the big weapons they carried. When she did go out, she stayed close to her father.

[Abdulrahman Walid]

She said, like, yes, I feel a fear, but when I was beside my father, it's different. I feel safe.

[Madeline Barron]

But Abdul Rahman would sometimes sneak out with his younger brother so they could find the Marines, get candy from them, even though their mother kept catching them and ordering them back inside. Abdurrahman doesn't remember much about his family anymore. He was just six when they were killed. He remembers his father taking him to the mosque on Fridays for prayer. He has a faint memory of his mother's cooking, of the taste of biryani. Abdul Rahman and Safa don't often talk about what happened on the day of the killings, but they have talked about it before. A long time ago. In 2006, in the months after their family members were killed, they were both interviewed by investigators with the US Military. They later gave depositions. Those interviews were difficult, but the family felt like they were necessary for the military to have the evidence they needed to prosecute the Marines. I have transcripts and summaries of their interviews and statements from back then. I also have statements from 2006 from two other members of Abdelrahman's family who also survived the killings and who declined to be interviewed. One of them was an adult at the time. I say all of this because I'm not just relying on these two interviews years later with people who were children at the time for an account of what happened. Memory, of course, is slippery, but what Safa and Abdul Rahman are about to say is supported not only by their own statements at the time, but also by the statements of the other survivors.

[Namak Khoshnau]

Do you remember the day?

[Madeline Barron]

No.

[Namak Khoshnau]

Can you tell us about this? If it's okay with you.

[Madeline Barron]

The story they're about to tell starts with 6 year old Abdul Rahman sound asleep on the morning of the killings. He was at home with his family. There were 11 of them at the house that day. Abdul Rahman, his parents, his siblings, his grandparents, an aunt and two uncles. When all of a sudden, did you.

[Namak Khoshnau]

Hear the explosion and what was the sound like?

[Madeline Barron]

Huge sound followed by gunfire.

[Abdulrahman Walid]

There is a gunfire in the street. Talks to the Shara racing.

[Namak Khoshnau]

Shara racing.

[Abdulrahman Walid]

The gunfire on the main street.

[Madeline Barron]

The IED had exploded near Abdelrahman's family's house and killed a Marine, Lance Corporal Tarazas. The Marines had then opened fire on five people who'd gotten out of a white car and killed all of them. And now a small group of Marines led by the squad leader, Sergeant Frank Witterich, was heading toward Abdelrahman's house. Abdelrahman's father was in a room in the front of the house when suddenly there was a loud noise at the door. Sergeant Mudirich and his Marines had arrived. What Abdul Rahman described about what happened next was not at all how the Marines had made it seem in their statements. To Colonel Watt. This was not a gunfight with insurgents, not a vicious battle with shooting back and forth. Abdulrahman described only one group of people shooting the Marines. He said there were no insurgents inside his house. It was just his family. The Marines busted down the door of the house and came inside. Abdul Rahman couldn't see them. He was in another room, but he heard gunshots. Then the gunfire stopped and the house was quiet. The Marines had left. Abdul Rahman and some of his family members waited a little while, then they went to see what had happened. Abdul Rahman found his father in the front room lying in a pool of blood. His father had Been shot to death.

[Abdulrahman Walid]

He said. I was crying.

[Madeline Barron]

Abdelrahman's grandmother was also lying dead nearby in the hallway, two of Abdelrahman's relatives, his aunt Hiba and Uncle Rashid, decided to make a run for it. His aunt took his baby sister with her. His aunt survived, later gave a statement about all this. But his uncle was later shot to death by Marines. Outside. Everyone else was gathered in the living room. There were six of them in there. Abdulrahman, his mother Asma, his eight year old sister Iman, his four year old brother Abdullah, his other uncle and his grandfather. Abdul Rahman and his sister were sitting on the floor of the living room near their mother and four year old brother Abdallah, their uncle was near them too. Abdelrahman remembers their grandfather lying on a bed. Then all of a sudden, the Marines were from his position in the corner, huddled near his mother and siblings. Abdul Rahman saw Marines enter the living room and begin to shoot. They shot at his grandfather as he lay in bed. One of the Marines threw a grenade and it exploded. One of the grandfather's legs blasted off his body from the force of the explosion. Just a note here. Another survivor of the killing, Abdul Rahman's aunt, recalls the Marines killing the grandfather earlier when they were in the house the first time.

[Namak Khoshnau]

How did the Marine seem?

[Abdulrahman Walid]

They are angry and try. They want just to shoot.

[Madeline Barron]

What happened in the next few minutes inside this room is something Abdulrahman no longer remembers clearly, maybe never did. Even his statements from back then are vague. He remembers his mother Asma and his four year old brother Abdullah being in the room near him. But as for what happened next, he can't say for sure. At some point he felt a warm sensation. He'd been hit.

[Abdulrahman Walid]

He said. Like I didn't feel it at that time. She was really hot.

[Madeline Barron]

Have Abdul Rahman's medical records. They say he had a gunshot wound to his back. Eventually, the Marines left. Abdul Rahman called out for his family, for his mother, his brother, his uncle, his grandfather. None of them answered. Then his 8 year old sister Iman responded.

[Abdulrahman Walid]

He said, I call her Iman. She answered me. But she couldn't move because her leg was injured.

[Madeline Barron]

Iman had also been hit, maybe by shrapnel from the grenade. Abdul Rahman and his sister stayed together on the floor in the corner, bleeding next to their dead mom and brother. After the Marines left Abdelrahman's house, they headed to a house nearby. That's where 11 year old Safa Yunus lived. She was at home with her family that morning when The IED exploded outside. There were nine of them in the house together that day. Safa, her parents, her five siblings and her aunt. Safa's mother was in bed recovering from surgery. She just had her appendix removed. All of a sudden, Safa heard a knock at the door. Safa and her mother, her aunt and her siblings were all in a bedroom at the back of the house. While her father went to answer the door. From where Safa and the rest of her family were in the back bedroom. They could hear sounds, but it wasn't clear what was happening. Then a Marine appeared in the doorway of the bedroom. The bedroom where Safa was with her mother, her aunt and her siblings, her sisters, ages 15, 10, 5 and 3, and her brother Mohammed, age 8. The Marine was holding a grenade. He looked at Safa and her family but didn't say a word. Then he threw the grenade inside the room, closed the door and left. The bedroom was small and Safa and her family were obviously terrified. Her aunt told them, come on, come here. Got them all to move as far away from the grenade as they could go, go.

[Abdulrahman Walid]

I mean stay away from it, from what that thinks, the grenade, stay away from the grenade.

[Madeline Barron]

Most of Safa's siblings huddle together on the bed with their mom on top of a blanket.

[Abdulrahman Walid]

So she is gathering all of us on the bed.

[Madeline Barron]

But the grenade never went off. And after a little while, they couldn't hear the Marines anymore. Safa's aunt opened the bedroom door and peered down the hallway. She saw Safa's father lying dead on the floor. She started screaming. Then a Marine appeared in the doorway. Again. The Marine didn't say anything. He just held up his gun and started shooting. There was a space between the bed and the wall and Safa and her older sister Noor quickly wedged themselves into that space to hide. While Safa and Noor were hiding, they could hear gunshots. They seemed to be non stop. But from her hiding spot, Safa couldn't see much of what was happening. Safa and Noor tried to be as still as possible, but Safa said she assumes the Marines must have figured out where they were hiding because at one point a Marine lowered his gun, aimed it under the bed and started firing.

[Abdulrahman Walid]

Me and Noor, we were under the bed. He get his rifle in the bed and start shooting at us when we are in the Dibat and start shooting to me and Noor.

[Madeline Barron]

The shots missed Safa and then the shooting stopped and the room went quiet. Safa turned to her sister Noor, the one she'd been hiding with to tell her to come out. They've gone. Noor didn't respond. Safa reached over, touched her hand to Noor's head. Get up. Get up. But still Noor didn't answer. And then Safa realized her hand was covered in blood. Noor had been shot in the head. Safa got up and looked at the bed. The bed where her mom and her other siblings had been huddled together. She saw her 10 year old sister Seba dead. Seba was covered in the blood of her other sister. 5 year old Zaynab was also dead. Safa could tell that her youngest sister Aisha, who was just three, was also dead. But she couldn't see her face. Safa looked at her mother. She was lying dead on her back, shot in the head. Her dead children lying all around her. Safa looked across the room and saw her aunt shot dead on the floor. Then Safa heard a scream. It was her eight year old brother, Mohammed. Safa saw that his hands had been shot. He'd lost his fingers. Safa tried to stop her brother from bleeding. Her mother had a towel on her stomach from a recent surgery. Safa grabbed the towel, tried to wrap it around her brother's wounds. She told him, be quiet. They'll come back and kill us. Then she fainted. When Safa woke up, she was confused. She said she didn't know where to go or what to do or what time it was. The room was now completely quiet. Her brother Mohammed was later found dead on the bed, curled up next to his mom. Safa got up and walked out of her house. On her way out, she passed her father's body next to the kitchen door. She walked to her uncle Yassine's house. She was covered in blood. She told him the Americans killed everyone. Safa and Abdurrahman have had to grow up without parents. Abdul Rahman also lost his brother and Safa lost all of her siblings. She was the only one who survived in her entire family. Safa said in those early days she couldn't imagine what her life would be like without her mom and dad, her brother and sisters. After her family was killed, she moved in with her grandparents. She said they took good care of her. She was eventually able to build a life of her own. She got married and now has her own family. Abdul Rahman was raised by his uncles. Namak asked if he had any objects from his family that would help him remember them. No. Abdelrahman said nothing. Namak tried to ask Abdurrahman about how the killings of his family affected his life. Abd al Rahman declined to answer the question. After the Marines left Safa's house, they still weren't done. They searched a few empty houses. They went up on a rooftop for a while, and then they went into one last house. The story of that house Next time on in the Dark. If you want to listen to episode five right now ad free, you can do that by subscribing to the New Yorker. Subscribers will get all of our remaining episodes ad free a week early. Go to new yorker.com dark to subscribe and listen. Now in the Dark is reported and produced by me, Madeline Barron, managing producer Samara Freemark, producers Natalie Jablonski and Raymond Tungakar and reporter Parker Yesko. In the Dark is edited by Catherine Winter and Willie Davidson, reporting and investigating in Iraq by BBC Arabic's Namak Hoshnaou and field producer Haider Ahmed. Additional interpreting and translation by Aya El Shakarchi. This episode was fact checked by Lucy Croning and Linnea Feldman Emerson Original music by Alison Leighton Brown Additional music by Chris Julen and Johnny Van Severns Sound design and mix by John Delore. Our theme is by Gary Meister. Our art is by Emiliano Ponzi. Art direction by Nicholas Conrad and Aviva Michaelov. FOIA legal representation from the FOIA team at Lovie and Lovie Legal review by Fabio Bertoni in the Dark was created by American Public Media and is produced by the New Yorker. Our Managing editor is Julia Rothschild. The head of Global audio for Conde Nasty is Chris Bannon. The editor of the New Yorker is David Remnick. If you have comments or story tips, you can send them to [e-mail] and make sure to follow inthedark wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Vincent Cunningham. I'm Alex Schwartz. And I'm Nomi Frye. And we're Critics at Large, the New Yorker's flagship culture podcasts. Flagship Flagship Love that. We want to invite you to a special live event that's coming right up on March 11th at the bell House in Brooklyn. We're doing a show about a classic conundrum for critics. What happens when you write a review and you get it wrong? We will be looking back at some of the classic pieces of New Yorker criticism that may some may have missed the mark. Like for example, a scathing review that declared the wizard of Oz a stinkeroo marred by eye straining Technicolor. Not a stinkeroo. Oh yes. And of course we will also talk about critics who got it right as well. So if you're in New York or if you feel like traveling, come see us live at the bell House on March 11th. You can buy [e-mail] we'll see you there.

[Abdulrahman Walid]

From PRX.